How Social Media is Shaping How We Experience Our Lives IRL

0:00from KQED. Support for KQED Podcast comes from Stanford's Master of Liberal Arts program inviting students on a part-time journey of ideas, culminating in a Stanford graduate degree. An info session will be held on October 22nd, mla.stanford.edu. Welcome to Forum, I'm Meena Kim. For all the ways we're recognizing the effects of social media on our kids, our discourse, or our attention spans, one that hasn't gotten much attention since Catherine Jesamorten is how it affects the way we make sense of the arc of our lives. In her new book, The Story of Your Life, how social media shapes the way we experience everything, Jesamorten explores the way social media has changed the way we tell stories about ourselves, into curated and color corrected versions of our history, and how we struggle to notice the impact that's having.

1:01Catherine Jesamorten writes the newsletter, Brooding for the Cut. Catherine, great to have you back on Forum. Thank you so much for having me back. So, one thing you make clear from the outset of your book is that you love social media. So, what do you love about it? Yeah, I've been a poster from the very start. I think I just find it a fun creative opportunity at its best to make people laugh, to share, just to have people know things about you that they might not otherwise know, things you like, things you find funny. I just find it a very inviting medium of expression. Yeah, and you said you are or were a poster from the start. So, talk to me about how you got to experience social media before it was algorithmically optimized for profit. When did it enter your life? Yeah, I mean, I was in college when I first started using it and I was using Friendster,

2:02which was not very long-lived precursor to Facebook. I was never really a Myspace person, but I used Friendster and I thought it was fun. That was really, there was no newsfeed. This was just where you had a profile and the whole project was kind of updating your profile. That was all you did. And then you would write little messages on your friend's wall, but there was no, nothing really real time about it because we weren't using smartphones yet. And then, I migrated to Facebook once it became available to the general public. And I found early Facebook totally fun. I found it really novel to be connecting with people from my earlier life. I just, I found it pure fun. What can I say? The groups, everything about it. Yeah, yeah. So you write about then looking back at your Instagram account, which you've had since 2012. What were your early posts like on Instagram? And how did that compare to what your life was actually like at that time?

3:03Yeah, so I joined Instagram, I think in 2012. And this was before the algorithmic feed, it was a chronological feed. And it was also before, there was quite so much brand infiltration. So it was really just people who knew each other largely. And then you would start adding some influencers. I was really telling a story about, I had little kids. And I was basically creating a persona in an amateur way. I wasn't trying to be an influencer at all. But just like I think a young mom having fun, trying to get by with two kids. And mostly I tried to make my life look fun. And because that's all I would have occurred to me to do nothing else. That was the only option. So I did that. But I was in graduate school. I had very little money. My husband and I were both really students. And I would say it was a time of stress in our life.

4:05And we were pretty isolated socially. You never would have perceived any of that from the post that I was making at that time. Yeah. I mean, which isn't unusual. Most people share their best moments or try to share the happy and good times in their life. And it's not like anyone had the right to know your struggles at the time if you didn't want to share them. But what I found so interesting is you were reflecting back on this, is that you wondered even if you had wanted to, how much of the medium would have accommodated it. What do you mean by that? Yeah. There was no possible way to be and to tell any different story I realized. Partly, you know, the fact that there are comments, right? Like, this is we take this for granted. When you make a post, people can comment on it. It invites feedback that is, I think, inhibiting it because you don't want people to pity you. Like, let's say, you know, I'm having a hard day or I want to account for my experience

5:07in a way that doesn't seem like pure success. Like maybe I want to talk about something that was hard or disappointing. The fact that there are comments mean that people are going to feel compelled to say, oh, I'm so sorry, or somehow offer, you know, some kind of sympathy, which in the context of these comments is often not really what we want. And I think for a lot of people, it's very uncomfortable to feel as though you're, you know, seeking pity. So I think it inhibits that kind of sharing because you know what kind of response it will get. Yeah. And then also the algorithms have entered at this time, right? Do you think the types of things that the platforms were rewarding were also inhibiting? Definitely. You know, I think it took us a few years to kind of learn what the platforms were, were, you know, prioritizing. But I mean, the algorithms want really easily legible content. So, you know, familiar faces, really like a picture that you can glance at and kind of

6:09understand what you're looking at pretty quickly. So that really means that there's a certain, you can't include much nuance in what you're talking about. It's actually, does it really inhibit like a more artistic, if you will, way of accounting for things. And I think, you know, we started to learn that obviously selfies and even more so like, you know, pictures where you're in a cute outfit or a bikini, if you're, you know, that's your way. Those are the types of posts that get the most engagement. And if you post something that's kind of confusing and hard to tell even once in the picture, no one is going to see it. So do you think that we started internalizing, you know, the priorities of the algorithm without maybe even noticing it? I absolutely think that. And I just think that it's because we started to see what types of posts got the most engagement and what types of posts didn't. And we're always, I think, kind of a B testing our own personas in these spaces without realizing it.

7:10I think most people who post keep almost like a kind of a mental spreadsheet about the performance of the posts that they make, whether they mean to do this or not. And I do think that over time this leads us to, you know, lean a certain direction with the way that we talk about ourselves. I think we do this absolutely without realizing it. Yeah. And now, right? I guess essentially what you're exploring is what happens when millions of people are doing this together at the same time. Yeah, exactly. Over the course of, you know, 20 years. And now this is the real, for a lot of people, especially younger people, this is the only medium that they use for everything. So, you know, they're getting their news, they're getting all their entertainment and then their personal updates and their events and everything is coming through the same feed. So, and I think it's structuring the entire thing, absolutely. And what are you noticing about how other people share themselves, right? It sounds like you've noticed that there are some pretty common narratives that people

8:13will turn to as a way to sort of narrate the story of their lives. Yeah. I mean, the theme that really came out in my research was this kind of compulsory resilience that people really feel that they have to show. So if you go through a setback, whether it's illness or a divorce or a job loss, whatever, you have to figure out a way to tell the story where you're going to be fine. Often that means not talking about it until you have kind of recovered from the hard part. And now you can talk about how, you know, you found a new partner or you're excited about your new job opportunity or whatever it is. And I think that's just so, it's such a profound part of our culture. And I think it leaves out just a huge part of human experience and like emotional capacity that is just never expressed when you're only talking about your resilience. And what are the dangers of that?

9:14Well, I mean, I think that when you are only seeing people talk about life at a particular register, it can be hard to learn because we're so social, right? Like obviously a lot of our emotions come from, you know, our minds and, you know, their physical, but also a lot of emotional expression is something that we learn through being exposed to other people expressing themselves. You know, we're like, oh, that's a way you can, you know, express sadness. You know, we influence each other. And I think that when you are exposed to people experiencing ambivalence, experiencing just these very natural human, human, human experiences, you know, disappointment, just a feeling of like, well, you know, just another ordinary day, like nothing really special here. You start to lose sight of the fact that that is what life mostly is about. It's mostly about ambivalence. It's mostly about these kinds of just, you know, peaks and valleys, but nothing's spectacular.

10:18And I think it can create an alienating sense of disappointment in your own life if your life isn't spectacular. And you know, people talk about the comparison trap, right? Where you see these people with their beautiful lives and you're like, why don't I have that? I don't think this is exactly the same thing. I think this is really about losing the ability to express the emotions at all. We're talking with Katherine Jesermortton, who's written a new book called The Story of Your Life, How Social Media Shapes the Way we Experience Everything. Unless there's, have you noticed or felt the kinds of effects that Katherine is talking about? Do you yourself feel like you have developed a persona or a brand that you're beholden to or have you noticed friends or family posting in that way? You can email forumakqd.org, find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram, MAKQED forum, call us at 866-733-6786. Katherine, do you find the effects? Go beyond like people who post, meaning lurkers or people who just don't post that they too

11:20can internalize sort of this narrative of what's desirable and acceptable and possible. Yeah. I totally do. I think that we're seeing that fewer people are posting now. I think there's not any dip in people using social media. I think it's as strong as ever if not stronger, but fewer people are making posts. But I think that the experience of being a lurker is very much to be influenced by this is the water you're swimming in. This is where you're seeing all the information about culture coming through. I think it's enormously influential. I also think we see some of this influence in broader conversations at the social level. I'm thinking about climate change, and I'm thinking about communities that are affected by disasters, like wildfires or floods. There's this kind of knee-jerk reaction of, we're going to be fine, we're going to build back, we're going to come back, and we're going to be better than ever.

12:23To me, this is a direct echo of this kind of compulsory resilience that we have developed on social media over the last 20 years. And I just think that people don't know how else to express themselves. I think it's like the only option. And I do think if you think about that, when you really kind of zoom out, I think that's a really interesting thing. We'll have more with Katherine, Jason Martin, after the break. This is Forum. The word for forum comes from San Francisco Opera. This fall, you're cordially invited to the most chaotic wedding of the century. The Wiley Valley, Figaro, and Clever Housemaid Susana are excited to tie the knot. But the arrogant head of the house, Cont Amaviva, is determined to get in the way. Schemes and disguises abound as a lovable couple pull every trick in the book in order to exchange their marriage vows. Don't miss Mozart's beloved romantic comedy The Marriage of Figaro. October 31st through November 29th, sfopra.com

13:25Support for forum comes from San Francisco Opera. Menon is young, beautiful, and is a taste for the finer things, which is why her family is sending her to a convent. On her way to her new life, she falls for the handsome Chevalier de Grille, and they run away to Paris, the city of love. But when their youthful art is threatened by fatherly disapproval, menon must decide between what matters most. True love or a life of luxury. This fall, travel to Paris and fall in love with Messinés Menon. October 15th through November 1st, sfopra.com This is Vara, my Mina Kim. We're talking this hour about how social media is shaping how we experience our lives. How we narrate our lives and even make sense of it. With Catherine Jeser-Martin, who's explored this in a new book called The Story of Your Life, how social media shapes the way we experience everything. Catherine is a columnist for the cut or New York magazine. And listeners, do you use social media to share parts of your life? Why are why not?

14:25What have you noticed about the way you feel when you are posting or what you're trying to convey? Do you feel like you've developed an online brand that you're beholden to or felt like other people have? Have you tried to push back on social media's pressures? If so, we'd love to hear how you've done that too. 866-733-6786, the number 866-733-6786, at the email address forum at kqd.org and find us on Discord, Blue Sky, Facebook, or Instagram at KQED Forum. Discord user MJRides Facebook used to be a way to keep track of what your friends and relatives are up to. Now it is a steady stream of things, the algorithm things you might be interested in. Suggestions to follow friends or friends of friends and non-stop ads. One of the things you know, Catherine, is that we know and it's been well documented, the profit-making motive of social media companies, despite the kind of value you might get from catching up on your friends and relatives. That we know this and yet are uncomfortable talking about our participation in this.

15:27Can you talk a little bit about what you noticed when you were starting to really dig in with people about why they post the way that they do? Yeah, it's a really personal question to ask someone, like what are you trying to say about yourself when you're doing this? I found that, you know, I really had to develop a lot of trust with people before they were comfortable answering that question and it is like kind of asking someone to expose something very vulnerable about themselves if they're going to be honest. I mean, but that's part of why I wanted to write this book is because I was like, we're doing this thing in public, but when we're asked about what we're doing, it makes us deeply uncomfortable. So there's something kind of contradictory there that I found really interesting. Yeah, it really does get to your vulnerabilities. Well, I want to dig into some of the impacts you've noticed. First, the offline impacts that you saw, you say weddings where you first began to notice physical traces of social media's influence.

16:28What were you noticing about weddings? Yeah, weddings, you know, in the kind of early Pinterest era, that was when I started going to a lot of weddings. And I began to really see them as opportunities for a couple to demonstrate their taste in this really specific way and obviously their purchasing power. And then it just kind of got more and more and more, you know, amplified to the point where now when I'm attending like a big wedding, it's sort of like attending a trade show or like vendors in the event space because every vendor there will have like, you know, a tag me invite, you know, like a little mention of their socials so that you can produce content about them and tag them to the, and also, I mean, if you, if you're at a wedding with a band, for example, like recently a band was playing and they were creating reels while they were playing, like they had their phones set up right on stage. And it's like you feel as though you're kind of part of a performance that, you know, you're on camera from multiple angles the entire time, which is a really intense experience.

17:32Yeah. The, the other thing that I think is really common and you raised this too is the way that it has sort of flattened our vacations. Can you, can you talk about the effect is how do people's vacations? Yeah. I mean, vacations have now become sort of an opportunity to demonstrate your fitness. And I don't mean that literally, although it's part of it, like your fitness in general. So your ability to kind of find all the best spots to find them at times that are not crowded. So you can get the perfect photo. It's like, you know, you're savvy as a consumer. You're obviously you're spending power. How much you can afford to, you know, fly and visit all this stuff. Then you can produce evidence of it through your posts. And it does feel like these vacation posts are almost like, you know, proof of concept for your ability to thrive in the economy as it currently exists, which is, it all feel, it's a lot of work. It's like it's, it's a ton of work to stage really nice vacation photos nowadays because the expectations are so high.

18:32Let me go to color Sarah, who's on the line Sarah from Oakland. Join us. You're on. Hi there. This is a fascinating conversation. I really appreciate it. I will confess I'm a bit of a lot. I don't really use social media that much. I am a lurker. So like I can't really, I'm in no danger of falling off my high horse. But I'm curious what your perspective is on like this arc of this compulsory resilience that you're kind of imagining is coming through with, you know, not telling the story until the end and tell the sort of happy resolution. And I'm wondering like, what's the flip side of that? Like do we want people, because in my life, sometimes I don't share until there's a resolution because I'm just not ready to or like do we want people like processing in real time on social media? Like is that, is that the alternative? And if so, is that a good thing?

19:33Sarah, thanks. Catherine? Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I don't think that we necessarily want people to be processing in real time. I mean, I do think that there is a whole genre of social media on TikTok that is about that. And it's mostly younger people. It's it's Gen Z that do like, you know, major trauma dumps or they're like crying, they're like, you know, they set up their phone and they're crying and they're talking about it. So that does exist. I don't think that that is the solution to this sort of compulsory resilience, though. I think it's almost its own prison, just a separate one, the prison next door. I think that it's not so much that we need to change or that we like need to like, a harsh antidote. I just think that we're losing contact with other ways of thinking about our experience and maybe social media just isn't the place for that corrective. But I'm not sure, but it's funny. I've thought about this too and I don't know if I have an answer exactly, but but it is a really interesting question. What's the corrective?

20:34Yeah, like is social media and in its current form sort of salvageable, right? As a solution to if people just started diversifying their posts or do we need to look at something, you know, a total alternative? This, yeah, do you have some thoughts on that, Catherine? I mean, I think that the total alternative is always going to be real relationships with people that you have in person, you know, connections to. Because I do think that we can process our experience in real time with our friends, you know, over the phone or like in the privacy of our house, I think that's where we get the most from that. I think that's where that's meant to happen. And I guess I just worry that if we're not seeing that kind of processing at all on social media, I worry that we aren't necessarily doing it like IRL in the same way. That's kind of my fear, I guess. Yeah. Another thing that you worry about or note is the fact that we have really sort of normalized

21:34improving tuning up our photos, right? You note that it's common for everyday people to use filters, but also to use Photoshop and AI to alter the way that they appear. What does that signal to you and what are you concerned about that leading into? Yeah, I mean, I spoke to people who routinely had their baby pictures touched up. I think it starts, you know, at birth. Now, I think that, you know, if we are thinking about maintaining kind of a separate version of ourselves that exists in a digital space and then there's the sort of real life version of ourselves and there are two different things. There's something very alienating to the self about that kind of having a splintered self where, you know, you have the one version that's perfect and then the imperfect one. Because I think it can make it harder to show yourself, to put yourself out there, to kind of stand and be seen and be perceived in your material physical form

22:38that you didn't have time to touch up. I do think it can have that effect. Definitely on younger people, I see that in, you know, in the world as I go around. Yeah, Bingo writes, what is the difference between online identity and real life identity? Who were we before the internet? And who are we now? I think the internet magnifies human nature. You also note the prevalence of exaggeration, right? Exaggerated language in our posts. Can you talk about what you have seen with regard to how we communicate and speak a lot of times on social? Yeah. I think that's another consequence of the algorithm. We have kind of, we've learned, we've internalized these, these rules. And one of them is, you know, you're trying to compete for attention with all the other stuff in the feed. And that just compels us to kind of juice up the affect a little bit. Because otherwise, we just won't be heard over the noise. And this is just common sense, really. And so then we have people rather than just saying, you know, oh, you know, I had a nice day in London.

23:39It's like most gorgeous day ever in London, like having the time of my life. We describe our experiences in hyperbole and superlatives as a matter of habit. That becomes the baseline just so that in a bid for like basic attention. And so right, like all the ordinary stuff, like, you know, a day spent at home doing nothing. It just doesn't, it doesn't rate. Like you can't really include that because it's not part of the superlative menu of experiences. And it's a very short leave from hyperbole and exaggeration to lying. You point out, do you feel like it has normalized or helped normalize lying? Yeah. And you know, this kind of started for me when I was early on social media. And I would be talking about it with, you know, older family members who were, you know, people who were in their 70s. And they were looking at it and they were like, my God, all these people are just, they're just lying. How can you tolerate this? These are all lies.

24:39And I was like, you know, your definition of lies is really different than most people is like, there's a lot of omission, but that's not lying. And so I could, I saw this real sort of generational divide in terms of what constitutes honesty and truth. And I just noticed that the version of listen, it's not, it's not altogether true, but it doesn't make it a lie, has become the standard. So we're all just have accepted that this is not your real life. Everyone knows that's not your real vacation. Everyone knows that's not even necessarily your real family in the sense that everyone looks perfect in the beach photo and everyone smiling. And your real friends know that, you know, maybe you and your partner are on the house or like your kids are always fighting. Right, we don't, we accept the fake version happily. We're like, this is normal. This is how we communicate. And I think that it makes us comfortable with lies as a kind of matter of course to a degree that just was not true 20 years ago. Let me go to Amy in the East Bay, who's on the line. Amy, go ahead. Hi, thanks for taking my call. So yeah, I'm a mom and, you know, a younger child. And I struggle with this a lot.

25:44I mean, I'm obviously not going to let him get on social media, you know, for quite some time, if ever, as long as I can control it. But, you know, again, just kind of where does this, what does this do to the future generations and like where do we want to guide them as those of us who've been around with social media for so long, we know kind of what's going on in the end and out. You know, I'm like teaching my kid about, you know, emotions and I'm literally learning with him because kind of to your point earlier, you're like, I don't know that people are even expressing certain emotions because we want to be this, do this compulsory thing instead. You know, so I'll look at a book with my child on emotions and I don't even sometimes I'm just flamics and like, yeah, I just kind of read with the book says, but it's wild. It's wild. Yeah, Amy, thanks so much. And Katherine, you have thought a lot about this as a parent as well. And you know, we had you on talking about your kid and friction, maxing that that long ago. But what are your thoughts or Amy with regard to like, yeah, what what you think about how the next generation will can manage this.

26:50Oh, man, I mean, I really, I feel for for you, Amy, completely with this, my kids are little older and so I didn't really have to deal with it in quite the same way social media. I mean, now they're teens and they don't use it and I'm very comfortable saying you shouldn't and maybe even you can't like I haven't had to ban it, but I feel as though you shouldn't use it until you're an older teen because it just doesn't have the benefits and costs like, you know, the costs way outweigh the benefits. And I just think that for kids like building relationships in person is the way to go. That's where you get the, you know, the back and forth. That's where you see how another person's face responds when you say certain things. And I think those lessons are the lessons that kids have to learn. Like what happens when I do this and I have to then, you know, deal with the way I made someone feel and they're sitting right across from me. That's what you have to learn how to do, I think. And you don't learn that on social media. Yeah, I think Henry has a related point Henry and Santa Rosa join us. Go ahead. You're on.

27:53Yeah, I was just looking at as an oldster here, getting the senior ages and watching these kids, the algorithmic social media seems to be a narcissism delivery device. It seems to be created for the dopamine hit. And it is the case when we're looking at a lack of empathy and potentially the eradication of that narcissism negates empathy. And if so, what is the hope of the human race and indication of this? And I don't want to politicize it and make the statement political here. But an individual was assassinated in the street Manhattan because of being a insurance CEO. It's self-servific, but there is a broad-based celebration of this because of the industry he worked in in the Han that has done. Is this an indicator of the end of empathy and if so, what hope for us? Henry, thanks. Have you also connected this to a sense of a lack of empathy that seems to be growing in society that people have pointed out have been concerned about, Catherine? Yeah, I have. And I've been thinking about this actually just today in the context of the news coming out of Cornell University and this whole lawsuit against the frat.

29:02And I think that we're talking about the increased prevalence of dehumanizing other people and the way that these platforms allow us to do that because we're looking at people as avatars. You know, I think 10 years ago, I would have thought that was maybe alarmist. I don't know if I would have bought that. And I would say today, I absolutely do. And I think it's we're seeing it unfold in a lot of different spaces where it's just easier to think of people as categories rather than as, you know, fellow human beings. Listeners, we're talking with Catherine, Jason Barton about the effects of social media. We know of so many of them, but there are also ones that are subtle with regard to how we understand ourselves and others through the stories we tell about ourselves or the stories that we read other people telling about themselves on social media. Have you experienced some of the effects that Catherine is talking about? Do you feel like you are beholden to a certain idea of yourself on social media that you try to contribute to or maybe you have figured out effective ways to push back on social media pressures 8667336786 is the number find us on discord blue sky Facebook or Instagram our social media channels at kqd forum email forum at kqd.org

30:24discord user mulsaho writes social media change the way I looked at things like trees people and food I found myself wanting to experience simply wanting experiences simply to post on social media and get likes attention and validation looking back it feels gross. I've no I've grown out of this desire and value more discretion privacy and face-to-face interactions now I limit my screen time don't bring my phone into my bedroom and make sure the phone is not my first choice in the morning. I got off twitter in 2015 I followed a lot of comedy accounts and found myself imitating their style I noticed that the moment something amusing happened I was already composing the tweet in my head I wasted so much time trying to get the right wording for maximum impact wow that that does feel so much like something a brand manager would tell you to do Catherine. Yes I can really relate to that also I have spent a lot of time on twitter and I yeah no that's all very very familiar feelings that I myself have had and seen.

31:34The other thing too that it reminds me of is just the running through your mind of the different ways what you write or post could be misconstrued. I've got a little bit about that I think you even talked about this a little bit with just wanting to post about like a marriage milestone. Right yeah we have I mean speaking of brand managers I think that we have kind of adopted the priorities of a brand manager in talking about ourselves where we have to kind of manage a reputation we want to correct and kind of anticipate like you said misunderstandings I worried that when I had a 20th wedding anniversary and I was going to post about it and then I thought to myself well what if this comes across as offensive to people who never got married who were divorced I don't want to be seen as like the ultimate marriage booster if you see what I mean. We're talking with Katherine Jesser Barton her book is the story of your life has social media shapes the way we experience everything and very much about how social media is a story telling device and if we're telling certain types of stories what effect is that having on us.

32:40We'll have more with Katherine and with you after the break listeners this is forum I mean a Kim. Support for forum comes from Genentech the original biotech company for over 50 years Genentech is redefined what is possible by challenging the status quo they have helped drive more than 40 breakthroughs across various diseases including multiple sclerosis cancer vision loss. They are the ones patients feel whether it's getting back to familiar routines or creating new ones learn more about Genentech's many breakthroughs at gene.com that's g-e-n-e.com Support for forum comes from Genentech the original biotech company for over 50 years Genentech is redefined what is possible by challenging the status quo they have helped drive more than 40 breakthroughs across various diseases including multiple sclerosis cancer vision loss and food allergies but their greatest breakthroughs are the ones patients feel whether it's getting back to familiar routines or creating new ones.

34:00Learn more about Genentech's many breakthroughs at gene.com that's g-e-n-e.com Let's go to the forum at kqed.org and on forum social channels on discord blue sky facebook and instagram let me go next to caller Kathleen in Virginia. Hi Kathleen go ahead you're on.

35:00I'm going to go to the forum at kqed.org and for patients to rally together and be able to come up with some effective platforms to do good and to start more funding for research as a group because the first time I've been able to unite like this and it's easier for patients to not have to leave their house. I mean patients all over the world have been able to join together and as a military member it's been a great way for me to keep in touch with all of my friends that still live nearby and I can't have an actual base to face conversation with. Yeah Kathleen I'm so glad it's been all those things for you and it underscores some of the things you said right at the outset Catherine just about you know how much you loved it and what was good about it right like how it could be this this place of all the things that Kathleen is describing and I do wonder you know is it possible to have all those good things without all the the other things.

36:05Yeah you know I think that what Kathleen was talking about it reminds me of I would say that the culture of you know closed groups groups that are kind of you know often on Facebook or discord operates this way you know where you have kind of a group of people that really are part of a community and can share resources I think that it's a very very well suited tool for that I think that where you find problems is when you kind of expose yourself to the full algorithm and just the feed as a kind of an un uncut experience it becomes more harmful but I think in the privacy of closed spaces it can be social media can be incredibly generative and and a place of like real belonging. And we go to Alice and Petaluma next Alice go ahead. Hi there thanks for having me on and I work in the creative economy and I love this conversation and I just want to flag for you and for the listeners that there are alternatives that are starting to emerge and I work with one called Divine which is based on the old Vine 6 second looping video app and we have banned any AI content at all and we don't have an advertising based algorithm and it's so amazing to see what people are creating like puppet shows and really just basic human creativity is coming to the forefront so I just want to say that that hope and there are new forms of social media emerging.

37:29Yeah well I'm so glad to hear about that Alice thank you thank you so much I'd love to get your thoughts on this comment from Kyler Catherine Kyler writes the drive to post takes people out of the present I see people capturing content for social media in public and they look like they are feeling nothing in the moment which is sad because often there is something amazing in front of them you talk about this and how this might be evolving but yeah your thoughts for Kyler. Yeah that is such that's a very astute comment I think that when people are capturing content like that what they're often doing is they're actually trying to feel the kind of spark of of experience that can happen when you're like in the midst of something unfolding that's beautiful and fun and unexpected I think they are trying to conjure that feeling sometimes through a capture but by trying to capture it. I think that they're actually standing in the way of that feeling actually being possible I think that that kind of the feeling of like we're all here together we're having a time we have this sense of belonging of you know just I write about this actually in in quite length in the book I think that's what everyone is thirsty for all the time and I think that when we're taking pictures you know at a concert you see this all the time you know at festivals people just like filming you know a performance or filming themselves at the performance.

38:58I think they're really trying to convince themselves that they're that they're feeling it that they're in the moment but this developed habit of filming it you know it's it's a bit of it's a detriment to the feeling itself yeah it's it's a real thing that we're doing we're very much habituated to doing this now. Yeah well this discord user kevice writes I started with Facebook with my son was in college in order to use messenger because he didn't answer his non smartphone or emails but I grew to love Facebook I caught up with high school friends I hadn't seen in years put out notices of parties and events and enjoyed hearing from everyone years past Facebook and Instagram changed and after the November 2020 election I decided to take a month off social media I felt so much better a month turned into two months. Then I checked it again and still do maybe once a month but I don't scroll through everything I am so much happier this way. Do you feel like I'm noticing that people are getting off social media more than I thought yeah what do you see.

40:04I mean I'm seeing that too definitely I for for myself like Instagram is kind of like my drug of choice you might say and I will take it off my phone for during the week and have it on the weekends just because I feel like I I I use it too much and I'm very kind of I can fall into it mindlessly and often when I re install it the first few moments I'm like oh this is terrible God all of these people are nuts this whole everything about this is a huge mistake I should leave but that's not the right thing. I don't and then I'm just pulled right back in and this happens again and again and again and you know there's probably psychological terms that describe exactly what is happening to me but I do think that a lot of people I don't think that this is like a demographically significant chunk of people are leaving but it it is something that happens or they're limiting their access they're kind of you know they're using it as a controlled substance basically which is what I'm doing and I think that's what works for a lot of people. Do you think that people though also either worry or even call you out if they don't see you responding to things because I was reading a review of your book and a couple of other articles where people were talking about getting called out for not being responsive on social media as well.

41:27Can you talk a little about your own exploration of this and what you think is happening here. Yeah this is really where we this is this is tough stuff so right I mean there'll be a big you know a big news story or you know something controversial that everyone's talking about and I don't think that this necessarily affects most ordinary everyday folks but if you're someone who habitually posts about stuff who maybe you know has kind of made a lot of people who have been paying attention might say well this person is silent that must mean that they either don't care or somehow complicit with a larger problem. This is something that's happened I spoke to people in my book who had this experience and these people you know people who really feel as though there's this kind of responsibility to to speak in these environments and I think that's really tough I have that experience sometimes because you know I'm active on these sites and sometimes I do where I like oh boy if I'm gone for too long people are or they'll have message me and I won't reply then they'll take offense I mean there's so many so many so many people who are really

42:42so many social dynamics that are at work it's it's the real world transposed right it's as complex as the real world so yeah there's just there's a lot of entanglement and the sense of accountability that makes it hard to step away I think for a lot of people. Yeah the entanglement of the sense of accountability and then there's also a sense of people are noticing when you're not posting that they're sort of quietly surveilling you. Yeah it's I mean it's the worst thing to feel as though people are quietly surveilling you and I think it's much healthier as a rule to assume that no one cares and no one notices because I think that just lets everybody off the hook and that's probably you know advisable in general but it's not always true sometimes people do notice and that's just a fact. Yeah it's such an interesting feature of of all of all of this and Tony writes everything I'm hearing just makes me glad I'm not on these platforms. The range of experiences they provide is so narrow it seems poidly that yet it expands the complications of navigating real life society and other listener Stephanie writes I love to take photos when I travel and add captions with factoids about the image on Facebook to share with my small group of friends and family but young tourists see most interested in cute sea images for tiktok and Instagram.

43:55On my last vacation visitors had to line up for there to take their selfies in front of iconic sites. We're talking with Katherine Jason Wharton listeners the book is a story of your life how social media shapes the way we experience everything and you're sharing you know how you use social media if you've noticed some of the effects that Katherine's talking about or some of the feelings are discomforts or even that you know there's a there's a consistency of posting or a persona that you're beholden to to kind of keep but you're also sharing with you. Also sharing ways that you have tried to push back on social media's pressures and Heather writes it's important to remember social media is just a snippet of human interaction perhaps the antidote is not limiting time but also seeking other forms of connection like real life interactions and longer storytelling think the moth podcast. Heather and one thing that you seem to be reassured by I would say was the fact that when you did go out to talk with people and engage with them face to face that their ability to engage in tell stories has seemed there no matter what kind of like riding a bike like you could still do it and still enjoy.

45:12No, I met a lot of really interesting people while researching this book and they told me their stories and you know people were incredibly candid with me in ways that they did hearten me because you know people were willing to tell me about the kind of complicated inner workings of their lives and motivations for posting that what was so honest and intimate and did include so much kind of human you know nuance and ambivalence and all the all the kind of spectrum of feelings so I was heartened and you know in the end this book obviously we're talking about. We're talking about all the bad stuff about social media which is we could talk about that that that's many many books but you know I'm really just interested in storytelling and this has been how we tell stories last 20 years but our need to tell stories is not going anywhere like we are storytellers and so we're going to take this need maybe to another medium eventually hopefully who knows. Let me remind listeners you're listening to forum i mean a Kim I want to talk about that a little bit the power of storytelling and what you sort of discovered about how much we needed as human beings.

46:20Could you say a little bit about that and then I'd also just love for you to talk about the role of storytelling in your own life growing up on a commut. Yeah so I mean if you look back sort of in history we've been telling stories obviously for our entire species history we were you know telling stories stories in the oral tradition. We've we've always been doing this and what we were usually making sense of things that are hard through our stories we're trying to make sense of you know weather of hence and tragedy and like why is being a human so hard and why is love so painful. Like these are the big questions that animate you know fairy tales and we're trying to teach you know our children lessons you know the tears how you you should try to act with charity. This is like you know at the basis of so many folktales so it's fun to think about social media in this kind of longer historical context because it does belong to the exact same tradition.

47:21I mean for myself personally I grew up on a common in southern Vermont that you know was it just storytelling was was the whole was the whole place it was you know a group of people who had come to live together 20 years before it was born. And you know they just managed to kind of they were artists they were writers they were making theater and a lot of it was just held together by a story about how they were like you know a merry band of. Of these sort of missfits and I think a lot of communities still operate that way so for me I always could feel like I come from a culture like this tiny little subculture where storytelling is life it's like what we do and without these stories we would just be like a group of people. Living in a dirty house it's like what makes everything come to life so I think I've always really found stories to be just not something to be taken for granted I guess you could say. Yeah yeah very powerful stories I mean it is the foundation so much right to just how we convey what's happening in the world through journalism and it makes a lot of sense that your life is is all those things journalism writing books and so on.

48:35I love you go to Tracy and Hayward next I Tracy thanks for waiting go ahead. Oh thank you for having me on this is so fascinating now real quick I know you know how much time I'm older father so and I mean like they call me grandpa daddy. I'm 60 years old and I got a seven year old and a five year old my wife is 40. She's 20 years younger than me she's a Filipino woman she's a Filipino nurse and she grew up with social media rights so she's always on Facebook her Facebook oh my goodness there's times where the kids even say mommy can you get off the phone and play with us and I look at her and say oh they got you right. I love that one but I'm actually scared for the kids growing up because it's you got to keep them off this stuff because this really going to affect them and I'm I'm just scared for my own you and I'm not going to get these phones right they got those phones where they got these you can give your your kid this phone that you can monitor everything they do and they got like your own little social media page but it's not really the social media and I'm not going to get it.

49:53I'm not going to get the social media and then you can monitor their contacts who they can talk to and all that talk stuff. Yeah. That's the way to go. Tracy let me get Catherine's thoughts on like just to like keep them off of it all together. I guess one of the things that I hear you know when people are sort of saying that that's it right kind of that's the only way to do it. It's really hard because as you say this has become the main medium of storytelling in our culture and storytelling is so so important. So what are your thoughts about that because you do write and you have this interesting story about how how Gen Z has been handling the end of month retrospective photo dump as maybe a sign that they're actually learning through using the tool how to control it better to meet their own needs. Yeah, I think that younger folks are like doing a little bit less kind of aggressive narration like they're just putting a bunch of pictures and with no caption and it's kind of like you make sense of it.

50:57You know this is impressionistic storytelling which I think is really cool because like millennials like me were kind of always trying to like insert our own version of things and like kind of insist on a narrative. So I think that there's hope that younger people are going to be using it differently and not as kind of rigidly as as my generation. But like as far as little kids and you know to the colors point it is really hard and it puts a lot of pressure on parents to offer alternatives. It's really hard to like present things that aren't this that are fun and I really really can I sympathize a lot with that pressure. I think that as little exposure is good, you know, but it's hard to be perfect. I think that you know perfection is kind of not a realistic goal for anybody ever. So I just think as much as you can do stuff with your family that isn't you know being captured on social media that's probably you know the best you can hope for and that's that's something real, you know.

52:00Yeah, like the way you sing to the trees and winter Catherine. Sure, like create some weird ritual that you do every year that you guys are into that you don't take pictures of that. That's sort of that's a good start. Well, Catherine, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you so much, Mina. Catherine, Jesu, Barton's book is the story of your life how social media shapes the way we experience everything. My thanks as well to all our listeners for sharing and being candid about the way that they use, feel and worry about social media and how they do want to tell better stories and know people in more intimate ways. Caroline Smith produced this segment you've been listening to Forum. I'm Nina Kim. Music

53:00Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the Generosity Family Fund and the members of KQED. Support for Forum comes from Genentech, the original biotech company. For over 50 years Genentech has redefined what is possible by challenging the status quo. They have helped drive more than 40 breakthroughs across various diseases including multiple sclerosis, cancer, vision loss and food allergies. But their greatest breakthroughs are the ones patients feel, whether it's getting back to familiar routines or creating new ones. Learn more about Genentech's many breakthroughs at gene.com. That's g-e-n-e. Support for Forum comes from San Francisco Opera. This fall you're cordially invited to the most chaotic wedding of the century. The Wiley Valley, Figaro and Clever Housemaid Susanna are excited to tie the knot. But the arrogant head of the house, Kant Amaviva, is determined to get in the way.

54:02Schemes and disguises abound as a lovable couple pull every trick in the book in order to exchange their marriage vows. Don't miss most arts beloved romantic comedy The Marriage of Figaro. October 31st through November 29th, sfopra.com.