Do we need stricter legislation for rickshaws?

0:00We want to find out about this appalling incident at Haramann's Turned Art Station in Dublin after it seems a young man was forced into a bin and pushed onto the railway tracks just on imaginable email as lunchtime live at newstalk.com. 08 7 1400 106 though as always that is the WhatsApp number. We've heard this morning that Dublin City Council is calling for urgent action on Rikshaw regulations and it follows the death of mum of two Daniele Okane and Northwall key just last week. Take a listen to Finnegale Dublin councillor Danny Burnne. He spoke to Anton about this proposal earlier this morning. Well the motion doesn't call for a ban. The motion calls for them to be examined for the government and for the NTA and for the Guardi to initiate or sorry for the government in the seat legislation.

1:08But reading between the lines from your perspective you would much rather see that as a blanket get these off the streets. Personally I would to be honest. I was Danny Burnne with Anton a little earlier and last Thursday on this program I spoke to Ashling Okane about her sister in law, Daniele before she passed away and I asked her about whether she'd like to see a change nationally to Rikshaw and Eastcooter regulations in general. I think anything that's capable of carrying passengers just shall be a very big focus on policing them, making sure that their road safe, that there's, if we're driving a car and we're found to not be wearing seat belts, there's penalty points there, there's repercussions, there's nothing of the sort for Rikshaw right now. Even guards wouldn't be inclined to take their so many of them. The guards aren't, they don't have the ability to police them.

2:09But they don't have the ability to police them and offer the safety for cautions. In my opinion they shouldn't be on the road, they're not a road already, not passenger already, not life already. So do you think we need stricter regulations and rules around Rikshaw's operating nationally in general across the country, 08 7 1400, 106 is the WhatsApp number, Connor Faulkner, independent motoring expert with Carzone is with me here on lunchtime live today. And Connor, just speaking generally, like there seems to be an issue with the rules and regulations around Rikshaw's for some time. Yeah, for years and in fact we have legislation that was passed, it's nearly 10 years old now that was intended to properly regulate Rikshaw's, everybody agrees they need to be regulated. But that legislation was flawed and it's never really been commenced and they're still living in a bit of a legal gray area. And now look, we can fix this and they've just introduced regulations in London that seem

3:10to do everything that we would need them to do in Dublin. And I don't see why we can't just copy that, but it appears to be stuck in a legal loophole and then just neglected as a problem. As I say, 10 years ago there was near universal consensus that we needed to regulate them. We passed the legislation to do so, but the legislation doesn't seem to be workable and hasn't been commenced and nobody bothered going back and if you're like properly fixing the problem. And when you said there's an issue with regulation, do you mean with the enforcement of us? Well, at the moment they don't have proper regulations to enforce. The Rikshaw's that we'll see in Dublin, they're legally they're just the same as bicycles. Now they shouldn't be, but in law they're just the same as bicycles and there's not much to guard the can-do. Now the guard they can prosecute if they mount a footpath or break a red light. The can prosecute them just for being there and putling around. Whereas in fact, they're operating in effect like transport vehicles for the public and they need to be regulated in that way.

4:13And as I say, we've known that that's a problem, that's a regulatory gap for years. And we've fixed the regulatory gap that used to exist for e-bikes and for e-scouters, so we were able to do that. But we haven't fixed it in terms of these Rikshaws. And as I say, to me that's, I don't know whether you'd call it laziness, is it with the NTA, is it with government for primary legislation, is it with the local authorities? Nobody really seems to be clear on that. It's fun to say that because we've been investigating this and talking and researching it for the past number of days. And there seems to be, I don't want to say a lack of clarity, but certainly I would say more clarity is needed around who is responsible for enforcing this. What's happening in the UK that you talked about, that you think is a good idea in terms of how Rikshaws might be legislated for? Well like Ed Dublin, London had our care clause that went back to the early 19th century

5:13about hackney versus carriages versus taxis. And like Dublin, they had no legislation to deal with Rikshaws. So they brought in new local legislation that applies in London. And essentially it does the things you'd want to do. So background checks for drivers, maximum fares specified, safety standards for the vehicles themselves, they have decided to allow with conditions electrically assisted Rikshaws provided they behave like e-bikes. And they've applied regulations for all of those things. They actually go live at the end of this month. It's new law in London. It's been a problem for them for years. They do seem to have solved it with a fairly sensible set of regulations. One of the problems in Ireland, which to me is inexcusable, Andrea, is apparently there is a legal difficulty about how you define Rikshaw. And there might be a legal difficulty, but surely to God, it can't hold things up for 10 years. I mean, if it walks like a dog and quacks like a dog, there has to be a legal way of telling

6:14me that it's a dog. Well, I've been able to do that in London, so I just don't see why there's a problem. Why we can't find a way to do it here too. And I suppose maybe the difficulty, I don't know, but I'm speculating that perhaps around the fact that you have some Rikshaws are like your standard bicycle. They're a pedal push bike, albeit with the space in the back, somewhere for higher in carrying passengers. And then others are motor or battery operated. So there seems to be a different clarification around the type of Rikshaws that might be operating nationally around the country. Stick with this corner for a moment. I have Damien on the line. Damien is a former boss driver. Were Rikshaws on the road, Damien, when you were driving bosses? No, the one time, Andrea. And I only noticed them really in a floorly, just before the culprits and the lockdown around Grafton Street. And then they disappeared, I think, by order.

7:15There's some controversy about the most unpleasant experience to meet some of these Rikshaws common-down Grafton Street against pedestrians. That's the most of their pedestrian area. So they didn't have much regard for the law. But I never saw anything like the flashing lights and extra beams of the recent times, probably to late as well. And I think that's a distraction. That type of noise and light show on these Rikshaws. So the lights that are around them and use a common from them, Damien. Yes, some of the older people like myself would remember, the schools and the psychedelic lights and flashing lights. And if you come out into the street, it's a little bit disoriented from those lights, nothing mentioned the sound. These things are multidessebel. There's a warning on one of the plans, as I use an electrical plans, that it has 90 desibels of sound. These things have to have 90 desibels around the Rikshaws. So adds consider noise pollution as a factor there as well.

8:18So you think that's a... Or anywhere. You think that's maybe noise pollution might be an issue with some of the Rikshaws. Brian is on the line, Damien, as well. Brian, your taxi driver, is that right? Yeah, yeah. And I presume, probably, sure, at night time in particular, you must encounter Rikshaws out and about on the roads as well. Well, when I did night, I did encounter the lawless and getting back to the councillors' view earlier on, I think there should be bandwidth to legislation is brought forward where they can be licensed, insured, and also go through the same stringent test that I have to go through every year. So there's some sort of nearly... In the way that you have to apply and pay for a taxi license, Brian, you feel there should be some form of Rikshaw license required as well? They should be NCT every year as well. You know, bring them into the transport situation, along with the rest of us. Like, anyone can drive a Rikshaw at this stage, they're not even insured.

9:22Treated as bikes, as Connor was saying earlier on. Bicycles. No, it's absolutely ridiculous. So you didn't do it yet? No, you didn't do it. Like, no one could go out and just stick a taxi stick around their car and drive around pick up people up. So why should a person in the three-seater bush bike be able to go out, pick people up and bring them all around and get paid for it? Yeah, so you agree with this idea? And Connor talked about maybe some of the rules that are being brought in there in London. That sounds kind of somewhat similar, Brian, to what you're thinking as well. Yeah, but bring them onto the taxi regulation act. And then you see them, you know, they wouldn't be spinning in and out of traffic as they'd have to have the number. So you could report and then the owner of the vehicle would get the summons. So that's it. Yeah, it's just on that corner. Like that's kind of what they're looking at in London, really, isn't it? That I mean, you'd effectively become a sort of a, you know, a bicycle taxi operator.

10:23A taxi? Yeah. But but it's quite like touch. I mean, they're inexpensive annual licenses that are charging people. And so it shouldn't be a huge barrier to entry. If you really want to be a rich, sure, driver. And then the broader sense that kind of welcome on the landscape, I should have mentioned earlier that one of the rules they have in London as well as a ban on external audio. For exactly the problem that was being highlighted and some of them are ridiculous. But as a general rule, they're a colorful part of the landscape. They're not really a huge part of the transport mix, but they're kind of useful for people getting back from the point, for example. And there's no reason that if they're well regulated and well monitored and well behaved, that they shouldn't be part of the mix. And as I say, the frustration for us is that we've known this for many years, well, at least 10 years, and we've known that we need to put in proper regulations for these things or ban them altogether. And we've sort of done neither. There's an exception. It's supposed to be with the NTA to issue licenses to these people in the same way

11:23that they do with taxis. But the NTA themselves are dissatisfied with the legislation. And, you know, everybody seems to be arguing about how you define the things and whose job it is to actually do what business. And they haven't made much progress on it in 10 years. Yeah, but just to be clear about this kind of thing. So just to be clear, because I can even tell some of the listeners today are confused about this and going to come to the messages in a moment, oh, wait, 7, 1400, 106. But like, as it stands today, can I go out and either buy or hire or borrow a rickshaw of somebody tonight and stars basically, you know, operating as a rickshaw taxi around Galway or Corc or Dublin or so I need no license. No, there's literally nothing to stop you. You're treated like a bicycle. And now, you know, there may be other rules about for fair or reward and you're taking money from people or whatever. And but out there in your rickshaw with passengers in the back, absolutely nothing in order to stop you from doing so provided it's a pedal powered rickshaw.

12:26And if you've got an electrical assist on it, which they're tolerating in London, then making rules for, but no electrical assist allowed. If you're a lexical assist of any sort, it's a it's a mechanical power vehicle and you're not allowed to do it at all. Guards can seize it. But if it's just a pedal powered one, there's nothing, nothing to stop you. And as they say, everybody knows that they're not just bicycles. They belong somewhere else in law. They need a couple of rules and regulations. Everybody knows that. But the rules and regulations don't actually exist. The legislation was passed, but not commenced. The guards can still prosecute you. Andrea, if you know, you're putling around go wherever you're doing, and you can use a traffic sense. So, you know, you're mad before the path you block the traffic. You go through a red light, anything like that. The guards can and certainly do prosecute rickshaw drivers for that. But there's nothing stop them being nothing to stop them being there driving their rickshaw with passengers in the back provided they behave like a bicycle. Patrick is with us too, Connor.

13:27Patrick, you're also a taxi driver. So, so you probably likely encounter rickshaws at various different stages as well. Yeah, well, look, Brian, I don't do noise anymore. I used to and it just, and I couldn't understand why a lot of taxi drivers don't walk in the streets when you have the look at the rickshaws, you know, they create an environment on the whole concept there. But I mean, welcome and I'm scared. They're not so dangerous. I've had it for years. From day one, it was said that somebody was going to be killed. I'm going to do it. They behave. Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I know you're just, I know you're just talking more in a, in a general sense, Patrick, in relation to this. But I suppose I take what you're saying is that you feel there, there is a need for stricter regulations. But there needs to be something like it's a typical thing to police or whatever legislation. No, in the legislation's been moved over the last 10 years. And they're just sitting on the hands and the way that this is happening now, this shouldn't have happened. It's something that should not have happened.

14:27No, no, no, no, no. We're kind of, we're precluded, Patrick, too, really. You know what? What we can say, we really didn't investigate into the guards, but what I suppose, just in a general sense when you hear what's happening in London and Connor is highlighted that an amino or other, other callers there, Brian as well as a taxi driver, you know, he feels that is somebody that's paying for a license and has rules to obey because he's, he's ferrying passengers, you know, providing a taxi service. Do we need those kind of rules brought in where rickshaws are, are being used to transport customers for payment? Get out of that railroads and do, and do legislate for it. Yeah, well, there has to be something like that because, you know, they're talking tax compliance. You know, if the mega money they're going to have to pay tax on the income, how do you income earned? And, you know, it's kind of mentioned there to be the, the handy for getting up and down from the points. It shouldn't, shouldn't need them. If they allow taxi drivers to go up there instead of touring them away at the roundabout, before the roundabout, not allowing them to turn on, creating a problem

15:31of joy was having to do you turns on the road to pick people up. It's just often, it's often just that you can't, you just can't get it. You know, there's just not enough of them there at that one point in time and, you know, the whole, um, well, I was telling you now for a fight, really, that you should get frustrated. When I was doing, you know, it's, you, it'd be called to pick somebody up. So I just say, for instance, that, you know, the trail in and you get how about course on the pickle and they were waiting up towers around the belt. And you tried to go to pick them up and you can't, you just you can't get up to pick them up, you know, and it's easy with that. Doesn't know the same on my, for instance, there to work back as I said, don't be a noise, but I did drop a friend of mine and his wife to a concert, which is fine. I want to make the pick them up. I wasn't allowed near the place. We're in a, we're about to boil. And I'm here near a little, a little routine around those able to go. The police had to, and it wasn't because the place was crowded. There were no crowds coming out at that point. But the police would not allow anyone to do. The time she's actually gone past me as I went down towers, my lovely castle, to a heading in the opposite direction to Lloyd's traffic management,

16:33wherever the plan was. And this would just would alleviate a lot of you know need for these, these rickshaws. It's not need for the month. I'm looking at will say there's, you know, some text from, from listeners to, who, who see the merit in having them and many like Brian today, who just feel that general rules are required around them. Justin responds to this. The NTA, we've got unto the national transport authority about this. And whether they're responsible or not. And they've come back to say that they've consulted with the relevant area. And can confirm that the matter doesn't fall within the remit of the national transport authority. Accordingly, we're not in a position to provide a spokesperson in relation to this. And Dublin City Council to have gotten touched to stay to say that the local authority has no statutory role in licensing, regulating or enforcing the operation of Rickshaw services, carrying passengers for hire or reward. Under the 9th, 2016 road traffic act, it provides for the insertion of a power enabling the NTA to make regulations in relation to the operation of non-motorized passenger transporters,

17:34including things like Rikshaws, but the section hasn't been commenced. As the point Connor was making earlier, but they too go on to say that the council continues to exercise its functions as a road authority. And in relation to traffic management, it doesn't have piracy to license or regulate Rikshaw operators. We would too welcome clarification from government and the NTA, regarding the future regulation of Rikshaws. And any measures considered necessary in the interests of public safety. So, so even Dublin City Council, Connor, just on a final point, even they're looking for clarity around this. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is a single voice in the conversation that doesn't want these things to be regulated. So why haven't we done it? And as I say, if it's the case that the 2016 legislation was flawed and was unable to intend, well, then maybe fix it with primary legislation. But I make the point again, it cannot be that hard. If everybody involved agrees that we need regulations, it cannot be that hard to create the legal basis for them.

18:35And I've been, we're keep saying that Donner's in London, I know the rules are different, but there is sort of, you know, no less complicated than ours. And they had some of the same silly arguments. And what they seem to have been able to do is, and it's beyond me why we can't. It seems to just fall enough. Everybody's raiding our screen as a priority. So both the legislators will be busy with budget today and the aftermath of that. But I've no doubt, considering we've been talking about it for the past 20 minutes here, Connor and the show, it will be brought to their attention. I'm sure in the in the coming hours and we'll keep listeners posted on any updates to that. For the moment, Connor Faulkner, independent, motoring experts with Carzone, also Damien, who's a former bus driver and Brian and Patrick, both taxi drivers. Thanks a million to you both for getting in touch with us on the show. Email if you want to share your own thoughts or experiences around the use of Rick Shaws. You can get us on lunchtime live at newstalk.com. Lunchtime live with Andrea Gilligan weekdays at midday on news talk conversation that counts.