Hollywood Rumors Can Kill A Career

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1:01How far would you go when someone threatens everyone you love? Who can you trust? From Academy Award winner Ben Affleck. Animals, stars Affleck, Carrie Washington, Jillian Anderson, and Steven Young. When a Los Angeles mayoral candidate's son is kidnapped, he and his wife are pulled into a web of deception, forced to make choices that could tear their world apart. Watch animals and select theaters and on Netflix October 9th, rated R. Tap the banner to learn more. Hello and welcome to Juicy Crime. It's because I have a great Juicy crime that I've talked about over the years. It's a Hollywood crime. It's a crime of bad rumors. And I'm excited to have our guest, Alan Salkin. He's a journalist and the host of the new hit, a podcast brought by Hollywood reporter called Jerbal.

2:02Welcome, Alan. I'm so thrilled to be here. So landing this interview, it was like we got to get her. She's the one that's been obsessed with it. You're very important in Jerbal Studies. Well, thank you. Just to kind of get people up to date how this came about is I've had this show for 11 years. I talk about Juicy Scoop history where there is just a story that I remember for years in pop culture and one being this rumor that Richard Gehr, the very famous actor, people were just talking about it. I remember hearing about it in 1989, summer of 1989. And that's what I recall. And that this guy who appeared to be a straight gorgeous actor within a very successful career apparently went into an ER, I believe it, my story was Cedar Sinai in LA and to have a

3:05Jerbal remove from his butt because that is something that people were doing sexually is to have a little Jerbal crawl up there. And I guess the little scratching of the feet or something would give you some great sensation there. And I brought it up over the years, how did this get started, what happened, I don't believe it, nobody believes it anymore. And we talked about it with Kate Casey and then you guys were already completed with this long form podcast. That's so crazy. Yeah, I know we heard your episode, which was in August, I think it dropped. We were just about, yeah, let her to launch in a few weeks. And you were talking about this should be the next big Netflix documentary. And you had you set up, I was like, I just play that as a pitch for the, and we were like, we have something that you're going to love. We're giving you what you want. You don't even know it. We've been toiling, I've been toiling for six years on this. And so let's just talk a little bit about what made you remember it and think about it,

4:10and always go, how did this begin? Because you've done other, which I want to get into some other things later in the show of like you did the Bad Vegan one, which I saw years ago, which was about a woman who owned this very popular vegan restaurant and what happened with her career in that. And so you kind of do these like long form investigative journalism. So tell me a little bit about that. Well, I was sitting, Chris Smith is a director of Bad Vegan. He's also made Tiger King and a hundred foot wave and very successful. And he had interviewed me for Bad Vegan because it was basically based on an article I wrote in Bad Nity Fair. So he suggested what else could we work on maybe. And so we were just kicking ideas around. We're both generation X. And this idea came up of like, well, how the hell that gerbil thing get into our heads?

5:10And we all know the same story, you know, basically. And the version you just told is the kind of basic general orthodox version of it. Richard Gears shows up at Cedar Sinai, not far from here. And with a gerbil problem. And Chris had just enough money. We tried to make a podcast based on this book I wrote about the Food Network, but I hadn't sort of figured out this format yet for me because I'm mostly a writer. I've been in films and stuff. And I just started looking into it basically. And I did what I do. You know, I checked the historical record. Is anything else significant been written about it? There have been some decent articles. But nobody, they all kind of hinge on a few things that kind of bothered me. For instance, if you ask AI, did Richard Gear or anybody stick a gerbil up their butt? It will tell you instantly no. And it will base it on the fact that there are no emergency room records.

6:14And it's like not everything gets written down. And we talk about that later in a different episode than it's dropped yet. But I'm actually curious when, if you are ready to tell me like, I'm curious when you heard it in 89 and what the situation was. Okay. This is what I remember. And you know, my husband gets annoyed that I brag about that I have a great memory. But I feel like I do for like weird things. I remember being in my room where I lived for the summers in between freshmen and software and so on at USC. And my girlfriend called me and told me this story. And her dad was a prominent doctor in the Pasadena area. And she told me and she's like a good Catholic girl. She's not in Hollywood. But she must have heard it and thought there's nobody that I want to tell this more to than my friend Heather McDonald.

7:15So it was summer of 1989 and she said, oh my god. And it was sort of like somebody told my dad that Richard Gear went into the Cedar sign I and had a durable up his butt. And I immediately thought, oh my god, I guess he's secretly gay. Right. And that is, you know, I didn't know that this was a thing people did. But this, it felt like it was such, it was only like one person removed story almost. Yes. So to me it legitimized it kind of. And then throughout the years, you know, you'd hear about it and you kind of realized it wasn't true and you know, he went on to be married a couple more times. And so that there was that. Well, a couple of things. Now, I don't think I said this initially. Like what's curious is the memory aspect of it.

8:17And the podcast is really about, you know, the sort of medicine, you know, under the sugar of this very interesting pop culture legend is why do we remember things that may or may not be true? How do rumors get passed on, especially before the internet? How did virality, viral information spread back then? Can we ever, once a lie starts like this, can it ever be stopped? I mean, we can go back the conspiracy theories, you know, all the famous ones. And you know, can journalism, the work that I do, be brought to bear on a subject like this and actually change anything because we see now it's frustrating. You know, you see the journalist just the news comes and comes and comes and it doesn't seem to matter people. So what's going on? It's just like this mass psychosis and they call this the post-truth era where we don't it doesn't matter what the facts are. It's how we feel about them. But the fact that you, 89 is a perfectly realistic time to, I believe you did not only

9:23a trust your memory that you heard it then, that you actually heard it before in a sort of in the kind of early pre-expulsion of it. Right. Because I remember, so then sophomore year, we lived together in this like Greek honors house. And I remember seeing a poster. I'll be hurt. I'll hurt the jet honors. No, you only needed a three oh, whatever. And anyway, it was a, that's what they called it, whatever. I saw a poster of the pretty woman thing and I'm like, oh, I wonder what that movie is about. I'm excited about it. And the reason the poster was there is there was, some, there was a girl who either her sister or her was the body double for Julia Roberts at USC. She was going to USC and she was a body double. I believe she went on to be page of page jeans. Again, like people correct me if I'm wrong, but anyway. And so I remember going, oh, that's not Julia Roberts body. And then I was always obsessed with seeing Julia Roberts body going, yeah, that wasn't

10:26her ass when she leaned against the car and was like this. It was this girl that, you know, was a body double. But anyway, so if, if what I'm remembering is correct, the rumor came before the movie came out, but the movie most likely was completed and the studios were probably excited about it. About the movie. About the pretty woman being a hit because if I heard it in the summer of 89 and then I saw that poster in the fall of 89, it was like, oh, really? It must or 90 because I just remember where I lived and having not heard of that movie but seeing the poster and like, so, yeah, I'm, you know, in hearing more of your podcasts and stuff and that, you know, this could have been a jealousy rumor. We're going to get into the how it was pinged out in somebody else prior to richer that was also, you know, a television news reporter, but that I like the, I appreciate the idea

11:29of the concept or whatever the research is that the rumors start out of jealousy, especially in Hollywood. I think that's really intriguing. Well, so much in what you're saying, you know, I'm so deep on this subject, so to speak. And the, even if the rumor itself doesn't, and part of the podcast is I explore the possibility that it really happened. It is a true crime sort of structure in that way, but along the way, because I'm very doubtful from the start that it's real, just like you are. But... One of the reasons I stopped believing in, and I'll just, then I'll let you go, is because I remember being young, again, very young, and I held older brothers, and I said this in the episode with Kate a month ago too, that I was seeing like a Rod Stewart album and my brother saying, you know, and again, he appeared to be straight.

12:30And I was like, I was like seven and knew what gay was. Like, I'm the youngest of five. My parents had many gay clients, and I just like knew what it was. And so, whatever, nobody sheltered me from anything. And so I remember being like eight or nine or saying, or a brother being like, oh, his stomach got pumped. And because he had so much seam and sitting in there. And so in my head, every time I'd see him with a new wife or whatever, I'd be like, I wonder if that story was true or if he's bi or whatever. So then with Richard Gehr, seeing that he was very just in the Crawford, but then got divorced with then married another woman. And I love his work. I loved unfaithful. I think he's such a good actor and just so good that I then was like, oh, yeah, that probably wasn't true. And even if it was, so maybe he went through a freaky stage. I just was like, whatever. Right. So, look, number one, straight men have buttholes that have, get stimulated as well.

13:36But the fact that when you, when you heard it, you thought, oh, he must be gay, right? The rumor is definitely a way of ostracizing or labeling people who are often suspected of hiding their homosexuality. And Gehr's image, very early on, from even an American jiggle, oh, his first giant hit that put him on the map. He talks about he's willing to do, you know, quote unquote, tricks if that will in the movie in the movie, he says it. Yes. Gehr's character, Julie, that's right. Yeah. Even in the original shooting script, there's even more reference to that before he was a jiggle over women, he was turning tricks for men on the street. Oh, in the movie. Yes. Well, the script for the movie that this got cut out. Oh. And in fact, the episode that will have... And I could see why, because it's like it takes you kind of out of it. Like you wanted to believe in the fantasy. The fantasy, yes.

14:38And also in the episode that's dropping this tonight, as we taped this, John Travolta was offered the role. I've read Easton Ellis actually talking about this in the episode. He wanted to take the role because he was concerned about his image. He didn't want to take a role. It could have any connotation of being a gay character. And so anyway, Gehr's image very early on. He had photos taken by Robert Maplethorpe and her brits. And so he was, he was toying with this image of himself. And he was sort of in an adjacent to gay culture. So when Rock Hudson dies in 1985, famously of AIDS, and it's shown to be closeted, the suspicion in pop culture and is that, oh, who else is hiding? And this guy Gehr is immediately suspect. So...

15:38And then also just to talk about your memory of it, like the fact that you remember it so well is what's so interesting, right? We... I can barely remember what even kind of coffee I just ordered that I'm drinking right now. But I also, this thing goes in your brain one time. It does a twist and it sticks. And you can never forget it. And it's like it, you know, when you... I remember where I was when, you know, I heard that John Lennon was shot or whatever it is, right? That 9-11, somehow the gerbil thing occupies that level of memory. And why is that? What is special about it? Why does it have... You know, we've learned so much about virality because of COVID and everything else. What are its spike proteins on this virus that make it stick and we can never forget it? Well, and also in speaking about Rock Hudson who was a famous, you know, you know, movie star that, you know, seemed to have wives or I don't even know. So to... So to know that he, you know, died of AIDS, it was like, oh, wow, we were fed this different

16:42story and he had this whole different life. Even with the man who played Mr. Brady in the Brady bunch. And here he was the America's dad. And so it was like this kind of thing. I recently saw a TikTok of somebody who put together like an old black and white, you know, like a people magazine, black and white. And it was two, again, it was... I don't know who the two stars were, but they're two famous male stars. And it was like the bachelor pad. And they lived together and the guy was like, clearly they had a relationship and they did this article of like, oh, isn't this fun? And tell these two guys find the ladies of their life like they are. And... Right. You know, like, yeah, it was a different time where you might have suspected it or you may not have ever, you know, and then been that surprised when it came out that they were. And gear at this time in 89, he hasn't yet... You remember it, he hasn't yet married Cindy Crawford, but he's known, I believe.

17:44Yes, I think you're right. Yeah. Because I have a... And it was only a couple of years. It was like kind of a short marriage. Yeah. No kids, yeah. Right. But I get into that later, but there's a story and a French tabloid that, you know, another part of this is I had to like do analog research. I had to get magazines that aren't online. I had to interview people who's testimony about this has never been taken before and talked to doctors and from Cedar Sinai and a lot of things that, you know, AI doesn't know all these answers. No, I think I started saying that that one of the fact checking of it was that the fact checking site said, well, nobody has ever jirbled. There's no records of it. I said that. But then, you know, in exploring that, it's important to know is that true, even. And so, when these French tabloid puts an article out that suggests that there's divorce in the air for Crawford and Gear, and the reason is that because Cindy is likes women,

18:51Richard likes men, and it's finally going to come out and they're going to get divorced. And there's no Instagram. I remember that. I remember that when we were kids. You know what you... What happened was, it's just a French tabloid, but then they spend at the time, 1990 something, they spend like $30,000 buying a full-page ad in the Times of London, literally saying, we are not gay. We got married because we love each other. We're building a life together. And that sort of gay panic is part of this story as well. Like, being gay would have Hurt Richard Gears career and Hurt Hurt career. Yeah. Hey guys, guess who our next sponsor is? Well, give me a little hint. Yow! You guessed it. It's cat related. And you're right. My girlfriend has a cat and she told me about small. She's absolutely loving it. Smalls makes fresh, human-grade food for cats. It's made from the same stuff you or I would eat, but formulated specifically to help cats

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21:02This year I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at Lululemon.com. I feel like I'm losing my mind. Morning darkness ahead. Verity directed by Michael Schaulalter. Read it R. 179. I'm in the without parrot in theaters tonight. So there's so many informational history and how we and you know you're a professor of

22:07pop culture. You know like and yeah. And the way that these characters occupy their personas and even what we think in you know you and I live in LA, we know some of these people. You know what we think of them based on how they're known publicly. Also what what our friends tell are they really like or what I heard they did this. But is any of that actually true about these people and there's a certain logic right in some of these pop culture stories even people keep bringing up the Maryland manson one to me. What's that one? Supposedly that person had a rib removed so they could auto-fully. Oh, it sucks. The rib being removed thing is also something I've heard about every different star women doing that so they had a smaller way.

23:09Right. They heard it about share. Right, share. What you know she just was blessed with that great body when you see her in those Bob Mackey gowns. You're like no wonder in the world. I mean she's just you know and but also I want to hear I want to say it was like bow there. There was a certain people that that was the thing and it's just started up recently about a new star is doing that. I don't know if it's even physically possible. I don't know that it's a plastic surgery thing that someone could have done but I never heard it so that they could get it. Like the name right. Right. The name Maryland Manson right immediately and Roger is what is this person and in an era before where we are now where there's more tolerance and we don't care as much you know who's what and who sleeps with you and you know thank God we are where we are but this and Rodgney well there's something freaky going on the name Manson which is itself and appropriation of higher pop culture story.

24:09Yeah. The makeup and then even Rod Stewart right suspicion right he's saying he slithers around do you think I'm sexy well what straight man is like do you think I'm like and that other song you know about the divergentizing a girl right right right let me come inside right she's only 17 and you like listen to these words now and well that's another thing even the durable legend right it finds a way to survive and I am very you know I was worried when I start the podcast that I am going to perpetuate this thing and you know and I should say in Richard Geer is a wonderful charitable spiritual politically astute he spent years and years of his life fighting hunger and fighting AIDS in Africa and he is a he's a true gentleman who has earned a lot of respect he may be even more famous at this point for his spirituality and his humanitarian work than for his acting almost so but the acting makes that possible

25:12the thing right. And I was you know worried about perpetuating the story but by even retelling it and now I think the way the reason that we people still tell it and they do not not only you guys on on you know your show but this show but you know Chronicle this Conan O'Brien Joe Rogan so many people are still telling this joke and talking about it but in a way what we're looking at now is can you believe we ever believe something like this. And also I'm still getting emails and stuff about it's true. Oh it's true my mom was a nurse my dad was a doctor and he came home and he had you know literally like gerbil blood on his or you know he came in the scrubs from this procedure because he worked at Cedar Sinai and so on and he came to the breakfast table you know

26:14and so I'm I and this is somebody I know you know and I'm talking to them and like this person saw gerbil the actual blood that actually happened you know so they it is nice to think that people don't believe it but that's not true people do still believe that wonder is this possible did this happen. So then what we mentioned on the show when Kate was on was years later a gay man friend of mine told me do you know how that rumor got started and I said no and he said now I want to say which now they doesn't go with the timeline that he was with Cindy Crawford but the story that I recall is two gay men again a gay guy is telling the story two gay men were at a restaurant we're excited to talk to Richard gear he was rude to them blew them off and they are the ones who started it and it went like game of telephone while you know fire

27:19all of that and that is not true according to your you know your thing and also the timeline doesn't really work and because it didn't come from that. Well I don't think it came from anyone gay I think it came well the I just straight angry people I don't know what it was but that was I thought well that's weird and I'm like and I wonder if the people when I believed it I thought I wonder if this two guys meant for it to go so crazy or were they just telling it at a party as like you know ha ha wink wink like I don't know that they sat down wrote it together and then went out telling everybody everywhere and then it went but that was what that was the only other thing I ever heard until your show about the origin story. Well I'm I'm glad that even in the just the first two episodes right I've brought some facts that you're able to apply to your situation and think well at least this part in this part

28:20can't be true and so in a way one person at a time we're clearing memories and I'm rescuing your synapses a little bit you know I always think I wish I could forget all the episodes of the Brady Bunch that I saw as a kid like what a waste of my brain at the time like I wish I could remove it over time when you start thinking about different things you don't think so much about you know although you do right the trip to Hawaii and the taboo thing and the bad luck but um oh something else you know say about what about just removing the memories and that um that we oh I just got I just got a note from somebody who said no it didn't happen at Cedar Sinai but what happened was uh and this is a person from British Columbia around Vancouver he came to a hospital it happened in LA but I heard that he came to a hospital in British Columbia because he wanted to avoid publicity in LA to have it removed so people I know were at the hospital in BC

29:22and it's like oh so he flew on a plane with a gerbil in his ass exactly what did that comfortable like the depressurization situation must have been very uncomfortable yeah um but this idea that I'm special I'm on the inside I know something right is we everyone loves that I know something special about somebody famous or a special incident and I think the the viral nature of this it relies on so many little things to to perpetuate and that's one of them you know we know that viruses themselves the real viruses like appropriate DNA from lots of different sources and they mutate in order to survive and that's what this I think it's my sort of working theory is like what what DNA did this virus this viral information take it's not doesn't have a brain of its own but it has a kind of evolutionary quality brain you know that I know it's like weirdly high-minded but that's you know if anything that's my specialty right I bring the I bring the smart

30:23to the stupid right you know maybe maybe this is you too like you you bring a smart analysis to crazy shit that's going on in the culture well you know in like listening to your your podcast and and everything I remember you know what happened to me and I said a throwaway joke line on theobons podcast that cost me my television career for 10 years and it happened 10 years ago and what happened was um I went on this podcast and he Theo said oh um when I went to Chelsea lately where I wrote the show it seemed like everyone was walking on egg shells and I said oh yeah I feared of losing my job every day something to that effect they took it out of context they put it all over the news you couldn't even listen to the podcast Chelsea went on Howard Stern in January of 2026 2016 and he brought it up and she said I could have fired her years ago I wanted to because I

31:24because I knew she was selling stories about me to the tabloids in exchange of getting myself Heather McDonald in the tabloids I was listening to this as I was driving I'm listening to this episode of Howard Stern about myself to hear a lie like that so completely untrue I was in a panic I had just started my podcast this was in 2016 so the tabloids were a big deal now they mean nothing you know the Us Weeks leasing stuff yeah now they mean nothing and if there's you know but back then it meant a lot so I was I was like I don't know what to do and it didn't just stop at Howard Stern the biggest radio show on earth okay it went when you William spoke about it with our face as an I I appeared to be a greedy ungrateful thirsty friend who right they forced you to do

32:24over her boss that gave her this great opportunity to be in an Us Weekly and I was like this is in true and I tried to get in touch with us weekly and they ignored me to try to defend me and I was like oh my god I mean and I'm reading these things about how horrible I am and then the talk talks about it what do you do when you've been betrayed by a friend and the most I could do was go on my show which had only been out for barely a year and say it's not true it's not true I look back now and in reading in listening here saying I'm like I always thought that somebody told Chelsea that and you know she always had so much going on and there would be times where you could tell her something and there'd be a time where you know I remember one time she was and she didn't want to do red book magazine and she committed to it and the people were were stressed what are we gonna do and I said I know what we're gonna do and I walked into her makeup room and I go did you see Reese's with her spoon on red book magazine doesn't she'll great great and then the thing was

33:29back on so it's like I would know how to kind of like how her mind works and looking back I think I know who said it to her now she was my my superior I think she was jealous that I was starting to get a little bit of publicity on my own I had a second book out I did hire a publicist so I was in the magazine very small but here they're a little review of my book or whatever and said that to her one day and it stuck on her brain and then when she saw the quote and it pissed her off and she didn't listen to a whole episode which was very self-deprecating and only had to do with me just being in Hollywood and afraid of losing a job I love not reflective of her more about my own fear and anxiety of being somewhat insecure woman I you know that is what then came out with her you know the way her personality is like oh fuck you you know and I remember her saying you weren't in a concentration camp you were opening for me in Dapa and I'm like oh my god like I agree like what an asshole I look like but it wasn't fucking true and still to this day I get

34:37about two comments a month under something in social media isn't she the one who sold stories about Chelsea handler to benefit herself and it cost me a television career like I had all these things cooking and they died and thank god I built juicy scoop which is a legit success yeah and I'm always grateful the way things laid out because I wouldn't have worked so hard on it I might have given up on year two and I wouldn't be here today being having complete autonomy over my career and not being stressed that paramount is leaving or not and so I'm grateful for every single step of the thing but that is a much smaller scale I guess except that he he continued being successful too I had to I took a serious like like I was you know and I don't know in the thing is you don't know I don't know what has been said about me in rooms with important people for the last 10 years of the kind of character I might have had when it was all 100% not true now we're

35:43getting somewhere yeah and you know thank you for sharing that story and I I'm sorry that happened you and you know I have a warning at the top of each episode and it changes a little bit and it's sort of a trigger warning it says well no animals are harmed in the making of this podcast but there's other ones where I say you know there's there's descriptions of sexual situations and and it should almost be a trigger warning to if you ever had gossip spread about you this is going to make you think about shit and maybe retraumatize you and you know listen not now I want to go interview Chelsea yeah I want Chelsea sitting here and I wanted this fucking to get hashed out but by the way it's never going to also my podcast itself is the out the result in a way of me getting laid off from a job that I loved at the New York Times years ago for bullshit right that that I can't even and how many times of I can feel your passion and you're you're you're never going to get over it 100% now you know I mean look at me 10 years later I mean I'm still like yes

36:48just telling you it's like you know and and I've seen Chelsea and she did write me a couple weeks later like sorry that that I heard you went through a tough time of this it doesn't matter she never retracted it right she let it go she didn't want to bring attention to it if someone asked her about it she said oh no we're fine right but never said you know what I was fed some misinformation apparently it was never true how they're never did that I mean I was always like I was making the nice writers salary why would I be selling a story about someone who tells everything on herself anyway every night there's no secret what she doesn't like a cheese anymore she's on a diet like what kind of scoop could I give never seen her do an elicit drug in front of me we did shows we had a couple cocktails and we went home I had no nothing I could ever say that she didn't already talk about herself so I was like what would I say I only spoke highly of her interviews when asked right but look your your what you're doing right now yeah the voting and

37:51letting us know the pain that that caused you your viewers and listeners feel for you and that helps them think if I ever heard that rumor I know it now not to be true or it's hurt this but it makes them change and Richard gear the guy in our rumor here has my argument is he is not emoted about this he will the few comments he's been oh it doesn't bother me I know it did I have sources that we're gonna hear later in my podcast who tell me exactly what he thought the theories he has of the case just like you have theories of the case and and by the way and the fact that you're still getting comments on it like and I do and I also want to say I do get things from the juicy skippers who are my dedicated answers we'll go in and say that's not true that never happened and I too asked Chad she PT just to see what it would say today and it said no she venomantly denied it and they explained it because I had explained it back then like on my podcast

38:52when I wasn't as popular or whatever and you know I thought back later on when things like that have happened you know again it's happened like two other times where someone has lied about me on their radio show Jeff Lewis saying horrible things not that you get names yeah Jeff Lewis he did he said I was a thief and all this I prove this whole thing not to be true and but like I didn't in a smart way but still you know and that's why my sister who's a defense attorney always says it's hard to be a defense attorney than the prosecutor when you when you see the person with a handcuffs being dragged out of their house that's the first image you see right now you're going to defend that this person didn't do this it's like that the person that puts out the false hood first there will be people that will always say well you know there's got to be some truth to it right sometimes there isn't you know sometimes there isn't

39:56whenever fall comes back around it always feels like a fresh start this year I've been layering in some styles from the new Luleleman fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it Luleleman's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces so I can just wake up throw on a matching set out of jacket or a fleece and head out knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at luleleman.com Hey it's Kelly Rowland you may not know this but I have eczema so I get how it can steal your time but why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about epglyss epglyss lubricizmab lbkz a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema also called a topic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies

40:57ebglyss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids don't use if you are allergic to ebglyss allergic reactions can occur that can be severe eye problems can occur tell your doctor if you have newer worsening eye problems you should not receive a live vaccine when treated with ebglyss before starting ebglyss tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection paid partnership with respect your time ask your doctor about ebglyss and visit epglyss.com or call 1-800-LilyRX or 1-800-545-5979 it looks to maybe season 2 of gerbil is 12 episodes on you and Chelsea I mean it is it is juicy I do talk a lot about it because in examining it you know um yeah but I also think like there is a theory especially now much more so now when someone gets some bad social media press on them whatever sometimes not addressing it in today's world will make it go away in about four to five days yeah sometimes depending on what it is you know if it's not something so heinous that you feel like

42:01you need to defend then sometimes the I would advise people don't address especially if the especially if the negativity is coming from someone who's below you in the cloud sphere you know and they are kind of doing it to get clout so then you go hey this tiktokger said this about me and now everybody's watching that tiktok and that girl gains 50,000 people and there's that so like there is an interesting way of like don't comment you know about the thing don't act like you ever saw the nasty tiktok about you because this person is beneath you and they're just dying to have your career but then there's times where you need to say it yes but it won't it won't matter because or if they think that the more popular person being that Chelsea's a more popular person has a beef with you then they're like I don't want a higher Heather right because and piss off Chelsea and all of Chelsea's people and the people who feed off Chelsea yes yeah like we don't want and even when it all went down I had you know friends and press ask them can they respond and they were like no comment even though they knew I didn't do it they didn't want to defend me because

43:06it could put them well look at light Hollywood reporter right is why am I even at the Hollywood reporter with this the amount of people I pitch this is a this thing is already a hit you know and it's writing its own virality and I'm grateful for that right but the amount of pitches that I made and it cost a few hundred grand to make this the pay everybody it took so long but like I refer to it as the butthole and the rat problem and the Richard gear problem like whoa we don't want to be in the butthole and the rat you know business with a celebrity you know so only because really I have a friend who's the editor of the Hollywood reporter who championed me and I was able to actually talk to the some of the really smart executives of Hollywood reporter and say look this is what I'm doing I'm bringing journalism I'm not like ha ha you know I'm gonna bring this thing up just so I can get attention you know I end it up there and as we talked over before we

44:08started filming like we're the the ad if you listen right now there's no ads why is that what's going on so well let's hope you get some ads but when I do now tell me if I remember this right okay I do remember him's Richard gear referencing something to the effect of yeah people think I had sex with the chicken yes I didn't have sex with the chicken was that on a talk show or was that where was that I think you did say it was on a talk show and and I don't think you're right okay one of the and you know maybe I read it somewhere I don't know you and by the way I may be wrong he did say he said it in an interview I believe it's with us weekly at home I have a copy of the magazine and it's not another thing that's not easy to find is that actual article or he says that okay but uh yes and so reporters who are trying to get cute with him they get him to talk about the journal rumor will say to him the they figure out the question ask is are there any

45:09rumors about you that you wish weren't out there or something right and they and hello and he is a master at deflecting and saying the other thing which is yeah I fuck to check it right he's making a joke and then he goes back and he says uh yeah it's okay because lots of guys are fuck chickens out here by by here he means Beverly Hills or where the interview's happening the Hollywood like in lots of other you know all of us actors fuck chickens right he's making light of it to deflect he's not saying I didn't stick a hamster see I think that was a mistake I do too I think you had to be like I'm glad you brought it up now that it's been this many years you know this is like you know how do you but you know back then um right there wasn't the crisis you're thinking yes and you're and also sometimes I know this sometimes where I will reference something or make a joke or whatever and I'll see that like half the people did not get it you know they didn't get

46:11what I was referencing they didn't get what I was like joking about that I was you know and so in that case when everybody thinks people are deviant and Hollywood and stuff yes that could have even turned them off more like what you know because they in in the podcast I try to speak slowly I try to overexplain you know that my friends always I have this journalism joke I always make as with certain papers you have to say they were playing football a popular game in America in which people throw a pig skin covered you know which it's not a single actually a leather covered inflated ball around attempting to you know you could go and go and go but you're right people and these fragments of information and these thoughts that they have and yeah they miss here you know that I've been also I wrote an article years ago about Galker about the the commenting section which that was a really pioneering section for the commenters the idea that you could have power by snarkly you know saying stuff on an article that was it's self-snarky

47:12and so I but I had to I have to relearn that lesson myself because when the Hollywood reporter posted the initial sort of video trailer for in the podcast is audio but the amount of people who said well you're just making fun of Richard gear or you're just and I could just said to every one of them right just listen please fucking listen yeah you know and they're and but it's like don't do it don't you know they're gonna listen to they're not gonna listen there's gonna be keyboard warriors and but it hurts and it's a real power and I'm look I'm sorry it happened to you and it's you're right you're probably never ever gonna get the last comment on it as long as you live right it's gonna be one of those things it just still will just pop up you know whatever but um but you know like it is what it is I'm doing fine and life yeah I feel like I'm stronger for all of it and I'm in a better place career wise then you know if things were peachy keen with us I might have you know tried to do something else that would not still be running 11 years later like I don't know

48:16I I um there's a secret New York Times alumni Facebook group and uh some great famous names post stuff on there and I have composed but I haven't posted because this six years of work on this thing is me saying look what I can do this is me at the hopefully still near the peak of my powers still got my marbles about me and I can take this and do something really I hope great this may be my masterpiece my gerbil podcast and I've thought about posting and on that Facebook group saying you know I'm still fucking angry about this bullshit and about it it was no accusations that I did anything wrong that's not why I the New York Times was making cutbacks I was one of the last people hired it was a union thing but I'm still angry about it you know and I want to say fuck you right you know take a gerbil podcast you know this is who you let go you want you know

49:17and and so yeah but but I never would have made this I never would have written my book about the food network I wouldn't know you know be going around town still eating on that book and there's a TV show maybe it's gonna happen out of that so we do have some of us for whatever reason just have a I'm not gonna let this thing take me down and luckily neither you nor I have been you know but I do remember at the time yeah I was like if I won the lottery or if I got at the time like whatever an amount that I thought I was like I'm want to quit I was literally like I want to quit at all the podcast wasn't making much money at all I was still trying to just stand up on the weekends I you know I didn't have anything like cooking in the works for like a steady gig I had these three kids and I was just kind of like I would love to just put my phone away and disappear because I feel like the world hates me and I'm

50:17such a dork that did this thing that no one liked and no one would have ever known about how to not been for this TV show and here I you know did this awful thing which isn't true but that was what the narrative was and I was just like and I just you know whatever let's enough about me I want to get into okay I'm in interview or two you know I'm very interested in the vegan story again well so remember that doc but not totally yeah um and if anyone's watching this they say in the doc I look like weird Adam Sandler so you probably can see it now all of the guy downstairs remind me that guy was with Richard prior in the movies I was like yeah Gene Wilder I get that something but anyway bad vegan was about a restaurant restaurant tour in New York who had a vegan restaurant raw vegan restaurant name is Sarma Melgaylis and I knew her because I'd written about her problematic ex-husband or whatever who she started the restaurant with and split from and I got

51:23a news alert when I was out here I'd used to live in New York and I was in LA and I got a news alert that Sarma had been arrested at a motel near Dollywood made she a rest in peace um for having ordered been on the run from the law and they caught her because she ordered a cheese pizza and they tracked it by her cell phone and so she was arrested and I was like what the hell is going on you know I know Sarma and as I looked into it it turned out that she had met basically a con man or an alleged con man who had brainwashed her and convinced her of many things including that he could make her pit bull live forever and help her give her the sort of ethereal metaphysical power to make the whole world vegan and she was somehow she believed this and so she was funneling all the money that she made from her restaurants to this guy who was a gambling addict who would you know

52:27throw it away on slot machines and everything else and and who by the way she met on Alec Baldwin's Twitter threads um because Alec had come to the restaurant wanting to date Sarma and they did at least initially you know consider her romance and it was when Alec was at the restaurant to meet to hang out with Sarma that he met Hilaria right and so this all sort of beautifully now the backstory the alleged backstory to that alleged is that Hilaria had a friend who was like you got to go to this restaurant because Alec Baldwin is there all the time and that is when she was identifying as Spanish right and she had the accent going and she was doing like ballroom Spanish dancing or whatever and allegedly he was fast infatuated with Selma Hayek who was his co-star at the time for like a arc on 30 rock and so he hears her you know being like oh um how do you

53:36say da da da da and then he was like I have to meet this woman yes and so then they meet and to this day this is this is the other thing I would like you to work on because now she's now they had their little thing yes and their little show and she just was on like the the world's dumbest or whatever the accents like gone she just kind of has like a little fast voice like this like oh okay Alec whatever like it's not really the Spanish anymore and the fact that like that this whole this thing I will still be fantasy because I am convinced I am convinced that he never asked her where she went to high school I don't think he ever cared I think he thought he was marrying a Spanish girl because her parents had a house in Spain that they bought after a vacation and not until the how do you say cucumber and that whole thing I believe Amy Schumer was the one that or somebody tweeted about

54:38it first calling her out and it was almost kind of like how that one comedian reference that Bill Cosby is a rapist and then people looked into it well it's like it took one person kind of says it and then people go oh my god look did did it and then someone did all the research and I feel badly I don't remember who really tipped it off I don't think it was Amy Schumer somebody else but Amy Schumer made some joke about her and her yoga poses which then sparked someone to like look into it that was it and they went deep dive well what's what's so interesting there's so many things interesting about that story but at least a good part of what you just said we know to be true right and and and and then it dovetails with this other story that I did because if if Alec had never been infatuated with Sarma he would not have met he wouldn't met somebody else because Alec was right at that moment in his life kind of where I am now like you know not young and still wanting to have kids and fix me up and so there he was so that's a real thing that happened

55:46and a crazy story right so so and you know the the bad vegan thing you know it was it was a rotor for vanity fair was a great article I was really proud of it it gets into coercive control and real issues about you know coercive control and abuse and it's very interesting in that way and then the doc that Sarma does not like how the doc comes out because she thinks that it lames her and it's not clear that she's a victim and there's so much to do that because there's some like investors or something that got screwed over too right yes well people find other people besides her got financial she ended up you know convicted of a crime we're pleading guilty to a crime which actually and and unfortunately Sarma because she has her own issues she almost screwed up the whole El Chapo I mean this is this she ends up having some kind of romantic relationship with one of her this lawyer Jeffrey Lichtman who's actually El Chapo's lawyer at the and that comes out on the front page of the New York Post I once got a call you know

56:49and I don't want to get into it like I had no I'm not gonna talk about it but um anyway so all of these crazy things coalesce and yet um the the the the durable thing right which comes out of that world all you know this idea of well what's really going on um if I like I started my sentence saying something totally different but no you were saying about okay oh try to remember you know three different things yeah yeah yeah Alec Baldwin thing that started with the Alec Baldwin thing and this Selma thing and how she didn't like yes well he he was at a point in his life when he wanted to meet a woman to have kids with and Sarma did not want to have kids with okay and so then that this whole he he meets this woman in this and as far as what you're saying like he didn't care that you know he wanted he wanted a woman of a certain age who could have his children he was at a point in his life when maybe he had regrets you know Alec Baldwin it was just a guy yeah you know he's a man and he had regrets about things he did in his life

57:54and choices with Ireland who by the way Ireland his daughter vehemently defended Hilaria and was like why are people being so mean like so what if she wants to have an accident yeah but the bigger the bigger thing was in identifying that she was Latina she got all these opportunities that another Latina up and coming reporter you know model whatever would have gotten and it put her in a category was like oh let's call Alec Baldwin's wife because she can do stuff for Cinco de Mayo and like things like that and it was just that's where by you know because it was like well who was hurting this and it's like well there were people if I mean it's hard to say specifically but in doing and then identifying as something that you're not whether people say some people queerbait now you know to try to get into a category that might get them more work and you're like but you're not really getting it so juicy scoop right the name of this show and uh you're it could sound like oh well they were giving you guys all this great little gossip but

58:58but and you are you're a master but also you're right it touches on this what interests me as well identity who's yet who are the people harmed in these kinds of things what are the bigger issues talk touched on um and in you know I don't want to I don't need to drag it back to my thing but it is also about like is lying is telling something that's not true harmful in any way should we oh if everyone was just telling the truth and not lying what kind of world would this be you know other than white lies right and it's like fascinating it's the same thing with Elizabeth Holmes one drop that she changed her voice and everything and I think it's really interesting with someone changes their voice for like years you know or um I always talk about this one uh real house wife storyline that happened where this woman Vicki was dating this man Brooks any lied and said he'd cancer and the whole cast while they're filming Megan King Edmunds kind of

1:00:01figures it out that he didn't go to this hog hospital he never had the cancer and to this day then she eventually breaks up with him and she's like well I was duped too and I'm always like when was the moment between the couple whether it's Alec and Halaah where where she is like okay I wasn't really Spanish I started doing the accent it stuck with me you know I just have such a love for it like was there anything or or was he such a man that he was just like I don't care because he would sit on talk shows and say you know my wife is Spanish and he would imitate her and he would get a big laugh he was doing like stand-up bits about having a Spanish wife and so I was like wait when do you kind of go wait a second like we've had eight kids together whatever it is and I didn't know that they're not like if they did 23 and me there's no Spanish blood in you like that is that's crazy just like when Vicki made a finally realize some Brooks like you're not sick

1:01:02at all like didn't have cancer like well when does someone when does that reveal like that's what I want to see in movies that's what I want like that's what I would love to hear from any of those four people was that conversation ever happened with your partner where you have to come clean you know Alec is known a bit as a hothead and you know he yells at paparazzi and gets it but I I'm not I wouldn't say I'm I can't even no I'm not even friends with him he probably every time I ever see him and I've I've seen him a dozen times and written about him in many different ways interviewed him even seen him like parties in the Hamptons on the beach and but I do know him to be somebody who does try to make amends for the things he's done wrong and to try to get to the truth on things I mean his his podcast is called what is it called again here's the thing or something and he said that for a long time to still do it I you know what I never I always feels like it's

1:02:04not going anymore and then I check and it is yeah um but he probably does it sporadically yeah the great boys he's great yeah I mean he's a great personality and a great actor yeah amazing um so I I think probably he did like there was a point where he thought oh what was I doing where where was I wrong in this what you know and who they probably have had that conversation but I mean when you think about how many people um there's certain men and women that have a gift that I've always been fascinated by that are kind of chameleons to get the person to fall in love with them you know like all of a sudden like you know we're dating and you're into fishing or whatever and I'm like oh my god I love fishing I've never been fishing in daily life I don't want to go fishing I don't want to go camping and I act like that's me I'm a nature girl let's go to REI and like go and then you know they're just and the same thing with with grifter guys you know it can happen and they can get that that next hook and most of the time the truth gets revealed but sometimes

1:03:11I'm like they just decide to keep playing this part until because the playing the part was working out he loved it she was it was a time to be not white so it was helping her career enormously and and everyone thought where we have a nice diverse hire here yeah and we also get Alec to come on the show as well so let's have her do the cooking all the time on the today show and all this stuff and right you know it reveals the culture of we don't really care about the details we just hear worry about the surfaces of things right ugly so so interesting the podcast is durable it comes out weekly but there's what two or three episodes out now yeah there'll be three and so check it out and where can they follow you if they want to write you or anything mostly it's just ALL EN Allen Salkin SALK IN that's most of my handles are that and there's Alan Salkin.com you can there's a contact form there so you're on Instagram and yes okay cool

1:04:14and everything for me is at Heather McDonald's on that net but please subscribe leave a review do it all thank you I don't ask often for you guys to do that but you know what it'd be nice to to have you guys write another review about how much you love juicy crimes and juicy scoop thank you you when fall comes back around there's a sense of a reset and new pieces from Lulu lemons fall drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines as your calendar fills easy to layer styles meet the demands of your day and as you challenge yourself to try even more versatile sets transition with you the Lulu lemon fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence

1:05:19whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over check out the latest arrivals in store and on Lulu lemon.com now how far would you go when someone threatens everyone you love who can you trust from Academy Award winner Ben Affleck animals stars Affleck Carrie Washington Jillian Anderson and Stephen Young when a Los Angeles mayoral candidate son he and his wife are pulled into a web of deception forced to make choices that could tear their world apart watch animals and select theaters and on Netflix October 9th rated R tap the banner to learn more think GLP ones are too expensive on row you can access FDA approved GLP one weight loss treatment at your lowest possible price if you're covered start with rows free insurance checker just upload your insurance card to see if you're covered for certain GLP one shots whether you use insurance or pay cash row helps you find an option that works best for you plus rows membership plans help you save even more see if you qualify at row dot co slash health our ex

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