CT interior designer Sophie von Oertzen Williamson is team 'never beige'

0:00We spend a lot of time online, so when something actually feels worth your attention, you notice. At Connecticut Public, we create stories and conversations about real life here in our state. Things that keep you informed, curious and connected without all the noise. Find us on social at CT Public. This is where we live from Connecticut Public Radio. I'm Test Terrible, filling in for Catherine Chen. Connecticut-based textile and interior designer Sophie von Ertsen Williamson is team never beige. Easy effortless neutrals that complement each other just so. Soft colors and meticulously selected artwork. This is not what you will find in Sophie's home. Her new book is The Art of the Clash, a manifesto against mundane design. She recently spoke with us about her philosophy on interior design.

1:00One that integrates textures, layers and even tension into your home. Let's dive into the conversation. So I want to start off by asking you about your interior design journey. You know, I think interior design is one of those careers that many of us might be attracted to, but it's also not something that I imagine a lot of people say when I grow up, I want to be an interior designer. So what did this look like for you? First, I think I need to clarify one thing that I'm right now mainly still a textile designer. I am an inspiring interior designer and I want to get projects and I have some projects. But the textile business is like my biggest part of my business right now. But funnily enough that you say that about the whole growing up thing, I actually did one of those when I was 18 and I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. I did one of those tests. And the guy at the time was like, oh, she should do not interior design, but interior architecture,

2:03which is a huge thing in Germany. It's a proper five-year course. Yada Yada was like, oh no, I don't want to do that. So I studied politics and I worked in European politics for a hot second and didn't think I was a creative person. Which was the trajectory and I think this is something that's quite common with female interior design. It was also male interior designers that you kind of get to the latest age in life. And so I studied politics. I worked in Brussels, met my husband, now husband. And we had a child very quickly. And I was young and I moved to Luxembourg to be with him and with my with our son. And in Luxembourg there's no European politics. So that was kind of the end of that. And I again didn't think I was creative. I was like decorating, but it wasn't huge. It was a part of my life that was just like normal. I like to decorate, right? But it wasn't something that I saw as a career.

3:05Or even just design or drawy or any of that. And it took another child. It took a move across the world to Singapore. And a third child, to finally realize, OK, I want to do something on my own by myself. In the meantime, I had various different jobs. I had worked as an intellectual property cabinet. I had worked, what else I worked in fashion, all the things. And then I started my company for the textiles. And realized in the beginning, as I said, I don't want to do the illustrations myself. I don't think I can do this. And I had an illustrator. And I couldn't get my ideas across. And then I started drawing myself. And I realized, oh, I can do this. And then it's a typical thing. We then moved to America from Singapore to Cleveland, Ohio during COVID. And we bought a house and a hired interior designer. But I had so many opinions of my own that at some point I was like, OK, maybe this is a career I should pursue. And the house is in the book.

4:07She played a huge role. She was my mentor, Dawn Cook, I don't. And I then finally took it as a serious trajectory. But this is all my mother and my parents were like, who are you? Why are you creative? All of a sudden? So yeah, very much a later come to Jesus' moment in a way. When you were decorating, when you were just starting to do this personally in your own home, can you describe what that process looked like for you? Because what's coming to mind to me is I'm wondering if it was a bit of an oasis, and a bit of a escape from working in politics, working in intellectual property. It seems like you're kind of using a different part of your brain, you know, being creative there. Absolutely. But this is, I think, this is like bearing my soul. But I think I've always had this urge to stand out. And, you know, I'm a redhead. People can't see that, but I'm a redhead.

5:07And when you're always told that you're different anyway, then you'd some point you're either humid or you shrink back and I assumed it. And so also in interiors in my homes, my first home with my husband in Luxembourg, I painted the living room in eggplant purple. Just because I was like, yeah, that's the color I want to try it. So this was already very much there. I just didn't think it was a career. And I think though, Jesus' part is true to a certain extent, you know, I didn't have like a full on Korean intellectual property. This was a one year job. I didn't have a full on Korean European politics because I was so out of uni, very new out of uni that this wasn't a long thing. But the racist was always very true. I always felt that I needed to create something where I felt safe and at home. And uniquely me, that was always a thing. Yeah, definitely. I loved reading about your mother in your book, who you call mommy, my grandmother's and my mother have also been a big inspiration for me design wise.

6:08Can you tell me a little bit about your mother and how she kind of informed that for you? So mommy and she was known as Nana, a real name was Christiana, but Nana. She worked in fashion and she always had a very good sense and eye profession. So most of the jewelry, actually today I'm not wearing anything. Now actually the necklace that I'm wearing is all her because she was a fashion editor in Paris in the 70s. So you can imagine the amounts of costume jewelry that I inherited. That's just fabulous. She always had that and she has. Honestly, everything that I know and that I have inherently in me about colors that I can't even like now. I think I'm finding the words for it, but I always just had it in me and I couldn't put a couldn't put a name on it. I learned from her how to put colors together, how to see colors, how to. But patterns together. I mean, my mother was known for a fashion sense in a way that she wore a leopard prints when other people were still thinking was crazy and she was like, no, it's a neutral.

7:10You know, that kind of thing and also for her interior design. She the flat that I grew up in in Hamburg had, you know, it evolved. Obviously we lived there. She lived there for I think 20 years. So it, you know, it changed over the years. But it started out as the typical 90s Laura Ashley, everything's yellow. Laura Ashley flowers, very cute. Was even photographed at the time and then she did an update and then she did another update and she became more and more modern, which is quite typical for that generation. I find I see a lot of my friends, parents who become who are very good and her designers who become more modern and more streamlined. But she did. I think that is one big thing for my mother. She had the upbringing that she had. She didn't she didn't finish school. She didn't go to university. You know, she did all kinds of different jobs and then became that fashion editor, which was a huge leap, which was great for her. But she was somebody who always dead.

8:11She would always stand up for people. She would always dare to throw the color on the wall. She would always dare to wear the leopard print skirt in any settings. That kind of thing. And I think that's something I really learned from her to just to just bloody do it. I love that your book is the art of the clash and we're going to be talking about color today. We're going to be talking about incorporating life into homes. And I'm just I just want to go back to what's something you said. You talked about how you moved to Cleveland during the COVID-19 pandemic. Correct. So when I reflect back on that time that wasn't that long ago, it was just about five years ago now. I remember that time being the essence and kind of the start of the clean girl aesthetic. Where everything was beige or white in your entering this space. Kind of the anti beige and white, you know, your team never white walls.

9:13I think I saw that in your book and in your website. And I'm wondering if you could before we talk about why that is. You know, we're in an age right now where everything is white walls, crisp linens, pastels. And I'm wondering if you know if you could talk about that age that we're in where everything is kind of about these muted tones. And maybe if you have any insights, other, other ages in history where we've seen kind of similar trends happening. I mean, in all honesty, I would have to think very hard about other ages in history where we have these kinds of trends happening. I think what has happened throughout history is that you've always had very strict adherence to an ideal at some point. And especially in periods of societal upheaval, let's take Victorian England. They had very strict ideals on how women should dress, etc, etc.

10:15How a house should be, how people should behave. And it was a huge upheaval because it was an industrial revolution and life changed within within one generation. Life as people knew it changed. And I think we're going through that now. I actually have to disagree that I don't think that the clean girl aesthetic happened during COVID. I think this started long before that. It's something that we're also moving away from. I think that is the biggest thing for me at the minute. We are definitely moving. The people who love my style the most is Gen Z. Because I think we're all missing the safety of home and the safety of the haven of home. And the clean girl aesthetic does not give you a safe haven. It gives you a clean girl aesthetic. And I think that COVID-19 just focused that people then all of a sudden had on their own homes, etc.

11:19It also gives you, I think the clean girl aesthetic is a lot about power and control. And wanting to control something that is out of your control. Beat your body. Beat your body is to a certain extent. But if it's COVID, you can't re-control getting it or not getting it to a certain extent. Beat houses, beat whatever is happening in the world. And I think this is something that is reflected in our homes. And that's why I think also people are moving away from it. Because we all just want to have more human interaction. I love that. Can you talk more about why you think it is that's Gen Z specifically is attracted to kind of breaking away from the perfection, the matching furniture that we talked about before we missed the record button today? Because I'm seeing the same thing happen in trends that my parents' home looks a lot different than my friends' home. And that's kind of a relief.

12:19Yeah, I think it's like how the 90s are back in. It feels like this was the last time that everything was still okay. And obviously Gen Z wasn't born in the 90s. But when I was young it was the 80s that we look back on. And I think that you always have distinct generations that you look back on a previous generation. But I think it is the interhuman interactions of our world. But the human interaction and this idea of coming together and being away from your phones again, Gen Z grows up with phones. So this active situation of thing, we're going to put away our phones. And we're going to just be us together and real. I mean there's a whole thing, there's a whole movement of like smoking is cool again, which is ridiculous. But I think it's this idea of going back to simpler times. And the simpler times is maybe a messier home. And not having to be perfect for the gram, like for the algorithm.

13:19And I feel it myself. And I think there's a larger conversation around it. Because if we go back to simpler times it also means more handmade stuff. It means more personal stuff. I think luxuries definitely moving towards having the perfect handmade ball that you could get industrially made by a design by an AI design. But nobody wants that everybody wants the handmade thing that was painted and has imperfections. Because that's what humans are. We're imperfect and that's wonderful. Our guest today is Sophie von Ertsen Williamson. Her book is The Art of the Clash, a manifesto against mundane design. Coming up, we'll talk about introducing the element of tension in your home. This is where we live. I'm Tess Terrible in Forcathornchen. Stay with us. Support for this podcast comes from Hartford Health Care. Elevating health is funded by Hartford Health Care. Hernias are not uncommon and they shouldn't be ignored. Dr. Patrick Crosby, a minimally invasive surgeon at Hartford Health Care,

14:22describes what they are and why they won't go away on their own. Hernias are very common and they happen in certain locations, some more common than others. Like your belly button where your umbilical cord used to be or the groin. Or areas when you had prior surgeries and that tissue is just weaker than it was before. So a hole can open and stuff from inside your abdomen can go in through that hole and get stuck. They won't disappear. So even if you notice a bulge that doesn't cause any symptoms, you should still look for a surgeon. Most hernias surgeries are much less invasive than they used to be. Dr. Crosby explains. 80% of the surgeries we do are outpatient surgeries and surgery takes about two or three hours tops and you go home the same day. When you do get a robotic surgery, it recovers way faster. To learn more, go to CTpublic.org slash elevating health. This is where we live from Connecticut Public Radio. I'm test terrible filling in for Catherine Chen. When you look around your home, what do you see? More specifically, what do you see that you love?

15:24Is it a cool souvenir? Maybe a seashell? Or a family photo that always brings back good memories? Today, we're talking about all those elements and more with Sophie Von Ertsson, Williamson. She is a Connecticut-based textile and interior designer and her book is The Art of the Clash, a manifesto against mundane design. For more conversations on books, be sure to check out where we read by visiting CTpublic.org slash where we read. And signing up for our newsletter. Let's dive back into the conversation. Have you, I mean, it sounds like you've always been attracted to this aesthetic that you're describing where pieces and colors hold intimacy. They hold memory. But I'm also curious if, like, how you've evolved as a designer, because that does seem like an overwhelming, you know, overarching theme. In your story, but I'm also curious, like, how that's looked like through time, because we're always evolving.

16:31Well, it's evolving. I think for me was more developing it. Because, as you said, I've always had this. And I mean, as a child, I had a dollhouse, a wonderful wooden dollhouse that actually friends of us still have. And I look at it now and I'm like, oh, yeah, I completely designed that house. Like I completely paint the walls, that the whole thing. And didn't think I should do this as a career with, but you know, whatever. And I think it's more learning how to apply things and actually going deep into the history and the art history of design. And learning how to achieve the look that I crave. I've always, and again, I think this is the thing of like growing up with a mother who was very out there with a father who's also a character. And having, it sounds so weird, but having red hair always was only child. It was always the odd one out. It was always different. And so I just assumed it. And so I always crave that tension of finding the thing that just, it's, I don't know, when it works, it just works.

17:31And it gives me the tingles. I don't know how else to describe it. And I always wanted that. And have you also, I mean, I want to push back on that a little bit. Have you been tempted by the uniformity of trying to get the perfection? I mean, I have in my notes here, you know, I've been trying to create a capsule wardrobe for myself for the last like, dozen years. And this is kind of the first year where I'm like, I think I'm done trying to do a capsule front row wardrobe. And there's just an attraction there to have the security of perfect beige light your fence. I know what you mean. No, I totally know what you mean. And I think the capsule wardrobe is actually the perfect description of it. Who has a capsule wardrobe? I'm sorry. I don't know. I know that their fashion editor said that he can be like, yes, I do. But you still change up the things according to fashion. Right. And I think, yes, of course, I've been tempted. Have I dreamt of having a normal background with a normal parents and just being normal?

18:32Yeah, totally. But I think once you assume and accept that you are not that. And then it's so much easier and I just, I feel completely whole now. Something that I didn't feel for the best, like, first 30 years of my life. But I feel like utterly and 100% me in my perfect little imperfections. I talked about this also just earlier before that friend of mine texted me and was like, looking at the recent real that you did about like the perfect houses, but you have to understand striving to be imperfect. Perfect in your imperfections is also perfectionism. I'm like, OK, yes, I get it. But that's it's true. Like we can be imperfect and that's wonderful. It's letting yourself go. So we're talking about your book today, Art of the Clash. And I love the subtitle to this book that I have in front of me. A manifesto against mundane design. And when you talk about the clash, you use the word tension.

19:33That just in saying the word tension makes like my, my shoulders go up to my, my ears. But you're talking about tension and a really different and beautiful way and in design. And I'm wondering if you could describe what that means to you now. Yeah, I think tension for me is not the tension. As you just mentioned it. I think the tension is really. This is, OK, I'm a horseback rider as well. Or you should be having been on horse in too many years. But when you get the horse exactly what you wanted to be, it has a certain tension in the reins. I don't even know the termford in English and German is called an lino where the horse is just react perfectly. But there's not that doesn't mean your reins are slacking and that doesn't mean anything is slacking. It's like a, it's like a, what is this called, a spiral or like a jumping, it's just perfect. And this is what I mean with tension. It's this perfect moment of you don't have to pull, you don't have to push. But it stands in between.

20:33It stands in between two things. And when you move something it will react and move with it. And I think that for me is the tension in design that when something works, things talk to each other in the room more in the space or even in a house. And even in fashion, like if something works in fashion or if something works in art, usually it has a conversation in between different parts of whatever you're looking at. Yeah, that's my, that's my idea of perfect tension where you, I just traveled and knows where to go and jumps back and forth. I'm wondering if you could describe what this might, might look like in practice because of course we're on radio. Yeah, unfortunately, my house. Have the book in front of me, but yes, Sophie's wearing beautiful, cold blue pants. And I, because I love this line in your book that it creases your eyes and your senses. Again, those aren't words I would associate with tension.

21:34Yeah. And I think in practice for me, it's something that, yeah, the cresting your eyes are really huge thing and it's a very literal translation from German. Because cresting is, I don't know, German is called strichen and it really is something that you're like, you're very gentle. And it's in practice. It's something where I can actually talk about it. Like the latest thing that didn't our house was we have a room called we call it the great room and not my, that wasn't my name for it, my friend named it the great room because we do everything and we have dinner parties in it and we have my studios in it, we do popups in it and events, etc. And I recently installed a very cool wallpaper. And but the wallpaper is quite cutesy and it was too cutesy. And so I knew that I needed to create something else to counterbalance that. So that for me is one part of the tension. If you go too much into one, into one thing, let's say the cutesy wallpaper, you need to counterbalance it was something. I could have just put in, you know, it's a kind of floral, the scenery wallpaper, quite naive.

22:39So I could have put up some floral litigraths, but that would be boring. So I put up a huge sign where you can test your eyesight on the side of the, I don't know where I found it. And a poster of a exhibition, my great exhibition. And so you've got like two sides of like this is letters somehow. And then it moves on. You've got other pieces of art. I've got this very big water color of a massive female head that looks at you. It's very big. It's quite prominent in the room. And this woman can now look at other women that are also hanging on the walls. And again, this is something where it creates tension because it has something where the eye and it's all connected. It's all together. And the colors are all together. That's another thing with tension. Obviously colors plays a huge role. So in that room, the wallpaper is green. And it's mainly green, but also has blues and orange, etc. And so we have the greens and the blues and the orange, etc. All dotted throughout the room, but the balance is where it comes in.

23:40You kind of have to edit afterwards. Always say, don't throw it anything out. Horde, you can always edit later. It's much like, it's much better to throw all this spaghetti on the wall and then look which one sticks. But that's for me. Yes, this is an example of how I would create tension. And just by you repeat things, bit also you let some things need to stand by themselves. I'm trying to explain this, but it's not always as easy. It comes so inherently. Yeah. Well, you use a couple of beautiful analogies in your, your book, talking about the tension that we might see in the natural world. Yeah. And also the tension we might see in our lives and our human lives that is very imperfect and wondering if you could reflect on that a little bit. Because those two examples is when that this clicked for me that the pieces in our, in our homes and our interior design should not just reflect the good parts of our story, but the totality of it.

24:45Yeah, I love that that that that came across because most people are like, oh, the, the chocolate chip cookie analogies, the one where it clicks. So it does is where I say, good, chocolate chip cookie on his own is great. If you add salt to it, it's amazing. But I think the, for me, it's the, yeah, it's the human lives. I mean nature always has tension. You know, you've got the birds of paradise. They're just the most glorious colors, but they always works. And you look at them and they're so beautiful. Why can't we have that at home? Like this is, if it makes you happy in nature, it should make you happy at home. But I think in the interpersonal relationships is one that is very important to me and something that I struggle with a bit in America, because I find Americans are not very confrontational. Germans are very confrontational. And also in the best way, like we go that deep down into the feelings, into the things very quickly, we ask people that so how's your relationship with your father and people like, oh my god, do you need to tell you this? But I think it just makes it interesting. It makes, again, it makes life interesting. It makes humanity interesting that we have that that we can confront each other with opinions with, like for me, the best in a party's are when we don't agree.

25:55And at the end, we hug each other and say, this is the best. Like we recently had this. We had a screaming match with a friend of ours, but not in the bad way, but we were all, you know, was later at night and maybe we had a couple of drinks. But we then, you know, we all went home was super happy. We were like, yes, we talked about a subject. We didn't agree on perfect. We loved it. It's not life or death, but it is disagreeing on something that adds spice to life. So in inviting discomfort and inviting experiments and in addition to tension, you use a term called layering and layering is all about bringing all those pieces and whether those are your knickknacks, maybe that's an interesting lamp. Maybe that's an interesting unique piece of furniture. And I think, you know, the way I thought about this with your book is those are kind of the the sprinkles of the tension in the room that in a lot of ways we've kind of hidden away and we've abandoned.

26:59And I see that coming back in a big way. If you visit our work spaces here at Connecticut Public, you're going to see that almost all of us. All of our ducks have a collection of little figurines and stuffed animals and just little things here and there. And I'm wondering if you could talk about what this looks like in practice in your home, because what I love about layering and that concept of layering is that. You know, you and I might have the same tone of paint colors in our room, but we're never going to have the same knickknacks and it feels like knickknacks are coming back in a lot of ways. I think for me, the layering and I agree with the knickknacks, but that's kind of the that's the salt on the chocolate chip cookie, right? I think it you will let start with a flower. I think the pain like it really if you think about a home and you think of it in layers, it really helps create a cohesive scheme and create something cohesive. I actually don't like that word, but creates to create something that makes you happy.

28:06So it's it helps to think about the color first and think about the textiles and just all of it in your mind, you know, making it into layers and things that you add on and add on and add on and again. The horn tone throughout edit later. It's a lot of trial and error and I think the knickknacks is something that I don't even want people to just go out and buy stuff at tarjet or warm on whatever. I want them to find things that they love and remember and if it's you know, if it's a shell at the beach, I have a good collection of stones, you know, I mean, I'm serious about that. And they're not necessarily dotted around my house. They have a place in the home and my husband says to me, do we really have to move with stones? Are you serious? I'm like, yeah, we do. But it's these are the smaller things and I look at the stones and they remind me of our trip to New Zealand and they remind me of our trip then.

29:06And the knickknacks, yes, they're making a comeback. And I understand and I also recently got this comment of like, I think that there's some people in my generation who are just harrowed by the knickknacks of their parents when it's, I don't know, 150 whatever the dolls were called that they that gathered us because apparently they were like, worth so much. And I understand that that's a different type and I think we can take the best of what we love from the past and translate it into what we have today and be maybe more intentional with what we keep in the end when we edit. Not everything needs to be kept, not everything is valuable except if it holds value because your grandmother gave it to you something, but you know, not everything needs to be kept. That was Connecticut based textile and interior designer, Sophie Von Ertsen and Williamson. Her book is the art of the clash and manifesto against mundane design coming up. It takes time to design a home, but if you're anything like Sophie and I, you want it done yesterday.

30:10We talk about finding patience and grace in the process. This is where we live. I'm test terrible filling in for Catherine Chen. Stay with us. Being able to represent the Latino community on a platform like Connecticut Public is such an incredible honor. We need our voices to be heard and we need a place in every room because we deserve to be there. Representation matters and being able to be the voice that I didn't always hear on the radio is just a really cool thing. Somos Connecticut helps support local reporting that reflects and celebrates Latino communities throughout our state. Learn more at citypublic.org slash Latino. I feel like BabyCircle's book is probably the best series ever. It's the greatest feminist book series for children that you haven't read. Generation BabyCircle, the latest season of the podcast about the media we love and how it shapes us.

31:14Search your podcast app for Generation Connecticut Public or find us at ctpublic.org slash generation. This is where we live from Connecticut Public Radio. I'm test terrible filling in for Catherine Chen. Just a reminder for our listeners, if you want to hear more conversations about books, sign up for our Where We Read newsletter. It's a monthly rundown of what the Where We Live team is reading and includes highlights from author interviews. Find your next read at ctpublic.org slash Where We Read. Now let's jump back into my conversation with Connecticut-based textile and interior designer Sophie Von Ertsen Williamson. Her book is the art of the clash. All of this work seems a real testament to patients of being able to cultivate. I have been spending about a month and a half trying to find a couch from my home, like the right couch.

32:14And I have a perfectly good couch, but it's just quite quite old at this point. It needs to be replaced and my mother's just been like, just get the couch at Costco for all say. It's a couch. It's not a big deal. But to me, it is. It's going to be the centerpiece of my home. And I'm wondering, like, how you've developed that patience of you talked about at it later. You've said that a few times and like, what that means because homes, we do want them to be perfect right away. Yeah. And I'm still myself adjusting to that idea of work in progress, I guess. So it's a bit mean I'm very impatient. You have to like, I am the most impatient person on earth. And I think like everybody, what is mean in my case is that because we've moved so much, I have now, I arrive. Yes, in our house here in Connecticut, it took us a year to live in as it was. And then we saw the renovation. So it took us about two years to get it all done.

33:15And during the process, I thought I was going to die. I hated it. It's just, it's the worst, like the impatience of it, et cetera. Having said that, I actually learned patience with my husband because he's somebody who's very good at saying let's wait. Which drives me insane. But he has a point. And I think when it comes to something like the couch, if it's not, if it's not due to indecision, but more due to you haven't found the right one yet, then I would always practice patience. If it's due to, well, I have $5,000 and I can throw that the problem, I just can't decide if I want this couch with the slightly round of this couch and not slightly round. Then I would say, well, you probably have the money to get an interior designer and please do it. But you know, I think for the couch is something I obsess about it. And I tend to, I personally love something like Facebook, Marketplace, eBay and all these spaces and, you know, thrift stores and I love the hunt. So I tend to, we have an IKEA couch that we still have and then we had a different, we had a different one that I recently sold because I finally found the perfect one.

34:19After 10 years, I have wanted this type of couch for 10 years and I found it in Facebook, Marketplace. So, but I was perfectly fine with the other one. I'm a huge proponent of getting perfectly fine. While you still wait for the perfect thing. I think that's okay. And talking about the perfect thing, you know, I'm also a big antiqueer, love Facebook Marketplace. When we think about artwork, which is kind of, I think, thought of as a bit of a secondary thing in the home, you know, you get the couch first, you get the dining room table, you get the entertainment center and then you decorate. You're a big proponent of artwork that doesn't come in a frame, which I really loved. But I want to hear what you see that like in practice. I know in my own home, I have two maps that really should be used for hiking, but they're hung up on my wall right now because they're trails that I want to complete.

35:25But this sounds really cool. I love that. I think you should always hang exactly that for me. That's the type of thing that you should hang up. I think artwork quite often comes as part of decorating and it shouldn't. It should come as its own thing. I realize that art has a elitist connotation. Again, I also think that shouldn't be the case. There's so many wonderful artists out there. There's so many wonderful small galleries with young artists with just people who love to paint and they sell their stuff for $100, $150, $400. If you're more serious about art, take it slow. I think again, as like with your map, anything can be art. And this can be a holdover until you find something else. Maybe you love it so much that you will find another cool antique vintage map that you will hang up in the same place because you like actually I need to take it down because I need to do the trails. Maybe it's the thing of like you will find a replacement for it. Wouldn't that be cool?

36:26So I think this is something where artwork is not just decoration. And I think that's for me personally. I use art a lot as a creative attention. I think especially contemporary art in a more formal classical setting. It's gorgeous. I love nothing more than when you see in Italy have that a lot where you have these grand palazzo. And then you have a contemporary art collection. I think the Prada collection is like in a grand palazzo. Dries von Norton just bought something in Venice. And he's going to make the Venetian palazzo into a contemporary art center. I mean, how wonderful is that. And this is the thing that's very interesting. But that's another next level of art. Not everybody's interested in that. And not everybody wants to go down that route. But you have enough cool posters. You have enough, it like this is such a core way of bringing into color, bringing in color, but not matchy, matchy, please. We're not going to do home goods art. I love home goods in every other sense. But for art, no, thank you.

37:29Let's find original ones. It's easy. It's so easy nowadays. You have so many apps. You have so many websites that sell original art. And even if it's an addition, it's wonderful. And if you like it, just get it. Please. Old secondhand thrift sales. I mean, all of that. Another big conversation I'm hearing right now and I'm seeing right now is around light. And there's a joke circling on social media. I've seen a couple of times about never turning on the ceiling. I would sure pick proponent of and you know, reading about this in your book. I mean, lighting is the most essential constant thing that is in all of our homes yet we don't really talk about light a lot. Oh, in interior design cycles, you talk about that. I think there is. And that is it's very funny with one of my Instagram posts. I landed on the side of Instagram where people like overhead lights.

38:29And he were like, well, we don't have the time to turn on all these small little lights. We have like 15 children and the woman she had like 30 grandchildren is like, no, we just need to be able to craft and we want to see everything and not be like too dark. And we have one table lamp and it's not even plugged in. And I was like, OK, how did I get here? But OK, which fennel if they love that again, this is one my biggest thing about all of this. If you love to live in a sterile overhead light and in a sterile place and in a when no knickknacks can be seen, please do it. This is your life and your home. But if you like me and overhead lights make your hearts make my eyes hard, my brain hard and I just don't like it. Then lights is important. And again, also so incredibly easy. That's something I never understand about it. How people can just be like they invest so much money, but then you haven't got the money to go to Facebook marketplace and buy one little table lamp that you can put in a corner. It doesn't have to cost a fortune. All of this just is easy and you can make your own like buy a white lampshade. And if you don't like the color painted.

39:37There's a lot of options out there and it requires just a little bit of going out there looking or even not that IKEA has great light table lamps. I actually have two gorgeous table lamps in my key and then the back of the book on the back, those are for my key. So you can get so many options and I think the main thing is that people are worried that they can't see enough. And if you're worried about that, yes, then add more light. But just add like just do some indirect light for moods, please. I love that. You know, you taught your second part of the book. So for our listeners that haven't seen the book yet, the first part is all about the art of the clash, about the layering, about the tension. But your second part of the book is more about each individual room. And you talk about the purpose of our rooms, you know, as their kind of standalone spaces as the kitchen being the place for the energy, the bedroom being that more intimate quiet space.

40:43But in reading your book, it struck me that a lot of our rooms have become very multi purpose, where during the COVID-19 pandemic, everyone's dining table became the table. And I'm wondering how we start to think about design with that in mind, also smaller spaces. I think are becoming a lot more common, the studio apartment is ever getting smaller and smaller and smaller and there's a whole corner of the internet that's devoted to making the most of your tiny she box apartment. And I'm just curious, you know, from someone that that has designed, I'm guessing larger homes and and that, you know, because you have, I think three children, you said, how, how do you think about that of making use of the space? We have when they're ever changing and sometimes ever shrinking as well. I think it's the, I think there are a couple of things said, one, smaller space is much easier to make cozy and layer than a bigger space and then a huge, I mean, open concept.

41:51We don't even have to start talking about it because it's my nightmare. But a smaller space is easier, obviously, the challenges to it, but there's so many amazing storage for storage things nowadays. But even if you don't want to have like, I'm going to go full on built-in our TV room, we call it the library, we're a little bit posh that way, but it's actually a massive TV room. We're just right off our kitchen and it used to be the dining room previously in the house that we live in. And we created like we added all these built-ins to make it into a library. And it's also become my daughter's crafting area. So her stuff is everywhere, but what we have is we have one of those secretaire desks that you can open, she throws everything in and then she just shuts it. And that is a really great way of hiding things away. So all the things where you can add a curtain, add a basket, add something is how you can make a space more diffunctional. But you also at the same time created layer of coosiness. Any textile texture will always add to the feeling of being cozy and safe and just make things feel at home.

43:01And I think that for small spaces is easier than for big spaces. And in general, I agree that spaces that rooms have evolved into becoming all kinds of multi-functional things. I think we shouldn't fall into the trap of making it then, you know, the open concept kind of situation where everything is just in one room and you can do anything and everything. I think it's really important for humanity to have their own little spaces to pull away from and be able to close a door. Be the door with the glass door, you know, you can still see the other person but you can close it and you don't have to hear them. And an extension of that, I mean, you just mentioned your daughter and most of us have a space that we share with others. And you talked about kind of your own design journey. How do you approach design and creating spaces that you share with other people as most of us do?

44:04I am, I am, I have a, I cannot give you good advice on that because my husband lets me just do. And my kids love it. My oldest is almost 17 and he actually helped me with the kitchen. He came up with some crucial ideas for our kitchen. So he's very interested in that. I hear that a lot of from clients who are like, oh my God, my husband would never go for this or never go for that. And I think there's a way as a designer, you hold hands a lot and that's fine and it's totally part of the thing. So there's a way of finding a good medium ground that helps everybody but it's not always easy. And I think that's one of the biggest achievements when you kind of read about a project and they were like, well, the husband was super modern and the wife was super classical and we found a middle way you're like, well done because that's not easy. And again, my husband just, I mean, our, our living room, the theme for our contemporary art collection, the living room is the human form. We have a lot of naked people.

45:08It was my husband find with that. Yeah, but he have maybe preferred not so many naked people. Maybe, but you know, I love it. And it looks good. But so this is the kind of thing that I'm extremely lucky with a wonderful, very supporting husband in that sense. I think we're still in an era that we view design interior design as a luxury project. And I don't, you know, I don't play anybody for that. I mean, when you open the glossy magazines, these are still very contemporary, very expensive homes with very expensive pieces. But one thing we've learned is I think from the COVID-19 pandemic in the years following is that we spend a lot of time in our homes. And I'm wondering if you could talk about that in viewing interior design, not so much as a luxury, but as an investment and maybe a necessity because these places that we spend almost all of our waking hours.

46:17I don't know. I think we deserve to have some. What you actually, like one big thing that is that I'm a huge fan of is the concept of universal design, where it's kind of the idea that everything that you live in should be designed to your best supportive way. Like even this wonderful studio here, we could design it a bit more that we absolutely. So I think that the notion of interior design being a luxury, luxury item is a little bit foreign to me because, but just because I didn't grow up with an interior design as a job. Like in Europe and Germany, people don't reuse interior design as they just do it themselves. And I think this is something where Americans and this is now going to, you know, I'm cutting my own flesh here, but just trust yourself a bit more on how you want to decorate. I think that is something that is okay. And the idea of that people will come in and judge you because your house isn't perfect, or it's not done up yet, then there's one or not your friends.

47:20And to the only reason why would judge you when I come to your house is if there's not a cozy lamp in the corner, and if you don't give me a cold drink, I don't care apart from that. If you have, if you force me to sit in like in a sterile, perfect kitchen, I'd judge you more for that than anything. And so I think the necessity of, you know, it's so important to realize that this is your home and this is your safe haven. I think that's so important, like that you want to feel safe at home. So to end the conversation, I want you to tell our listeners, I guess, any last minute, any final advice on embracing the art of the clash to find the advice. I think what's there, there are two things. One thing I quite often get asked a lot, like how do I start? I want to start with color, but where do I start? And then I just, I go back to this very wonderful, childish thing. What is your favorite color? Start with that.

48:20And then look at a color wheel. It's really that easy. Look at a color wheel and look at the complimenting colors, the opposite colors, like all of those. Really helpful in coming up with a color scheme. And I'm actually in an in connection with that. Stop just doing one room. Go and think about the full on flow of a house. And this is maybe a bit mean because this is like, oh, do whatever you want, but actually don't do this. Because if you look at the full flow of a house, you will feel so much more at home. If it's not just what like the whole house is wide, but you have one drawer room, that's weird. At least add some other drawer turns to the rest of the house. And then this is now leads me to the, but then in the end just ignore me and do whatever you want. It is, I really want inspired people to understand that it's your home. It's nobody else's home. It's yours. And maybe in your family or your partner or your best friend if you live, like it's, or you in your dark, like it's yours. And even if you rent, you can do things. You can hang up tapestry on the wall.

49:22And I'm not meaning expensive tapestry just buy a cheap tablecloth that has a funky pattern and hang it up on the wall and try that and then hang some posters over it. And there you go. You've got the hours of a cash. It's really a whatever the, I'm not going to say, hmm, you want to do. Right? It's, I think that is so important. Just go out there and try it out because trial and error is the essence of creativity. And it's the essence of getting wherever we want to be because humans have never gotten anywhere without trying. We need to try and fail. That was my conversation with Connecticut author and designer Sophie Von Ertsson Williamson. Her book is the art of the clash, a manifesto against mundane design. To find out more about her book, visit us at ctpublic.org slash where we live. I'm test terrible filling in for Catherine Chen. Our technical producer is Dylan Reyes. Download where we live anytime on your favorite podcast app. Thanks so much for listening.