GOP’s Jack Smith “bombshell” collapses over Hawks vs. Hawkeyes mix-up

0:00The real cost of a break-in isn't your valuables, it's the feeling that your home stopped being safe. Simply safe keeps danger away from your family with three layers of protection. One, smart AI cameras and live US-based agents help stop intruders before they break in. Two, we sound the alarm at points of entry. Three, our agent's request emergency response. Play and starting around a dollar a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplysafe.com slash SXM. Outdoor to turns plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplysafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. Watch Ali Velshi five nights a weekend prime time on MSNow. Breaking news in the last hour. The 11th hour with Ali Velshi. Week nights 11 PM eastern on MSNow. And find more on the MSNow app. Tonight on All In. Did you go to an NBA game between the Golden State Warriors and the Atlanta Hawks on February 3rd, 2024? I'm sorry, could you say that again? A rising maga star comes for the special prosecutor.

1:01I don't think you know that we have this stuff. So I'll give you a second to process it so you don't, you know, purge yourself. And a Senate faceplant for the ages ensues. I recall going to a university of Maryland basketball game where Caitlin Clark was playing. Could it then be that university if I was the Hawkeyes? Tonight, Senator Adam Schiff and Carol Lenning on Jack Smith D'Arajerman syndrome and the party of Trump. I'm glad you're trying to rehabilitate the witness, but it's not your time. You are calling a witness a dirt. I presented him with text messages about him wanting to meet with people. And 35 days away from the election, how to understand midterm polling unlike anything we've seen in decades. Sure, there's no question this will be the biggest thing you've ever been. It is the biggest thing I've ever done. I've done a s*** job as president. When All In starts right now.

2:04Good evening from New York. I'm Chris Hayes. There are 35 days into the midterm elections. Every measurement we have in public opinion shows people are increasingly mad at Donald Trump and the Republican party. But, Senator Republicans are hard at work for the American people. You may not know this, but last night in the Wii hours, they stayed up late. They held a pivotal legislative vote, not to end the war in Iran, not to address gas prices or deal with diesel imports or just to cost the living or the skyrocketing mortgage rates. So, they pushed a bill that regulates how much college athletes, but not coaches, can make off their own name, image and likeness, and gives the NC delay some exemptions from antitrust laws. Isn't that the kind of action you've been craving out of your Republican-run government? Isn't that the most pressing legislative challenges country faces? Well, if it isn't, never fear. They also had a big showstopper plan for today. They hauled out former special counsel Jack Smith in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee to re-litigate his prosecutions of Donald Trump for all of Donald Trump's, well, obvious criminal activity.

3:10And the star of this mock show trial was set in advance. Republican Senator Eric Schmidt, he's the former Missouri Attorney General who unsuccessfully sued to overturn Obamacare and a 2020 election. A guy with Thessalon ambition for higher office, I think it's fair to say. Last year, he established his far right bonafides in a blood and soil nationalist speech titled, What is an American that critics called a white supremacist greed. And this morning, just hours before he was set to grill Jack Smith axioms reported that Schmidt was drawing buzz as a possible running mate for JD Vance in 2028. Everyone was all at hitter. The table was set for Eric Schmidt's big day. You see, Senator Schmidt had a conspiracy theory, one embraced by the far right, that Jack Smith had colluded with other Trump prosecutors like Fannie Willis in Fulton County, Georgia. And Eric Schmidt believed he had discovered evidence of the coordination he had the receipts, and he had a big plan to absolutely nail Jack Smith with them.

4:10And then Jack Smith would purge or himself, and Eric Schmidt would be the big here on Fox News, and maybe go on to be JD Vance's VP, and well, who knows how far he could go. Unfortunately, it really didn't work out that way at all. Did you go to an NBA game between the Golden State Warriors and Atlanta Hawks on February 3rd, 2024? I'm sorry, could you say that again? Did you go to an NBA game between the Golden State Warriors and Atlanta Hawks on February 3rd, 2024? What city would that be in Atlanta? No, okay. So your testimony today is that you did not go to a Hawks game on February 3rd, 2024, is that correct? I have no recollection of that. Okay, is it your testimony that you were not in Atlanta on February 3rd, 2024?

5:10Let me just give you a little context. The day before Fannie Willis came clean with her affair with the prosecutor. You know the Atlanta prosecutor that was also trying to get Trump. The next day, were you in Atlanta? I do not believe so. Did you ever go to Atlanta during your time as special counsel? No, I really don't think so. It's possible I flew through the Atlanta airport on the way to Florida, but I do not have a recollection of going to Atlanta. I definitely did not go to a Hawks game. Okay, did you ever meet Nathan Waiter Fannie Willis in your time as special counsel? No. What would you say if I had a series of text messages from your team that said you were in Atlanta at a warrior Hawks game on February 3rd, 2024, the day after Willis and Wade announced their affair? I don't think you know that we have this stuff. So I'll give you a second to process it so you don't you know, purge yourself.

6:15You just took it down really quick if I could look at that again. Is this chairman? Can we give the witness a copy so he can see what's being read to him? Well, I think you've already sufficiently and so I want to I want to run through. We'll put it in a file if you can respond. You've I think you've already purge yourself, but. Did you and we are office and we see it. Can we see it? Did you or your office seek this is my time senator. I have time to criticize my question. Go ahead, ranking member. You have weaponized the Department of Justice against political enemies to an extent that has never happened in the history of this country. You will go down as a total dirt bag. I yield my time. Okay. Wait a second. Eric Smith is saying that Jack Smith attended an NBA game in Atlanta, Georgia at a perfect time to clue with the Trump prosecutor there. Now keep in mind it's a metro area of like six million people. So he says he's in the same city as these other two people. That's his that's what he's got.

7:18His smoking gun was this poster board of texts, which for some reason they only held up for a few seconds until Louisiana Center John Kennedy wanted to get in on the action. Why do you have a piece of that glory proudly stepped up to get on the we we got you. One text reads Hey man is one oh nine row one reserve for Jack and Smith was clearly confused. You can see it on his face like he doesn't look like a man who's lying and looks like a man who's like Atlanta. I don't think I was Atlanta and then you got a closer look at the text. Can the witness be allowed to come in now that you can see the chart. Should we maybe give him the chance to look at it and then go back at it so he can see I think I can address it. Okay. Do you want to get this isn't in my time. But yes, Mr Smith, please address it. This is very briefly in this if this is the correct basketball game.

8:19I recall going to a university of Maryland basketball game where Caitlin Clark was playing right around that time. And the Marshall service was there with me. You could check if that was the exact date. It was Maryland playing Iowa. I think February of 2024, but again that's you can check that out if that's what we're talking about. University of Iowa. Is it the hot. Yes. Could it then be that University of Iowa is the hot guys. Could that be it and maybe before we show this kind of thing. I know, but if he was at an Iowa game, is that correct? It was because Caitlin Clark was coming to Maryland to play. I know, but that might be the confusion over the names of the team. But perhaps you should have looked at it more carefully. Who's questioning is this by the last term? Are you are you using your time center? Is this what this is? No, are we just are we just having like an open session here? I just I just I'm just trying to rehabilitate the witness, but it's not going on.

9:23I'm calling a witness a dirt. I presented him with text messages about him wanting to meet with people that could have obviously been related to the prosecution. That was coordinated with his office in it. Well, I'm going to begin my questions now, but I think that people should have their back straight before they choose someone of being a dirt bag and not get the team. I stand by that statement. The club of terms. You have the teams wrong. Sir. Mr. Chairman. I'm going to go to the floor, go proceed with your question. Thank you. From the state of Minnesota where we have the go first. So there's not a lot of confusion. There's not a lot of professional teams with those names. I mean, wow. That's like a it's like a stress stream. It's like a waking nightmare. Just an absolute waking nightmare. The dawning realization that your big moment that you got it completely wrong. Senator Eric Smitt and Missouri, the one calling someone else a dirt bag, which he said he stood by, thought he had proof that Jack Smith went to an Atlanta Hawks MBA game.

10:28But Jack Smith actually went to a Hawkeyes college game that was much closer to his home in College Park, Maryland. That's about 700 miles away from Atlanta. Hawkeyes, not Hawks. Sure enough, might have touched found. Emma's now confirmed video from the Hawkeyes game in Maryland showing Jack Smith sitting section 109 first row. If only Republican staffers had done that kind of research, there's only if they had actually looked into this or done any due diligence or cared to know whether something was true or not or wrong or right. Today, you can see some of those staffers along with Senator Katie Britt of Alabama, who in this is crucial context used to be a Senate staffer was for quite a while herself reacting to this all playing out. I recall going to a university of Maryland basketball game where Caitlin Clark was playing right around that time. And the Marshall service was there with me. You could check if that was the exact date. It was Maryland playing Iowa. I think February of 2024. But again, that's you can check that out if that's what we're talking about.

11:40I mean, the amazing thing about all of this is that they really expected this to be bombshell news because far right influencers are ready to boost Schmidt as soon as the questioning started. The whole thing was like a set piece, almost like they were all tipped off in advance. The big moment was going to happen. Podcasts are Benny Johnson posted the video to note, Senator Eric Schmidt just caught Jack Smith, purring himself in the stand in his testimony. Jack Smith is stunned. Hours later, the post was deleted. Fox, so Sean had any did it too posting the video exchange or the message. Senator Eric Schmidt puts Jack Smith on the spot in the Senate judiciary here with an hours that post was deleted as well. In fact, our production team watch Fox News all day and they they talked about Miss Rachel, of course. They talked about a Democrat drinking boba tea. And yes, they talked about Jack Smith hearing, but with the exception of one show, they are avoiding this part of the story like the plague. But if the hearing was successful, one thing is that we are all talking about what a absolute fool. What a complete doofus Eric Schmidt looks like.

12:41Instead of the testimony of Jack Smith that his investigation had and I quote him here, proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Donald Trump committed crimes on January 6th in the stolen documents case before Trump's DOJ shut it down. Senator Adam Schiff, Democratic California sits on the Senate Judiciary Committee. You got to see this chaos up close today. He joins me now. Well, I just I just as someone I watch the zoom in on on Senator Brit a bunch of times just because I can only imagine as someone who for by all accounts was an extremely adept Senate staffer, I should say, Katie Brit for Senator Shelby. This dawning awareness on her face and obviously you've practiced you've been a you know, you've been a criminal prosecutor, you've been in court. I just did you understand what was going on and when did it dawn on you? What exactly had happened? So they teach you in law school not to ask a question you don't know the answer to when you're cross examining someone. I don't always agree with that philosophy. Sometimes you have to take a risk and ask a question you don't know the answer to.

13:45But you generally don't want to accuse someone of perjury and call them a dirt bag if you don't know your facts. That's pretty basic and the point where I knew they've made a colossal screw up was after Schmidt had gone through his your dirt bag and you're clearly concealing a boy we got you your trouble for perjury. Right after that I was sitting at the end of the dies because I'm the junior member. So therefore I was closest to Jack Smith and he must have been given a copy of that poster board. So he actually got to look at it for the first time and he turned to me I think because I was closest and now I can explain I think I can explain this. So it wasn't my turn but I piped up anyway. Can we give the chance give us witness a chance to explain now that he's seen the document and Amy Colbert shot took it from there and she did a masterful job and just watching that footage now of him at the game in Maryland is the icing on the

14:48cake but I think it did something really important you know aside from the impact on Eric Schmidt it showed just how over the top and it'll considered and it'll thought out all of these heinous attacks of Jack Smith have been. The others may not have blown up as spectacularly but they're equally meritless this is a class act a dedicated prosecutor and what I found so interesting also through all of this is the Republicans have never contested the overwhelming evidence of Trump's guilt on both of those charges Mar-a-Lago and January 6th because they can't. Smith has made it clear he had proof beyond a reasonable doubt we certainly saw a lot of that evidence in the January 6th hearings they don't contest any of it because they can't they want to attack Smith instead and we saw that spectacularly blow up in their face today. I mean this is sort of a side note and I said it a little bit in the monologue but like even if you had been in Atlanta so what like that is so much it's nothing.

15:56There's millions of millions of people in the island in Manhattan right now that I guess you could say I was colluding with and that we happen to be within the same geographic region but like who cares we even have that. Let me let me let me play you what what Jack Smith did say about what he had on on Donald Trump because I do think again your point about. Those charges remain fully unrebutted amidst this debacle take a listen. Our investigation develop proof beyond a reasonable doubt that President Trump engaged in serious crimes against our nation history teaches that the rule of law is rarely destroyed all at once. It's often weakened by attacks on the institutions and the public servants sworn to uphold it. Since January of 2025 we have witnessed precisely such an effort. And they don't they no one really tries to pick apart the case it seems to me.

16:56No they never have and this is not the first time we've had a hearing of this nature that is a hearing to try to discredit Smith's investigation of Mar-a-Lago in January 6th. We've had multiple hearings now they never contest the facts of the president's guilt. They don't try to claim oh the president never pressured Georgia defined 11,780 votes that don't exist because there's a recording of him doing it. They don't contest Trump telling his own Justice Department at the time when they rebutted all these false claims of fraud that Trump tells Justice just say the elections were corrupt and let the Republicans. The Republican congressmen do the rest they don't contest that they don't contest all the class white documents in Mar-a-Lago. They don't contest is trying to hide that evidence they don't contest is trying to do away with the security footage while they're trying to hide those boxes. They don't contest any of that because they can't instead they vilify Jack Smith.

17:57They basically leak documents from the Justice Department and the chairman calls it a whistleblower but it's just DOJ leaking documents before every hearing. So that they can try to pretend they're significant and take attention away from the facts. You made a point today and again that one of the sort of features of covering this president this hour is that things move through the news cycle and you kind of forget about them. You made a point today about the unbridged certain senators have taken of their phone records being pulled into absolutely legal searches in the course of criminal investigation that had warrants and signouts from judge. But that no one none of your colleagues at least on the committee I think raised any hackles about an attempt to indict democratic members of Congress in both houses over a video they made telling US service members not to follow illegal orders and and restating what their legal obligations are. And there was essentially I mean this was like an actual attempt they never weren't able to do it.

18:58They didn't have the good but there it was striking there was really almost nothing from from Republican senators objecting to that. That is so true and here they are protesting with such indignation that Jack Smith saw these toll records not the contents of calls but the toll records not because they were targets of investigation but because co-conspeers like Rudy Giuliani and the president were calling them as January 6 was going on. They take great umber to all of that but their colleagues are the subject of a grand your investigation the just farm and sought to indict them very much right in the target bulls eye and the grand jury says no that's total BS not a single grand juror goes along with the prosecutors and these Republicans on the judiciary committee don't say boo about it. They could care less about it I mean it is staggering can you imagine if there was an effort to indict one of them and a grand jury turned them down the prosecutors down completely what kind of human cry there would be but this just shows the horrendous double standard.

20:12Senator Adam Schiff thanks for your time tonight. Thank you coming up another big lie advocate quits Trump's grand conspiracy team Carolina joins me right here at the desk next. It's like a ton more in there you should try it if you like YouTube you'll love YouTube premium try it now for two months free at youtube.com slash premium try eligibility varies terms apply cancel anytime that's a mouthful. Traditional home security only alerts you after a break in and that's too late simply safe is changing that stop this is simply safe police are on the way we don't just alert we help stop crime before it starts plan starting around a dollar a day right now get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simply safe dot com slash sxm simply safe ahead of crime in real time.

21:20Doris returns plans to 4999 a month visit simply safe dot com slash licenses for alarm license information. There's a lot of news to cover money time for the business all eyes on the new Fed chair the economic fallout from the war is a temporary power the president is now a major crypto industry operator is this White House for sale politics is there an energy to respond to this aggressive gerrymandering it has never been more important to be informed and engaged money powered politics with Stephanie rule weekdays at 9 a.m. Eastern on ms now and find more on the ms now app. On a day that jacksman testified before the senate facing Republicans who tried and spectacularly failed to play gacho with former special counsel. We're getting more signs that Trump administration's own attempt to to kind of run a weaponized prosecution against basically anyone who's tried to hold on Trump to account is just falling apart. A second prosecutor has just resigned from the justice department's probe of a so called grand conspiracy gets Trump now the guy who resigned is Kurt Olsen you see in there a full fledged election denier involved directly in the January 6 plot

22:32who was part of a team clearly assembled to secure a big showy federal indictment of federal officials who investigated Trump remember that team was led by Joseph to Genova a right wing lawyer former talking head on Fox news who was sworn into the job just five months ago only to leave a couple weeks ago telling reporters on the way out and I quote him here. If you want indictments when there is no evidence you have an ethical problem. Carol Lennings a Pulitzer prize winning senior investigator reporter of MS now whose latest stories on the code deputy director of the FBI resigning after agents assigned to a case on Stephen Miller's wife were demoted. Our latest book is injustice how politics and fear vanquished America's justice department joins me now great to have you here. Thanks for us. Let's just start on the Irishman thing. Let's do. Well here's what I was saying you know you talk to all sorts of people in the world who have different views of like the media. And you know one of the things I always say is like. You know when I when we do this show here was in the whole team like people know where I'm coming from what my views are but we really do try to make sure we get things right like it's a real point of pride.

23:37We you know we do our due diligence. And like I just can't believe that level of sloppiness can I mean. Right we came up together we were both journalists coming up you would not get out of bed for a week. Can you imagine I think there are some journalists who might have considered I don't mean to be grim but would have had suicidal. It's not cool and it's not copacetic and it'd be heart palpitations forever I think you know. I'm a reporter I'm not an anchor I'm not a host. But I agree with you about MSNL's position which is okay yeah we ask hard questions were as a network right anchors are generally progressive leaning and worried about democracy but the reporting here is fact based and I had a jaw open as far as you could. When Schmidt began accusing Jack Smith of perjury and I could see Jack Smith saying well well I've never been to Atlanta except maybe through the airport down a connecting flight.

24:40The guy is if can be criticized for various things maybe not going to purge or himself. I think that's a lot of cool. Yeah I'm a lawyer and so that was all going south very very fast all in front of our eyes. That's the problem I think that all of us journalists who are fact based are kind of wrestling with is this administration is pushing this grand conspiracy case and there are no facts. Suggesting that people got together as a big plot to try to hurt Donald Trump. This is where these two stories to be connect and it's where one of the big grand stories of this time right because at a certain level at a certain level of cynicism you can say oh they indicted Donald Trump when Joe Biden was president now Donald Trump's president so you can indict his enemies and it's all just like will to power. It's all just who's got the who's got the gavel right and who's got the and one of the things you're seeing is like you know no actually the system of the law.

25:40Bringing indictments going to judges grand juries right. There has to be something there and the case of Jack Smith there was a lot there and they went through all these processes meanwhile what we're seeing out of this situation down in Florida. It looks like is they can't they can't make anything out of what they have. There's more reporting to do here Chris but there are signs of of ripples of implosion on this investigation that's called the grand conspiracy probe. I mean first was was a serious career prosecutor resigning after saying hey I looked at the evidence there's not much here. That's right I forgot there was already a career prosecutor who did a pass then there was Todd Lynch naming with great fanfare one of the most ardent Trump allies you've got. Joe DeGeneva who I've interviewed many many times he steps back makes the point you made in the top of the hour about you got an ethical dilemma if you don't the facts to bring the case then you have this just yesterday Kurt Olsen an election denier and the person who

26:44son turned into this very much for Donald Trump. Working on election integrity cases right something close to Trump's hard and now he's resigning and stepping away not just from this investigation but the entire Department of Justice one amazing detail here is that this was all convened in in Eileen cannons district right. The grand conspiracy investigation was taking place in a legal district that has historically been advantageous for Trump and using a grand jury in Fort Pierce run by US district judge Eileen cannon a Trump friendly judge like it seemed like you know they're doing everything they could possibly do to try to like wire this for this case and yet again one of the tests of our era is like do the facts matter in the end at all. And you know today in that hearing it felt like it did and maybe it does here. Here's what Jim Comey has said and here's what Jack Smith has said in a different form they still trust in our system our court system they still trust in the judiciary to a degree I mean they believe that grand juries who have rejected a lot of these

28:00gender cases where the facts. Care prosecutors have said these facts don't work. Grand juries have rejected political pointies trying to shove it down their throats including in Chicago where one grand juror said this case is fing BS right I'm sorry to be careful about those words. No well we might I think there's going to be more news coming out of that Chicago story because I think there's more there the more that you like I want to just ask about you've been doing great reporting here but again part of this too is that people institutionally won't play ball I mean there's there's lots of people inside these institutions still were like I won't do the wrong thing. And shout out to the FBI agents who keep standing up and saying no thank you exactly so you had a story of the FBI's co deputy director who is sort of brought in with great fan fear to kind of layer and one genome it seems like at the time has resigned after agents assigned to a case on Stephen Miller's wife were demoted what happened here. So there's been a lot of mystery surrounding this but my great colleague can delineon really led this story and I helped along the way but what he broke was that too very senior counter intelligence people were blocking at the idea of trying to bring a case against

29:15or make a threat assessment again someone who had called Stephen Miller and his wife idiots I don't know exactly how this communication was rendered but the FBI agents are like not really a crime not a predicate for an investigation or threat assessment. Those people according to our sourcing and reporting were demoted for not getting with the program of going after this apparent threat to Stephen Miller. And then now it looks like that their boss basically has now resigned because he didn't like them being devoted. And I want to be careful there that story is a moving target. One element that we have heard from sources I'm going in abundance of caution one. Set of sources say that this series of demotions made the co deputy director again brought in as a serious investigator uncomfortable but other people have said that he was getting ticked off that he was not being offered the director job as he once was offered.

30:22Carol and I thank you her latest book injustice how politics and fear vanquished America justice environment is available everywhere thanks so much. Thanks so ahead one poll after another predictive blue wave November but okay are we is this happening again what's the real story are these polls real that's next. If you like YouTube you'll love YouTube premium high I'm Sean Evans from hot ones and I want to tell you about YouTube premium it has offline downloads so you can watch without Wi-Fi background play so you can lock your phone and it still plays baby oh and it is completely add free yes I said it add free try YouTube premium for two months free at YouTube dot com slash premium trial eligibility varies. Terms apply cancel any time. The real cost of a break in isn't your valuables it's the feeling that your home stopped being safe simply safe keeps danger away from your family with three layers of protection. One smart AI cameras and live US based agents help stop intruders before they break in to we sound the alarm at points of entry three our agents request emergency response play and starting around a dollar a day right now get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simply safe dot com slash sxm.

31:34Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month visit simply safe dot com slash licenses for alarm license information money the economic fallout from the war is it temporary power is this White House for sale politics what is your message to the country right now money power politics with Stephanie rule weekdays at 9 a.m. Eastern on MS now and find more on the MS now app. Another day another insane set of polls a new Quinn a P.A.C. poll shows Democrats hold a 12 point lead over Republicans on that generic house ballot that's the biggest lead Democrats have had from Quinn a P.A.C. since September of 2018 in Texas Democratic Senate nominee James tell Rico holds a shocking 6% lead over Republican nominee compact in Michigan a state Trump famously one in 2024 Democratic Senate nominee Abdul al-Sahead leads Republican nominee microgir by five points. We pay me deal maybe dealing with electorate delivers a midterm sweep for Democrats not seen since maybe 2006 where Democrats won both the House and the Senate or we might be seeing systematic polling error yet again.

32:38Nikki McCann Ramirez the politics reporter for links doing and she joins me I mean I remember 2020 I remember particularly that period where Trump got COVID and the bottom just dropped out for him in polling and it was there was all sorts of crazy numbers coming in and then the election happened and it was close in the polls and everyone bench marked. There's two stories you can tell here which is that like we're going through that again or the political conditions are really that bad how do you think this true. I think it's a little bit of both I think polling is inherently an inaccurate science obviously. Stap polling and national polling are two very different things that's far more difficult to get really accurate local state even county level voting. But I think what we're seeing here and what we're going to start seeing in the coming weeks is in the last 30 days before an election you and I live in newsland we're constantly thinking about the campaign you're these polls are going to narrow more than they already are because some in these battleground states they're already really thin margins.

33:38You have in most national state level polls about 10% of the electorate that still says they're undecided those people are going to sort themselves out and we're going to start getting more accurate numbers of better representation about where people are at and that Quinnipiac toll as good as it looks for Democrats it isn't outlier. Yeah and this is a really good point is something that plough mentions a lot which is that if you look at those numbers they're not summing to 100 yeah right because there's some there's there's five to 9% or still not saying. There's a great quote in one piece today that was an interview with an Ohio voter who thought the chair Brown is the incumbent I did see that and John and that he was going to vote against Brown because he's gotten lazy in office is like well anything's got lazy obviously hasn't it's in the last the last two years there's also the sense that you see on the right and they they're really concerned about a enthusiasm problem and they've been telling their voters that the polls are a siop designed to demoralize you take a listen. I think that this prognosticating is a siop by so many of these polling firms in order to do what to depress conservative turnout even Charlie Kirchner saying that he's calling it a red undertow but he's probably not coming out saying some blue wave you're blue tsunami but that's siop is out there pretty strongly you might even stay home on election day and not vote because the polls are so bad we've seen it before you ever think maybe the left is doing that on purpose.

35:04What do you think I mean I think the turnout gap considerations are very real I think. The bigger issue here for me is Republicans understand at this point that they are operating off of the income and see test this idea that their own voters fear let feel like we did our job in 2024 we voted you in what more do you expect from us and we see that in the shift in messaging we're getting now from JD Vance where it's essentially please give us. I'm so sorry we promise we can fix this but at the end of the day. You see this in every virtually every midter cycle the incumbent party their voters have already decided that they put in the effort they already took the time to go to vote to support this party and donate and especially in this moment in time where economically and socially and just generally vibes wise Republican voters feel that Trump is betrayed. They're not going to let them the incentives are nowhere this is also points this this question about demoralization enthusiasm also points to a real measurement issue which is the between register voters and likely voters because you know mid term election electorates are different than presidential electorates there's millions and millions of fewer people and so a big part of what's happening is modeling that.

36:24But one of the other things about this is if the data is wrong it's the same like the private polling is tracking the public polling. Right like you hear this to like here's this I saw this today Tom cotton no one no one I've encountered no one who thinks that Arkansas is going to be close at all. No not in a real action this is a punchball today running for the third term is allies are outspending the Democrat Halle Schofner 65 to one they spent 30 million Schofner Democrats spend $200,000 like that's someone who seems to think. You know it's going to be closer than maybe it looks yeah and I think Republicans across the border also noticing that despite in deep red races in battle ground races outspending their opponents if you dig into the data Democrats are winning the small dollar donation war the ground game war and there was a poll today put out by Ken Paxton in Texas that only showed him up by three points yeah an internal poll from a Republican incumbent in Texas. 35 days before the election I think Republicans are also running into this wall of there's only so much money we can spend that will actually get people this is the efficacy curve spending and it's hitting the flat point Nikki McCann Ramirez thank you very much to come a new look at an infamous killing in New York City and what it tells us about our country at this moment that's next.

37:44One of the problems for Republicans right now is that they are still fighting the last war politically speaking I think they're still stuck in 2024 their believers in what came to be called the vibe shift it was a seemingly brief I think reactionary spirit that took hold across the country ahead of the 2024 election not just in politics but in culture. And in hindsight I think a lot of it was likely just a response high prices but it was also true there was something about our right leaning cultural backlash to both the perception and actual public disorder following the onset of the COVID pandemic and the disruption everyone's lies as well as the prolonged fervor of the social justice movements from earlier in the decade even as far back as 2014 and famously in 2020 around the killing of George Floyd and one of the flashpoint moments of that era of the kind of backlash era 2023 2024. Was the killing of that man Jordan Neely Neely was a 30 year old black Michael Jackson impersonator who is experiencing homelessness and acute mental health crises.

38:48On May 1st 2023 Neely was screaming on a New York City subway car when a 24 year old white former rename Daniel Penny came from behind put him in extended chokehold for about six minutes killing him. Penny was prosecuted he was tried and he was ultimately acquitted and his active vigilantism subsequently made him something of a right wing star hero of their culture war. That death and the subsequent trial and all the stories that come together in it is a subject of an excellent new book by my friend and author Anand Girdardas titled Man in the Mirror Hope Struggled and Belonging in American City and Anand's joint is good to have you so happy. Congratulations are really it's astounding the astounding work a great work you know this is one of those stories that you know horrible things happen every day in this country and there are awful tragic deaths that happen local deaths all the time. This was one of those stories that broke containment almost immediately why you know we are creatures of story right it's hard to absorb the world as a whole and sometimes a story comes along.

39:50That I think contains the world and makes it small for people and understandable and this was a story that was you know in some ways very easy to understand and and easy to reduce black mentally a homeless man as you said white former marine from the suburbs and people very quickly when to their corners right Daniel Penny either hero or vigilante Jordan easy the you know criminal that was put down or victim of systemic oppression. And I spent three years inside the case because I think the reality was actually much more complicated the complications not just about what happened in that moment but about all the forces that led those men there as I say in the book that that created a world in which Daniel Penny felt both the need. And the right to do what he did the need and the right and so I spent three years to understand what kind of enter the subway card with those men. And I think the answer is there is you know you can't in America which dehumanization is so right in which the failure to see other people across the many chasms is so right in which our leadership makes that dehumanization central to its program.

40:57You are going to get this kind of thing and you're going to get the sense of abandonment that was also such a crucial part of the story Jordan nearly felt abandoned Daniel penny felt abandoned the passengers in that car felt abandoned and I think a lot of Americans including people watching this tonight feel abandoned right that you're on your own basically everyone sort of on their own you know there's there's sort of two aspects of this that also make it to me. I mean I think it's a very American story that could you could see versions of in different eras but very much of that time that snapshot time for particularly the experience of covid and then post covid disruption and then backlash and disorder coming out of that period which which I really characterize with to me the entire zeitgeist of those Biden years right because we were still working we don't have this mass trauma. And we're all still sort of working through it and nothing feels right anymore and I reading this transported me very much back to that time you know I mean this is a book about someone in a psychotic crisis but covid for the nation was a psychotic crisis it is not normal as human beings to have sociality shut down with no preparation in that way we you know we were brave if we were lucky and we didn't know what we were doing.

42:16You know die or lose someone close we were you know maybe remember it as a strange time it was a time of enormous pain for some people and you know a time of just isolation for so many more people. But it what it did on a deeper level I think we're still reckoning with and for people who are already on the edge in terms of mental health crises we're already not visible to us by the way the level of invisibility and the level of suffering I think we're still grappling with and and that was very much part of the story. And also the cessation of services which was a huge a huge part of the story the subway shutting down you know I went through Jordan Elys you know part of his psych records for you know a period of years and there's a thing that happens in that covid period specifically New York subway shuts down I think for the first time in history if I remember right and he starts going into shelters or the ER saying I need a place to sleep because I've had this ecosystem right for a long time but now I don't and he would often try to go to the hospital at you know one a m or 2 a.m. Just for any try to get out at five so you go back to the subway. I want to read to you Scott Tarot had this rave in the New York Times but he criticized you in one way and I just curious to hear your response to it although you know responding to reviews I don't know if it's the best use of all of our time as writers but it's as an exhaustively reported book by a ferociously talented writer I would just cut that part stop right there. But again I'm going to go up here but but again and again the authors clear allegiance to the

43:45nearly undermises supposedly even handing reporting he claims and an author's notices goal especially once he gets to the trial. What's really interesting and I deeply appreciated that review and I was moving and profound and faultful it's a rave and it's a rigger and it's just rigorous and serious and faultful and what struck me was I have been accused of that before from the other side. I spent last few months talking to a lot of organizations that actually do this kind of homeless care on the ground trying to introduce them to the book and and kind of you know have conversations with them before it came out and several of the leaders of these homeless or except me I love the book it's amazing but to be honest it's going to be difficult for me to get my staff to read this book because of the way you humanized Daniel Penny. And so you know in someone else I did a video and time square this morning at the steps where Jordan nearly met one of his mentors and I was talking about one of the comments immediately came said oh while you're taking approach to humanizing Daniel Penny and Jordan nearly I guess you're trying to get that bread but you know good luck to you and so according to you here's one of the things happening and you understand this very well.

44:57I think a lot of people are comfortable with the people they would humanize being humanized and are uncomfortable with maybe someone they would be less likely to humanize being humanized and I don't even think we realize we're doing it I do it too by the way what I tried to do in a very practiced conscious way in this book again sometimes what I do another parts of life was to try to humanize everybody and I don't think this means letting anybody off the hook citing with anybody we should be able to do it. I shouldn't have a word like humanized because people are actually just human and I think you I think you you pull it off I I would love to read an amazing humanizing report of what Eric Schmidt's evening was like I mean that seriously like I just as a human level like boy and stuff but yes we're all in the end this is all we got on on Gerard Ardost the thank you the man in the mirror hope struggle and belonging American cities out now really it's you should read it will be right back. That does it for all in you can catch us every week night at eight o'clock on MS now don't forget to like us on Facebook that's Facebook comm slash on with Chris.

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