Asking a Pastor Controversial Questions You’re Afraid To Ask

0:00This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. For 125 years, Nordstrom has been part of your story. The stylist who found the perfect outfit for your big interview. The first pair of walking shoes for your one-year-old. The tomato soup you shared with your sister at the cafe. These are the moments that make Nordstrom. Nordstrom. Bigger a small. We're here for all of it. Celebrating 125 years with new moments still add. Discover it all in NordstromStores and at Nordstrom.com. To try love off-reach out to you. That's probably the most viral sermon clip of all time. I wanted to show the clip and then I was like, I don't think I can show that in church. And you're laughing, but then I said, why can't I? We are putting Luke in the hot seat. You are a great person to ask these questions. A lot of people aren't going to church anymore. They're not following the Lord because of some of these questions. What are your thoughts on Christians drinking and pastor's drinking? You'll get laughed out of the country of Israel if you do that. Why are so many churches spending millions and millions and millions of dollars on their buildings?

1:03How should the church handle politics, discussions, and politics? Who are you voting for in 2028? There's a lot of denominations that really believe that not only women can't be pastors, but women can't teach at all. Where do you think churches should stand on that question? What's up everybody? Welcome back to Happy and Healthy. I am your host. I'm a Jimmy Neymar Pull Award. And you guys might be like, what the heck? Why are you guys sitting next to each other? Because we have basically the coolest pastor in town. He's also one of the reasons why we're married, probably. You think so? I think he gave you some assurance of me. I think we're in an elevator once. Really? I think that's the backstory of this. You've got to be vouch for my character. Yeah. This Luke has met a lot to us and lots of me in our six weeks, my six weeks of just going to his church. Yeah. So Luke, welcome to the podcast. Hey, happy to be here, man. This is incredible. Thank you guys for having me. You guys, this is Luke LaZon.

2:04He lives in Orlando. He is the pastor of key church. We met forever ago. A long time ago. Where was that? I was trying to think where that was. Is it through Grant Skelden? Yeah. I find everyone meets through him. Everyone meets through Grant. He is Professor X of a generation. But we met before we met for sure. That's right. I know. Absolutely. Which was so funny because when Caleb moved to Orlando and you went to his church, I was like, no way. Yeah. And we've used Luke's clips on the podcast a lot. So if you've been watching the podcast, you've probably seen him because you have some spicy takes. Yeah. And I love it, honestly. Yeah. Well, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of cultural conversation that has to be had. And I think scripture is more applicable to it than we think. But it's, there's a lot of takes that have always been held that I do think are like being questioned by a generation that's coming up right now. Are they at least want clarity on it? So they tend to circulate. Well, your clips have, we'll put, we should play the Shilobuff one.

3:05So people like know, because this one went absolutely like nuclear. Like you know, did it go viral? It went so viral. People at my law school were talking about it. Wow. So you're making an impact on my law school. Shilobuff recently did this interview. An interviewer says to him, let's talk about Jesus. What would you do if Jesus walked into this room right now? And Shilobuff just starts breaking down. He starts weeping. He said, even custom is the answer. He said, I wouldn't say nothing. I kiss his feet and he can't get it together. I wanted to show the clip. And then I was like, I don't think I can show that in church. And you're laughing. But then I said, why can't I? Because we're so unnerved with his word choice, but you're unmoved in your worship. What do you think bothers the risen Lord Jesus Christ more? See, we got a problem with people based on what they say and what they do. Jesus has a problem with us based on what we don't say and we don't do. It's right here. Here's the thing that some of y'all are getting ready to send me an email about and I won't read it. Like, you're going to go, what are you making space for sin?

4:06Get your head right. No. No one's making space for sin. We're just need to know that you're no better than that guy. He says a bad word and you say shoot when you stub your toe and you think God's with you and now with him. I mean, get serious about this stuff. Like we're all being sanctified, but he's struggling how he's struggling. What if you told us how you're really struggling just because you're good at keeping yours a secret doesn't mean that he's a bigger issue than you are just because you're around people that are fine with it. What was your thought process? Because that's probably the most viral sermon clip of all time. I think it's up there. So the context of the clip is that I was preaching a sermon on Luke chapter 7 with the woman who has a very scandalous past and she approaches Jesus as he is at a table with other Pharisees about to eat a meal and she really shouldn't be there. She's got a shady past and she comes up to Jesus and it's one of my favorite passages.

5:09She ends up cleaning Jesus' feet with her tears and her hair. She falls on his feet and is weeping, recognizing who he is versus how other people are having issues with him specifically at that table. And so whenever I had seen the shy love buff clip, I thought how perfect of an illustration is that for that particular passage, you see that this guy that's got so many things that are very public and very well known that have been tumultuous in his life. And unfortunately for him, he said to grow up in the spotlight and he's had to find himself dealing with things that we deal with in private, but he's dealt with them in public. And despite all that, when he's asked, hey, what would you do if Jesus walked in this room right now? He said I would kiss his feet and he starts crying in that clip. And I thought that's exactly what that woman who cleans Jesus' feet with her tears in her hair does. And so the whole context was, hey, no matter how ridiculously shady your past is, no matter

6:10how much you feel like you miss the standard. If you realize that I just need to follow my face and surrender at the feet of the one who not only meets the standard, but paid for my way to actually be covered with that same righteousness, then everything's going to be all right. I got chills. That is a bar. That was really good. I need to go read that chapter again. That's so good. Can I try love buff reach out to you? So there's an individual that reached out to me. That's been in several films with him and have tried to connect us. So you're saying there's a chance. Yeah. So then there's a whole interesting story behind that that we can get into. It's just crazy. That dude, I mean, what better impact? Transformers. Transformers. Transformers. Just had a speech impediment. Yeah, it's okay. No, it's okay. Transformers. You're accepted here. I'm going to talk about Gilmore girls.

7:11He said Gilmore goes. I couldn't say my R's, Taliesin. Gilmore goes. Hey, man, you're in law school. Who cares? Who cares what people say? That's right. You're the smartest person I know. I was the smartest person here probably. Yeah, no, for sure. No, I'm kidding. Without it out. I'm just kidding. No doubt. It's you, Luke, then me. No. No. No. Luke. And then us. Okay. No. So speaking of Luke, because Luke is so smart, we are putting Luke in the hot seat because he's a pastor. He takes strong stances. But also like you stand on truth. You have obviously like a very healthy church, a healthy marriage. Yes. Two kids. Yeah. Judah and what was your name? Elijah. Elijah. I love a good biblical name. Yeah. And I feel like you're just impacting a generation. And so that's why we wanted to bring you on because, hey, you guys, this is our first kiss in the studio. Isn't that exciting? Honored. Because no one comes to Oklahoma with that much. So when you're here, we're like snatch him up. This is great. I also, we have a list of questions. We partly gathered this list because I feel like there's a lot of, and I know for me,

8:16there's a lot of reasons why people don't go to church or they're even not believers. And oftentimes it's on these small issues. Yeah. Again, audience hates it. Some love it. I talk about law school a lot. Yeah. And you learn about issues like cases. When you're reading a case, you take the issue. And a lot of people are looking at what we read in our cases. Sometimes there's like a small issue that doesn't really determine the cases outcome, but it's a small issue. And oftentimes I think people get so focused on that small issue that they miss the big issue. And what I mean by that is a lot of people are not following Jesus because of small stances. Right. And I think you are a great person to ask these questions. A lot of people aren't going to church anymore. They're not following the Lord because of some of these questions. We're going to ask. Okay. Do you want to kick it off, baby? Yeah. Strong or should we corner him? Absolutely. Should we ask him one of the hardest? Should we get him fired? Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. No, let's not get his church persecuted. Okay.

9:17This is a two-parter. Okay. Okay. What are your thoughts on Christians drinking and pastors drinking? Yeah. So this is an area that I think a lot of people think is great. And I really feel like it's black and white. If we're just talking about responsibly drinking, then you can do that. Like under certain conditions. Like, am I breaking the law? No, I'm 21. Am I forbidden by scripture? No. Like, I think there's a lot of things in scripture that talk about wisdom around alcohol. And obviously, like, there's been a lot of terrible things that have happened as a result of people drinking alcohol. But you absolutely permitted to drink alcohol if you feel okay doing so and you don't abuse it in some type of way. I think the reason that people find it to be something that they think is great or just think like, how could you even do that? Is because there's been so many terrible things that have happened as a result of alcohol, which is really the case for a lot of different things in this world as well. I mean, I could make a case that we shouldn't be on our cell phones.

10:17But nobody is advocating for that. That's true. Yeah. So I think it's just funny like where we pick and choose. We would have a job. Yeah. Which I don't want that to be guys. I think alcohol just for the general population of is something that as long as you're drinking responsibly fine. Obviously, the line is getting drunk. And I think that's where a lot of people are just they just go, man, if you're going to drink at all and you could possibly get drunk, it's like, I mean, if anybody who's ever had a drink, myself included, knows you know where that line is. You know, you know where that line is. And I think people's backgrounds matter there. As far as pastors are concerned though, I think the same thing applies. I think it's more discretion if you're a pastor like Lindsay and I like to have a glass of wine at home. I don't do it as much out in public because I don't know if there's someone that's there that's kind of like, I can't believe my pastor's got a glass of wine. But meanwhile, I'm not going to lie to you if you ask me about it. Yeah. I respect that.

11:18Yeah. So I grew up assembly of God and I went to a very speaking in tongues. Yeah. I wasn't. I saw a lot of people. I don't think you do really do you? Well, I remember watching these kids who were my age speaking in tongues as like, they were like flexing. Like they were like, I can speak in tongues. Can you? I can speak in tongues on command. Yeah. And then they would be like, also I can get slain in the spirit on command and they just would drop dead. Yeah. And so I had a real bad like perception of like, I can't imagine why that would be tough as a kid. Yeah. I thought I thought I still don't know what I fall on it. Yeah. So a lot of people that I grew up going to church with had the mindset that alcohol on the Bible was different than alcohol is now. They said it was watered down. But I think I disagree with that because Jesus talks about like the good wine and. You'll get laughed out of the country of Israel if you do that. Yeah. Really? You'll literally get laughed at. So true story. I'm on a bus. This is 2016.

12:19One of the worst decisions I made is Lindsay and I got married and I was like, I'm going to go to Israel without you for 10 days and she's like, Oh, okay. I took her eventually. So. Okay. But there was a Baptist pastor on that trip with us and there was like tons of different denominations that were represented there. And this guy says to Yov who was our guide and like these guys are sharp. I mean, because they're Jews, but they know the New Testament better than most Christians. They're definitely better than most pastors, better than me. And guys like, so there was one of the, one of the things they were going to take us do is go to a wine seller where they made wine the way that King David would have made wine. That's the way that it was branded. Don't know why it's how it is. And so one of the guys is like, Ben, but it's all like watered down, right? That's how it is. And our guide literally just looked down. He started getting mad. He's and he was like, what do you mean? You make wine how you make wine? What does this mean? And he's getting frustrated. And he's like, he's like, wine's always been wine.

13:21Wine's always been wine. And then he made an interesting point to the guy. He's like, yeah, but it was different. And he said, well, if there's alcohol in it at all, doesn't that make the point moot? Hmm. That's good. He's like, so if the issue should you drink or should you not drink? If there's alcohol in it, even if it's just a little bit, then all of a sudden you're moving the goalposts on the argument. You're not making it. Should you or should you not? You're going, that's right. That's right. Yeah. So that's right. That's one thing I struggle and I want to get your thoughts on this because I have heard, first of all, before I say this, your Jewish impersonation sounds like an Italian man. Yeah. So I think we need to work on that. Everybody's an Italian man, I'm like, like, you know, just like anybody with a strong stance Italian man. Yeah. I was born in Jersey. So, you know, like, were you really? Yeah. Okay. So I recently heard on a podcast, this person talked, saying that like wine is for mockers or it's not, kings shouldn't drink wine. Yeah, proverbs. Yeah.

14:21Why does it say that? I mean, I think anybody that's, it's kind of like today. I think anybody that's had any type of bad experience with alcohol, like there is wisdom that needs to be moved through when it comes to any type of substance like that. And I think that same wisdom could be applied to a lot of different areas. But I think, you know, many men have made really terrible decisions as a result of alcohol being involved, right? I mean, some people's like entire lives have been tripped up over like, having won too many. And so I think, you know, whenever you look at proverbs, there's really just a lot of wisdom that's being discussed there. It's also in proverbs that I believe you're going to find that it says that wine makes the heart glad. So I think again, you can go, there is a responsibility factor in here. And there is just this, almost like bumpers, like you're going bowling or something like that. And it's trying to say, this is terrible. And this doesn't make you evil. And we got to be somewhere in between. So that's really the context of it.

15:24I mean, I used to literally think if someone was drinking alcohol and I saw them, I thought they were going to hell. Like probably until I was like 12, 13. And I would say, if I had to make up a stat, I might say it's 20% of Christians think that it's actually sinful. Yeah. It's interesting. It's a made up stat. I mean, we've had that, we've had people comment about that to us of like, why do we drink or why do we drink wine? And we used to, we used to hide it and we stopped hiding it because it felt fake. Like I have this wine in my hand, but I'm going to hide it. And it felt almost self-righteous, but I get the perspective. Yeah. I was going to say similar to like you, like if you're in public and we have a platform, it also feels maybe irresponsible to frivolously just be like, here's wine and they don't know what glass was that. How are we using it? We know, I just think that's why we hide it, quote unquote. Yeah. It's because we want all to be responsible. Yeah, I mean, it's responsible. It's discretion. And I think there's something different versus knowing that this is something that someone might do like in private with their spouse, whatever versus like seeing it firsthand

16:28can also, just for whatever reason, it can have a different effect. And I mean, it's Romans 14. I mean, it's like talking about the liberties that we have in Christ, but ultimately, like those liberties are something that is governed by love that we have for other people. And so I'm like, hey, I've got a lot of Christian liberties. And that's like what Paul talks about in First Corinthians. I'm going to butcher, but maybe it's nine, but then also Romans 14, like their whole concept of like eating meat was the big thing back then. I think drinking alcohol today is a perfect parallel. I mean, because back then, they were like, the whole issue with Christians was, oh my goodness, like how can you be eating this? Meat that was potentially sacrificed to idle. Did you pick up this meat in the marketplace? Because if you picked up the meat in the marketplace, how do you know it wasn't sacrificed to a pagan god? Like how can you do this? We can't do it. We got to be and Paul's just like, I'm going to have this steak. And I just need you to know, like, yeah, he's like, listen, man, I understand like if that's the way that you feel about things, but that's not like a personal conviction that

17:30I have like all things are fine, like in being redeemed by Christ. But ultimately, and he would call them weaker, he would call them the weaker individual, you don't want to just be like, well, I'm going to do this because I scripture says I can do it. But I'm also not going to have someone like bust into my house and be like, I can't believe you do this. I can't go to your church. I know that you do this. I'll be like, then on the other side, you need to think, think about like a beverage is keeping you from making certain decisions, not even irresponsibly done. So there is room for both of those things to exist. Yeah, that was literally the, the real that you posted that I quoted was the Romans 14. Yeah. Because it's so good. I mean, the amount of judgment I see online with Instagram and influencers. I mean, I made a whole podcast. You guys can go watch it. But I was just basically saying like the Christian space online has gotten a little scary. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a thing or pointing, you know? Have you had anybody make a video about you yet, like reacting to a sermon or trying

18:36to destroy you? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Like, and I think like one of the interesting things is that I, so I mean, this is another like kind of hot take. I refuse to like, and this is fine if you all do this or other people do it again, personal conviction. I don't stitch other people's stuff and then like respond because I think it dehumanizes us. We don't. And so I don't know. And I get why people, there are some things that people say that are just flat out and flammatory. Where it's like, we need to push back on this. But I think, yeah, I mean, I've had people that have tried to make it something just absolutely that's not what it is. But I mean, the beautiful thing about having a community is I'm like, I don't care what any of you who don't live here go here know me think. If people that live here go here know me think this, that's a completely different ball game. But my barometer is not what people on the internet think, whether that's good or bad. And that's the benefit of having a community. But okay. So as a pastor, why are so many churches spending millions and millions and millions of dollars

19:41on their buildings on God knows what machines. Obviously, we have our opinions, but I'd love to hear yours first. Yeah. I mean, our church is in the process of trying to figure this out right now. I mean, so I think it, I think it depends on truly, and this isn't like a dodge, like it depends on the context. So like I'll use ours as an example. And then I think we can apply this to other things. So like our church, like I inherited, like this beautiful piece of property, beautiful building. But the fact of the matter is we have more people that are coming right now than the building can even fit within like a reasonable amount of gatherings. I also have 26 buildable acres on that property that I can use, which can be used for like multiple different things. So for us, we're like, we want to maximize every square inch of the property that we have versus having to go buy another building in a different place like plant a campus, whatever, or even give it away for church planning, which we do a lot of already. So I think buildings are one of the like the greatest investments that churches can make for their long term future.

20:41I think it's always interesting, like when people will say, well, the first century church, they didn't buy buildings. It's like, yeah, because they couldn't. Yeah. Not because they wouldn't, because they couldn't vote either. So like if you dug up a first century believer and said, hey, what are you going to do today? Wow. So it's actually that time of year we're in our country. We have the freedom to vote and then we have the freedom to gather and we're going to worship the Lord. He'd be like, you can vote. You can own property and you're not going to be drug in front of a Coliseum and burned at the stake and have lions come all you like what is even going on. So there's benefits to it. But I mean, of course, you have to navigate it in a way that's like, what is actually like building the kingdom versus like building an empire? I used to kind of be a hater. Yeah. When you, sometimes when you go to a church and it's like, they are raising money, you know, it's like for seven weeks, it's like, okay, here comes the pitch.

21:44And I used to hate on it. But then I was in New York City and I was paying money or I think I was paying money. But we were going to view a church, a Catholic church. And it was like, I was like, this is the most beautiful church ever. And I was like, look at the detail. It's beautiful. And then I was like, whoa, why do I get uncomfortable about it today? And I think part of that is just we like to sew division. And I think that people are profiting, you know, medialettes and influencers now. Yeah. Off of creating problems that maybe don't exist. And hitting the church for no reason sometimes. I think have you all ever been to London? Yes. Okay. So I was in London last year and I brought like one of my younger worship pastors that's on staff with me. And he just made a really flippant comment. I was like, hey, I'm a nerd. Like I want to go see all the churches, go into all the crypts, see all the things. And we walked by St. Paul's Cathedral and we were there to early to get in.

22:47But we walked by the outside and he's just mind blown at the size of this thing. I mean, because it is a massive church and it's gorgeous. I mean, it's one of the most beautiful churches in the world. And you go inside eventually and it's just the sheer scale and the beauty and like the amount of money that you know went into this. And he just flippantly looked at me and he said, but an LED walls too much. Yeah. And it's like stuck with me. I hadn't like thought about it like that. But I was like, yeah, you're right. Now, I would say there's a flip side though. One thing that I think pastors can often do and I'm saying this as one is it can be like super defensive. And I'm like, I mean, we don't need to be defensive. But there's been some really corrupt stuff that's gone on with money and buildings and where is it? And there's a lot of things that we believe in at key church big time is every year like our executive pastor puts out an annual report for our budget. I mean, and everything except salaries is in there. So that, but even like our line item for what we pay staff is in there.

23:52So you can get a pretty good idea probably if you needed to, you know, but we're just like it's just it's just transparency. And people at our church, even if they might have some trepidations, because we're like, this is where dollars are going and we're not hiding it. They're actually very generous because they're like, we see where it's going. We trust you guys that kind of thing. So anything we can do to remove a barrier for people, I think we should do. And if being transparent about finances is a barrier, it's like, you know, like, I so appreciate that though the transparency. Yeah. People attack the church so much. And it's like, well, the church is also there to serve you serve the city. It's a lot of people. So I think a lot of times people want to just go and criticize and then it's like, what are you doing? What are you? What's the difference you're making? Like, are you actually in the church seeing the difference the church is making who they're helping? What charities are donating to the mission trips? I think sometimes the outside looking and you just see millions and millions of dollars. But it's like, but what do you want people to do if there's not in a room?

24:55Like if your church is growing, it's like, what do you expect them to do? Make six services. Yeah. And then the pastor's just like, has no rest and no breaks. And so I think sometimes people just forget that the church is obviously there to serve people. And yes, a lot of churches don't have transparency. So I love that you're doing that. Yeah. But like just because there's millions of dollars being poured into it doesn't mean inherently it's bad. Well, I think people to go off on that, I think people think a lot of people think it's a scam. I think this is a system to make you rich, to make your friends rich. It's a business. And eventually, you know, you'll go to other churches and maybe speak. And then you guys just profit off of that. And I think that's where some of those people are coming from. What would you say to those people? I would say that first I would acknowledge any hurt that they've been through and be like, I hate if that has been something you've experienced. I hate that. I'm sorry for you. And I'm not here to push back on that. I don't doubt that you have experienced that on some level. The other thing that I would say though is if you want to like find something to get

25:59into in order to like get a get rich quick ski like being a pastor is just not like. And I think by and large like, well, here's what we tend to do. And we do this with a lot of things. We'll take a tiny substratta of the most successful level of anything. And then we will apply that to the whole, the vast majority of pastures are not raking it in. And then the other thing is there are other pastors that like even if they're doing well, they're probably they're probably at a larger church and they're managing quite a few different things, but they're still not the richest people in your church. Rest assured. So I think there are some people where the reality is pastors probably make more than some people think and less than some people want. And they live in the middle of that. I think the other thing that's difficult as a pastor is people want people want their pastors to minister to their community, but not, but have to drive an hour to get there. And I think how is it that you can minister to a community well if you can't be in it?

27:03And I'm not saying it's like, Hey, what's what's the highest tax bracketed area in here that pastor need to live in? But I think it's something to consider. And so there's there's a lot of nuance that I think goes into that conversation, but just buy in large, like even growing up, everybody, it's like kind of a joke. Like, you know, Hey, who doesn't make any money? A little pastor's going to be like, you know, like everyone kind of knows that. So even like from the outset, like let's say you get into it, young, most people are not jumping in being like, I'm going to get loaded off of this. I think the other thing is then people can see something that is often out there on the internet, like a housing allowance. And people are like, man, so you can get like a housing allowance and that's like added to your salary. It's like, no, a housing allowance is something that you can claim that reduces what you're actually taxed on for your income. But if it's ridiculous, I mean, they will come for you. And the good news is like at our church, and I do think this is like a nice layer is we have a board. And I do think like especially with your background, Caleb, like bro, you kind of walk there to

28:07be people that oversee this that don't benefit from this place. Yeah, that's right. 100%. So like, I have, there's five other individuals that are on my board and we're fixing to add another that they don't get paid by the church. I'm the only one on the board that gets paid by the church. They set everything. They do checks and balances. They give to the church so that when people go, well, we've got some questions. They can be like, hey, we're you and we sit up here and we can tell you everything is buttoned up. And that adds a lot of trust and strength to the conversation as well. Because I think it's also, and there's different models for this. Some people have their friends that lead other churches and do other things in our contacts. Like these are just dudes that go to our church. You know what I've learned? There are very few things in life that you should actually invest in and a mattress is high on that list. I mean, you spend a huge portion of your life in bed. So you want it to be a good experience. This podcast is sponsored by Casper and you guys know I only talk about products I genuinely

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31:08How do you decide when you're building a church like, for instance, a lot of churches sell merch at their church? Yeah. That's specifically some churches have the coffee shop or have the aesthetic they have the vibe. At what point, how do you balance that and not to be black and white, but also to, does that ever get weird or does it ever, do you ever struggle with like, maybe should, is it wrong to sell merch at a church? Or like invest until like $100,000 speakers or like, is that LED screen necessary? Is it not? How do you make these decisions? Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it is the specifics of it is like, so we do, we do merge at our church, but it just makes its money back. So it ends up, the line item essentially ends up being zero. So the one thing is it's first off, everyone loves, at least especially a younger gen- they love merch, man. And it's not to make it sound too businessy, but it's also free advertising.

32:10But instead of using business terms, I would say it like this is, we all want to wear like a jersey for our favorite team. And I think whenever you are a part of a community where you love it, it's transformed you, it's transformed your family. And really it's the Lord working through those things. You love to be able to talk about it. And when people ask, what is that like? You just love to like rep stuff. So for us, where I would draw the line is if we were buying things, then it was like, we're like 150 Gs in the hole on this. It'd be like, I mean, like, who do we think we are? You know what I mean? It's not like we're selling Gucci. I mean, we're selling like, Guilden. And sorry, comfort college. Yeah, like you want people to, it always zeros out. So I think like that's a good barometer too. Like, is this actually going to hurt our ability to do ministry? I think when you end up realizing it zeros out and it kind of like helps people realize like, oh man, I've seen that around. Like I'd love to send my kid there sometime. I've heard about your youth group, whatever. There's like a high return on that like spiritually for people, which just sounds weird

33:11to say, but it's fact, the other thing is like coffee shops is like going back to the drinking conversation. It's like, that's what Christians get into because they're like, I can't drink wine anymore, I guess. I guess I'm going to drink coffee. That's true. Like, so we just figure out which addiction like can we get into that's like not going to get us in trouble with scripture. And it's just like, I guess caffeine definitely coffee. So, you know, we were, we started going, no, no, no, I think like as far as like coffee shops and stuff like that, I mean, again, I think it depends on, hey, what does it look like to put that on your campus? And then what do you do with like the dollars that come in as a result of that place? Like, I love when I go to a coffee shop in a church and they're like, so these beans were roasted by someone who works with missions partners in Guatemala. I'm like, that's right. This is freaking awesome. Yeah, you know, come on, shout out Guatemala. Like what a miserable place to be in to not assume the best, go into it. And I, and I feel like you would agree with this because I didn't always use to be like this. I now can walk into a church and like not, not the first instinct that I have is not to

34:15judge. And it took me a little while with everything that I've gone through, but like it's an oversimplification to walk into a place, see merch and go, oh, rich, someone's making money off of that. Yeah. They might be breaking even, but at the same time, I guess it's not wrong that people are out of all the things you could wear out of all that perverted clothing that you could wear. You're wearing a church hoodie. Yeah. Yeah. I guess probably not that bad. No. But I think people, what's the scripture or what's the, when Jesus comes in and flips the table? John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John in the temple. Yeah. There's still on things in the temple. People love to bring that up. Yeah. That's true. Like you're making a profit off of like, off of Jesus's name. Or what's, you probably know it, pastor. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the truth of the matter too is like they had essentially turned the temple into like a place of business as like that's essentially the main thing that was kind of going on there. I mean, like there's been all sorts of issues. I mean, not to get like too nerdy, but there's been all sorts of like different reforms and stuff that has gone on all the way from the Old Testament into the new to where people,

35:18you guys know, they continually lose their way. They find their way back. You have a good king. You have lots of bad kings. Get a good king. You kind of restore some things. You get up losing the essence of like, what are we even doing here? Like what is the point of this temple and Yahweh who we worship? But I think for church, that's the issue in our modern context is because people look at most everything through the lens of the deepest pain that they felt in association with whatever it is they're looking at. It can be very difficult to see that and not be like, I mean, John too. It's like, well, I mean, here's the thing. People are not making money off of church merch for the most part. If they are, they're probably killing it. I don't know if like, I mean, say like, Mark Kup is insane. Yeah, that's the other thing is like, there would be, if you came in, I was like, dude, I'd love to give you this guild insert for 250 bucks. You'd probably be like, okay, like, but it's like, dude, this is, this is going to be $25 and everything that we outsell will end up going to extra, like, that's the way that it works. I think, and that's the big difference with church on all of these things is there are

36:23some people that look at church and they look at scripture and they look at the world and they don't have like a redemptive thought to what it is that the Lord's doing in the world, like the Lord's redeeming the world. So a lot of those things too, like I would challenge people in the most encouraging way to go, hey, you know what, like actually where you do have like a lot of shady clothing brands or whatever, like this is, this is for a mission and for the church and you see that there's redemption in that. Like instead of just profiting off of people that want to like purchase coffee, it's like this is like going into the mission, everything that we do, even in what could be deemed as like a secular thing is being redeemed for the mission of God in the world. And that's what the church is ultimately trying to do in those things, but I understand on the surface for sure where you could step in and you're just like, is this just like commerce going on here? What's happening? So and that's a fair question. Yeah, I think it's just like avoiding a critical spirit, honestly. Like I think that's where a lot of people go in is they're just like criticizing everything.

37:24Okay. Luke, Luke, Luke. My next question is. Who are you voting for? The Ticks. Who are you voting for in 2028? Who are candidates going to be? Is that a better question? I think in JD Vance and then we don't know for the Democratic party. Is Marco Rubio going to run? Oh, yeah, I think so. Why is he going to find out? It's crazy that Trump, like since 2015, we've been talking about Trump every day. Yeah, it's going to be weird. It's like over. I'm kind of controversial. I'm kind of ready for it. I think I would say I'm ready for it in the sense that I think like a good reset for the whole country will be a good thing. I mean, I feel like he's pure comedy in some of his plays. He is something. You should, I wish I could do his voice. My guilty pleasure is just like stuff on every person that can like impersonate him. What I was going to say though is what like how should the church handle politics, discussions of politics because a lot of people would say no, this isn't political.

38:26These are things that God stands on. The word stands on as Christians we should speak about. But then some people would be like, uh, like do not make that you, you're just a pastor. Why are you telling me you? I should vote for what I should believe. What I should stand for just preach the Bible. Like where do you stand on that? I mean, I think if you preach the Bible, you're going to wait in the politics. If you're doing it in its fullness. Now here's the thing. I'd also say there are things that we think are political that are actually theological. Give us an example. So I think there is like sanctity of life would be like a great example of that. I think also talking about anything that has to do with being charitable towards those that are less fortunate than like any of those things that people would deem like, uh, is really like left or right. At our church, our stances, I'm, I'm not going to dodge something that I know you're talking about around the water cooler. Like what good of a church is that? Um, and that's not like shade to other churches if they have different stances. I just at our church and in our context, like, um, we are not in the Bible belt.

39:29We can't assume that anybody just like we just all kind of uniform agree on everything. Like there's a lot of differing opinions that like walk around in that place. And so you want to be able to have a meaningful conversation with people being grounded theologically and things that are going to impact what they do politically. And so I'm for it. I mean, I did, uh, series on it in, uh, in, um, what year was that? When was the election? Twenty twenty four. Twenty four? Twenty four? Yeah. Yeah. In twenty twenty four going into it, uh, did a whole, did a whole series on it and I loved it. I mean, it was probably one of the more fun things to do is of course it's divisive on some level. Did you get a lot of like backlash in your emails and? Not a ton, uh, not a ton because I will say this. I think that I think clarity is kindness today more than ever before. And I think that people just appreciate that you are talking about it. Even if they disagree, I think people that are willing to walk in and be a part of the

40:30church, maybe not the internet so much, but walk in and be a part of the church. They are, they are there and they are grateful. Even if we have disagreements on, on some political things. And if you can build a case with the scripture like and on the foundation that is the word, I mean, it's, it's tough to argue some of this stuff. So, but we can have great conversation about it. We're not like vilifying each other. So, uh, it's, it's actually been really great. Yeah. I am. Were you going to say something? I think that people are looking towards their pastor of like, I, and this, I'm learning this in constitutional law where everybody in every single society, you know, century, early century, 21st century, we've always wanted one person in control. We want to keep, we want to present it. And it goes for every type of community that we're in. We're at our job. We want the boss and we want, we want to know his opinion on everything. Right. You have the pastor. We want to know the pastor's opinion on everything.

41:31Is that, is that a lot to carry? And then how do you, how do you know what to share and what not to share? Yeah. I think it's a, it's a lot to carry in the sense that I think there are some people where you realize, well, most people, uh, they can oftentimes ask you a question and they really just want to know if you agree with them, not because they actually want to know what you think. Yeah. So I'm like, trying to really exercise the discipline of listening to people like I could be wrong about something. Like they're, the whole thing is pretty loosely. But I think if I can, if I can have a conversation with someone and there's an opinion of mine, air quotes an opinion, but it's, it's built on the word. Uh, then it's a whole lot easier to share it. There are some things that are like more specific and nuanced that I might have an opinion on, but I can't necessarily back on a biblical level or I haven't thought it through enough. I think we're actually moving to a time though where, um, I think proverbs is going to prevail

42:34where we're going to be slow to speak and quick to listen and there's going to be, there's going to be something that we admire about people who do not share their opinion on every single thing because you get into trouble talking about anything and everything too much. And no person is ever in human history going back talking about constitutional law, just looking at human history. We've never needed an opinion about everything at all times everywhere for the sake of anything having friendships and family and like that. None of that stuff has ever existed. Uh, so it's, it's a unique shift that we're waiting through right now, I think. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. I got the. Okay. Another question I have for you because someone actually asked me about this last week is predestination versus free will. Uh huh. Where do you stand on that? Because it is kind of confusing when the Bible talks about the elect and choosing, but then also I know with Romans 10, 9 or 9, 10 that all who call upon the Lord will be saved. So like, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah.

43:35I mean, I, I think if you find anyone that can like perfectly articulate this, they'll probably be the first person in human history that's done it. But I, I really am loving the idea that you can live in that this kind of goes back to our last conversation too, but it's living in the tension of both hand. Like, are there people that are predestined? Do we have free will? Yes. Uh, I think you can see that God chooses people like pretty clearly in scripture. Yeah. Like he chooses Abraham. Chooses Moses. Like he just chooses these people, you know, and you, you don't even really know 100% why I don't think that they do on some level, right? So you see that God chooses, but at the same time, I think within like the umbrella of God's sovereignty, which I would be super high on, uh, there is the free will of humans, uh, that exists. So we make choices and there's consequences to our choices and our actions for sure, but I don't think they're things that God just like didn't see that coming. Right. So I mean, but specifically in matters of salvation, uh, I think you see the working of both of those things together, not that it's this or that. Uh, and, and I think that's where you start.

44:36When you present like binaries, that's where people become camped. And that's when we start to have all of these like major divisions. Uh, and that's where you start to have people that are coming in to church, whatever or going, um, hey, I, uh, I need to know if you agree with me on this. And if not, I'm gonna bounce. I think the danger, dangerous part about the conversation is most people turn it to, oh, okay, pre-destination. I've accepted Jesus in my life. So now I can do whatever I want because I'm pre-destined or I, I can't lose my salvation. Yeah. And so it comes from like a bad motive. Yeah. I'm even asking the question all the time. Uh, and I think, I think it's something again, yeah, you're right. Like we don't have the answers to a lot of these questions. And that's not like even that one is like a good one. I'm like, that's not love and devotion though. Yeah. Like so I call that the willy-wonka ticket to heaven. So like that doesn't necessarily, like I think people pray or prayer of what they think is salvation and I think the prayer itself is salvific. Right. Uh, and it's like, but we're saved by grace through faith.

45:39And if you're not actually like living a life of faith and you were like, I just don't want to go to hell. Uh, then that's a willy-wonka ticket. And by the way, like I, I so love Johnny Depp. Yes. But that God chose to make marriage the way that he describes like his relationship with us, right? And is real in the Old Testament. I love it because if you play that out in your marriage, like, is there actually like a faithful love involved there? If I said, man, I am so glad that we got married, but now that that's over with, uh, cannot wait to go see this girl that girl, you know, it'd be like, um, or so we're married. So you, you, you actually aren't supposed to do that. And we'll have, we'll respond when a real visceral way if someone does do that. Uh, so I do think like God's a jealous God, like exclusive devotion to him is like a critical thing.

46:40You can't just go around doing whatever you want. And it makes you wonder like is spirit of God like living in here? Um, so I think that's, that's always a fun one though. And I said that from the platform lot, willy-wonka ticket to heaven. That's a funny. Yeah. Speaking of women being pastors. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so. Okay. This one's going to give you in travel or you know, I think people should be on my side. Yeah. A lot of Christians are going to like what I have to say. My grandma, it has been teaching her my grandpa, past her church. And she teaches where in Okima, Oklahoma. It's like an hour and 20 minutes away from here. Yeah. It's going to say, dude, how do I not know this? It's the most like rural town in, uh, in Oklahoma. And I think like they've had 20 people going, going there for 20 plus years. He plays a saxophone. She, she plays the piano. She sings. And then they trade off, um, speaking. And a lot of people, I remember specifically, uh, a family telling my family that their salvation was in question because my grandma teaches and because she's in

47:44sand because she teaches, uh, that we needed to confront her and all the things. Salvation's on the line. And this is, I won't name the denomination. Yeah. We have the denomination listening. But there's a lot of denominations that really believe that not only women can't be pastors, but women can't teach at all. And I think it's, I'm confused in it because people will bring up scripture and they'll say, well, it says it right here. And then I'm also like, wait, if my grandma gets up to heaven one day and God is like, nope, sorry, man. Sorry, or sorry, girl. You were sharing the gospel. Sorry, grandma. You're not coming in because you were teaching my word. I know there's a lot of worst things you can be doing out there, but you stood in the pulpit and you shouldn't be doing that shame on you. I just don't think that's the God we serve. Yeah. But as a pastor, where, where do you think churches should stand on that question? Well, I mean, I think the number one, the biggest issue of what you just said is that someone like made it a matter of salvation. And I think there's, there's something called theological triage where you look at things

48:46that are like primary issues. And then there's secondary interciary. And it's like, hey, primary is if, if I were to walk in here one day and just be like, you know what, I think I don't think the Trinity is really a thing. It'd be like, yeah, we can't go here. And that's a huge issue. But I mean, once you start talking about other things like what are your thoughts on, are the gifts of the spirit active or they not active? Like we might disagree on that, but I could still go to this church. When you start talking about like women, pastors, preachers, that might even fall in tertiary for me where I'm like, I really just don't care a whole lot. I think the issue is that you have some people that have made it a matter of like you are out of line with like God's will. Art and stuff like that. And I think there's a, there's a, there's a whole conversation to be had here. I'll to be candid. Like our church doesn't have female pastors. Our church also has a history. I'm not the first, you know, guy that's ever been the pastor at this church. I'm the fourth. So it's a tumultuous history, but I'm the fourth in 15 years.

49:50And I would just say my personal sense is I, I have no issue with women preaching. And I, I do think, I do think there are roles that men and women differ in and have. And I think you can get down a slippery slope, especially culturally when you look at things going on today. If you go, there's no distinction. But I think you see in, in Romans that Phoebe is a deacon. Phoebe's the one that's taking Romans back. And I think NT Wright has some really great stuff about how Phoebe probably would have been the one that read the letter out loud to the Roman congregation. It's like, I mean, how do you, you know, how do we get, and it's, you know, I mean, like Romans, I think, I think you not only can look at that, but even, you know, people will point to, is it in Corinthians? I really struggle with addresses, folks, obviously, but that's, but it's, it, where it's talking about, like, women should be like silent and less like first Peter. Okay. There's like, there's that. And then there's like the, the prophesying, um, unless they have like a covering all that stuff.

50:51Yeah. It's, it's right around the stuff. And I think you can also look at these things and realize too, like their, their context matters for some of these things. I do think there's differences in men and women, but at the same time, like, I think it's interesting how we'll choose where we take scripture literally in some instances, but we take it, we don't take it literally in others. So my thing is, I think it's interesting that we all have our right eye here. I mean, just because Jesus says in the sermon on the Mount, if your right eye causes you to sin, then you should gouge it out. Why don't we take that literally? That's right. Because then you start getting into like a set of system and being like, well, I'm just going to live like in a discipline way, but my heart can be wrong. So I think while you certainly can see things in scripture that are like contextual, there are some things that are a lot more clear than others. And there are a lot of people that be like, this one's black and white. And I think it's more gray than most people would like to admit. And even in my own church, there are some people that wouldn't love that answer from me, but that is my personal stance. That's cool. I think a lot of men are uncomfortable with the idea of, and they, and they sadly bring this into their marriage.

51:53They bring it into their life where they're uncomfortable with the idea that a woman is standing above them and telling them what to do. And sadly, I've never heard the 90% of the time, the people speaking against women preaching or teaching. I never see the person who's giving it in a very like, if they're against it, it's, it's always, it always seems prideful. It always seems like you're just, they're prideful of the fact that they don't want a woman. They don't believe they're capable to tell a man what to do. Yeah. And I think that it's like scary because like I believe when Jesus came back from, from the dead, the first person to share the good news was a woman. Am I wrong? No, it's Mary, right? Mary, so the idea that Jesus, God, as an interest women with the ability to communicate big moments or big situations to men, I think that that is the core of the conversation that I think is the issue.

52:59Well, that even, that even can like become the submission issue. Like if you look at Ephesians 5 talks about, like women should be submissive to their husband, but then it talks about how you're mutually submitted to one another. And that never gets much. Never. And so, and that's like the immediate verse that follows. And so I think, I think you can definitely have like some Theobros out there that are just like, I'm standing on the word, you're not, you're standing on feelings. And let me be clear, like the word could say like this is IE to tuna sandwich. And I'd be like, okay, that's how that's what we do then. Like the word prevails above any feelings or thoughts or denominations or anything. And I do think there are legitimate things in scripture that people have differing interpretations on that it is okay. If that's where you land, but being like arrogant and just quite honestly like mean about it is not it. But that is often the way that that it goes down. And in the internet age, it's particularly incendiary.

54:02Oh, I was just say, even I think the general consensus I feel like I've typically seen within like women pastors is that women aren't called to be like the elders and the leaders of the church, but they can speak. But some churches, I know like when I was at a church, they only had me speak to other women. It wasn't speaking to other men. So they're not like forbidding you and you can have your thoughts about that too. But like they're not forbidding women to speak like the Bible says women should be silent. That might have been a contextual thing. But I think now it's like if you're going to speak speak to the women, which I also have opinions on that because the church that we go to the pastors, why I came and spoke on stage and I thought it was pretty dope. But she's not like the head pastor. She's not like the board member. She's not the elders like she I think is allowed to teach. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that you said that you said try and what did you say? The electrical triage. Triage. I never heard that before. Yeah, I mean, I like that. Yeah, I mean, I think there are things that are like we'll die on this hill. Yeah, that's cool. There are other things where you go, we'll fight on this hill. There are other things where you're like this isn't even worth going up the hill.

55:04Like, but I think that's where people get so messy because they hold to their tradition more than anything else for the most part. Instead of like kind of wrestling through it and being like, you know, you can land in a place and crazy. You can still be friends if you disagree on it. Yeah. They say higher education is outdated. You're relevant, but at Grand Canyon University, they do not settle for the status quo. They shatter it. Grand Canyon University offers 100 online undergraduate degrees, emphasis and certifications in areas like nursing, education, business, technology and more. And you can earn your bachelor's online from wherever you are. With flexible learning options designed to fit different goals and lifestyles. And what I love about GCU is that they combine academic excellence, career preparation and Christian values to help students develop practical skills while growing academically, personally and spiritually. Whether you're starting college, changing careers or returning to school,

56:05GCU offers programs designed to help you take the next step towards educational and career goals. This is purpose driven education. Take action, find your purpose. Grand Canyon University visit gcu.edu. I've had this one spot in my home that I wanted to refresh for forever. It wasn't necessarily bad. It just felt like something was missing. And I finally decided it was time to do something about it. I found a piece on Wayfair that was exactly what I was looking for. And it made the whole space feel more finished and functional without having to completely redo the room. And that's what I love about Wayfair. You can find thousands of pieces across so many different styles and price points. So whether you're doing a full remake over or just want to do one little corner of your home and make you feel cozier, there are so many options. I also love that you can filter by what you're looking for and see cards from your photos and reviews before you buy. There are more than 20 million verified five star reviews, which makes it so much easier to feel confident about what you're ordering. And Wayfair verified products are hand vetted by product specialists using a 10 point quality inspection.

57:05Plus, if you're a Wayfair rewards member, you get 5% back on every purchase, which is basically another reason to keep adding things to your cart. Transform your space with pieces that hold up to real life. Join Wayfair rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase. Head to Wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's w-a-y-f-a-i-r.com. Wayfair. Every style. Every home. Wayfair. Every style. Every home. So this next question is a little bit pertinent to obviously a recent episode I did, but not even just about me because I think a lot of people talk about divorce. I think a lot of people will say that divorce is only allowed in two conditions, an unbelieving spouse and infidelity. Correct? Yes. Say yes or no. A lot of people would. I would say that. I would kind of have three abuse, adultery, abandonment. An unbelieving spouse, right? But the Bible does say I was just reading it.

58:06How, in my mind, I think I know the answer, but I'm curious what you would say about how, like, if a woman divorces, she can't remarry. Or, you know, what do you think about divorce and that whole thing? Yeah. I mean, I think it's so, it is so case to get. There's so many details involved in like a marriage between people and then like the dissolving of that marriage. But abuse, abandonment, adultery, I think abandonment would be the one that feels less clear than the other two, like abuse and adultery feel pretty clear-cut. But abandonment, it does talk about in the scriptures how if you have an unbelieving spouse, like stay with them. But then also, if that unbelieving spouse ends up leaving, then let them go. And I think if you fall under any of those three conditions, like divorce would be permitted and then remarriage would be allowed in my opinion. So what if someone is just like, I'm just not happy, I've tried everything, my husband's not

59:10willing to change. He loves sports too much. He's a lazy bum, debtors to father. I'm just so unhappy in this marriage, which we are not talking about my husband. Yeah, yeah. But I get a lot of these dams like after me opening up about my story, I got so many dams of people being like, I wish I could get divorce. My husband's a freaking bum. What do I do? I would say you don't have biblical grounds for divorce if your husband like sports. Where's a bum? Yeah. You know what's interesting about this, though, is I actually think the bigger opportunity that we have here is like, do you guys talk to each other? Can you have hard conversations in your marriage? Because I'll tell you, that is one thing that I feel like is a little bit unique about, I would say me, but then like my wife and I is, I think people would be shocked at the stuff that we say to each other again, bring back the line. Yeah. Like over a glass of wine, I mean, probably like once a week, sometimes once every two

1:00:12weeks, I mean, depending on if I'm gone, like we sit down and it's pretty much like, where am I failing? Where am I failing you? Where am I failing the kids? Am I missing anything? What is something that is driving you nuts about my habits right now? Like that kind of thing, it's just like, you know, iron-charping iron is not just like a good thing for a bad tattoo. It's also like a reality about like your interpersonal relationships that you have. Do you know what they call that? Talking to your wife? They call it debumify. Debumify? Debumify. Did you just make that? Yeah. I think it's an important thing to start debumify. It's actually about your husband, set up them sign up. You go through like things you could be doing wrong as a husband. Yeah. And I've been scrolling real sometime and watch like a bum and not yet debumified. And I'm like, wait a sec, I think I've done that this week. I forgot, I have ADHD really badly. And so I'll leave things places I left to stove on the day. I think I left the bathtub on. I've done the stove, not the bathtub. I

1:01:13left the baths up on. Yeah, that's tough. And okay, it was just at the top. I caught it just in time. It's so good to sit in front of your wife. Yeah. A lot of men don't want to do it, especially while the game's on. They don't want to do it. And to say, hey, what is it that you said it like that I'm missing? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one of the kindest things that you can do is not make them have to say something that scares them. Like, and that goes for both sexes. I think creating a space where it's like, I want to get better for you. And I want to be doing this in a way that like glorifies God. And he gave me his best. I want to give you my best. And I know that I'm not doing that all the time. And that might include, hey, so this could be my house right now. Hey, so you really want to sit in front of a TV from the time that game day starts to the last game that closes. Yeah. And it's like you were done. So I think those are there's some legitimate conversations that need to be had there for sure. But I mean, relationships could be a whole episode. Yeah.

1:02:14I mean, a lot of people are are are looking for a way out because they're just done. Yeah, for sure. As you guys know, Janine, so Janine was a loapt call in college. And people would tell me Caleb Urinson by marrying her. And it's crazy. I didn't know what to do with that. Like I was like, wait, and it made me almost like, I don't know if I'm like, I feel like a lot of people serve just a different God than I guess I knew or am I just doomed. And so what would you say to the person who maybe got divorced for a non permissible reason at the Bible calls and then someone mayor? Is it just is that relationship doomed? Or I would I would never say like your relationship is doomed. I mean, I just like like prodigal son stuff, man, like you can squander and screw up and like the father runs. I would say first off, like I hate that people were saying that to you because

1:03:15I'm like, dude, like when did we just decide like we're just going to open commentary on everyone's life without like being super involved? My biggest thing to those people would be like get involved in a community that like loves you and cares about you and like we'll walk with you through this. And speak truth to you and also come alongside you and support you. That is a terrible thing to say to someone, but I don't I don't think the relationship is doomed. I think oftentimes like in scripture specifically, I mean, back then, you know, it's like Moses permitted us like you could just like hand someone like a piece of paper and just be like, okay, I'm out of here. And I think a lot of the things that you see Jesus saying is it relates to marriage and divorce there. Often have to do with the fact that people were just like wanting to get out for absolutely nothing. And I don't think that there's people today that truly want to get out for absolutely nothing. Usually it's something that can be worked through or it's like a legitimate grievance. And so I would say the biggest thing is like getting involved in a community. I think a lot of people, they date an isolation, they then get

1:04:18married in isolation too. Present, not us, but that's exactly what happened in my story. isolation is a dangerous thing. And like, have you met JP? Yeah, I love JP. My favorite quote that he says is like nothing good happens in isolation. And that's exactly right. Like the enemy attacks you in isolation. It's exactly what happened in my story. Yeah, I mean, I think like in manipulations, a form of like abuse. So I mean, the other thing is like, I say this all the time to the young people that are in our church. I'm like, listen, character welcomes witnesses. Manipulation tries to remove them. So I think that's the, that's the thing is anyone who's like trying to isolate you from people that you've always loved and trusted as someone who can't be trusted. Period. So I think it's a real case to case thing. But I'm like, get around people that can actually like speak the truth to you and stand on the word. But yeah, just be like, this is outright doomed. And I barely know you, but I know parts of Janine's story is insane. So yeah, um, they were doomed. Yeah. He is. He's so good. He has good hairline and he could speak like that.

1:05:22No wonder why your church is growing. Man, yeah, it's a hairline. I would like to do a study at like pastors have bad hairlines. Not a lot of them exist. No, I'm a good, like name a great pastor. We know a pastor. I don't want to call anyone out the bad hairline. We know a pastor that got a hair transplant. We do. Don't say the name. Well, we know somebody who did Ben Stewart shaped me preaching more than anyone. And he's just he just doesn't have hair. He's just ballin. That's not bad. He might have a good. He might have a great hairline. Well, you shake say or I just had a stroke. I'm so jealous of people with good hairlines. So we just got to do one trip to Turkey and then we're back. I was that like the it's like a capital of hair transplant. Is that grounds for abuse? If she's dragging me to Turkey to get a hair transplant? No, I mean, it might work out in your favor. Okay. So Christian influencers, you want to ask the Christian? No, you ask. Go ahead. What do your thoughts on Christian influencers?

1:06:23To real general. And you can be so blatantly honest because obviously I know I'm like kind of in that world, but you can be so honest. We're not offended. I'll be honest. And I it's like a lot of things. It's good and bad. Like I would say I love that there's Christian influencers that are able to reach people in a way that's different than the way that like most people are not probably just initially going to stumble into a church. I don't I don't know like Bryce Crawford at all, but I'm really grateful for him. I am grateful for the way that there are kids that are open to the gospel as a result of what it is that he's doing, which is not even necessarily making it cool, but he's just making it a conversation in context that are familiar to them. And he looks like them. And they're they're all in on that. I am so grateful for that. I think Christian influencers are a great thing, especially like if everyone else gets to speak into culture and context,

1:07:27like why should we not get to do that? And I don't think you should have to be a pastor to do that. The thing I'd say is that I'm concerned. I had a conversation with buddy, my name is pastor and Baltimore about this the other day. I'm concerned that we're going to have a real lack of pastors and people that are like leading churches in any capacity because you guys know how hard this is. People think that you can just set up a microphone in a camera and they can do this. And it is way, way harder than that. And I've no plenty of people who do this that are not just this is this is hard stuff. And people would balk at that, but it is. It's not what they make it out to be. But I think there's a lot of people that they want to be successful with this. And my concern is that they'll they'll get there. And then who is going to run churches? Because I think back to our point earlier about like how scrutinized churches are, who would want to be a pastor right now? Like at least 50% of the people are going to be mad at you

1:08:31depending on like what you say, even if they're take his outside of what scripture has to say, they don't want you to get paid very well or if they do want you to get paid well, they don't want you to get paid too, too well. You got to have a lot of oversight and they don't want it to be people that are your peers. They want it to be people that can actually like hold you accountable and exist in a space to where like they don't have any like skin in the game outside of like, we can just say what you can do or can't do. And you're the most scrutinized, you know, technical sneakers, technical watches. Yeah, I think it's everything's analyzed. Or I think the other thing is then like the job itself is just a lot. You know, if I were to say, how many hours like should I work on a sermon a week? Well, I would just tell you like it's if you want a decent one, it's going to be 15. It's like how much time should I spend praying? People that go out certainly like five hours or something. It's like great, how much time should I spend with other people in the church? Well, I think you should do that. Like by the time you rack up what people think you should do, it's like a ridiculous amount of time, you know, and then it's like, but then the qualifications for staying in that office are hard. It's like, okay, so

1:09:33hey, a lot of people in my church love me. My kids hate me. Oh, yeah. Like so I think it's easier to say, I would rather like I want to make an impact for the kingdom. I'm going to I'd rather be an influencer than be a pastor. That sounds terrible. And I'm like, what are churches going to do in the future? And so like we're really committed to disciplining young people and like pulling that call out of them if we think it exists, but it's tough. So I think it's it's beautiful on one hand and it's scary on the other because I think most people in the next generation are going, I want to be Bryce Crawford. I want to be Janine and Caleb and very few people are going, I want to do a looks doing. Yeah. Wow. That's such a good point. That's so true. And thank you for doing that. Thank you for saying yes to God and being a man. Yeah. Because that is hard. I think people do need to respect all the behind the scenes stuff that pastors really do. It's not just getting up there once a week and preaching a message and like, all right, I'm out. Like there's so much stuff behind the scenes that you'll do. Yeah. No, and like I love it. It's like I'm not a martyr. You know, people would be like, Ben, like truly and I'm like no false humility. People

1:10:35be like, man, thanks for what you do. I'm like, do people get their head cut off for this in other places? Like so I'm just tired. That's cool. I think it's just you want people to want to do this though. And I think there are some, I do think there are some people that feel called to it. And they're just like, that's a lot. I don't know that I want to do that. What do you say to people that are like offended almost that they don't get to talk to their pastor? Because you know, as these churches grow, the pastors get more quote unquote famous. Yeah. The line gets really long. They're trying to preach three services a day. They can't stand there for an hour. And some people are like, oh, my pastor didn't even give me the time of day. You know, he goes to the green room. He immediately leaves like, what do you say about that? I think there's a difference between like being a green room guy and being like just inaccessible. So like I'm in the lobby. I've never in the green room ever. Like I'm always out there like amongst people. So like, but I think I do think there has to be like some measure of grace. I do think there's a lot of people that think their pastor gets paid to be their friend. And also like I would say there's a couple or they're like,

1:11:37but I have an issue. And I'd be like, there are some issues. Like if it's just like a biblical issue and whatever, but like pastors aren't counselors. Like, you know, either like a lot of them, which is a hot take as well. But I don't think pastors should be doing a whole lot of like mental health counseling necessarily. And there's actually like quite a few things that are going on right now, even like under the law where churches and pastors are getting like crushed because someone's like, hey, like so I'm having all these intrusive thoughts and like we'll take every thought captive. And they're like, no, look, I, it's like, okay, yeah, but like your brain's not producing dopamine. So there's like a different thing there, you know, so that's a whole different thing. But I think I said this on another podcast and I got crushed for it. I'll say it again. I nobody, your pastor, like didn't get in this to be like celebrity. Only other people can make your pastor a celebrity pastor. We make celebrities. Celebrities don't make themselves. If we could, we'd make ourselves one. So I think like if you have to talk to the guy

1:12:38wearing the microphone, that says more about you than about them. Because if there's other pastors on staff, like I, you know, someone was like, oh, you're like, don't want to talk to this guy. I'm like, no, but if someone comes to, if someone says, hey, like I'm in construction and I'm struggling to find a construction job. And I just wondered if I could meet with you because I'm really just hoping that there's someone I can talk to that can like help me get a job in construction. And if I say, hey, I know someone that actually works in construction that goes to our church. I think you should go get lunch with them. And they're like, wow, I can't believe you don't want to get with me. Like it's like, no, it's just if the goal is to get a job in construction, I'm trying to like use the benefits of the body to help. I think, yeah, I think the hard thing is this. And this is where I'm like, I don't care what the internet says. Like I'd stand tentos down. If again, like if I, if I were able to do everything that everyone wants me to do all the time, I could appease a lot of people, but I'd lose my family and like bump that man. Like,

1:13:41see you later. Like my kids get priority over you every day and twice on Sunday. My wife's not getting my leftovers. And that's biblical. Yeah. Those are like the qualifications. Exactly. That's a goal. And I want to get with people in my church. It just, it might take a while for them to get to everyone if your church is growing. And I do think again, completely different issue if you're like, he preaches and then I don't see him. Like I like to go in my favorite thing is to like be out there like with our people because it's just fun to see everyone every week. And so I think it's, it's a little bit of a convoluted thing, but yeah. What about day in the life of a pastor in Florida? What if a pastor started like making day in the lives? Would that be, could that be an issue? I mean, I think, I think you could be like, you know, like it does he work more than Sunday, but you know, like Luke, imagine you wake up, you got tripod in the bed. Show yourself getting out of the bed, putting on a shirt, brushing teeth. I can't do what you're doing, bro. Like I can't, I can't do what you do, man. No. What type of brand knows is a pastor

1:14:46getting. I'm thinking when a logos, you get like a logo steel like, right? Yeah. I mean, there's, there's not many, you know, crossways giving you freebibles or something to pass out. So yeah, I think it would just be a Christian merch company to work with him. Yeah. Send me an email and we'll work on that. Yeah, it's great. I'll shoot you something. What are your thoughts on Christian's cursing? Because I'll be honest, Luke, when I step my toe, I'm working on sometimes, sometimes something will fly out. Yeah. You can find out of there. Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say I wouldn't advocate for cussing just on its face. I don't think it's the greatest use of language. I would also say that I think Christians think that righteousness comes by way of behavior modification, more than sanctification. And I do think that I do think that the sermon on the mount is like applicable here in a really, in a really uncomfortable way. Like, listen, I don't have the cleanest

1:15:52lips. When I didn't grow up in a like pastors house, I don't have any pastors in my family that I know. So like, my background was like, I mean, dude, I was in sports. Like, I mean, I would let them fly. And, you know, I'm always trying to get better. But like, here's, here's the thing. Like, Christians are so funny that we will, we will use the closest equivalent to the bad word as if now it's a good word. So you won't say the F word, but you'll say Frick. Fudge. Called out. You won't say the S word, but you'll say shoot. And I- Not shes. Shat. Yes. Like, and I think, here's my question is if I were to ask a Christian, hey, do you believe in the sermon on the mount? So absolutely, I believe in the looks of me. Like, it's like the found a yeah, okay. Great. So Jesus says, if you look at a woman less fully, then you've, then you've committed adultery. Do you think that that doesn't apply to when you say shoot when you stub your toe that it's the same thing going on in your heart than if you were to say a different four letter word? Say it. Luke. Yeah. So, and then, and I think like the

1:16:56point of the sermon on the mount is that like Jesus raises the standard so high and makes it about your heart and not just behavior, that people are like, nobody can possibly live up to that. And he's like, you're correct, nobody could possibly live up to that. The sermon on the mount ultimately becomes the mountain that Jesus will hike his cross up and die on that hill for us because nobody can ascend that hill. And so I would say that it's, I wouldn't condone cussing just in general. If someone were like, can I just do this flip? I'd be like, no, I don't think that's a great thing. But I also think that there's a huge difference between like cursing and being like, you know, if that's person, you know, versus like if someone stubs their toe and says a word that you otherwise wouldn't think is fine. And I think that's that is one of the things that I think loses people that are like, I'm on the gospel is not serious. Not not because I'm trying to create insensitivity to the spirit like in my own life, I'm always trying to get better at not, you know, being frustrated or using words that would like make people like, but I think in general, we've we have made

1:18:01that like a hallmark where it's like, I think actually the stance even harder than we make it. That's really good. Okay. But what do you say when people are like, well, I'm cussing so I can relate to people so I can bring them into the gospel so they can see that like, I'm poor and I'm normal and I'm like, yeah, yeah, I see no, I don't think that's like, I don't think and like, listen, I mean, I think sometimes people just want to be able to do what they want to do. And that would be a really clear illustration. It's like, no, I don't think being like the world is a good way to get people out of it. That's right. At all. And it's the, you know, going back to the similar, it's the antithesis of like salt and light, which is different in the way that it preserves, different in the way that it's not dark. You put it on a lamp stand like you put the thing that's the differentiator out there and people go, hey, what is different about you? So I think you actually have a better people of winning people over to the gospel if they realize you don't do

1:19:04the same things that other people do and they go, hey, why is it that you don't? And if you can do it without being real pompous about it, that's the real trick for believers. That's really good. Well, that was so fun. That was so fun. Thank you for letting us put you in the hot seat. Yeah. Just so like well-spoken, biblical, knowledgeable. I mean, obviously, have a very healthy, successful church, healthy family, healthy marriage. You've blessed our life, our marriage. We'll be here today without Luke. When when Janina and I's relationship was kind of up in the air, I got coffee with Luke and I was like telling him everything she was doing and she's not really texting me back, she's not doing these things and he looked at me and goes, well, man, maybe, he was trying to let me down easy. I don't think she's that into you. Maybe I've got some space. Gave her some space. So Luke's the reason why we're married and we owe him our life. I take that credit. Yes. For our next child, we'll be named Luke. Yeah. Do you can Luke? Do you can look? Actually, I'm not pregnant. I'm not against naming our son, Luzon. Honestly, yeah. It's kind of a cool. There you go. You know, it makes me think of, you can look at this too much. Yeah. Demons

1:20:08or love that. Legion. I'm just kidding. Luzon, yeah. Luzon, yeah. Yeah. Luzon, yeah. Luzon, yeah. Got that a lot grown up. Yeah. Is there anything you want to plug? Do you have any books? You want to plug podcasts? Anything else that people can just follow? Click on. Go to their church. If you live in Orlando, great church, key church. No, I don't have anything. I did start a sub-stack and I'm picking up writing again. It's been a while because I had to lead a church and I still am, but I've actually created Margin to write again. I love doing that. It's called entering and getting is the newsletter for that. Just fun. We'll link that down below. Check that out. Other than that, no. I'm just honored to be here. Love you guys a lot. Honored to be an Oklahoma in the studio, baby. First guest in the studio. Yes. This is epic. You're sick of me. Okay. Well, thank you guys for listening to today's episode. We hope it helped you out. It helped you answer maybe some of these questions you've been wrestling with. So leave a comment with your thoughts where you disagree, agree, and other way. You know, we're standing on this. Feel free. You want to link your email so that they're mad at you. You can

1:21:10just send them an email. Yeah. K-word. That's funny. Thanks for watching. You guys will see you next week for another episode of Happy and Healthy. Stay healthy. Bye guys. Yes. You're strong. You freeze the deck. That's what. With great power, comes great deniability. I'm not the earth, daddy. Digger. See the tree long on. Only in the years until we're second. Wait a door. Under 17. I don't know without parent. When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's fall job are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy to layer styles meet the demands of your day.

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