Every Key Moment From the Lindsay Clancy Trial, Blake Lively's Final Humiliation, and Brian Entin's Dispatch From Clancy Courtroom | Ep. 1386

0:00Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show live on StereoSexam channel 111 every weekday at Neast. Hey, everyone on Megan Kelly. Welcome to The Megan Kelly Show and Happy Wednesday. Coming up later, got some thoughts on Melissa Gilbert trying to rush into the Hayden Penitier story with her torch talking about how we really need to protect young women in Hollywood. Tell it to your pervert husband. This is unbelievable. This is like a self, this is an attempt to like rehabilitate herself and her reputation because she was on the phone with the police when they were laying out what the allegations were against her husband. This is in a separate case, accusing him of being a possible pedophile. She knew all about it and yet she ran out to the public airwaves and tried to cloak herself in glory as somebody who stands up for children under threat in Hollywood.

1:01Now she's doing it again. Since that moment, we've had multiple women come forward and accuse her husband of me towing them when they were very young and in his trailer or at his theater, over and over and over. And now she wants to be the one to step in and say, I will lead it. I will lead the turnaround in Hollywood as we now protect young women in Hollywood. Please set this one out. No one needs you, Melissa Gilbert. Why don't you worry about your own family's problems? All right, we'll get to her in the next hour. Plus we will also be joined by Brian Enten of News Nation, who will be giving us the latest on what's happening in court today when it comes to this Lindsey Clancy trial. We are still a couple months out, but the midterms are fast approaching and make no mistake if the house flips, it's a big deal for our economy. That uncertainty is one of the reasons to consider diversifying now with gold from Birch Gold Group. In the three months leading up to the 2024 presidential election, the price of gold jumped over

2:0512%. Why it's a hedge against uncertainty. If you do not own gold, consider talking with Birch Gold. They will discuss your goals and explain how precious metals can fit into your savings. They could even help you convert an existing IRA or 401K into an IRA in gold for no additional money out of pocket. Text the letters MK to the number 989898 and get a free infocate and some solid information. The midterms will be here before you know it. Don't wait. Text MK to 989898 now. I wanted to take the first hour today to look at what has happened during this case, because I think there are a lot of people who have very strong feelings about it and who are wondering why it's dominating the national conversation and who don't quite know what to make of it. Because you've got two sides that are diametrically opposed on what level of culpability should be handed down to this woman, criminally speaking, legally speaking, who killed

3:07all three of her children. And it is complicated. It is complicated. I mean, let me start with this. Jeffrey Dahmer murdered many people, young boys and men. And viewer warning cannibalized them. Is it an extremely sick, psychotic person who was torturing people before he killed them? I'm not going to get into the details because it's too dark. But suffice it to say he tried to zombify them while they were still alive so they could stay with him forever and then would cannibalize them after killing them. This is a seriously, seriously effed up person. If anybody would ever meet the definition of legally insane, it should be somebody like a Jeffrey Dahmer. Did that happen? No. That was rejected the insanity defense in his case. There like here the debate was not, will this person go free?

4:08It was will he go to the mental facility or will he go to the lock up facility, the jail facility? And in that case, the jury said we reject the insanity defense. We find him guilty and he went to jail and didn't end well for him there. A jury rejected the insanity defense of Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm sorry, but Lindsay Clancy is far closer to sane than Jeffrey Dahmer was, but she's trying the same defense. She's saying that she was so out of her mind she wasn't in control or able to tell right from wrong when she committed this heinous crime, which was the strangulation death of her three young children, five, three and eight months. And the whole trial has been about whether she suffered from postpartum depression and issues

5:13brought on by her attempt to use medication like SSRIs or whether this was something much more serious, which is psychosis. Psychosis brought on by the fact that she had had a baby eight months earlier and or brought on by the serious medications that were prescribed her as she dealt with her depression, post the birth of her third child. And there are real problems in accepting this psychosis claim that she's making. But even if you accept it, that doesn't necessarily mean we are in a place where she is unable to tell right from wrong or have logical reason to thinking or plan with malice of fourth thought, the death of her children. I personally am not convinced that she suffered from postpartum psychosis or any psychosis at all. But even if she did, I don't think that this case is one for a not guilty by reason of

6:17mental disease or defect. I don't. There's too much ordered behavior and thinking around these crimes. This is not somebody who's clearly at her mind. I mean, Jeffrey Dahmer, again, zombifying his victims. Nope, not available to you. But Lindsay Clancy is going to be found not guilty by reason of disease or mental defect. I don't think so. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you one of the reasons why people are having such a hard time finding that mental clarity. I mean, it makes sense to me. I get it. And I completely give them this point that she was jumping up and down looking for help. You know, what happened to Lindsay Clancy wasn't actually her fault. In the same way, mental illness is really not the fault of anybody to whom it happens. You know, it can be a chemical thing. It can be a disease thing. It can be her inherited or hereditary genetic in some way.

7:18So it's not quote, her fault in that way. And so people have empathy for her because she was by all accounts, a loving mother prior to a few months after her third child was born. And then things started to go downhill. Her husband Patrick now ex-husband testified in this trial about the fact that she had her first child, Korra, and that delivery went okay. She too was a labor and delivery nurse, just like her mother in law. And she stayed for a maternity leave and then she went back to work. And he said it was very tough on her to go back to work on the first two children. She did not go back on the third child. But that the first two were very tough on her. She had like an intense concern, worry, fear, even of leaving the children. And you know, look, I think every working mom can relate to a feeling of dread or panic

8:22or concern at least in going back to work. I mean, I'm as professional a woman as they come. And I definitely had serious feelings of sadness and going back to work and leaving my children. You know, they're, they need you. And ultimately it's why I left Fox. I said the main reason, which is so that I could be with them more. But it's, it's literally like a God-given maternal instinct to want to see more of your children. And that's understandable. And if you are one of those people who's very lucky enough, like I am, to be able to see your children and help pay the bills and have a thriving career where, you know, you as a professional want to feel interested and just sort of lit up, you know, lit up by your job, by the excitement of it, you know, this job makes me feel that all the time. And my family loves that it does that for me. Then God bless you. Then you have, you know, you have it all. You do have it all. And that's how I feel. Just being able to work in news is a privilege. It's exciting.

9:23It's interesting. You meet so many fascinating characters. You help drive the narrative around the country's biggest stories. I love it all. And I've loved my colleagues in the news as well. So for me, it was a no brainer that I really did want to come back to work. But there's nothing you love as much as your children. So for me, the perfect balance was to find a way to do both. And thank God I've been able to do that. Now for a lot of mothers, it's not possible. And I think for this mother, she was so, so torn up about going back to the office. Like maybe some of that mental struggle was already kicking in that it became like an an obsessive thing for her. So she did go back after Korra, her oldest. Then she had her, her middle child. And he was difficult. She had a tough time with Dawson. And the birth was very difficult. She, I was thinking about something. In today's day and age, they shame mothers no matter what choice they make.

10:27Whatever, you have IVF. They'll shame you for that now. You have C-section. They'll shame you for that now. Whatever. You have an epidural. They'll shame you for that. The crazies will judge your mothering from the time of conception forward. Unfortunately, this is just how life is. But she had a difficult birth with Dawson because according to the husband, he was in the breach position and it was a very difficult labor. And she had significant tearing and so on. Now if she had just made the decision with her OB to have a C-section prior to delivering this child, there's a community of people that'd be shaming her for that. Oh, that's not the healthiest thing for the baby. How dare you? Why didn't it? There's a weird collection of women that don't think your baby counts if you don't have him or her vaginally. It's very strange. But I still have a child. I made a child. I carried a child and I delivered a child. Stay the fuck out of it. Okay. So anyway, she gives birth to the second child Dawson and he's a difficult one according

11:32to her account. It was a difficult birth and he remained a difficult child. He's the one she posted on Facebook about writing about just how tough he was. And that's tough on a young mother. She's got two kids. She's mostly the primary caregiver, although it does seem the husband was a loving father. And then they had a third child, which I have to say was not a good idea for this family because she doesn't seem like she was ever really together. I mean, she just seems like she was starting to teeter in some ways even before the birth of Calum, her third baby. And then she had him. This crime happened in January of 2023. Calum was born in the previous summer. And what the experts have said in this trial is that postpartum depression and its evil cousin postpartum psychosis is really not something that generally happens for eight months after postpartum psychosis is generally they've testified around a three month thing.

12:39At most, you have it in the intense hormonal experience that women have post-birth. And so that's one of the reasons people have been skeptical of her claim that she was psychotic at the time she killed the children. That plus in all of her interactions with the doctors and the medical profession, she never said she was hearing voices ever, ever prior to killing her kids. She did say that she was having thoughts of harming the children to her husband and to her mother at least one time. That those other two have testified to. Lindsay hasn't testified. But the husband and her mother have both testified. She said that. And then when she was asked, are you, do you have a plan to her member yourself? She said no. And she was asked by the husband, do you feel that you can't be alone with them? And she said no. No, she was just voicing that she'd had a thought of hurting them. Now, look, if my spouse said I'm having thoughts of hurting the children, he would never

13:45be alone with them again until I was 100% convinced he was passed all that thinking for this family. I mean, it's tough to really point the finger at the father because boy, he paid the ultimate price for that mistake. But she never told anybody she was hearing voices in the way a schizophrenic does or somebody who's psychotic may. That was not told to anybody until she woke up in the hospital. And for the first time, this was a new narrative when she's chained to the bed and understands very well. She's lived through her suicide attempt and she may never see the light of day again because her three children were not so lucky in living through her attempted destruction. So the best thing going for Lindsay Clancy is that she has a great lawyer. His name is Kevin Reddington. He's they're calling him red, her weird fans, her sick of fans who somehow are mistaking

14:46this trial as like a referendum on whether postpartum depression is real. Hello, it is. Everybody knows that you and your problems are not untrial. Ladies, though you have significant ones and you really ought to look into them. This is about whether she had the capacity to understand right from wrong in the moment. She killed those children. And I think the prosecution, though they are absolutely losing the likability contest, the ADA trying this case is odd and not relatable and nowhere near as likable as Kevin Reddington, which is a factor. It's a factor for sure. The jury's bonding much more with defense counsel in my estimation than they are with the ADA. That's bad for the prosecution, but she is putting on, in my view, the case she needs to put on. And her last two rebuttal witnesses, though the one alienated the judge and got scolded for not answering the questions, which is not great.

15:46You know what, your witness to show to the jury that the judge doesn't, to that he's on the other side of the judge, that the judge who's like their daddy, the jurors see the judges like their daddy, their boss, their godfather, their protector. He's, we get to the point where that judge is telegraphing. He doesn't like this witness, this Dr. Avram Mc. That's not great. You don't love that as the prosecutor, but she called these two witnesses in rebuttal as the last thing she's got the burden of proof. And so she gets the first word and the last word. And so she got the rebuttal case and she put on her cheek case in chief. She rested, the defense put it on its case. They rested and then she put on her rebuttal witnesses, including these two psychological experts. And I think one was a psychologist, one was a psychiatrist and they had examined Lindsey, though not until three years after the crime. But they both examined her and they both said, this is not somebody who suffered from psychosis. And this is somebody who had ordered thinking and understood what she was doing was wrong.

16:51One, addressed the defense's argument that this was altruistic filiside, meaning she killed the children because she did it out of in her head, out of love. She wasn't some homicidal maniac killing because killing's fun or she grew to hate the children. It was, I'm going to kill myself and they can't live without me and shouldn't live without me. So I'm going to take care of them in heaven. This is something put out there by the defense. And the testimony in rebuttal was, you know, okay, but that's not somebody who, that's not disordered thinking. It's a belief. That's a thought in your own head that your kids will be better off dead if you're dead. That is not mental insanity. That's a, that's a deranged thought.

17:52I mean, it's not, it's not something that, you know, the your average person would think, but it doesn't excuse you from responsibility for the crime. And we had a, um, members only, Q&A with the people who have joined our YouTube, YouTube.com slash Megan Kelly members only on Monday night. It was actually very fun. We had it at nine o'clock and so many of you joined and we had great exchanges about the MK confidential series we've been doing on crimes. And we talked about this, but this, we just featured two weeks ago, the case of John List, who was a family annihilator in New Jersey. And John List in 1971 killed his wife, he shot her in the head. He went upstairs to the third floor, killed his mother who was living with them, shot her in the face, then waited until the school day was over. And as his children started coming home, killed each of them one by one. And one of the main things that was driving him when he was killing the children was,

18:53well, now I've killed their mother and they, so they have to go like I can't let them come in and find their dead mother and their dead grandmother and let them live. That's too cruel. So I have to kill them and I have to kill them right away with one shot to the head so that they don't know that they're being killed. And he worried about the family's finances. He had lost his job and he hadn't told anybody and he couldn't keep a job because he was a strange psychopath. But he couldn't keep a job and he kept losing jobs so he was going to lose potentially the house they were living in, which was sort of lavish. They were going to lose status. His daughter had become an actress, an aspiring actress, she's only 16, but she was trying her hand at acting, not quite 16. And he thought that was some sort of debauchery or alleged devil worship. He was worried about her soul. So he killed his children out of altruistic philocyte. And though he got away with his crime for some 18 years, he created a new identity.

19:55You got to go back and listen to the whole series. It's actually really compelling. It's available on our YouTube feed and on our podcast feed now. But he got away with it for 18 years until he was featured on America's Most Wanted with John Walsh and then he got caught under a new name in a new town with a new family. And he tried this. He tried this at his defense. And really though I don't think he used those words argued altruistic philocyte. He did not kill his family out of hate. He did not hate his family. He loved them. He killed his family out of some weird sense of obligation and love and to quote spare them, spare them the shame of less money, less prestige, the daughter who was on a bad path and so on. And we thought they would go to be with God. He wanted them to be with God. Same thing. You know, different dressing, but same thing. And it was soundly rejected by a jury. And he was sent off to prison for the remainder of his life, which I think is what should

20:55happen to Lindsay Clancy. There's a lot of testimony about her clear thinking and don't mistake mental insanity. It can be present without legal insanity being found by a jury. I mean, to some extent, anybody who murders another person unless it's like, you know, you murdered their child, you did something like that. You wouldn't look at that father or mother and say that's an insane person. But murder, murder for, you know, petty reasons always feels at a minimum irrational. And in many cases, if not most, insane, like an insane choice. You know what this is going to do. You're going to end somebody else's life. You're going to play God and you're probably going to sentence yourself to a death sentence of some sort, whether it's the death of your life of freedom or your actual death in states that have the death penalty.

21:56So, you know, there's a lot of mentally deranged people out there who do not get a legal insanity finding by a jury because while it's nuts to kill somebody, they weren't found incapable of understanding the wrongness of their actions in the moment. And I think too many people are conflating those things in this case when they talk about Lindsay Clancy. I have empathy for her as somebody who was a good mom and was leading a good life, which wasn't out there committing crime, serially or even once before. But something happened to Lindsay Clancy. I, I listened to the testimony, saw a gentle deterioration after the first child, but after Calum was born, it was precipitous. And you could see as we got into the fall of 2022 that she really started to go downhill. She couldn't sleep. She was obsessed with his sleep schedule. She was trying to put him on, you know, a sleep schedule where you let the baby cry through

22:58the, the night to get him to sleep. Now everybody's like, all that's a cruel thing to do. Okay, you know what? I did it with my kids literally one night. They cried. I didn't go get them. It wasn't an hour long cry. It was like 20 minutes. They went back to sleep. They were sleep trained after that. I was giving them the gift of sleep. They all three of them to this day are great sleepers. I think because we did that because we gave them one night weight until they were a little older, you know, it wasn't right away. But then they slept through the night, a night too thereafter, every night after they didn't need anybody else to get them back to sleep. They learned to self-south. They're three delightful, well-adjusted children. So just stop with the armchair. Everything has to be re-examined because Lindsey Clancy tried something that didn't work for her. I mean, this mother's fraught. She's full of nerves. Like, I just think you ever see super anxious kids and then you meet the mom and you're like, mm-hmm. Okay. I think there's a fair amount of that happening here where it's like, if you're some bundle

24:02of nerves, really, you should really give it some serious thought before you reproduce. Because not only are you passing on those genetics to a child, but then you are the primary caregiver. And if you are a bundle of nerves, your kid is probably going to be a bundle of nerves too. Whereas if you have a general relaxed countenance, I don't know, an ability to deal with adversity in a way that is mature, then you're going to pass that on to your child. Not everybody should be a parent. Like conservatives go too far when we just start shaming people out. I was like, well, I don't have children. I just want to be foot loose and fancy free. Why are we shaming them for that? Well, I mean, I've participated in this to some extent, not really, but a little bit. And that's wrong. Not everybody should be a mother. Not everybody should be a parent. Not everybody's cut out for it. So she had the third child, the fall of 2022 came around and she started to go downhill.

25:05She couldn't get the baby on a sleep schedule and she couldn't get Dawson to sleep or behave the middle child and her sleep started to suffer. And this is devastating. I mean, ask any woman in menopause what it's like to operate on no sleep. And I was like, it's rough. So you can do with a lot of things, but sleep is not one of them. And she started to go to medical providers and ask for help. And of course, the woman she wound up in the care of had been done with her residency for about two minutes. I mean, like literally, and never saw her in person, only examined her via Zoom. It's like, it's so fucked up. I'm all for telemedicine. I really am. It's like it can be great. When used to supplement actual in office appointments where there are hands placed on you and actual exchanges where you look in the eye and you get somebody's aura and you

26:10get their vibes. You get their body language. You see if they're shaking, you're like, all these things. When somebody has an alcohol problem, one of the things that starts to happen when they're not drinking is they shake. How would you know that on telehealth? If they got their hands down here, can't see them. It's not like their shoulders are shaking. It's the hands. That's the first tell. If you've ever known anybody who's an alcoholic, you know what I'm talking about or drug addict. What the telehealth is, a supplement. It's not a replacement for in office visits. So I'm not impressed with this doctor, Taft, at all, who was the primary, tough, I should say, who was the primary psychiatrist, who she went to see. Of course, the psychiatry field being what it is, the knee jerk reaction, just as soon as your leg kicks when they hit it in the knee at the doctor's office, was to put around an SSRI. She tried a couple of combinations. They tried the one, the Zoeloft, that doesn't work. They tried the other one, the Prozek.

27:12Okay, that doesn't work. Try this other one. And Lindsay Clancy started seeking different doctors and different meds. And that's not a great plan either because they're not coordinating. And things just went into a downward spiral. And there's no question this woman wanted help. I will say that for Lindsay Clancy. And I think this is one of the reasons why so many people have such empathy for her. She wanted help and she was jumping up and down begging for it. She told the husband, she told her mom, she told her mother-in-law, she told these doctors who she was consulting with. She called a suicide hotline twice and spoke about wanting to hurt herself. But because she didn't have a plan, they said, we can't help you. That is so beyond F'd up. There was testimony just yesterday with one of the prosecution's rebuttal witnesses where Kevin Reddington asked, what would that do to somebody who's suicidal? It's called the suicide hotline and be given the back of the hand, the stiff arm.

28:13No, you don't have a plan. Okay, bye. I get it. He's making good points. That's insane. The suicide hotline needs to have a come to Jesus moment about helping the people who have gone to the trouble to tell you they want to kill themselves, but haven't yet come up with the plan. What they called too soon? They call me back when you've got the news. That's crazy. So I think all of us have empathy for her because this isn't somebody who just started to go downhill and then kept it a secret and didn't tell anybody and denied that she was having thoughts of harming herself or the children only to then do it. And also with a boyfriend on the side who didn't like children, right? Like we've seen in some of these other infamous cases involving women who killed their children. This isn't that. She was begging for help and the medical system around her did a piss poor job of helping her.

29:13They did. So that's why a lot of people say, how can we blame her? These things came over her. You know, she was dealing with depression, depression, insomnia and so on. She did the right thing. She went to doctors. She asked for help. They gave her, quote, help and air quotes. The medications made the problem worse. So it appeared and there's always an adjustment period when you go on these SSRIs. You know, they got to figure out how to titrate it and how to easy you into it. And if it's not the right drug, reportedly they only help like 30% of the people. Like if you get the Zola, you might 70% of the people are not going to be helped by it. And so there, it's like this trial and error period while the person's suffering. And if they just pull up stakes and they don't have one person running hurt on their care, things can go south, you know, because then they go find another doctor and start a new and then that person doesn't right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing. And before you know it, you're, you're really playing with fire. But the bottom line is we don't in this society say, oh, I'm, I'm sad.

30:13She was dealing with a lot. I guess she's not responsible for taking three lives that it's not a question of whether you can feel for her because she was troubled. She was troubled. She was troubled. It's a question about whether legally when she committed this act, she could understand what she was doing was wrong. And she did understand that. She absolutely understood that. That's why I believe the jury has a very real chance of accepting the prosecution's argument that she sent her husband out of the home. She Googled the route to the restaurant. She sent him to pick up food at, which was not their normal place. And it was farther, farther away from their house than the normal places that they would go. And she had Googled the route earlier. So she knew it would take longer.

31:14That, that is planning. That looks like somebody who had murdered on her mind and was planning how to get rid of the husband because the husband had been working from home. The husband knew she was a powder keg, though he had said that this was her best day, one of her best days. So he didn't see a warning sign that day. But he did not leave Lindsay alone with the children for a ton of time, though he had, he had a letter alone with them. The defense brought that out and testimony that there had been other times when he'd, she'd spent hours and hours alone with the children. But then he meant he was keeping a close eye from the sound of it. So she, I think, recognized she needed to send him out. She sent him to CVS for a children's stool softener and then to go pick up the food. And she knew the route because she had Googled it and chose a restaurant farther away. Then he left and he called her. He left right after five and he called her at around five thirty three.

32:18He was gone like from five oh nine to six just after six. And it was in that hour she, she killed the children and tried to take her own life. And he called her up and she missed the call but within seconds she returned to the call. They spoke for fourteen seconds. He said she sounded distracted like she was busy, like she thought she was maybe giving the children a bath and had a brief exchange about the medicine hung up. And by the time he got home his children were dead. So it appears by all intents and purposes that she was either in the midst of killing those children at five thirty three or had just killed the children. I mean, she understood to keep it a secret. She understood not to tell that he might get home to stop her and she didn't want that. It wasn't consistent with her plan of sending him out so she could get it done.

33:20And then she went upstairs and threw herself out the window. Now frankly, I don't understand the people who say this is a fake suicide attempt because she dove out the second story window like head first toward the ground twenty people low. It seems like a real suicide attempt to me. Some people are pointing to the superficial wounds. She tried to cut herself horizontally across the neck and horizontally across the wrists. And many people have said that's obviously a fake attempt because among other things she had Googled how do you cut your own carotid? I don't know what one finds when one Googles that but presumably somebody would have made clear to her. It's an artery that runs up and down on the sides of the neck, not in the center. You know where a man's Adam's apple would be. And some people are saying she's a nurse and she would have known that. I don't think nurses have quite the bio and the human biology exposure that a doctor gets with her own cadaver and all that.

34:22So it's possible she didn't know that or had forgotten or date got the wrong information from Google. Who the hell knows? But the point is if that's all she had done, okay, I could see it. This was a fake suicide attempt. She dove head first at the second story window. I accept she tried to kill herself. Not to mention the calls to the suicide hotlines and the multiple writings she had done. It emerged at this trial. She had Googled, sorry, she had written in her notes and pull up my own notes on it. So I'm giving you the accurate quotes. I'm by Sergeant Timothy Chappini testified on August 14th that they extracted highlights from her phone at the police department and she had she had Googled. Where is the carotid artery? Can you turn off airbags on a key as a rental? How to slit throat and die?

35:24She searched and she also searched. Can you treat a sociopath? Now that's really interesting. Can you treat a sociopath? Someone who has no empathy for others. No empathy whatsoever. It does not process human emotion the way the rest of us do. I mean, you, this is where her worst detractors go that she was one. She was a sociopath and that's why she killed the children that it wasn't even altruistic and fell aside. She's a sociopath who was done being a mother. The kids were kind of difficult. Her life was tough. She wasn't getting enough sleep. She didn't want to be a mother anymore. So she got rid of them. I'm not quite that cynical, but that is what some people believe about her. So she clearly did want to die. I mean, I don't think you Google how to slit throat and die.

36:24Can you turn off airbags of a Kia Sorento and where is the carotid artery if you're not thinking about dying? I mean, I suppose you could make the argument. She originally considered doing those things to kill her children. But there's plenty of evidence that she was calling suicide hotlines and telling providers that she was having thoughts of harming herself that I accept she wanted to kill herself. As it turns out she would live, she would become a paraplegic. Some people are suggesting she's a quadriplegic. She's not. She's moving her arms and her shoulders and her upper body. She's leaning over. She's a paraplegic and she's in a wheelchair in court right now. And I think she very much intended not to wake up when she jumped out that window. I think she did want to die. But none of that changes whether she knew right from Rome. And the doctors have testified about the methodical crushing of, because she also took pills

37:25before she jumped out the window, the methodical crushing of the pills, the lining up of the drink, like that would have taken time. It would have taken planning and so on. And all of that is evidence that she was of sound mind. She was making logical decisions and she had ordered thinking. All right, I want to go back over a couple of these points with actual trial testimony. And I'm going to start with Patrick Clancy. Here he is. And he was helpful both to the prosecution and the defense. He was called by the prosecution. But he had a lot to say that was helpful to Lindsay's defense as well. And here he is describing a bit of the background to Kevin Reddington on Cross on this is the CBS Boston, sought three. What kind of a mother was she? She was very dedicated. She did everything.

38:26She started reading the books at three months. And she made up songs for them. I remember she used to make green eggs and ham for a chorus because she liked that book. Did she do your observation? Did she love Dawson? She loved Dawson very much. Did she resent him? No. Okay, so she did not resent the children. And he is asked by the prosecution in the early months when she started having troubles. And he was still going out about what did you see in your wife, stop 4B? During those months when you're going to the beach and out on the boat and visiting with friends, were there any signs of anxiety and the defendant during those months? I would say starting September, yes, but in the previous months, not so much.

39:31When had she been scheduled to go back to work? I don't remember the exact date, but I think it was October. So again, it was that pattern of as it became closer in time to go back to work. She started to struggle. Yeah. During the times when she would get anxious, when it was time to go back to work and she would start being anxious, did you ever have any difficulty understanding her when she spoke? No. And did she ever exhibit any behavior that made you concerned enough to call a doctor or want to commit her? No. Here's the defense talking about that same timeframe, stop 5. What happened in September, October of 2022? Lindsay's mental health started to deteriorate.

40:34And when you say that, sir, what is it that you as your husband observed just increased stress and anxiety? Do you recall whether or not it's to your opinion that she had any reactions to the zoo wife that she had been placed on by Dr. Tufts? Yes. And along any observations that were made. Right. So it's not guesswork. It's observations that anything you saw and observed. Yeah. It seemed to align with her insomnia symptoms. Now the insomnia, inability to sleep, was that a significant problem from your observations with her? Yeah. It was a huge problem. Was there one point when she was on medication from Tufts that in fact she had gone 48 hours I think without sleep? Yeah. And that was disturbing to her? Yeah. And it was just hard to function. And how about you? Was it disturbing to you? I just wanted her to get sleep and feel better. Now here is her mother, Lindsay Clancy's mother testifying about a text she got same

41:39time frame, October 20th. I remember some of the children had three months to live from Lindsay. Listen here, I saw it. 19. Mom, will you please come up and stay with me for a bit? I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible insomnia all night and I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine. My doctor prescribed for anxiety. And I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary and I don't want to be alone. So she's reaching out. She's reaching out for help. Come stay with me. I'm really sick. Something's wrong. I think the medication has made things worse. And it was. It was making things worse for her. She was going downhill on these meds and she knew it. Back at home, by the time they got to January.

42:39She had already done a stint at the beginning of the month January in McLean Hospital. So she was hospitalized for a very short period. I think it was three or four days at the beginning of January, but was released. Here is a question back to the husband on what she was thinking, what she was like when she went to the hospital at the beginning of the month. Sat nine. Can you tell Jerry what her state of mind was as she went to McLean Hospital with her husband on New Year's 23 at that point? She was scared. She didn't want to go. But I think it was the second time we went to the ER and I said, you have to go. Do you know whether or not she saw a doctor or psychiatrist ultimately from McLean Hospital? I was not aware of that. The only one I was aware of was the doctor on the second or last or final day. What was that doctor good-hat?

43:39Yeah. And did you speak to Dr. Good-hat? I ended up calling her. I wanted to see what her evaluation was. And so I gave her a call and we spoke and she said, you know, she's clearly depressed. There was an occasion where she told you in the presence of her mother that she was having horrible fights, right? Right. And you told us about that yesterday. And that took quite an emotional thing for her to do that, right? Right. So he's testifying she was admitted into this McLean Hospital. This is post she'd been seeing Dr. Jennifer Toft via Zoom only, the one who had just finished her medical residency for those initial fall months in the September, October, November timeframe. By the time they get to New Year's Day, she needs to go in hospital.

44:40And that is where Dr. Alia Good-hat took care of her. She took the stand in this case and here's how that went prosecution and then a bit of defense set 25 and 26. Major depressive disorder severe without psychotic features. During this interaction with her on the January 3rd, did you observe any signs of psychosis? No, there's several things. She was future oriented. She was jelly invested in her children. She was a caring mother, just like a caring mother. She had her parents around to help her. She had family and supports. But in order for a person to receive intervention, they have to identify that they have an intent or a plan. And to your knowledge based on your experience and your conversations with this particular patient, did she ever indicate that she ever said she had a plan?

45:42No. No plan. These are apparently the magic words in psychiatry. So she was released and within three weeks she will have killed her children and tried to kill herself. Here's back to Patrick on first her suggesting he go to this 3V restaurant, which was farther away than the normal ones, SOT-11. I want to direct your attention to 4.53 PM that day. Did you receive a text from Lindsay about dinner? Yeah. And do you recall what it said? It's something along the lines of, do you want to get taken out? I haven't planned anything. Do you recall it saying any chance you want to do take out from 3V? I didn't cook anything. It's been a long day. Had you been to 3V restaurant previously, a loan or with the family? With the family.

46:44And approximately how many times have you been there to eat? Probably three times. And so you had all gotten in the car and driven from your home. Have you ever done take out from there before? Yeah. Where would you typically do take out when you were going to do take out at home? The chestnut grill. I think another one was West End Grill. Were those closer than 3V to your home? Yeah. So Lindsay suggested 3V and you agreed is that correct? Yeah. Did she send you another text at 456 PM asking you to take a look at the menu? Yeah. And did you send a text at 506 PM about Calon? Yeah, I asked if you had taken it out. And did she respond? Yeah. It's chilling to just know what's leading up to. What all of this is leading up to. He went on.

47:46This is when he was leaving the house. It's not 13. Who called in the order to 3V? Lindsay. Once the order was placed, what did you do? I came upstairs. I took Calon for a minute and I rocked him by my knees. I was in the case score on the head and I still bear it back. Do you remember what the defendant's, well, first of all, where was the defendant's seated when you left the house or what she's seated? She's standing. Where was she? In the doorway of the living room. And was that the doorway by the front door or the doorway by the basement door? It's doorway by the basement door. And did she have Calon or where was Calon? She had Calon. Okay. And what was her demeanor? Normal. One more before we take a quick break.

48:47Stop 14. His head. And did you receive a call back from her about a minute later at 5.34 pm? Yeah, that's correct. Okay. And can you describe that phone call for us? It was very brief. I just said, I think there was a generic brand and I said, is this one okay? And she said, yeah, that's fine. And what was her demeanor during the call? She's pretty quiet. It sounded like she was busy. I remember hanging up thinking she's probably in the middle of giving baths or something like that. So it sounded to you like she was in the middle of something? Yeah. Were you able to understand her when she spoke to you? Yeah. And did she seem to understand what you were saying? Yes. She stopped. She took a call. She was lucid. She did not sound out of her mind. They dealt with the business of the CVS. And then she went back to whatever she was doing in that particular moment, which was

49:47either killing the children or having killed them about to go upstairs and throw herself out the window. That's it. That is tough, tough, tough to argue. That's a psychotic woman in that moment. We'll pick it up there when we come back with Brian Enten. Don't go away. Our sponsor, the Electronic Payments Coalition, says Washington politicians are always getting in your wallet and that now they're messing with your credit card. They say your credit card and the security it offers are under attack and that senators Dick Durbin and Roger Marshall want to change the nation's payment system to benefit corporate megastores like Walmart and Target at the expense of everyday Americans. Credit cards can keep your payments secure and provide rewards that families use to help make everyday purchases more affordable. The Electronic Payments Coalition says the Durbin Marshall mandates would let corporate megastores cut corners on credit card processing, routing transactions over cheaper untested networks with weaker security and fewer protections.

50:47Find out more at guardyourcard.com and consider telling Congress to guard your card. When we left off, we had Patrick Clancy talking about his call with his wife when he was out running the errands. She sent him on and we know now that in the midst of that call somewhere around it, she was murdering their children and he has testified about what he saw when he came home, which was his wife on the front lawn injured but alive saying she tried to kill herself and it appears that at that point it didn't dawn on him that his children might have been hurt. He asks where they are and she says in the basement and it's not until EMS gets there to take care of Lindsay's injuries that he then goes to check on his children and unfortunately finds them in the most gruesome state possible. She's strangled them not with an exercise band as people are loosely saying but with a

51:51cord, it looks like a bungee cord, a different color for each child. They played in court the 911 call that he made upon that discovery. They did not release it to the public because presumably it's just so difficult and gruesome and awful but at some point it will become part of the public record. However, the Daily Mail had a reporter inside the courtroom who was there as it was played and she spoke with our next guest who I'll bring in after we play this Brian Enten. He's with news nation and she described the call. Here's that. It was one of the worst, the worst thing I've ever heard. It was the screams coming out of Patrick were just unearthly and guttural and unlike anything I've ever heard really. I think it's important to note that the beginning, as you say, that he went, he found Lindsay

52:58and he was panicked. You could hear the panic in his voice but he was still very coherent and he was able to talk to the dispatcher about getting emergency responders there. He was able to reassure Lindsay and then when emergency responders arrived he was heard saying, I'm just going to go check on the kids. You could hear him running down the stairs and then just these unearthly screams and yeah and then he was unable to speak. His words were indesernable until he screamed out, she killed the kids and I mean the whole courtroom was just torn apart by it. You know, it was during members were crying, Lindsay's parents were crying, members of the media, the public. Lindsay herself hunched over the defense table quietly sobbing but then when the judge immediately called the recess the second that stopped playing he cleared the courtroom and she broke down in loud and controllable sobs. I mean it was very distressing to everyone in that room.

54:02It's amazing to think of Lindsay Clancy sitting there hearing that description, hearing her husband find the scene and having an independent memory in her head of having done it, having caused it, having an independent memory in her head of strangling her three children who depended on her for everything. It's just unfathomable. Joining me now is Brian Enten. He's senior national correspondent for news nation. He's been on the ground covering the Lindsay Clancy trial and he's hosting a special on the CW next Wednesday, September 2nd about the case. Brian, welcome back. That was Rachel Sharp of the Daily Mail recounting are very probably the most difficult moment in court for all in attendance. You've been in there for the past few days watching. What are you seeing from this jury, which we know is 12 women, six men, that's 18, of course, but we just don't know which 12 will wind up becoming the actual 12.

55:03They keep the alternates watching the trial as though nobody knows where the final 12 will be. What are you seeing from them? Yeah, well, first of all, I'm outside the courthouse now and the bite you just played about the 911 call. It's interesting because the 911 call just came up again within the last couple of minutes. Dr. Safoff is on the stand who's a psychiatrist testifying for the prosecution. He testified, as you said, that Patrick Clancy spoke about how he talked to Lindsay and she talked about trying to commit suicide and sort of what happened and said that the kids were in the basement. But Reddington, the defense attorney was really pushing him on that saying, but on the 911 call, all you can hear are mones and screams from Lindsay Clancy, almost insinuating that Lindsay Clancy never said anything outside the house when she was on the ground. And it was just kind of an interesting back and forth. And I was trying to figure out what Reddington was trying to get out. Was he trying to point out that Patrick Clancy wasn't totally telling the truth. It was kind of hard to understand where he was going with it, but he was really pushing

56:05the psychiatrist on that. In terms of the jury, I've just been staring at them when I've been inside the courtroom trying to figure out what they're thinking. Because mostly women, you mentioned it, the women are almost all over 45 years old, well dressed. They seem very, very tuned in to everything. No one ever looks tired. You cover some trials and you can tell people are nodding off and they're exhausted by this point because it's been weeks. They don't seem like that at all. They're locked in all the time. Many of them are taking notes. And it's hard to say what they're thinking. Yesterday they seemed a little frustrated towards the end of the day because they've just been going back and forth during this rebuttal. And you two, the women kind of looked at each other and almost like world their eyes. Like here we go again because they keep going over the same thing. So they seemed a little frustrated yesterday, but definitely paying close attention. Frustrated at how the witnesses were performing or just the line of questions? I think it was the line of questioning yesterday because with this rebuttal, again, they just go back and forth so many times and it gets kind of repetitive.

57:09And I think that they were just kind of like, let's get the show on the road, kind of frustration. You know, I started the hour of the show today by talking about the difference between Jennifer Spray, who's the assistant district attorney trying the case and Kevin Reddington and how much more likable he generally is in that courtroom and very effective too. Jennifer Spray is getting a very different, you know, I don't, just having very different feedback, Brian, people don't seem to much like her or the way she's performing in there. Are you seeing any of that? It described the differences in counsel. Yeah, and they had a little bit of a stat maybe 20 minutes ago in there that was actually kind of funny. He kept calling her Spray and she didn't like that and she kind of butted in. She said attorney Spray. And then he again purposely called her Jen Spray and she just kind of rolled her eyes, but then he later called her attorney Spray. So he's very, very confident. I mean, it almost feels like he is in full control of the courtroom even in a way that the judge is in control.

58:09And you can tell that him and the judge go way back. He seems to know the courtroom staff. I mean, he's 75 years old. He still does 10 trials a year. He says, so he kind of knows everybody and it's full confidence. And it's sort of just a different vibe with her. And she just kind of seems grumpy most of the time. And just that kind of personality hasn't really come through with her. And even after court every day, Reddington comes out and he talks to the media and he doesn't you know, when you cover some trials, you know, they'll like rush out and they'll run to their car. I mean, he stops. He talks every day. He answers everybody's questions where she just kind of goes out of back door and you never really hear from her. Yeah, you never do with the prosecution. But what about talk about Lindsey Clancy's presence inside that courtroom? What you've been covering it, watching it through the screen as we all have and then you get out there last week and now you see now you're in the courtroom that we've all been watching on screen and you get to lay eyes on Lindsey Clancy sitting there in the wheelchair.

59:11Tell us what you saw in your reactions. Yeah, it's an interesting vibe in the courtroom, especially on Monday because there were so many, I mean, it's you got the media in the corner, but then the rest of the room is filled with 99% women who are there to watch the trial. Some of them are in the pink shirts supporting Lindsey Clancy and then you got the women in the white shirts who are, they say supporting the kids and then Walt Lindsey Clancy to be found guilty. And they're all throughout the courtroom. So it's interesting that they're in there and they're in their different color shirts and she clearly sees them. During the testimony, she just kind of looks dead on without really kind of much emotion. Well, I know she has some emotional outbreaks early on, but since I've been here this week, I haven't seen much emotion. The most interesting moment for me was there was one day when court ended, they were going into a break and they kind of wheeled her away from the table so she was almost facing the door. As I was walking out, we kind of locked eyes for a second and it was just strange looking at her knowing what she did. I mean, she's admitted to doing it. And also, I mean, she's really put together that that was the other thing I kind of thought

1:00:14of like her hair is done nicely. She's clearly like curled it every day. I mean, I don't know what women do, but it's like, you know, like a flat iron or whatever. And she's got like a nice clothes. She's got like a nice clothes on. She doesn't look to shoveled at all. She doesn't look like mentally ill. She looks like totally with it, but she's just there in the wheelchair. And I've actually heard from some sources outside the courtroom connected to the case that her mental health right now, they say is actually very good. That, you know, she is fully with it now and it feels like that in court. Do we have any idea on the medical cocktail, what they did to get her to this point? Because one of the main points that the prosecution is making is, okay, she allegedly heard the male voice telling her to commit these murders. So convenient that she had never heard it before, never before. She said to the father and to her own mother, I'm having thoughts. I'm having thoughts. Those are her words of killing, not killing, but of hurting the children. Do you have a plan? No.

1:01:14And Patrick said I felt comfortable leaving her with the children and had before with nothing happening. But never had mentioned voices, a male voice or someone instructing her in her mind on what to do until this is what the prosecution's experts are saying, the 18 minutes in which the crime happened, which is, you know, which they found very suspicious. I think we have that hold on a second. Yeah, here it is. This is Dr. Kirk Halburn making this point, sought 35. The way she described this is happening is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before, experienced an hallucination. And she's never experienced it since, but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes or so that it took to kill the children. And to put it mildly, that would be a very, very unusual pattern or manifestation of how

1:02:20this kind of thing comes about. Why is that, Dr? Why are you careful when someone tells you that they only experienced this voice during a criminal offense? Well, because it provides a convenient way of lessening your own culpability. Okay, so that's him casting doubt on whether she really heard the voice. We do know that if she did hear the voice, it was only that time. It was only the day the murders, no record of her hearing it before. And no record, it seems to be undisputed. She never heard it from the time she was found on the lawn. There after her defenders will say that's because she's on a different set of meds now, she's been hospitalized. Do we know what happened on the medications before versus after? We don't exactly, it's been very confusing following the medications because they were changed so many times and then there were times that she chose not to take the medicine.

1:03:20So it's been kind of unclear exactly what medicines she was on at what time, including when the murders happened. But again, today, the psychiatrist on the stand is saying something similar to what Dr. Helburn said that he's not convinced that it was actually a voice. He thinks that it was more of a thought that she was having these thoughts and that she's confusing it with hearing the voice just because this psychiatrist today, who by the way is like the top scientist for the FBI behavioral analysis unit, says that it would be unusual to just have, as you said, the voice in that one period granted Kevin Reddington, the defense attorney has been calling him out and calling the psychologist you played out from yesterday because they didn't really spend much time with Lindsey Clancy. I mean, today's psychiatrist literally did a one hour zoom with her and this was only a couple of months ago and has even admitted that examining someone years after something like this happened is not the best way to do it. So he's been trapped in the kind of poll calls and will they really even know what she was

1:04:23experiencing? Here is that FBI doc that you referenced Dr. Gregory Sadoff talking about the same issue about if you're really psychotic, the voice doesn't come and go. Here is at 0-3. This is Court on Tuesday. Dr. Based on your training and experience in dealing with diagnosing and treating people who have psychosis and what you've learned in all your training in schooling, is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice only one time never before, never after? No. And again, based on your training experience, is it typical for someone in psychosis to hear a voice that's constant rather than intermittent? No, that is not typical. And is it typical based on your training and experience for someone to hear command to

1:05:24hallucinations and then for them to stop abruptly? No. Committing the act is not curative of the voice. I've not ever seen that. And yet the defense put up experts of its own Dr. Paul Zyzel and Philip Resnick who did say that she had documented with them hearing the voice that this was psychosis and that she was being controlled, she thought by an outside force. Here's just a bit of that, Brian. This is Dr. Philip Resnick who testified for the defense. He also testified at the Andrea Yates trial and has consulted on a lot of trials, including the Jeffrey Dahmer trial, which I opened the hour talking about, South 30. And at your time of the crime itself on January 24, 2023, his pregnancy was frankly psychotic.

1:06:26Those are dangerous command hallucinations. Now in Ms. Clancy's case, she had not only a command hallucination on the day that she killed her children. She had was known as a delusion of interwoven. That is not only did she hear a command, but she felt that her body was taken over. By an external force where she was in the deepening state and did not have control of her own body, it was almost like she was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings. So this jury has had quite a few medical experts saying diametrically opposed things to them, Brian. And many people believe it's going to come down to just how sorry do they feel for Lindsay Clancy if at all?

1:07:28Yeah, and I keep hearing this term like the battle of the experts and it really is because there's been even since I've been here, so many experts who have all said like literally the opposite things and even the prosecution doctors evaluated her together. They went into the hospital together and evaluated her at the same time and had different theories about what actually was going on in her brain. You have to, it just makes you think about psychiatry. I never really thought about it this much until I was sitting there like just what a non-exact science it is that you've got all of these different doctors who can't even agree on exactly what happened here. And yeah, that's what it's going to come down to. I mean, they're going to have to decide who they believe or as you say, just whether they feel sorry for her and just the fact that there really doesn't seem to be another motive here for why she would have done this. Everyone for the most part has agreed that she was an amazing mom. They tried to talk a little bit about a financial motive today, but that doesn't really seem to add

1:08:29up. So there's not another motive secretly out there. They spoke again today. They went through all the cell phones. They went through all the emails. They went through all the journals. That's when you see all these crazy theories on TikTok. It's like they would have found this stuff. The prosecution went through everything, but it doesn't seem like there was some other motive out there for her to do this. Well, there are some people out there suggesting that the father did it. And I saw you were in the scrum yesterday around Kevin Reddington as he left, where he was asked, this is her defense lawyer. You know, did Patrick do it? Not that in those exact words, but you know, asked about these theories. And he was like, oh, come on. I got enough trouble trying to defend Lindsay. And like that's, but he was rolling his eyes. Lindsay doesn't dispute that she killed the children. She doesn't dispute that. The whole thing comes down to whether she should go to a mental health facility or whether she should go to jail. I mean, that's really what we're arguing over. And the legal standard, Brian, is that the prosecution has to prove that either she didn't have

1:09:36a qualifying mental disease or defect or that any such condition did not deprive her of the substantial capacity to either appreciate that her conduct was criminal or wrong or conform her conduct to the requirements of the law. And to me, this all comes down to the prosecution trying to argue that she did not lose her ability to appreciate that her conduct was wrong. She knew her conduct was wrong. That's why she sent the husband out to the farther restaurant and waited until he left. And did all the things she did because she didn't want to witness. She didn't want to be stopped. And she wanted to make sure that those children were dead. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. When you talk to the lay people around the courthouse, because I know you're great about talking to everybody unseen like this. Do you get any feel for what the mood is? Yeah, I mean, look, it's pretty divided. It started out with mostly the pink ladies. I'm sure you saw them. All of the women in pink who have been outside supporting Lindsay Clancy.

1:10:37And there was that one day where they lined the street and actually cheered when her van arrived, which I talked to the organizer of the pink ladies yesterday. And she said that that was not the plan, by the way. She's like, I told everybody to just be silent and hold their signs. And they just impraise me and prompt you, cheer. And she was actually not happy about it. She's like this kind of like cause of controversy. And we don't think of her as a hero. And it turned a lot of people off. There are even people I knew who were supporting her that that moment kind of like turned it for them. So you've got those ladies. And then in the beginning, the white shirt ladies were not there. But they've now also come and they all kind of are on a field outside the courthouse. And they are there to support Lindsay Clancy's children. They have usually t-shirts and signs with the pictures of the three kids. And they believe she is guilty. But what's interesting is I went around and talked to all them the other day. And all of them pretty much agree that she was mentally ill. And don't think there was some other secret motive for the most part. And think that she probably did have postpartum psychosis.

1:11:38But to them, it just doesn't excuse the fact that a mother murdered her children. I think they're right. I mean, honestly, I know you don't opine on these things on the conclusion you report. But I will say, like I agree with that. I agree that I don't know about psychosis. But she definitely was severely depressed and having massive issues. I mean, generally taking zoeloft or prozac does not cause psychosis and make you kill your children. Or those drugs wouldn't be the huge juggernauts that they are. So, and then there's been testimony that postpartum psychosis does not, if you get it, it does not go eight months post-birth. And so that's being rejected. And it is important whether this was an internal thought. You know, I want my children to die and I'm going to be the one to do it versus a voice that you're hearing, which would be more consistent with psychosis with a true insane event taking over as opposed to you got really depressed. You had enough. You had no, you felt you had no other choice.

1:12:40You were going to kill yourself and you didn't think the children could or should live without you. Which is really the prosecution's theory, which doesn't, that doesn't make you insane. You're depressed. And this is sad. What happened to you? But we can't start getting, giving mothers a pass just because they're super depressed. When it comes to killing their kids. I mean, that's basically how this shakes out. Yeah. And I think it's interesting to point out too that if she's not guilty by reason of insanity, she could get out. I mean, if what I'm hearing is true, I mean, she's overcome the postpartum psychosis. She's been in treatment and that she's doing relatively okay now. If she's not guilty, yes, she'll go to the institution immediately. But I believe that in a few years, she'll come back before the judge periodically. She very well may get out and walk free. Granted, what life kind of life will she have? And she's obviously miserable because she killed her kids and she's in the wheelchair and all the rest. But I don't think it's going to be like a Susan Smith where she stays in a lockdown facility

1:13:44for decades. I really don't. Yeah. Well, that's important to think about. I mean, because we've been thinking about it that she'd be locked up, you know, perhaps even longer in a mental health facility than in a jail, but you're raising a good point. If she's already on the path back to wellness, how long would they keep her? Yeah. She gets an mental stability. They let you go and they think you're not safe. Sorry. No, no, no, no. Sorry. Yeah. There was a moment with this Gregory Sadoff, the FBI doc yesterday, where he was chilling, Brian. You must have run in the court for this. Or he, they were talking about what the children must have gone through. Would they be like little puppets she could easily manipulate? Or would they have fought? That was just so dark, but it's relevant because this jury, they're humans like you and I and they will absolutely have reactions to anytime spent over that target of what the kids actually went through in the moment.

1:14:48Here is part of that and sought zero five. Doctor, is there any significance to the fact that this voice is telling her to kill the children, but not telling her how to kill the children? Yes. And what is that? Yeah. Just like adults, children have a will to survive. Strong, strong will to survive. I think it's just part of being human. And so, I know that that Dr. Ressnick described Ms. Clancy as acting as if she were a puppet. But the children are not puppets. They, the jury has seen the autopsy photos, Brian.

1:15:50I mean, the jury has gone through a lot in this trial and I'm sure they are at their emotional withs end. They've not been sequestered, however, right? They've been going back home at night. Yeah, they haven't been sequestered. And back to what he was saying there, I mean, we've heard that it may have taken three minutes for each child to die. And she had to go one by one and remember, Kora is five years old. Yeah, and there's even been talk of the little boy found in the office like may have tried to run away. So it's hard to look past that and just for anybody even me sitting in there, I mean, okay, psychosis or whatever this was, but that doesn't snap you out of it. I mean, after the first one, you don't know as a mother, you don't snap out of it. It is hard to wrap your brain around that. And back to your question about this sequestration, they're not going to be sequestered. And we actually asked Kevin Reddington when he came at a court yesterday, would you want the jury to be sequestered during just deliberations? And he kind

1:16:53of just like, like laughed and said, no, no, we don't do that here. He's, he's such an interesting guy. Like he's obviously very skilled, but he's, he just kind of keeps things simple. I've noticed like to him that I think the idea of sequestration is just too much. And he also feels like the jury's been through so much. The best lawyers do the best best lawyers. We had, I tried this case one time for a very large fortune 100 corporation in federal court in Iowa. And we were brought into the case. It was really two other parties that were suing each other. And the defendant brought us into the case, saying, if I get on the hook for this, I want this client to also be on the hook. So the plaintiffs lawyer got up there and made this big long opening like this, this defendant did wrong. And this is how much money I should get. The defense lawyer got up there and said, it's not true. We did nothing wrong. The plaintiff has it all incorrect. And our lead lawyer got up and said, this one is suing this one. This one is suing. We just want to go home. We just want to go home. And sure

1:17:54enough, the jury let us out of the case. Like sometimes just the simplest messaging of like, what am I doing here? Like it can resonate. And that's why it's like to me, the experts probably do to cancel each other out. The, the women on the jury in particular, most of them will probably have had a baby or know somebody who had a baby, maybe have a daughter who had a baby and will have their own strong thoughts about maternal instincts for good and for bad for, for this defendant. And I just think it's probably going to come down to what you said. Like we're not letting this woman possibly go free. She killed her three kids or we're going to send a message to the medical establishment that women's postpartum depression matters. And we hold you responsible, not, not Lindsey Clancy. I don't know which way they're going to go. Your thoughts. Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, it's, it's, it's like, it feels like less of a crime story. And in some ways, like more of a moral dilemma. And I don't, I think, I think it's going to be a long

1:18:56deliberation. And just back to Kevin Reddington and you kind of saying, how good lawyers keep it simple. Even yesterday, we also asked him when he came out, how long do you think closings will be? You think a couple hours and he like laughed and said, no, ways. Like I'm just going to go 30 minutes. So he definitely has this attitude that he's going to keep it simple. And I think he's like respectful of what the jury has already been through the time that, you know, that they've already given. But yeah, we'll see. I mean, closings are going to be tomorrow. So they'll do jury instructions in the morning and then closings after that. And then we'll just have to see what happens. Maybe we'll get a verdict on Friday. Maybe it may take quite some time. Could be, could be hung potentially out at but it could be since it's not guilt or innocence. Exactly. So I feel like they'll probably get it to a verdict. But famous last words, Brian, and to always a pleasure. My friend, great to see you. Thanks for your great coverage. And we'll check out your, your special on the second. Thanks, man. I get appreciate you. Okay, we'll be right back. Don't go away. Got my thoughts to share with you on this Melissa Gilbert situation. Feelings, luggage, bloated, not quite like yourself. Life constantly bombard us

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1:21:19$8 million in legal fees for that claim that she got dismissed of his defamation. He tried to counter Sue against her for defaming him. It got thrown out in under California law. She's entitled to fees as a result of that sequence of events. The judge has just ruled on what she will get. It's $400,000. She wanted $8 million so she could run around telling everyone, I got him in the end. He's so dumb. He agreed to my settlement. I didn't, he was telling everybody he didn't have to pay, but I got him in the end for $8 million. I might be, no, not even half a million, $400,000. I'll tell you something. If she had gone to Justin Belldoni before this whole thing got started and said, you know, I had some problems with the way things went down on the said. I didn't appreciate this. That and the other thing. If you pay me $400,000, I'll go away. You probably would have done it. Harpy. He and his production company just to avoid this whole nightmare. It would have been a great deal for Blake who would have still had a career

1:22:23and people who liked her unlike now or she doesn't have either. The judge finding that the hourly rate charged by the attorneys for lively and Belldoni, let's say, yeah, was not unreasonable as the case presented substantial financial and reputational risks to both sides, but Judge Lyman also reject it. Her demand to be reimbursed for the cost to her PR team, saying media relations were not integral to defending the defamation claim brought against Blake lively. He also ruled the clerk of court is respectfully directed to enter judgment for lively in the amount of $363,000 in change in attorney's fees and 44 grand in change in costs. He said, while the attorney's fees like the rate per hour was not unreasonable, the number of hours that lively had billed for her lawyers was unreasonable. He criticized the discrepancies in the expenses that she was trying to claim.

1:23:27So Brian Friedmanstein came forward and said, there's some funny business afoot on this math judge and he seemed to agree. This is great. I mean, because she was getting ready to do her little PR tour. We spoke with a woman who is behind the creation of that law that said, if you're a sexual harassment or abuse victim and you file a lawsuit against your alleged harasser and he countersues you for defamation and then you managed to get the defamation claim claim thrown out, you can get your fees. She's behind that law. And she came on this program and made a lot of news saying we never had the likes of Blake lively in mind when we passed this law, it was meant to start to stop a disempowered female with no clout connections, financial resources or power from getting harassed by a much more powerful industry boss who could ruin her career. The roles were reversed. Blake lively was the bully she and her husband with her dragons, Taylor Swift and Ryan Reynolds. They had all the power. Justin Belldoni had none. Very few people

1:24:30even knew who he was prior to the commencement of this whole case. So everything. And so she wanted to then bring that law into existence in all 50 states and she wanted to spearhead it. And this woman who actually did get it passed in California in a couple of other key states told us that she said to Blake's team, please no, please have Blake lively stay out of this. I don't want her help. And I don't think it will be helpful to have her pick this up. But she she wanted her callisi moment. She never got it. Guess what? She didn't get it today either. $400,000 will probably be handled by insurance. And he won't pay a penny. But even if he had to, that's something I believe he could handle. Unbelievable. What a great, great result for Justin Belldoni. Congratulations to him because he fought hard and he won. He won. Good for him. Thank God, frankly, because I think she made up the whole thing. She was absolutely beastly to him and should be held to account. She should not be cast. We should not be supporting her at the box office.

1:25:31She'll be fine. She's got Ryan Reynolds. I probably has a billion dollars in the bank. So they'll be fine. Okay. Melissa Gilbert speaking of Hollywood actresses. I've had it with this gal. I mean, she, she was, she was a good Laura Ingalls in Little House in the prairie. And that is how I will try to remember Melissa Gilbert, not the outrageous adult she's turned into. Now her husband, Timothy Bussfield, is currently on trial for allegedly sexually abusing two young boys starting at the age of seven for those children while they are on his set of a television show that he used to executive produce and direct. We have talked about this case at length. I will be the first to tell you, just as soon as it came out, we reported it at that moment. The parents of the two boys are grifters. In my opinion, they are, the dad has served time. The mother has passed bad checks. The crimes that they've been accused, he was disbarred. The dad was as well, the crimes and misdeeds they've been accused of go right to whether they are truthful people. And court after court has

1:26:35said they're not very relevant. I'm going to let this case play out in New Mexico and we'll report how it turns out when it's over. I don't want to disparage the young boys just because you're born to grifters. Doesn't mean you make up claims like this. We must keep that in mind, but it certainly requires a massive asterisk when reporting these allegations. Okay, but that's not what this is about. This is about the litany of young women who came forward against Timothy Bussfield after this case was brought in the same way the Me Too movement created streams of women who would come forward saying Me Too Me Too Me Too. It did that in this case too, even though the original complainants victims alleged are two little boys, now they're older. And it was shocking the things that were alleged against Timothy Bussfield. And I'm going to go through it. But Melissa Gilbert has the nerve to come out in the wake of the death of Hayden Pena Tierra saying we women of the industry must

1:27:39bond together to stop the abuse of young child actors and women in our industry. And she talks about not just Hayden, but two other actresses who have died over the past year. Not like one from AIDS, one from something else, like not from substance abuse or what, I don't know exactly why she's lumping in these other two. But she's saying, it's high time for our industry to take care of women and prevent them from having to suffer being used, abused, and exploited. Okay. How is it that that's happened from the time she was on Little House in the Prairie to Now? I've got a clue for you, Melissa. It appears to be thanks to people like your husband who you are defending. She's defending. She's standing by him even on the host of women who have come forward. She was asked by George Stephanopoulos and Good Morning America whether she was aware

1:28:43of the litany of women who have come forward against him. Okay. It's not just one or two. By my count, it is, let's see, one, two, three, four, five, six, at least seven who have come forward, saying when they were young, in some instances, 16, 17, he, her husband, who she standing by, shoved his hands down their pants, physically or sexually assaulted them in his trailer, at his theater, on set, I mean, this woman, the gall, like however do we get to this point, where women are being serially abused, why don't you ask Timothy, Melissa, he can really help us out. Oh wait, you don't give a shit about anything involving him. It's just something that you don't have any connection to that you would like to condemn. That's not how it works. You're going to have to sit this one out, Mel. Listen to what she told Stephanopoulos after the litany of women came forward.

1:29:45This was, I don't have the date in front of me. Let's go. Yeah, I do. April 6th. Watch. The criminal complaint also includes references to two women who accused Timothy of sexual assault back in 1994 in 2012. He settled one of the cases. Were you aware of these cases before? No, he, criminal complaint. I got this one. I need to make something really abundantly clear. These allegations have been out in the ether for a very long time. That means you knew about them. When Tim and I got together, the internet existed. I didn't go into my relationship with him blind. I am neither naive nor am I complicit. I talked to him about it. I asked him questions. I heard his side of the story, which no one has ever heard, which is the truth. When the time is right, and that is not now, Tim will tell the truth of all of these past allegations when he needs to. Okay. Let's just go through them. All right. A little reminder, on exactly what we're talking about. All right. 1991. Then 26-year-old Claudia Christian, this is reported by the mirror, who is now 60, but at the time was, I don't know,

1:30:511991. She was mid-twenties, I think. Claimed, Busfield attacked her while they were rehearsing a scene in his trailer for the 1991 TV movie, Strays. They found her police interview, the mirror did. She said, Busfield seized her, tossed her against a wall, and began kissing her. Quote, he had an erection, and he shoved his tongue in my mouth. And I pushed him off, and I ran out of the trailer. She told the US, she told the mirror, they reached out to her, that she felt angry with herself when she heard news of Busfield's search warrant for not coming forward sooner. However, she came to the conclusion little would have been done if she had spoken up, probably because of people like Melissa Gilbert, who decided to effectively call you a liar and dismiss your account. The believe all women crowd is falling down on the job. That's one. Okay. She was 26, Claudia Christian, when it happened allegedly. 1994, I should say up front, he denies all of these. 1994, an unnamed 17 year old. This is a person who was an extra on the set of little big league in

1:31:54which he starred. She sued in Los Angeles Superior Court, claiming Busfield had assaulted her, served her alcohol, groped her, attempted sex with her in his trailer. He denied it, and then counter sued for extortion. They settled the case privately. He then tried to bring a defamation bid against her lawyers. That got thrown out, leaving him to foot nearly $150,000 in costs. No charges were filed. Okay. So there we have so far, we have a 26 year old who claims that he assaulted her and now a 17 year old on the set of little big league who said he assaulted her. In 1994, Eliza Roberts, who is the sister-in-law to Julia Roberts, she's married to her brother, her brother, Eric Roberts. She claimed that Busfield allegedly sexually harassed and humiliated her. She submitted this testimony in support of a 17 year old girl from Minnesota.

1:32:55This is the one I just reported on, who accused him of sexually harassing her on the set of little big leagues. So she heard this and she said, I got to come forward and tell the truth about him because yes, I too can attest that he's a sexual pervert and I'm not going to let the 17 year old twist in the wind. In her deposition obtained by the Daily Mail, Roberts testified that Busfield, 68, was a creep who quote, compulsively chased after women. Again, she's the wife of Julia's brother, Eric, Julia Roberts. She offered her sworn statement along with five other unidentified women in support of the 17 year old's lawsuit. So I don't even know whether those five overlap with seven or so. I've just listed or I told you I have in front of me. God only knows how many there are, but there were at least five who came forward when the 17 year old's sued to say me too, Timothy. In that case, I've settled out, of course, I told you. She claimed Eliza did. Busfield tried to cajole her into having sex with him, pompously insisting that he would quote, be so great and

1:33:56bed for her while complaining that his then wife, this is before Melissa, was a lousy fuck. Excuse me. Three of the other women who submitted statements also obtained by the mail were involved in the production of Little Big League 2. Two of them testified that Busfield hit on them in bars in a persistent unsettling and aggressively sexual manner. So that is one, two, three, at least on the set of Little Big League, who claimed he was harassing them, sexually harassing them, at least one of whom was a teenager. And then others coming forward to say me too, including Eliza Roberts. And that's to say nothing of the 26 year old who kicked this whole thing off, saying in his trailer on the TV movie Strays while they were rehearsing a scene, which leads me to the next allegation from 1999. There was a 16 year old court documents, a ledge he sexually abused a 16 year old girl while she was auditioning. Here we go again on the sets of his movies, his TV movies, his big screen

1:35:00movies in his trailer in the midst of a different kind of movie. And now alleging here, on in his theater, it was called the B Street theater while she was auditioning a 16 year old. He it was his theater. He was 43. She was 16. She reported he kissed her, put his hands down her pants and touched her privates. The defendant begged the family, meaning busfield, not to report it to law enforcement if he received therapy. The father was a therapist himself of the 16 year old and thought, okay, that's a reasonable thing to do. I will. I'll have mercy on him. That father gave an interview, which we have here on camera in part. I think it's inside edition, Deb, right? Take a listen to the father. This is earlier this year. He's a serial pedophile predator. My daughter was accepted into the B Street Theater internship program. And that was a big deal in those days. You got to perform in front of

1:36:02the, you know, an Emmy award-winning actor, Tim Busfield. He says about four months into her internship. Busfield asked his daughter to clean his office. She climbed a little ladder and Tim was below her looking up. She told me she was pulled down. He spun her around. It was reported that he kissed her. It wasn't a kiss. It was a violation. He says busfield aggressively touched his daughter all over. The dad tells me that his daughter pushed busfield away and screamed and that busfield told her to be quiet or people would hear her. When you confronted Timothy Busfield, what happened? Tim began to cry. He started talking to me about how he was remorseful. Tim begged me not to go to the police. He says busfield promised to seek therapy. The dad, who's a therapist himself, says he agreed. A decision he now regrets. You didn't go to the police. No, I did not. This is why I feel so guilty. This man needs to go down. He is a bad, a bad apple.

1:37:06Okay, back to Melissa Gilbert. I don't know how abuse continues in Hollywood. How? How does this keep happening? Melissa, why don't you chat about it over dinner tonight? You don't have to get your union. She's like, let's get the union involved. Let's create a support group with all former child actors like Drew Barrymore and Sarah Jessica Parker. Just sit down at dinner. You can do it over cocktails tonight. Start at home. It's not going to be hard. Trust me. You can get a whole of reasons why this keeps happening from the man across the plate from you. Let's keep going. An unnamed 28 year old, via police affidavit, reported that he allegedly battered her in an LA movie theater, slipping his hands under her clothes, touching her genitals for four minutes. Prosecutors chose not to bring criminal charges in this case. He called it consensual. There was no arrest or in no lawsuit, but she was upset enough she went to the cops. Data known via KOAT, the ABC local in Albuquerque. A woman said she encountered busfield while getting books for her kids.

1:38:10She claimed he followed her to her car and began graphically talking to her. It was very bizarre. It was very disturbing, extremely aggressive, totally uninvited on my part. I didn't understand why he just suddenly went there and I tried to say, okay, I'll talk to you later. I have to go. It was relentless. I rolled up my window. She claims busfield then followed her to another business trying to finish the conversation. I've got one more and I've got to talk about what Melissa Gilbert is saying about Hayden Pennetier now. So I'm going to do what I can in the next minute and then we'll steal a couple minutes of the next hour and continue this. 2017, his former assistant comes forward 22 years old. Now he's in his 60s and he's apparently allegedly still doing this. She said or he was at least in his late 50s, he kind of touched me on my thigh in the car. I was 22. He was my boss. I felt very uncomfortable. The comments he made to her me were pretty uncomfortable. I remember feeling very early on. I didn't necessarily feel safe alone with him. He would push my shoulders,

1:39:12give me kind of unwanted touch. She said during a trip to Traverse City for a film festival, he hit on her. This is his assistant and wanted her to stay late and drink with him. She declined his advances. However, does this keep happening, Melissa? How these poor aspiring and actual actresses in Hollywood who get used and abused by the men in your industry and then disposed of as though there nothing. One final word on it when we come right back. You might already own a fire arm, but what if you could start with less lethal methods to avoid the financial and mental repercussions of pulling the trigger? This is where Berna comes in. That's BYRNA. Berna's less lethal launchers are equipped with tear gas and also kinetic ammunition and designed to incapacitate an attacker for up to 40 minutes. Berna is excited to introduce the all-new compact launcher. It's very cool. It's sleek. It's slim and it hits like a sledgehammer. The same size

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1:41:29Okay, so enter Melissa Gilbert, which she shouldn't have entered at all. She should have just kept her mouth shut and stayed over there dealing with their considerable problems that they already have in his existing criminal case. But no, she's got away and she's, she's got to offer her two cents because it's very important to Melissa Gilbert to be seen as a champion of women, even though she's not. Here's what she writes. I mean, she's not going to believe this on her sub-stack. Enough is enough. How is it possible that no one in the mainstream media has picked up on this? Within one year, Michelle Trachtenberg, Davai Chase and Hayden Penaetier have died. Three former female actors, female child actors of the same generation are gone, tragically, heartbreakingly, agonizingly too soon. Okay, she adds, I call them female actors because the term actress, to me, is as misogynistic as calling a female doctor, a doctorous. You're an idiot. They are gone. And the question I have

1:42:33been turning over and over in my head is, why? Why are these sweet, wildly talented, vibrant, vital young women gone? And why does this all feel so personal to me? Okay, now, first of all, why are they gone? They're gone because Michelle Trachtenberg died at the age of 39 in February of 25 from complications from diabetes. That's why she's gone. It's very sad, but I don't think there's anything Holly would can do about it. Then there's Davai Chase, who died on June 16th at the age of 36. She was, she voiced Lilo and Lilo and Stitch. She died of AIDS, which is awful and should be preventable, but I have no idea how we're pinning that on Holly would either. There's nothing in her background about her being sexually abused in any way. So I'm, again, I'm open-minded, but you're not getting me there. Hayden Penigier, yes, absolutely put into acting at two young

1:43:35and age by Hollywood moguls. No, her mother, by her mother, Melissa. It's not great, Holly would suck. It's disgusting toxic industry, much like news, but it's her parents who put her into it. The reason I wasn't on Little House in the prairie is because my mom loved me and kept me at home and sent me to school like a normal child. The reason Hayden wound up as she did is because her mother made a very different choice and they wound up loathing each other per Hayden's book. So here she goes on. Okay, why? Why are these sweet young women gone and why does it all feel so personal to me? It feels personal because I was them, she writes. We are all members of the same tribe, female former child performers and when one of us dies, it runs through all of us like an electrical current. It ran through you like an electrical current when a former child actress died of diabetes.

1:44:37Like what? Did they serve her too many sugary drinks on the set? Where are you going with this? It's tragic that a young person, a woman in her 30s, ever dies. That's, that's, it has nothing to do with Holly would, unless you know something you're not revealing in your substack and I'm open-minded to hearing that. Okay, then this, here we go. She posits the reason. Okay, she says, you listen to this. We all know the stories of how the entertainment industry uses, abuses, exploits and then throws away its youngest. But for some reason, this trend is getting worse. Yes, whatever could the reason be? Could it be possibly like one of the things serial perverts in Hollywood who actually use and abuse them on the set in their trailer on the audition stage and then call them liars publicly when they're, they actually in some of these cases, you know, have gone to the police, have eyewitnesses, have five other women who want to come forward to say the same thing happen to me? Could that be it? No. What does Melissa think? My thinking is that it's

1:45:42tied to the invention of mobile phones. It's the mobile phone that's to blame. I don't, I don't think that causes AIDS or diabetes. I, you know, I, I'm not a techie. I don't read wired. I find them very woken and annoying. But maybe again, maybe she's, she knows something I don't know about the mobile phone causing the use of abuse and exploitation in Hollywood. She's, goes on about how we, we used to have privacy, but now we go to restaurants, clubs and popurazzi's everywhere. Everyone is a popurato. There's no privacy. The media uses it for clickbait and they profit the voracious tabloid happy public eats it up with a spoon so they can feel better about their own eyes. Now it's your fault. You're an, an greedy, needy public looking at pictures you shouldn't. You put down that national inquire, put down that star magazine shame on you. You're to blame that girl got diabetes and you, you are the problem. I think this is crazy stuff. She's mad because

1:46:47her husband's on trial for being an alleged pedophile. That's what she's mad about. I get it. That's probably extremely upsetting. The problem is not the cell phones. It's not. They're not good. Hey, the cell phones been a terrible influence on mental health for everyone. I can see that point. But when we're trying to get granular and diagnose what happened to the young Hollywood actresses, I'm going to guess that's about number 17 on the list. If it's there at all. She says the real haunting question, their question haunting me is how do we fix our end? How do we fix or end this before someone else dies? Then she asks, where is our union in all of this? What is the sag union going to do about diabetes? And frankly, what could it have done about Hayden Pennetier whose problems were drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic violence, a mother who didn't love her. But other than a couple of incidents offset that she alleged, like that's

1:47:55unknown delist actress allegedly saying, get in a bed with that guy on some ship. But that's not like, we're not talking about the Hollywood director and the casting couch and Harvey here. All of which is a huge problem, I'm conceded. I'm not trying to say other words, but what, like in the cases that she's raising that have really gotten her so outraged, this stuff actually wasn't to blame. So like, I'm really not following her except I am because I know this is all just a cover for her to try to look like she's an Avenger of victims. When in fact, she's married to somebody who appears to be a serial victimizer. Again, he's denied the claims. Not talking about the trial right now, even that criminal trial again, talking about these women, the litany of women who she completely dismisses with to George Stephanopoulos completely. Then she goes on to say the following. She wants to get everybody together. Drew Barrymore, Ellen Dakota fanning, Jodie Foster, Brooke Shields, Sarah Jessica Parker, Reese Witherspoon. I don't know, a bunch of others I've never heard of. And she wants, no one's going to do this for us. Maybe one solution is for us. And I love how she wants to include herself, like in the company

1:48:57of Drew Barrymore, Sarah Jessica Parker, Jodie Foster. She can't lick their boots. Those other women have gone on to have thriving, great adult careers as well. You're not on that list, sweetheart. They're not going to take your call. I have news for you. Then she says we should all get together. And we should share ideas and ways we might be able to lobby to support these young women. Okay, I'm going to help you. If they actually do talk to you, I got a suggestion for the kickoff meeting. How about when they come forward and say that they have been physically abused on an audition in somebody's trailer or on a stage, we listen to them and at least engage in a good faith attempt to believe them. Okay, that's your side's rules. Believe all women. I don't say that. I say, yes, good faith attempt to listen and probe. That's what they're entitled to and I would give you. You're saying none of them is true because my husband said they're not true.

1:49:58Okay, he lost his defamation case against the lawyers who brought that one girl's claim. He had to pay their attorney's fees because his claim was deemed so frivolous. Your own assistant who knows you too well alleges he's continuing the pattern up until recent years. This is like in Tim's late 50s. He was allegedly doing that to the assistant. And I'm think like I haven't seen Eliza Roberts, sister-in-law of Julia running all over America just randomly accusing men. But she did seem pretty animated about your husband as she and five witnesses came forward to support the 17 year old claiming she'd been abused on the set of Little Big League and multiple others did too. So I just, I'm thinking this would be square one for stopping the abuse and the patterns Melissa as you're going to share ideas and ways we might be able to support these young women. Maybe we sit down, she goes on with the heads of the studios and the networks and have real conversations about mitigating exploitation. However, could we again, again, this is so,

1:51:06all right. So why do I even care about what Melissa Gilbert is saying? Because you have to see the glowing coverage that this generated for her. Like people completely lazy ass reporters not doing their homework. USA Today, Melissa Gilbert calls for real change after Hayden Pennity or death. People magazine, Melissa Gilbert advocates for better protection of child stars in the wake of Hayden Pennity or his death deadline. Melissa Gilbert calls on unions to protect child actors after Hayden Pennity or his death. Something's got to be done. Hollywood reporter, same TMZ. They didn't even mention the allegations against busfield. At least those other publications, at least mention that he's on trial right now for alleged child molestation. The TMZ didn't even mention that. It seems like you should, you should mention the only one who got it right, the only one was the daily mail. This is their headline. Little House on the Prairie's Melissa Gilbert calls on Hollywood to protect child stars after Hayden Pennity or his death, while her own husband is accused of onset molestation. They put it right in the headline and

1:52:08that is the correct thing to do. So I do think there's a massive problem in Hollywood with the exploitation of children with the serial sexual abuse of young women and more mature women as well. In many cases, I don't think Melissa Gilbert is the answer to that problem. I think her hands are too unclean. She's been too knee jerk defensive of what I think is her pervert husband. And I think most of us just want to see Melissa Gilbert skulk away and stop pretending that she hasn't been hashtag part of the problem because she has. We saw it in that Stephanopolis exchange. That will conclude my thoughts on half pint. That's how I'll remember her. I enjoyed those years and we'll see you again tomorrow when we are joined by the one the only Dr. Leonard sacks. He's back on with his new book Love This Guy. This is the child expert and parenting expert and every time we have him on my email explodes with gratitude from moms and

1:53:11dads who just find his wisdom plentiful and spot on. Okay, look forward to that and I will see and talk to you all tomorrow. Thanks for listening to The Megan Kelly Show, No BS, No Agenda, and No Fear. Today's episode was brought to you by Super Sure.