Democracy Now! Wednesday, September 30, 2026

0:00From Berlin, Germany and New York, this is democracy now. The message was unmistakable. If your speech challenges those in power or exposes uncomfortable truth about Palestine, you can be singled out, punished, and made an example and made into a warning for everyone else. As the Trump administration continues to try to deport Mahmoud Khalil, the Columbia University student protest leader and Palestinian activist is refusing to stay silent. He has just published a remarkable memoir about his

1:02life and 104 days he was held in an ice jail. The book is titled No When to Stand On. Notes from Detention. Then we look at the state of international law as the Trump administration escalates its attack on the international criminal court. The United States is equally opposed to the out of control institution known as the International Criminal Court. We will never allow U.S. service members or anyone else to be investigated or given show trials by an anti-American tribunal with no jurisdiction over us. We will speak to the German human rights lawyer of Oufgang Khala about the International Criminal Court, the 80th anniversary of the end of the Nuremberg trials, and the 1961 assassination of Patrice Lamumba, the first Prime Minister of

2:03the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Oufgang Khala is representing Lamumba's family. They've spent years trying to seek justice from Belgium, all that and more coming out. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org the war and peace report. I'm Amy Goodman today broadcasting from Berlin, Germany. The Pentagon said Wednesday it had finished pulling all U.S. forces out of Iraq. The final troops departed from an airbase in northern Iraq under an agreement between the Iraqi and U.S. governments. U.S. forces first invaded Iraq in 2003 to overthrow Saddam Hussein and left in 2011. Before returning to Iraq in 2014 to fight the Islamic State group which had seized much of Iraq,

3:06the withdrawal comes amidst the ongoing U.S. and Israeli war on Iran, which has spilled into Iraq through clashes between U.S. forces and Iran-backed militias. Some Baghdad residents welcome withdrawal of U.S.-led coalition forces from Iraq. This is a local resident. Our feeling? It fills our heart with joy and I feel on the day of the U.S. forces withdrawal is like I am born again and I am 70 years old. The withdrawal of American forces is the withdrawal of the occupier. We should invest, invest to let militias as well, surrender their weapons to the government. There's nothing left. Surrender your weapons to the government and let the government be the one responsible to protect me and you on the ground, sky and water. In Iran, the Trial has hit yet another record low trading at more than two and a half million to the dollar

4:09less than a month after its previous record low as the U.S.-Israeli war in Iran continues to take a heavy toll on the economy. This comes as the Trump administration's imposed new sanctions on 10 people and companies in China, Hong Kong and Pakistan that it claims helped Iran acquire weapons. Meanwhile, the Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Araqqi received U.S. feedback via Cuttery mediators in Doha, Tuesday on a seven-day plan to reopen the straight of Hormuz. Iran had made the proposal last week which President Trump rejected leading Cutter to step in and mediate. In the occupied West Bank, more than 100 Israeli settlers rioted overnight Monday in the village of Jaloud, stopping a displaced Palestinian family from going back to their home. Settlers had taken over two houses belonging to the Tubasi family weeks earlier.

5:11Israel's high court had ordered Israeli forces earlier this month to make sure the family could return. But roughly 10 minutes after soldiers escorted the family to their home, the settlers swarmed in according to witnesses. The settlers torched the houses, blocked roads, and threw rocks at Israeli officers and Palestinians. This is what El Tubasi, who is forced to flee his home due to Israeli settler attacks. When we arrived the houses were damaged beyond description. They damaged everything. The doors, the tiles were removed, the stairs were removed, they smashed the bathrooms, doors, and windows. They left nothing. Everything was broken and removed. In Gaza, Israel killed a senior Hamas commander, Isadin Al-Bike in an air strike. Palestinian officials say the Israeli strike hit a residential apartment building in Gaza City.

6:12A second person died from wounds after the attack, according to Gaza health officials. Later on Tuesday, an Israeli air strike near a medical clinic in the Jabalya refugee camp killed one person. This is a resident of the refugee camp. The camp is full of residents. Of course, the residents are not a small number, and the houses in the camp are weak. They cannot withstand strikes like these. As you can see, no house avoided damage from this bombing. In a six to three ruling, the conservative majority in the US Supreme Court are allowing the Trump administration to continue swiftly deporting immigrants to third countries they have no ties to. Justice Isonya Sotamayor, Elena Kagan and Katanji Brown Jackson argued to keep a lower court order in place that blocked the policy forcing Trump officials to cancel at least

7:14one deportation flight with about 70 immigrants bound to third countries. During Trump's second term and estimated 25,000 immigrants have been deported from the US to third countries where many have faced torture, arbitrary detention, persecution and other dangerous conditions. The Supreme Court is expected to hear arguments in the case in December, which will lead to a final ruling. Among the countries immigrants have been sent to are Liberia, Equatorial Guinea, Honduras, and the Central African Republic under secretive third country agreements with the Trump administration. California's banning local state and federal law enforcement agents from using gloves that can release painful electric shocks to people in custody. The ban will take effect next year and remain

8:14in place until 2030. In August, it was reported ICE, immigration and customs enforcement would spend up to $20 million to purchase thousands of these gloves. The devices are manufactured by compliant technologies LLC based in Lexington, Kentucky. It has been used in recent years by police departments and jails. This comes as ICE is preparing to hire an additional 5,000 new employees by the end of this year. The latest hiring surge was reported by the New York Times and comes after ICE quietly fired a wave of recent hires who were quickly employed by the agency last year without proper vetting or training amidst Trump's mass deportation campaign. In Texas, the Trump administrations filed federal criminal charges against Wilbert Raphael Garcis-Petas, the 28-year-old

9:15Venezuelan asylum seeker who was shot by an ICE agent in Austin earlier this month while making deliveries for DoorDash. Federal prosecutors are accusing Garcis-Petas of resisting and assaulting a federal officer. The ICE agent who shot Garcis-Petas was not wearing a body camera. His attorney, Kate Lincoln Goldfinch had a schedule call with him Tuesday morning from ICE detention when she heard even taken to a federal courthouse in Austin. She posted this statement on social media. We were able to get to the courthouse and I was able to see Wilbert. He was clearly very emotionally distraught and in so much pain. He was dizzy, he was lightheaded, he was whincing. He couldn't believe that this was happening to him. Everything that has happened to him, this is the ninth day since he's been shot and he still has a bullet inside his body. Clergy leaders of different.

10:22Clergy leaders of different faiths in California have begun an eight day 96 mile pilgrimage demanding the shutdown of ICE jails. The March started Tuesday from the troubled Adelanto ICE jail in the Mojave Desert and is headed to Los Angeles. This is Michelle Arkin with the group No Camps California. This is about bringing awareness and helping people understand the inhumane conditions that exist in this facility here where they have been helping people, many of them illegally and and they have been exposed to abuse and lack of medical care and go without any water. Former special counsel Jack Smith faced off with Republican senators Tuesday at a 10th Senate Judiciary Committee hearing defending the two prosecutions he brought against President Trump for attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Smith said his team followed

11:27standard practice and dismissed claims he was politically motivated. This is former special counsel Jack Smith on Tuesday. I stand by my decisions as special counsel including my decision to bring charges against President Trump. I made those decisions without regard to President Trump's political association activities beliefs or candidacy in the 2024 presidential election. In Spain the government's issued a ban on all evictions until 2030 as well as an automatic renewal of rental contracts. The proposal still needs to be approved by the Spanish Parliament where the Prime Minister, Pedro Sanchez's coalition doesn't hold a majority. This comes after mass protests over Spain's housing crisis erupt in the wake of the eviction of 87-year-old Madrid pensioner, Madi Common. According to her lawyer she will now be returning home where she's lived for

12:3170 years, nearly her entire lifetime. Protesters had set up a camp of more than 110th in Madrid's Puerto del Sol Square and tens of thousands have taken to the streets nationwide. This is a protestor. We all have a right to a home. Now it could happen to a person like Mara Carmen, but later on it could happen to you. They can kick you out of your house and you must defend it because it is a right. President Donald Trump and the world's wealthiest tech executives Tuesday signed a set of voluntary safety standards for artificial intelligence. Trump hosted several members of his cabinet and Congress as well as SpaceX Elon Musk, Metas Mark Zuckerberg, Anthropics Daria Amade, Envides Jensen Huang, OpenAI's Greg Brockman, Google's Sunderpachai, and others in the industry for an event at the White House. President Trump has also renamed

13:37artificial intelligence superintelligence and launched a new AI-powered government chatbot named America.gov where people can access federal government sources. The AI tools so far sites facts that contradict Trump's allegations of election fraud and other false claims made by his administration. This comes as Trump has repeatedly rejected calls to regulate AI, calling warnings about the threat of superintelligent machines, a hoax. Meanwhile, in California, protesters gathered outside OpenAI's annual Dev Day conference in San Francisco Tuesday.

14:46And the 2026 right livelihood awards were announced on Wednesday in Stockholm, Sweden. And the award is widely known as the alternative Nobel Prize. The winners include Juleila Haida, a human rights lawyer who defends some of Pakistan's most vulnerable communities. The rural women's assembly for organizing rural women across South Africa. The Georgian Young Lawyers Association for Building and Safe Guarding Democracy in the Nation of Georgia. And AI researcher Timnit Gibru, who is the founder of the Distributed AI Research Institute. Gibru spoke to democracy now about how artificial intelligence is entrenching societal biases and inequality. And so we warned about also people interacting with these kinds of texts,

15:48output by these kinds of systems, attributing a mind behind whatever text they're seeing. And so, you know, right now, these chatbots like Claude or ChatGPT are designed to make you believe that there's some sort of superhuman brain behind whatever is outputting these texts. And that's usually dangerous. And even though we weren't speaking about chatbots back then, we were already talking about the tendency of people to attribute a mind behind these texts. And so, which means that, you know, they can be deceived into believing that there's something that the something more than a model outputting text. And the final thing we warned about was what is the cost of pursuing this singular direction in terms of research and resources? What is the cost of shutting out all other possible futures, all other ways of building machine learning systems, which is a subspecialty of artificial intelligence, or any other kind

16:52of paradigm, because it seemed like the whole field was only investing in this singular direction of building larger and larger models that are guzzling all of the data and is stealing so many people's works and based on exploited labor and killing the environment. I want people to understand that tech does not have to be the way it is right now, but I always loved math and physics. And I also thought it was a refuge from the messy world of war, which is what made me leave Ethiopian politics. But I later learned that that's not true. Actually, the war in politics that I left is what drives the world of math and science and technology as well. And if we don't understand that, we'll continue to harm our own people and as engineers and scientists, build terrible and harmful products instead of ones that actually support our communities. That was Timnit Gibru, the founder of the Distributed AI Research Institute. She is a recipient of the

18:002026 Right-Lively Hood Award announced today in Stockholm, Sweden. And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. Coming up, Mahmoud Khalil has just published a memoir. It's called No Land to Stand On. Notes from Detention. He'll join us live. Stay with us.

20:18Oh, I've never heard of God. That the future won't be different to you. So, I've only heard of God. I've only asked God, popularized by Mercedes-Sosa, and performed by the Chilean Palestinian American musician and producer Nicholas Jar, in our Democracy Now Studios in New York. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org.org.org. Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman in Berlin, Germany. And I'm Angelique Kometh here in New York. Welcome to our listeners and viewers around the country and across the world. No land to stand on. Notes from Detention. That's the title of a searing new memoir by the first pro-Palestinian campus protester to be jailed by the Trump administration. Columbia University graduate and Palestinian student protest leader Mahmoud Khalil.

21:19On March 8th, 2025, Mahmoud was detained by plainclothes police officers who did not identify themselves in the lobby of his apartment building in Columbia University housing. His wife, Nur Abdallah, who was eight months pregnant at the time, filmed this video of his arrest as Mahmoud was being taken away. Her voice is heard in the clip. Can you please specify what agency is taking him please? Excuse me, they're nobody that they're not talking to me. I don't know. Excuse me, the lawyer would like to speak to somebody. Oh my god, they're doing running away from me. That was March 8th, 2025. Mahmoud was taken into immigration detention, ultimately transported more than 1300 miles away to Louisiana. He spent over 100 days in jail and was denied permission to

22:20attend the birth of his first child, Dean. He could only listen on the phone. Mahmoud Khalil's new memoir also looks beyond his own case, recounting the people he met behind bars, including immigrants who lived in the United States for years, and parents who were separated from their children and what their stories taught him about the broader human cost of the US immigration crackdown. Mahmoud Khalil was released in June of last year and spoke outside the detention facility, the ice jail in Gina, Louisiana. No one is illegal, no humanism. That's the message. The message is just as we prevail. No matter what this administration may try to portray. More than a year after Mahmoud Khalil's release, the Trump administration is still seeking to

23:21deport Khalil. The Board of Immigration Appeals has approved his removal, and this week the Board denied Khalil's request to end his removal proceedings. His lawyers are pursuing further appeals, including seeking review by the Supreme Court. In his new memoir, Khalil takes on not only the Trump administration, but also Columbia University, which he sued earlier this month alleging it failed to protect pro-Palestinian students, instead retaliating against them when they reported harassment. Khalil writes it as new memoir, quote, rather than protecting its doc students, Columbia leaned into the intimidation campaign. In his memoir, Khalil describes the moment just days after his arrest when he came to see himself, not simply as an individual facing deportation, but as a test case. He writes about his decision to take on the Trump administration and fight for his freedom, saying, quote, my case was the blueprint they wanted to set, and the one we had to tear up.

24:24Well, for more, we're joined now by Mahmoud Khalil to discuss his new memoir, No Land to Stand On Notes from Detention. It was just release this week. Mahmoud, thanks so much for being with us. Can you start off by talking about the title? No land to stand on. What does that mean to you? Thank you so much, Amy, for having me. No land to stand on is really, to me, is a realization that this country that promised me at least safety and stability was not there, and also talks about my experience. I was born and raised in Palestinian refugee camp in Syria, and then I had to flee the country at the age of 18 to Lebanon, and then I had also to leave Lebanon to come here to this country, only to be surprised that the promise that I was seeking was not there.

25:24So it was really a realization, but also it's my family story where they are also now scattered around the world with no place to go back to or really no land to stand on. Mahmoud, you're right in your memoir, quote, today Palestine is the exception to those rights the world claims as universal. In reality, it is awarding. The rights we are denied were never only hours to lose. Can you talk about what you mean by that? Absolutely. You know, Palestinians are at the Canary and the coal mine. They start everything, the test case with Palestinians. For example, this deportation campaign, the term administration deportation campaign, started with me as a Palestinian to chill the speech of others. It's not only chilling the speech of those speaking out for Palestine, but really anyone who's speaking out against this administration in essence. You know, when they started with me, they went right after

26:28to the universities threatening them with federal funding, but also with journalists, you know, going after non-profit and organizations that do anything that this administration deemed to be a threat to them. So that's what I feel like when we talk about Palestine, it is really the warning. And what happened now is a result of so many years of the humanization against Palestinians, whether in the media or even in the political institutions or any institution in this country, that what made my targeting possible. You know, like now 18 months after my arrest, this administration has never charged me with any crime or even presented any evidence that I committed any crimes yet. They are able to get away with this because I'm Palestinian because, you know, a lot of politicians, whether they are Democrats, whether they are Republicans, they don't care about Palestinians. So this country, when it comes to Palestine, it's really a one-party system

27:31that everyone is just against Palestinians. Would you write, I am Palestinian, that is not a complication of the story, it is the story, everything else follows from it. And this remarkable memoir, it's not just a, you know, your experiences, it's an indictment of the entire system of American democracy and you compare the failures of American democracy to growing up under the Assad regime in Syria. Exactly because what happened to me, you know, I fled forced disappearance and arbitrary detention in Syria, only to be surprised that this happens to me here in a country that's supposedly champions of human rights, liberty and justice, rule of law. So I wrote this book really to raise the alarm, you know, what's happening behind eyes detention walls is a stain on the US consciousness. So is the Palestine exception, the fact or the idea that free speech,

28:31rule of law and basic dignities are denied to Palestinians? And Mahmoud Khalil, if you can share your experience growing up in Syria, you were in fact shot, you lost your friends, explain what happened and how you ended up coming to the United States. Absolutely, you know, in 2011 when the Syrian people revolted against Assad's regime and Egyptians and Tunisians as well that upspring, Palestinians filled also the urge and that earned to their, to their homeland. So we decided to march to Palestine to the borders and there was one of thousands of Palestinians who wanted to march back to Palestine and while, you know, we peacefully marched to Palestine, it was shot by Israeli soldiers while trying to cross the border. And then, you know, when also in Syria, I was helping out with

29:37relief and also I couldn't just stay silent while my Syrian neighbors were being killed and kidnapped by Assad's regime. So we started to organize as well to help out our Syrian brothers and sisters. And that's when, you know, Assad cracked down on any sort of civil organizing and kidnapped two of my friends in on January 9, 2013 and in a day I had to leave the country to flee to Lebanon. So I only had that one day really to flee the country to Lebanon. And then Lebanon I lived, you know, in Shatira camp, one of the largest Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon where the situation was also so so so bad and and and there. But I got to teach myself English they're getting to school and eventually get get work in Lebanon. And that's how sort of like my journey from Syria to Lebanon

30:38and eventually to to the United States. But my story is only one one story for the Palestinian story really how, you know, it's all a result or a consequence of the in 1948 that we had to go through all of this, you know, my grandparents had to live in tents. They had to upgrade it to mud houses and my father was born into into a tent. So and then when we built houses, you know, the Syrian revolution happened and my family had to leave everything behind and leave. Mahmoud, you were a green card holder and you write about how, you know, for many immigrants, the green card is the promise and the finish line and yet you were detained, you know, all these months later as you're still fighting this case in the courts, you know, give us an update on what's happening with your case and why you believe you were chosen to have, you know, to be detained, why you're going through all of this. Yeah. So, you know, this case or this fight is not only

31:44about whether I get to stay in this country. It is really about whether anyone in this country get to speak out for Palestine against this administration and not punished for it. Right now the Trump administration is really putting the full weight of the Justice Department to deport me. They're trying to through the immigration system, as you've mentioned in the new introduction, the immigration board of appeals, which is fully controlled by the Trump administration, refused to open or reopen my case because, you know, New York Times reported that they're aware a lot of, I would say like a lot of corruption really, like in my case where a judge was appointed to look into my case and that judge was the chief judge, but also over many other individuals also intervened to make sure that there is an assertion outcome in my case. So, we know that we wouldn't get justice

32:51from the immigration kangaroo courts in this country. That's why we're turning into the federal court, but also they are the Trump administration is blocking us from seeking neutral judge, or a federal judge, article three judge from there. So, they are claiming that we should first go to the immigration court and once it's done, we can go to a federal court in Louisiana, which is known to be one of the most right wing or, you know, favorable to this administration in particular. And for that, we're going to the Supreme Court. We hope that next month or this month, and then I think the FOC door, but we are petitioning the Supreme Court to take my case, because, you know, our ask is very simple, that no federal agent or no government should have the power to

33:55detain anyone over constitutional claims or over the freedom of speech. So, it's very simple. And if you could remind me of the last question, I know there was a part of the question. You know, you write about how, you know, there was a moment in detention when you realize your detention wasn't arbitrary or a mistake or accidental, and, you know, the president himself was tweeting about you. Exactly. I think that was the moment, you know, when the first couple of days in detention, it felt to me that this was a mistake, that there's no way they would come after me. I was at permanent resident, I'm still a permanent resident, never commented that crime, but when I saw that the president was actually tweeting about me and the language of that tweet or even of the officials, it seemed to me that this was way bigger than than me, that was a very calculated

34:56measure or a very calculated, I would say, targeting to chill the speech of others. They wanted someone who they can make an example out of so that the hundreds and millions of American citizens and not American citizens would fear speaking out against the US support to Israel. So, that was the point where I was like, you know, to me, it's, it's, it's, it's, this is way bigger than just like me, my ability to stay in this country. It is really about the ability of so many people to speak for Palestine. We're talking to Makmoud Khalil. His book is just out this week. It's called No Land to Stand On, Notes from Detention. Makmoud, I want to go back to that day that you were detained. It was actually International Women's Day, March 8, 2025, just before your detention. You wrote to

35:56Columbia's interim president at the time, Katrina Armstrong, appealing directly to her and to the university for protection. You wrote, quote, interim president Armstrong, since yesterday, I've been subject to a vicious, coordinated and dehumanizing doxing campaign. They falsely labeled me a security threat and called for my deportation. Their attacks have incited a wave of hate, including calls for my deportation and death threats. I have outlined the wider context below. Yet Columbia has not provided any meaningful supporter resources and response to this escalating threat. I haven't been able to sleep, fearing that ice or a dangerous individual might come to my home. I urgently need legal support and I urge you to intervene and provide the necessary protections to prevent further harm. Again, that letter on the day that you ultimately were detained just

37:03before. You were then held by ice for 104 days. And earlier this month, you filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against Columbia University, accusing the school of failing to protect you and other pro-Palestine student activists from harassment. You've denounced Columbia's, quote, deliberate indifference and discrimination named intimidating Palestinian students. Can you explain exactly what this lawsuit is about? You know, Amy, Columbia laid the groundwork for my targeting by the Trump administration by the not only indifference to our pleas, but also for participating in verifying us as a movement. As you've mentioned, Columbia did not reply or answer any of my emails. Instead, Columbia fueled a very dangerous rhetoric against Palestinian students

38:04and their allies on campus. They harbored these actors who smeared and docks me and other Palestinian students as well. And in fact, just recently, they settled with some of these students and giving them money for harming us. And I was very shocked when I joined Columbia by the level of anti-Palestinian bigotry that's institutionalized within every department in that school. You know, I was in the School of International and Public Affairs SEPA and its dean, Dean Yari Milo, was also very indifferent to Palestinian concerns and her only really concerned was how to protect Israel, how to do more events and more events about Israel. Like a day after October 7th, she immediately called for a webinar inviting Hillary Clinton to assess Israel's next steps. And these next steps,

39:08of course, included the killing and genociding of Palestinian people. So Columbia was not only an idol actor in this or that they did not do anything. They in fact helped fuel this campaign against me. And then one of our cases or the cases of these students who were detained by the Trump administration, the Rubio determination, in fact, codes what Columbia said about the protests. What falsely said about this protest because the ideologues on the board of trustees, it was more important for them to protect Israel than actually protecting freedom of speech, than protecting academic freedom, then protecting the students. You know, Columbia missed an opportunity to be an institution that would respect the human rights law, that would respect just basic dignities and would be a place to have a difficult conversation. Instead, it chose to surveil its students to bring the police more than four times to brutalize its own students,

40:12expel and suspend over 100 students. Just imagine 100 students, over 100 students, between the ages of 17 and 20, who's their future now in limbo just because they they dared to protest their genocide. So that's why I'm bringing this this law so because no student, regardless of their background, regardless whether they were Palestinians or anything, no students should go through the hell that Columbia put us through over the past three years. Mahmoud Uriight had Columbia possess the power to deport me. I have little doubt it would have done so. I want to ask you about another lawsuit you filed in July, a federal lawsuit against several top Trump administration officials, two pro-Israel groups, and a conservative think-tack accused of conspiring to suppress your criticism of Israel and constitutional rights to free speech. Can you talk about this lawsuit? So, you know, the White House, when they arrested me, they touted about a blueprint. They said this

41:15arrest would be a blueprint to go after everyone who speaks for Palestine. And that blueprint is called Esther, the Esther Project. It's a document or a policy document produced by the Heritage Foundation. And then that it was produced in 2024. And what they said that to to implement this project, we need an administration that's favorable to us that would work with us. And as part of that project was detaining and deporting international students to chill the speech of other students who dare to speak out about Palestine. So we're sewing now government officials also in their personal capacity because that's we're sewing them under the KKK Act. It's a civil rights act that was, you know, brought during the reconstruction era to really, you know, after after the abolition of slavery and to protect the right of black Americans. This law was brought because

42:18there were actors conspiring together to deprive black people from their from from their rights. So we're bringing this lawsuit under under that law. And you know, a judge in Massachusetts, a Reagan appointee confirmed what we are alleging right now, which is that government officials conspired with themselves to deprive these non-citizen students so they can to make an example out of them. And and that that judge, you know, like in in his proceedings that I've never seen such a flagrant, just like assault on the constitution or assault on on the just the rule of law. So and that I'm sewing because I'm seeking accountability. I'm sewing because no one should go through this whether you know, if they were able to deport a Palestinian for his views, they would be able to deport anyone else for their views, whether this administration or any any other

43:22administration. Mahmoud Khalil, you were in that Gina Ice jail for 104 days during which time your son Dean was born. In your audiobook, you do not read that chapter. You have someone else read it. And I'm wondering if you can talk about why and talk about what that meant. And you tell the story not only of your of missing your own baby's birth, but of other people in that jail. Another man in the same situation. And that's also part of the power of this book, the other stories that you tell. Mahmoud. You know, missing the birth of my my child of of Dean was one of the most difficult times and and detention. And it's something I really, you know, it brings so many

44:26emotions to me that I was stripped that very, I would say, divine moment like to be with with my wife, nor at at the moment where every couple like wish to be together. And as you've mentioned, this is not only about me. This this book is about a story of so many incredible men, fathers and workers who came here seeking safety and a better future only to be snatched off the street. You know, I write about Alexander, the young man who was begging for safety in this country, only to be deported, only to be denied the the ability to stay in safety here. And then I learned a few, a few months later that he was killed when deported to Honduras. I talk about the, you know, my my fellow inmates who also were not able to see their families. You know, I would go when I would go to the visitation room in Gina, Louisiana, that the detention center housed over

45:281200 detainees. But when I go to the visitation room, it's empty because their families were frightened to come and visit them because it was in the middle of nowhere that it's in the middle of of of of a swam. So their families would feel like I had to tell someone that your mom shouldn't come visit you because she's also undocumented. So just imagine that you have to tell that to an 18-year old that your mother shouldn't visit you because they may arrest her. So that was the the terror, the cruelty in in these in these detention centers. And they were designed also like to make people give up immediately. So the conditions, the bad conditions in these detention centers, like the constant light, the low temperature, the bad food. It's all designed so that you give up your case and sign your deportation orders and order immediately because if you want to fight, you need to be able to stay in that detention center for minimum of six months, but that could go

46:33like a few a few years. You know, in only 100 and four days I lost over 15 pounds. So imagine like staying for a year there. Mahmoud Khalil, we want to thank you so much for being with us author of the new memoir No Land to Stand On. Notes from detention or safety as you travel the country talking about your book. You'll be in Somerville, Massachusetts tonight. You're going to be at Seattle Town Hall and all over the country. Coming up German human rights lawyer Wolfgang Kellack of the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights. He's usually here in Berlin, but he's in New York and we're going to talk to him there. Stay with us.

48:18. World Keep Spinning by Saul Relex. This is Democracy Now Democracy Now.org, the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman in Berlin, Germany. We're still the story. Please is screening at the Spore on Thursday night. You can check our website at democracynow.org. Angeloi Comet is in New York as we broadcast from Berlin. We end today's show with a discussion on the state of international law. Tomorrow Thursday is the 80th anniversary of the end of the Nuremberg Trials following World War II in which leaders of Nazi Germany were successfully prosecuted for war crimes and crimes against humanity. The Nuremberg Trials ended October 1, 1946. They're widely seen as a precursor to modern courts of international justice, like the ICC, the International Criminal Court. Well, today the ICC is under immense pressure from the United

49:20States over its issuance of arrest warrants for Israeli leaders for war crimes committed in Gaza. This is President Trump attacking the ICC at the UN General Assembly in New York last week. The United States is equally opposed to the out of control institution known as the International Criminal Court. We will never allow U.S. Service members or anyone else to be investigated or given show trials by an anti-American tribunal with no jurisdiction over us or an evil group of people. I call on all nations that are members of the ICC to officially resign from this rogue institution immediately. The U.S. has sanctioned members of the ICC including prosecutors, judges and staff and is reportedly preparing to issue sanctions against the court itself. On Monday, the German Foreign Minister visited the ICC in the hagg in a show of support for the court. Germany is the ICC's second largest financial contributor. Nevertheless, German Chancellor Friedrich Merch said last year that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

50:25would be able to visit Germany without arrest in contravention of German law. In a statement ahead of his visit, the German Foreign Minister Johann Wattofull said quote, Germany's mindful of its own history and knows what the outcome can be when state power overrides the rule of law and humanity. Therefore, for Germany's support for the ICC is not only a foreign policy issue, it's a part of our historical responsibility, he said. For more, we're joined now by Wolfgang Kalach, founder of the European Center for Constitutional Human Rights, ECC HR. Usually, he is based here in Berlin, Germany, where I am, but he's joining us from New York and has a new book. It's titled The Power of Law, Reconcilingly Gality and International Justice. Wolfgang, we're going to do this conversation in two parts. In this part, if you can start off by talking about Germany's position on the International Criminal Court, the all-out frontal assault

51:28that President Trump is waging on the court from the massive sanctions and beyond. Why you feel on this 80th anniversary of the end of the Nuremberg trials, you feel international law is so important. Hello, Amy from New York. I'm so sorry to miss you in Berlin. It's a very good take to start with the 80th anniversary of the Nuremberg trials. It's so sad to remember that the core group behind the Nuremberg trials were Robert Jackson, Telford Taylor and Benjamin Ferris, the U.S. prosecutors. And what they had in mind and Robert Jackson said it exquisitely and later on Telford Taylor wrote this book from Nuremberg to Vietnam. It was very clear. This is not only about the Nazi crimes. It is about to establish a universal rule that crimes against humanity, general

52:29sides and war crimes shouldn't be left impune. And so it was so important that in 2002, the International Criminal Court was established. It's a pity that many of the most important military powers such as the U.S., but also China, Russia and others, Israel, Iran didn't join the statute. But still, the court needed its time to get off the ground. But now they have an ongoing series of important trials. And we have to be clear, it's not only about Palestine. The sanctions against the court are first of all a big stroke against the International Criminal Justice, International Justice as such because the ICC is one of the light towers, one of the most important international institutions. So they want to destroy the institutions of the International Justice system. But the sanctions would also deprive not only the Palestinian victims,

53:36but also the Ukrainian victims, the Rohingya victims, the sub-seherian refugees and many others of their rights, the rights which we have been fighting for for many decades right now. And Wolfgang, I mean, we're living in a moment where international law is under assault in so many different fronts, whether we look at the war in Iran, what's been happening in Gaza for the past few years, Ukraine, so many other Venezuela, so many places, how do you retain faith in the possibility of international law in this context? I mean, when you look at Normburg 80 years ago, when you look at the Ichman trial in the 60s, when you even look in the 90s, the Rwanda and Djurgoslai-Vertrubunal, the survivors of state violence, the families and the civil society actors had not a real stand in these trials. But over the last decades, we entered the stage of

54:38international criminal justice and it is so important. I mean, we just listened to Nicolas Jard from Chile. The Pinotet arrest, 1998, was a wake-up call for all of us and there is a constant row of important trials initiated by civil society actors and that is a progress of the last couple of years, despite the ongoing attack against international law, the ongoing ignorance and in particular, the ongoing double standards of the West. You know, Wolfgang Kallik, you are representing Patrice Lamumba's family, for example, his grandchildren. He was assassinated in the Congo and the Democratic Republic of Congo in what 1961? In these last minutes, we have together, especially for,

55:39you know, in the world when people are so isolated when it comes to having global information, not to mention going back in time, can you tell us Patrice Lamumba's story and what his family's demanding now, who assassinated him? A lot of people are lamenting that the post-war liberal, West-dominated, or international order is eroding and of course, we're facing a change, but we don't have, we have to be very clear, the liberal order was also the history of disorder in many parts of the world. 1953 overthrow of Musadek, 1956 overthrow of Jakob Abans Iran, Guatemala, and then 61, the first democratically elected leader of Congo, Patrice Lamumba, kidnapped, tortured, assassinated, and then dumped in acid. Before that, the civilized, you know,

56:44Belgium, soldiers who were at the spot, break out his teeth and took them as souvenirs to Belgium. This is a story of the West preventing democratically elected leaders in the global south from distributing the goods of their country to the peoples of the country. That's the one side of the story. So this goes impugn for more than 60 years, but then, as I said, we entered the stage of international criminal justice. So the Lamumba family more than 10 years ago went to a Belgium lawyer and the Belgium law firm started a criminal case against 10 of the surviving Belgium participants in the murder and in the abduction. One of them was indicted last year and this is incredibly important. This will stay. This is a historical document.

57:44The indictment of the federal prosecutor in Belgium says that Patrice Lamumba's assassination is kidnapping, is constitutes a war crime. We have 30 seconds. We know the only accused died, but we are going to prepare a civil reparation case against the state of Belgium in the near future. You will hear from us. And we're going to do part two of this conversation here more about this, both Gankaluk founder of the European Center for Constitutional and Human Rights. His new book is titled The Power of Law, Reconcilingly Gality and International Justice. He speaking to us from New York, he usually is right here in Berlin, Germany. I'm here because the film about democracy now, steal the story, please, will be screening at Spurra. In Berlin, you can check

58:48our website at democracynow.org. That's October 1st Thursday at 7 pm. Afterwards, I'll be doing the Q&A with the director Carl Diel. I made me good men with Anjali Komet.