Ep 1301 | Chuck Norris & Phil Robertson Proved True Strength Goes Beyond the Legend

0:00Spring starts at the Home Depot, and we are bringing the heat to your backyard this season. Fire up the flavor with our wide variety of grills for under $300, like the next grill for burner gas grill that's perfect for hosting your spring cookout. Then set the scene and turn your outdoor space into the go-to spot the patio sets for every budget. Bring it this season with grills that deliver flavor and patios that set the vibe from the Home Depot. Start your spring with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot, including the pricey Home Depot dot com slash price match for details. I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. I woke up days to the sad news that one of our icons, our childhood heroes, one of your icons. You know he never was your? I didn't want my turn as a baby. But now, you know, I found it. Well the movies were a little cheesy, but he was just a bad man. Of course we talked about Chuck Norris, passed away in Hawaii,

1:02which I guess made sense. He was impaired on Earth. Yeah, I don't take that the wrong way. It wasn't that I disapproved. I just wasn't. You weren't into him as I was. No, and then later I never figured out the fascination with all the little scenes. So many. I looked, I was looking up and reading them this morning's that they were hilarious. All these, you know, Chuck Norris. They're the best. Yeah, they're the best. I just did one because I was near his where he's from in Texas, where he has a ranch. And so I did a the boogeyman Texas closet every night for Chuck Norris. So it's one of my favorite. What was the one you read? You were reading them when I was over. I said, what I was saying, God created the Earth. And on the seventh they rested and then Chuck Norris took over. But it does show you. Just now we're talking about this morning that he's kind of the joke is his invincibility.

2:04Because and I've told the story before on the podcast, I got to meet him 11 years ago. And the only reason I know exactly when it was is it was his 75th birthday. And we happened to be at the same event and a mutual friend invited me to his little surprise parties. It was great because there was just a handful of people there. So I really got to visit with him. And Jay, I don't know if I told you this, but he at the time he had twin 15 year old sons. So I guess now they'd be 26. And so they were young because he had married a little bit later his wife he had now. But he said they love the show and and you in particular were their favorite. So I'm warming up. Yeah. So the Chuck Norris twins, whoever they are said they love them some Jay's. But he was fantastic. But you know, he was 75. And he'd look like he was 45. Yeah. I mean, he just shows you being in shape. I mean, I have said this line many times on this podcast because Phil always used to say it.

3:08People always laugh. I say it in every speech. And my dad would use this illustration. It's worth repeating that when people do not want to think seriously about their impending death, they will rationalize in their mind by doing something good, which is eating right and working out. Which are great things. Nothing wrong with that. Let that be a delusion in that you're not going to die. And my dad would say, oh, you tell me I eat right and I work out. And he would say, you will die healthy. But it may be a bus. It may be a staircase. But it will be something. Something's happening. Even the seemingly invincible Chuck Norris. But he was one of those that your childhood is two of them. He was one. And then we got to meet Hax, Jim Duggan, because he was on the show.

4:08Oh, yeah, that was fun. Yeah. Well, our lovely cousin, I don't even have to say her name. But she has a nickname that we affectionately call her Lulu. So you can't look her up. Yeah. But the original Lulu, because my wife became a Lulu. Oh, she's a little, does a grandma name. But she sent me a funny text yesterday. And she's like, you're not going to believe this. I just bought a bottle of eternal water. She didn't have to clarify. I knew what that meant. I was like, people are still up to this idea of selling the idea of eternity and supernatural things through their products. When, look, it may be the greatest water ever, I've never tried it. But it's not going to keep you from dying. Nope. And you know what else? It's not going to be better than Chuck Norris' water. C-Force. So we had a Chuck Norris. Yeah. It says on the bottle, it's like a roundhouse kick to the face.

5:11Yeah. So. Rest in peace, Chuck. That's why the outlawed Josie Wales, maybe it's filled with so many lines of even at the end when it gets to the end, my apologies for bringing this movie up again. But they, whoever wrote that movie, ended the movie with the words of death and the words of life, which are a direct quote from the book of Genesis. Blessings and curses, words of life, words of death, it shall be life. But the young buck who followed Josie around and he took him in, you remember when he got shot and he looked up and he was like, it was incredible acting. He's like, I ain't going to lie to you. I'm scared to die, Josie. But that was just brutal honesty that I find lacking in movies today that deep down, you know, you're not scared to die till you get shot and they're all of a sudden you're

6:13looking around saying, I'm scared to die, Josie. So. So a lot of people, yeah, especially just think if you're not, you're not spiritually prepared. That would be really scary because you're really putting, you're really putting that out on the line if you're not ready. I mean, yeah, we're ready, but, you know, none of us really look forward to it, but, you know, when we started, when we started doing all this stuff with Phil, you know, with the podcast and we had in the woods with Phil before that, which was behind the paywall. So a lot of, a lot of you did get to see it, which by the way, if you do want to hear some of those or watch some of those old episodes, we're bringing them back out in the form of a podcast called Add Home with Phil. You can look it up on YouTube or on the, wherever you'd listen to podcasts, but great idea, Zach. Great idea. I was the first time I'm hearing, hearing about great idea. There's also a new book coming out at some point. It's a lot of, it's a compilation of his stuff in the new devotional, but it's a new

7:17book. I know your dad's been working on it. I don't know any details about it, but just be looking for it when they tell. Yeah, once that, I don't need it, but once that comes out, we'll get everybody together on that too. But what we, we had this one scene, when I had this idea, like when we launched that, that was a, I said, Phil, let's go out, wait until it turns dark and then you just built a fire and then I'm going to, we'll film you building this bonfire and the whole thing was about like, like starting a fire for the kingdom and like, we're, we're, I mean, this thing is catching, you're catching flame here and not a whole thing I wrote out for him. It was, he was fired up about it. So he goes out there and Jill was with me. I think there was probably 68, 69 and so he got this fire going right out there on your land, Jace and, and it's just a bonfire. I mean, and so he gets so hot because it was in the middle of the summer. He takes his shirt off and, and Jill was like stunned because he was ripped. I mean, Phil was ripped up at 68 years old and he was just chiseled and the Uncle Tommy

8:21was the same way and he, he never worked out. He worked outside. Yeah. That's a, Jill was like, good, nice, Phil, you're like, like a brick house, like what happened to you? Well, that's, I look, I use that to get back to, you know, Chuck Norris and look, I'm, I'm sorry he died, but it's, this is the hand we're dealt, but I, when the Chuck Norris craves with all the sayings, uh, was going on, I guess it still is. I verbally said, well, you should meet my dad because I'm like, he invented this kind of mindset as far as getting out of the way and watch this. I mean, you tell him about one tough, gritty human being, that was my dad. And so everybody who knew him well, I mean, it's shocking how strong the man was. Well, it hit, it hit me this year or, you know, last year, actually, I turned 60, but

9:24when I, I got to think and mom and dad or mine at Lisa's age, when this whole kind of the phenomenon era started, it was the Benelli show, it was on the outdoor channel that then led to the big, to the duck show and all that, but they were our age. They were around early 60s. They were running all of the country, just like we're doing flights here and there, speaking all over the place, writing books, doing commercials in between. No days off, just getting after it. And it hit me. I was like, that's what we're doing, the exact same thing, but you can do that until one day you look up and you can't. Well, right. And then all of a sudden, it was just, it was over and it just seemed like it went by so fast that last decade. And so it made me realize that the clock is ticking, so, but it doesn't want to slow me down. I want to do just the opposite. I'm speeding up. So the first time that I got a term life insurance policy was right before my first

10:25child was born. Owl, I know you've talked about someone gifted you your first one. That was a guy. It was a guy we love me to call a big boy and he was an insurance salesman and he gifted that to me, going into the seminary to become a preacher, so I've always appreciated that. Well, I've had term life insurance for over 20 years now and now I've got five kids. So of course, we've added a few more policies along the way, but you know, I think it's the responsible thing to do to make sure that your family is taking care of in the event that something could happen to you, which is why I want to tell you about fabric, fabric by Gerber Life. It's a term life insurance policy you can get done today. So maybe for busy parents, just like you all online, all on your schedule right from your couch, you could be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. fabric has flexible high quality policies that fit your family and your budget, like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. And it's really a no brainer because there's no risk. There's a 30 day money back guarantee you can cancel at any time. So join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family, apply today and just minutes at meetfabric.com slash on the shame that's meetfabric.com slash

11:29on the shame, M-E-E-T fabric.com slash on the shame. He's issued by a Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices are subject to underwriting and health questions. Well, I was more referring to, if you think I'm embellishing about my dad because everybody says that, oh yeah, my dad said he walked, you know, barefoot, uphill, low boys and stuff. Just keep in mind that my dad did not use any kind of deadening or what does that stuff go on, you know, numbing, agent, gas, none of that, and he, and I'll give you three examples just off the top of my head from a root canal, no deadening, wide awake, nothing is numbed, had a rod removed from his eyeball, no deadening, no put you under, no none of that.

12:29Then the first man, maybe on the planet, to ever have whatever that procedure is where they go up in there to remove kidney stones or break them up into the south of the border, what makes a male a male, the most profound member. He did that to the doctor's surprise without any, because they put people under to do that. My dad was watching the video. So just saying, I'm not trying to embellish that the man was just on another level, he had a very high pain tonics, I'll tell you two more, that I personally witnessed one was they cut a cyst out of his back, no, no topical, normally, you know, he felt a little topical in there at the very least, because he were literally cutting and pulling that thing out. He did that, and I was there for that one, and then I saw Granny one day pull a thorn,

13:30I'd say it was probably two inches long, two to three inches long, it was this long, that had gone in his eye right in the corner, and she could see me now, I know she can see the spec, she started pulling that thing out, and I was just standing there, I guess I was a teenager, and it was right there in that front bathroom in that greenhouse, where I was, and she pulls that thing out, and my eyes got so big, because it was so, it just kept coming. You know, dad is like, man, that feels better, the only time, that's what he said, man, the only time I can remember that I saw him a little fearful, I can only remember one time. Me and him were going to run the nets, the commercial fishing nets, at night, because that was something we did every once in a while, and when we got in the boat, I thought I, we had a light, but I saw something move, and he went, Congo in the boat, and he jumped

14:34out of the boat, which I jumped out too, but then he, he looked back in it, and he said, he jumped out of the boat, so then we jumped back in, all of a sudden, you went to safety back to safe, and I just found it shocking, that he jumped out of the boat, I just, it is pretty, it is pretty amazing that he was never snake bitten, as much time as he spent around poisonous snakes, because that, that old beaver, damn, breaking up stuff, there was a snake story, and the most famous blind we have is called the Lake Blind, and it became a city, it was a three-sided blind, that would actually hold at one time, now we only have one side left, but it, a storm came through, and disassembled the three sides, so we turned it into three blinds, but back in the day, this is the one where we had bunk beds, and a kitchen, and it's original form, a stove, a full stove, it was a house, and

15:39you could live there, and my dad would always say, hey, war breaks out, whatever, we're moving to that lake, that's where we're moving, but during the, this time of the year, the problem is it's everybody else's house for the other nine months of the year, this time of the year, which now are spring, well all these critters out in the wild, they're not going to turn it down, because the humans leave, and you have a fortress out in the middle of one of the most rugged swamps in the world, there's a debugging, de-snaking, cleaning up process that happens before the next duck season, every year we would go do it, and I hated it, they actually filmed it, other shows would come down to almost doing it, alligator was in the blind one time, really the exterminator tried it, abort, abort, that's what they said on the mission, that is true, we were the one set that they tried to film a show, and

16:41they said nope, too many shows, the wall, one of the guys, the brother was allergic to wild things, I had to get you being exterminated, you remember that, that's crazy, I guess we can talk about that now, but, so, well I was one tell this one story though, one year we were doing it, we had to hold crew, we completely, I mean we killed snakes, we got rid of the wasps, we cleaned it up, and all that was filled with moments of terror for everybody, you know, and my dad was sitting on the corner of the blind, in his spot, and he turned to everybody, we were all just like taking a deep breath, it was job well done, mission accomplished, feels well, we got it all done, boys, good job, and when I looked up and I saw a clump in a button weller that was used as bruh, it was a growing button weller, I would say a foot from his right ear, and there was a clump, and I looked at it, and it was a cotton

17:44mouth, called up one foot from his ear, and I said, feel, don't take this the wrong way, but there's a bull Congo right by your right ear, and he went, yeah, yeah, I said, no, I'm serious, he said, yeah, I was like, I don't make any sudden moves, and he said, you serious, he's called up, he's like cotton, cotton mouths start arguing with me, cotton mouths don't climb trees, Jayce, I was like, there's one in that bush, and it's not a water snake, it is a cotton mouth, and he moved back and looking, he said, well, you're right, he reached around for his weapon, and just incinerated the bush and said snake, he said it dog on the right, yeah, he wasn't scared of that for whatever reason, because the snake wasn't in an aggressive position, but still, after all that, well then everybody realized, it's where you go in and out of the

18:50blunt, we have gone under this snake all day, he just said, yeah, I thought, if it had just dropped down on top of whatever that had been, that's what I'm saying, it's amazing, it never happened, what's ironic, Zach, is your mom did get bitten by poisonous snake, when she was in a girl's reaction, when she did, was there's nothing wrong with you? Well, she just talked about his pain tolerance was though. Yeah, the way she tells the story is that the grass was about knee high, because you know, Phil learned not to mother yard from I guess his parents, our grandparents, and they were playing football in the yard, Phil the boys and all our uncles, and my mom was kind of like the, I think her role was just, she was kind of like the servant worker, you know what I mean? Yeah, she kind of kept that role, you know, she cleaned everybody's house, I remember this, she was always the, you need something done, she's the one you call, so it feels like, go,

19:51run out there and get some water, she said, I don't want to run through that grass, because I don't want to get bitten by snake, but Phil's like, you're not going to get bitten by snake, go get a jug of water, so she runs over there, fills it up with water, she's running back, as she's scared the whole time, and she, she feels something hit her toe, like like an intense pain, when she knew she had been bitten by snake, I said, then when she gets back to Phil, she's like, I just got bitten by snake, and then so let me see, let me see it, and so he looked at her toe, and there was only one, but there was a prick mark on it, and he said, no, not a snake, and he, she said, he took a stick and drew a circle in the sand, and he put two dots, he said, snake, two things, you two, one hole, not a snake, and so she, I got bitten by, I know I got bitten by a snake, well, this whole thing unfolds as she ends up back in the house with a grainy and paw, and then she starts to get sick, and then her leg starts to swell up, and there's red veins, like red

20:57streaks going up her leg, and grainy's like, I think you need to take her to the hospital, and of course, like, granddad was kind of, you know, how he was, and I should be alright, that's where he's gone, a lot of his stuff. Oh yeah, so my mom's like dying, like she's literally starts to vomit, intense fever, I mean, this is the whole thing, and the whole time, and grainy finally like, you know, she had her way too, finally she's like, she got so animated that Paul's like, all right, I guess I'll take her, so he takes her to the hospital, and sure enough, she had gotten bitten by a water moxon, and so, she was running, so one thing went in her, but that was the infamous mom got bitten by a cotton mouth and fill and Paul told her she'd be our right story. So we got out of Christmas, got out of New Year's, got out of all of that, after all the holiday craziness out, the last thing you want to do is to overthink dinner. No doubt about it, and that's what I love about home chef. Oh yeah, home chef makes it easy to get back on track with simple

22:00recipes, fresh ingredients, and mills that actually feel doable. It helps us all get back into a rhythm without defaulting the takeout every night, which is not healthy for you. Home chef has rated number one by users of other milk kit for quality, convenience, value, taste, and recipe, ease. Home chef makes cooking simple fresh food delivered right to your door, easy steps to follow, and mills that actually taste great. And now with dishes that are co-created alongside celebrity chefs like Gordon Ramsay, you can enjoy restaurant quality mills at home. I like to cook, so I love getting all the ingredients there. It's everything is fresh, it's ready to go. They give you the recipe, and they have different ones, kicking chickens, one of my favorite, they have a tuna that's also really delicious. Plus, it's affordable. Home chef customers save an average of 86 bucks per month on groceries, so for a limited time, home chef is offering our list, there's 50% off and free shipping for your first box plus to get free dessert for life. All you got to do is go to homechef.com slash on a shame. That's homechef.com slash on a shame for 50% off your first box and

23:02free dessert for life. Homechef.com slash on a shame must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. Since we're talking about snake bites, one last Chuck Norris show, a cobra bit Chuck Norris, and five days later, the cobra died a painful death. All right, that's it. Well, I'll make a good segway here. Before we read this first John IV, we're going to talk about today. In first John III, in verse 8, because don't you find it fascinating that the evil one took the form of a serpent that's true in the garden. Now, whether that's literal or used as an analogy, I'm open for suggestion. Yeah, because it was, whatever it was, it was a little different than what we would know

24:02because remember one of the curses was you'll be slithering the rest of the way. So I don't know if they could walk. I don't know what was going on there, but it was different, but people do not like snakes by nature. People like to talk about all that, but the point of it is that there are spiritual forces of evil. Yeah. And and how that happened, there are a ton of views on, you know, how, where, where did the evil one? How did, how did that happen? Yeah. You know, there's this interesting take in Ezekiel 28 that it's a prophecy, but it's intertwined with real people and the king of somewhere. And all of a sudden, it's like, well, that sounds like it's kind of giving you some hints into the evil one's origin, like a fallen angel. So, but I want to, I just want to point out that this profound verse that we read in 1 John 3 where it says verse 8 says,

25:03he who does what is sinful is of the devil because the devil has been sinning from the beginning, which he goes back to the garden moment in Genesis 3. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. I mean, which would be sinning, right? That means something. I mean, Jesus came to defeat. I mean, he did, he came for a lot of reasons in the flesh. Yeah. Because that's kind of what first John is zero and in on like the anti-Christ is one that does it acknowledge Jesus Christ has come in the flesh 4, 3, 4, 2, and 3 first John. But there, that means something. I tend to think as followers of Jesus, we zero in on one thing and make that the thing. But part of what God did through Jesus and given us the Holy

26:10Spirit, which is all over the place in what we're reading in chapter 3 and in chapter 4, he came to defeat and destroy the devil's work. And where we are in our context as in 4, 7 to 21, he says basically him coming here to do that work for us is the ultimate illustration of love. That's his love. I mean, it's the biggest illustration. I want to remind you and this was my idea literally one minute before we started where I wanted to go because there's something interesting that happens or something interesting that happens from a biblical perspective and that the Hebrew word for atonement is all over the place in the Old Testament. Yeah. And when you get to the new Testament, not so much. And so you're like, well, what happened? How come it's not talked about much? And the verse I want to point out, and this is not the first time it's mentioned in 1 John,

27:17but we really didn't talk about it the first time it was mentioned. The first time it was mentioned was in 1 John 2 and verse 2, speaking of Jesus being our advocate or crudely, you know, our lawyer in heaven, but it's that Greek word paracletus which we went through which is used as reference by John to be the Holy Spirit four times in John 14 and then in John 16. But here he uses it as Jesus on our defense, being alongside of us, speaking in our defense. And then he says in verse 2, he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. So that phrase atoning sacrifice, that in Greek, there's a word that is being translated atonement. Well, it's only used twice this specific word

28:27in the New Testament here and first John 4, 10. But to finish the verse, it says he's the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world. So there's one and the other. You're like, this is the only two times as mentioned, this exact phrase, this is it. Now there's a cousin of this mentioned elsewhere and I'm going to bring that up. But first John 4 and verse 10, this is love, not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. You see, it was translated the same phrase. So you say, why bring this up? Now, if you're new to the faith, you probably don't realize that the idea of atonement is muchly debated on what it means. I would say borderline controversial.

29:30Zach. Oh, it's been very controversial. And there's been, well, one thing that happened recently, there's a book that was written that came out that got a lot of traction about, you know, so one camp wants to kind of, well, it's kind of nuanced, but one camp wants to deny the atonement as part of of salvation, the other, and then another group, maybe he wants to overemphasize atonement and there's kind of different variations in between. And what does the atonement mean? Well, let's focus on the second one. Let's focus on the second one. There's different, now how did you just put that? There are different variations in stress, what that means. A lot of, there's been a phrase that came up and I'm going to, I did a little research on it, but it's actually not in the Bible, but it's deducted from biblical verses. And it's a phrase that's called PSA and it's not public service announcement, which is kind of funny. But it's

30:32called penal substitution atonement. So, and where I'm going with this is you said, well, how do we define this? Because let me just give you the different words that are used for atonement. So this is one, I can't pronounce these things because I'm not a Greek, but so this one here, in first John 2, I can spell it for you. It's H-I-L-A-S-M-O-S. So what is that? Elasmus? So if I do an A-I, give you an overview, it says, atoning sacrifice, you used in first John 2, 2, and 14 exclusively to describe Jesus as the, and here's another word, propitiation for sins, as explained. And then he puts the resource here, or he, I'm calling A-I, then you have another word

31:35for propitiation, which is this word is H-I-L-A-S-T-E-R-I-O-N. Now, according to this, it's used twice. It's used in Romans 3.25, so I think I should read that. And it's more about the mercy seat or the place that this propitiation, which we'll define. You want to give a definition on that, that what people say. This morning, I thought back to a couple of past dogs we had when I thought I was Gabe. Oh, yeah. Gabe was my best friend and my child. Gabe was a very protective, wonderful animal. And so you know, we love her pets, right? They're there for us. She has these great memories when you think about them. And that's why we want to take care of them, which is why rough greens comes into play. What happens is your animals, your dogs get older, they get a little slower,

32:39they get a little pickier about their food. Sometimes the digestion doesn't work like it should. And the main reason why is that traditional dog food are missing key ingredients, they're missing probiotics, enzymes, omega-ols, and most importantly, the live vitamins. Your dog needs to digest and absorb food. That's where rough greens comes in. It's America's number one dog supplement. You sprinkle it right on their food. It's packed with all the live nutrients that they need. Plus, it's all natural and made right here in the good old US of a rough greens is helping dogs feel younger, more energetic, healthier than they have in years and your dog could be one of them. All you need to know if this is something they enjoy is when you start rustling that bag, you just watch them. And they love it. To get excited, mind you as well, coats are shinier. Definitely, you'll notice the difference. Get a free jump start, try it back for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com, use the discount code on a shame. Rough greens, we make any dog food better.

33:43All right, so Romans 3.25, God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement. I have a little letter in my Bible and it says, or is the one who would turn aside God's wrath, taking away sin, but this was the 1984 NIV. So there's another letter in the current NIV that says see Leviticus 16, 15 and 16. Let's see Leviticus 16, 15 and 16. I guess I need to read that. So we'll do the technical side of this and then we can talk about it practically. Leviticus 16, 15 says, so now we're going old testament, we're going to the law of the day of atonement is the title in Leviticus 16. It says he shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the

34:47bull's blood. He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. And this way he will make atonement for the most holy place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. So this is the seat on top of the ark is what it is and it looks like two angels, two cherubs and that's what's called the mercy seat. So I think that's helpful because the other verse that that word is used, and look, this is the only two on this one. So you have two for this propitiation which we haven't defined yet, Zach. He brews nine of them. Yeah, I mean I think that I think propitiation would be that there is an infraction, there's a payment that must be satisfied. Maybe a debt. Yeah, debt, a consequence of sin. Or even the wrath that you know, we've seen the song, the wrath of God is satisfied. That's where the big debates at right

35:51now is, is does God pour out his wrath on the sun? That's the, that's the big question. We'll save that because we'll just get the technical stuff because that's the one point I have issue with and look, you don't agree with me? Fine. Read the verses and come up with what you, what, what you will. But I just want to get the technical stuff. So I'll read this Hebrews 9 on the other word for about the place because I believe that's the presence of God. It was in Leviticus. He's coming into the tabernacle. They're doing these sacrifices. Now Jesus is making the presence of God in heaven itself, which is the Hebrews 9.5. And the description before you read it is the Hebrew writer is describing the holy place, the most holy place, what's in there and how each of these things mattered to God. So that's the stuff. So Hebrews 9.5 above the art where the cherubim of the glory

36:51overshadowing the atonement cover or the mercy seat. Now then there's three different times in Hebrews that it talks about Jesus entered heaven itself on our behalf. So you're getting the idea of atonement to make the presence of God available for humans. So you have those two words and then you have another word. This is when atonement is involved and it's translated reconciliation in your Bible. So this is Romans 5.11. I'll read it real quick. So it's different words. So when you my point for doing all this is when you read atonement in the Bible, we just have English speaking translations which have the same word, but I'm telling you these are different words. So it will help you understand the arguments and what this means and how to figure this out. If you put the right word with the right translation in the text. So for this word reconciliation and it's

37:59spelled K-A-T-K-T-L-L-A-G-E. So Romans 5.11 says not only is this so but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have now received reconciliation. Now and you remember the context while we were sinners God you know verse 8. God demonstrates his own love for us while we were yet sinners Christ I for us. Verse 9. Since we have now been justified by his blood how much more so would be saved from God's wrath through him. So it's the it's the same talk about God's wrath, the blood, the sacrifice. But it's a different word. This is reconciliation. Now this is why the original word atonement in the English language go to a rabbit hole on it. Literally meant at one meant. So it's at one two parties that are estranged are broken are alienated.

39:10They have been united at one meant. So that's why atonement that's what that's what we get the English word right you see yeah. So the other place it's you it's only used four times but there are versions of reconciliation all over the place. So that's used a lot this second Corinthians 5. Oh second it's 5. I was going I was going to read it because that's where we need to hang out a little bit to understand this. So second Corinthians 5 we have this judgment seat of Christ that shows up in verse 10 and then we have verse 14 I think is key because it says for Christ love compels us because keep in mind before I give you my thoughts these two words for this propitiation or re or satisfying God's wrath are only used in 1 John and one of them is used in a chapter where the word love is used 27 times 15 murders I do not think that's an accident yeah because

40:17jumping ahead to where the arguments form some people tend to stress the appeasement of God's wrath and some people stress God's love and this judgment is an act of love because of his righteousness is justice I kind of lean on that side because this word is brought up in a chapter where it says God is love you know so let me read where it says reconciliation so in verse well let me read verse 14 of chapter 5 say Corinthians the whole thing for Christ love compels us because we are convinced that one died for all and therefore all died which is similar to 1 John 2 which says he's the atoning sacrifice not only not only for those who are following but for the whole world but then it says if anyone is in Christ for 17's a new creation the old is gone all this is from God who reconciled so there's another word used for atonement this cat word and then he gave us the

41:25ministry of reconciliation so we actually have the ministry of atonement bringing people back together with God through declaring Jesus which is exactly why I believe God me John said that not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world Christ sacrifice for atonement is big enough to always be available for more which is the point Paul's making here yeah but some of the argument on the other side is that no we we got what we need yeah and I'm like no it's bigger than that you got to think bigger it's more more is the word exactly so now I'm just gonna declare where I'm at and I realize some people will not agree with me I'm pretty sure that most of those people are not listening to this podcast because I've had multiple discussions with people and I'm like okay you you're you're highlighting the wrath of God I'm more highlighting love but I believe like in

42:26penal substitution I believe there's a payment that had to be made I believe that Jesus substituted in himself for us uh I haven't think the reason he chose the way to do it because he's it was certainly his choice because he said that you don't take my life I give it was to show how bad it is oh great well because when you get into the I think the biggest issue is if some camps would say that that the father poured out his hatred and wrath on the Sun right now I don't agree with that so I was fix to say that number one I don't agree that Jesus was punished that by God here's here's why uh and I'll just give you my overtake and as fast as I can so when I think fire and and punishment I think Genesis uh where's the story of Sodom and Gomorrah Genesis oh 1924 and 25 and look Jude on his take on Sodom and Gomorrah he uses the word punished yeah they

43:35were punished as an example right uh I'll give you another verse second Thessalonians 18 talking about fire and punishment it says that when Jesus comes back he will punish those who do not know God and he'll come in blazing fire and who don't you know the truth well I'm looking to this at Jesus well he knows God and nowhere in it in this book does it say he punished Jesus that's why I went through the technical analysis of this because that's the Greek word for the place of atonement yeah him opening up God's presence to us but it says he punished sin in sinful man so if you've been to the grocery store lately and everything's costing way more now food housing just everyday living so that raises a real question that the money that you've worked decades to say what's that actually going to value 20 years from now that's one of the reasons why a lot of

44:37folks are looking for different ways to diversify their savings with real assets like gold and silver and that's where freedom gold USA comes in for generations people have looked at physical gold and silver as a way to help preserve value especially during times of economic uncertainty freedom gold USA it helps people understand how physical precious metals might fit into your long term retirement strategy and their motto is really simple it's just get more metal for your money competitive pricing no gimmicks and specialists who focus on education not pressure in fact just over the last year gold's up probably over 60% so when you think about leading something behind for your kids your grandkids it's super important that those assets hold their value so when it comes to your savings you want to be wise about what you're planning for in the future to make sure that your assets actually hold up so right now they're offering a free 2026 gold and silver guide and no obligation consultation all you got to do is call 888-411-1845 or visit unashamedgold.com that's

45:47888-411-1845 or unashamedgold.com learn how diversification may help protect your retirement savings so in Romans 8 this is where this comes from but just read it carefully verse 1 therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because through Christ Jesus the law of the spiritual life set me free from the law of sin or death for what the law is powerless to do and that it was weakened by the sinful nature here we go God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering and we're not saying he didn't offer his son and look we're not saying based on John 10 that Jesus didn't willingly give up his life which we did a whole podcast on the definition of love is Jesus giving himself so and so here we go he condemned

46:47sin in sinful man in order that the righteous garments of the law might be fully mad in us so and that's what also said he also defeated the spiritual forces of evil that had a hand in that that's why first John 10 it's well that's the there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus for the law the spirit of life is set you free in Jesus Christ Jesus from the lawson and death for what for God has done with the law weakened by the flesh so that's a big line there why was the law weakened by the flesh is because the flesh is sinful like we are we're in sinful flesh and so Christ so we we couldn't do so Christ but Christ never sin but he does enter it into into flesh and so if you think about the even that as we're even first to second John think about how how John defines the anti Christ the anti Christ is anyone who says that Christ did not come in the flesh well why is that because that's the whole point of Christ God comes in flesh

47:51lives a perfect life in human flesh and that flesh is killed and then that flesh is vindicated through the resurrection and so it is a lot about victory you know I tend to hold the position though that there is a payment like there is sin has to be paid for where I think that people push back against the hard the what I would say more of the the hard view that that that the son himself with like that God didn't pour his wrath out on the sin in the son he poured his wrath out on the son I think you have issue there with the disruption of the triune nature and God you know the God really turn his face away you know I mean let's bring that up for example you know whenever he says my God my God why has thou forsaken me this is this is actually a key point let me get my Bible because I got a hold on one second hold that thought well I would say that why you're looking that up I mean Jesus is still suffering today in us I mean there's

48:55ton of verses that man when you told a Saul he said why are you persecute me yeah well we're we have the spirit of him in us yeah my point my whole point is if if he was being punished not punishing sin then why in the world with the whole four gospels would he be telling us to give our lives up why why would the apostles look all die martyrs dead if this was somehow us being punished but you got it it doesn't understand where they get that from they get that I think people get there I understand how you would get there because when crisis on the cross he does say my God my God why have thou forsaken me right so do you have this picture on the cross of what seems to be the father turning his face away from the sum we used to sing the song of church the father turns his face away but here's why I have an issue with that is mainly because I think that

49:58what Jesus is doing there when he says my God my God why has now why have thou forsaken me I think he's quoting Psalm 22 no you don't think he's definitely he's not yeah don't think it he's quoting it so go read Psalm 22 let me read Psalm 22 you tell me just by reading of the Psalm here if this is a picture of the father turning his face away is this a picture of the father hiding his face from the son that's the phrase we want to hang on to is the father according to Psalm 22 hiding his face from the son my God my God why have you forsaken me why are you so far from me saving me from the words of my groaning oh my God I cry out by day but you do not answer and by night I but I do not find rest yet you are holy and thrown on the praises of Israel if you are and you are father trusted and you delivered them to you they cried out and you rescued them and you they trusted and we're not

51:00put to shame and then and then he goes on and he and you see this whole thing about the the dogs encircle me he says the company of evil doers encircle me they pierced my hands was that sound like sounds like the crucifixion right they pierced my and feet this is Psalm 22 16 I can count all my bones they stare and gloat over me they divide my garments among them and for my clothing they cut cast lots where does that sound like exactly what happened to Jesus but you O Lord do do not be far off and he keeps on asking the Lord to save him God save me save me save me and then skip down to the last these two verses here this is in verse 24 for he is not despised or have or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted and listen this and he has not hidden his face from him but has heard him when he cried so I'm reading the Psalmist here and the Psalmist clearly says that as the Christ cries out

52:04don't forsake me the answer is I'm not the answer is I'm not the father does not hide his face from when he and the father has heard the son when he cried to him and so I think when you read Psalm 22 that verse 24 to me it really kind of destroys that that do you that somehow God looked on the son and when he was on the cross we're just like I can't look anymore and he turned away and rejected the son I don't I don't know how that's possible even ontologically in the in the very nature I agree how that's possible I agree and I agree that there is a payment made he did pay for the sins it does make you sin utterly sinful it to me your attitude it is not going to change as far as abhoring sin and what it does to people and the consequences and he did make the payment I just have the motivating factor as love when you read say Corinthians 5 where it says for Christ

53:07love compelled us now you say what was the context of that now I want you to notice this I think say Corinthians 5 is is so incredibly difficult to get around because he starts off with this judgment scene about all appearing for the judgment seat of Christ because what this uh it's hard for me to characterize their argument because I you know I don't I don't want to get it wrong but what this making making appease and God's judgment the gospel instead of God's judgment being appease through the offering of his son in love which is where I'm at which sounds similar but I'm just saying I've talked to these people and they're like oh no I don't know that the the stress is God's you know appeasement the love is minimized now that'll agree with it but it's

54:12just minimized so in all the sermons you're like hey it's it's not good news and that's my biggest problem with with it and it is detached from the resurrection so in light of can I can I can I say one thing because we're about out of time and I do and we would probably pick this up because I've made a pretty bold statement there I think could get a lot of people said but on the flip side I would there is a flip side of this that we also have to deal with that there's another side of this argument that basically says God's not really mad at all at you for your sin he just you're a sinner in your own mind you're not actually and God is just like but and I think that's equally damaging because why I think that's just almost downright silly and that's why I brought upside him in Amar but now you want punishment that was punishment but what I was going to make a point I didn't realize we were almost at a time but and I want to say this well what what did with God tell the humans in the garden if you see in what will happen you'll die you'll die as a punishment

55:16I would say yes well when you look at Jesus why why stress all this after he died his body didn't see decay why why did the the first Apostle stress that in their sermon you remember Acts 2 it's like well he didn't experience that punishment for sin he didn't have any sin right and it takes me back to the story of Abraham and Isaac you remember that where he was willing to sacrifice and and God would have been justified in doing that you know he would have been sent for Abraham was sinful why didn't he do that why is that the shadow are you willing to do it I just don't think you can make that up as for showing that God did this willingly out of love so I do want to read this second is five out because I brought it up so he gives the judgment saying verse 10 then he gives to 14 and he says if we're out of our mind that's 13 for Christ

56:20love compels us Christ love because we are convinced that one died for all he equated his love with him dying on a cross for everybody which was going to be point number two is that I don't agree that Jesus was punished he took the punishment for our sin the punishment and consequences of sin that we did he took that you know by by dying and number two for some reason that they didn't conclude that he didn't die for everybody and in both cases where which there's only four verses this doesn't talk about it he makes a point to say and he didn't just die for you he died for everybody and here he equates it to Christ love and he said and therefore all died so which I take from that that flesh is not bad the choice to disobey God is what's bad hope this helps and

57:20look there the out on let me give one disclaimer because I didn't get to say I there's so much nuance around this don't take anything we said in this and turn it into a sound bike because this is a much bigger discussion well that probably there's a lot here yeah yeah context is keen all right yeah I think the subtle differences that's why this is so frustrating like overall like I said I agree with the concepts but it's what you stress and you know look fire is a punisher but it's also a refiner yeah so every time you read the word fire it's not necessarily a bad thing even though suffering is involved yeah that's a good point all right we're out of time we'll pick it up next time don't run shame thanks for listening to the unashamed podcast help us out by leaving a rating and review on apple podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on youtube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode