Do Animals Make Mistakes? (featuring Dr. Andy Sih)

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4:17How are the extraordinary? We often talk on this show about how natural selection has exquisitely shaped animals to help them thrive in their environments. And while that's still true, I'm sure we've all seen animals doing something truly stupid. So why do animals make mistakes? What kind of mistakes do they make? And does living in a world that is profoundly altered by humans cause animals to make more mistakes or even make new mistakes? We're getting answers to these questions today from the amazing Dr. Andy C. Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Mistake in Universe. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist who likes to think about aliens and in my house is an animal who never makes a mistake. Who is that animal? Is it? He's a very good boy. Is it Puppito? Yeah, he's a good boy. I have Kelly Wiener Smith, I study parasites and space and I have a

5:24lot of goats who I may they're not making mistakes. They're just being stinkers. I guess, no, that's not true. They've gotten themselves stuck in lots of things and I've had to get them out of trouble. So that's a mistake. Are goats famous for making good life choices? No, no, but they're curious and they have a lot of fun. So there's some there's some lesson there for the rest of us, I think. Always think to yourself, what would a goat do in this situation? Yeah, they would make a loud noise, look for snacks and then follow whatever their heart is telling them to do. That's what I think. Awesome. Speaking of mistakes, we got a fantastic question from a listener. So let's go ahead and take a listen to what Durin wanted to know about. Hey Daniel and Kelly, this is Durin in Dallas, Texas. I wanted to ask if there is a biological or scientific concept of a mistake. Sometimes Kelly would describe a specific animal behavior that deviates from a known behavior with a known evolutionary benefit. And the suggestion is sometimes that maybe there's some alternative

6:28advantage. But my thought is what if the organism just goofed up? And if so, how do we know that it was a mistake? Also, are there different types of mistakes? Me locking my keys in the car seems like it would be different than a parasitic was this interpreting sensory cues and infected the wrong coast. Thanks and love the show. Oh my gosh, I got so excited when I got this question because it turns out that I got my PhD with like the mistakes guy, the guy who studies mistakes and studies how are like rapidly changing environment impacts how often animals are making mistakes and which animals are making the right decision as the environment is changing. And my PhD advisor is like the coolest guy around and so I am stoked to have him on the show. But why is your advisor study mistakes? I mean, I thought you got your PhD on like fish guts or Andy C over the course of his career has come up with lots of new fields that have become like super hot topic that like thousands of people work on. He's just like this amazing idea guy.

7:30But when I went into his lab, I was studying animal personalities, which I think we'll get to today. And I particularly, it wasn't excited about fish guts, but I was interested in how parasites would impact the behaviors and the personalities of their hosts either directly by infecting them and changing their behavior in some way or indirectly because animals might change their behaviors to try to avoid getting infected. And so I was interested in parasites and behavior. That was that was my thing. Well, I think it's amazing that you had such a good experience to your advisor. And you're still so positive and excited about him. And so my question to you is that you think he's so awesome. Is he the goat? He is the goat. He is the greatest of all time advisor. I'm leaning in. Yep. He is. I had a great time working with Andy. But he's the goat that makes good life choices. Yeah, right. Not he doesn't make a lot of mistakes like my goats. He's he's he's the right kind of goat. Yeah. And you know what? Let's not wait any longer. Let's bring the goat advisor onto the show right now. Dr. Andy C is a distinguished professor in the Department

8:34of Environmental Science and Policy at the University of California Davis. He's won the animal behavior society's exemplar award for major long term contributions and animal behavior. Their quest award for seminal contributions and animal behavior and their distinguished animal behavior is award for outstanding careers in animal behavior. Basically, if there is an animal behavior award out there, Andy has won it. And I could go on. I'm a huge fan because he was my PhD advisor, but it's way more fun to hear him talk than to hear me talk. So let's bring Andy on to the show. Great to see you, Andy. Yeah. Happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be seeing you again after many years. I don't think we've I don't think I've seen your face in a long time. Wow. Whereas I've seen your face many times in just, you know, various, various formats. I'm sorry about that. It's always fun to meet other people's thesis advisors. Since you're an expert on behavior, I have to ask you, was Kelly a well-behaved grad student?

9:36Oh my god. No, Kelly was a she was one of these forces of nature who was just sort of making life better for everybody all the time. And she and Zach also just sort of endlessly amused us with her science and her gigantic cats. Oh, Hilbert has since passed on. I know exactly which gigantic cat you're referring to. He was he was mammoth at one point, but he was a lot of fun. Well, you used to amuse me by having a whole wall in your house of mirrors and many parties centered around karaoke. And I remember having loads of fun singing in your house. So it was fun being in the sea lab. Yeah. And we have a sort of a karaoke song event as part of the PhD party where everybody sings their song. And I probably have the recording of you singing your song somewhere back there and planning to put together an entire YouTube of all the songs over the

10:39years. I think mine was parasite themed. If I really think I changed the lyrics. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Speaking of mistakes. Recording yourself doing karaoke. All right. But today we are here to talk about mistakes because we got this fantastic question from a listener about animal behavior and mistakes. So I thought we could start with obvious mistakes. So you know, the listener was asking do animals ever make mistakes? But there are some very clear instances where it's not black and white. The animal is making a mistake. So Andy, tell us about animals who make obvious mistakes. Good question. So I think animals often do make mistakes. But some of the most spectacular ones are ones associated with what are called evolutionary traps where they almost certainly did something like really stupid because they did evolve a system of thinking about the world that used to work

11:42in the old world. But now often humans have added something that ends up causing things to backfire from their simple system. And the one that has gotten a lot of attention and you can see the pictures online is the Beatles and Beer bottles example. You guys have heard about that one? No. Do Beatles drink beer bottles in the wrong way? Yeah. So that is part of the jokes that come out of it because the whole thing happens in Australia where the Aussies are known for their fondness of beer. But in this case it's Beatles that actually have been observed furiously attempting to mate with beer bottles. And so this is where these Beatles, their jewel beetles, their brown, their you know beetles, they're kind of longish and cylindrical and they have a sort of pebbly texture. And when males are looking for a female they do need a cue. Some sort of information that tells them this is a female

12:46and you know the same with us that when we look at look around we have cues that identify this is a human, this is a human that is in fact the sex we're interested in and this is one we really like. And so the Beatles use this simple cue of sort of hard cylindrical kind of longish brown pebbly textured and it turns out beer bottles fit the criterion and what's more for them bigger is better and a beer bottle turns out to be super sexy and people observed like you can see pictures online invite you to look it up, jewel beetles and beer bottles. They're just like a whole cluster of males on the bottle with their little you know insect genitalia extended mating with the beer bottle. Wow that seems like we can call that a mistake. I think that's a mistake. And do they seem to figure it out eventually or do they just keep furiously mating with the bottle until they have

13:51completed their part of the process. Yeah and that is the amazing thing is it was so bad and so persistent because those bottles are so sexy to them that actually the entire species was in decline because so many males were actually just on the beer bottle until they die. Wow they were actually getting exhausted sitting out in the Aussie hot sun getting dehydrated or finally ants came and just got them and killed them that the whole species was actually in decline and ecologists were actually became something was in the newspaper and so on of our beer bottles are killing these beetles. Wow the decline of a species because of the failure of the male gaze that's amazing. Yeah and there are probably other examples of that and one could even you know I don't even know actually is literally decline but people have actually ended up saying that internet porn has some resemblance of distracting to the point of like loss of productivity or something but

14:55they actually did manage to recover these beetles by having the the beer manufacturers change their bottles. Wow. Wow what did they have to change? Yeah so they actually apparently debated that one thing you could do is change to green bottles instead of brown okay but then it turns out that green bottles actually do not screen out UV very well and it messes up the flavor of the beer which is interesting because some beers are in green bottles but apparently it's well known that it can mess up the flavor of the beer but they just had to remove the pebbly texture that they had on sort of the bottom of the bottles on just part of the bottle and that actually solved the problem. And the species has rebounded. I'm just trying to imagine what was like to work at that beer manufacturer and to get that phone call and like this just sounds like a prank you know. But I guess it was in the newspaper it was something that was being talked about and I think they were happy to get the good press from saving these incredible beetles. So we're calling it a mistake

16:01because the creature was evolved to suit a certain situation and then it turns out that that same behavior doesn't really work anymore because as you say the environment has changed because of what humans have done. So we're calling that a mistake it's like a mal adaptation. Yeah and you know what is a mistake can be pretty subtle but these examples of what actually colleges call an evolutionary trap. You know they were trapped into doing something really like our favorite examples are obviously this is the wrong thing to do and those you know we're just happy enough to call those mistakes like there are also loads of insects that are laying their eggs on windows. Why windows? And the reason appears to be that they also these are these aquatic insects that you have the larval stages in the water but then the adults come out and fly around like dragonflies do that and mosquitoes you know lots of things do that and they have to figure out when they're

17:02ready to lay their eggs back in water what is water. And so when we look at a pond we are actually using some set of cues that tells us this is a pond and it's water you know and so they actually use a particular pattern of reflected light off of the water to tell them its water and that's always worked well this particular pattern that even involves polarized light it's always worked well evolutionarily over time but now glass in the right conditions can actually have the same reflected pattern so they think glass is water which you know that could happen to us in just the right conditions but for them it's so ingrained that that pattern means water that they seem to not care that it's vertical. Well are these good insects you know like honey bees or bad insects like mosquitoes so should I feel bad about this or not. Yeah so honey bees luckily they don't have larvae in the water but this is happening to like bezilians that's like more than billions I guess is

18:07bezilians of mayflies and I think dragonflies do it some but you know lots of insects are doing it mayflies might maybe even do it more because they only you know have like a day or two to just mate and lay their eggs in the water so they're in a rush and they've got this simple cue that's water and they're just you know photos of incredible numbers of mayflies clustered on windows and you know mismanaging the system making an error. Daniel have you seen slight tangent have you seen mayflies before? Have you like been in an area when mayflies emerged? I don't even know what a mayfly is. Oh man Andy do you want to go into a bit more detail about the amazingness that is mayflies? Tell us. Yeah okay I'm not an expert on that though I have seen other people's talks about it but there are lakes where when they come out and they come out synchronously which makes sense because if you're only going to be alive as an adult they've been in an aquatic larva for like a year

19:09then they come out as adults and within a day or two they're only built to live a short time they have to mate lay their eggs and you don't want to do that like the day after everyone else does it you know you got to do it at the same time as everyone else if you're going to mate and so they come out synchronously in some of these lakes where it's so many of them that it's literally blinding like you're walking through just a mass of insects there are just you can't even you've got to push there out of the way to just even walk around there just again I don't know what the right word is bezilian seems like what I usually use mayflies again that's something that I'm sure there are YouTube's online you should check it out it's it's like I've never gone there but to see it happen because I guess you got to hit that day just right you probably got to hang around for a little while but I'd love to love to actually be there and experience it sometime I hit that day oh my god I so I lived on the along Lake Erie and so I got my you know bachelor's and master's degree in Ohio

20:11and I was on literally what are the worst dates of my life I had just finished asking the guy hey why is it that you always talk about chemistry but you've never mentioned your wife before and his answer was because chemistry is more interesting this was the last date but right after he said that I looked up and there was a cloud moving towards us and I was like that's like cloud is really low what's going on it was mayflies that like so many mayflies had emerged all at once it was like a cloud moving towards us and then the next day when I walked around that like you know the little city you would slip there were like so many of them that had died after like their big mating that the ground was like slippery and you had to like you know watch out because you'd fall over because there were all of these like dead mayflies that you would slip on that all died at once after the at finish mating and anyway maybe they laid all of their eggs on all of the windows and I had missed that because I was too focused on the bad date and trying not to trip they also get

21:12fooled by somewhat wet asphalt so they've also laid massive numbers of eggs on wet roads so maybe that's what you know you were slipping on is is there eggs and their bodies yeah apparently there are so many of them that they still are doing okay I think as opposed to the beetles even starting to decline in as a species okay so this concept of evolutionary traps is new to me but it's fascinating so but I guess it means you can take advantage of a species and manipulate them into behavior you want like when we you know have like duck calls or like when I put a piece of cheese in a trap is that like an evolutionary trap I'm taking advantage of yeah yeah it definitely is I want to quickly note that there is a medium literature on humans falling into evolutionary traps where the you know I kind of mentioned internet porn people have actually sort of talked about that but the main one that people talk about is people evolved likely often in places with relatively

22:16like not enough food and so we've evolved a strong craving for in fact high calorie food fatty sugary foods and obviously in the modern world there's just a lot more of that available and people have said we've become evolutionarily trapped into what at a species level is a global epidemic of overeating those foods with major health you know implications and so on so if you want to talk about animals getting trapped and having major problems it would be fair to say humans have fallen into that trap yeah we're not as great as we think we are we fall into traps too yeah we make mistakes yes we do Daniel mentioned some ways that we can make use of these things like we can you know do animal calls or whatever are there are there like really good examples of ways humans are purposefully setting evolutionary traps yeah probably the real common one is literally using a pheromone traps

23:19do you guys know about these pheromone traps we use them for Japanese beetles exactly and so there are many pest insects that are crop pests and so on and one way to catch them and get them out of the system is to take advantage of the fact that males this is again males desperate to mate with females thing but for insects and for lots of species where the density of them is medium but maybe not that high one you know kind of a what it could be a problem is finding a mate and then in some species what males do is they go where they know the females are going to come to like if females are going to go to water to lay their eggs then the males can just hang out at the water like dragonflies do that but in other species like moths it's not so clear cut where you should you know where are the females you got to go find them and so the system that is evolved is

24:19females release just a little bit by our standards a little bit of basically their perfume a pheromone a chemical that basically says I'm a female and I'm ready to mate and here I am and so they release just you know I mean how much chemical could a moth release and not not a lot it's a moth and fruit flies do this also so a little puff comes out and the males find the females using that and when you think of just how much puff of perfume could have come out like we can't detect we don't detect it at all but even if we could it feels like maybe you could smell perfume from a potential mate from you know maybe 20 yards away wow but in fact they can smell it from a typical thing for a moth apparently is hundreds of meters and they actually have a world record of seven miles what that's insane how did they figure that out did they release a moth seven miles away and it found the mate or I think they they do actually have marked males and they actually experimentally release

25:26you know an appropriate amount of the stuff okay and you know so that's like if a female moth in central park in New York just put out a puff and now a male that's over on somewhere on Long Island you know in Brooklyn or Queens actually smelled it and not only do they smell it like I think there's no other system in nature that is as sensitive as their sensory organs for detecting that smell wow one molecule and their brains firing female but then they actually have to follow a path to the female so they have to actually do the sort of zigzagging and detecting and sort of recalibrating even what the wind is doing and so on and eventually find the female so we take advantage of that by just putting out a little bit of the pheromone probably even much more than one female moth would and males come in and you're doing that apparently to take care of Japanese beetle problems on your farm there yeah and they you know we accumulate them in a bit this giant bag and then we kill them but apparently you have to be sort of careful because you can

26:31make your yard a hot spot if you like release a bunch of the pheromone Japanese beetles from like many miles around towards your property or do you Kelly's place and now like if your bag gets full maybe you have more Japanese beetles than you would have had otherwise because they've all been attracted to you are like super hot pheromone spot so you need to be a little careful no this is great a mistake on top of a mistake so many layers metamistics yeah one of the things I love is about catching male moths on our property is that like the you know the females have antenna that just kind of like you know they stick up they're like little sticks or whatever but the males have super feathery antennae because they have all this extra surface area so that they can catch those those pheromone molecules when they're in the air and it's an easy way to tell the difference between the males and the females not a good point yeah okay so we are going to keep talking about mistakes when we get back from the break but we're going to transition to more subtle mistakes and so let's take a break

27:40I'm hosting a barbecue tomorrow and nothing's party ready the grills in the box the patio is a mess and I haven't even bought snacks that's when I post on airtasker local taskers handle the errands set up cooking and more go to airtasker.com or download the app airtasker get anything done what if your soda actually did something for you introducing skypot protein soda skypot protein soda has 10 grams of complete protein zero sugar and real delicious soda taste skypot protein soda reach for the sky get your skypot protein soda now at target rouse or go puff hey alright almost here are you ready just grabbing my shoes that's what you said 10 minutes ago I just wrapped the video call uploading this giant file on my tablet looking at my watch gopananas with the group chat and of course still lining up tonight's playlist on my phone all at once yep story of my life that's why I switched to demobile they have the fastest 5G network okay multi-tasker I see you honestly I never imagined I could do all this at once

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31:51and we are back and having Andy on the show has definitely not been a mistake and now we are moving to more subtle mistakes and so all right let's take a sort of broader view of mistakes obviously mating with a bottle when you meant to be mating with a you know real beetle partner is a mistake but would something like getting eaten by a predator count as a mistake and so Andy how do you think about the definition for mistakes yeah that is a great question because it seems obvious that getting killed by a predator is not a good thing for you and should be viewed as a mistake but the subtlety that you know behaviorally colleges use and thinking about it is it depends because there are just sort of layers of issues that could make it that this was still an outcome of you doing the best of a complex situation that you live in so a simple thing here would be just that you got to go out and find food it might be for that matter finding mates and then often

32:56there is what we refer to as a risk reward trade off where it's pretty common that where the food is is also where there's danger and that you need to actually balance these as almost all animals are in that situation and even the optimal balance does not mean that you don't take any risks you have to go out and find food and there are risks involved with that and so it could even be that even when you do the optimal balancing of these risks and rewards sometimes the risk does hit you you get killed but it was still the best you could do but in the hand it is an error if you actually you know were too risk taking you know so what we try to do in the field is figure out what is like the optimal level of balancing risk and rewards and you could actually get killed even doing the best that you could possibly do but you could also make a mistake and overdo it so for example if there are like lions at the water hole but you have to drink then you have to take the risk and try to

34:01drink when there aren't lions or whatever but sometimes you're going to get eaten and you're saying that taking that risk is not a mistake but taking it unnecessarily or being sloppy about it that would be a mistake. Exactly. And I think a later we put on top of that that also is part of how more sophisticated analyses of human behavior do that economists do is account for imperfect information that to actually even optimally balance what you should do would imply that you kind of know everything you need to know about what's going on like where is the predator where is the food and is that good food and you know and so on but there's a pretty good sense that that we don't have perfect information animals don't have perfect information and part of why you might make an error but it's still an understandable error is things are unpredictable. Often they're not totally unpredictable they're partially unpredictable and you're still doing the best you can in an unpredictable world like when you put an investment into whatever which could be financial

35:05or or for that matter a mate choice or buying a used car that you don't have perfect information you're not predicting the future because you know who can do that and so you might make mistakes and we still kind of call those mistakes but they're still obviously understandable mistakes. So how much do we know about how much information animals are taking in so like every once in a while we'll get a question from a listener that will be like you know are animals like robots where they're just sort of responding to stimulus without thinking about it too much is a salamander that's living in an environment and yes I picked that in particular is a salamander that's living in an environment like taking in information about the risk and like how much information do animals take in and what are they doing with it? Yeah this is a fascinating field because it's almost like the doctor do a little thing of trying to understand what an animal is thinking what does it know you know people have also mentioned like I don't actually know what you're thinking and what do you know

36:07even the thing of am I sure that you're an actual conscious thinking organism but for animals it's going to be a lot harder we we are not them we don't understand them that well but we can do various experiments where we often train them by having a certain set of information that we give them and then we often trick them by then changing the world in some way so it used to be red means where the food is and see how long it's taking to figure that out but then we change it to blue and various experiments of that sort can give us a sense of how do they think about the world and you know sometimes we figure out they don't know as much as you would think they might know but sometimes they're unbelievably smarter than we would think can you give an example of a moment where you were like wow I didn't expect this animal to be as smart as it ended up being yeah I think some of the classic stuff on that is even honey bees and their ability to find food and this is actually outside of my expertise so I won't know the example in any detail but their ability to

37:11find food using some combination of memory and navigation skills even when they're barriers like there's you know building in between is actually apparently much better than humans oh wow and the general idea there is that you know animals have evolved to do what they need to do and that it's still usually thought of as using relatively simple sensory and cognitive mechanisms but there are things that we are not evolved to do so well that other animals can do better than us and actually even like pigeons feeding on just little bits of food on the ground I don't know how if you've ever watched that or actually thrown out some bread for them but they can actually spot the food that's just kind of out there little tiny bits of crumbs better than we can huh so was there like an experiment where they threw out bread crumbs and they had people crawling around trying to get the crumbs and pigeons and the pigeons won well the cute thing is that

38:12scientists like to be more tech than that and so we actually trained pigeons to feed and we've done this with various animals on little bits of things on a video screen yeah and they got to peck on that and if they peck correctly they get real food and so what they do is they put little dots of things on backgrounds that actually are not that easy to see what's what but I'm pretty sure pigeons are better than humans at detecting stuff on a screen cool that's a reasonable simulation of food on the ground yeah and anybody who's had a cat knows that like cats are very good at understanding patterns I was hearing a story recently but a guy used to feed his cat dinner at the end of the day when he closes his laptop and the cat figured this out and just started closing the guy's laptop and expecting dinner I'm lucky my gigantic cat didn't figure that out he wasn't super smart but anyway so say you you are you know out in nature and you see an animal

39:13get eaten how do you start thinking about whether or not that was a mistake and what caused the mistake yeah what do you do so one of the questions from the listener was how do you even know an animal has made a mistake when you see a behavior happening yeah that's a great question you know what interesting thing is despite loads of work on predator prey interactions you know lions and whatever and uh pumas feeding on deer actually seeing the actual predation events even though out in the serengeti out in the open we can see it more easily but for lots of other animals we don't actually even see the predation event much at all like we know hawks are catching little birds and catching mice but there's actually apparently not much information on the actual event occurring so we don't know as much about that as as you would think and even these days we've got more and more animals wearing little devices that are kind of like our cell phone you know little GPS units and accelerometers

40:14so we're getting a better picture of the more detailed elements of what's really going on when there is a predation event but yeah when I see an animal get killed in one of my experiments uh I guess the first step we usually do is is actually think about and get enough data on these risk reward trade-offs but then there are other cases of where what we realize even as biologists is they have limited sensory systems that if the animal can't see very well at all and a predator that is fast and doesn't have much smell and isn't making any noise comes out of nowhere and kills them then we figure that animal didn't really make a mistake because it doesn't see very well it couldn't see that thing coming even though we could though it could have made a mistake in that it shouldn't have been out of its hiding place at that time of the day okay uh so we think more about this sort of there was this risk reward tradeoff it came out to feed and it overdid that maybe but uh part of

41:14the thing of where it just didn't have good sensory abilities is certainly part of what we think about yeah and more detailed analyses of insects have found that their eyes are often much smaller than our eyes and they're totally different they've got you know the zillions of little bits of eyes then all put together the image uh but I guess analyses have found that their vision is much worse than you would think what they see is a much blurrier picture and that even seeing something from a few feet away is not something that many of them can do very well the ones with little eyes little insects but they can see a shadow coming so they can see your hand coming to try to slap them but they're otherwise their vision's not very good so you wouldn't expect them to see stuff you know that a perfect animal would see can I ask a kind of a basic question which is it seems to me like the categorization of like this is a mistake this is not a mistake is a little bit subjective people argue about it whatever is it important that we get that boundary correct

42:15or is this just like what humans are curious about that you're excited about these kinds of behavior because they personally tickle you or is it like actually an important scientific decision what's a mistake and what isn't okay yeah no I I would say that actually there is no absolute consensus on is that a mistake and it's not actually even a topic that these animal behaviors are talking about a lot perhaps because it'd be hard to nail down and have me say no you're wrong this is a mistake and that's not a mistake you're mistaken about mistakes right exactly yeah but what we do have is just that clearly animals do get killed animals do end up you know just going in directions and going to places where they really probably shouldn't have done that and that it's actually a major source of thinking and insight into what the animals are really doing or plants for that matter that we build like simple models that say if they knew everything and they

43:18were perfect at balancing all that information this is what they would do but when we run the experiments that's actually what they do and the difference often that gives us a hint as to what are the you know mistakes but then we try to understand why did they do that and that often lets us figure out part of the story on oh well they didn't even have the sensory ability or know they had this other you know risk or trade off or speed accuracy trade off I was just wondering if this could help understand like teenagers and why they make the decisions they do yeah let's see I guess that's a pretty big one and I don't know if I had the answer for that my teenager when he was still a teenager did do stuff like didn't bother to go to school because he thought it'd be more fun to go just sit and read a book and at one point he uh well let me not go on and on about one teenager let's take another hypothetical teenager you know I see them for

44:19example riding bikes and they wear their helmet but they don't clip the helmet because apparently that's cool to ride a bike with the helmet unclipped and I just think like that feels like a mistake to me yeah but there must be some way in which their minds are like this is the optimal teenage behavior or either failure to be easy and update something yeah uh I don't think I have an immediate answer to why but not makes me think oh my god did I clip my helmet all this morning I isn't uh I feel like something that that has been hounded into me when I go to the uh middle school orientations is that at this age their brains are not fully developed yet and like they don't fully develop until they're and what is it 21 24 is when like the frontal lobe fully develops it's some age that seems way too late uh to me like it should have happened sooner so I wonder if like limited cognitive ability explains I don't some of that all right I would like to at least blame some of my youthful indiscretions fun uh on a brain that had not finished developing yet

45:25personally you know that's this interesting thing that of course all animals have got limitations on their cognitive you know just how much brain power do they have but uh you know the thing where we didn't develop enough brain power is not quite saying that that explains you know I think the fact that teenagers now do stuff that we think what the hell uh might have even been a clue to are their brains not even developed yet but the fact that parts of their brain are still developing I wonder whether or not they actually were still smarter when it actually made a difference hmm like hundreds of years ago when if you made a mistake you got killed or the family didn't get enough food because you didn't do what you were supposed to do that actually even though their brains were not as developed as they will be when they're 25 uh which you know many years ago was way past the point when it mattered what you do but maybe as a teenager nowadays it doesn't matter as much all around in some sort of fitness terms

46:29and that's a key part of this story so like the age the development finishes is slipping because they're less likely to die one way or another is that what you're arguing I think it's possible you don't actually need to have your brain develop fully to make good decisions that uh that's a connection we have seen we we sort of blame it on that but I think a lot of decisions that matter probably used to be done well even before their brains were developed that you know a two-year-old might not be able to figure out what to do yet but actually and this is totally out of my field of expertise so now I'm really intrigued to go look this up whether or not we have evidence that that you know 12-year-olds used to be pretty smart it sounds to me like you're saying that teenagers are kind of goofy at decision-making because they don't have real consequences and we protect them and so basically it's our fault if teenagers are being idiots. Yeah okay right

47:30and you know we shape the ways they are idiots but we we basically do kind of let them get it or maybe it's not we but just sort of nature and you know problems and actual things with major consequences yeah well that that that lands I think my kids don't experience probably nearly as many consequences as they ought to so I'm contributing to that problem but uh but let's go let's go ahead and take a break and when we come back we're going to talk about how different personality types tend to make different kinds of mistakes. Summer me let's host people outside more reality the patio furniture is still in the box the AC just started making a weird noise and the pool flamingo still needs to be inflated so I open airtasker post the task set my budget and pick a tasker to help suddenly the furniture is assembled the ACs fixed and the flamingos floating which means I am too go to airtasker.com or download the app

48:35airtasker get anything done what if your soda actually did something for you introducing Skypop protein soda Skypop protein soda has 10 grams of complete protein zero sugar and real delicious soda taste Skypop protein soda reach for the sky get your Skypop protein soda now at Target or King supers okay sis give me the scoop what have you been up to? Living my best life I've been traveling working even hiking more and things to team mobile I'm connected for all of it really I need details I mean with America's best network I can pretty much go anywhere even when I'm off grid I'm still connected by satellite that's cool plus I get unlimited texting and data brought so I'm all set for my trip to Greece I don't even need to do anything it'll just work when I get there that's it I gotta get to mobile I don't even get reception in my apartment this is why I'm mom's favorite so many reasons to join team mobile find yours at teammobile.com best mobile network in the US based on analysis but who clues speed test intelligence data first

49:38half of 2026 with compatible device and most outdoor areas in select countries where you can see the sky included with experience beyond or $10 a month auto-renews monthly cancel any time my speed data on solid plans not for extended international use coverage and other available in some areas see plan for details hey it's Kelly Rowland you may not know this but I have XM so I get how it can still your time but why let XM take over when you can talk to your doctor about epglyss epglyss lubricism ab lbkz a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe axima also called a topic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies epglyss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids don't use if you are allergic to epglyss allergic reactions can occur that can be severe eye problems can occur tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems you should not receive a live vaccine when treated with epglyss

50:38before starting epglyss tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection paid partnership with lily respect your time ask your doctor about epglyss and visit epglyss.com or call 1-800-LiliRX or 1-800-545-5979 looking for something new try fencing the Olympic and Paralympic sport that mixes speed strategy and fun it's like chess meets cardio quick feet quick decisions and a satisfying beep when you score a point kids teens and adults can start anytime no experience needed and many clubs have loner gear coaches teach fundamentals and safety from day one find a beginner class for your kids near you at try fencing dot org that's try fencing dot org seven box that's barely the delivery fee on an order of Dan Dan noodles but seven bucks is enough to get you out of the house and into something interesting adventurous because for seven scrawny bucks a month do more gets you at least one pair of tickets to something you'll be psyched to attend a concert comedy

51:42perhaps that new exhibit stuff you like and stuff you didn't know you did yet try it free for a month at do more stuff dot com slash free and do more this is the down lebertar show this is Dan lebertar and i've been doing this for more than two decades our show is contagious it's a little bit addictive it's uh in the most positive of ways it has a good amount of range from smart to silly and it's got a journalistic backbone Monday through friday i show up and talk about sports listen to the Dan lebertar show on the i heart radio app apple podcast or wherever it is that you get your podcasts okay and we're back and i ended up going to andy's lab because i was interested in this concept of animal personalities uh and that you know sort of set me on my life path and so we'd have to talk

52:46about animal personalities today of course and so andy what is what do we mean when we say animal personalities and like do fish have personalities uh huh okay uh turns out to be something that uh yeah my lab has studied quite a bit and kelly was studying uh fish personalities um and how they were possibly being manipulated by parasites and so that's kelly's entry point into an entire fascinating career the idea of what is a personality for most of us comes out of thinking about human personalities and for human personalities there's a whole sense of sort of emotions and feelings and things that we think might be not what other animals are feeling and thinking emotionally uh but the core idea there that uh the field of animal personalities is picked up on is just the idea that humans are each individual has some sort of consistency in who they are that each one of us could do things

53:46that our friends would think that's unexpected this is not who they are that they have a sort of a type and that different individuals have different types and so we apply that to other animals where the behaviors we look at in other animals is often not exactly what we look at in humans but it's sort of like you know how bolder they are how aggressive are they and that when we test any given individual animal and just see what it's up to uh we find that indeed some cats are you know more curious than others or more aggressive than others and dogs and it's gone to fish and insects and spiders and people have even speculated on whether or not plants have different personalities and how aggressively they kind of grow and uh even put out chemicals that try to harm other plants and so on. I love the idea of a plant that's like consistently kind of a jerk and is like missing lots of chemicals all the time. Yeah. And so why what what is the current like framework for thinking about why personalities exist at all like is it better to be consistent so people

54:51could be like well that's kind of weird that you did that or would it be better to like be able to adjust to every situation and respond perfectly. Yeah that actually has not been nailed down as to why be consistent so something to clarify is it's not just you know why are some bold and some are fearful let's say we kind of have a sense that that's partially genetic partially shaped by earlier experiences and that it is connected to something about your hormones and your brain and actually even some evidence that it's connected to your to your microbiome but this is the question of why even be consistent at all. Right and for that one quite a lot of literature says even though behavior in principle could go you know you could be more bold, less bold you could you know nothing in physics stops you from being totally different tomorrow from or even 10 seconds from now from what you were 10 seconds ago but if your behavior is connected often for sensible reasons to

55:56something else it is more stable maybe even somewhat permanent but more stable anyway that that kind of grounds your personality and the things that are more stable have lots of possibilities it could be just you know what condition are you you know how strong and vigorous and coordinated you are but it could be your information state you know what skills do you have that could be mental skills like you're a bold type because you've learned over time how to be bold well and so it makes sense for you to be bold so you continue to be bold so you get more practice of being bold you are bold and you stay bold versus you are the fearful type and being bold would be you'd be really bad so your skill set kind of locks you into a personality another idea is being consistent is part of the social world where it helps that when other individuals know who you are they could manipulate

56:57by realizing you're nice so I'm going to take advantage of that and that's a problem with being consistent but it could be an advantage where they know you are nice so they will be nice to you because they know you will be nice in return and a nice friendship develops that they can count on but that probably doesn't apply for lots of other animals that still do have these consistencies I mean are we suggesting here that there is like an ideal personality that having a range of personalities isn't sometimes better than having a single personality I mean clearly like diversity in thought and diversity in background is the benefit in many communities right yeah not like there is one perfect personality we should all be that person yeah so there's there's a fair bit of ongoing study there's a lot in humans so the human personality world of study is is quite large yeah and there is a lot of work on how the mix of personalities in a group can have various benefits though there are also studies on bad personalities on you know they literally sometimes

58:04use the term bad apples in your social group that can mess up the social dynamics so it's not like all personality variations a good idea to have in your group and you know we all know that and so people are also studying this with animals where we put together collections of more bold and less bold and see if the more bold are helpful in kind of exploring and the group can follow the leaders that there wouldn't be any leaders if everyone was fearful but the fearful ones are good at actually being more vigilant and ready so for predator attacks they're the first to respond and the group benefits both ways and so people have been studying those sorts of things in humans it's you know there's a lot of personality study and it does turn out that different personalities have different strengths and I think that's probably obvious there is enough of a literature to suggest that one of the personality axes in what's called the big five in humans is more closely related to successful careers and successful long-term happy marriages than other personality axes so I'm

59:13going to ask you after I tell you what the axes are what you think is the key to happiness and success in life avoiding chemistry that's the key all right what are the five axes okay the five axes are acronym to as ocean so the O is openness for sort of curious and exploratory and the C is conscientiousness being responsible and like on time and the E is extroversion versus introversion the A is agreeableness sort of being nice and for that matter trusting and the N is neuroticism where you are actually relatively easily stressed and you know maybe worry too much and so on so what do you think is the key axis I want it to be neuroticism because that would be good for me but sure I'm sure it's not you want to go first Daniel I guess I'm a guess openness that seems to me to be

1:00:14a crucial thing in marriages and friendships and maybe in professional relationships I don't know I was going to go with the O2 yeah so openness is not actually it's it's more sort of a curiosity and maybe not so much willingness to accept what your partner is saying as willingness to try out new things and stuff like that so openness I I'm pretty sure there's a literature on how that is often associated with creative highly successful creative people you know in the arts or in the sciences but actually the axis that boringly seems to be the best correlate is conscientiousness huh conscientious people kind of get things done in jobs and careers and actually you know none of this is like an absolute predictor yeah but are and you don't even need both people to be conscientious actually if one person if your partner is conscientious it helps apparently keep you happier that they actually are on time and responsible and do the dishes and so on I wonder if that's

1:01:15correlated with stress like one of you needs to remember that the taxes are due once a year and neither one of you remembers that then your both is going to be miserable all the time and so I had conscientiousness third on my list I thought maybe agreeable after like openness but anyway that that makes sense yeah and so in animals our main things are how bold are they at basically in this risk reward trade-off kind of willing to go out there and take risks to get the food or to get the mate but aggressiveness and we also study exploratory tendencies sort of willingness to just go out into places that we as far as our experiment goes we know they've never been there before but also sociability which is tendency to actually prefer to kind of hang out with other members of your species that's just sort of the opening line on it and there is a medium literature that each of these if you're too much on that scale it can be associated with making some even really bad

1:02:22mistakes let's talk about some of those can you give us some some famous examples you know the bold this is almost obvious that if you're too bold that this can get you killed and make it more likely that you get killed than otherwise and that that mainly comes up as something we can actually get the data on if in fact there are lots of danger being really bold in a safe world ends up being often a pretty good idea being too aggressive it has been associated with you know picking fights with bigger opponents and starting fights unnecessarily but also associated with actually with sexual coercion in other species like beating up the female when it just wasn't necessary and even drove her away when is it necessary sorry yeah yeah I mean I guess in some species actually you know suppressing the female physically is just part of oh my god how things work I don't know if you've seen ducks mating at a duck pond Daniel it's a biology it can be unpleasant to watch but yes nature's rough

1:03:28yeah and it turns out one of the species that I was studying water striders these bugs it's skate over the surface of the water there were males that were so geared up and aggressive about mating but about everything that they were busy attacking everything and trying to mate with it you know and that was actually quantifiably too aggressive because during the mating season they drove everybody else away so after a while nobody was even in the in their general area anymore they driven everyone away and they didn't get to mate because they were just too aggressive about it were these water striders that had been like collected from the wild or is this like the kind of thing you only see in the lab yeah yeah no this is these were yeah these were wild animals wow two wild apparently yeah or you know the example that I don't remember if you even overlap with this study but the example of excess sexual cannibalism I remember hearing a lot about this yep yeah so when I've mentioned that in you know in talks to even like the public

1:04:29people love those words excess sexual cannibalism it's a terrifying combination sexual cannibalism how much sexual cannibalism is the right amount of sexual cannibalism that is actually what the study was looking at is spiders so we popularly known that black widow females will kill the male sometimes and eat it this was a study in fishing spiders that are pretty big and kind of scary because they can run fast over land they can run over water they can go underwater and catch little fish underwater and they actually do that by actually erecting like little hairs that are waterproof on their on their body that ends up coating them with a layer of oxygen so when they go underwater they can breathe out of this little bubble they've created around themselves that's amazing and standard water for like half an hour or more wow but the females actually during the mating season will sit at the edge of some water like a little pool

1:05:34upon and males come in court and males will sort of poke at the water and it's kind of signal by sending little waves over there that I'm a male and please don't attack me but in fact females basically have the choice that if they think this male is good enough they might let him mate and if he's below the bar then might as well kill him and eat him and get a good meal out of it sure and males are very careful in their courtship but in fact sometimes obviously sometimes they just get driven away the female attacks and the male runs away but other times he gets caught and eaten and what the study documented so it's not all bad doing it it's you saying here's my mate choice you're not good enough so I'm going to kill you and eat you instead but in this species the study found that a measurable proportion of the females were so geared up and set the bar so high apparently they didn't mate with anybody and so they didn't actually fertilize their eggs and they ended up with zero fitness and that was reasonable to call that excess sexual

1:06:38cannibalism instead they drove away or killed an ate every male that they met that's yeah I do remember hearing about that was Chad with Johnson right I think he was right before me yeah yeah I remember thinking that was a crazy study and we we end up we get a lot of questions about evolution and why we see certain behaviors and so why why why can why does that show up why is that a thing that exists when clearly it's a bad choice for the females to eat every partner who they come across yeah what what studies found was the same females that are too geared up to sexually cannibalize at the bar too high are also females that are just generally more aggressive okay so they actually did get more food grew bigger made more eggs and how all these benefits of being the aggressive type they were also relatively bold that after we scare them into hiding they came out more quickly so they were generally that type and there were many advantages of being that type as a spider but they made this mistake by on the hand probably most of them very aggressive female

1:07:45fishing spiders did find because they did meet somebody who was above the bar and these didn't know that it turns out all the males that I meet are not good enough and I probably should have made it with the last one but I didn't know that was the last one I'll ever see and you know the way I often put it is there are plenty of people who have set a high bar and are not currently paired up with anybody and maybe even kind of lonely and they set the bar too high and the main difference between them and the spiders is they probably didn't tend to actually kill and eat so you know the partners that they rejected yeah one there's also probably a lot of people out there who have rejected all their partners and they're super happy being on their own yeah I know that's fair yeah just a different environment yeah I guess I didn't we didn't check whether or not any of those spiders were actually kind of happy after they had sat there with that they had absolutely no regrets afterwards they were like this this was all the right choice for me yeah yeah the question

1:08:46of what can we tell if an animal is happy is actually a pretty interesting question that I don't have a clear expertise on but that's the animal welfare world is trying to figure out our animals you know unhappy are they you know just not even like in health terms unhealthy they're just are they just kind of like bored for that matter yeah pacing back and forth and not enjoying their lives and yeah yeah yeah so we also had this question of do animals have free will and you know I think Daniel and I will philosophically argue even if humans have free will and if physics has anything to say about that and so I don't think there is an answer but at the end of the day you know philosophically what what do you think do do non-human animals have free will yeah I'll probably put it as it's it's as complicated we might think it's less complicated they're just little you know automatons that you poke them in this way and they'll do that and the simplest animals

1:09:48we've probably done enough work on their normal biology that it might be as moments as simple as you poke them in this way and they do that but lots of other animals have enough complexity in their overall system that they are quite flexible in what they're doing and a much more just sort of flexible and context dependent on I'm going to do this when you poke me but it depends on this this that and I don't know like a bazillion other things that even some of these insects are actually pretty you know pretty far along in that way and so if we think that the fact that we are so context dependent that there are many things that seem to affect how we do things to the point where it's so complicated that somewhere in there maybe we're not at all like poke me and I'll do this that we actually have some actually philosophically I mean I'm backing myself into a corner of saying that you know when we are that complicated enough in context

1:10:50dependencies that we can't even figure out what the real context dependency is like there's too many interacting factors that somewhere in there emerges the possibility that we even have free will and that other animals do have quite a lot of that already and that it's not out of the range that they also have something in there that's free will they certainly do a lot of stuff that seems to be just kind of hanging around not focused on I am looking for food get out of my way that they do a lot of other wandering around all right we have had an hour of amazing conversation about mistakes and so that is that is the end of the show for us and Andy it was so great having you on the show thank you I hopefully will be able to have you come back on the show again I got to say it was really fun asking you why animals have animal personality and then remembering that you asked me that at my master's defense and I totally blew it and it was fun to get to ask you but you got the answer right and so I guess I guess it was a different experience for you than it was for me yeah

1:11:51Andy it's been a pleasure thank you very much thanks for being on the show okay thanks much hey everyone thanks for the thorough answer to my question the idea of evolutionary traps is an interesting concept so I am familiar with the idea of how humans are not really prepared for the modern food environment so I really enjoyed that aspect I also like the segment on how even animals can be doing a risk reward assessment and sometimes the error is just taking on too much risk there's a great episode I enjoyed listening thanks again thanks everybody for listening please go and do us a favor and rate at the show on whatever podcast app you're using it really helps people find us Daniel and Kelly's extraordinary universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman he really is a wizard you can also find us online on blue sky Instagram and XDNK universe come engage with us you can email us at questions at Daniel and Kelly dot org we really do want to hear from you and you can find our website www.Daniel and Kelly dot org

1:12:58where you'll also find the invitation to join our discord where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe and we also have the most amazing moderators this is an iHeart podcast thanks for joining us one last thing before you go you know that feeling when feedback notes and data are coming in from every direction chat GPT work can make sense of it all turning scattered inputs into ready to review work with your permission work in chat GPT can gather context from apps and files summarize incoming messages rebuild decks and help finalize high quality documents for your team or clients stay in control as you move from a goal to polished work faster with chat GPT work download the chat GPT desktop app today and take on your most ambitious work I decided to do some cleaning this weekend step one open the closet step two immediately regret opening the closet behind the coats wedding gifts we still haven't sorted are wedding was three years ago so I posted a task on airtasker a tasker organized the closet

1:14:05tackled the garage in the even hand wrote the thank you notes post your task set your budget and choose the tasker who's right for you go to airtasker.com or download the app airtasker get anything done what if your soda actually did something for you introducing skypot protein soda with 10 grams of complete protein zero sugar and 45 calories skypot protein soda offers four delicious flavors with big taste and real benefits light refreshing and ready for wherever your day takes you it's anytime protein that helps you reach higher skypot protein soda reach for the sky get your skypot protein soda now at target or king supers never wanted to try an Olympic in paralympic sport try fencing it's fast competitive and even offered at the NCA level find a beginner class near you at try fencing dot org that's try fencing dot org hey it's Kelly rolling you may not know this but I have exama so I get how it can still your time

1:15:11but why let exama take over when you can talk to your doctor about epglyse epglyse lubricism app lbkz a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe axima also called a topic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies epglyse can be used with or without topical corticosteroids don't use if you are allergic to epglyse allergic reactions can occur that can be severe eye problems can occur tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems you should not receive a live vaccine when treated with epglyse before starting epglyse tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection paid partnership with lily respect your time ask your doctor about epglyse and visit epglyse.com or call 1-800-LilyRx or 1-800-545-5979 be honest you don't feel as interesting as you used to maybe not as much fun or adventurous remember when you actually went out did stuff a do more subscription brings concerts

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