Eyes on the Right w/ Amy | CCR 207

0:00Hey what's up guys this is Gans welcome to episode number 207 of Canary Cry Radio. We're going to jump into a fantastic conversation we had with Amy from Eyes on the Right in just one moment. But first real quick, I want to tell you about Canary Cry Radio and Canary Cry News talk and the value for value model. I want you to think about all the free things that you have gotten from the internet. Things of value or things of not value. And then think about the things that you pay for. Maybe some subscriptions that you forgot about or a streaming service that you barely watch. I'm sure if you go into your accounts you'll see all kinds of stuff that you forgot you are paying for. So now let's talk about this show. If you're new to the show or if you've been listening for a long time hopefully you're here listening because we made you laugh or feel the peace that surpasses all understanding

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3:05It's nothing wrong with the Joe Rogan podcast. I think it's great. I think it gets people aware and it's been around for a long time. Is it really still independent media if they are signing deals with big corporations like Spotify for a quarter billion dollars? I'll let you think about that on your own time but just understand that canarycry radio and canarycry news talk we are actually independent. We mean it. We're not just independent by name. We're independent in practice and it's all thanks to God. And you the audience that we are still around. So thank you for your ongoing support for those who have been around supporting and if you're on the edge and you're thinking about it, prayerfully consider it. You can go to canarycry.support to learn all the ways to support us with your time, talent and treasure. Also, there's another way you can support the show and to get your caffeine you can go to cageradalourcoffee.com.

4:06Our producer of the show decided to put together his own coffee company branded with canary cry. You can get your Emu Wrangler medium roast or your Nephilim hunter dark roast. It's great coffee where you can actually support this producer and support the show because the portion of your purchase will go to supporting canarycry radio and canarycry news talk. So go to cageradalourcoffee.com and get some real coffee, not this nonsense from the siren. Alright, so without further ado, let's jump into this conversation with Amy from Eyes on the right. Enjoy. Our guest today is Amy, the host of Eyes on the Right, a podcast that examines the hidden spiritual forces shaping culture through a biblical lens. Our work explores everything from occult symbolism and secret societies to medium manipulation,

5:08spiritual warfare and end times deception with the focus on discernment and scriptural truth. She's also a counselor exploring how to navigate spiritual warfare, familiar territory, but we're meeting for the first time. Welcome Amy to canarycry radio. Hey, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. Amy, very excited to talk to you. One thing that I love that at least has been an ongoing theme for us this year is the practical side of spiritual warfare. So excited to get into that. Of course, spiritual warfare is a fun, crazy topic. But this far along in the Eskaton, it's important for believers to actually have real practical advice on how to handle it. So very excited Amy. Yeah, me too.

6:08For those who don't know you, will you give us a little introduction to yourself, the show, that sort of thing? I would love to. And like I said, I'm happy to be here. I am just the producer, I guess, influencer. I don't know what you call it, content creator behind eyes on the right and eyes on the right podcast. And that was actually something I started 10 years ago when I was living near LA. And just seeing all the different things going on, the rabbit hole started to kind of open up. And you know, God was downloading things to me as I got sober in my life. And really, I just started to put all this online. Like a lot of people. And then that was the inspiration to start eyes on the right podcast where I could go deeper into some of these things and really throw in that biblical lens. You know what's the hope in all of this type of thing? And I am a counselor professionally. I work with all ages and you know, I work with trauma and anxiety and depression.

7:10And I do have some experience working with people coming out of the occult SRA, satanic ritual abuse, things like that, which is interesting. And it really gives me a different perspective on what I talk about. So spiritual warfare, some of these decodes, symbolism, some of these things that you guys talk about, I talk about. And it's just been really fun. So yeah. That's great. That's awesome. Yeah. Very cool. That's so interesting. Guns and I, we kind of, we feel like kind of grumpy old timers as podcasters because we started when podcasts were audio only and there was basically no such thing as, you know, a successful social media account. That's sort of before our time. And you know, it's been so interesting for us to update our own understanding because Lord knows our flesh. We are really resisting updating our understanding of how the internet works.

8:14You start, like, eyes on the right started like as a social media outlet for you, right? And then sort of transitioned into the podcast version for those who don't know, you know, your Instagram accounts are successful. 141,000 followers on your eyes on the right. You got 37,000 on the podcast thing. And then exactly did, I love this because when I listen to that progression of content of expressing yourself on the internet, it feels like starting the podcast in doing sort of long form stuff that there would just be like a fountain of details and interest that could not sort of make it packed into social media posts. Is that kind of, is that part of the inspiration here to that flow naturally for you?

9:17Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I'm still navigating the internet too. Let's just be honest. Oh, bless you. Never thought I would, yeah, I never thought I would jump into that podcast around, but I did feel the Lord leave me there. And there is only so much you can talk about on a post or a real and I for a long time, I did not show my face. I didn't want to put my personal life out there. And maybe that was a little fear of man, I'll be honest. We are a concept. Right. And I was like, no, I'm going to be anonymous. Eyes on the right is not political. It is my eyes are on the right hand thrown of God. And I think a lot of people were like confused. Well, that's a good clarification. Yeah. Yeah. And think of that. But yeah, that's certainly a good time to name it that because everything started shifting from the left to the right. So yeah, totally, totally. So yeah, that was my inspiration to answer your question.

10:20And I felt like there was so much more to say. And I had done so much research and experience, like personal experience that I wanted to share that. But what I wasn't seeing a lot of either in that truth or space was that hope in Christ. And so I really wanted to bring that into the end of my podcast, like, okay, all this dark stuff, blah, blah, blah. But what's our hope? Like we can hold both in our hand of exposing yet still having the hope of the sovereignty of Christ and what he's done and all the things. So yeah. No, amen. I love it. We've been very passionate about that as well. And getting to talk to some people who in their vocation and profession, oops, eyeballs drifting, you know, are experiencing and working in sort of that practical response arena, right? Sorry. Sorry. My eyeballs are drifting to the right. This is, this is never happens. It's embarrassing.

11:21I'm sorry. It's very on brand today. Yeah. It's conversation there. There we go. This is how how I get everybody to take me seriously. So now one thing that's super fun, just as like, you know, people who have been doing stuff for a while, 10 years ago, we're in a totally different world, culturally, spiritually, obviously, politically. You know, we started ours back in 2012 when everything happening today was like crazy conspiracy theory, like fringe Christian prophecy watchers. And here we are. It's all, you know, we're in the midst of seeing it play out almost in the exact same way that, you know, people paying attention, thought it would. But so, you know, let's see, 10 years ago, what was that? Oh my gosh, this is embarrassing. That was a been 16 right when 2016 was kind of taking power, right?

12:22Right. So it's been a little cute time. Yep, yep. Mm hmm. Yeah. And for us, it's been a little news talk. It's been a little traumatic experiencing just how different the world is now from even 10 years ago. So maybe talking to a counselor is exactly what we need. How are we? What was that like? What was that like? What do you see? What's been the process here? What's been different, you mean, like that progression? Oh, yeah. I mean, whatever comes to you. Yeah. I mean, you guys, you nailed it. You guys are like OGs and all this. So let's just be honest. You've seen the progression yourself. And the thing is is what I've noticed reflecting back is number one, it was novel in the beginning. Everyone was like, this is weird. Look at this rabbit hole. Oh my gosh, the cute stuff kind of lent into that. And people were researching and wanting to know, you know, wanting to know. And I think that was a really great time to start asking questions instead of just accepting

13:26the narrative. I thought that was great. But now here, 10 years later, I'm really noticing that the conspiracy, truth or movement, if you will, for lack of another word, rabbit hole people. I don't know what do you call them. It's like it has gone so far to another direction that a some of it's just crazy. And for me, I'm open, but I have the grounding of the word of God. So I am not drifting from that or my faith, even if it sounds very convincing, I am not going there. But I'm seeing people really falling for deeper deception. And in my personal opinion, I think this was all by design. I think the rabbit holes, the higher consciousness of an Alice Bailey, you know, Helena Blavotsky, all the UN, New Age stuff. I think they did this for a reason. I really, really do. And I think that's why pages like this one grew initially. I think that that's, you know, and that's just my just honest opinion.

14:26Oh, yeah. Well, we're kind of reckoning. We're reckoning with the same thing. You know, of course we've had friends in the space for quite some time that have been saying, kind of, it's all co-opted from the very beginning. But you know, they were kind of like a little bit of the rascals of the scene, you know, back when we started up until I think about 2016, you know, let's just talk, we'll just say conspiracy theories. We're kind of like a recreational intellectual interest, right? Like it was last time. Yeah, there wasn't necessarily a whole lot of real world ramifications for like getting interested in big footer UFOs or even conspiracy theories or even a deacultist, the spiritualist, you know, you can kind of do it without it, I don't know, having a real impact from the

15:28external world coming back to you. Around 2016, we started seeing that shift to suddenly like conspiracy theorists were like a national security threat, which made it like a little less fun. And then somehow we've come all the way around to where like the conspiracy theorist thing has become a like legitimate part of the government. Like it's almost become institutionalized, right? And it's impossible to look at that progression without thinking, it looks like somebody had some clever plants. It looks like there may have been some clever plants here. And but the one thing that still stands out is the spiritual warfare side, you know, we've since the beginning, there's always been this, I guess maybe war in a way in the fringy space between the Christians, the fringy Christians, you know, which there were much fewer

16:31of us back then. And the sort of new age alien side of it, right? And back then it was kind of interesting, everybody could kind of get along, you could have the new wagers and the Christians and we could talk about how crazy things were getting. But it seems like at this point, there really is a, let's maybe drastic ramifications for whether you take this sort of Christ path or the new age path. And you see a lot of people going totally sideways, not going to lie. But God bless them. God has a plan for them. Sorry, there's no question in there. But if that inspires any thoughts for you, or if you have any comments, I would love to hear them. Yeah, I think what you're saying is so true. And you know, that's where we're really looking at this. I mean, you can see positivity in all of this.

17:33I mean, a lot of these conspiracy theories, there's truth in it. And that's what makes it convincing because you're like, no, no, no, like there is truth. And that was something that rang true to me. I mean, having been on mission trips all over the world prior to 2016, I was in Haiti several summers and talking about Q, when they said, oh, trafficking the children, you know, all the things. I was like, boom, the Lord led me back to conversations I had with Haitians when I was there who were like, yeah, that's what happened at that time. I had no idea what they were talking about. I was like, they're doing that with kids here. And then come to find out it starts coming out and the whole thing with the Clintons and all the things, you know, they are dreaming of Chrome and blah, blah, blah. But I was like, yeah, and I was like, boom, not, but that's true. That conversation I had actually took place where they were verifying what then happened. And we were hearing about, you know, the last decade.

18:33So that really peaked my interest, especially living at the beach, you know, near L.A., near Hollywood, you're just run into those kind of people because they live there and you're just, it's just part of culture there, you know, so I would hear things and I knew people that were, you know, cameraman on this show. And what have you and they would little say little things over the years. And I never thought about it until fast forward. I'm hearing these things. I'm seeing it. I'm posting on it. And I'm like, listen, like this is true. Now, how we decide to take this, we've got to find the balance with the word of God and test all things because there can be deception worked in with truth. So that's where we are today. I feel like you guys is like, there is a lot of truth. A lot of these crazy things that people are saying that are a little newer, but there can also be deception in that. And it's like, are you walking out your faith in a way where you're really asking the Holy Spirit for that discernment to know if it's true or not?

19:37Because that can lead you down a whole other path that you don't want to go on. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, it's really interesting. Second Corinthians 1114 talks about how Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. And I really took to that early on and very similar to what you're talking about, Amy, I when I started face like the sun in 2011. And when I made, I made a documentary called Age of Deceit, Fallen Angels, and the New World Order. And I really wanted to end the film with hope. Like there is hope here. Yes, there's all this craziness and this darkness. But what's the point of talking about it if there isn't a hope that, you know, this piece that transcends all understanding. And we've stood on that for a long time. And I feel like that's actually what kept us from getting even bigger. Like we had opportunities to jump on some bandwagans to go way deeper on some conspiracy topics. But as conspiracy as a genre became more commercial, more of an industry,

20:39because before people wrote books, you know, coast to coast, they have some radio shows, there's some, you know, there's ways to kind of make a living off of it. But it wasn't until YouTube started really pushing some of these channels like ours that it actually turned into like people can make a living talking about these things. And then 2016 really, I think, signaled the shift from, you know, more of like a hobby or just a maybe a side job or something like that to politics. Like now there was a politician calling out the satanic elite and all this kind of stuff. And I remember thinking, whoa, and I know Basil and I, we had that moment of like, hey, should we put on Manga hats? Should we jump on the bandwagon and like really take off? But we didn't do that because, you know, there was something that didn't feel right about that whole thing also. But like you said, there seems to be some truth in every sort of conspiracy out there.

21:41But also nowadays, I'm, and maybe I'm getting old and cramudge in, like as Basil said, I'm, maybe I'm just getting jaded. But there were some conspiracies, specifically concerning the topics of the Nephilim, because the Nephilim, I know you talk about it a little bit on your show, but it's one of those topics that when we started, nobody knew about it. Like nobody in church, nobody, like I'd bring it up with pastors and they'd be like, I don't even know what you're talking about, you know, go, go somewhere else in the Bible or something like that. They didn't want to know about it. They didn't care to know. Now everybody knows about it. And I've noticed that the topic of the Nephilim is two and two a point now where it's, some of the conspiracies coming out surrounding the Nephilim are like, okay, maybe, but what's the big sort of thing? What's the point of it? One of them being all Himalayan salt is just, did you see that one? Yeah. Did you see that one, Basil? Do you know what I'm talking about? Himalayan salt?

22:46Yeah. Conspiracy that is the petrified flesh of the Nephilim giant. Yeah. Yeah. So what is it? What is that? Is that just like, is that the salt into the big salt going after Himalayan? Like, I don't even know. I don't even know what the point is of that. I mean, maybe I'm missing it. Maybe I'm old and cramudge in. But it's, it's stuff like that where I'm like, okay, we're moving too far away from what's really important here and we're starting to just everything is a conspiracy. And I get that sentiment. I get the feeling people get when they start to learn that, oh, I've been lied to when I was lying about and then started digging into rabbit holes. But I think people could stuck in those rabbit holes and there's no way out. But, you know, I think your point and the point we've been making all these years is that there is a light that that can lead us out of those rabbit holes, not just staying in it. So any thoughts there? Yeah. I know we're bad at questions today for some reason. I was going to say, no, I can tell that you're a professional counselor because you're very good at listening and you don't have like an impulse to respond or have. So like, you don't feel it's not your natural state to like

23:53need to respond to something, which I'm sure makes you a wonderful counselor. Aw, thank you. And makes you a great podcast host as well. I'm not going to don't let me skip over that. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's definitely a learned skill. I mean, you really got to like sit and listen, you know, but thank you for that. That is very kind. Yeah, it's, you know, it's interesting what you were saying. The verse I typed in the verse that I was thinking of second Timothy 3.7 ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth. It's a full knowledge of truth, right? And it's no different than Genesis 3. I mean, everybody's just seeking for that knowledge and knowledge and knowledge. But what I like to say, and maybe you guys can envision this just in your own minds, but you know, you think of the Oroboros and the snake looping and eating its tail, the infinity sign. I like to look at that is the matrix and Satan wants us looping in and out of that and hence the metaglosses, you know, it all connects. And when I think about that and I think about this conspiracy theory culture,

24:58conspiracy culture, I call it, it's like you're looping in that Oroboros and you will never, ever escape that Oroboros until you understand who the one is outside of time and space. That is how you escape the matrix, friends. It's not more information, more rabbit holes. You will never escape. And so I think going back to what I said earlier of like, I think this was by design because it really taps into that ever seeking, ever learning without fully coming to the knowledge of truth. It taps into that side of humanity that we all are. We want to know, you know, but I think Satan has crafted that so deceptively that many people don't realize they are just looping and looping and looping. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, it's been kind of interesting to see. Some people have sent me some videos, I think maybe one in particular that may have just come out that's got people on the topic. I've spoken to some, you know, some some of our friends over the years

26:05who kind of had this idea. It's thank God the Holy Spirit was given it to them maybe before it occurred to a lot of us, but it seems to be a sort of now explicit theory that's making the rounds when it comes to the knowledge starting with, of course, Genesis 6 and the biblical reference to the Nephilim, which then of course necessitates eventually coming to the book of first Enoch and then book of second Enoch, third Enoch, of course. And there's an interesting, I don't know, to call it theory might just be an observation in relation to the sort of spiritual war in the whatever conspiracy theory space that, you know, this really weird seemingly overnight mainstreaming. I mean, when Tucker Carlson's talking about the Nephilim, there's something is going on. This overnight

27:07mainstreaming of, you know, admittedly a sort of extrabiblical area of study, the Nephilim, that people are kind of looking around and thinking, you know, it's almost as if sneaking through the true Nephilim, you know, existence in the Bible, a sort of sneaky little rabbit hole or a borough's path to perhaps initiate people into the mystery schools through, you know, the biblical door of the Nephilim, you know, through Enoch. We have government politicians telling people to read Enoch and we kind of see, once you start going deep, I mean, it's one thing to refer to Enoch, of course, referenced in Jude and not a total sideways thing to research, but then getting deeper and deeper and ultimately leading to this sort of occult esoteric mystery

28:10schools, you know, I don't know, sinkhole. Yeah. Yeah, initiating it, uninitiated to try to raise up that level of consciousness that they, their words, not ours as believers, but they know what's going to happen in the end, you know, in the sense of these creatures, as in the days of Noah, right, we know that's what scripture says. So think about it if you were Satan and you were the fallen ones, you know the truth, but you've got to pervert it. So when you talked about Tucker and some of these mainstream news channels talking about aliens and the four types of aliens you know, Nephilim and all the things, they're going to be gatekeepers of that information and they're going to prime you with it, but they're then they're going to twist it a little bit. They're going to get you to trust them because what I think they're seeing too is not only a scripture coming to be fulfilled, but they're seeing a lot of interest in it. So how are we going to shape the narrative? So these people that are searching, they don't find the full truth,

29:13but they find the partial truth and in that there's deception. So boom, we win. You know, kind of thing in their mind. Totally. Yeah. And once there's a categorizable, let's say like advertiser, friendly, you know, category of fringe Christian, you know, esotericists or something like that, that's that's kind of the final straw for me is when I find that Nephilim interest is now an advertiser category and it gets sort of grafted into the economy of attention, which means the incentive is then just flat out to gain as much attention on that topic and hold as much attention on that topic as possible and you can only hold that attention by going deeper and deeper in sideways and exploring, you know, more laterally. And so you have built into the very sort of online incentive structure to never come to a conclusion, you know, on any

30:20particular topic, right? That's right. Yeah. Not that we want to put down any of our fellow podcasters who advertise on their show. So one of the things you mentioned, the Aura Boros, I found it interesting because one of the things we discussed, man, I'm trying to remember what ear now, it's got to be like 28, it was either 2018 or 2014 somewhere in there. I was doing some digging on cybernetics, just the history of cybernetics and the earliest thinkers and cybernetics in the last century and a lot of them, especially the father of cybernetics, Norbert Weiner, he talked about creating loops. It's like this feedback loop that creates the the computation, the basics of computation is information in, you get information out of this input loop. And there are many cyber netacists today that use the Aura Boros as the example, like the metaphor to understand how cybernetics

31:26works. So it's even embedded in basic computation, you know, in terms of a way to understand it for the layman or someone secular, which is fascinating to me. It's sort of the, we've been talking about the reenchantment of society. This is part of it, the technology that is bringing everybody to this view that, hey, there's more to the world than simply, I don't know, just material things as sort of materialism prevailing. Yeah, the prevailing world view of the last couple centuries, I guess, post enlightenment. And also to your point about shaping the narrative, we have friends who've written books and made films similar to ours. They made a film called, this is a truth stream media, Aaron and Melissa Gates. And they published a film called Mines of Men and they published it on Amazon. And they got taken down. And they were like, okay, well, why? And they said,

32:33well, it's just not, you know, violated some content, whatever they said, right? They content, violation, whatever. Not a month later, somebody released a book that was New York Times bestseller exact same topic. So I mean, it was pretty clear that the whole sort of, the whole reason for taking down their film was to make sure that the narrative is being told by someone that they accept or, you know, someone that they have greenlighted, not independent researchers. So I think this is a, you know, this is a battle on its own when it comes to content and information and stuff out there. What do you, in terms of this quick correction, Gunn, so you don't get the I know, I thought I started my brain started to, I know Aaron and Melissa dikes, not I know I said, Gates, there we go. Sorry Aaron. And I'm like, no, I said the wrong and last name. But my question was when of the topics you've covered, what has been one that really,

33:38two things, one, inspired you in a sense of like, I really need to dig into this. I really need to get this off my chest. And then two, what has had the biggest pushback? Oh, that's a good question or questions. Gosh, my goodness. I don't know if I can answer just one. I feel like I go, you know, spiritual warfare, like I told you all in the beginning is has really been kind of that underbelly that's pushed everything. Like, and I will say this just to kind of preface is that the reason I engage with the culture, specifically on the eyes on the right page and you saw those pictures or while they're weird, all the things. But people are into this. And so when I started, I was like, I want to engage in the culture now fast forward. The Lord has refined that in so many ways, probably like your spiel and how you guys do things, you know, you there's a refinement in that process. But I really felt like I have got to engage in the culture and share biblical truth to what the world is talking

34:42about. And that's really been my drive. So whatever that is, if it's the Androgyny agenda, I want to touch into that and tell you the reason, the spiritual reason driving the physical. So for me, that that was a big one in a lot of ways because it just touches into the gods of old, many of them were thought to be Androgynus. Androgyny is the blurring of male and female, which is, you know, basically every secret society, duality, right, the blending of opposites to perfection. I mean, it just ties into so much. So Androgyny, which led into the merging of man and machine, kind of talking about that cybernetic type, type talk, you know, humans and technology, communication between humans and machines. But I don't know. I think one of the things that I really stumbled upon to that maybe people gave pushback with was, I don't know. I honestly don't know if I can think of one. I get pushed back a lot. Yeah, I'm just going to say sometimes the pushback is so, you know, full

35:49scale. You can't really actually pinpoint something, especially when so much of the pushback, you'll probably get online is mostly just like, I don't know, angry people who are either trolling or really just find any reason, you know, they don't like your shirts or your googly eyes or something like that. Sure. Sure. Which I think is a good example that a lot of the pushback, especially the major one, is a spiritual battle, right? When it doesn't really have a full objective materialist, you know, logical rationale for the rage that somebody can feel, you know, on an Instagram post. I think it's a good example that there's some spiritual warfare going on. Now, I love it. I want to get a little bit more in spiritual warfare because I think you like us agree, obviously, that this is what it all boils down to. And it's boiled down since the beginning. The Nephilim, it was spiritual warfare, you know, the garden, the serpent,

36:52it's all spiritual has been since the beginning. And any sort of reflection of that we see on the material plane, you know, that's it's just an arrow pointing back to the sort of human history long war, you know, between God and the forces of the fallen for the souls of humanity through so many different ways, right? Which is kind of fun because we are in this new phase, which again, we would recreationally explore back in the day, but truly I've seen it come to the forefront is what we call the age of reenchantment, which is the mainstreaming, even in what we would call secular, you know, culture or society, the mainstreaming of the understanding that there is a supernatural world. And that it's real and that we interact with it and it interacts with us.

37:54Funny enough, in this period here, you know, the age of reenchantment, which of course people are getting into more religion, people are getting into witchcraft, whatever version of the supernatural, you know, is put in front of them, I guess, at the time. You know, it's also been because of the unimaginable technological, I guess, progression, right? AI brought a whole bunch of people into thinking about consciousness and the supernatural and souls, right? And you can kind of just go down the list of all the even COVID, right? COVID had this interesting effect of getting people to understand that something more was going on. So we see this across the board, which lends us to belief if we are aware of spiritual warfare, what it is, our role in it, the consequences

38:59of our world for it. It kind of interestingly enough, in a sense, I think opens up a lot of people to, you know, the amazing possibilities of, you know, God and Christ and our redemption, but also can be quite a burden for people. What's your, give us your understanding, the way you see spiritual warfare playing out. And I think on a broad level, but also, you know, in your personal vocational counseling level, right? We see this. Yeah. Talk to bottom. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of ideas of what people think spiritual warfare is, and I'm like big on defining, like, what do you mean by that? That's a counselor in me, like, what do you mean by that? What do you mean you're feeling that way? You know, because everybody has different ideas of what they think it is. And I think in my little tiny part of the internet, I feel like

40:01people think spiritual warfare is all about casting out demons. You know, it's, it's Satan, it's, you know, renouncing in all these things. Yeah. That's just what I hear. Totally. Yeah. Or they're, yeah, or they're totally swung to the other way where they're just like, we have the blood of Christ, we don't have to worry about that. Like, there's a lot of demon behind every bush, blah, blah, blah. So you've got varying degrees of that on a scale, right? But I think on a macro level, broadly, spiritual warfare is that it is fighting a, you know, an enemy, right? That's a warfare, but you kind of have to know who you're fighting since scripture tells us that it's a battle. Why are we putting on armor if we're not going to a battle? So Paul really lays that out pretty well, you know, our battle is not against flesh and blood. But what? Spiritual forces in high places, wickedness, all the things. So it's very clear, scripturally, what spiritual warfare is and what's behind that? What our enemy really is. So I think the defense and understanding the

41:05enemy to some degree is very important. And I always use this example, but growing up, I played sports, I played basketball, and there were times where we would watch the opponent. We would watch them before we played them. And what we were doing was we were trying to understand their weaknesses, what they would do repetitively. So then when we entered into the game, we would be more effective. So I do believe we have to understand the enemy. And that's why I do some of the things that I that I do that I post and I talk about. And I've gotten people who say, why are you continually exposing the dark? Like, where's the hope? Okay. And I'll like listen to my podcast. I'll tell you where the hope is. But with that said, we also have to realize that part of spiritual warfare are like what I might call, and this brings to the personal level. This brings to like a counseling level. Is that yes, it is that stuff. We have to renounce we have to bind demons, you know, you have to understand that not every thought that comes into your head is your own. There's an enemy, etc. But

42:08we've got to look at ourselves offensively, if you will, and say, where are my weaknesses? Let me look at the open doors and access points so I can be effective on the battlefield or the playing ground or as an athlete. So it's not always about the enemy. It's about you. And that's one of the things that I've found is so impactful specifically in what I would call my ministry and my counseling and my teaching is listen, if the enemy can get you to justify your sin, if he can get you to not read the Bible, if he can get you to know it, but not act on it, then you are going to be ineffective on the battlefield. You will have a weak link in the armor. There's going to be an opening or an access point because you are justifying your sin. You're not utilizing repentance, confession, purging that out with a blood of Christ, being cleansed. And so therefore you have an opening that the enemy sees is a weakness. And that's sin. And that's very simplistic in how I

43:08explain that. But that's really how I look at spiritual warfare. It is the defense, but it is also you. It's the offense. It's like, what are you doing in your walk? And I find that that is probably more impactful to understand that than the other. Because if Satan can get Christians to just live in sin, not really care, lukewarm Christianity, whatever, what is he? He's the accuser. What can he accuse us of? Open doors of sin. It's not that hard. It's not always too. Because of course, I grew up in the church. So it's my whole life. I've kind of had this, I don't know, worldview, cosmology, things like that. And it's funny because like what you're saying, there's the sin in our lives, the open doors, the things like this. It's really easy, especially for what I might say,

44:09like as a complacent Christian or a Christian who is maybe not in the throes of rapture about the beauty of their salvation. Maybe they've been in it for a while. We're kind of used to just living our lives. In a congregation, hearing these things, you can be like, yeah, well, I'm not stuck on drugs. I don't beat my wife. There's a lot of, it's not that bad or whatever. And to a great, that's good. It's probably good that your salvation, God's grace has kept you from the worst of it. But it's easy to become sort of complacent in the small sins, but also just the complacency itself. And I really have a lot of grace for people in that situation. Because in the end, what it really is to, again, to give them the grace is that from their perspective,

45:13they're probably just focused on the really good, basic focuses of surviving in this economy, in this culture. They got kids, they're paying the bills. That I mean, even just providing for a family is such a beautiful virtue that should be celebrated and rewarded with love and grace. But it's easy to focus on that little obstacle course that the enemy has set up through culture and seeing success in that as maybe being excluded from some of the more ethereal sort of spiritual warfare things. I imagine that that comes up at least sometimes in your work. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was thinking about it the other day and I've been on and off in ministry for upwards of 30 years. And so give or take, teaching counseling, et cetera.

46:18By this point, I've seen almost thousands of people. I've seen so many people in my practice. And I see the same patterns over and over and over again. And one of the biggest things that I see to your point, Basel, is it's, and I call it, I say it the same way. I say it's the little sense. It's what you might call the little sense. You know, well, I'm not murdering anybody. I'm not committing adultery. I'm not doing all the things. But yeah, God jealousy. Or I believe that I have to be a perfectionist in order to obtain worth and value. It's those little tiny things that over time create strongholds like the Bible says because you believe something because of life that because of what you've been through. And in that belief, you act on it. And when you do that over and over and over again, it's like laying a brick upon a brick upon a brick. So there you have a stronghold. Yeah. You know, and that's why people feel stuck because they're really at the basic aspects of spiritual warfare and healing and what I do is what are you believing? And then what

47:23are you acting on? Right. Be not just hears, but doers of the word. And so if Satan can get you knowing it, but not acting on it, oh, you're a child of God. Yeah, yeah, I know that. But then I act like I'm a fool or failure or horrible person. If I'm not perfect, you know, so you've, it's really interesting to me. And I don't know if I'm making sense. No, totally, totally make them sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, this is the practical stuff that I think those of us, and of course, our listeners, many of our listeners have been with us forever. You know, we've been in the weird stuff for 15 years almost. And you know, there came a point for us while the rest of culture was sort of like catching up. The reenchantment was coming. Tucker Carlson was talking about being attacked by demons. You know, suddenly this, the concept of spiritual warfare was like mainstreamed, at least on the internet. And you know, we're looking at each other like, okay,

48:23this is good. This is good. But it feels there's something. There's some, there's, it's suspicious. There's a suspicious sort of strategy at hand. And I think sometimes that strategy can show itself from the enemy as listening to spiritual warfare, maybe even talking or thinking about spiritual warfare kind of in that recreational intellectual sense, right? Much like how we may have intellectually had a fun time thinking about UFOs in 2012. Now the spiritual warfare being kind of introduced into a mainstream conversation, introducing a lot of new people to it who are coming to the truth of it. That's very good. But it's again, because it's a podcast, because you're at work, because you know, it's maybe even because of it's ubiquitous nature in media. It's really

49:24easy to kind of take it in passively or take it as an observer, right? I just, and I don't, I couldn't really tell somebody when or how or, you know, I don't know, what it would take even in our own, I guess, we're all in control of our own media, our own intake, our own, the things that influence us. And it's a really interesting process of spiritual, especially with spiritual things. When does that go from intaking and being entertained or being, you know, titillated by the information about spiritual warfare and then integrating it into the way we work in the world. Yeah, that's that's that's that's that counselor language. I knew right. Like it. I like it.

50:27Very good. Where does it go from being interested in it and kind of observing it to actually integrating it in your life? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You know, I mean, yeah. What does that look like practically? Because on one hand, I could see and I've heard and this is happening again, age of reenchantment, supernatural experiences are going to be popping up left and right. I'm warning everybody whoever you are, if you're a Christian, if you're not, you're going to be having inexplicable, supernatural experiences, even if you've never, he could be a Christian your whole life and you've never had a supernatural real experience and you're going to, it's going to start happening regularly. And, you know, I imagine that when somebody has that dream or has that encounter with an entity or something, that's a nice way to wake somebody up, but maybe absent that experience. What do you think? Yeah, I see what you're saying. And that's actually what really woke me up to

51:28the idea of the supernatural. I experienced something. Yeah, baby. About 11 years ago, or no, I'm sorry, it was sooner than that. It was about five years ago, six years ago, gosh, no, sorry. It was when my, it was when my father died and it's been a long time. So it's been about eight or nine years, lose count, getting older. But basically, just to kind of nut shell it, I did not realize the spiritual world the way I did until things started happening in my mom and dad's home. And my parents were devout Christians. Like they were like Christians, things moving, Bible pages turning. My mom was, you know, survived my dad's death and she lived three years longer. But she was experiencing what I might call the hat man coming, tall, black figure coming with a hat, coming and choking her at night. Right? So it got real quick. And I was like, what is going on? You know, the caregivers were like telling me all these weird

52:32stories. I'm like, really like in this home, like, why? Well, there were multiple reasons why now looking back. I don't have to go into those. But I think there, it was a perfect storm of death and sadness and grief and other factors of people coming in who were not very good people. It just created this space where the enemy could really work. And my mom was vulnerable. I mean, she had Parkinson's. She was on some, you know, pharmaceuticals. And so I think she was the perfect person to attack. And so during that time period, I learned a lot very quick. And I read this book by Dr. Rebecca Brown. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called, come to set the captives free or came to set the captives free. She wrote several books. And basically she was an MD who brought a head which out of witchcraft into Christianity. And she talks about her experience. And I was reading that book at the time. And so I was like, dude, if I can say that, dude, I think

53:34this is what's going on here. You know, like it's going on in my parents' home. So fast forward, yeah, that's it. Really good read. Really interesting. So that's a warning for you. Like it might kind of shatter your paradigm. But basically, I learned really quick. And so going back to your question, it integrated very quickly. And my whole world went to a different place. And so I think, you know, people won't really get it unless they experience it on some level. And like you said, the veil is thinning, so to speak. I mean, I am experiencing things. And I'm not like woo, woo, anything. I'm like straight up. I'm testing everything. Like the Lord gives me the gifts of the spirit at times to have a word of knowledge or a word of wisdom with people that I'm counseling with. But I'm telling you, I'm seeing things. Yeah. And I'm not and I'm so reminded and vigilant. I've been sober for 10 years. Yeah. So the veil is thinning. And I'm seeing things online. I'm seeing things manifesting around people. And I know that if you haven't experienced something

54:41supernatural, you will. Yeah. Just like you said, Basil. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm so glad to hear you say that. And you know, our long time regular listeners, they're going to know exactly where I'm going with this. But don't worry. I'm not going to not going to give the whole hour testimony. But recently, I actually had now been a Christian my entire life had a lifetime of encounters, hauntings, shadow people, sleep paralysis, levitation. I had it all, baby. And then when I was 23, you know, I had this experience where, you know, the Lord led me and allowed, you know, the authority of Jesus to just end it all permanently. Right. But I'd learn I had gone through the, you know, the the the training course of, you know, 20 years of an entity comes to you at night. Oh, name of Jesus. Boom. It's gone. Oh, shadow person is lifting you off the bed. Name of Jesus. Boom.

55:43Over, you know, over and over and over in my life. And then one wonderful victorious encounter when I was 23 ended all of that. And until just about three weeks ago, when I was given, again, I love it. I love it because I had taken such a long break from, from really gnarly supernatural encounters. But then the Lord gave me this opportunity to long story short, enter a sort of semi-dimensional, I call it like a clubhouse for magicians and witches, real humans who are practicing magic, right. And a very powerful encounter totally changed my heart. Long story short, their leader didn't like me, put me through this long trial of spiritual attacks one after the other. I stood firm, didn't run away,

56:50didn't let the leader sort of intimidate me out of the space. Jesus' authority came in, preserved the situation, and it actually ended up being such a powerful witness to the magicians and the witches in the space. And the Lord absolutely, I mean, we are asking questions all the time. All right, God, what are we actually supposed to be doing in this time, this age of reenchantment? The mission is obviously different. The atmosphere is obviously different. As Christians, what's our deal, man? And this experience gave me such an other, I mean, straight from the heart of God love for witches, magicians, just a feeling of real compassion that cannot come from me. And especially growing up as a Christian kid, witches, magicians, they were always the bad guys, they're the bad guys, right. And of course, Jesus comes and delivers them from all this stuff and

57:56it's very good, but still even in my own perspective, I had always considered magic users as a type of enemy here on earth. Now for me personally, that has totally changed. I have such a heart for those people. And so, you know, I tell the testimony as often as I can, even just to give people just that seed for when they are super, which I am confident that everybody listening to this is going to have an inexplicable supernatural experience sometimes soon. And I'd say prepare for it now because it's easy to feel powerless in those situations. And if I hadn't had sort of that lifetime of like boot camp, you know, from God, I couldn't have handled this situation. Now, this has led me into a totally new relationship with Scripture, a totally new understanding of

59:00what we're doing here. And again, Christian my entire life has been taught through the Bible forever. I dove back into Acts because again, Christian forever, what are we supposed to do congregation? Let's be like the early church. Let's do what the apostles did. Obvious answer. Reading back through Acts, it had never occurred to me. Oops, I turned off my thing. I had never been taught this explicitly. But it turns out about every two chapters, the followers of Christ are coming in direct contact with which is magicians. And an entire economy based on magic. And one of my favorites, of course, is Acts 19, where Paul is an Ephesus. An Ephesus, their entire economy was based on magic. Ephesus was famous for their professional

1:00:05magicians. And their professional magicians, like their main export, was enchanting Amulets and talismans to protect you, protect your homes. The entire Mesopotamian magical economy was basically based on Ephesus. And when Paul walks into Ephesus, the Holy Spirit casts out demons, the Holy Spirit heals people. And in chapter, sorry, verse 11 of Acts chapter 19, this is where we get the really weird kind of intro to this economy. And the Holy Spirit's movement in it, verse 11, God was performing extraordinary miracles by Paul's hands. I'm reading to NET, by the way, so that when even hanker chiffs or aprons that had touched his body were brought to the sick, their diseases left them in evil spirits went out of them. And it's kind of a weird kind of

1:01:06throw away interesting thing going on where the Holy Spirit is using rags that touch Paul's body to do extraordinary miracles to do the things that the professional magicians and their Amulets and their talismans, you know, that's how they made their money. So there's this implicit Holy Spirit injection into the economy of the city proving that something more powerful than the professional magicians was there. And that was just the beginning, right? Because then we have the Jewish exorcist, the Jewish conjurers who try to use the name of Jesus as a magic word to exercise spirits, which these were sort of proto-solomonic magic users. Solomonic magic was not institutionalized yet, but this is sort of proto-key of Solomon's summoning circle sort of conjurers. And they say,

1:02:11in the name of Jesus and the demon that they're trying to cast out goes, I know who Jesus is. I'm acquainted with Paul, but I don't know who you are. And the demon, demonized man, attack the conjurers, right? So we have two examples of not just a supernatural, interesting Bible story, but a direct attack on the culture and the economy of Ephesus. And then of course we know after this happened, verse 19, large numbers of those who had practiced magic collected their books and burned them up in the presence of everyone. When the value of the books was added up, it was found to total 50,000 silver coins. In this way, the word of the Lord continued to grow in power and to prevail. Again, an interesting detail, but the move of the Holy Spirit in this city

1:03:12and this economy caused an entire industry of professional witches and magicians to burn their books and 50,000 silver. Dracmas, guns did the, you know, the loose math. This was like $100 million worth of magical books, right? Now, of course, this caused the craftsmen and basically the effusion chamber of commerce, who is losing money to go ahead and start a riot. Another wonderful example that mirrors today is it talks about how the rabble rousers that the chamber of commerce got to riot. They didn't even know what they were writing about. They weren't even in agreement, which I think we can see examples of that in our current world where powerful money political interests will encourage riots and protests and you go down on the ground and nobody's really in agreement about what they're even fighting for. Just a fun reflection for looking for, you know, examples

1:04:17in acts of our world today. Now, the real heavy part came for me and sorry to give a little Bible study here, but now that we know that story in Ephesus, the book of Ephesians, Paul's letter to the Ephesians takes on a very specific language because we keep in mind that when Paul is writing to Ephesians, the Ephesians, believers, he's writing specifically to an entire congregation and population of ex-magicians, ex-witches, an entire city of magicians, witches, shamans, conjurers who threw a move of the Holy Spirit in their physical economy, right? Not even just in personal encounters, but public, economically important displays of the Holy Spirit. And in Ephesians chapter three, verse 10, maybe the heaviest thing, this is Paul talking to all the

1:05:25witches, all the magicians that laid down, burned their books, turned to God, not just God, but faith in Jesus Christ and his bodily resurrection, which is hilarious, all through ex, they can be talking to priests, to magicians, to witches, to all the craziest, supernaturally minded people, and they all cannot even fathom the idea that a bodily resurrection of Christ is even true, right? Which I think we see that today too. You can have the most woo-woo, supernatural, mystical, crazy people who believe they can control the weather with their mind, and they can astral project, but oh no, the idea that Jesus rose from the dead is just so crazy and silly, obviously, that's not true. And verse 10, Paul writes, and he says, the purpose of this enlightenment, now he's using all these words of the mystery schools, talking about the

1:06:29mysteries of God, the enlightenment of people. So, you know, he's speaking that supernatural language to the people, and he says, the purpose of this enlightenment, talking about their salvation, the destruction of the magical economy and Ephesus, the salvation of all these people who turned from the magical arts to belief in the resurrection of Jesus. He says, the purpose of this is that through the church, the multifaceted wisdom of God should now be disclosed to the rulers and the authorities in heavenly realms. And so the holy spirit supernatural bomb that went off that destroys the economy, the leadership, the magical industry of Ephesus, causing a huge cultural and economic devastation in the area

1:07:33was the announcement to the rulers and authorities in heavenly realms. It was the heavenly announcement to the rulers and the principalities of Ephesus that God's secret plan, that is Jesus Christ, you know, was now in effect. And I see this, and of course, Artemis was the primary principality over Ephesus. And that was the whole thing. So you've got this announcement to Artemis and the whatever dark rulers were in control, that there was a new God had sprung his secret trap in the supernatural, right? And you think about today, the magical economy that is today is AI, big tech, this blending of magic and technology that's turning everybody to a

1:08:35sort of a magical understanding of the universe. And I could just imagine what kind of movement of the Holy Spirit in today's big tech dystopia, B system blah, blah, blah, that could be the trumpet sounding in the supernatural that again, God's secret plan is in effect, right? And I just, and again, I don't know exactly what that is. I grew up in a tradition of Christianity that was very, very, you know, we believed in the miracles, we do believe in miracles, the, you know, the movement of the Holy Spirit. These things in Acts still happen today. And you know, if we're asking the question, what does this look like today and just how big could a move of God, you know, crumble the world around us? What a, what an awesome display of God's power that would be.

1:09:39What does that mean for us? It means we need to start playing our part, right? Right. Right. Do you have any thoughts, counselor, about the, about what you're doing today? Yeah. I love what you brought up. And I think it really solidifies Acts, like you said, you know, and I love the heart that we can have for people coming out of the new age or witchcraft or the occult. And I would love to shed another side of that too, as scripture tells us, you know, be as wise as servants in innocent as doves. Having worked with people coming out of the occult and witchcraft, I think as Christians, we, we have got to love these people first off. Their, their quest for understanding, their quest for kind of that equational idea of A plus B equals C, that's a lot of the new age. You know, if I do this, I get this, if I do this, I get this, right? You know, my heart has really,

1:10:43really been for those people. And that is why I specified some of my training specifically to work with them. But I will say this. And I want, I want your listeners to hear this too, that when we are working with people or talking with people, it is always very wise to ask Lord to guard you. Oh, yeah. To, to give you wisdom. Um, interestingly enough in the book of Acts, the chapter before was the damsel who was, had the spirit of divination, the pythons. Yes, the slave girl. And the slave girl she was making money. Yep. Doing, okay. And what's interesting about that story and it's going to kind of preface into what I'm going to say is that she was saying all the right things. She was like, oh, these are the men of the most like God, you know, do do do do. And Paul was grieved. And he was like, he was perceiving a spirit still operating in her cassettes, spirit out, et cetera. Right. What, what I have found is, and I'm not going to get too

1:11:44deep, but I, but I do work with people with DID as well as people that have come out of like mind control things where they have been religiously abused, where they have a lot where these people have actually used Jesus and entities against them to fracture them to create strongholds. And what happens is if we're not careful as believers in a loving way, there can still be areas of these people's lives that have not been sanctified, renewed, and delivered that can actually be utilized to infiltrate churches. And, and, and that's the part where it's hard for me to even say that, but unless, because I love, I work with these types of people, you know, and I love them. But we have to understand that there is a sanctifying process that needs to be taken and there needs to be discipleship with these people. And there needs to have our guard up in a loving wise spirit of God way. Oh, yeah. Because they may not even know that they have, if they're

1:12:49channeling in entities, which a lot of them are, or they're having entities attached to certain parts of them, because DID is basically the new language for MPD, which is multiple personalities disorder. This is what happens in SRA and occult systems. They fracture the child to create, you know, little super soldiers, right? It's horrible. But, but basically, you know, they might not even know that they have that part of them and is accessed by the enemy. And I know this gets to into a whole another theological point of view, you know, can people that believe in Jesus' vio press by demons? And I don't have to go there, but, but my point is, it could go there if you want. I think it's a very important part of what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I did a whole podcast on this on spiritual warfare. I feel like, and this is me, everybody, and I feel like it's biblical. When you look at the word possession, defined, it's a taking over. And so, do I think that a

1:13:53whole demon or an entity or demons can fully inhabit a person that is a Christian, not necessarily. But I do think that Christians can be oppressed, vexed, and tormented, that they can have access points because of belief systems sin, habitual, I felt it. I was a habitual drunk and an addict. So I know what oppression and vexation is. You explained sleep paralysis and demons attacking you you're a Christian. So it's like, we've got to understand that in a way where listen, like, okay, throw possession out the window, just take that out of your vernacular if that's going to get you triggered. Just realize the enemy is lurking. He can oppress you, vex you, torments you, and you need to understand how to bind and cast these demons away, cast them out. Yeah. And I know I get a little fired up. But it's like, that's my definition. Now, there may be variability there with people. But my whole point in saying that is like, and going back to kind of

1:14:56the witches and stuff in the new age and something that I've seen and I'm just going to be really honest is that on social media, these people bless their beautiful hearts who have come out and really want to serve Jesus. They are being propped up and elevated much to their dismay, much to their demise rather because there is no training up. There is no discipleship. And what I'm seeing happening is a lot of these ex witches and occultists are preaching the Bible after only a couple years being a Christian. And that can really lend into another area of deception not because they don't have good intentions. But good intentions can still be disobedience. And so my warning, I guess you could call it for all of us as believers, is love them. Yeah. Love them. But there is there are people that are called to teach. And unfortunately, social media is propping anybody and everybody with a beautiful testimony in pushing them into a teacher role where now they could

1:16:02actually be leading people in deception and they may not even know it. That is an excellent point. Yeah. That is a totally excellent point. And yet it is both in the accounts that you're in the situation that you're giving now. But also, I mean, we've seen such a in a way, the revival that the church had been talking about. My generation was going to bring this revival, you know, for 20, 30 years, I've been hearing that turns out it seemed to be Gen Z or, you know, this, we've got this very interesting by the numbers, you know, something like a revival, right? And you get a lot of new people finding Christ. And because of this attention economy of social media, you know, I worked in the church, was in church leadership for a long time. And you know, it's kind of a classic, you know, the new convert energy, right? Yeah. They're excited. They have such grace on their life.

1:17:04Things are happening. They're experiencing, you know, God in their life. They just want to get involved. They just want to get it out there. And where in a sort of traditional church setting, yes, there is, there is discipleship there. There is spiritual father and motherhood, which can speak into the different opportunities. Of course, sharing of one's testimony is so powerful. And we're all called to share our testimony. But like you said, there's a difference between testimony and then preaching or teaching in sort of a role like that. And so in the sort of social media church body, there's a lot less of those really helpful, you know, stopgaps between salvation and then, you know, the enemy sort of taking advantage of a lack of discipleship, right? Yeah. And that's

1:18:07really all it is. I mean, that's why scripture tells us to be disciple. I mean, even Jesus went away, you know, for that testing period for 40 days. And, you know, Paul trained up for years. And you know, the disciples trained under Jesus himself for, you know, what, three years. So it's like there has to be that training up. And, you know, only it only takes a couple of times. Like I experienced, you know, coming out of the church myself growing up in it, being naive, you know, it's kind of this like naivety of you just love everybody. You can just love them and love them and love them and you bring them in and you just, you know, you think that it's going to be a good thing. But it only takes one time. And that happened to me, you know, I was really, I took this girl under my wing before, you know, it was an counseling person. And she had come out of the new age. She was massively in a cultist. And they're, you know, very new Christian. And it was

1:19:08devastating. What happened. And, you know, and I'm not even blaming her. I'm just saying whatever she invited in, the sanctification and renewing of her mind hadn't had time to take place. So, you know, she's just operating out of flesh because she's a baby, baby Christian. She's like a newborn, you know, even if that, like I don't, you know, but that's where we just have to use that balance and that wisdom and discernment just to kind of navigate that in a way that's safe because it can be, it can be, oh yeah, in real life. It's such an interesting relationship between testimony and credibility, right? And especially as mature Christians, you know, there's in today's world and especially with the new exciting energy, you know, of new believers and things like this, it's easy to equate testimony with credibility. That because the testimony,

1:20:11you know, is amazing and maybe includes some really, whoa, big things and some really crazy experiences and some incredible transformation. That is different from credibility, credibility, right? And that's, you know, I worry about, I don't know, worry might be too strong a word, but I think about, you know, the all the new believers today and I include, you know, even the people in the whole age of re-enchantment, right? Everybody coming to a new knowledge of the supernatural and without access or without, I mean, goodness gracious, let's just call it how it is, without the algorithm pushing mature, you know, Christian influences into people's feeds unless

1:21:11they're seeking it out themselves, which I hope they are. You know, that's kind of another way where this sort of weird control, esoteric, beast system, algorithm, illusion, crafting, worldview, crafting, magic tech that is the internet. Another way the enemy can, it's like, he has so many backup plans, right? He's very clever. A lot of backup plans. Totally. I know and it's like, you know, it's, I try to say that gently and delicately, but also firmly in the sense of like, we just have to be, we have to be both aware, but also kind and compassionate and you can do both. You can hold both in your hands, you know, and that's what I try to encourage people. Like, you can have wisdom, like a serpent, but you can be innocent and kind and loving as a duck. Yeah. And, you know, it's that balance. And it is really a balance that has to be struck through,

1:22:16you know, God's grace. Oh, yeah. It's hard to experience. Yeah. Right. It's like, again, learn your lesson. Be careful when you ask God for wisdom, because what you're asking for is the experiences that bring wisdom. Right. Thank you. Oh, that's good. Yeah. So one of the things, as I listen to you to both of you guys, I am struck by another dimension to this concept of spiritual warfare. And obviously, you know, the direct contact with supernatural experiences, the interaction or casting out of demons, these types of things are traditionally what people understand as spiritual warfare. But I would argue that what you're doing, Amy, as a counselor, itself is actual spiritual warfare and much more practical, perhaps, but, and I say so because, are you familiar with Dr. Michael Heizer, his work with the Insignal? Oh, yeah. He was kind of

1:23:19our mentor and he was, we interviewed him. I think the first time we spoke to him was in 2013. And it was before he released Unseen Relman on that. And he was really big on, obviously, you know, the watchers and the Inocune worldview of Jesus' time and all that stuff is really theologically cool. But in terms of the application side of things, the way he describes spiritual warfare is something that I've really come to understand and take on as sort of a deeper study and a deeper look. And in his framework, it was, so there's defense. Obviously, armor of God, like there's a big call to stand firm, to endure, to all these themes biblically that we are going to get attacked. Like we are going to be constantly attacked. So, standard ground defend, these are things that are very principled in the Christian walk, if you will. But I'm always

1:24:19curious about like, what's, what's on, what do we do about offense? You know, do we do have a sword technically? It's, it's the word of God. But what are we supposed to do? And in, from what I understand, it's more about, because what we're doing here with spiritual warfare ultimately is, this is a kingdom versus kingdom war, right? That at the cosmic level, it's God's kingdom versus the kingdom of darkness. And we're sort of ponds in this game. And we are jobs as Matthew 28 says, it says go therefore make disciples of all nations. And that's really the ultimate offense is to get people to turn from the kingdom of darkness and come over to the kingdom of Christ. And in that, it's, it's very simple in that way. But evangelism, the great commission, these things become the literal offensive acts of spiritual warfare. And then,

1:25:25of course, you know, one, you can get into the minutia, the technicalities of how that effects or how, what that looks like in terms of the, the spiritual side of things. But I think it's very simple in that way. And to, to the conversation you guys are having just now, I pulled up Ephesians 4 here. I thought it was really appropriate starting in verse 11. And it was he who gave some to the apostles, some to the prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers to equip the saints for work of ministry and to build up the body of Christ until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants tossed about by the waves and carried around by every wind of teaching and by the clever cunning of men in their deceitful scheming and said speaking the truth and love and so forth. So we, to your point, yes, we need to love because if we're really practical about we wrestle not against flesh and blood,

1:26:28then all of the people, and I know Basil came to this sort of a very visceral, I guess encounter to have this epiphany. I haven't had something that intends personally, but as far as conceptually, I've always felt that if we're going to take that passage seriously in Ephesians 6 that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, then all of our fellow men, whether they be occultists or magicians or even Satanists or New Asia, whatever, they are people that God created, you know, to be imagers for God. And the real war is the real reality is that they are actually victims of the spiritual wickedness that has a hold of them. And so it's almost like we're trying to release them from that captivity. And that's more, and that allows us to do that to have that thing where we're seeing and we're calling out at the evil or the sin or whatever they're doing in their life,

1:27:33but then hold on to the value of who they are as individual because they are still images of God and helping them recognize that they have value just because they are alive and they woke up this morning and God gave them breath. And you know, you are a child of God, except it, you know, and then acknowledge it. And so I think just doing that, I know it's not fancy, I know it's not like exciting and it actually goes back to some much more practical forms of evangelism and some of the boring stuff I would say, but really if you look at the holistic spiritual or cosmic war that we're in, that's it, you know, we're just trying to get people to turn to Christ, get loosen from their captivity. And that's it. I mean, it's just truly light versus dark. There's not really a whole lot in between. So it feels like one of the differences that you're leading me to, again, so many things they seem intellectually obvious, but then when we really feel them,

1:28:37it's a little different. But one thing that, you know, again, doesn't matter who you are, your understanding of the supernatural almost everybody will come to the conclusion that there is some sort of competition going on. But one thing that sets aside, or sets apart sort of the true biblical understanding of this spiritual war is that human beings, us, each and every one of us, are not only the sort of agents of these, the agents of the war, perhaps the soldiers or the captives or whatever, but we're also the prize. Like we're the simultaneously, we're the actual territory. Simultaneously are the like boots on the ground, but also we are the prize, right, for the grand eternal battle that's been going on forever. And it feels like, you know, that's one that's one thing that can be easy to miss if sort of spiritual influences are dictating the

1:29:39understanding of the supernatural, which is a place that Christians could really step in and in shine in a culture that becomes more and more accustomed to understanding the supernatural. What really sets the biblical narrative apart is that we are the prize, right, we're the loot. And there's something there's something different about understanding ourselves as valuable in that way, but more so that God sees us as valuable that way, right? It's good. Yeah, it's really good. I love what you both said. I think that spiritual warfare is an interesting topic and going back to the idea of offense, you know, I think it's Romans that says, don't be overcome by the evil, something like that. Gosh, I wish I had it in front of me, overcome evil with good. That's it. And that shows that proactivity. So what I see a lot is a lot of defense. Like I cast out, I

1:30:44did it, I, you know, I bind, I annoyed and it's this defense only and that's only one part of the battle. Yes, it's good to do that. But are you actively standing firm and or gaining ground? And that means replacing the lies with the truth or you can know it. And this is the biggest, you know, a double-minded man is unstable in all of his ways. Why is he double-minded? Because he knows it, but he doesn't do it, right? So in that creates instability and you're like rocking on a notion. However, if you know the truth and then you act on that truth, you are standing firm and you are gaining ground in the darkness because you're actually doing something with what you say you believe in. Faith without works is dead, but you've got to do something with what you say you believe in. You can sit here and tell me all day, oh, I'm a Christian, I believe in Jesus, I love him, but not do anything with your faith. I can tell my husband, I love him and never cook him anything, never wash his clothes, never give him a kiss on the cheek, right? And this is

1:31:47that kind of more offensive, like I would say, idea of like with my clients and with people that I work with. I'm like, you've got to recognize the beliefs in your life that you've accumulated and you've got to look at them and see if they line up with Scripture. If they don't, you've got to renew your mind and cast that out and then walk out that new truth. That's how you get set free. That's how you live a life abundantly despite trials. So, you know, to me, that's the heart of spiritual warfare in what I'm trying to teach people to. And it's hard to teach because it conceptually it makes sense, but will they do it? Well, we do it. We do it. I mean, I think that's so perfect. Because in our recent talks about spiritual warfare, we've had some of our own canarians share their experiences with spiritual warfare in their lives. And something that comes up sometimes, and it's, you know, I think this is maybe something that

1:32:51is like should be part of like spiritual warfare, or sorry, spiritual warfare, boot camp, right? Because there are experiences that we will all kind of run into. And, you know, let's say that there's somebody in our lives and it's clear that they have some sort of oppression or vexation or something, again, I think coming down to the different categories is very important to know what you're dealing with. You know, it's very important. But perhaps they're praying against it, perhaps they're laying hands on their family member. And just things don't quite happen the way that they want them to. And sort of the, you know, the common wisdom is like, well, okay, maybe I have a foothold of sin. Maybe I, maybe it's something about myself is stopping, you know, the effectiveness of me praying for this against the spirit or something. And it's always good to examine,

1:33:56you know, our own position or the our own state of affairs. But I get the impression that, you know, we can kind of fall into or we can get stuck in a bit of a self, I don't know, a self criticism. Like, oh, I can't cast out this demon because I'm not like powerful enough in the Holy Spirit or something like that. And, you know, like you said, there's a lot of elements of this to really understand because it may just be the fact that, you know, God has a plan for this situation. And there's something else. Maybe you're not supposed to do it. Or maybe, maybe this one is not cast out by laying on a fans. Maybe this one is just where you do the sort of boring work of loving that person, you know, or something. What would you, what would you say to someone who's maybe got a situation in their life, they're considering it's spiritual warfare, they're praying or trying

1:35:00things and it just doesn't seem to be getting better. Yeah, that's that's a real thing. You know, I've actually experienced that in my life too, not just with myself, but I had one person that I was working with and it was her little girl. And, you know, without getting into it to personal, there wasn't a healing that took place right then and there. And that can be hard sometimes because you just want them to be healed. You want to understand that that God doesn't want that for them either, but it's back to what you said. It isn't necessarily reflective of you. Again, the focus is on you or me, right? What's wrong with me? And it's good to take the plank out of my own eye, you know, really be above reproach and really seek the Lord prior to entering into those types of things. But after that, you have to say, well, do I trust God in his timing? Because it could be a timing thing. It could be the next person that meets this little girl that needs that revelation

1:36:02of the Holy Spirit that when that little girl gets healed, that person is for that person that God knows about. You know, and again, when we think back to scripture and we think about, you know, Matthew, where if they're cast out and they come back and that house, you know, is an occupied, it'll come back stronger. And I know for me as a Christian, I said those prayers, you know, hugging the toilet as an alcoholic, I was like, I promised I'll never drink again. Lord, please help me help me. I drink again. And it's worse. It is worse. So there's that aspect too, because God knows that if you get set free, and this is just a tiny tangent, I'll make it short, if you get set free and you cannot maintain that freedom, because you don't understand how it got there in the first place, right? The beliefs and the things that kept that rooted, you know, because addiction a lot of times isn't the addiction. It's what's driving that addiction. That's a coping mechanism or it's generational or what have you. So if you can't maintain that

1:37:05freedom, they're going to come back worse. You don't want that. So God in His mercy allows you to work through some things, allows you to renew your mind or what have you. And then when you get to that point where it's casting out a demon or what maybe you don't even have to because your mind has been renewed where the light is, the darkness can't stand. And so a lot of times it's that. I see that in my own practice. It's people recognizing the lies that they've believed for years. I have to be perfect. I can only be loved if I meet these expectations. You know, you hear it all, right? That's their belief and that contradicts scripture. So once they recognize that and then start walking out and applying the truth of God's word and replacing it, they're delivered. There's no casting out of anything because they're like, my mind has been renewed. And it's like the coolest, most beautiful thing. I it's and I went on a tangent. No, that was. Oh, please. That was not a tangent. Okay. We go on tangents. You are a valuable wisdom. And so please don't cut, don't ever

1:38:12cut yourself short here. Goodness gracious. Yeah. You know, I you've been so gracious and generous with your time. We are around noon here. I don't know if you had a hard out or anything like that. But before we land the plane, I want to make sure that people know how to connect with your work, how to connect with the podcast. But also, you know, it's I've we've been loving what I think I've we've been noticing more recently than we have before, at least as far as guests on the podcast. But this very practical vocational work of counseling in the context and paradigm of the supernatural and spiritual warfare, right? So, you know, I don't know if you're what your thing is. But if you've got a place you can share with people to get more info, please do. Yeah. Well, thank you.

1:39:16I appreciate the opportunity. And you know, I will say this. It's kind of funny. When I first started my page, I was like, how's this going to impact my counseling? I'm like, talking about all this crazy stuff. Are people going to want to counsel with me? And I'm telling you God is like, yes, they will. And I have people that come to me and say, I could never go to any other counselor because they wouldn't believe me. Yeah. They wouldn't believe that I had an experience like you expressed basil. They wouldn't believe that, you know, I think the nephalema, whatever, you know. And that's the beauty of just walking out what God has set forth for you. And I love what I do. You can find me on Instagram. Eyes on the right. Eyes on the right podcast. Eyes on the right podcast is my podcast of I'm working on a website page for that. But if you do need counseling or you want any of the resources with spiritual warfare, it's biblical guidance counseling.com. So love it. Beautiful. Straight for we're going to make sure to include that biblical guidance.

1:40:19Guidance counseling. A love love a straightforward website like that. That's very good. Yeah, wonderful. Thank you. Well, goodness gracious. Amy, I do encourage because I, you know, I know, again, we're in this place where new dichotomy has opened up between a sort of mainstreaming of the vast and endless possibilities of learning about the supernatural and the Bible and prophecy and things. And for those who have been around a little bit, we maybe it's just our natural inclination to be suspicious of the main movements and trends of culture. It seems those who are really grounded and have put in the time in these topics are now drawn hopefully down to almost like down a funnel to the practical and personal that we are called to live out on a regular basis.

1:41:23Not just, you know, talking about fun crazy stuff. So I am so grateful that God and Rod connected us to introduce not only, again, not only the sort of wisdom and experience that you bring, but even this like real grounding in our everyday lives, the truth and grace that comes with the spiritual warfare that we're engaged in all the time. So thank you very much. Thank you. This has been fun and it's my pleasure. Yeah, and, you know, maybe I'll have to reach out some other time because I would be very curious to hear your testimony and experience about going non-anonymous just to get out. Not that I'm thinking about it. Not that I would ever. Not that I even have anything to gain because this has been anonymous on the internet successfully for,

1:42:26I think we're going on 15 years. So it's pretty impressive. Well, that's part of you. I know. I mean, what would happen to my brand if I didn't have the googly eyes? Nobody ever even recognized me. But, but I am getting out and it's been interesting testimony. I'll get from you some time there. But it sounds like it's worked out. I mean, it has, and I'll just say this. I mean, I think that, you know, as a counselor, like it's nice to see the people like that connection versus just a voice for someone in my profession. So that's one of the reasons. Well, God bless you, I mean, there you there you go, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to go check out Eyes on the Right Podcasts and the social media and biblical guidance counseling.com. And of course, make sure to tune in next time to Canary Cry Radio. But until then, I think outside the cage.