0:00Of all the podcasts we've had so far, this has been the most listened to podcast with Dr. Neil Nathan. Some of you know him, but he is literally one of the OGs in the integrative functional medicine world. He's been practicing this kind of medicine for 50 years. He was doing the Lyme disease before I was a thing 30 years ago. He's been, uh, for the last 20 years dealing with sensitive patients, which is now just getting to public consciousness. We have a great conversation about the sensitive patients, complicated patients. Why is it so hard to deal with these individuals, especially in states healthcare system? He's a great expert. I've been going to his provider conferences for the last several years. He's a great resource and he is probably one of the, if not the original physician in this world. When the experts get sick, they see him. So I really hope you enjoy this session this podcast today talking with Dr. Nathan. Many people think there's not much difference from 4G or 5G. It's just one. We're talking about a thousand fold increase in EMF exposure from 4G to 5G and now they're rolling out 10G. When that occurred, there was a huge

1:04upsurge of EMF sensitivity. Many of these patients were being accused of being psychological, but what they were experiencing was the sitting of their computer, like you and I are both doing it right now. But if it went on for a period of time, they became brain fogged, fatigued, or developed neurological conditions like pseudo-seasures or Tixle, a variety of things. Welcome back once again, everybody. I'm super excited to be here today with Dr. Neil Nathan. He is a pioneer in the integrated functional medicine world. He's been practicing for 50 plus years. He's got a new book out, a sensitive patient's healing guide, which we'll be kind of diving into a little bit here. Many of you may or may not know. He has some up to a brief overview of who he is, where he's from, and we're just diving into it. So, Dr. Nathan's a seasoned physician. Over 50 years of experience, he's board certified in failure medicine, pain management, needs a founding deployment for the American board of integrative holistic medicine,

2:06and the international society for environmentally acquired illnesses. He's authored several influential books on chronic illnesses in Moltoxis, including healing as possible, healing your body from Moltoxis, the lab disease, and multiple chemical sensitivities. He also wrote the book Toxic, and his most recent book is the Sense of Patients Healing Guide. He's also has done lectures. He's been on Walles today. He actually, the cutting edge of health and Walles today is already an international program that he is on host as well. And this actually, your book came out this past January, so it's been, it was a great read. So, I just want to hop into it. A lot of my people that watch me follow me patients, some of you are, some of you don't, so I want to just kind of start with your story, because you've been in this field for the medicine 50 years. And you've seen the progression of functional medicine, a great medicine from a little autoimmune stuff to these more complex, multi-system, multi-symptom illnesses, because you kind of walk us through your journey from fairly medicine, pain medicine to what you're doing today. Okay, how much time do you have? I'll give you the cliff note version of it. When I went to

3:10medical school, I wanted to be a healer and was more than a bit disappointed when I got to medical school. I realized they were going to teach me to be a medical technician, a good one. But their vision of healing wasn't mine. And to be honest, this was over 50 years ago, I didn't have language to explain what did I think was missing in my education here. But over the years, I realized it was really pretty simple. There was no integration of the emotional and spiritual and energetic components to health into the model that we were being shown. And so I spent 50 plus years trying to figure out a model that works for me and works for my patients. So I've spent, especially in the early years, I spent every set that I made going to study with any who even offered an idea that might have a healing quality to it. And I had some fabulous

4:10experiences with some really wonderful people. And I wasted some money of those weekends where I'm in the wrong place. This person is, doesn't, isn't teaching what he thinks he's teaching. So to be specific to your question. So throughout my career, I have been interested in the outliers that my colleagues didn't know what to do with. I found that a terrific place to grow from. As they challenged me, they made me dig deeper. They made me do research. They made me study harder. And so over the years, I've attracted the more complicated patients and my colleagues were all too happy to send me their really complicated cases. And I didn't view it the way they did. For them, they were a problem. And for me, they were an opportunity to dig deeper. So as those came in truly, I began to see back in my playing clinic, clinic days, I began to see this thing called

5:13fibromyalgia that nobody knew what it was or how to understand it. What medicine does with something that's new is it's in your head until we prove it otherwise. So those folks were referred to psychiatrists for treating, when they didn't work, it didn't do anything for them. So it was obvious to me that something else was causing that we needed to study it. So that was in the mid-80s. By the early 90s, we had begun to learn about things like intestinal dysbiosis and magnesium deficiencies, more complex ways of understanding hormones than most endocrinologists get into. While we began to understand Lyme disease was emerging as something that was important. And as such, we were able to identify very specific causes of fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue and help a lot of those folks. I worked pretty closely with Jacob Tidalbound back in those days and we identified, generally, hundreds of specific biochemical imbalances that could trigger

6:20fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. Over time, it became clear that Lyme disease and its co-infections was a bigger piece than people realized. And Mold Texas City then emerged back around 2005 when Richie Shuremaker published his first Mold Warriors. Richie was onto something. And so I, as I do, I flew to Antelope, to Pokemon, Maryland and hung out with her for a week to study with her and figure out what he was doing. And it was obvious to me that he was identifying a big piece of the puzzle for us all. Historically, that's kind of how I got to where I am. And over the years, the patients that I was seeing began to be more and more sensitive. So more and more patients couldn't take the antibiotics they needed for long. They couldn't take the supplements they needed to treat Mold Texas and they'd become so sensitive that even some homeopathics couldn't be taken.

7:20Their diet became extremely limited. They went to being able to eat a dozen fruits and couldn't do anything else. So I was fascinated by that. And again, just wrote this book that we're going to be talking about today, which is simply called the sensitive patients healing guide. Because in the last 20 years, we've learned a great deal about what makes people sensitive and equally important, how to treat it effectively. So that's the cliff mode version. How I got where I am. Yeah, that's kind of interesting, because I have a similar journey. I've spent, actually calculated, I've spent a couple hundred thousand dollars on my education through different organizations, and A4M, and IFM, and a bunch of stuff and traveling places. And you really have to be dedicated. You've been doing this for decades to really be dedicated to do that over years and years and years. One thing that we're not talking with people, not what you're inside on this, like when I talk with certain people, they're like 30 years ago, 20 years ago,

8:21when I was seeing these all immune complicated patients, it would be something simple like change a diet, antimicrobial or something, and people get better. And now it just seems like the complicated patients are getting more complicated. Have you seen that phenomenon where the patient who you'd, the fibromyalgia patient who'd see 20 years ago, would get better with some diphlu can, or get better if you got out of the multi building, and now you're seeing these people getting, being more complicated. Absolutely. I don't think there's any question about it, is that we call them the canaries in the coal mine. These are very sensitive folks, but I think it's becoming global. It's an epidemic, right? Not just an occasional one. I almost never saw anybody this sensitive 20 years ago, 30 years ago, definitely not 40 years ago. So your observation, I think, is spot on. This is increasing actually fairly dramatically. And I think most of our colleagues are baffled by this. Honestly, I don't know that it's baffling. I think that we know

9:26what's causing it. It's just nobody wants to address it. I mean, what's causing it is the extreme toxicity of the world we live in. We've added over the 50 years that I've been doing this. We've added, it's now estimated 350,000 new chemicals into our environment that weren't there before. And the vast majority have never been tested for for safety and human beings. The numbers have been tested about 500. So it's just a teeny, teeny drop in the bucket. And then we add in electromagnetic exposures never before seen in the history of the planet, what we call EMFs, where we're bombarded. I'm careful you live in the remote areas of Alaska, here bombarded by electromagnetic exposures. Where our bodies are not designed. So I think we know why it's happening, but I'm afraid that the powers that be go, oh no, we need 10 gene now. We don't need 5G. We need

10:28war faster, better, but really looking at the toxicity of what we're exposing every human being on this planet. Yeah, I want to just reiterate what you said that we are in truly seeing. And you've been doing this for a long, long time. You were a referral center decades ago for these complicated patients. You've been seeing patients becoming more and more complicated, more and more sensitive, even as a person who's getting people sent you from around the country. And that's I think an important point because a lot of times, you know, people say, oh no, we're just better at diagnosing things these days. There's more cancer because we're better at diagnosing it or there's more fiber, we're better at diagnosing altism. I mean, I remember I read the statistic recently that if you're an individual in your 60s, the incidence of altism in your populations like one in 40,000, which is a astronomical number. When I was doing my training, I was one in six to 700. Now it's one in like 54. So in some areas, one in 35. What material is that? Oh, several. It mean it's continuing. The altism is increasing exponentially and everyone goes, oh, this is terrible. Why could that possibly

11:32be from without really looking at what's kind of obvious? Sorry, but it is kind of obvious. So that means I mean that altism was extremely where I went to medical school at the University of Chicago, which had at the time, Burrow, Bedelheim's, orthogenic treatment program. He was the only one doing it. There was considered a genetic problem and these were rare. These were genetically rare. And now by these statistics, which we're talking about, two or three of every, they're boring in this country is autistic. So it was a series. That's crazy. So so chemicals, EMF, I don't think you mentioned molding that. What would you say like the big five or six things? You'd say are contributing to this this epidemic of crock health issues, sensitivities, things like that. Well, I didn't mention mold or lime, which are also epidemic. And again, some people don't know that the CDC keeps increasing its admission of how many cases we have a year

12:35back in 2013. For the first time they admitted there were 300 new cases of lime a year. Last year, it was jacked up to 625,000 new cases of mold a year. And so and it's under report. So we're in epidemic. Nobody's reporting mold, but some conservative estimates are the 10 million Americans right now have mold toxicity to some extent. But that's linked to this toxicity, which is our immune system. So being so bombarded that they've gotten weaker. So we are far more vulnerable to infections of every type. So although mold is a toxicity, it starts growing. We get reacting to it. And again, it's our immune system. Then if if our immune system is not robust, being exposed will make us sick. If our immune system is robust, we may be in it, but not react to it. Until we take a hint, whether it be COVID or a surgical procedure or an emotional experience,

13:42death of a loved one, feelings of abandonment, a severe infection of any type. Once that immune system takes a hint, it loses containment. And what we have been exposed to in the past, now jumps in and goes, you'd be the coast is clear. Now I can take over this body. So really, you have to become an expert at not just one thing like a cardiologist or a metallologist or a chronologist. You have to become an expert in environmental health expert. It talks to the expert, developmental pediatric expert, a immune expert. You really have to have this, what I call as an uber generalist. You have to know literally a little bit about everything, but not just a pretty deep knowledge of all these things and how they contribute to people's health. It is, but that sounds kind of overwhelming. I wrote to many of you who can do that. On a doable level, it's you just need to understand that these are very real illnesses. They're not rare. Start looking for it and you're chronically ill patients because you're going to see it. And you don't have to be an expert at it to at least be able to do treatment for mold and

14:47lyre. We don't have the tools yet to be able to measure these environmental chemicals. They're coming, but we don't have it yet. So if we think about a need for detoxification, or something, probably every human being on this planet needs to do, think we could make a dent in that. Now, one thing we're going to talk about here is the sensitive patient. I mean, you wrote your book, The Sensitive Patients Healing Guide. Could you use the fine force like, we say a sensitive patient? Like, what does that mean? Is it someone who just reacts with chemicals? Is it someone with mold? Like, what does it mean? Well, I first want to make it clear that I don't mean sensitive to being told, oh, look, I look, do my thighs look fat in this outfit? That's not. We're talking about the nervous system. No. Words sensitive comes from the word sense, but let's look at our sense organs. Site, hearing, touch, taste, mal. Those are

15:48our senses. So sensitive patients are sensitive neurologically in those areas. So they become sensitive to light. They need to, they can't be outside without wearing sunglasses. If extreme, they have to wear sunglasses indoors. And you might think, well, that's rare. It's not as rare as you think it is. Sound sensitive are sound-sensitive patients junk when they're exposed to a sound that other people in their environment don't even barely notice. They can't be around loud noises or in certain environments. Touch. These folks get very sensitive to the clothes that they wear. They're skinned to people touching them, smell chemicals. These folks become exquisitely sensitive to chemicals so that they can't go down the fragrance aisle in the grocery store without having a severe reaction to it. We have EMF sensitivity where people can no longer spend endless hours on their computer or phone without having cognitive impairment or headaches or extreme fatigue or even

16:54some neurological events. So that's what we mean about sensitivity where food sensitivity, where you can't eat the foods you used to use because they make you sick in a variety of ways. Now, this is a silly question. Is this common or rare? I think when you first hear about it, you just grab it. It's not that common, but things start asking people, do they have food allergies? Do they react with food supplement? Do they have problems with capsules or things? As you start diving into it, you realize there's a lot of people that are sensitive to a lot of different things. Do you have any number? What's the estimate that how many people are dealing with this? It's going to stun you, but it's in the ballpark of 35 million Americans. I'll give you a study not done here in this country, but in England, where they did a elaborate study and found that almost 1% of people in England were on disability because they were a total handicap by their sensitivity.

17:55To some extent, 35% of the English population had become sensitive and were able to quantitative that. There's a researcher named Claudia Miller who's been researching chemical sensitivity in great detail in this country. She has found the numbers to be pretty much astronomical. Again, we're not talking occasional. I think it wasn't actually in your book I was reading the number. I was talking about that. But what fascinated me was that there are countries and governments where they actually recognize and will give people disability for these sensitivities. I've not heard anywhere in our country where people have actually gotten disability for the environmental sensitivity, the chemical sensitivities. Have you heard of that happening here? Have you ever been able to get that here? Is that something that's only being discussed overseas in different countries? I think that people can get disability, but it wouldn't be because of their sensitivity. It would be because of their fatigue or joint pain or cognitive impairment that are symptoms

18:57that accompany the same thing, the inflammation that is the underlying principle of sensitivity will cause those other symptoms. You can get disability for that. At least some states will recognize that. Some states you have to hire a high-powered attorney to get what you really have titled because you're really are disabled. We were actually talking about this briefly before we started recording about, you know, both far experiences. I probably, my deal with patients, I can get some individuals, I'll get them, I'll work with them, they'll get 50, 60% better, but they just get stuck. You get some point and you've dealt with their Lyme, you dealt with their mole, you dealt with their gut issues, all immune, gluten, whatever it is. They just device not healing. Could you talk about that? What keep people stuck? What have you found, like as far as where, in a person's healing process, that the stuckness kind of sits? Well, I think the word stuck is really accurate and it's one that I've used for a long time myself. I think stuck implies there's

19:58some kind of a blockage somewhere. So you can be stuck physically, but you're saying we've already addressed that for some of these people. So the stuck place could be emotional, energetic, or spiritual, or combinations of all of those. And at a certain point, I found with my stuck patients, we've had to come to a place where we have a serious conversation and I'll actually use these words. I'll say, we're stuck. We're not holding any. If there was a place in you that was stuck, could it be spiritual or emotional or energetic and almost all of it? So yeah, I feel like that's the case for me. I feel stuck. And then we can begin to really get into where is that coming from? Is that some experiences in your life that never got worked through somewhere along the line, some trauma that never really got dealt with? And again, one thing that doesn't get looked at much is the energetic, which is, I mean, some of these folks will respond to acupuncture

21:03because it moves energy around the body and stuck places so that then we need to talk about ways of moving energy through the body and ways we do. And just as a, by the way, I don't mean to be the shameless promotion of this. I did write a book before this one called energetic diagnosis, which talks about the energy pieces of that, meaning there are devices that are now on the market that can measure energy that could help move energy through the body in different ways. And for some people, that's the stuck place. I think the biggest place is some type of emotional blockage from some type of trauma. Now, I can start when you're tiny and young or it can any time along a long life where basically the message that you take from your life is, this is a dangerous world that I'm living in and I have to become hypervigilant in order to deal

22:04with it because, and then basically you shut down different systems so that you can go, okay, am I safe? How can I deal with that safety? And I think it might be helpful for us to talk about how that evolves in people because I think that's really important. Every fall, the schedule tightens and most of our attention goes to getting the kids ready. Almost none of it goes to the person holding the whole thing together. So I put together these three things just for that. A daily multivimment and the active forms your body can actually use, Curses to nettles to support your immune and respiratory health without the drowsiness and neck and the sealed system to help you by rebuild its own antioxidant reserve. This is what I take every fall. That's Aaron Harmon MD dot com slash back to school. Well, I just actually, I'm going to transition to that there because one of the things, you know, that the limbic system versus the vagal system and how like the vagal system has two systems as

23:05a dorsal and ventral vagal and how from either Stephen Porgis work, some of Annie Hopper's work, and even they're talking about, you know, my experience has been you've got the big T trauma and little T trauma. You know, we acknowledge the physical, sexual, emotional abuse, big T trauma, but the little T whether to crock illness, whether it's being married to a narcissistic individual, you know, there's a lot of different micro traumas that over time can build up. And then you basically get this dysfunction and your bias neurological integrated part, you know, which isn't your brain, it's in your mid brain. So could you kind of delve into like how you kind of differentiate, you know, looking at some of the vagal stuff limbic system like how does it kind of walk through what, what these scientific words mean as far as, you know, it's kind of marrying the, what you mentioned, like the science with the expression of the people's stuckness. Sure. So we're going to talk about three main systems here, the limbic system, the vagal system, and mass cell activation. Those are the three biggest systems. They're not the only ones that are

24:07the underpinning of almost everyone who's become sensitive. Let's start with the limbic system. The limbic system is the part of our brain that is trying to keep us safe by again, screwing, rising to stimuli that were being exposed to from the perspective of safety. Now our limbic system has been doing that since we were in our mother's uterus. So even in utero, if your mother is going through some sort of extreme difficulty, be it emotional, physical, in you and that uterus are being exposed to those neurochemicals of stress constantly. So you can even get stressed out before you're born. I know we all think, well, being in uterus, floating in this antibiotic fluid and life is wonderful, but not if your mom is going through great upheaval. So it could start then or anytime none of us have had perfect childhoods. I don't know. I haven't seen it. It doesn't exist. So depending on what you had or as a child,

25:11say recurrent ear infections or throat infections or tons of antibiotics or more problematic parents who weren't there for you, they were so busy working that you were just kind of fed for yourself or even worse, abusive, any type, emotional, sexual, physical abuse, surgeries that you may have had any or all of these particular stressors get the attention of our limbic system, which some from an early age, our limbic system is literally getting wired neurologically to be protective, which is I've got to rarely pay attention to what's happening in my world so that I can protect myself from something that happened to me. A simple example would be if you had an alcoholic parent and you knew that they were coming home and walking in the door, they thought, okay, I don't know what shape they're going to be in, so I got to protect myself. And then that goes through the rest of your life, surgeries, childbirth, infections,

26:15COVID, huge stress to the body. So at any given point in time, no matter how old you are, your limbic system is the sole result of the various stresses you've had. Now if you're lucky, some people are, they were minor, and so your limbic system can go, okay, this is a cool world, I like it out here, but for the most of us at some point, it was, I've got to pay attention. So the limbic system becomes hypervigilant and when it becomes hypervigilant, the neurological functions of the limbic system are basically too emotional and sensitivity. So let's take it from a practical point of view. How do you know if your limbic system is messed up? Well, if you have any increase in sensitivity, like sound, touch, food, EMF, smells, chemicals, that's limbic. If you have any emotional upheaval, it could be chronic or it could be an exacerbated one, anxiety, depression, OCD, depersonalization, derealization, mood swings. So one or all of those

27:23symptoms tells us that, okay, there's a lindic piece here that we need to pay attention to. Now the limbic system is crucleotally physiologically interwolded with another system, different part of the brain, which we call the vagal system. Although the word vagus is in it and it refers to the vagus nerve, which is the 10th cranial nerve, it's not just that. It's a whole system of cranial nerves that are interwoven and the two systems basically, they try to keep you safe, not trying to hurt you. But the vagus system gives us different symptoms. So for example, the vagus nerve controls intestinal motility and controls most of intestinal functioning. So any GI symptoms that you have cuts the patient, reflux, diarrhea, abdominal pain, and cramping, lead to have a vagal component to it. The vagus nerve controls the autonomic nervous system. So if you develop the parts or blood pressure fluctuations or palpitations, again, that's vagus. So those are the symptoms that tell us, okay,

28:31we have some vagal dysfunction, we have some lindic dysfunction. And if you have that and all my sensitive patients do, we know we need to work on both concurrently. Because if you have a vagal system and lindic system that is hypervisual and you only work on the lindic system, you're going to stay hypervegial. So you can't have to do both. You mentioned the mast cell, how, because you mentioned how it plays in the mast cell activation syndrome, which is pretty common as well. Okay. So now we're dealing with the trifecta of hypervegial, which is lindic vagal and mast cell. So all three systems are completely interwoven. And we're seeing a profound increase in mast cell activation. Now until 2016, when Larry Aferin's book came out, never been against Acom, we thought that mast cell activation was a rare genetic disorder, didn't see it. And his book was a light for us all in going, oh, wait, this is not rare at all. That one.

29:37Mast, now the lindic and vagal piece is a neurological piece. And so we have to think about it, we're allowed to, it's not psychological, it's neurological. Unfortunately, our very sensitive patients often get curious to get being psychological, which is Baka. I can take the stimulus, and you should be able to take it also. And it's completely ignoring the fact that there are other person's nervous systems going, no, I can't take it. I'm trying to tell you, you're not wired to be able to do that back to mast cell activation. Mast cells are a cellular way of protecting ourselves. And mast cells connect to the nervous system. There are bridge between the nervous system and the immune system. And they look, they're present in every tissue of the body, especially in the tissues of the body, they interface with the outside world because they're in a new cell that's where they protect us. So lining of the sinuses, the throat, the gut, the vaginal tissues, that's where they are most present. And once activated, they release hundreds of biochemical materials that

30:45have loads of symptoms and make us inflamed. So all three systems work together. And we've learned that we need to treat all three systems if someone becomes sensitive. This does a comment, patients who have more toxicity, almost always over time will develop limbic vaginal and mast cell issues. Patients with Lyme disease, co-infections will develop that. In fact, many, many chronic conditions will ultimately reflect itself in that way. So this is not rare. And I'm hoping that people will understand that this is a treatable, fixable thing once you realize what it is to set it in your office. Yeah. It's really interesting. One of the things that kind of intrigued me when I first started studying this was Dr. Muldering's work over in Germany. It said maybe 19% of population had mass activation syndrome. Then from Dr. Schumacher's work, 23% of population has the gene for you know, the mold related toxicity. And you start hearing over and over these these statistics.

31:47All about the same ballpark, hypermobility, which is a part of the pentad super syndrome, probably 20% of the population has some degree of hypermobility. And then you look at some of the data with Dysautonomia. Again, you look in the 15 to 20% ballpark. I just wonder if we're all looking at something similar, but from a different vantage point as a rheumatologist, neurologist, immunologist, we're all actually seeing different expressions of this similar complexity. I think we are. So for example, Andy Maxwell, who's written extensively about this, believes that the hypermobility is directly related to these biochemical mediators that being produced by mass cells, those mediators weaken the ligaments, making us more hypermobile and that the direct recreconnected because we do find when we treat mass cell activation, that hypermobility can can get much better if not completely go away. So for a long time, this hypermobility, which people call ALO's Danlos syndrome, has been looked at as again,

32:51genetic rare. And now we're looking at, no, it's not rare, it's more common. But I think that those numbers that you're quoting are all connected. So mold toxicity produces mass cell activation, recel activation produces hypermobility syndrome. So I think we can start to look at this as being an interconnected. Now, trauma, you know, you kind of alluded to that before. Can we get into trauma a little bit because one of the things, you know, you get in people's story and you might have a story of a bad relationship, family abuse, alcoholism because we adopted all of our kids and one of the things we had to go through is training and we had to read the book, the buy keeps a score and just the act of adopting a child, moving from one house to another, instability when you're developing all of a sudden, you know, my wife is a pediatric occupational therapist. And so early on, I learned, wait a second, you can have trauma from being an ICU, the first four weeks of your life just from, you know, bad, birthing situation. So all of a sudden is trauma. I think we overlook a lot of trauma because we're so focused on the big T, we forget

33:54there's always a little smaller, not less significant ones. How do you help people kind of realize that maybe part of their underlying health issue is trauma because that's one of the hardest things I had I run into trying to walk people through because they're like, well, no, no, wasn't that big of a deal or it wasn't that bad or else such a long time ago. I usually don't bring it up that my first visit. Well, yeah, of course, I'm just just saying that I first have to develop enough with poor with my patient that they perceive my office and need to be a safe space for them to talk about whatever it is they need to talk about because this is often things they haven't talked to any of them or very few people about. And we bring it up in the same context, which is, again, we started with your stock. So let's take a deeper look at your life in terms of are there events that you have gone through that may have contributed to where you are writing.

34:55And I found that the vast majority of patients once we've developed that rapport are much more open to talking about it. And honestly, given my own way of practicing medicine, one of the first tools that I embraced was hypnosis. So I would actually with a patient's permission regress to a point to the various points of trauma that they had experienced in their life so that they could get a quick feel for what were the key events in their life that are contributing to their stock place. And I found that to be a fabulous tool for helping people get there because they they would go there on my own. I would never say, well, that happened to you. So that must have done blah, blah, blah. Patients have to come to that realization of their own when they're ready for that for that perception. One of the things I'm doing more and more now is Steven Porgius for

35:55put our understanding of the Vegas nerve on the man has a new book out. It's called our polyvagal world. Have you seen that Aaron? I'm not, I'm not seeing that book now. Now I love Steven. And in fact, I wrote the chapter in my book on the Vegas with him. I mean, we've been friends for a while now. And but he's an academic. And so if you read Steven's writing, it's really designed for medical professionals who can understand some of the depth of of brain chemistry that's required to get it. Now Steven knows that he's a bright guy. So we had his son Seth to write the book with him, Seth being a world class journalist. And so with Seth's hell, this is a fabulous book for patients to understand what the vagal system is and how it impacts all of us. And it becomes really clear that example, COVID profoundly affected the vagal system of every human being on this planet and added another layer of fear and threat to all of us. And we've all dealt with that

37:02differently. There are some people who are still wearing masks thinking that it helps them. And it's like they they've been taught or told that they need to do that in order to protect themselves. And they're going to protect themselves. And in point of fact, I mean, the CDC just announced that we should be looking at COVID is no different than any viral infection. There's no reason to view it. But we have four years of trauma there. I'm richly waiting. So to take this to another another another place, I think that our education should start in primary school with learning relaxation techniques and how to deal with this from that would be way more useful than I don't know learning the capital of Chikoslovakia and memorizing that because our children are being exposed to incredible amounts of stress. I think more than they have in the past, but not just children. All of us are being exposed to tremendous amount of stress. So my answer to your question, Aaron?

38:06Yeah, it's I guess to round it off like you developed rapport, which, you know, I've had patients who it's taken a year and have two, three years sometimes before we kind of get to a point where it's like this event was a traumatic event or they have a aha moment. And sometimes it's even longer. I've been my wife and I've been married for 20 years and we're 15 years into it when I had the realization that when she started with a law for anxiety and other issues was actually during grad school and anatomy lab, which had a massive formaldehyde exposure. And now I was on top of her having some other trauma related to some family health issues and stuff. And sometimes it takes time in order to have time. You have to have a relationship and people can't like jump in and you have a one off with you and see you three years later. They have to actually develop a relationship with the patient and have that time because sometimes some of these things just take lots of time. Absolutely. I'll give you an example. One that jumps to mine. One of my favorite patients, the light blue young woman, had chronic fatigue syndrome. And I was treating that. She was improving from

39:07not completely getting better until we realized she had mold toxicity restart of looking at mold. And then when we treated mold, she got a bit better. But she was just stuck. She would get to a level of functioning and just thought and this was seven years later. She casually mentioned a visit. Got to worry about things that are casually mentioned that visits. They're not always casual. She casually mentioned that she'd been recently thinking about the time that she was jilted and left at the altar by a fellow that she was going to marry. And all our time together, this is not something she had ever mentioned. It's one of those, oh, that's interesting. Do we think that this might be important? And then she was then for the first time able to be comfortable enough to talk about something that had been absolutely catastrophic for her. And then then she got well. But people aren't ready till they're ready. And sometimes as you're saying,

40:10takes us way more time than we would like or our patients would like, but patients come to a state of readiness where, okay, I really did deal with that. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe the summary of that, this kind of medicine is not just required a ton of glycester tea to the doctor or the desire to get better from the patient. It's a discovery and discovery just takes time many times. And that time who knows how long it takes sometimes. I've taken some of my patients 10 years, but if I see a spark in them, I just know the deep down, I think that being can heal. And I have always been willing to stay with people until until they get to the point that they're really ready to deal with. It's usually an experience that they define this catastrophic. You might look from the outside and go, well, that's not such a bad experience. Yeah. But I don't make that decision. It's their choice from their perspective. This was catastrophic. This changed how I viewed the world. At this

41:15point in time, I decided this is not a safe world. And I've got to really earner myself in order to care with it. And then we have to help people take that arm roll. I want to transition a little bit to some of the details in the book. Obviously, we're not going to talk about your whole entire book. It's a great book. Actually, I thought one of the things I really liked about was you basically found experts in different fields. Instead of you doing it all, you actually brought people in to like dive into there, which I thought was really a great, great way to do it. So I want to just kind of go through some of those sections and hit some things I think people aren't quite as familiar with. And we actually already mentioned EMF a little bit. So I actually want to start there because I feel like that's something where people, it's like even like I was not running my training. No one even hardly mentioned EMF, whether it was A4M, I4M, whether it was other things. It was just like, well, there's fields or whatever. So what is or what are E-Electromagnet fields? Where are they? Where do they come from and how how do they negatively impact our body? Okay. That's a whole long subject. I know. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. That's a book, right?

42:19There are several kinds of EMF so that although we talk about EMF, we should specify what kind we're talking about. So there's the EMF, the electromagnetic waves that we get from cell towers in our environment. There's electromagnetic exposure we get from every electrical device in our house. Electrical devices put out electrical and a magnetic field. And that's just what they do. And then there's the EMF exposure, which is a different frequency. It's not the same thing that we get from our computers, cell phones, all of our computer type devices that are so near and dear to all of us. And then there's one more type which is called dirty electricity. If on the outlets of your home, if it wasn't done properly, it can radiate a fairly strong electrical field there if you don't look at that. So again, this is an epidemic proportion now. It's it's grown as our exposure has grown. You know, 100 years ago, we weren't exposed. And now,

43:25so for example, many people think there's not much difference from 4G or 5G. It's just one. It's right, 4 or 5. We're talking about a thousandfold increase in EMF exposure from 4G to 5G. And now they're rolling out 10G. When that occurred, there was a huge upsurge of EMF sensitivity. And or people call it electro-hypersensitivity. EHS is the technical name to that. So again, many of these patients were being accused of being psychological. But what they were experiencing was the sitting of their computer, like you and I are both doing it right now. But if it went on for a period of time, they became brain fogged, fatigued, or developed neurological conditions, like pseudo seizures or Tixel, a variety of things, headaches, extremely common. And it was reproducible for them. If they did the same thing regularly, yep, I get this every time that happened, sting in. And then if they were to tell their friends about it, they say, well, that's crazy.

44:30I spend eight hours a day on computer. I'm fine. Well, some people are more electrically sensitive than others. Just like some people have a better sense of taste than others, and they become chefs or different perception of wine, and they become wine, catasurage, or whatever. But we all have our own sensitivity. So this is very real. And it adds a whole level of inflammation to what is already an inflamed system for most of our chronic patients. So I urge anyone who has any chronic illness or has even a hint of this to get what we call the electro smog meter, which is simply a little meter can hold it in your hand and tells you what you're being exposed to. So I can hold it in my hand and see how close can I get to my computer without it going off scare or how close can I get to electrocalk in my bedroom, my refrigerator, my microwave, or what am I getting from the cell towers

45:32in my area. So you get an idea of what you're actually getting exposed to. And the matter of what kind of exposure you have, you can block it to a certain extent by getting your devices shielded. So my my Kindle is shielded, my phone is shielded. So my router is way across the room so that I'm not exposing myself at this moment to any significant air map. But a lot of folks need to know about. Yeah. Well, they it's kind of interesting because I think I'm not sure if you mentioned it in your book, but prescription for a healthy home of Bob Banta and those interesting going through that, they talked specifically about during electricity. But one thing I just was really reminded of is that the Russians actually knew about this concept back in the 50s and 60s. This is the idea of illness from electromagnetic fields might be, you know, novel here in America, novel in our consciousness of River in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe in Russia. They've known about this for over half a century. So that's something else I think is important for people to realize. Some of these

46:32things we're talking about are not their novel to us, but not necessarily new. Right. The Europeans have been much more on some of this than rehab. There's a type of electric field that comes out of the earth called a geopathic zone. It's literally a pillar of energy that comes out of the earths. And I know it's going to sound weird, but you can perceive it by dousing it like you were douse of water. Again, many people would view that as a woo-woo type of thing. But in many communities in this country, I lived in Missouri for many years. If you're in a drill, well, you've got a douse to come out to your property and show you where to drill because otherwise you could waste a whole lot of money just getting in the wrong place. But these geopathic zones could affect health radversely. So there are many clags in Germany that will insist that they go out to your home to check it for a geopathic zone because your care certainly because by the fact that you're sleeping in the middle of one and health may involve just moving the bed to the other side of the room

47:36so you're no longer in the geopathic zone. So yes, there's way more that old Shakespeare and Cumber may worse going on in this life than is apparent than your philosophies for ratio. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because some ancient cultures where ancient cities and ancient places where people lived, they actually had somehow they had a knowledge of this and some of these zones, my wife and I were at a clinic in Switzerland and they actually had known like one of these areas over there. So it's really again interesting. This is not new in the historical perspective, it's novel to us here in the United States. We'll talk about it. I want to transition to something that I actually had never ever heard of before until it was actually mentioned in the book and it was actually this thing called spiky leaky syndrome. I actually not heard of that until I was reading and I was like, this is a 100% novel to me. So could you talk about that briefly? Because that was something I was just 100% novel to me as I was going to the book. I first learned about it. In fact, while the book was being written and I held up production of the book to include it because I thought it was important. I heard Andy Maxwell give a lecture

48:41on it. Andy's a pediatrician who has been working with a lot of sensitive kids for a long time and he and his medical partner for over several years began to put together a bunch of medical events that made sense for them. So the basically the spiky leaky theory, sorry about the complex name. I didn't make it all. Is there is there is a loosening or weakening of ligaments at the base of your skull, where the skull attaches to the first cervical vertebrae. That's a very sensitive area. And this is in the category that we talked about a little bit before about weakened ligaments or people with aridininose vendron in which if the ligaments at the base of the skull become looser. The skull collapses on itself. And in doing so, the blood vessels, nerves, lymphatics and all the things in here get compressed. There's literally a blockage to a certain extent

49:46of outflow of all those tissues. So these people can get a facial edema in a way that you would not expect to tear. They can get headaches. And it's very tied into another condition called CCI, which is cervical cranial instability. But it's the same concept. Typical cranial stability basically means at the cranial cervical junction, the skull, the cervical vertebrae, instability means loosening of those ligaments. So we get a structural balance here that causes a blockage, which profoundly affects the autonomic nervous system. If that's off a domino series of events in the body, that is very similar to what these other inflammatory conditions affect. And Andy Maxwell has found that one of the major things that triggers this CCI or instability is the

50:46mass-selectivation triggered by mold toxicity. So we're beginning to tie some of these things together. So the actual paper that Andy wrote is 50 pages long with multiple diagrams. It's super complicated. But we tried in my book to make it as accessible as my hospital to understanding what's going on. So it's very difficult to diagnose this because these structures at the base of the skull where it's all happening are very tiny. The resolution of an MRI is less than two millimeters, meaning if what you're looking for in an MRI is two millimeters or less, it's not going to see it because it can't. It's beyond its resolution. So you need to do special MRIs. You have to put people standing in different ways in order to be able to make that diagnosis, which is tricky. It's interesting because with the whales of scrubs, it's like a leaky,

51:48but then the cranial cervical instability, a lot of patients with hypermobility that have a lot of different types of dysautonomia, they might feel better. First of all, wake up in the morning, they have these headaches that they feel better after laying down for a period of 24 hours. They get up all of a sudden, they get these weird sounds, hearing things, perceptual abnormalities. It seemed kind of like they're crazy, but it's literally that part of the brain that it's the regulatory system in your midbrain. I feel like it's one of those things. It's common. It's just we don't know how to diagnose it and as we learn more about it, we're going to see it more and more. So part of this congestion or lack of flow going on inside the head, part of that is the rebar spinal fluid, which can't flow down through the body the way it is supposed to. And then it leaks. That's where the leaky component of this thing comes from. A couple of very simple things that people can do to kind of hint that maybe it's going on would be to get a soft cervical collar, which would list the skull up a little bit and take some

52:48pressure off of that. Another trick that Andy has found is that if the cerebral spinal fluid is being built up, taking diemocks, the medication that we use for people who are in prevent mountain sickness can be very helpful. Yeah. Now something else else in your, you're, I mean, I had come across this before I forget where you're, I think it was some of your lectures somewhere else about thymine deficiency, which I has for me, it's been a game changer for a lot of my patients from Dr. Launders work at the Cleveland Clinic. You know, how thymine is pictured. You all know, nervous system and how a lot of complex patients have these mitochondrial issues that can be exacerbated by functional thymine deficiencies. Could you kind of briefly talk about that? Because I feel like this is something that we've known about historically going back into the early 1900s with what's going on in Japan and workers would be outside and get sun exposures and develop, you know, we're in your logical issues, but here in our overfed society, we're actually getting nutritionally driven over feeding syndromes that induce these functional deficiencies that again can look like

53:50a lot of bizarre kind of things. So thymine is kind of unique. It's vitamin B1 in that the biochemical reactions by which we make energy, which recall the crebs cycle, almost every step of the crebs cycle requires thiamine as a cofactor to make that work. So if we don't have enough thymine, we're not going to be able to have the energy we need, our mitochondria not going to be able to function properly. And it's probably way more common than people realize. The, for example, mole toxicity started focus on mole, but mole toxicity prevents the body from absorbing or using thiamine the way you normally would. So the vast majority of our patients with mole toxicity are going to have a thiamine component to that, which is pretty easy to treat if you recognize that's what's going on. There are four million people in this country right now taking that

54:50medication we use to treat diabetes. Mettformin blocks the body's ability to utilize thiamine proper. So and again, there's a whole bunch of other nutritional issues. What we call the standard American diet, which is called the cereb diet because of our use of hypochytocin corn syrup, our use of preservatives of every type that diet would make us deficient in thiamine because it's not present there in adequate amounts. So more Americans have a thiamine deficiency that they would realize and supplementing that as a simple thing to do once people recognize it's a bigger player than you would think. Thiamine is critical for the functioning of the autonomic nervous system, which has been a theme in what we're talking about today. Yeah. Every fall, the schedule tightens and most of our attention goes to getting the kids ready. Almost none of it goes to the person holding the whole thing together. So I put together

55:53these three things just for that. A daily multivimment and the active forms your body can actually use. Curses to nettles to support your immune and respiratory health without the drowsiness and neck and the sealed system to help you by rebuild its own antioxidant reserve. This is what I take every fall. That's Aaron harman md.com slash back to school. You know, I'm not sure if you've done this before. I've got several patients with Parkinson's I'm working with right now and I actually read a book about thiamine therapy with Parkinson's patients and the doses there are super high, you know, two, three, four grams a day. Have you used it or utilized thiamine with patients with significant neurological issues and had a really nice response or profound response or what situations have you seen patients have significant responses to some kind of thiamine therapy. Again, I started using it routinely with my molotoxic patients. A thiamine deficiency will cause a taxia, which is the an instability where you're walking and you

56:53can't really walk normally. So with patients with a taxia, I found that to be helpful. And Cherla Mars, who wrote the book, Crowarth of the book, has shared with me that some people need massive amounts of thiamine to make had to make it neurologically therapeutic for them, meaning we're talking a thousand to twelve hundred milligrams of thiamine a day, whereas most of us need a hundred milligrams of, you know, you're using like the, but if you like, I'll comment on the Parkinson's picture in Parkinson's and that applies to Alzheimer's disease and ALS and to almost any neurodegenerative disease, the underlying pathophysiology of it is inflammation. And so figuring out what is triggering that inflammation is really helpful for treating it as I'm sure Aaron. So I just wanted for your list of the guardians to talk about the fact that any patient with Alzheimer's, we should look at mold toxicity, we should look at Lyme disease, we should look at

57:55having rental toxicity, particularly lead on mercury as possible causes. But if you can catch a Parkinson's patient early, you can really make a huge difference in their clinical course. Absolutely, I absolutely agree with that. So oxalates are an interesting topic. I think Kurt, Kurt Roller, I think that a chapter in your book, then actually came across his work back in 2017 while I was doing some research on autism as a person who's like, sees a lot of all kids with autism and works with a lot of autism. Can you talk about some of oxalates? I feel like that's one of the things that's, you know, super common when you do urine tests, you routinely see oxalate crystals in it and people just kind of, you have kidney stones, no, they glance over and ignore it. Yet, these can be a trigger for my fascial pain, fiber pain, neurological issues because you kind of give us a little primer on that. Sure. If you were to be able to look at an oxalate crystal, it's not a pretty little crystal. It's got shards all over it. It's a

58:58tech with crystal that if it is found in your joint, it's really painful and irritating to it. It's just found in any tissue. It's painful and irritating to it. It is a real source of inflammation. Don't want to be a dead horse here, but moles, moles make oxalates so that it adds a whole level of oxalate toxicity to people who might be predisposed. Oxalate stones are one of the most common form of kidney stone. So anyone who has developed a kidney stone has some degree of an oxalate issue and they may need to look at measuring oxalates in the body. The oat test has traditionally had several different measures of oxalates which we found to be quite helpful. If we're measuring oxalates in the body, we can treat it. But then you have to think about looking at the foods and supplements you're taking that might be making oxalates curiolate in your body

59:58based on your own genetics and biochemistry. So not everybody is sensitive to oxalates, but quite a few people are. Common sources of oxalates are things like spinach, kale, rhubarb, those are very, very higher oxalates. And I found out that multiple patients as well who have overgrowth a yeast and a GI track as a driver for oxalate production and napty work on their diet. I mean, I would have normalized their oat testing. So I think it's one of those things that it's all in some of the testing we do, but a lot of practitioners don't know how to either address it or it just kind of, it's not commonly discussed even though it's something that's really, really commonly seen. Yeah, there's, I mean, we have a great chapter in the book that was written by Emily Givler, who herself was wrestled with oxalates and he's a nutritionist, which is very helpful. And that's a good start. If you really want to get a great book on oxalates, Sally Norton has a book called toxic superfoods in which she not only goes into oxalates in detail, but tells you how

1:01:01to lower your oxalates. The biggest issue is suddenly deciding that, oh, okay, oxalates are problem. I'm going to stop eating that. That's a very banned strategy because if you suddenly the decrease the amount of oxalates you've taken, then you can get a phenomenon called oxalate dumping in which the body goes, oh, okay, this is great. I got a whole bunch of oxalates in me. Dump it all at once and you can get much, much worse that way. So if you're going to come off oxalates, you really need to understand how to slowly reduce your oxalate consumption. Very important. Yeah. That's a great point because sometimes when you, you're a gassid, another great example that with people with higher gassids and you bring it down too fast and they can literally have a flare of their gout in their joint pain. So it's another example of a crystal storage disease that if not, if you don't take people off the edge slowly, you can literally flare their pain, which flares the cortisol, which can then almost be a triggering of their underlying trauma stuff. Oh, speaking of coming off things slowly, I thought I'd say, wait,

1:02:06this many people don't realize that antidepressants like SSRIs, you need to come off of them slowly also. I know people know you need to come off of benzodiazepines slowly because the body will resent it greatly, but I don't think even psychiatrists appreciate how suddenly stopping an SSRI, like lexiprozole, one heavier can really mess up the neurotransmitters in the body and set you back enormously. It has to be stopped very, very slowly and gradually just for your audience to know if that's not something you can come off of quickly. Well, actually, I was good. That's all my list of things to talk about. Actually, so you kind of transition us to that one. You know, it's something I've seen it for a year. I've been practicing for only about 24 years, but I saw this early on my career where there's some people that you have to like, you know, go from 20 milligrams to 17 milligrams to you should take them off so slow. I didn't, it didn't quite make sense to

1:03:10me back back then, but you know, as I've studied and learned, I've realized there's that certain population in your book, this is the first place I actually saw it like listed out that you can have, you know, bynzer withdrawal, SSR withdrawal as a trigger for the sensitive patient. I think that's, I think again, something I'm seeing I've recognized, but didn't necessarily connect the dot with some of my more, I'm impugna muscle patients and my patients have more in my mold patients that are sensitive to everything. It's almost like they need their bynzer for the muscle stabilization. They need the SSR for the cortisol effects and if you take them off of that too quickly, and sometimes it's just like baby doses, like what are your thoughts about how, how you address that and someone you're seeing that's sensitive when they want to get off the medication, but you're managing all these other things. Point is very well taken. I often ask the people not withdraw from those medications. I know how toxic they are. I want them off the medications until we've addressed the root cause of what's been making them second to first place. The worth add,

1:04:10Lyme or mold or your name, whatever the chronic illness is, that once that's been addressed, the inflammation level in their body is markedly decreased and they can handle that much better. But I've had patients where they were on really high doses of things like adivant. And I would reduce that by teeny, teeny bits a month or more. I mean, the level of withdrawal has to be matched to the patient. So some patients can come off fast, but if you're taking somebody off and you're moving too fast, they're telling you, I can't do that. So again, you can say, oh, you're becoming addict. This is terrible. But no, I'm not usually aware of what I'll put along the drug in the first place. But that notwithstanding, they are telling us the path and I've had people take two years to get off a benzive, very asapane and a year to get off of an incisor eye type medication. And it's just slow. And they were thrilled when they got off because

1:05:15they realized how fragile their system was from that perspective. Yeah. Yeah, I've actually, working with a young guy right now, he's maybe 12ish. He's a young kid with horrible dyslidonomy at one point time. He couldn't, he come into office, couldn't hardly even get up. He just laid down the whole entire time. He come with sunglasses on. He was sensitive to so many things and disrupted sleep and one of the things we figured out throwing on, he had some mass cell issues as well. And I'm kind of curious your thoughts about this because obviously sleep is like critical, right? And so a small sin that he was like at that point time, maybe 10 or 10, the smallest sliver of like a eighth of a milligram of clump him actually helped him to sleep and actually gave him a good night's rest. And so over about six months, he actually started turning the corner and feeling better and having an injury throughout the day. Like what are your thoughts about in a certain situations, these medications? Because honestly, personally, you know, I think we overuse them, but then there are those patients with a mass cell issue that sometimes this is the only thing that kind of helps them. I have patients where I've used those medications. It's not, it's not I know no. Each patient has

1:06:21to be viewed separately from their own Lyrochemistry Gen X. What I have patients being more toxicity or Lyme and Bartonola can make people incredibly anxious and depressed and hopeless. And many of those patients will benefit from an antidepressant or I'm not opposed to using it. I'm really commenting on when you come off, you just have to come off only those things. It's not, we're not a chest doesn't anybody for taking those meds. They're life saving for some people. Well, I think that's a ground wound. It's clarified because I think one of the same page with that. And ultimately, you're personalizing your this treatment for the individual. You're not blanket saying, everybody needs this or blanket saying, no one needs this. You're literally meeting the patient where they're at. And sometimes these medications can be can be transformative with done the right way, but also realizing they can be addictive as well. So it's a give and take kind of thing. I mean, that's many people have asked me to create an algorithm

1:07:21how to treat mole toxicity. And I have refused to do that because there is no algorithm. Each person has to be viewed separately. It's if you were to try to plug sensitive people into an algorithm, you're going to make them all sick. It's it's the ultimate kind of personalized medicine where you're literally making changes to the patient's treatment regimen based on that respond. It's truly medicine in many ways. It means the practice of medicine, you practice them. It takes time. It's not honestly, it's not for everybody. But gosh, I've helped so many people who were whose lives have been profoundly impacted. They weren't able to work anymore. They were able to leave their old because of the thousands now of people who got their health back. So, yes, it's a lot of work for me to do that. And that's very rewarding work. So I feel like we could keep on talking for hours. I mean, I've only gone through like, you know, two pages of my eight pages of notes here. But so what do you want to know? I know you're doing you're doing this practitioner's course. We have about two over 200 physicians. Once you tell us like what you're

1:08:25doing right now and how people can learn more about what you are doing where they can go for that kind of information. Sure. So unfortunately, not unfortunately, I retired from clinical practice about three years ago. But as my wife will tell you, I'm not really retired. I kind of shifted gears to do more teaching and more education. So as you said, I have an internship program and other healthcare practitioners in which I work with a fabulous naturopathic physician, Jim Krista. And we combine both traditional medical approaches with naturopathic approaches to help practitioners understand a wide array of options they have for treating these various inflammatory conditions. Right. Well, over 200 people are the program line. You know, I do consult if people are interested. You go to my website to that. My website simply needlenathamd.com. We do consult, but my consultations are more in the teaching realm, meaning I want to have

1:09:27your physician on the zone with the patient so that I can not only help the patient understand what to do. I can help the physician get better at it also. I do a little hot of that. I have several more books that I'm in the middle of writing from my publisher has asked me to write a second edition of toxic so that we're updating it. And so for that, I wrote five or six new chapters updated the information in there. I'm writing right now a new chapter on it's basically about inflammation as the underlying physiological process behind most chronic illness. And I'm getting writing that with another person. It goes into a lot of the newer cytokine measures of inflammation, which I think would help patients understand. I mean, often when patients say they're inflamed and their doctors will do a CRP or a sedra, they'll go, those are normal. So you're not there are other measures of inflammation that we're learning about to help patients understand.

1:10:32Yep. So now in your head, very real. Let's figure out what this is so we can move ahead. I do a lot of what I'm doing with you Aaron. I do a ton of podcasts and a lot of webinars. So I'm trying to teach people what I know. Well, that's something I think it's awesome because that's how ultimately the spread's not just, you know, even though you've done this for a long time is if you you can see your thousands of patients, but if you're training 200 people, now your impact is just you're multiplying by 200 versus just there's only so much you can do when you're a little schooled away on the West Coast doing what you do, you know. Right. I mean, I decided that a five or six years ago, it was I need to find a way to teach more people what I know so that we can have way more people doing it. Not a lot of physicians do what we do. So we got to train more people to do it. Agreed. Agreed. Cool. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really super appreciate it. Again, your book, The Sense of Patience Healing Guide will be links below. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you. Take care. Great. Thanks for having me.

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