Caratacus: King of the Britons

0:00Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Chutaburg forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com-subscribe. Hey, you've been T-bone on the way to work. You could be facing a big insurance company that's when size matters. You want a law firm with the people, resources and experience to take them on. Morgan and Morgan has more than 1,000 lawyers and offices across the country fighting for people just like you every day and that's a whole lot of lawyers. Starting your claim is easy and the fee is free unless you win. So if you've been injured, go to forthepipo.com-slazharvyradio.

1:00Morgan and Morgan are America's largest injury law firm. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like and that's exactly what growth therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments, you just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity or availability, and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the

2:01national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com-acast. That's growtherapy.com-acast. Growtherapy.com-acast. Study and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. This episode is sponsored by Smart Travel, a new podcast from NerdWallet. You know that one friend who always finds the best travel deals, picks the right cards, and somehow ends up in first class for the price of coach. Smart travel is like that friend, but in podcast form. They cover all things travel finance, so you can stop stressing and actually start enjoying your trips. I'm lucky enough to travel a fair bit. You might have heard me talking about being on tour with the ancients in Australia and New Zealand quite recently. Well, Smart Travel podcast from NerdWallet was a great help.

3:01They dig into which airport lounges are really worth it, and which are just an airport gate with better snacks and worse lighting. And what actually happens when an airline loses your luggage for 12 days and how to get real money back instead of a free drink and an apology? Plus, the tip I really needed. How to book flights without it turning into a part-time job. Travel smarter and spend less with help from NerdWallet. Follow Smart Travel wherever you get to your podcasts. When we think of ancient Britain's resistance to Roman rule, one name towers above the wall. Budica, queen of the Icini. But before Budica, there was another British leader who resisted for far longer. Budica's neighbour and rival, Caratcus. When other British rulers surrendered to Roman rule, Caratcus fought on for seven long years. When pitched battle failed, he turned to guerrilla warfare.

4:02Time and again, he slipped through the iron grip of Rome, eluding capture and proving himself not only an accomplished military leader, but also quite the escape artist. He was a commander so cunning that he became public enemy number one. He was a king so charismatic that even the Romans respected his resilience. Today, I'm very pleased to have my good friend Dr. Miles Russell on the show. Miles's new book is called Caratcus, Great King of Britain, and it tells the remarkable story of this British resistance hero. Miles, it is such a pleasure to have you back on the show. It's great to see you again, my friend. It's brilliant to be here. Fantastic. Thank you for inviting me. Last time we chatted, we normally chapped around in the open field. I mean, usually one of your dig sites. In some kind of some blasted field. Yes, yes.

5:02That's quite nice to be here in the studio. What are you looking at? Welcome to the big city. First of all, the big smoke. You have written this new book about one of my favourite figures also from Anjane Shion, a big figure of you as to you too. Caratcus, this other big British resistance hero. Many people think Budakas straight away, but he's the other major one at the beginning of the Roman occupation. The Roman invasions are Britain. He is. He's got, for now, it's him as Caratcus, but he is. He's one of those figures. He's actually really significant. I mean, arguably he's the whole cause of the Roman invasion of Britain. He fights the Romans for such a long period of time, but he's always overlooked. So Budakas gets the big lighting, Budakas, the big story, Budakas gets the big Hollywood treatment, whereas Caratcus tends to get ignored and forgotten. I deliberately started by saying Caratcus because I knew you were going to challenge me straight away. So come on, let's get into the nerdy naming.

6:03Caratcus or Caratcus? It technically should be Caratarchus. So we've got the Carra bit, is this sort of effectively in Brithonic or Welsh. Same deriations as Carriad, it's sort of the beloved. So the stress should be on the Carra and then Caratcus, rather Caraticus, or sometimes even you see it's about Caraticus with an extra C. So ignore those. It should be Caratarchus. So it's like how the evolution of Bodicea has become Budakas over the decades. It's a bit similar with Caratarchus. It is. I mean, we're left with the problem that when we're looking at these sort of histories, the name has been transcribed multiple times through the medieval era when people have been copying it and there's so many spelling variations. So as with Budakas, Bodicea has been a name corruption, but we think it should be Budakas and Caratarchus. I mean, there's lots of different variant forms of his name, but that seems to be the one that is probably the most correct. So what does Caratarchus mean? So beloved. It's just really the beloved. He is someone who, and it's interesting in his story, he sort of gets, he's got, seems

7:05to have his great charismatic personality. People loving people support him and people genuinely mourn his loss. So it's one of those difficult things. So is this a birth name or is this a name he's inherited like with Budakas? It seems to be translators, victorious. This is serious. So is that a name she was given at birth with the hope she would be always that more a sort of a name that she is given after her initial conquest against the Romans. So I think with all these names, we've got to be careful. We don't know when they're actually introduced. And why can we also call him a king of the Britons? He is somebody, he's minting coins to start with. He's got his name sort of slapped all over a whole series of coins before the Romans arrive. And he seems to be wielding a significant power within central southern Britain. He's displacing other monarchs and he's creating a territory of his own. So he certainly identified himself as a king, although the Romans don't give him that kind of honor. But this is great. So you mentioned archaeology there. So often for many of these kind of big rebels of Rome, you have to rely predominantly on just

8:07the Roman sources and that history is written by the winners. But with Karatakis, we do actually have archaeology surviving too. We do. We've got a lot of archaeology. As I mentioned, there's a lot of coins with his name on. That's great when you get those because on the other side, there's a whole series of images and usually it's great with Iron Age coins because you can see what kind of element of power they're trying to project to their people. What symbols and signs they're copying from the Roman world, which ones they're bringing themselves. But also Karatakis occupies that area whereby he's linked to a whole series of sites like Colchester, like Silchester in Central Southern Britain, Chidista, and then again with the whole series of battlefields in Wales. So geographically speaking, he's relatively easy to place. But you're right, he's also mentioned a lot in the Roman sources. And it's one of those bizarre things because essentially, we don't know when he was born, we don't know when he died. And in fact, the written source has only given us about a decade of his life between

9:11AD41 and 51, but it's a big decade. It's a point in his life where he's fighting Rome, he's making a huge impact. And that's I think what makes him a great leader, a great character and someone who resonates down to history. It's just that brief 10 year period of glory. Well, other Roman sources also helpful for understanding that decade alongside the archaeology for giving us quite frankly a narrative of his resistance. They are. I mean, the sources are incomplete. That's the first thing we've got to be aware of. Tacitus, who's writing sort of beginning of a second century, he gives us the end part of Caratarcher's career. And Cassius Diode gives us the beginning. Trouble with Cassius Diode, he's writing a good 250 years later. And he's garbled, he's confused, he doesn't really care about. The version of history that he gives us. And when you compare him with more reliable sources, you do realise that he's sort of, he ups the body count, he increases the gore. He's not wholly reliable as a historian.

10:12But he's what we have to rely on for the beginning of Caratarcher's career against Rome, the invasion. And it's tacitus who gives us the end. But it's a short window of opportunity. But it's very clear that the Roman sources much admired this character as a resistance leader, as a sort of a great noble heroic barbarian who effectively was managed to resist against them for a long period of time. Interesting. So it's quite a bit of detective work then to piece together those sources along side the archaeology when reconstructed the story of his resistance. One last thing on the background I have to ask is you mentioned that you've got battle sites as well in Wales and usually battle sites are so invisible today, quite frankly, to find them. But do we have them then for Caratarcher's in Wales? No. OK. But the trouble is, I mean, even something as dramatic as Budicas battle against the Romans in 60 AD when we're told tens of thousands of Britons die. No one's successfully located that battlefield.

11:12Ancient battlefields are really problematic because the landscapes change. They're not often tied into a specific named place. Bodies are removed or scavenged. Weapons are taken away and recycled. So it's very, very difficult to positively identify an ancient battle source. We've got great literary descriptions for the two of the major battles that Caratarcher's fights against the Romans, but trying to place them has been notoriously difficult. And people have tried for the last couple of hundred years. They haven't been located precisely, but geographically speaking, we can be fairly sure where they are good, but not the exact place on the ground, sadly. OK, fair enough. So there's nowhere. Caratarcher's Tudorburg Forest Equivalent and Wales in the world. No, no, no. OK. Well, now we've covered all of that. Let's delve into the background of Caratarcher's, the man, the myth, the legend. So do we actually know quite a bit about his family? We know quite a bit yet about his ancestry. His father, Kina Belenus, is minting coins, essentially around St. Orbans in Hertfordshire

12:14and also around Colchester and Essex. These are the two centres of power that he claims sort of authority over. He's mentioned the few Roman sources, Srotonius describes him as a great king of the Britons. So it's clear that he is trading with the Roman world. He's perceived to be one of the major players in Britain. One of the difficulties that the Roman Empire has is Britons on the fringes of the Roman Empire. They're trading with Britain, but they want it to remain relatively stable. They don't want people to get too big and too powerful and sort of tip things over. So Kina Belenus is Caratarcher's father. We know that a chap called Tasski of Arnuss is his grandfather and all three are minting coins. So that sort of element of lineage is fairly clear. They are, we don't know how they came to power. But it is very obvious that these are the mate. If you think of them more like a mafia family, they're controlling trade. They've probably got their own bodyguards. They're probably organising protection rackets. They're looking after their own, but they're always looking for ways to expand their

13:16empire. So they're quite unstable as a power base, but Rome is quite keen to have them on board and to give them sort of the nice status of the Mediterranean world, wine, olive oil, garam, all this stuff. The fish source. The fish source, yeah. This is quite offensive, really. But it's, and in return, the Britons are giving the Roman Empire slaves and metals and grain to feed the army, which then is based down the Rhine. The Roman army can't feed itself, so it needs an awful lot of food supplies. And Britain is providing some of that food material. So it works great for Rome to have these allies and these allied monarchs in Britain, as long as they don't overstep the mark and create too much of an empire. And that's really what seems to be cannibalinas might be doing in the early decades of AD is that he's expanding his empire too much at the cost of his immediate neighbours. So he's somebody whom, I guess, other kings, other leaders are leaving Britain and going

14:17to the Emperor Augustus to ask for help because they feel that their kingdom's in peril, because this guy is expanding too much, he's taking control of too much, and they want Rome to put him back in his box. So Karatakis is very much born into the purple almost in regards to a very powerful British chiefdom at that time, who might be almost like Hannibal Barker's father, Hamilkar. He's raising his own family's power at a time, but that is starting to raise concerns across the channel in the Roman Empire. And I think we've also got to bear in mind that these aren't isolationists. These aren't British monarchs who have never been to Rome. The evidence seems to be that a good deal of them have been to Rome. They're copying Roman images on their coins. We know that Augustus promotes this idea that the Britons are coming to him. They're making sacrifices on the capital, Rome's most holy place in the eternal city. So these are people who are very familiar with what Rome represents, what it can offer them. They're not living in a barbarian utopia completely isolated from the Roman world.

15:20They know what it's got to offer, but they also know the threat. So they're playing a very careful game. They don't want the Roman army to just turn up like Julius Caesar had done in the 50s, mid 50s BC and start imposing regime change. They want to keep Rome happy too, but they are trying to get away with as much as they can without antagonising the emperor. Do you reckon that Caratarchus, when he was a young lad and you know, he said he would not living in a vacuum, he would have heard of the Roman Empire, all those Roman goods coming in? Do you reckon he would have gone to Rome? I think it's quite likely. Yes, I mean, he on a lot of his coins that we see, there's a very nice Roman eagle. As I said on his father's cannabalignus, there's a whole series of Romans, Romans, finks, there's Roman ships. So there are. So they're very much living with this repertoire of Roman images. I think it's highly likely that Caratarchus has been to Rome, so he knew what he was up against. He knew all the kind of organisational ability, all the kind of architectural grandeur that

16:24Rome had to offer. So he's not completely idiot in the sense of standing up, not realising that Rome is a major superpower. He knows that, but he is trying to create his own little kingdom. And it's that, I think, that really antagonises the Rome to the point that it decides to put sandals on the ground and to send Roman troops to Britain. Interesting. So you think actually Caratarchus is a cause in all of that? I just kind of want to have Lingram that potential of him going to Rome before he becomes a king in his own right. When his dad is still ruling, because of course, maybe you could look at similarities with someone like Arminius, you know, kind of the great Germanic leader of the Basti Tutsburg Forest, how he learnt Latin, how he spent his considerable amount of time in his youth in Rome. I guess it's fun to kind of query to theorise as to whether Caratarchus would have spoken Latin as well. I think you did. There was a stage where too far ahead, but he's credited with this great speech in Latin. And people said that he must have been given that speech where he must have been added

17:25to him. But I think, yes, he would have understood Latin very, very clearly. I mean, Augustus and the Empress that come after him are very clear about who they want to rule the barbarian lands beyond their empire. And they demand that kings and queens, those sort of rulers, send their firstborn to Rome where they can be brought up in the Roman tradition. They can learn Roman law, they can speak Latin so that when they return home to take over their kingdoms, their model citizens. So I think Caratarchus is part of that world. And if he himself hadn't been to Rome, then certainly his brothers would have done. So that sort of family element, they would really know what Rome had to offer. So who are these brothers of Caratarchus? We've got one, Toggy Dubness or Toggo Dubness. There's very forms of his spelling of his name, who is also minting coins in the sort of central Eastern Britain. We've got the Idubny part of his name element on those coins. And we've got a chap called Aminus or as the Roman historian, Srotonius, describes him

18:26and Minius. So there's lots again, garbling of these, the Britain's names aren't written down. So the Romans, historians, when they're writing them, they garble them, they corrupt them. And so we often have five, it's a bit like Shakespeare, writing his name in 56 different ways. The Ionese Britain, sometimes we have to assume that a different spelling is the same person, but it's a corruption of that name form. So we've got Toggy Dubness, we've got Aminus. These are two brothers of Caratarchus. Aminus flees to the Emperor Kyligula in 8040. We're told that he's ousted from Britain by his father, Kinne Bellinas. Wow. We've done what he's done, but Kinne Bellinas effectively kicks him out. He grabs a ship, he goes over to the continent. Unfortunately, he arrives in Rome at the time at Kyligula's in charge, not the most stable of Empress, not the most secure place to go. We don't know what happens to him afterwards. Kyligula makes a big show of having this guy and having, basically, making the claim

19:26that the whole of Britain has surrendered to him, which of course it hasn't. But he makes a parade in Rome, he claims to have conquered the ocean. So there is that sense that part of the family is going over to the Roman cause. Toggy Dubness, Toggy Dubness, again, we're not sure quite sure how his name is pronounced. He's minting coins in the Roman tradition. He may have gone over to Rome as well. So there's at least three brothers. We know there are more because various times in Caratarchus's career, we're told that brothers are captured. And we don't know whether those are brothers in arms in the general sense or whether it's just a huge family. I suspect it is a huge family. Do you think they're, are they also minting coins when their father is still alive, when cannibal in that still alive? No, so that's all happening afterwards. And that's kind of when there's a, seems to be a bit of a struggle between them. It is, I think, really that the whole problem with Britain comes when cannibaliness dies. Let's cover this. Yeah, this big succession crisis. Yeah. So sometime before 8043, we're told that he's dead.

20:26And there is a succession crisis. Now usually Rome chooses a successor. You have to go to Rome, you have to make the sacrifices. The emperor basis is you are the nominated successor and you go back and then you can use the title Rex. So we see a lot of the Iron Age coins in Britain have that rex on them. That's basically saying they have been acknowledged by Rome as the legitimate leader of a particular area. So they've got the support of Rome. They probably also got Roman troops somewhere in their territory to protect them. But also to basically decide to rebel against the Rome, those troops are there to execute you or to imprison you. So it's against a double age sword being friends with the Roman world. But I think there is that sense that Rome hasn't quite yet decided who's going to succeed in Britain. We've got one brother, Aminia Susan Rome with with Killigula, May or May not be dead. But he's gone over. We've got Tuggedubbness, we've got Caratarchus, they are in dispute.

21:26I think what we're really seeing is a civil conflict between these two brothers. Rome feels that Britain is being lost or at least it's becoming unstable and it needs to assert control and say which of the two brothers is going to be the legal inheritor of Cunabilinas. That's really where I think the whole concern with Britain arrives. But of course it also occurs at a time that Claudius, the Emperor Claudius, has just become Emperor. He is an individual, if you know you obviously see, well Red Robert Graves is of seen I Claudius, she gets his sense that this is somebody who's been kept away from the remember the Adulio Claudian family, but he's not the most successful. He hasn't had a great political career. He's got some kind of physical or mental ailment which has kept him out of the public eye. When he becomes Emperor, he's basically following the assassination of Caligula, he's the last member of the family around who could take over. He becomes Emperor quite late in life. He's got no kind of military glory.

22:27He's looking for somewhere to start a war. Somewhere he can proclaim as a great inheritor of Augustus and Julius Caesar and part of that family group. Britain, because it's unstable at that time, is the ideal opportunity for Claudius to say right, I will go and resolve that, I will take all the credit for that, I will bring part of, you know, distant Britain into the Roman world. Because the thing is Julius Caesar has been there twice in 55 and 50 war before BC, hasn't conquered Britain, but Julius Caesar has been turned into a god. If Claudius can go to Britain and bring it into the Empire, that's better than Caesar, that makes him better than a god. So it's looking as the ideal opportunity to bolster his career is to insert himself and his army into southern Britain. Ok, no pressure there, and then that will lead us into the Roman invasion of Britain, which we will cover next. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough.

23:30It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down, instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what growth therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments, you just pay per session. No connect to you with thousands of high quality licensed therapists across the US, offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48 day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash a cast.

24:33Thanks for visiting our yoga class. Tap when you're ready. What just happened? It's my new BMO LAFC debit mastercard. Every time I use it, it taps me into the game. Okay, maybe don't do it again. Ooh, these socks are nice. I'm going to go ahead and do it again. I'm going to do it again. Okay, maybe don't do it again. Ooh, these socks are nice. I'm going to go ahead and do it again. It's so sorry. The BMO LAFC debit mastercard. Tap into the game. A counter-subject to approval and I provide in the United States by BMO Banking Act. Remember at the IC. BMO! Are you looking for the perfect podcasts to hunker down with during the longer, colder, darker nights? Well, look no further than the award-winning After Dark Myths, Mistyids, and the Paranormal with me, Maddie Pelling. And me, Anthony Delaney. We are historians and love all things gloomy and macabre.

25:34From Tudor Executioners, an ancient Egyptian death rituals, to which trials and folklore feel transported back in time on After Dark, out every Monday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. And guess what? We're also now on YouTube. After Dark, a podcast from History Hit. Miles, there were so many things that I loved in that answer you gave there. First off, I was so often in history that when a big, titanic figure dies, who's been growing their domain, and it's unclear on the succession or there are rivals struggling for power. I've seen it with Alexander the Great, for instance, that's the big one, but so many others. You do then get the civil war, the civil strives. So I like that theory that it was potentially this fracturing of power that the Romans take

26:36advantage of. They see right now as our time, because our interests in southern Britain are threatened by this kind of war between Caratarchus and Togrodibnas. Yes, exactly. I mean, I think any, you look right through the medieval period in sunny Meagalist, Axon England, it's the death of a monarch, that succession crisis. You need to make it really clear who is succeeding you. And in Iron Age Britain, that's complicated by the fact you've got to ask Rome's permission first. So I think in the absence of any kind of permission or acknowledgement by Rome, this uncertainty develops and you've then got a civil war brewing. And we know of at least three monarchs who fled to Rome and asked for help. There's a feeling that a whole of southern Britain is becoming unstable. Right. So it's seeping through into the other kind of tribal areas, like the Atrobatis and the Kanteyaki. So other places that are very much know the Roman Empire and have interests with Rome. Rome has interests with them as well. There is. And we're told just before the invasion that one of the sort of main reasons for it is an individual called Verica has gone over to Rome and to ask Claudius specifically for help.

27:37They've been kicked out as part of an uprising. And I think looking at the spread of coins, Verica's territory seems to be really sort of West Sussex Hampshire and up into Barksia. It's exactly the same area that Caratarchus is coins are appearing. So there's a feeling that perhaps Caratarchus is developing his power base, is unsettling other monarchs and Verica certainly has gone to Rome and said to Claudius, can you help? I'd like to be restored to power. So I can get the coinage evidence. That's really interesting to see how Caratarchus is power is expanding south of the Thames into the home counties today. And that's worrying for Rome because Verica had controlled Chidges de Harbour, Portsmouth Harbour, some of the major Ports of Entry into Britain. So if Caratarchus is to control you that, even if he's pro-Roman at that stage, Claudius doesn't know anything about him is sort of and you can't allow Barberian leader to house an ally. Verica's an ally, Rome needs allies and therefore Caratarchus needs to be taught a lesson. So I think that's one of the major reasons why Claudius decides now is the time.

28:40We can reinstate our allies. We can put Caratarchus back in his box. We can either imprison him or just make sure he's no longer in power, but we need to make sure that southern Britain is secure. Right. So the Roman forces gather ready to face the armies, the warriors of Caratarchus and Toggedubnus as we'll get to in this theory at least. So what happens? The main problem and we get this with any history of Roman Britain is where do the Romans land? I love this. This is great. Romanists come to blows physically very angry about some argue that it's Kent, some of it's Sussex, some of it it's Port Smith Harbour. We ultimately we don't know. Cassius Dio who's only source for this period is vague. He just says there is a force is sent to Britain. It comes across in three waves. We don't know whether that's three successive waves landing in the same place or three separate landing places. My feeling has always been that if it's if it's Verica and Verica is asking to be reinstated

29:41to their kingdom, that's really Chidrister, that's Sussex, that's Hampshire. It's fairly pointless to land in Kent. Julius Caesar landed in Kent twice in 55 and 54 BC and came across twice. So Rome, Claudius has got no real friends in Kent, but if he's sending an expedition it like almost like a peacekeeping for a UN peacekeeping force to Britain to reinstate Verica to find out what's going on. So it's not really I don't think the first stages of 8043 are full blown full scale invasion because Claudius is quite careful and quite thoughtful about these sort of things. He's sending a small force over to find out what's happening to reinstate Verica and to restore order and that will be a minimum loss of life. If you were sending in sort of four legions, five and a half thousand men per legion plus auxiliary is you're looking at 30 to 40 thousand troops in an invasion for they need to be fed, they need to be kept safe. That could be catastrophic. But if you send sort of five thousand, one legion or part of a legion, they can arrive,

30:44they can sort things out, they can stabilize the area. We know that Claudius keeps his major force back. We're told later on in 8043, a second wave comes over and Claudius arrives with elephants, he makes a big prestigious arrival in southern Britain. I think that's the invasion force. That's the major attack on Britain. The first stage sent over in 8043 with all of Plautius who's a Roman senator commanding it. That's the equivalent for a UN peacekeeping force to try and establish order to get some kind of useful information reinstate Verica. It could be at that stage job done. Claudius could go back and claim a victory without actually leaving a garrison in Britain. Right. I've got to challenge you there. I know, but no, I want to believe the West Sussex theory because I grew up in the register. But I mean, I'm sure people will be shouting, well, what about Richborough? What about the fact that they then build a monument to large there later, almost to get rid of that way? Richborough, in Kent is very early Roman fortification. Absolutely. And it does fit within the less of mid-forties AD.

31:45I think what we're looking at there is where Claudius lands. OK. So the second wave with all the reinforcements with the elephants, he's going for the shortest crossing from northern France to Britain. So that's where he is landing once southern Britain has been secured. So I've got no doubt that that is part of the invasion plan, but that's not where all of us Claudius and his troops land in the first stage. We are told, essentially, they're going to protect Verica. Verica's at Silchester, you don't land in Kent if you're going to be going over to sort of Hampshire, Barxia area. And one of the first stages of the campaign we're told that the Baduani or the Debonni are tripping Gloucestershire surrender to the Romans. Why is a tripping Gloucestershire surrendering to the Romans if they land in Kent? If they land in Sussex and the Marching North, they're on those fringes. So I think from the limited literature, I mean, we're never going to know for sure, unless in sort of Pompeo-Herculeanian, some amazing scroll turns up, which tells us word for word what happened in AD 43.

32:46We're never going to know for sure. But my feeling is there are two stages to the invasion. The second stage, the big one with Claudius and he's retinue that lands in Richbury and Kent, but the earlier stage is closer towards Chitista. Yeah, Mars, that's all good. I've got to challenge you because that means you can explain your arguments as you've just done. So we're, you know, everyone's a winner. I mean, let's say we're never going to know for sure, but that's, I think, makes sense of the limited sources that we've gone. So let's say that this advanced force lands in West Sussex, maybe somewhere near Chitista. Karataka's, he's not just sleeping as this goes along. How does he resist this Roman invasion? It's really annoying because the text that we got for Cassius Diode is garbled. He says, the Britons don't come to hand. So the Romans arrive and there's no formal opposition. Perhaps Karataka's overplayed his hand, perhaps he felt that Rome would never invade, but there's no kind of organized opposition to the Britons, to the Romans as they land.

33:46It might be that they're effectively landing in relatively friendly territory, what's formally varicose lands. So they're not receiving a sort of a major military force trying to kick them out. So they've got a foothold. That's Karataka's big mistake if he wants to hold onto power is he allows the Romans to land. All of us, Plortius, who's commanding the Roman forces, we're told that he, effectively he negotiates, he discusses with Karataka's and his brother, Toggedumnas. There's perhaps to try and resolve this argument between them. It's quite clear that what we see later, that Toggedumnas is the favoured candidate from the Roman side. So it might be that he's the older brother. Right, I can ask that. He's the legitimate heir and Karataka says the upstart is the younger brother who's trying to create his own kingdom. From what we can see later, Toggedumnas seems to be the one that Claudius favours. So the initial stages of AD 43 seem to be a conflict resolution.

34:47And it seems to be largely resolved, but then things start unraveling. Karataka starts kicking up a problem, is perhaps refuses this decision and makes trouble. And the Romans then have to go and march and find him out. And to basically attack him, imprison him to get him out of the picture, because he's refusing to go back quietly into civilian life. And is this when we get these early river battles? Yeah, I mean, this is another problem. That's, Cassius Diode says there are two river battles. Now some have suggested that if he lands in Kent, which of course we're disputing, then the first major river they come to is the river Medway. If you go to the Medway now near Rochester, there is a nice little stone monument that says here the Romans crossed and there was a battle in Karataka. There's no evidence for that at all. It just happens to be a big river that's between Richborough and the Thames. The second battle Cassius Diode actually mentions it as the Thames.

35:49He doesn't say where on the Thames it is, but both battles that he mentions are played out exactly the same way. The actual nature of the conflict is, it's, I mean, it's Emily Possible. We're seeing the same battle tactics at both rivers or what Cassius Diode is doing. He's got evidence for the same battle from two different accounts and he thinks it's two separate events. He's done that before a lot of the times when you look at his, he's confused by original source and he just goes, yeah, that will do. And he sort of, he puts two separate events. I think there's definitely one river battle and I don't think the river made way actually exists as a conflict. I think what Cassius Diode has done is he's taking these two different accounts of the same event and made them two separate conflicts. But the battle in the Thames is the key one because what always annoys me when you see, it shouldn't do, but it does. Whenever you see films set in the ancient Roman past, is you see the Celts, the Britons, the Goals.

36:49Everyone's got a sword, everyone's got chainmail, everyone's got to helm it. They haven't. Britons would be very poorly armoured. Only the warriors or the monarchs would have swords, very few would have any kind of armor. Most would have sticks or slingsdones. The sling is like the big weapon, the sling and the spear, they're the big weapons of archbishop. They really are. But conflict resolution in our age, Britain seems to be between champions. It's small scale skirmishing, it's small, it's a more civilized way, I guess, of sorting your problems out. The Romans don't do that. They send armies in. Our Legion is five and a half thousand, heavily armed psychopaths. They're massively armoured, they're trained to kill. They serve for 25 years. There's no way a British army can fight against that. Even just one Legion, Caratarchus knows that in an open battle they're going to get completely annihilated. So what he does, the two major battles that we get from one of the Thames and one in Wales, is he tries to put a natural obstacle in front of himself and the Romans. So he's on the north bank of the Thames.

37:49The Romans got across to get to him. If they go across the river, many of them were drowned. Many of them won't be able to use their weapons effectively. They're trying to crawl out the other side, being slaughtered, having sling stone at them as a cross. And we have to remember that the Thames was wider, it was more wild back then as well. That is a really difficult obstacle to cross. It is. It's been nicely kind of canalized and controlled in the last 200 years. And as you say, as mud flats, there's marshes, it's really difficult. The Britain's now to get across the Romans don't. So we can imagine all of his plorties on the south side. Caratarchus is on the north. He's got a real problem of how do I get across this river without losing my initiative, without losing my army. Now Cassius Dio says, and this is the problem in his text, he says, the Romans decide to send Keltoy across Keltz. Now a lot of recent historians have really suggested that what he's saying is he's sending Roman auxiliaries. Roman soldiers who've been recruited from another part, a Celtic part of Europe, they're trained across rivers.

38:49But he doesn't say auxiliaries, he doesn't say Romans. He's using the term Keltz, I think, because these are friendly natives. They know the river crossings. They know how to get across the Thames. And they're on the Roman side. And later in the battle, he says that Toggo Dumness, his army, basically of army of Keltz crossing the river, they start. They are ambushed, they are being torn apart. And I think what we're really seeing is that Toggo Dumness, the brother of Carotarchus, is on the Roman side. He's been supported by Rome. He knows how to cross the river, where to cross the river. His soldiers get across. It's basically brother against brother. I mean, the Romans love that kind of. Ever since Romulus and Remus, they've got lux and lots of stories, or brother fighting brother. So it's a fraternal, it's a brotherly conflict that we're seeing. But it's Toggo Dumness, who helps the Romans crossing the river. He and Carotarchus are fighting this conflict management is really getting out of control. The Romans now find rather than sorting the situation out, the whole of southern Britain

39:53is in uproar, tribe against tribe. And all of us plaudious doesn't have the manpower, doesn't have the resources to deal with this. He sends a message to Claudius, police and reinforcements. Claudius is in Gaul at that time. He then arrives with more legions, the Praetorian guard to protect him, elephants, because he does everything in style. And that's when it becomes a full-scale invasion, because they realise they've got a stamp on Carotarchus massively. He can't be dealt with by this small first-stage investigation of the invasion. But that's interesting, mention Toggo Dumness on the Roman side. That very much aligns with your argument you've mentioned earlier, because the traditional view isn't it that Carotarchus and Toggo Dumness almost kind of their forces are together at the Thames and they're resisting the Romans. But as you've already mentioned, this kind of strife between them, this conflict for power, actually you look at Toggo Dumness, Toggo Dumness and actually, is it his forces that the Romans are using to get across the Thames? Is it his local knowledge? I think it is.

40:54I think what Cassius Dyer is saying, whenever he uses the term Celts, he's talking about friendly Britons. And when it's barbarians, it's the angry, violent enemy Britons. So it's Carotarchus and the barbarians, it's Toggo Dumness and the Celts. And I think it is that kind of conflict that we are really seeing. And that's what all of us, Plutius, can't resolve. And Claudius then decides, right, we're going to have to just go in there with mass troops and just deal with this as hugely as we can. We're going to have to involve ourselves in regime change and do they? Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think we know that later in AD 43, Claudius arrives. The traditional view that we get is that all the fighting's been done by this stage, and it's just a case of putting his stamp on the conquest. Yes, he arrives in London, only spends 13 days in Britain to grab the culture stone and back down and he's gone. He's just there to receive the surrender of the Britons. But I think the description that we get is that he arrives with massive reinforcements. And I think that is the real sense that the Emperor is coming to the rescue.

41:54He's like this of the Union Canvary in a Western. They arrive at the end to save the day. And I think this is what he's doing. And of course, he gets to be at Adulation for that. But we do hear that there is a battle outside of Colchester that he is involved in. And I think it's Colchester, the major capital of Canabalena, obviously by now dead. But that is perceived by the Romans to be the centre of resistance. That is the site that needs to be captured. So it's the Trinavantes tribe around Colchester. They're identified as the enemy. They're the ones that are stamped on. They're the ones that are subjected. Whereas the cat of Elorney, just to the west of those around St. Orbins, they're treated as friends and as allies. So it could be where I'm seeing the Toggedumnas Caratarchist division between those two tribal groups. Interesting. And Caratarchist, do you think he's fighting outside of Colchester? He's trying to lead the resistance to stop the Romans? I'd like to think, sadly, if there's no evidence, Cassius Diode doesn't tell us what happens after the Thames crossing.

42:54I think if he's got any sense, Caratarchist would flee westwards because Colchester, Camila Dunham, is not a defendable position. It's got lots of bloody earthworks and ramparts around it. It's great if you're fighting an enemy who's coming towards you with chariots and poorly armed Celtic warriors. If you've got four legions marching towards Colchester, there's no way you can defend that. So he would think, I've got to get out of here. I'm going to try and fight the Romans on my kind of terms rather than if you're defending Colchester, you're dead, basically. There's no way you can stop that. So I think Colchester is abandoned. Claudius goes in, he receives the surrender we're told of at least 11 British monarchs and the conquest of the south is secure. I think the issue there is that all the tribal groups around Caratarchist's territory thinks, well, the Romans are sorting him out. Let's be friends with them. He's our enemy. Let's be friends with his enemy and we surrender to Rome. That's a good thing because Caratarchist's out of the picture.

43:56Rome is bringing peace and stability. That's a good thing. But the story is not over as we'll get to next year. Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like and that's exactly what growth therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. In the description, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US, offering

44:57both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash acast. That's growtherapy.com slash acast. Growtherapy.com slash acast. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Are you looking for the perfect podcasts to hunker down with during the longer, colder, darker nights? Well, look no further than the award-winning After Dark, myths, misdeeds and the paranormal with me, Maddie Pelling. And me, Anthony Delaney. We are historians and love all things gloomy and macabre. From Tudor executioners, an ancient Egyptian death rituals, to which trials and folklore feel transported back in time on After Dark, out every Monday and Thursday, wherever you

46:01get your podcasts. And guess what, we're also now on YouTube. After Dark, a podcast from History Hit. Marz, here's a surprising, controversial question. Toggy Dumness. Yeah. Is he still alive at this point? I think so he is. I mean, Cassius Diode is a very, very garbled paragraph where he basically says the, the Toggo Dumness is destroyed, but the tribes of the area stand together with him by his side against the barbarians. Now people have felt that's really, if Toggy Dumness is fighting the Romans, then to save it, he's destroyed must mean he died in the battle. But Cassius Diode doesn't say that, he's a really complicated paragraph, but he says that

47:01the Britons stand together by his side against the barbarians. So I think what we're seeing is Toggy Dumness is army having crossed the river, they're ambushed, they are partially destroyed, but other groups are standing. Toggy Dumness is the Roman ally. Caratarchus is the enemy. Cassius Diode is missing that critical point and he doesn't know how to describe the battle. He describes it very, very badly in a very garbled way. He doesn't really care. I don't think his audience cares that much either. But it's annoying that Tacitus, who's the more primary source, his version of the invasion is lost to us. So anyone who finds that will resolve the whole situation and we know exactly what happens. But I think Toggo Dumness doesn't die in that battle. But what's interesting is just as he disappears from that account, a chat called Toggy Dumness appears in West Sussex and he is credited as being great king of the Britons. Their name forms are so similar and that the one disappears as the other appears. I think they're the same person.

48:02I mean, I've got confused to the names already. I think I said Dumness rather than Dumness. So I think that kind of aligns with the thing. They're very similar names. They are. Could be the same person and that's the reward he gets. Yeah, absolutely. And Tacitus later is very, very sneering about Toggy Dumness because he says he's an agent. He basically he enslaves his own people because I think Tacitus likes the great honorable barbarian who goes down fighting. He doesn't like the ones who are like a quizzling one who surrenders wholeheartedly to Rome. And Toggy Dumness as Toggo Dumness, I think they are somebody who's on the Roman side. They are rewarded after the invasion because they've so greatly helped the emperor Claudius. So one brother is on the Roman side. The other brother is stubbornly fighting this war of resistance against Rome because they feel they've got nothing less to lose. If they surrender to Rome, they're going to die. So Caratarchus feels all I've got to do is just keep fighting. And as I move westwards, I'll stir up all the tribes in the west. Tell them about the issue that Rome faces and how we all got to stand together and fight.

49:03Trey Briefram mentioned Toggy Dumness. The reward he seems to get is the largest residential palace north of the Alps. Is Fishborne Palace? Exactly. I mean, we don't know for sure that he lived there, but I think the fact that Fishborne Palace is next to Chidrister where big inscription is set up to the great King of the Britons, it will be very unlikely if he wasn't connected in some way with Fishborne. And Fishborne's not the only, there's at least seven other palace sites in West Sussex of the same date. So I get the kind of feeling that Toggy Dumness and all of his sort of family are being rewarded by this huge gift, financial gift, they're living in palaces, they are given sort of a, well, basically they've given Claudius power, they've given him legitimacy, they've given him the victory that he craved. And there's no reward big enough for him to give to them. So I think it's very likely that Fishborne is a reward to this great Britain who has served Rome so well. Fair enough. Well, that's one King of the Britons, but of course there's the other brother, there's Caratarchus, also King of the Britons, and he continues fighting.

50:06As you say, he goes westwards and we've already mentioned how kind of that, that southern and eastern part of Britain is more connected to the Roman world. But the further west you go is that more the kind of the Wild West, the more distant part of the country that the Romans know less about. It is that the Romans know far less than Julius Caesar, obviously, was just involved in Kent and around the Thames. Rome, the Mediterranean world has been trading with Britain for some significant time. They're aware of the metal resources, the tin and the lead in the West country, but they've got no, there's been no real official contact between Rome and that area. There's been no trade materials coming in. So the further west you go, the less likely that the monarchs there, the leaders are minting coins, the less likely they're aware of what Rome has to offer them. So Caratarchus in moving west is moving into a less obviously Roman or sort of... It's a territory beyond the orbit of the Roman Empire.

51:08So his problem is going to be moving in that direction, trying to persuade them that Rome is a threat and that Rome is coming for them. I mean, in fact, the Rome is coming for him. Wherever he goes, he's like the Assama bin Laden of the... Of the... of that period. Wherever he goes, the Romans will follow. They will fill the wars not over unless they capture this particular person and either killed him or bought him to trial. So he is trying to persuade the various tribes of the West that they need to fight Rome, but without telling them that the only reason Rome's coming in that direction is because of him. So his public enemy number one, and how long is it before the Romans do decide we've got to get this guy? We've got to keep chasing him. We've got to expand. I think, yeah, I mean, it's annoying, but the Cassius Steyer's account of the invasions that comes to an end, Tassitus has begun, there's a gap between the two of them. But it's very clear that something is going on in the West country that Caratarchus has arrived in South East Wales. There's a tribe there, the Siloeris. And he's encouraging them to attack Roman territory,

52:12particularly the debunny of Gloucestershire Silences, that area. Who would, you know, kind of given up to Rome very quickly? Who surrendered to Rome, gone wholeheartedly over to the Roman cause, probably because they didn't like Caratarchus, and they wanted Roman security. But somehow he's persuaded the Siloeris to attack the Romans too and taggerize them. He's trying to draw them into South Wales. This is of a mountainous territory. It's less open, it's less good for a Roman army to build forts and to control. So he, I think he's trying to bring them into a place where he can wear them down. This is kind of asymmetric warfare, guerrilla warfare. He can attack Roman troops when on the march, when they're isolated, when they're trying to forage. That's his ultimate strategy is to wear them down. And probably like with Julius Caesar, this idea of convincing Rome, it's not worth holding on to Britain. We have to leave. And that I think is his ultimate game is to destroy it as many Roman troops to make the war seem unsustainable, expensive, and to persuade Claudius

53:12or one of his later successors to leave. And how successful is this type of warfare for carotarkers? Because you mentioned you got, let's say if there's one legion, you got over 5,000 Roman psychopaths in heavy armor, but I say going into the more mountain, the inland area of Wales to try and hunt this guy. How successful is carotarkers in those environments? I think it's very successful. Tassar to sort of says rather begrudgingly of the many successes of carotarkers without going into too much detail. But I think in southern Britain, you've got relatively lowland landscape, you've got big, iron age centres of occupation. Rome can attack those, it can negotiate with kings or queens or big leaders. In Wales, the situation is far more fragmented. You have got tribal identifiable groups, but there aren't big centres of power. Settlements are quite scattered. Rome's got nowhere to attack. And it can find itself sort of cut off in sort of valleys in the various, different sort of highland zones.

54:13So it's the kind of territory that Rome's not happy being in. So from carotarkers' point of view, as I've heard, expert strategist is the perfect place to set up camp. What we don't know, of course, is how he persuades the Silois to accept him as their leader, because he's from southeast England, he's from that sort of general area. We're moving a whole series of tribal groups. We're presuming they've got the same kind of customs and language and so on. But he's arrives at their door and says, basically, take me on as your battle leader. The Romans are coming and you don't want to mess with these guys, but I thought them. I know how to deal with them. And it's that kind of, he must have been extremely charismatic individual to persuade people that he's right, because he's effectively saying, you need to burn your crops, you need to burn your settlements, you need to hide, and we'll attack them on the mark. It isn't a very heroic way of doing things. So you're trying to persuade people, A, there's an enemy coming, we can't fight. But B, I want you to destroy everything. Yes. And to go on the run with me. So how he does that, we don't know.

55:14But he does. And it's a very effective from that point of view, because Rome cannot deal very well with that kind of guerrilla warfare. So hit and run ambushes, I guess also attacking Roman supply trains. If, as mentioned earlier, the Romans also really want that mining. They want materials like lead and silver that they get from Wales. And we've already known that those materials were there. So they're trying to kind of, I guess you can imagine some Romans, they're trying to cozy up to certain leaders in Wales who have access to those resources. But then Caratarchus will likely know that as well. So his band of warriors will be attacking any Roman attempts to try and get lead and silver out of Wales at the same time. So it's being a real nuisance. It absolutely, exactly. And I think the problem for Claudius, the emperor, is that he didn't have to invade. I think the first stage was trying to establish peace in Britain. Having invaded, he now has to establish a garrison. And he needs Britain to be financially viable. So therefore, yes, you do need the gold of Wales. You do need the lead of the men dips. You do need the tin of Cornwall as a resource for the empire.

56:18And Caratarchus is now in the way. So you need to persuade the people of Rome that the wind Britain is over. You could only do that by bringing Caratarchus in chains or by show up proving he is dead. But you also need to get rid of him. So you can access those metal resources. So Claudius is now in a very difficult position. He's got no choice but to pursue the war and to send his soldiers into an environment where they don't play very well. And this goes on for several years, doesn't it? I mean, do the Romans decide they have to adapt their strategy to try and counter these, well, this guerrilla warfare by Caratarchus? They do. I mean, one of the, they decide they need overwhelming force. So one of the things that they do is, the 20th legion, that's the still over in Essex at Colchester, over the Trinavantes. They bring them forward. They demolish that base. They turn it into a Roman town. Of course, that becomes the focus of hatred for the Trinavantes and the Cane later, Boudica or Tax Colchester. The 20th legion is brought over to Wales. They're trying to encircle Caratarchus

57:20in sort of the area of South Eastern Wales. He decides he doesn't want to be encircled. He needs to break out. We're told he moves the campaign to North Wales to the order of Vickers, which are up in Snowdonia and Anglesy at that sort of area. And he then persuades them to come together. So he's opening up a second front. Later on, after that, he goes to the Briganties in Yorkshire and tries to open up another third front. So I think it's all this, he doesn't want to be surrounded, but he's trying to encourage all the Britons of the Western part of the island to fight the Romans. You've got to bear in mind there's no sense at this time of national identity. Every tribe's got its own leaders, its own religion, its own cultural footprint. So trying to bring them together as a single force is difficult if not impossible. But Caratarchus has to do that if he's going to kick the Romans out of the island. And how successful is he? Initially very successful because the Romans now have to dive out there marching into South East Wales. They now have to turn round and go up into Snowdonia,

58:22which is a far more mountainous train, far more difficult. It's at that point that Caratarchus makes a decision to fight another battle. We're all interesting, okay. He's got overly confident, should we say? Possibly. I think also he needs to show the tribes that he can win. At that stage, all he's basically doing is persuading them to burn their crops, persuading them to hide, and he's inflicting losses on the Romans, but it's small scale, it's lots of these sort of ambushes. They kind of heroic ideal in Iron Age, later Iron Age literature is this idea of warriors and fighting. Now he knows he can't fight the Romans on their terms, but he needs to choose a battlefield site where he can draw them in, where again, that's a series of natural obstacles, where he can then wear their forces down, and that will bring all the tribes of an north part of Wales together to see, yes, he is a good leader, yes, he can fight the Romans. So it's a big gamble. I think in an ideal world, he wouldn't want to fight that battle,

59:23but he's left with no choice. He has to prove that he is a great military leader. It is a pretty epic battle, though, isn't it? Tell us about this. Gosh, it's not a final stand, but it's the climax. It's the great clash. It is, and what's always intrigued me is that Tassadus describes this battle. It's one of the few battles he describes where he doesn't mention the body count. Usually at the end of it, like battle it's Budicay, he tells you, tens of thousands of Britons are dead, only sort of 260 Romans. He doesn't do this here, and I think it's because Karatakis managed to pull his army out when the battle goes the Romans way. So we're told, we're not top-resisting, where it is, but the geographical description is that the Romans arrive. There's a river in front of them again. They've got to try and cross it. And all the slingshots raining down from the Britons against them. Having crossed that river, they then got to go upslope towards Karatakis and his army. And the Britons have built a series of walls, which I think force the Romans into a narrower, a narrower point, much like in the Tudorburg forest,

1:00:26the Germans there, built a series of walls and fences to push the Romans into an area where they can be effectively ambushed and destroyed. That's what Karatakis is doing at this battlefield site. But he's positioned his forces in a way that they can retreat. If the Romans gain control of the hill, the Britons can melt away as quickly as possible, because he doesn't want us to become a massacre. So the Romans initially under a story a scapula, he's the new governor of Britain at that time. They cross the river with difficulty. Last numbers of Romans go down in the river drowning, but also with slingshots. Having crossed that we're told, they form a Tudesto, the Sites, you know, the shields, like a tortoise, you know, they're protected by their shields. So the Britons slingshots are bouncing off the shields. The Romans slowly climb the hill, they start to tear down the walls. And at that point, having inflicted losses against them, Karatakis realizes the game is up. And he orders his soldiers to abandon the battlefield site. That's very difficult thing to do,

1:01:27because you're dealing with lots of different tribal groups, but like sort of colladen or this sort of later battles in Highland, Scotland, lots of different clans, each with their own identities, each with their own idea of what heroism is, each perhaps with their own sense of wanting to fight the Romans and being told, no, let's run away. That's not a very heroic ideal. So I think probably a larger number of Britons die there than he had wanted. And we're told that his wife and his daughter sadly are named by Tacitus. We don't get any names for them, but they're captured by the Romans. So I think the Romans advance far more quickly than he was hoping. He gets away, and shiver us, you know, he gets away, but his wife and daughter are captured, but he lives to fight another day. So the Romans have won, but it's a bit of a peric victory in that they've had significant losses, and they haven't quite established the single climactic bloody victory that they'd hoped for. Gosh. It kind of sounds a bit similar, like, oh, I'm in Ysynthesnelder though as well, doesn't it?

1:02:28Yes, it really does. And I think the thing is that we talk about Caratacus losing the battle. I mean, technically, yes, he does, but the Roman conquest of Wales still takes another 25 years. So this is not a conflict that is resolved in one day. No. And I think it is a loss, but it's a strategic loss. And at that point, Caratacus, we're told, moves to Yorkshire to the Brigantes, ostensibly to open up a third front. And it's then just trying to bring a war to the whole of Britain so that the Romans find this is completely unsustainable. And the Roman conquest of Wales, I mean, Caratacus is very much kind of chapter one in it. It will very much go on, as you say, for a few decades more. Yes. And there's more guerrilla fighting as different troops. And then the Romans have to adapt. And I think that's when they bring in like Eastern Europeans, that Thracians and Dations and they're like, who are more used to the guerrilla fighting. Yes. But that's another story in its own right. Caratacus is just the start. And I think he starts, he I think he convinces them how to fight. And they do it extremely well. And you write, there's another 25 years before Wales is fully subjugated.

1:03:28So it's Caratacus that begins that conflict. But it certainly not ended by his defeated north Wales. I wish I had more time, but we, but there was, of course, there's the Brave Heart style speech that he gives isn't there before the battle, which is kind of linked to all the, like Budak has one, Calgakus has one, the Romans like kind of giving a big kind of speech to the freedom fighter leader who is opposing the Romans and Caratacus is the same. He does get one, yes. But in a sense of with Tassadus, I think, yeah, he's never, I mean, it's very unlikely that the Romans were there to document exactly what their enemy was saying. But most Roman historians give the, a pound, the opportunity to sort of muse on liberty and freedom. So yeah, you're right. It's that sort of kind of Brave Heart sort of shouting for freedom. We need to win this battle to have victory with the Romans. And so Caratacus gets that sort of bit of a speech. But it's not the climax of Tassadus' account because he saves that. There's another climax coming once he is captured.

1:04:29And let's cover that now. So he wants to open a third front in Yorkshire with a brigandes. He's not giving up Caratacus. But this time, his attempts to convince the leaders to join him and to resist the Romans, it doesn't work out quite as well. No, the brigandes have a very large territory. So it might be a whole series of different clan-based groups. We're told their leader is an individual called Cartimandra. And Cartimandra, as Queen of the Brigandes, is on the Roman side. The brigandes have been kept out of the conflict at this stage. We know there's lots of Roman trade goods coming into their territory. So it might be they've been paid off. That Rome is not going to invade them. And he wants the brigandes to be stable and quiet and content whilst they focus on getting rid of Caratacus in Wales. So essentially, when Caratacus turns up on Cartimandra's doorstep, she's not going to be very happy. And I think Cartimandra has a very bad deal as far as history goes,

1:05:30because most people view her as a quizzling, as a traitor, because she hands Caratacus over to the Romans. The contrast to Boudica almost that people always say. Yeah, but I think even Boudica was on the Roman side to begin with until she's treated very badly by Rome. But I think Cartimandra, we can't think of her as part of this big pan-British collective. She's got her own tribe, her own people. She views Rome as a threat. Therefore, she's happy being friends with them. Caratacus is somebody who's going to whip up resistance and rebellion. If he stays in her lands, the Roman armies will follow, and they will cause devastation. She doesn't want that. For her survival and for survival of her people, she has to hand him over. And of course, that bolster's her position within the Roman Empire. So I think effectively, she hasn't got a very easy decision to make. He arrives, capture him, send word to a story, a scapula of the governor. We've got your guy, a story scapula, fantastic. You know, the war now is over. He can send dispatches to Claudius to say,

1:06:31we've got the resistance leader. You can now save at the conquest of Britain is complete. It's always interesting with the Bougainte's and their links to Rome because with new archaeology, it's showing that kind of their centres like Stannic. There is clear Roman contact there. It's not like, further west in Wales with the Silhoues, where there's much less Roman contact. There is clear Roman influence at that time, Roman traders and so on. So that I guess that's another string to the bow, saying that why, you know, Cotman would not want to join Caratacus because that Roman influence is much clearer there than it was further west. But and as you say, it all links in with the fact that she does hand over Caratacus. They've now captured him. And can we say that he's the last kind of an independent king of the Britain's? I think so, yes. In the sense he's the last one to actively fight against the Romans and to understand how their armies work. So in the sense that that booty girl, obviously, bit later fights another war against Rome. But at that stage, she is a client,

1:07:31she and her husband, Presetarcus. They are friends with Rome. They are allies. They are on the Roman side. So he's the last leader that we know of who is really stirring up resistance against the Roman state. So he effectively is the last free king of southern Britain. So let's get to the epilogue. There is one last part to Caratacus' story, isn't there? Normally for these enemies, these figureheads that have caused Rome so much trouble for so many years and are finally captured, they're brought back to Rome, heraded and then ceremonially executed. It doesn't feel like Caratacus has a good end in store, especially as he also is, his family's been captured as well. But how does it actually play out for him? It plays out very well for him. But it also plays out very well for Claudius, because as you said, you quite to say that Newtie Barberian leaders form part of a great triumphal possession

1:08:32and they're then ceremonially executed. Very significant. Very significant. After Julius Caesar's campaigns, a couple of years later, he is ceremonially strangled, grottied at the end of that celebration. So at that stage, Caratacus, as somebody who's fought Rome for 10 years, doesn't know what the future is going to be crucified, is he going to be phoned into the arena, is he going to be strangled? We don't know what's going to happen. But Claudius, I think, he's the arch stage manager of events. He wants to present the conquest of Britain as a great military achievement, a kin to some of the Julius Caesar and all the kind of earlier Roman generals. So he stage manages this huge procession with all the captured trophies and prisoners of war and soldiers bearing full arms through the city of Rome. And right at the end, we're told we've got Caratacus, his family and immediate retainers are brought forward as part of this procession. And right in front of Claudius and the imperial revenue,

1:09:35we're told that Caratacus gives a speech. Now Tassadus gives that speech in whole. Obviously, it's the first time that a Roman audience is hearing a Britain speak where in battles, someone on a hill shouting it's true, you've no idea what they're saying. So Caratacus is giving the speech in Rome. It may be a speech that Claudius wrote for him. It may be that he composed it himself. But it basically sort of saying, you know, why do you envy our mudhuts when you've got the city of marble? I had plenty of things to lose. That's why I resisted. But if you kill me now, basically I'll be a nobody and you'll be a nobody. But if you let me live, if you show me clemency, then you're the bigger guy and all this. And Claudius knows that very well because not only is Claudius trying to show that he is better than Julius Caesar militarily because Caesar went to Britain twice, achieved nothing. Claudius has gone and has conquered the island. So he's saying, I'm better than Caesar in military terms,

1:10:37but I'm a better person as well because I don't kill my enemies. I forgive them. And so he shows clemency to Caratacus, we're told that the chains are struck from him. He's given his freedom. He can't leave Rome. So not much of it. It's effectively house arrest. But we're told there are wild celebrations there because Claudius is showing he's a better human than Julius Caesar ever was. So we now got the situation where Caratacus and his family are residents in Rome. So they're given citizenship as well, do we think? Well, we don't know. That's where I haven't given that big speech. It goes quiet. So we don't know. We know there are lots of Britons in Rome at that time. There are lots of juvenile and other writers at the time often it's quite sneering about these world-painted barbarians in their midst. But it's quite clear they are there. There's probably a part of Rome or one of the cities nearby, which is given over to these hostages. But that's where Caratacus, as far as we know, lives out his days as a guest of the Emperor. I trophy it at the same time I guess as well.

1:11:38But it's given a house, you know, with his family, just got adjusted to the climates. Yes. Maybe compared to Toggedumnus with Fishborne Palace or Toggedumnus, which has no good kind of stuff with that kind of southern Britain climate. Maybe you got the better deal in the end. Yeah, perhaps. I mean, both brothers, yeah, as you say, both brothers end up quite well. They got retirement homes. On the coast of where Sussex ones in central Italy, I mean, you have to judge which is better. Yeah. Mars, it's such a great story out of Caratacus. And it's also been really interesting to explore various theories about various parts of his story, his resistance to Rome, because there are those big gaps that still survive. But it must have been quite the tale, and he must have been quite the figure to explore in depth in your book, because he deserves his time in the spotlight. I think he does. He's very much a forgotten character. And I think, you know, in the early medieval period, he's still remembered, he resonates down lots of early Welshed inestes claim descent from him.

1:12:43He's a figure, William Shakespeare and he writes the play Symboline, which is about Kinneberlinus. We get Caratacus appearing in there. So he's very much remembered. I think by the beginning of the 20th century, he's associated with sort of the rising of Welsh identities taken on board as a Welsh resistance leader. He's linked also with recruitment at the beginning of the First World War. So he gets to kind of negative publicity because of the kind of deaths that occurred by the Welsh mining villages and towns who sent troops over there as part of this great heroic Celtic adventure. So I think his publicity, his heroism, his stories on the way by the beginning of the 20th century, at a point that Budica is on the up. So Budica gets picked up by suffragette. She gets picked up by a civil rights movement. She's perceived more as an heroic character. And you really can't move for stories about Budica today because she's quite rightly so.

1:13:44But she's a very celebrated character where Caratacus is forgotten. He's the primary resistance leader, but he's somebody for whatever reason, politically socially, he has been largely ignored. Until now. Until now. With your book and your book is coming out, is it called? It is called Caratacus Great King of Britain. Great King of Britain, Maaz. He just goes by Bloom's breath. Maaz, it just goes me to say, thank you so much for taking the time to come in the show. Thank you. That was fun. So get back to this friday for the biggest food market. That's how it's going to be, and I'll put it here. Thanks so much for joining us on The Anciens today. I hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you are loving The Anciens, then why not become a history-hit subscriber. As a subscriber, we will have access to hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Plus, early access and add free podcasts. Hey, it's your ceiling vent, so I'm dripping.

1:14:51Could be the rain. Could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed or does he just don't allow her? Listen to your home. Go with Thumbtack. Upload a photo or voice note and we'll diagnose your project and match you with the right pro for the job. Thumbtack. We know homes. Hire the right pro today. Having the right people in your corner for life's biggest milestones makes all the difference. Like a friend who's there when you're house hunting or checking out a new ride. State Farm is there too, helping you choose the coverage you need. With a State Farm agent, you know someone is there to help you along the way. And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have helped choosing a plan that fits your needs. So you can continue celebrating all of life's milestones. Head to statefarm.com to get a quote. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.