How good where OZ

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1:00This episode is brought to you by Subaru. You know that place your mind always wanders to? The lake? The mountains? The homes of the people you love most? The completely redesigned 2026 Subaru Outback is built to help you get there. With legendary capability, standard symmetrical all-wheel drive, and the confidence to go further. The 2026 Subaru Outback. Love never looked so good. Visit Subaru.com slash outback to learn more. Hello everyone, and welcome back to another super-igbly podcast with your host, Stamie Moranand. Toby Harris. Wow. Can I just say you look fantastic? Well, you look like you've had a trim. Looks like you've done... You're looking a bit hairy, potter-esque, with those glasses on as well. Wow, Damien, if I was to take them off, I would turn it into a homeless man with bags of life under his eyes.

2:07So I'm going to keep the glasses on for now. But hey, it's fantastic to see you. You're looking... It is swab. Has that hair grown back a little bit? You mean it's gone back a little bit? That it has. Listen, I'm a little bit sad, right? Because you obviously, this first pod we're done, since you've been left me. Yes. To fend for myself here. And then my son went off to university yesterday. Was it yesterday? Yeah. And... That was hard. It was, hey, and that house is going to be a little bit quieter now, isn't it? We're actually in his room. We're actually in this now. With this is now podcast. Podcast room. We love long-lived it. We missed him for about five seconds. And there's a silver lining to every cloud, as they say.

3:10That's right. That's right. Let's dive straight in to the greatest rivalry tour, because we haven't had a chance to really talk about it. No, we haven't at all, had we? It started off so well. So obviously we beat all of the provincial teams, which we should do. And then we won that first test, didn't we? And then... What did you think at that point? What did you think after we'd gone and won that first test match? I thought that we would at least draw the series at that point. I thought we'll be able to win one more game out of the three. But I was wrong. And I am wrong quite a lot of the time. I think we were unlucky at points.

4:10But I mean South Africa are different beasts, don't they? What sort of sums it up, eh? Everyone before the tour, they were talking about the fact that South Africa aren't worried about this tour. It's all about the World Cup. I think we completely and utterly proved anyone that thought that wrong, because they were desperate not to lose that last match. In America that we'd said the all black should be aiming for. That was their best game. They absolutely turned up for that. They turned up for all of the matches really to be honest. But that last match was quite clear. They did not want to draw the series against the ABs. But at the end of that match they all got in a huddle. And Andre, not Andre, even needs to be gave a little thing to the all black saying

5:13we've really enjoyed this coming here type thing. Do you reckon it? A bit of a we beat you. No, no, it was like a spurt. But I just was looking at him, a next to standing next to the all blacks. And he's just an absolute beast. He had guns that were so much bigger than the all blacks guns. And when you look at players of the series, the first two people that come to mind is Malcolm Marx and Eben Epsabeth. Absolutely. And then you think Jesse Creel is well, don't you? He played really well, didn't he? He's become a real leader in that backline for them. You know, remember back in the day when we sat, absolutely bad going, he's a donkey. How he's proved us wrong. He was a donkey back then. It's like, Jordy Barrett was a donkey back then. He's no longer a donkey now.

6:13Hey, listen, we dished out, but we also accept that we are completely utterly wrong sometimes. Sometimes? I, you know what, though, when it comes to rugby, most of the time. It comes to rugby. We're pretty decent at picking things, you all right? What I mean by that is we never thought at any time, even after winning that first game, that New Zealand were going to run away with the tour. Absolutely. You know, there's a changing of the guard. I heard this from New Zealand reporters who are getting paid a lot of money to give their viewpoint, saying that there's going to be a changing of the guard in New Zealand, they've got it now. I don't know how you watched that first test match and get from that, that New Zealand were going to run away with it, right? What happened in that first test match was every bounce of the ball, every 50-50 call went New Zealand's way.

7:14Yeah. And they were good enough to win, right? In every other match, it was even Stevens on the referee's calls, the bounce of the balls, maybe then that last game, maybe in that last game, so therefore we've got the rubber degree once or twice. But the score line and the referee and flattered South Africa in that game, do I think they were going to lose that game? No. No, I agree. But I think the score line flattered them. You know, test three, two and three, close, very close. And it probably could have gone either way, especially that second one. And then the fourth one, they were always on top, they were always going to win. And, you know, if the referee had been fair or not, depending on how you saw it, they were always going to win, I think. They deserved to win the tour. You know, if New Zealand had a draw in the tour,

8:16I think it would have flattered New Zealand. I think what it would have been is it would have been a fantastic thing for New Zealand to say, we weren't there, we drew after we were 12 months ago with Ray under Razor. But I think it would have flattered us. And we said going into the tour, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for New Zealand to lose it. I think it would have been a bad thing for them to lose all four matches. The fact that they win in one, the first one. And then they were in every match, you know, up until the seventh minute of every match. And you know, a lot of people were thinking that wouldn't happen. Playing in South Africa, I think if you would have reached, okay, let's do that now. Rate the tour. Was it a past mark? Was it a success or was it a disaster? Well, it's funny you say that because I remember asking you,

9:18what would be acceptable? And I can't remember exactly what you said, but I do think that we needed to draw the series for it to be a success. Oh, did I say that? Did I say that? I think so. A success though. A success. A success. Okay. Now, I think we've won one game in a South African tour. Okay, I think it's a pass, but I do think the all blacks have a lot of learning to do. I hate that terminology. I hate that terminology. Okay. Learnings. We're going to take a lot of learnings from this. I hate that. Now, I mean it in quite a broad sense because now my father is quite good with rugby. And he was saying that we need to change some of the coaching staff already. And he's talking about Jayce Ryan and Lee. He's talking about Jayce Ryan and he's talking about Tana.

10:19Oh, okay, he's gone Tana. Yeah, it's big call. Yeah. I'm big call. I don't just, okay. And I've seen it before, we're Tana, great for mana. Yeah. Get that rhymes as well, mate. That rhymes well done by you. It's actually Tana mana. Okay. But he's actually not that good. Like, if we look at his track record, and we've spoken about this before, haven't we? Okay, we've spoken about this before. The Blues was in great. Mwana Pacifica absolutely was in great. And his current defence, isn't that good either? I don't think they'll change any coaching staff. I think they will either. No, I don't think they will either. But I think they should, especially those two. I don't think they should. And the reason why I don't think they should is, and I agree with you, if this was 12 months ago, then yeah. But I think they, you know, if there's one thing the players need now,

11:19until the World Cup, is a bit of consistency and a bit of time. And also, I do think that Tana's not thick. That, the D-Fancy round in that first test match was pretty good. The Fancy round and the second and third test matches were also pretty good. The D-Fancy and the last one was a little bit lacking. And if we want to go into the extra loot, differences between the two teams. And I think it's something that not many other people have spoken about is. When New Zealand are defending close to their tri-line, the guard, the player right next to the Ruck, is quite defensive there. He's not moving forward, which I understand, right? And, but then outside him, guards two and three, and then backline or whoever's there, they're also defensive, they're also passive, they don't get up off the line.

12:19If you look at the South Africans, this is an absolute key difference. Yes, the guard is passive. When I say passive, I mean, he's not moving forward. But other than him, every single other player is getting off the line and wanting to tackle the New Zealanders in front of the game line. Right? Yeah, okay. Now, I hear what you're saying, okay? But our guards, now I think South Africa scored a specially one try in that last test. And the guard, okay? Drifted out. Yeah, you're right. There was the, you know, the guards, the guard is their job is to absolutely mother, like, muller someone that's coming through that short ball, isn't it? Through that game. No, they're, they're just going, oh, yeah, no, oh, see you later.

13:19Come through, please. And you're like, the job of that. Don't get sold to dummy. If he passes it, you just push him. If he comes for you, you smoke him. Like, that's the sort of defense. And then, and then there were, just listen. And then there was another instance where, when we're defending, we're defending outside to in. Okay? Yeah. Now, when we were, when we made a break around the outside or down the line against them, they're defending inside to out, aren't they? Okay. So when that goes, you just push the player next to you out, out, out. Now, we made a break down. And then at one point, there must have been, and I think they actually turned it over at one point. They had four or five players in that five-meter box by the corner flag, because that's how they're defending. Five players. We made a break, and we only had one or two there. You know, they're running backwards.

14:20We're running forwards. How come we don't have that many? But also when, then, when we're defending, we don't have that. I think, you know, I did say, ultimately, the team that wins the whole comm, after that first game, Dave Rene winning that first game, they're all backs winning the first game. I said, it'll come down to coaching. All right, the better coach will win the tournament, the series. And if you look at that as a statement, it's absolutely the truth, because Dave Rene is a very, very good coach, but Razzie is better. And he, he learned, talk about learnings. He looked at New Zealand's game plan. He saw what they were trying to achieve. New Zealand were very good at achieving it, and they still were good at achieving it in games two, three, and four. But what he was looking to do is, he was looking to isolate New Zealand

15:21and get the turnovers. And when you talk about, when we went wide, and we get that line break, so that figure are actually saying, okay, if you get that line break, we don't want you to get the line break. But if you get it, the one thing we can do is isolate you. And they did it very, very well. And they did it very well. Malcolm Marx was fantastic. Now, we didn't have anyone like that in our team. We didn't have a turnovers specialist. You know, our one turnovers specialist, Karefi is currently getting smoked with Wellington. How he wasn't in the Orbex is beyond me. Now, I've got another thing. Okay. Tell me this. Okay. Who was in the Super Rugby Final? Wellington versus the Chiefs. Your beloved Chiefs. No, sorry. No. Your beloved Hurricanes. Hurricanes. This year. Against the race.

16:22Shut up. Okay. So, what was the score? Was it close or was it a bit of a whitewash? No. It was an absolute whipping. Like, okay. No Super Rugby Final has ever seen. Correct. Now, how many Chiefs players were in the Orbex? Yeah, loads. Loads. Okay. And we actually worked it out that the ones that played test matches, I think there were maybe one or two more Hurricanes than there were Chiefs. But Chiefs were over 10. Yeah, yeah. No, tell me. No, no, hang on, hang on, hang on. No, you're listening to me at the moment. No. Now, how do that many, you know, hang now granted? A lot of them should have been in there. Okay. But there were some where you're like, what? Can I just say, you're only brained at... You're only braver because I'm not next to you. Now that I'm not next to you, you're telling me to shut up.

17:23Now you're not, now I'm not next to you. And I can't give you the old whewt. Right? You then got all this courage to tell, put me in place. Do you know what I mean? It's a bit of a... I do know what you mean. You know what I mean? If you were here, if you were here right now, I tell you what, would you rather, got a couple of, would you rather spare? Okay. Hit me. Would you rather live in New Zealand or England? That's a really hard question right now. Hey, oh, guess what, aside note, guess what I'm doing on Saturday. I'm going to go watch the Cana replay. Oh, you're going to go to a stadium? Yeah, the new stadium, yeah. How much is a ticket? Like 27 bucks. That's not bad as it. So what, like, like 12 quid? 12 quid. Yeah. 12 quids. That's not bad as I'd pay that. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah. I bought two... No, I didn't buy it, but there's two kg of mints for about 30 bucks.

18:26So just go hungry for a little bit and you can watch the wing. Yeah, do you know what? That's a lot for two kgs of mints, isn't it? Yeah. Two kgs of mints. What's that in English sterling? 30 bucks, maybe like 14 pounds for two kilograms? Oh, okay, so it's pretty good. It's not bad in the necessarily. Yeah, teen just sounds more ridiculous. Right, man, let's go back to rugby. Let's get back to rugby. All right. I got so... No, no, no. Okay, so the physical battle, let's rate. Okay, let's go through. Let's see what we think about these topics, okay? So if we are raiding New Zealand on the physical battle, what impressed you about New Zealand in comparison to the... to the sapphars? And then what... What impressed you about the sapphars in comparison to the all blacks? When we talk about the physical battle, what...

19:27what you surprised are not. Not really. I think we had... I think we played it with heart, but we're just not big enough. We're not... We don't run onto the ball as well as they do. You know, they're taking us a step or two back and actually getting the ball moving forward, especially in those close areas. But we don't do that. We sort of catch the ball stood still. They make contact. We either fall forwards, a yard or two, or they knock us back. I thought... Where was the ball running onto the ball and they're punching through, aren't they? I actually thought, like, when we did a bit better than I was expecting us to do in that area, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't seen it right. It is... It's the all blacks of old. And I think when I watched them in that match one, they didn't do that as much. They were running onto the ball a lot more in those close encounters, rather than just catching it standing still. But in that last test, they definitely called the ball standing still.

20:29But I'm going to say it's a past mark for physicality for New Zealand. I take your point though. South Africa were just better than us in that area. In fact, you'd have to say they're exceptional in that area. New Zealand have still got a bit of work to do. But I don't think they will struggle against any other team in world rugby when it comes to physicality apart from South Africa. And that might be the problem. That might be the problem because you know what? The next time they're going to play a team that has that physicality is only South Africa. Now they will play them once more before the World Cup quarter final if that's what happens. But it's almost like they won't know whether they've improved enough. Arguably neither was South Africa know whether New Zealand have improved enough either. But all right. So physical battle obviously goes to... I think most things are going to go to South Africa. But I'm just saying all blacks were in as bad as I thought.

21:31They were going to be going into the comp. All right. So second one is tactical battle. What were your thoughts on South Africa's ability, tactically and New Zealand's ability tactically? I think South Africa were able to adapt a lot better. New Zealand, I think... There was a few times where we were almost chasing the game towards the end. And yes, we may have scored a few tries in that last sort of 10-15 minutes. But at that point South Africa had pretty much put the game to bed through that tactical battle. You know, and I think we had spoken about it right at the very start. Hadn't we where South Africa are going to kick their goals now? As soon as they get in, they get in a good position for a penalty, for a kick at goal, they're going to take it. And they did. And that's a tactical thing. Now, I think when we were in that position,

22:34the game was almost too late in a way. Yeah, I agree. I would actually... I'm going to be controversial because there are a lot of people disagree with me. I think tactically in games, one, two, and three, the all blacks were actually better. Tactically we're better than South Africa. In game four, South Africa, it was heading shoulders. They were a better than us, right? Can I just... Can I just stop you there with one, two, and three? And I'm just going to ask your question. Do you think tactically we were better, but the players couldn't execute? I think we were tactically absolutely on point. But there were key areas of the game that... South Africa just better at that skill execution. So the example, catching the ball high. South Africa is just awesome at it. New Zealand's tactic of catching over the shoulder is a great tactic. So when you look at it, that'll be the way they need to go forward.

23:34The problem was that they weren't getting in the way of the chaser. So that works really well. Catching over the shoulder works really, really well. If you're in the line of the South African chaser, right? If you're not in the line, then they've got a clear run for the ball. You've got a clear run for the ball, and then it's a 50-50, which... Well, it's not a 50-50 because they're actually going forwards, aren't they? Where is your catching over the shoulder, which is a really hard skill? It is a hard skill, but my point being is if you get in line with them, it's no longer a 50-50, it's more like a 70 or even an 80-20, because if you're in the line of them, then they can't get a clear run to the ball. So therefore, at best, they're going to knock into the back here. So I like the fact that the tactics were there. I also really liked what they were trying to do. They created a lot more opportunities in South Africa.

24:35Where, tactically, South Africa were much better than the all blacks was at the breakdown. But other than the breakdown, New Zealand, tactically, were great throughout the whole three matches. I mean, yes, South Africa is scrum, unreal. But that's not tactics. That is just execution. They're high, they're high balls, unreal. You take those two things out of the game, you say New Zealand gets parity on the high ball, and gets parity on the scrum, then New Zealand wouldn't win both those games. But they didn't. So therefore, going into the last test match, even it's a bet, tactically, was a master class at line-up. New Zealand didn't adapt from test match three into test match four. New Zealand's defensive tactics were poor, going into that last match. And their breakdown work was just, you know, I'm not going to say it's terrible.

25:39But tactically, they didn't make adjustments in that area. Now, I think that is, New Zealand was just 5% off their game, going into that last game, when they shouldn't have been, but they were. But they were 5% off tactically as well, and that killed them in the end. Yeah, I think South Africa sort of wiped the floor with us, but I do think that the score line flatted South Africa. And like I said at the start, do I think South Africa is going to lose that game? No, I didn't. But I do think that New Zealand were hard done by with some of the calls. I think the one that really got me, and the only one that really got me, was when the touchy said, oh, the player stripped the ball backwards in the rock. This is the bit that gets me okay. So the player stripped the ball backwards, we doesn't strip the ball backwards.

26:39And he's given a penalty for that. Now, why on earth hasn't the third official come in, the TMO come in and go on. You got that wrong lads. He hasn't stripped the ball back. It's clear and obvious. It's a clear and obvious mistake by the touch judge, because at that point, he gets penalized. They kick it into the corner. They score the try. Yeah. And that all didn't need to happen, because we've seen it before. It has happened before, where there's a clear mistake made. A penalty is given in the wrong direction, and they've seen it on the big screen, and they've reversed the decision. But we're not a big screen. We're not on the big screen. There was a replay. Yeah, but they didn't do it. And actually, apart from that, I don't think New Zealand can say they're hard done by, other than that one call. There were 50-50 calls. There was obviously the yearly tackle, but it was, it was poor touch.

27:42It was a touch and go. Yeah, that could have gone either way. It wasn't clear and obvious. And I always go back to the one thing that I've really liked about this tour, when it comes to the referee, is that unless it's clear and obvious, they haven't got involved, or they've gone with the sided with the on-field decision. And I like that. And at the end of the day, apart from that one call, which blatantly wasn't a strip back, nothing was clear and obvious. Did he make contact with his foot? Did he trip him up? Yeah, he did. Was it clear and obvious? No, it wasn't. So play on-lads, you know? Let's just play on. Okay, closing, closing question for you on this, on the series, is, who benefited more from those four matches? Is it a South Africa, or is it New Zealand? Who benefits more out of those four matches? I think New Zealand does. I think South Africa have gone on and kept on winning,

28:42whereas I think it was very valuable to New Zealand, especially in new coaching staff, some new players. So they've been able to now almost figure out who their core team is. But also, we're playing in South Africa, in South Africa. So we got to see all their tricks of the trade. Do you know what though? They don't have many tricks of the trade, but what they do, they're bloody good at. Yeah, exactly. Scrum. You know, they set peace. They set peace. Is brilliant, because it's a bit. He's a wizard in the air. We talk about best line-out jumpers in the world. At the moment, he is there ever. He's in the conversation now, I think. He is the best defensive line-out jumper in World Rugby. You know, if there's one guy which New Zealand ended up learning,

29:44is just don't throw it to the guy who's opposite it's a bet. Just don't do it. If you don't do that, you're probably going to win the ball. If you do do that, you're probably going to have 50-50 chance of winning and losing. Yes. And they eventually win, okay, we'll either go through to the front, or we're going to throw it to the back and throw it to the middle, because that's where he's a bet there's. Once they started doing that, they actually kept most of their own ball. I'm going to agree with you. I'm going to say New Zealand, ultimately, are the greatest winners from that tour. Not to say that they're going to go away and beat South Africa and that quarter-final. If they play in the quarter-final, but I think they're a lot more, and they've got a much better opportunity. Now, here goes the next question. Can New Zealand, from what you've seen, win the World Cup? Don't say, oh, everyone can win the World Cup. It's, you know, everyone, even Japan could on paper, Scotland could.

30:46So I'm talking about, if you had a thousand pounds, and it's paying two to one, which is good odds in New Zealand's favour, right? Are you putting a thousand pounds on New Zealand to win the World Cup? Or are you going to go for one pound, one dollar fifty, yeah, and go to South Africa? I'm a five pound sort of better. I wouldn't put a grand on anything. Do I think New Zealand can win the World Cup from what I've seen? No. Wow. I think they can. I'm sure they can. But I just don't think New Zealand will be able to go round of sixteen, quarter final. No, no. When do they meet South Africa in the quarter? Quarter final. So I don't think they can go quarter final, semi final, final. Just from what I've seen. Yes, they're not going to be playing South Africa in every game,

31:47but they need to beat South Africa, which they can do, especially if it's a one off game, okay, which they do at the start, but then to back it up in the semi, to back it up in the final, we just haven't been that consistent at the moment. So it'll be interesting. Ask me that question again at the end of the year. That's the big one, isn't it? Because New Zealand go win the two bloodislows, beat Scotland, beat Wales and beat England. And then maybe South Africa slightly slip up. New Zealand play France in the final of the nation's championship. And they go win that. Then all of a sudden, I think their stocks rise greatly, because if New Zealand had a good chance, or have a good chance to beat South Africa, it would be in a quarter final, you know, where they're coming out a little bit cold

32:47from a few pretty average matches leading into that quarter final. New Zealand are coming in a little bit cold, but I would much rather South Africa in a little bit cold than them. Battle hardened after, you know, three matches, where they've got a massive squad. And you've had to go on, you know, back it up, back it up, back it up. Your squad's, you know, hanging on in there and you're up against them in the final. I think, you know, England have got a real easy run into the final if they can do it. But anyone, if you place South Africa in that final, whoever it will be, if South Africa in the final, you're going to find it very difficult to beat them, because they've got real depth. You're not going to probably have your full strength team out come that final, because you can have injuries.

33:47They just can replace those injuries so much easier than any other team. Not so much more efficiently as well, you know, one player comes in, the next player replaces them, but they're just as good. Yeah, because their game plan's pretty simple. They just fit right in, you know, whereas a France or a New Zealand or anyone else, their game plan might be a little bit more complex and therefore changing the chess pieces makes a big difference. Okay, next massive question, right? And you can't say, tell me at the end of the year, right? You can't say that. Is Dave Rene the right man for the job? Yes, I think he's a great coach. I think maybe what he didn't do is pick a lot of players on what's the word I'm looking for.

34:51On reputation? No, I think he probably picked players on reputation where he should have picked them. And he said he was going to pick them on performance, didn't he? Who did he not pick on performance? Karifi. Okay, but I can see why he didn't pick him. The other guy from the Hurricanes as well, the other loose Ford, who's now going overseas. It was funny because you know how they flanders, flanders, they pulled every string out of the bag to keep Fingernorfoo. Yeah, you did well there as well. I still think I budget it. But then flanders, they just let go and he was probably one of the best players of that Super rugby tournament. Yeah, you can't keep them all, can you? You can't keep them all. But then why keep Fingernorfoo and then not play him or play him once or twice?

35:54That is the big one. That's the big one for me. And that would be with Dave Rene, the only criticism I had in his selections, where he's in the fourth test match, he needed to pick a more explosive bench than he did. Yeah, but he needs to go. Tom and Tavan RY needed to be in there. Because you know, going 10 minutes left, you wanted him poaching the ball, turning the ball over, creating havoc in the midfield. And they didn't have it, you know, they just they brought on Rico. You know, they've gone Antonyll in it brown and they should play something with Rico. And you know, it's like like for like, not a point of difference, but anyway. All right, so I'm going to say I am absolutely sold on Dave Rene being the Orblax coach. In fact, if I was the Orblax management as in the CEO,

36:55I would be extending his contract past the World Cup. Because if I look at Razor, I was I was a massive Razor fan, huge Razor fan, right? You know that. You were a brown nose. Yeah, I would have, wow, I would have been impressed to be in the same room as him. And I still would be to be honest, you know. But we need, we need to go over the Orblax. We see it at the time, his coaching staff weren't good enough. They were miles away from being good enough. And when I watched them play, I didn't see any identity. There was nothing. It was just like it was, it was in Forsters boys playing the same style of rugby that played two years, three years, four years earlier. Right, there was nothing cutting edge. And it just did not work. Right. And now you go Dave Rene. And straight away, you can, you can see what he's trying to achieve.

37:58And he's trying to achieve stuff that other people aren't doing around the world. This is not, everyone says, oh, this is the way Dave Rene plays. No, it's not. Dave Rene is playing like this because the rules have said this is where the space is. Yeah. Right. The rules at the moment, the way that the world rugby is, this is where the space is. So I will attack the space. I think it's fantastic. And if they can get one or two things, they tweak one or two things, they're going to be even harder to beat. So yes, I am sold. I would sign them up to after World Cup. If he can go on a run now and not lose another game, I think he can probably afford to lose one game between now and the end. And I think everyone else will be sold as well. But I'm saying it here first. I think Dave Rene is definitely the right guy for the job. And anyone that is saying that he's under pressure, look in the mirror.

39:00Because you were the same people that are saying Dave Rene is under pressure. You were the same people that after that first match were saying there's going to be a change in the tide. New Zealand are going to win all four matches. The same people that said that. It's because we're, you know, it's easy for us to say that behind a screen. We're not in it. We're not making the decisions. We're just talking about it. And we know what we want. Of course, but what I'm saying is, from what I've seen, Dave Rene is the right man for the job. Oh, I totally agree. Name an area where the all blacks have not improved from two years ago. Or even from the first test, you know, our scrum was pretty diabolical in that first test. But we improved it. People say like, oh, we haven't solved the high ball problem. Do you know what? Dave Rene has. We haven't solved. But we haven't been able to execute that thing. You can see what's wanting to happen. But it can't happen because we don't have the talent.

40:03No, because because skill wise, we're just not there yet. Dave Rene solved the problem. The player's just got to catch up a little bit. Correct. You know, so then you go, okay, scrum. Right. Well, yeah, you're right. You know, you look at the test match one. We're on skates. Yeah. Test match two. I think we did a little bit better. Test match three. Then we went back a little bit because Angus Garden. I've refurred it a bit funny in test match two. I think all three. I can't remember. Test match four was where you really saw New Zealand made some real improvements there. Yeah. Right. They have improved in their defense. They've improved in their attack massively. They're a much more together group. Every single aspect of the way New Zealand play this year, they've been competing last year. And under Fuzzy, apart from the World Cup year where they got their act together, because I think Joe Smith was involved. I reckon Dave Rene is the right man for the job.

41:06Is could he go with a slightly different coaching group around him, maybe? But I absolutely sold on it. I think New Zealand in a way better place. And I think New Zealand will go into next year's World Cup thinking they can win the World Cup. Not being happy with a semi or a final, you know. Yeah. And you know what, the biggest one is the discipline. New Zealand's discipline under both Razor and Hanson and Fuzzy has been shit for years. Right. And Dave Rene is the only coach in all that time that is put, as players under real pressure to not give away stupid penalties. Yeah. I still think we gave away stupid penalties though, or just coach kill us stuff. And that's what I sort of was alluding to earlier. The tactics are there from the coach, but the players need to catch up a bit.

42:09I agree. Okay, last question for tonight's pod, right? It's like it's another few part of. Blood is low cup coming up. It's a week away after. Oh, is it a week away? It's not far away anyway. You've got obviously South Africa versus Australia. South Africa rolled out a very, very different team. So, you know, even if Australia win that game, I don't think it means they're amazing. Do you think that the Aussies can win one of the two blood is low cup matches? What is a pass mark for them? What's a pass mark for New Zealand? I think a pass mark for New Zealand is to win both. I think pass and success are the same. They are under the same umbrella with this one for New Zealand. I think a pass and it's success are the same for South Africa, but I think if they win one game, I think they'd be happy with that. Do I think they will win one game?

43:09I would like to think not. But from what I've seen for the last four games against South Africa with New Zealand, I think we'll be too strong. I think we'll be battle hardened. Australia went to Argentina. They won one, they drew one. But I just think New Zealand, although we've got quite a few injuries, don't we? Yeah, I don't think it massively matters. No, I don't think it massively matters. I think the one that does matter is Arles Avera not playing in that fourth test match, made a big difference for us. I think him not playing for the rest of the season is massive. You know what? If you take it to be in Malcolm Marks out of the equation, Arles Avera for player of the test match series is an easy win. And he only played two and a half matches. He was so exceptional that after two and a half matches, I'm like, I still think he could be a world player of the year.

44:16You know, but he's not going to play any more matches. He was unbelievable in those first three matches. And in the last match in that first half that he played, oh, just Arles Avera is very beast. But anyway, I think him not being for the bled is low. What's his success? The problem is, even if he comes in, it proves nothing because he didn't play in South Africa. No, I don't think it has to prove anything. I'm just asking a question. Do you think Careefe will come in? No, I'm just saying the problem for him is let's say he does come in and let's say he plays really well. Unfortunately, Dave Rennie just doesn't see him as a guy that can do it against South Africa because he played really well in Super Rugby. He's played really well for the last few years. But for some reason, Dave Rennie's like, I don't think you can do it against South Africa.

45:20So therefore, I'm not taking you. Which I think is a bit ridiculous. We needed an out and out poacher. And we didn't have one. The two people in that all blacks squat, well, Careefe wasn't even a squad, but the one person who was an out and out poacher in that all black squad was Tava Tava Navi. That's right. I don't play him either. There's no one agreed mate. Agreed. I think that's what we were lacking. We were lacking in our now poacher. We were lacking, we were lacking game breakers in that fourth test match of the bench. We were lacking a Tava Tava and RY for a fee fee. I'm going to call him fee fee from now on. They needed him off the bench. You know, you can give it to Lee Roy Carter. You missed those two tackles, which arguably cost us the match and the third test match. But, you know, he's appointed difference as well.

46:22I do like Josh Morby, but not off the bench type thing, you know. I agree. He's not a bench player. Josh Morby's like a Ben Smith. Yeah, a test match starter. Not a bench. Okay mate. So I'm going to go and say a little bit further than you. I say for success for New Zealand, doesn't just winning 2-0. It's winning and winning convincingly. And I don't mean they have to beat them by like 30 points. What I mean is there's not an area that they lose. So they don't lose in the scrums. They don't lose in the line out. They don't lose tactically or in the rug. And then they can still play the white game the way that they want to play. So, you know, what we want is we want them to win and feel like they're never going to lose. So whether this storm, if New Zealand lose both.

47:24Well, there'll be bloody hell to pay, weren't there? And Dave or any of the geters, you know, get hung in the streets probably. You know, yeah, I really hope that doesn't happen. And I hope it doesn't happen because I do think that he's the right man for the job. And I just don't want anyone to be able to put any more pressure on the all blacks. I think that those guys are, you know what, I was proud to be a keywagon. You know what I mean? Watching the A.B.'s, watching the way that Artisavir put crikey. I've forgotten his name now and I just left me. Oh, Hooker, you know, holding the flag. Oh, yeah. Who? No, not Fox. Who? I don't know. I don't know who you're talking about. Hooker, Coyote.

48:24Crikey. No, Fitsy. Oh, Fitsy. And Fitsy's holding the flag in the first one. And Artisavir gets this whole team to move across a step to put his arm over it. And they do the bloody New Zealand national anthem with him, right? Yeah. And they just filled me with pride. Now they did it every other game since, right? But that for me was like, I was so proud to be a keywagon. Honestly, it's just like, this is amazing. And then they went on one. And I think they really made me love the all blacks again. And I haven't felt like that for a while. I've been a bit like, oh, come on. You know, like, come on. Whereas under Dave Rene, he's given them, he's given the players something that they're really proud of. And he's given the fans something that they can be proud of as well. So any haters, you're barking up the wrong tree.

49:25The boys just need a little bit more time. Yeah. No, I agree. And obviously we lost to a fantastic spring box team. Oh, once in a generational spring box team, they've been amazing for the last two years. They've been amazing for the last seven years since the 2019. They're not being bad at all. So you can't turn your nose up at that. You still need to remember that they're really good. If you look at us from 2011 to 2017 or whatever our run was, you'd be happy with beating us. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, it's an ebbs and flows. Hey, you look at England, they beat us in the semi in the 2009 in World Cup. Yeah. I blame, I put a lot of blame on Steve Hansen's shoulders for that because he, he absolutely just picked the wrong team for that game.

50:28Yeah. And then he went back to all of the top quality players and he gave them all one last run out and they did the boys proud. They just picked the wrong team for England. Now, that's the difference between winning and losing a World Cup. That could have in South Africa, you know, the South Africa could roll out in this World Cup, come against New Zealand. Have a bad game, lose and then someone else wins the World Cup. I still think New Zealand had enough talent to win that 2019 World Cup and blew it. Anyway, got me voices going now, he voices going. Mate, what can people do to support us? They can like, share, subscribe, five star review, comment, we love a comment, we love an email, we haven't had an email for ages. Well, we haven't checked anything else. Yeah, I check them always. I just get your crap.

51:28Yeah, Instagram's going, so give us a like over there, give us a comment, give us a message. And if you wanted to go Patreon, then the link is below as well. We thank our Patreon members massively. They literally keep the lights on. They do. Look at those bad boys. Look at this one, hang on, look at this, I will turn it off. Maybe I won't turn it off. Hang on. See? And keep the lights on. But seriously, all the kit that's enabled us to do this body from a distance has all been funded by the Patreon. We're a part. We are. The two Musketeers have become uno. Hey, I was a bit emotional saying goodbye to you. There was a tear that might have rolled down my cheek. That's why I walked off straight away. Anyway, all good things. I'm lucky we can do this now. Absolutely. All right mate, it's always a pleasure doing the body with you.

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