Fox News Hosts Clash Over Trump’s Deal with Putin

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1:00Hi, everyone. This is Mark Column, Robless. I'm joined by my podcast co-host, Michael Weiss, for a special, it seems like we are doing a lot of special episodes of the Bullwork Takes. This time on a potential crisis on US Ukrainian relations. Michael, it was a dizzy couple hours. I mean, I think you probably been up for the last 24 hours. I've been down the beach, by the way, dodging a tropical storm in the outer banks. You've been working your butt off. But all of a sudden, my phone blew up. You and I talked quite a bit. Because several things occurred, which frankly, I think, it took a lot of people by surprise. It started off with a some type of deal that President Trump reached with Vladimir Putin, which had to do with 300,000 tons of diesel that Putin would provide to the United States extensively to solve some type of crisis on diesel. I think you could talk about how that's probably not the case. There was talk of dropping sanctions on Russia.

2:02Then President Zelensky responded to this, not too pleased. Trump then retaliated and made mention that Ukraine needs a new leader, and then all of a sudden, Trump announces that there is a deal between Ukraine and Russia to stop hitting each other's energy infrastructure, which then Russia immediately violated twice. So a dizzying series of events, there's no better person, frankly, than you. To unpack this, I will always give my kind of two cents from the bleachers as a former intelligence official. But you've been kind of talking to sources throughout the region. And so I think if you can kind of give all the listeners an idea of what's happening. And really, the overall picture on, is this a major crisis in US Ukrainian ties? And how damaging it is it for the war effort for Ukraine? So we'll start from the end and move backwards. It is another crisis in US Ukrainian ties. The full damage assessment, very difficult to give at the moment. So let me just give you the reporting that I have.

3:02So I've been on the phone talking to Ukrainian officials, talking to US intelligence officials, talking to basically everybody and get a hold of. Here's what the Ukrainian said. So there was a negotiations between the Americans and the Ukrainians taking place in Miami just two days ago. I was told the Ukrainians and the Europeans, by the way, there were Europeans at that meeting. I'm not at liberty to divulge which officials were there because it's a closely guarded secret. But the Europeans were in the room. They did not expect to hear any kind of bilateral diesel deal negotiated and solidified between the United States and Russia. Jared Kushner was the one who announced this during the meeting. Everybody on the Ukrainian side was shocked. The main idea of this came surprise, surprise, from Kitelda Mitriyev, the head of the Russian Southern Wealth Fund, and one of Kushner and Whitcuffs main interlocutors on the Russian side, a guy who believes that ending the war and offering the United States all kinds of incentives to do so is inextricably tied to US-Russian economic relations,

4:06opening up Russia and doing all kinds of deals on energy and God knows what crypto, whatever else would also potentially benefit Kushner and Whitcuff and the Trump family down the line. Number three, most of the time, the deal that was being discussed between the Ukrainians and the Americans was about territorial concession, security guarantees, the usual kick and caboodle about how to end the war. Kushner was the one who first hinted, although he did not explicitly say, that the United States could cut critical intelligence sharing with the Ukrainians if they didn't roll over and just accept this. I want to come back to that point. Because that gave people a heart attack. Frank Correct. Yes. There was no plan for a second day of the meeting. Kushner and Whitcuff are planning to go to Moscow again. I think this is the ninth or tenth trip that Whitcuff has taken to discuss new proposals apparently that have been floated by the Americans and the Ukrainians with the Russians. From the Ukrainian side, their idea was to dangle

5:09possible deals with the Russians regarding diesel fuel, but only tied to an energy infrastructure cease-fire. So in other words, the Ukrainians would agree to stop attacking Russian oil refineries, which is something Donald Trump has been banging on about for several weeks now, in exchange for which the Russians would stop attacking Ukrainian power plants and energy facilities. So you mentioned there were two strikes. Today one was on a power plant in Harkiv. It already shows that there is no energy cease-fire despite what Donald Trump posts on truth social. So his most trusted advisor, as ever, is his own febrile imagination. The Russians have not agreed to anything. The Ukrainians are not aware of the Russians agreeing to anything, but Donald Trump puts it out on social media as if a Diktot will become manifest, not true. Zelensky, as you can guess, and as you probably have seen, is absolutely furious because yet again, he has been sideline. The United States went under the Biden administration from using the mantra, nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.

6:10To now, Ukraine is basically being told what is being negotiated behind their backs between the US and Russia. And this is very important because this is exactly what the Russian government wants. It does not treat Ukraine as a peer. It does not treat Zelensky as a legitimate president. This is one of the reasons Donald Trump keeps saying Ukraine should replace its president because this is a central Russian demand, right? They believe if we get rid of Zelensky, the Ukrainians would just roll over and accept whatever we impose on them. Territorial concessions, neutrality, the rest of it. This is also very short-sighted and stupid, both by the Russians and the Americans, because if they got rid of Zelensky, the next person to come to power would almost certainly be even more hawkish and more nationalistic than he is. And also one thing on that, isn't Zelensky bolstered, I mean, Trump's, when Trump goes, when Trump does this, actually totally counterproductive, because Zelensky, who is under some heat for some corruption stuff back home, all of a sudden has seen this popularity will gain because of Trump attacking him. So it's even stupid on Trump's point.

7:11Like it's incredibly dumb. It's incredibly, I mean, look, let's be very clear. Ukraine is very much an open society. It is an imperfect and flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless. There's a ton of criticism of Zelensky from the Ukrainian street, including, and especially related to corruption scandals that come very close to him personally, right? I mean, André Yermak is former chief of staff who was fired and is now under house arrest. I mean, so-called minigate. A lot of Ukrainians are very despptic about Zelensky's administration. But what ends up happening is whenever he is attacked by, certainly by the United States or any foreign powers, his popularity rises. So this is having the exact opposite effect that Donald Trump would like. Now, let me give you some other reporting. So I mentioned to you, Kushner has threatened to cut off intelligence sharing. That is not a portfolio that Jared Kushner has any custody of. Jared Kushner is a private citizen. He's Donald Trump's son-in-law. He is not a US government official. He is up to his eyeballs in conflicts of interest with pay-to-play diplomacy scandals,

8:12which again, coming back to something we discuss on the show all the time, I hope to Christ the Democrats have put him and everyone else on notice that they're gonna turn his finances inside out if and when they take the House and or the Senate. So the person who is, there's two people who decide Intel sharing with Ukraine. Donald Trump and John Rackliffe, CIA director. Now, what am I hearing from my national security sources close to John Rackliffe? I will read you out a quote, okay? And I think you know who this person is. There is no conversation at all about cutting off intelligence. I asked, is this a sign of desperation on the part of both Putin and Trump? Trump is absolutely, he thinks that the only way to kind of salvage the midterms is to have some kind of agreement in diplomat, deal or win. And he's pitching this as such. I am told it is desperation and wishful thinking no one talks on the American side about cutting off intelligence anymore because quote, we need Ukrainian innovation and drones in the Middle East.

9:13Okay, now that's hard to say. Donald Trump won't get on the guidelines with Rackliffe and say, cut it, John. But here's the thing. And this is also coming from the Ukrainian side now and this is the first time I'm hearing this from the Ukrainian side. Even if the United States cut Intel sharing with Ukraine, the Europeans, particularly the French, are providing a sufficient amount of intelligence. It would affect the deep strike campaign. It might not be as successful, particularly with mobile air defenses that the Russians put up, which we provide the Ukrainians with the geolocated positions of. But they would still be able to carry out deep strikes. And I last heard that Ukraine has no intention to stop deep strikes in the absence of a bilateral ceasefire on energy infrastructure. Which Russia violated. Which they just violated, even though there was no agreement to begin with. However, they are not going to basically flatter Donald Trump and agree to stop hitting oil refineries because he's decided to make some deal with the Russian. And this is the other important point about this mark.

10:13So you're hearing a lot of MAGA voices chattering that well, this is great for the United States. Fuck Ukraine. Why are they hurting energy infrastructure? You know, this benefits us. No, it does not. Number one, the amounts agreed to, I think you said 300,000 tons. That the Russians were promised to export. First of all, there's a big question as to why I love a Russians can export this. Because Ukraine has successfully chipped away at something like 50% of Russia's refining capability. And by the way, the Russians cannot replace or repair those facilities overnight. So this is going to take a long time. Number two, Canada, our closest partner in NATO, in five eyes, angiographically, all they would have to do is increase their production by 4% to export the same amount of diesel to the United States. So if we wanted to alter our consumption of diesel or make up for the shortfall, thanks to, by the way, a war that Donald Trump started in the Middle East and he can't get his ass out of,

11:14we could not only go to our closest ally up north, but it's... Well, it used to be our closest ally. Exactly. It used to be our closest ally. So here's the top line. This is a Potemkin bullshit deal that benefits nobody outside of Moscow and Miami. It's not gonna change the price of gas at the pump. Certainly not gonna have an impact on it before the midterm elections. What it does do though is it waives sanctions on Russia, which is something that the Russians are desperate to have, even though they claim on an hourly basis, sanctions are having no impact on us, bullshit, they are. And it facilitates a process of rapprochement with the Russians, which both Donald Trump and on the other side, at least, Kiddill Dimitriev are very keen to see happen. But the big question is, is does it end the war? Does it do we get closer to ending the war? Does Vladimir Putin's ambitions, both territorial and geopolitical, are they altered by any of this? No. So all it does is hurt Ukraine and Ukrainians.

12:14So, fortunately, and again, this is my final point that I'll shut up. For the last two years, you and I have been talking about this. I have been screaming from the hilltops. Ukraine's policy can be described as one of crisis management and crisis mitigation. People are not under any illusions that Donald Trump is going to fall in love with this country or that he's going to have perpetually good ties with Volodymyr Zelensky. He hates Zelensky. He has hated him since term one because he blames him for his first impeachment saga over his attempt to cajole the Ukrainians to dig up dirt on Joe Biden, right? That's never going to change. But what they've been trying to do is by time, keep the Americans going long enough such that they don't require, they don't need the same dependency, they don't have the same dependency on us that they used to. And now we reach a point where they say, actually, we don't even need your intel, we can continue to bomb Russian oil refineries. And so now the next thing that the Financial Times has reported is that the US is perhaps threatening to cut off the pearl mechanism

13:15by which NATO countries and other countries, Australia, Japan, buy weapons from the United States and donate those weapons to Ukraine. So Pearl is worth about 6.7 billion in counting. I don't even know what the latest calculations are. So this is now hurting potentially, if he agrees to do this, to cut off Pearl. This is hurting the American defense industry and the American employees that are hired by Raytheon and Lockheed in red states to build America weapons and ammunition, to sell, not to give away, but to sell to Europe. Everything about this is asked backwards. Everything about this is imbicelic. And therefore, it is the prioritized requirement of Donald Trump to put forward, because he's so keen to make nice with a country that fucking hates him and hates our country and is bombing and killing civilians on a daily basis. I think that was outstanding. I agree with you on everything you said. That was a perfect encapsulation. And I think that actually is going to be helpful for listeners because this is a confusing time. I have a couple of questions on the, on doesn't matter this deterioration

14:16and personal ties between Salad and Scantron. But let me just hold on one second, because I look at this and you are steeped in Ukraine, you're well-sourced, you have the big picture on this. I think you nailed it. When I hear something like this, I think back to my time is when I was a practitioner, if I had been at Embassy Keve and you they have to real, and so you spend every single one of your days, whether you're an intelligence officer, you remember the special operations world, sitting side by side with Ukrainian counterparts. You just by definition, because it is David Vercolaya, we are supposedly, we're supposed to be on the side of the good guys who is Ukraine. You are invested. You get personally invested in the coffee, just like I did when I headed a paramilitary base in Afghanistan, I had a thousand Afghan indig. I loved them. They saved my life. We saved it. Same type of thing. Like the American side, my old world loves the Ukrainians. It ain't easy right now when Trump goes off on this batshit stuff, along with Kushner or whatever, and you have to sit there and look, your counterpart in the eye. Now, your personal ties are probably very strong,

15:18but it is very embarrassing. It's embarrassing to be a US official at this time. And so that's just what kind of creeps into my mind. All right, let me ask you the question, because we live in an era of Trump every day getting front of the cameras. God knows what he's gonna say tomorrow about Zelensky. Does the personal animus now, that is now broken out of the open again? And it took by the way what, a year plus to recover from the disastrous oval office meeting. I mean, I think the Ukrainian side, Zelensky, you talked about this. We're brilliant in learning how to manage Trump. Are we back to square one again, or is this now a relationship beyond repair? Because it seems pretty nasty right now. Because Zelensky's pissed. And Trump is desperate. And so does that personal dynamic, that deterioration, does that matter? So, look Mark, you're fond of always saying signal versus noise, right? When we hear a lot of chatter and commentary and the president gets up and keep in mind, this is not a man who is cognitively all that well.

16:18You know, I think he's got cream of wheat for brains. I mean, you don't announce a ceasefire between two parties when one of those parties, in fact both of those parties, because as you said, Russia's still bombing it, you're creating energy, haven't agreed to it. I mean, he's trying to make manifest the chaotic contents of his equally chaotic mind. Anything can happen here. Like I said, is the animus between, or that he feels towards Zelensky, is that going to dictate what happens policy-wise? Not necessarily, because we've seen this movie before. He's called Zelensky a dictator. He dressed him down in the Oval Office in February of 2025, backed up by JD Vance. He's called for him to be replaced in numeral times on social media, on the tarmac when he's got a gaggle of reporters in front of him. So, I don't know. I mean, I think one of the things that has been consistent in all of this. So, the Russians are going to be very happy about this, at least because they love it optically. They love the atmospherics when Trump beats up on Zelensky.

17:18But then there is a school of thought in the Russian system among the Syloviki and the war party, as it's called, that you know what, it doesn't matter because Trump is, he can't deliver the things that we want. And also, he is untrustworthy. Everything I was saying to you about Intel sharing and the parole mechanism, all of the policies that are objectively good for Ukraine, that the United States still does. The Russians focus on that. They don't focus on the noise and the chatter, right? They focus on the actual signal. And the signal to them is, whatever he says, whatever he does, the United States still helps Ukraine kill Russians in Ukraine and now in Russia, right? And therefore, they are the main adversary. So, the question now is, which party, which element within the Kremlin or within the elites in Russia is going to win out and prevail in an argument with Vladimir Putin? Is it the Kyrgyzstan-Demitri of Pro-Raprochemont element, which just had a very good tactical victory in the last days? Or is it the Syloviki element that says,

18:20no, we must press on with the war no matter what? And now, again, I don't see any assessments from Intel on either side. The Ukrainian side, actually, three sides. The Ukrainian side, the European side, because you know, I'm very close with European intelligence services too. And on the American side, that tell me that Putin has his ambitions have altered, that he's genuinely sincerely interested in a peace agreement. So, where does that leave us? Probably not all that, you know, in any place that we weren't before. Trump has played games, little reindeer games with sanctions before. Remember, during the active combat phase of the Iran War, he waived sanctions on Russian oil, that he himself had imposed, right? And then those waivers expired very quietly, very subtly. Nobody paid attention to the PR of the expiration. So now he's trying to waive waivers to import diesel. Is the money that the Russians make from this, though? It will go to the war machine, but is it going to make a material difference? Are they going to gain more on the battlefield? They're going to be able to take Don Bas in a faster way.

19:21Nobody I'm seeing from military, analytic side of the house seems to think that things have been changed much. You know, you have Marco Rubio saying, just a few days ago that this war is in a state of a stalemate. Well, if it's in a state of stalemate, is our policy going to be, let's help the Russians actually take more ground? And if that's the case, then just come right out and say it. We are on Russia side. Well, there's the case. I mean, the policy dysfunction here is just so massive. I mean, that's the best thing. It's so, you know, having, you know, it's so funny, because I remember when I was serving at the agency, at a senior level in my old counterterrorism role, and the nearest division, I used to go to, you know, the all the various national security council meetings, this is particularly in the Obama administration. The NSC was staffed by 400 people. We had IPCs and DCs and PCs and all the different acronyms, and I spent more time trotting down there, and I wanted to kind of shoot myself on the head with this. Little did I know that actually that worked. Maybe decision-making was slower, but at least every agency would provide input,

20:22and you'd have a coherent policy. You might not like the policy, but there wasn't this whip lash and dysfunction, and it's just, again, it's embarrassing. And, you know, it's not productive, you know, it's not productive. And, you know, look, everybody's confused, by the way, allies are confused, our adversaries are confused. And this is not, this is not Trump's kind of mad, some kind of magic weave. I'm the mad scientist in every way. This is good. That it is totally destabilizing basically for everybody. Correct. Correct. If he had his druthers, this war would have been over immediately, right? But let's keep in mind, you know, there are certain things that the, even the president of the United States, much less an adalpated, easily distracted, emotionally unwell president of the United States, cannot do. So I think his frustration, his anger is he can't deliver. The Russians' frustration, their anger is he can't deliver. And the Ukrainians get a vote, right? I mean, what do we say when we go to war with somebody, the enemy gets a vote. The Ukraine isn't an enemy, it's an ally, it's a partner, but they get a fucking vote, and they're pressing on because they can't afford not to. So, and the Europeans do too.

21:22I mean, even if the United States were to lift all sanctions, which is also, let's talk about how Donald Trump's hands are somewhat tied here. You have Katsa, which was passed in term one, which make it, Congressional, it's congressional approved sanctions relief, meaning you can't lift certain sanctions without a settlement to the war and without a congressional oversight, right? Now you could say, well, he didn't give a shit about Congress. Well, he's gonna have to after the midterms, right? Because the republicans are not necessarily going to be in control of both, both houses. So there's that aspect to it. And then there's just the dynamics. Europe is now the main custodian of Ukraine's defense. Of Ukraine, yep, yep. And you've said that for a while. And I think that, you know, as you don't ever want to catastrophize, especially on a 24-hour news cycle. But so now's not a time, so this is not good what happened, but the fact that happened now is better than if it happened a year and a half ago, because Ukraine's in a better position, because the U.S. is a V-Europe. But there's one part that, you know,

22:22it's my favorite subject that I talked to you about all the time. And that's the kind of the pro-Ukraine GOP crowd. I saw something on Fox. It was interesting. Maybe they can pull a clip. This is Brian Kilmeade going at it with Rachel Duffy. Because of what Zelensky is doing, we're probably gonna get peace there because President Trump is now working with Russia because Zelensky is still arrogant. It would be the biggest mistake of his administration to work with Russia. That is the modern Hitler of our generation. He is the cause of all the problems in the region. And now is helping Iran look, kill our guys and blow up our bases. And now, the story you pointed out to me today in the Wall Street Journal, you see that he is probably, they in China are providing drones to the Houthis. Yeah, I mean, the situation, they're gonna be a big story. China and Russia are the problem. Rachel Duffy, who is kind of hysterical saying, Ukraine's the enemy in Kilmeade, who is very pro-Ukraine, and has consistently been that way, was pissed. And so I've been, as part of my,

23:25join retirement, I like seeing how Fox reacts at these things because there are people on the GOP side, you know who are pro-Ukraine. Yeah. And you've got, you've got, Don Bacon in the House, he's retiring, outspokenly pro-Ukraine, and not afraid to criticize the president, right? Great. I just don't have time for people who claim that Donald Trump is good for Ukraine, where that Donald Trump is doing more than Joe Biden. I mean, these people are intellectually and morally disingenuous in the extreme, right? Like the best you can hope for from the GOP, and I have GOP sources, and I query them all the time, because it's interesting to me to hear the kind of quiet wars being waged that we don't necessarily know about, because these people are too afraid to put their head above a parapet and denounce the president. But there are these wars being waged. There are people within the administration who try to blunt the effect of the disastrous policies that Whitcaw, Kushner, formerly Tulsi Gabbard, and Trump and his children are trying to shove down everyone's throat.

24:26So, okay, great. Hats off to you for fighting that fight, and I'm glad that these people exist. However, I don't want to be told that Donald Trump is anything other than an unmitigated disaster for transatlantic relationship for Ukraine, for Europe, and nothing other than a wrapped gift for our adversaries. There's always the tweets. People, everyone's record on this is out there in the open, and those who have kind of bent to the knee and been kind of sick of phantic and their desire not to anger Trump when it comes to Ukraine, I think the history will not judge them. But also, just as a final note, I cannot fault the Ukrainians, because you and I will get frustrated and say, you guys, why are you being sick of phantic, why are you flattering Trump, why are you trying? They have no choice. They're a lot of people. Except the way they are. But now, but Zelensky. Now, correctly said, whoa, and push back, and that's a good thing. So, here's what's going to trust me, not to stand up to Trump.

25:26Are you one? By the way, if he stands up to Trump, it might actually be good, because we've also discussed, Donald Trump doesn't like people who behave. He respects me. He respects me. The one thing that's going to trigger me is when Mark Ruta, if he makes an emergency visit and gets in his knees for Trump, that's something that has driven me crazy for years, I hope the Europeans don't come calling to the White House, right now, because that's going to be embarrassing. They should do, just as you said. Thank you very much. We got this. And that's it. We'll take it from here. You know what I mean? We're not even sourcing that many Patriot interceptors to Ukraine, which is the one thing they need most of all from the United States. So Europe is trying to make up for that by giving them their own homegrown weapon systems, the Irish Teeferences, which don't compete with the Pat in terms of hitting down ballistic missiles. But you know, the other thing this is doing, and I think it's important to appreciate this, going beyond even the confines of this conflict, because we're already looking, you know, down the telescope

26:27into what other conflicts might arise on European soil. We've talked about, you know, threats about against NATO by the Russian sabotage operations. You know, the Europeans have taken a policy, a series of policy decisions basically called by European. We cannot depend on the United States for our military hardware anymore, because look at how they behave. Look at this president. At the flip of a switch, they could decide to cut us off in the middle of an active confrontation that we are waging. So by European is now been given a real shot in the arm, right? Because we have two different, we keep two sets of books on this. Number one, we call the Europeans a bunch of free loaders and dead weights. And you know, the NATO is a racket, right? This has been Donald Trump's refrain for decades. Then you have people like Bridge Call be going out and saying, well, we might not support certain countries who get invaded. And if Article 5 is triggered, because we don't like how much money they're not spending on their defense, right? Well, now you have the Europeans saying, okay, thank you very much. So instead of buying your product, we will procure domestically on our own backyard,

27:28and there'll be a kind of decoupling in terms of the defense relationship between the United States and Europeans. Then the Trump E's on the Maga people, oh, no, no, no, no, wait a minute. You have to buy American. We just get to bully you and cajol you and treat you like the help. That's the game plan here, right? It's just, it's tyrannical behavior. And I think the Europeans, if they grow a spine on this and stick to it, they have every right to say, screw you. Like, we're done being slapped in the face by this deranged lunatic in the White House. All right, Michael, great job unpacking what was been a crazy couple a couple days. I know you have been without sleep and have been working sources great reporting on this. Yeah, gee, can you tell? Look, I'm all relaxed. I'm wearing my dive shirt. I came back, I was chilling, drinking some apparel sprints at down the outer banks. I kept texting. I went to see a grateful dead cover band. And I kept saying, you should be here, but no, you had to be working. Yeah, I got to talk to you.

28:29But here's, we're gonna have one last segment here because we have to do an update on my favorite story, I think, possibly our entire time together on the bullwork. And that's the never ending saga of KG. Otherwise known as the US ambassador, Nathins Kim Gophoyle, who is, once again, subject of yet another Wall Street Journal piece that broke. With the great title at Davos Kimberly Gophoyle, boasted of private jet trips, luxury stays, with an incredible quote here, as she said, according to a recording someone had, I'm going to deliver the world to you. I'm gonna make you a lot of effing money. So this scandal goes on, I have been, actually in my time, down at the outer banks. We had one nice beach day. I have been talking a whole bunch of sources, both in the US side and on the Greek side. And the following was just related to me. Number one, she's in trouble. The AP just reported, and I can certainly, that's what my sources have said too, is that both Trump and Rubio have had it. And the other part is that the Greek government

29:31understands that this is serious. It has been related to them, and that she may not be long for her tenure there. Because there is concern, and this is, frankly, on the US side, as well as the Greek side, that the incredible kind of, push in US Greek bilateral ties, over the last several administrations, to a state now where it is really the best security, economic, and political relationship we've ever had. She's a huge distraction, and she's threatening this, and it is embarrassing. And so, there's a lot of, I don't know, we didn't check Sam Steinloves, it's the Kalashy bet. You know, what's Kalashy saying on her survivability? I think she's out, and I think she's gonna be out soon, and that's what a lot of people are telling me. One of the things that's important to know, is that if she leaves, nothing, in fact, it's all a good thing. There is a Deputy Chief of Mission. There's a number two with the US Embassy, Athens. He's a Foreign Service Officer. He is an experienced Foreign Service Officer. He is liked by the Greek government, and everything will be fine. And they will run the embassy, and run it professionally without this dysfunction, because she also has a staff in which,

30:33according to the press reporting, and others, the staff does not like her, the security team gets abused by her, and she's obviously under the gun right now. I cannot imagine what a, you know, we call a country team meeting. That's when all the embassy sections get together with the ambassador once a week. That must be just surreal. Probably this isn't even mentioned. But it's time for her to go. I think Rubio knows this, Trump thinks he's an embarrassment, and the Greeks will be very happy. Amazing enough, they want to see her gone, because this is a distraction. They're very nervous on saying anything about it. It's time for her to go. Last piece on this, though, there will be congressional investigations, and Michael, you touched on this last episode, and I talked about it with some Greeks. The problem with corruption is that it goes two ways. And so, you know, so she is known to be corrupt. And again, my people who I'm talking to, says, this, all this stuff is ongoing. There's more coming, the Wall Street Journal has another story in the hopper. The problem is, on the other side, there are Greeks who engaged in this,

31:33and that's gonna come out. And so, the lesson on all of this is, if you think you're riding the gravy train with Trump, and the Trump administration, and all the kind of corrupt dealings, you know, sure, the US side might get caught one day, but that foreign side is gonna be embarrassed. Now, they might, there's no Greek might go to jail for this, but they're gonna be really embarrassed. And it's, I think that's kind of a dark stain on those Greeks who engaged in this behavior, because that stuff comes out to. And what, who will also be embarrassed, or the, any Democrats who basically give a pass to the foreign countries and the foreign actors, helping to corrupt the American system, because hey, you know, we just have to continue to do business with our partners and allies abroad, right? Yep. So, you know, people making a big deal about corruption now have to recognize this two-way street aspect to it. Yes, there's Kushner and Whitcalfe and the kids for the president, but then on the other side, Greek industrialists, other people who might have services and goods that we require as the United States, for sure. How about the cutteries?

32:34How about the Saudis? How about the Saudis? Didn't we just see some of these? What Democratic official just was visiting the Middle East? Kind of, yeah. Chris Murphy, I used to talk in a big game about, you know, cuttery investment in American universities. Whoa, wait a second. Are the cutteries investing in American universities because they genuinely believe in higher education for its own sake? Or are they perhaps trying to smuggle in some of their own agenda there? I wonder. So this is the problem, right? And Republicans instrumentalize this. They use it all the time. And they're not wrong to say, you can't be hypocritical about this, right? I mean, hilariously, just to give you a point. I'm seeing tweets from Marco Rubio, the GOP House, about stop buying Russian oil, Joe Biden. This week, these tweets are resurfacing. You see, this is what happens. You make your... They are out there in the forest. There's always a tweet. It's always a tweet. Yeah. So it cuts both ways, doesn't it? No, that's, I think, and this is a story that's going to keep going, you know, I think one of these episodes, we're going to sit down and say, there's no more US ambassador in Athens.

33:35And that's not a bad thing because that's for the benefit of US Greek ties or anywhere else, because they're actually, there's a slew. We can actually do a show on ambassadors and ambassadors which are suspect and it can go everywhere from France to Turkey to on and on and on. And so that's a whole other part of what the Trump administration, what Trump has done to the US diplomatic service. And putting non... I mean, in the past, there was a ratio. It was never even... But there was career foreign service officers who were ambassadors and then the political appointees. And now it is so skewed towards the political appointees. No wonder you're kind of getting this. And by the way, you know, I mean, Rubio and Trump are pissed at Gilfoyle. Are they pissed because she's corrupt? Or are they pissed because she was sloppy and stupid and got caught being so corrupt? Well, that's the thing. I know the answer. Yeah, so someone, a lobbyist on the hill actually said that to me and said, man, like this stuff does happen, but she's just so stupid that she got caught and because she's open about it, you can't be doing the things she's doing in the open. So maybe that's the lesson. That's the lesson.

34:35And the source is the guy who's now done that or including at the bulwark. He contacted Sam. Contacted Sam. That was a great kind of a successor. Hey, one last thing we're gonna make a quick mention of a book that is coming on Tuesday. Right, right. We're gonna run me by the way. It's called Havana Syndrome. Obviously, that's an issue that's the near and dear to my heart. It's something that ended my career at CIA. There's two 60 minutes producers who wrote this book. The New York Times just gave it a very favorable review. It's Michael Ray and Orianna Zill or two producers. You know them well. You have worked with them on these investigations. You deserve a lot of credit for this too. But the New York Times, why don't you go over the New York Times review because you actually tweeted something out. That was quite interesting. For years, and I'll be brief because I know we've taken up a lot of time. But for years we've heard Havana Syndrome a lot of speculation as to what this is. But really the US government has pushed back and said there's no there there. This doesn't exist. We have no evidence. It is quote, very unlikely that people such as yourself,

35:37intelligence officers, diplomats, military officials were hit with a directed energy weapon either on the US homeland or abroad and also very unlikely that a foreign adversary is responsible for any of this. So it is very gratifying indeed when you see the paper of record review the definitive investigative book on this subject by Michael and Orianna by the way or two people I've worked with very closely over the last several years. Collaborative journalism is very important, at least to me. And these two, they're producers on 60 minutes. They are by far the most congenial, warm-hearted and intellectually open collaborators in journalism I have ever worked with. So I just fundamentally great human beings apart from being great journalists. But anyway, it's very gratifying when the New York Times says Havana Syndrome is very likely real and it's being covered up by the US government, especially by the CIA. You were a former organization. So I encourage everyone read the review, go out and buy their book. There's more coming by the way.

36:39So we are working together yet again. There's another episode of 60 minutes coming and there's another written investigation that I'm doing with them. Stay tuned, I don't wanna give any of that away or bury my own lead here. But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's a phenomenal achievement. And look, I mean, if you look at some of the news coverage in the last several months, including CNN saying, oh, the Department of Homeland Security acquired a device that does all of the things that we were told couldn't be done and that Havana Syndrome wasn't real because the physics didn't exist. And this device is being tinkered with and tested on a US Army base for the last several years. Well, okay, maybe there is some there there after all, right? Yeah, well, and as I will tell you that for yourself and others who've been on this from the media, that's the only way that the victims have ever gotten any type or sense of justice. So we appreciate it again. Great book, I think we'll try to have some more on this issue

37:39in the episodes to come. That's it for today for a Bullwork Takes. If you like this episode, just a note, Michael and I will have our actual, the reporter in the spy podcast debut in November. And of course, please subscribe to Bullwork Takes. I think we're gonna be back every week until then. Doing our thing and Michael, great seeing you, get some rest, thanks for the great reporting on Ukraine and we'll see everyone next week.