Andy Cohen Built the Bravoverse. He Still Thinks Like a Producer.

0:00You know, BravoCon, we do in Vegas. We've got 30,000 people going to absolutely idolize the almost 200 Bravo liberties that go and take. Bravo, Leverties. Yes, Bravo, Leverties, Kara. And they are able to sell things at booths. They are able to. They're like a giant star Trek event. Yes, I mean, they're, you know, yeah. It's all. Hi, everyone from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Andy Cohen. The host and executive producer of Watch What Happens Live and executive producer of the Real Housewives franchise. He curates two serious XM channels, Radio Andy and Andy Cohen's Kiki Lounge, runs his own book imprint and co-host CNN's New Year's Eve Live with Anderson Cooper. He's also the author of several best-selling memoirs and his latest book is Andy's Bravo

1:03Scrap Book, which is out October 20th. I always want to talk to Andy. I met him a long time ago. He probably doesn't remember. But he's always really interesting and I think a lot like oddly enough Ryan Seacrest and others sort of under sung in how much business he does. And so I want to talk about business and of course his quirky personalities, relationships, and also his outspokenness against President Trump, which is I think unusual in the celebrity area. And of course not the person we asked to do the expert question, Rosie O'Donnell, Lend Jury comedian and talk show host. She's also an outspoken activist and recently wrapped up a stint as guest host of Jimmy Killman Live on ABC. So stick around. Support for this show comes from the Guardian and their new show, State Side. Their journalist Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of the Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what

2:04is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources the Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And the Guardians not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to the Guardian.com slash State Side to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcast or watch on YouTube. That's the Guardian.com slash State Side. Support for this show comes from O'Doo. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them ever talk to each other. That's where O'Doo comes in. And it all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system.

3:08Try it today for free at odoo.com slash Kara. That's odoo.com slash Kara. This episode is brought to you by Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Here true stories from noble laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do. Listen to Choiceology at Schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen. Annie, thanks for coming on on. Thanks for having me. I kind of stalked you, didn't I, through Anderson Cooper. You know what? By the way, a flattering stalk. Yeah, yeah. I would say. I mean, do you know where we met? You don't know. You probably don't remember. That's okay.

4:08It's all right. I'm going to go to the center at the sunset towers with Lauren Zalaznik, early days. Wow. Long time ago. Long time ago. And you were there and you were hysterical at the head of the table. Okay. Yeah, you were great. But was it just the three of us? No, it was one of those Lauren's. Yes, yes. You know, to me. And I had just finished the code conference and I had interviewed all the tech things. And you were actually, you had some questions about Mark Zuckerberg and everything else. Yes. Okay. Wow, I did remember that. Yeah. It was a great place. Like, because Lauren deserved a lot of credit. All of you do about what it was, but at the time I think it was Queerai for the Strait Guy. There was a couple of. It was Project Runway, Queerai. Yeah, we started with. And then we added Top Chef to do what Project Runway was doing for fashion, for food and then a little show called The Real Housewives. Right. What? A little show, little show. We're going to get into that and say, But it was really interesting because the time Queerai was unusual and strange. I was really the thing that turned Bravo around and that was before my time.

5:09I got the pitch for queer. I was working for Barry Diller at a small arts channel and you knew from that pitch that it was going to be amazing. Bravo actually cast it with them and it was amazing. And so yes, but Lauren brought me over to Bravo in 2004. And now I've been there 22 years, which is wild. I know. It was early on. And the thing was that you all were sort of the side. People look for the fancy entertainment. This was more people's entertainment a lot of ways. And at the time, I thought it was going to be huge because it also kind of tracked what was happening online, which was a much more personal, parasocial relationship people have with television that hadn't been separate. Watch what happens live. I think was one of the first. We're now, we've been going 17 years. You know, the only live show in late night and also a show that was really driven by viewer comments, and live polls.

6:09And so they're kind of the fourth person in the clubhouse driving the conversation. And at the time, it was looked upon as shabby kind of thing, same thing with the Kardashians. And I had just interviewed Kim Kardashian because I thought it was fascinating what she was doing online at the time. You figured that out. Well, early. I was really invited her to this conference and she was like, what do you want me here? And I was like, what you're doing is parasocial. So 20 years into the Real Housewives franchise, which really did. You're in your 20-year-old house. That was the jet of the whole thing. Yes. You know, those other shows are the beginnings of what you saw. And you're the face of the Bravo TV network, obviously. And most people see you, you know, as a reality TV celebrity, like the people on the franchise, talk about what set yourself apart from the stars you also created, because you're at the center of it. Well, right. I am, you know, I'm not on the shows. So well, it's funny that you say that. I just had this debate with a writer for Vulture who said, you're a reality star.

7:10And I said, I don't think I am. I said, I think I'm a reality star. I'm a ringleader of sorts, which my publicist hates that expression. But, you know, in some sense, it's there. But I mean, look, I'm a producer and a broadcaster is what I really am. Right. Why do you go away from that idea that you yourself are a character? You know what? I think because I have control of my own edit. So I take it as far as I want it to go. I was dating someone for a year before anyone found out about it. And they found out about it against it was not on my timing that they found out about it. They were going to, but I was going to be in charge of when I said it. So, you know, no one is in charge of my head. You're the reality star god really. And so I don't know about that. Yeah. Minor god. You know, Duke. Yeah, Duke. You're the Duke. That's nice. A vicon. A vicon.

8:10For people that understand, as you did notice, you're the producer, even though you're the face of it, you work behind the scenes and television. Let's talk about that. You know, Conan is someone that I've really bonded with about this because he was a writer. And then he wound up hosting the tonight show. I've been a producer for my whole career. I was at CBS News from 1990 to 2000. And then I was working for Barry launching this cable channel and then I went and started working for Bravo in 2004. And so at some point during that run and I was in charge of programming and we launched all these shows, including the Real Housewives. She knew that I had wanted to be on the air when I was at CBS years ago. I'd wanted to be on this, the air. My friend, Jay Kurnes, who's still a producer at Sunday morning said, well, you have this wonky eye. So I don't think you're going to get on, on the air, which I do. And so I kind of just focused on being behind the scenes, which was amazing, by the way.

9:12And Lauren knew I still wanted to do this. I was writing a blog. I was one of the first TV executives to have a daily blog, not only about the show, but also it was kind of, I was going out every night and doing things. And so I was kind of branding myself before that was a thing and annoying thing. It was almost like a podcast, kind of thing. Yes. Same with things. Yes. But you grew up in St. Louis watching soap operas like all my children. Yes. Talk to be about those soaps. It shaped your idea of entertainment. Well, I think the real housewives is the great American, well, now international, you know, docu soap opera. And it's real. And these are real people. But I think if you look at the care that we have taken in producing that show and keeping it on the air and taking people out and bringing people in and bringing people back and using flashbacks and it's really, it is influenced in part by certainly my love. And I think a lot of producers that we have working with us are reverence for the daytime

10:16drama, right? I grandmother called them her stories. Yeah. Because I'm watching my story. Right. Exactly. And I loved all my children. And I, there was a moment in time where I wanted to be a writer for soaps and I came up with a Bible of what I, where it was like a year of storylines of all my children. You did this when you were in college. I did it. Yeah. But I also was super interested in broadcast journalism. So I went that way, but the great thing for me there was that I really learned about storytelling in the edit room. I was working for 48 hours and those were long form character driven stories where you could pick up little ticks about someone's life in 48 hours and craft a piece around that person. And I will say those working at CBS News and hitting deadlines. I mean, that was, that was disciplined. It gave me not only discipline, but it gave me the ability to make fast decisions in the

11:16field as they related to storytelling and writing. I was writing on deadlines. I have a new book out called Andy's Bravo Scrapbook and it's 20 years behind the scenes of the housewives and the Bravoverse. And these are all photos that I've taken. Right. It reminded me of the SNL book. Do you remember that? I mean, these are photos that I've taken from behind the scenes of Bravo. But the reason I say it is I've written five other books and I am a very deadline oriented person and I got that from CBS News. I mean, you started as an intern. I was an intern in 1989. Yeah. I was an intern at the Washington Post. Great. I mean, you can't beat it. No, you can't beat it. You can't. And then I graduated college in 90 and I moved to New York and I was like, I want to work at CBS News and a desk assistant left soon after and I got a job there. And the thing you did for Barry was trio, right? Trio, yes. Yeah. We're not cool. It was brilliant, but canceled. Friends, but canceled. Yes. So what was you didn't want to stay in news at pop culture and entertainment were always

12:18your thing? You know what? I had a very great job and standing at CBS News. But Barry had become a friend of mine and he knew me and he believed in me. And he offered me a job as head of programming at this cable channel. He was starting and he said, look, and the idea for this pop culture and arts channel was that it would be kind of a more accessible version of PBS and it would be high and low. And my whole career has been high and low. Sort of like Tina Brown at Vanity Fair. I think so. I think high and low is the way to be. Way to go. Yeah. And you liked the were attracted to the pop culture and it's I liked and I thought, when am I ever going to get the chance to learn about programming television from Barry Dillard? So I it was a decision made for me. One of the things that people thought initially about this stuff was tapping into people's voyeuristic tendencies. Yes. Yes. Been around forever.

13:18And of course there was MTV's real world, Mark Burnett shows like Survivor and the Apprentice. How are you thinking conceiving of house wise and that with that backdrop? Because those had been on previously. Man named Scott Dunlop brought us a tape of these women in Orange County and they were the show was not decided on what it would be. But we thought these women were aspirational in a way we hadn't seen this in certain insurance agent named Vicki talked about getting her breasts enlarged. She was a mom yet she had a grotto in her backyard and her kids were beautiful. And the way that they talked to their kids was certainly different than we were talking to our kids on the east coast. And it was just in a window inside a world and there was something sexy about it. And at that time, desperate housewives was a big hit on ABC.

14:20And we just said, let's follow these women until their stories. And for me, it was localized in the way that they all lived in the same neighborhood. This is where it was pinging for me. I was like, this is like Pine Valley. This is a reality. Right. They all had opinions about the other women. They were all friends. We made the men's secondary characters. And the women were in front. It was always going to be told from their point of view. That's kind of how it started. So obviously Andy Warhol has known for the quote in the future, everyone will be famous for five minutes. You've talked a lot about how Warhol's a major inspiration for you. He said if he was alive today, part of you thinks he would be painting the real house-wise and they would be part of the factory. Talk about the way he approached fame and why that has impact on him. Well, I mean, I think that he saw people as superstars. I mean, I think if you look at his superstars, they were unique people from all over who landed in New York, who were this group of meds feds, who he wanted to kind of make into stars, but they were already stars to him.

15:22So it's wild to me now, 20 years into the housewives that they are all international stars. And I think that Warhol also, look, he predicted reality television. What would he do today? What would he do today besides painting housewives? Well, I don't know because it's an explosion of everything that he, you know, but you know, it's interesting because I from the beginning of the housewives have taken a picture of this is me in the middle and these are reunion shows settings. And I've taken a picture of the women from my vantage point every season of the show. Wow. And they're very, these photos are unretouched. Right. And they're very kind of words and all. Yeah. And you can see a lot in the photos. Yeah. And they are so far apart to me. They're a little freakish. They're a little, they're a little tan bird's eye. Yeah, no, there's a lot of makeup. There's a lot of extensions.

16:23There's a lot of happening. But they say so much to me. And I think these photos in this book are very pop art. I really think so. And I think this is a very warholian look at Bravo, I think. Right. And in the book itself. Yes. Yeah. Well, or Bravo is warholian. The warholian. Yes. And one of the things, you know, when I, as I said, interviewed Kim Kardashian, everyone was like, why are you interviewing her? I'm like, she's very important to come. Yeah, what kind of feedback did you got on this interview, Kara? Yes, well, actually good. Oh, okay, good. Because people thought that was she herself didn't think she was worthy of it, which I was like, why wouldn't you be? Of course, there are always the comments about her not being a feminist. And I was like, I think it's a little more complex than that. That's what I thought. Right. And so you said in the past that Real Houseways is a feminist show. Yes. I was taken with feminists. You admire like Lena Dunham and Roxanne Gay, two tough critics to make sure they're still watching. And even at Gloria Steinem on watch, what happens live in 2015, she's gone up there.

17:28And she's and seem really bothered when she called the series a minstrel show for women. Right. Talk to me about why you think it is. I don't agree with her. I think it's much more interesting than that. Well, it is. Look, I think it's very easy to look at clips of the house. And make a generalization that's not great in a whole lot of directions. But I think when you watch, first of all, it is the story about being a woman in America over the last 20 years. And the women have talked about being sexually assaulted. They've talked about divorcing husbands. They've talked about the difficulty of playing the role in a marriage that their husband wants them to be. Through it all, by the way, an interesting thing has happened to so many of the women that have come on the show is that they found their voice on the show. And it's given them a platform some have really definitely changed them.

18:30Some of them have realized I was not happy in this marriage, but I didn't see a way out. And I didn't see how I was until I watched myself. One of the reasons that I think that it's a feminist show is that it has, I look at certain women on the shows who own their sexuality and they own who they are in their opinions and their thoughts. And by the way, some of them are very conservative women who own the way that they feel about their roles in a marriage or their roles in politics or business that may not be what I agree with, but they're very themselves. That's kind of what Femme was supposed to be. Exactly. I mean, in a lot of ways. Exactly. I mean, in a lot of ways. They own their sexuality. They're women over 50. I feel like the amount of women over 50 that we've given a platform to to say, you are sexy and you're beautiful and you can do whatever you want. And there's, you don't have to confine by any rules that a man makes.

19:34You should make your own rules and you do your own thing. You don't let a man define you. That plays out season after season. It's interesting because I have a lot of friends, lesbian friends who I wouldn't have liked it. And I'm always surprised. They're like not bothered by it. It depends on who you are. Absolutely. To me, I don't know why you get bothered by someone who wants to do that or not. Yes. And I do see the idea of if this is the only vision of a woman. Yes. Exactly. And there can't be. They can't speak for all women. And excessive body changing. But it's still happening. That is also a reflection of where we are as a culture. Right. Exactly. Do you think it pre-saged? How everyone became so performative online? Because now, I mean, the housewives don't even seem extreme anymore. I know. I think there are various factors to that. You're going to have to have some executions on that. I think the president hasn't helped matters in the online thing. Right. But it's headed that way anyway. Yeah. Yes. So, but being on camera, your show, Watch What Happens Live, Starges, a digital series

20:34to Star Wars. Starges, a digital series. It's sort of raw and chaotic in 2009. I went back and looked at one. Talk about the show as evolved as a cultural phenomenon. And why it marries with it. It started as an after show online in like 2007 or something or six. And it was on after Top Chef and Project Runway. And then in 2009, I started doing it once a week and then twice a week. And then we got and then we got taken to five days a week. The interesting thing is my show has not changed very much in 17 years. I mean, it's very it's interactive. It's live. Graham Norton was a big influence. It's unscripted. It is we don't pre-interview our guests. I had Rob Lowe on last night for a half hour. And he was like, God, that was so fun. And I and I remind people. I hate the pre-interview. Yes. I decline them. I hate the pre-interview. Yeah. It sucks. No. And one time Steve Jobs is like, are you going to give me the question of like, I'm not.

21:37Right. Enjoy yourself. Right. Let's have a conversation. Yeah. I mean, it's so much more interesting. Yeah, especially celebrities. Yes. Exactly. And they come in and they're there. Many celebrities who are scared to do my show because it's too dangerous for them because they know I'm going to go there. But I want people to leave happy is the thing. Yeah, it does have a lot of ground on it and feel it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it's brilliant. Me too. Me too. I'm also stalking him. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Try to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news and subscription based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information.

22:41State side with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, host Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs, climate, culture sports, lifestyle fashion and wellness. Once the Guardian wants to emphasize their not billionaire own, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to the guardian.com slash date site to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube starting May 13. Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all, legacy, stability and digital innovation. Things that work with your other systems, because with the right partner, the question is in crypto or traditional finance.

23:42The question is simply, why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. For informational purposes only, availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities. Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at Lululemon.com. I want to talk a little bit about the difficulties of the show. It's like reality 2, it's not without its controversy. In 2024, former real housewife filed a lawsuit against you in Bravo Legend, the show created a hostile work environment where drug use and drinking were encouraged, a lawsuit headed to trial, though you in the network refiled the motion to dismiss.

24:42There's a whole range of things around behaviors on the show. Then of course, the unionization effort by Bethany Frank, all of all people, to unionize the housewives. You've differentiated reality stars from actors saying, quote, you don't go to school to become a reality star. Reality stars typically have other jobs. You talk about these things. I mean, obviously you run a business too. I don't think people realize it. It's, well, I mean, what specifically do you want me to talk about? That was the thing that was the lawsuit. Well, I can't really speak to that. I will say there are, I'm so proud of the stories that we've told of the women who have either come into the show sober or gotten sober on the show. And there are so many examples of really incredible stories of sobriety on all of our shows. And I would argue that we really celebrate that. And if you see someone who's had too much to drink, I don't think it's an aspirational occurrence on the show. Yeah.

25:43Where does this lawsuit go to? I don't know. You got to ask. Yeah. You don't know. And you can't comment on it. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the reason why I think that there's a lot of them now. How many housewives do you have at this? We have a lot of housewives. They are compensated really well. And I think that there are a whole list of reasons why I could tell you that I'm against that and why it all fell apart. I mean, most people who are on reality shows are on for one season to most reality shows are competition shows where someone are coming on trying to cook or sing on American Idol. So most of them are compensated as such and you're going on to win a contest. So that's a huge percentage of the shows. The shows where you're on for a long period of time, the longer you're on a show, the more money you make on the show.

26:46And the money that's being made on these shows is really good. And also you're giving a platform to sell any variety of things. I mean, you can actually, if you work it correctly, you can wind up with an incredible platform right. Yeah. Skinny girl, right? That she creates. That's separate from you all. Yes. That's separate from you. You're saying you're giving the platform this is a contest and they're not actors. The Sanchez. That's that's that's three things. Right. Right. Do you, does it take away from your show or in weird ways that all these, the sort of the attack that those two. No. I mean, look, I think that in the hundreds of people that we've put on television and have had positive experiences with the shows, I think these are two examples of people saying I didn't and everyone has a story and an experience, but I would say overwhelmingly we've got, you know, Bravo Con, we do in Vegas, we've got 30,000 people going to absolutely idolize

27:53the almost 200 Bravo liberties that go and take it. Bravo. Yes. Bravo. Yes. Bravo. Liberty's Kara. And they are able to sell things at booths. They are able to get in. You know, yeah, I mean, and they're all compensated to be there. Right. Right. I would say it's an actually an incredible universe that we've created that makes a lot of people happy, including the people that are on the shows. When you think of the criticisms level that you, what do you think is a fair one that's changed that you've changed yourself, like a fair one? That's a good question. Well, I mean, I've had criticisms about sometimes the way I interview people or things like that. I mean, criticisms about me on the radio interrupting too much or, you know, things like that, which I think are always constructive and great. I feel I'm really proud of the way that we have worked with the people on Bravo.

28:56I'll stand 10 toes down on our entire, on the 20 plus years that I've been with this company and the shows we've produced and the relationships that we've had and the experiences that people have had on them. When you think about what you find the most successful of the ones on Bravo, like looking through this scrapbook, besides the house I shows, which is sort of the full crime presumably. Right. Is there something that you're particularly proud of? Well, I mean, I'm proud of Belodec, which is, I think the perfect reality show. I mean, it's a workplace drama. People are actually paying to be charter guests on these boats and the real deadlines, always a junk. There's barely any HR on the boat. So they're, you know, the crew's hooking up the guests are trying to love boat. There's a lot happening. Yes. Love boat. It is like love boat or it's like Downton Abbey, you know, on a boat. So it's really, it's, it's a really fun show and it's a huge show.

29:58There are several spin-offs of that going and Top Chef remains, you know, the leader in food television. I'm really proud of that. And Vanderpump rules had an amazing 10 year run. I mean, summer house is peaking right now. So there are some great unscripted shows. There's one thing that didn't work that you were like. Oh, there's so many things that didn't work. You like it. Well, you know what? There was a show called NYC Prep that I was a, that it was a prep school kids. All the shows, Cossop Girl. It was real life Cossop Girl. And we did it for one season. Right. And we couldn't do it again. All of the schools were like, wait, what? And the parents were like, wait, what? I mean, we did it for one season. It's a great show. It's really beloved in the canon. In the canon. Is there anything that like really upset you, that one upset you didn't work? It just, they couldn't do it again. I want you to let the guy out of the prep school back. The first show I produced for Bravo was it was my conceit that all the big stars on TV

31:00were reality stars. So we brought back battle and network stars from the 70s. You know you did that. We shot it in Pepperdine and we did it. We had the network sequence. Pepperdine universe. You know, live Los Angeles. Pepperdine universe. Yeah. And we put people from Project Runway against American idols and survivors and all these people and it was just a bomb. And I was so sure it was going to be a big hit. Well, that was the thing of the 70s. Because you were those short shorts. I know. You can't really do that today. It wasn't as good at the time. I know. The things I subjected those TV stars to. I've been it aired on E, I think it would have been successful. Successful. Yeah. Is there any that you never made that you wanted to make? You know, drag race, I wish we would have made. It seemed like Project Runway to us at the time. You know, I was proposed to you. I think it may have been. Right. Yeah, I think it may have been. Yeah. Who's the sticker on your computer? Who is this? Oh, that's Betty White. Oh, that's Betty White. You're staring at it. It looks like Agnes Nixon who created all my children, actually.

32:03Well, okay. All right. Now it's Betty White. Yes. You know, she's the patron saint of all women in these cases. Yes. She'd be good on a celebrity show. Yes. If you did today. Yes. We'll be back in a minute. Okay. Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Louis Le Mans fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Louis Le Mans fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at LouisLe Mans.com. Hi, it's Kara. Like most people, I have a few favorite songs at artists, but I don't always know a lot

33:04about their history. Often, we've never learned about how they originate or how they influence the way life is today. That's exactly why I'm excited to introduce a fresh podcast from the Box Media Podcast network called Monday Music Club, led by host Will Anderson. Each episode delves into the pivotal moments that have molded our musical world, tracing the tales behind unforgettable songs and the artists and creative minds who've reshaped culture along the way. Will brings real lived in expertise to the table as a former frontman of the All Pop band parachute. He's earned platinum and gold records and played to sell up crowds worldwide. That background combined with his natural curiosity about music's history turns every episode into an eye-opening journey. Whether you're a music history buff, love, geeking out over songwriters simply want a new way to enjoy the songs you already love, Monday Music Club is where the journey starts. New episodes release every Monday, watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

34:06Has American foreign policy become a tool for private gain and anti-democratic ideology? They look for alliances and relationships not based on the idea that they're building a broad realm of peace and prosperity rather they're looking for deals and relationships that are good for them. I'm John Feiner and I'm Jake Sullivan and we're the host of The Long Game, a Weekly National Security Podcast. This week, journalist Ann Applebaum joins us to discuss her reporting on how private wealth and far-right ideology are reshaping American foreign policy. The episode is out now. Search for and follow The Long Game, wherever you get your podcasts. So let's talk about the broader landscape because you're doing a lot of other things besides doing this. I'm a busy person but you're incredibly busy. Obviously, you have your matchup with Anderson Cooper. You've been friends for decades. By the way, Anderson and I are in DC October 10th and Philly November 14th and we do, we

35:07were on tour for four years. We were in about 60 cities over four years. We talk, tell stories, show a lot of clips and it's a really fun night. It's like New Year's Eve live or stage basically. Right, right, right. And it's a really great fun night out. It's called AC2 and we've been doing it for years. I've known Anderson since the early 90s and of course, we're, this year is going to be our 10th year doing New Year's Eve. Yeah, we've been doing a place, Kathy Griffin in 2017. Yeah. You came the most iconic odd couple. Talk a little bit about that. It seemed unlikely. I guess he's a straight man, so to speak. You know, we've been friends, as I said, for a very long time. And one of the dynamics of our friendship is that I just, you know, give him a lot of crap and make him giggle. And I not only know how to push his buttons in that regard, but also I feel like with him, I know how to put quarters in him to get the best out of him.

36:08And I love him so much. He's a dear friend of mine, but I also find him incredibly, you know, smart. He's the rare person in a lost breed of people. And he's got a lot of class. He's got a lot of loyalty. He's got a lot of great stories. He's got a lot of curiosity. He knows everybody. He is one of the most respected journalists still on television in a moment where everyone's so divisive, divided. He's a very kind man. He's a very kind man. And he's a very kind man. He really is. He is. You do bring out something in him. It's a really interesting. These, these live ones you've done since what year? Our tour? Yeah, our tour. We were doing it, I think, since like 2016 or 17. A long time. Then we stopped because we had kids. And then I begged him like a year ago. I was like, dude, we're leaving money on the table. Also, we had so much fun. We could go somewhere together. So, you can see your fans. And see your fans. So one of the things that's interesting about both of you, now Anderson's part of Warner

37:13Discovery, which is merging with Paramount now. You worked for the other big media company, NBC Universal, has its own big show, so they spin off a Versus, Comcast Dance, again, it's the spin off NBC yet again, into a public and get traded company. I want to talk about that because I'm an entrepreneurial news person. You are an entrepreneur entertainment slash news person. Talk about that, what's happening now. How do you look at it as someone who is a producer and who revered like CBS the way I revered the Washington Post the near times, but I'm not there anymore. Right. Well, I mean, I think that it creates less individuality and less competition and, you know, I'm down about it. I'm down about it. What is it for someone like you who's a producer? Well, I mean, for me, I happen to work for the best brand in television and one of the few brands that actually mean something to anyone anymore. So I am so thrilled to have my ship anchored at Bravo.

38:16I mean, NBC Universal. So, you know, look for a channel like Bravo. NBCU has tripled down on Bravo. Every time they split the company, they keep Bravo with us. I think that this peacock YouTube deal is going to be incredible, not only for peacock, but then for Bravo, which is a huge driver for peacock. And peacock is launching this Bravo verse, which I am hosting. That is absolutely going to be an incredible universe for Bravo fans to get lost in. What I mean to say, how do you like, in addition to your work of Bravo in CNN, you curate in host shows, the serious XM channel radio Andy recently took over Howard Stern's channel 101. Yeah. A lot of programming. You've been running it for over 10 years. Yeah. You're putting a lot of things in different basket. Many just talk about that because I think about that a lot. Well, I'm a person who, if I am given the opportunity to add to the portfolio of things

39:19that I'm doing, and it's something that's interesting to me, I say absolutely us. And so Anderson and I, this tour, it started at a time when I didn't have kids and we could go on the road 11 weekends of the year. With the radio, I was offered a talk channel 11 years ago. And I thought, wow, at that point, I had left being in charge of programming at Bravo. So I was like, wow, I can not only program this radio channel, but it can be the other channel. It was almost like the anti Bravo for me. Dan Rather, Sandra Bernhard has a show on it. Bevy Smith, John Alter. So it became kind of this, I could do long form interviews with authors. And today I interviewed Stallone about his new book for an hour. And so it just for me, it makes my endorphins go in a whole other area than producing the housewives or hosting what should have been. Again, back to the business thing, people don't think of you that way, but it's very clear

40:22you're an entrepreneur in that regard. Yes. When you decide what to do, if you had to give advice to you, because not everyone can do it. And everyone who leaves major places comes to me. I should run a professor. Yes. Yes. And the only thing I, two things I tell them, some people are going to make it. They just start like Don Lemon when he got fired. I was like, here's what you do. You're right. That kind of stuff, whatever happens to me. It worked. Because I knew it, because it was like that. But in a lot of ways, a lot of people aren't equipped for that. You are attached to a big organization, but are doing entrepreneurs. Well, look, I've been lucky because usually when you're attached to an organization, you're only attached to that organization. It was amazing to me that I was able, with serious, that's all audio. So that's not videos. So I am working in an audio medium. I now have a music channel also there with the CNN thing. That was a bit of an anomaly, but NBCU knew my relationship with Anderson.

41:24And they gave it to me. And I made an argument to them that I think was very correct that this would be great promotion for me and thus for them. Well, they don't see that. I say that to a lot of people. What do you care if I'm more famous over here? Yes. Well, some people. I think you need to be promiscuous in the meeting. I agree. I agree. Yes, I love it. I agree. And thankfully, I had a boss that understood that. And I feel like if you can make a good argument for something. And also, by the way, I've gone to them with many things and said, hey, how do you feel about this? And they're like, yeah, maybe not. And I say fine. I mean, so I also trust that they're looking out for me. And I have enough other stuff going on that I'm very happy. Yeah, you're very multi-hyphenate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's hard to do. And I think you have to be successful in media today. Absolutely. But also, you have to know you can take it on.

42:26And it's not going to kill you. And I now have two kids. And I understand what my time commitment to everything is. And I'm a highly productive person. And I meet my deadlines. And I know what has to be done. Right. So speaking of that, every episode we get a question from an outside expert here at New York. Hey, Andy Cohen. It's your pal, Rosie O'Donnell. How are you? I miss you. I got a question for you for the Carrer Swisher show. The question is, how has being a father changed your life and career? Expand. Will Ja? I hope to see you soon, Andy. Take care, bye. Thank you, Rosie. I mean, it's changed everything. It's certainly changed. I mean, I have a little bit of an edit button where I say, okay, don't say that you're a dad. Right. But I mean, I was going to say, I mean, the other day they put these like electric panties

43:28on me. And I gave the guest on watch what happens live, the controller every time they didn't want to answer a question. No, but something like that. So I mean, you know, I still push the envelope. But I mean, look, it's made, I think that viewers have noticed on reunion shows that my dad self comes out a lot as I speak to sometimes either the housewives or to people, you know, some of the younger people that are on some of these shows like Summer House or Next Gen NYC. But I would say, I mean, look, it's just made my priorities totally different. And sometimes my agent will call me saying like, I really want you to get this thing or whatever. And I say, I'm good. Like I'm good. I just, I view everything as if I have to leave the city to do something, it's going to be time away from my kids. In the year leading up to having Ben, I said yes to everything.

44:29You know, host the attitude towards in London, I'm going to be the international ambassador for world pride. And Jerusalem, like, yes, yes, I'll do it. I'll do it. And I was like, you are about to be tethered into a different life. And so go do this now. So I do feel like I'm so glad that I got to, you know, just be famous for 10 years before I had kids so that now I can just be famous at home and not have to go to every party and all that stuff. What kind of dad are you? Would you say? I think I'm a, I get myself a really good girl. I'm glad you said that. Thank you. I say that about my time to go to the time. I say, and people like you shouldn't say that. I'm like, why? Exactly. I mean, no, I'm very rural oriented. I'm very schedule oriented. I communicate with my children super clearly. My mom is reactionary, like everything. And I would just push her envelopes together to have a big reaction. So I am prone to a big reaction. But I also, I love deep talks with my kids.

45:32They're seven and four. I have already told Ben I already made a deal with the guy at the bagel store that he's going to work there when he's like 15 or 16. We have the deal. I got him John Mayer tickets because I want him to know like I'm serious about this because it's hard, by the way, when I was young, I had so many jobs growing up. I mean, I want my kids to work. They, you know, my son is really interested in how money works and how does it play in and whatever. And I'm really being very regimented about the tooth fairy and things like that because I'm seeing crazy things happening around him in New York City. Meaning what? Meaning kids that get $20 from the tooth fairy or $10. Yeah. What is your tooth fairy number? $2. That's low. $2 bill. Mine is five. Okay. $2 bill is a special thing. You're right. Very rare. That's a good idea. An envelope. Inflation though. It's interesting. You know, it is interesting. Kids do need that kind of structure, although you have a big life too.

46:34Yes. I think about it a lot. Yes. I think about the monster truck ring with a bunch of kids at the playground right now. They trade monster trucks. I mean, I love that. But that's great. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. I'm like, he can't give it away. I'm like, no, this is good. Yes, exactly. He comes to know it's nice. But also when they want to give something to a friend. Well, it's more of a trade. Something we were at a birthday party yesterday. My son is so funny. And on the way home, he, they've got gift cards. This is my son's seven. She's four. And he said to her, he was trying to trade this really good. Like Lego egg thing that, and she was like, I go Lucy, do not trade that egg. He goes, you know, if you have two of these kush balls, I mean, that's something that's pretty rare. And I was like, oh my god. And he got her to do the trade. Yeah. Yeah. Go for you. Go for you. And he negotiated the deal and believed. Yeah. There's a lot of negotiations. Yes, my boyfriend goes, you know what? You either got it or you don't. That's right. Sales.

47:35Yes. Yes. Raising them in New York. Like you've got an incredibly high profile. You're also very outspoken, even when your opinions are controversial. Celebrities are very careful. It's unusual for people to speak out. And you intentionally bait people like President Trump. It comes down to, as you say in your memoir, which you wrote, the fact you simply cannot shut the fuck up. Yeah, I guess so. But I also, my mom always taught me to stand up for what I believe in. And I, on the radio, I mean, I let it rip on the radio. I really let it rip on the. And on, watch what happens. I mean, I gave Fauci the Mosul of the day, the day that he was being dragged in front of Congress. And he pled to fifth all those times. And man, did it piss people off? And it pissed off a lot of my viewers. And I speak on, watch what happens live when it, look, I'm the only gay host in late night television.

48:35But I, you know, I really want to speak up for this community when I need to, or when I, you know, when I feel like I need to, and I've spoken up about anti-Semitism. And yes, I just, to me, it's a matter of principle. And I'm off my assistant tweets for me because I found Twitter to be just absolutely just soul-crushing. But threats is pretty fun. And I like to, you know, troll what's his name? Matt Schlapp and his wife Mercedes. Did you think about it? Because I'm telling you a lot of some good things. I know. You absolutely know. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah. I mean, being hexeth titles, everything with the title of things that have been used as gay porn titles. I mean, like, I'm like, dude, you, Falcon entertainment should sue you. They're like a leading gay porn producer. Yeah. Yeah. And I use that a lot. This is so much. I'm like, this is dialogue straight out of striker

49:37for a star Jeff Striker. It is a real gay porn advantage. It is. It is. In many ways. I have to say sometimes I'm like, I am too. I'm like, what's happening here? Yeah. But it's good on here. But do you feel like when you think about it, you just do it because you naturally think you can't shut the fuck up. I don't think that's- Well, I think that I look, let me say this. I'm very respectful of the air time and the opportunity that I have on Watch What Up and Slyve to do the show. The industry has changed so much. I'm so grateful that I get to make this show every day. And I have people who have been with me for 17 years who work on Watch What Up and Slyve. And I want all of us to stay employed for as long as we can. So yes, I have very strong beliefs. I know what my show is. And I know what it isn't. And it's not a show about politics. But if I'm all hopped up, then I will come in and say I want to speak to- I want to speak about X, Y, or Z.

50:38And I do it. So I just don't think that I overdo it. Do you think it's important that people like you do that? I think it is more than you think. I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, look. I feel like- A lot of people say, oh, why do people listen to me? I'm like, why not? You're saying it's cute. I mean, look. I'm of Tuma. Every so often, something will backfire and I'll think, you know what? I'm just going to keep my head down and whatever. What's that? And that, I don't know. I don't know. It may be something that I just get overwhelmingly negative response to. But that's the only response I'm looking at. You know, who knows? But then I may just get in my head about something. But no, I think, look, when I do these book tours, and I meet a kid who says I grew up in rural wherever, and you were the only gay person on television, or moms come up to me and say, I used to look at you, and then when you had your kid, I turned to my son and said, you can do it too. So, you know, that means I think visibility

51:38always means something and it's important. And I feel strongly about it. So on that, and then I want to finish talking about the future of reality TV, when you think about being a parent, like a lot of people say gay parents. I'm like, what in the world is a gay parent? Except more fun. Yeah, I was more fun. Absolutely. Fucking more. Better parents. I think the less means you raise everybody, but that's different. The gay men are doing a good job. Lesbians should run the world. I mean, let's be real. That's real. You all keep it together. You have it organized. It is, I mean, my assistant is one of the great lesbians in America, Darren Carp. And I mean, she just gets shit done. I mean, it's like, and you know, there's not much drama. I'm talking about just keep your head down. Make it happen. So to speak. Get out the hammer and the nail. Yeah. Yeah. There's a great online guy who talks about us. Lesbians neighbors. I don't know if you've ever seen him.

52:38He's very funny. They do everything. Yeah. He's like, we have a potluck and it has everything. Yes. No. I mean, I agree. But when you think about it, and more serious thing, I think it's really important to model gay parents who are gay. I don't say gay parenting because I don't think it's different than other parenting. Right. And the things I worry about are my kids. I now I have older kids. They're at the time. Why are you about your kids growing up in the environment? Well, you know, it was interesting because of my older kids. They passed the proposition in California, proposes in eight that tried to end gay marriage when my kids were little and the year Obama won. And my son at the time was eight or nine. He's 25 now. And he said, can we stay a family? I'll never forget it. It was devastating. Are we still a family, which is weird. Now fast forward, since I'm a straight white man now, I have a second set of kids. Right. The same thing is happening with gay and lesbian stuff, which is, yes, it is. I worry again about the same thing. And what's interesting thing, what is interesting is so far,

53:39they're seven and four, they don't know that gay people are discriminated against. That hasn't gotten to them. They grew up with Anderson's kids. Right. Yeah. We had gay parents down the hall from us. There were gay parents in their school. So they don't think it's unusual to have new dads. And they live in New York. Right. And so, but I'm so grateful for it. And I've said to my kids, by the way, does it make you sad that you don't have a mom because they see moms on, you know? And Ben has said, well, if we had a mom, we wouldn't have you, Dan. Right. And you're the best. So I mean, they're, he's so high on my supply that, I mean, that's not literal. But, but, but he's into me. They're both very into me. So they see it in that way. But you worry about the moment now. A more and more, I'm aware of it. Yeah, of course I do. Of course I do. Or are we at the end of this? I don't know where the fuck we are,

54:41but I do worry about it. But what I think you can, the only thing you can do in moments like this, you really just have to focus on your family and your children and looking within and making sure they're great and that you're all there with each other. I mean, because that's something that you can control. And you donate to the States Project, which I'm very, do you know what the States Project? The States Project is amazing organization. For people, there's so much hopelessness in politics and in activism right now. As much as the president has and will and continues to grift and cheat and mess things up, everything happens in the State Houses. The States Project isolates the most key races. And when you give to them, you target a certain state or race. So the States Project is just an amazing organization that you can get involved with and not lose your cool.

55:44Not lose your cool. Yeah, because it feels you never know what's gonna happen. You don't, you don't. All right, I'm gonna finish up, we'll give it a future of reality television. Okay. Two questions. You said the watch what happens live is a short attention span theater. It is. It's made to be a viral show without making it the viral show. Right. It's doing well as late show on CBS and late night viewership is in decline. Yes. Talk about that. And where do you see it going? Well, I'm amazed that I'm not amazed. Where I see it going is that hopefully whoever is president after Trump. Do you have a favorite? And that includes, I mean, I'm loving my man in Georgia right now. But, um, Atlanta, would you say? I call him hotlanta. Hotlanta, yes. But, uh, but that includes, you know, listen, I have to keep hope of, I'm an optimistic person. So I'm gonna say even JD Vance or Marco Rubio, if they were to be president, I'm going to hope

56:46that they're not going to weaponize the FCC against everything and everyone, which is what's happening now. And I'm going to hope that the streamers will start developing some live late night shows that can do things without offending, you know, this man, whoever or woman, whoever it is. And that that late night show, right now, I just think there's the viewership of network television has changed. Absolutely. Um, the way that daily talk shows are streamed has changed because it doesn't really, there is no habit for going on, um, Hulu, yeah, and watching an episode of Jimmy Kimmel from last night, whereas when you watched NBC after the news, you knew that you wanted to watch the tonight show. So hopefully the streamers, which have not been able to develop

57:49and produce a hit talk show, which is kind of incredible. So I am hopeful that there will be once this insanity stops. I mean, it is, wouldn't you think that Netflix would be saying? One would. Let's, one might think that they would say, look, Colbert had three million viewers a night. That's not, you know, that's not nothing like let's, would you want to do something like that? I'm really happy doing what I'm doing. I mean, I have a huge, you're a bit like appointment television, which doesn't exist anymore. Bravo is, and I'm a part of that. And so I'm really happy where I am. I want to keep doing what should up inside for as long as they have me. And then the way I'm exercising my brain on serious oxym is, is really fun. So I'm great. Yeah. And you're putting out books too, like the scrapbook. I love, look, I have an imprinted crown. I published Mariah Carey's book, which was the number one bestseller.

58:53I published a book that's an oral history, the real housewives. It was the number one New York Times bestseller. And this Andy's Bravo scrapbook, it's a coffee table book. It is a great Christmas present. It comes out October 20th. And so I'm hoping this will be my sixth bestseller. A friend of mine who wants to ex-all your housewives. I love that. Thank you. Which they love it. So, but yeah, I mean, I look, I believe in doing as much as you can because anything can go away. And so only do what you can control anything to go away. Not really. What drives me is being happy in what I'm doing. And I wouldn't say yes to something unless it was going to make me happy. So people offer me things all the time and I say, that's not going to add. That's not additive to my life. I just finished our Emmanuel's book. It's about loss. Everything drives him is loss and desperation. What drives me is kind of, is it organic? Does it fit with me? Will it fit with my life? Will it make me happy? You know, and I mean, the most important thing is my kit.

59:55Can I do, you know, can I still take my kids to school? Every day, you know, right in New York. Is there anything you've done that you want to do? Would you like to run for office or? No, I mean, no, I'm good. Nothing. Nothing you'd like to make that you see. And you're like, not really, not really. Is that bad? No, it's not bad. Yeah. Why is it? I want to keep writing books. And, you know, maybe someday I'll like teach a course and media. A professor. Yeah, that would be fun. Why not? Is that funny? Carousel. Yes. It's funny. It's a funny. It's like always a professor. How about a car is very low? Well, all right. Well, I think that I would be high on that bar. Yes. Harvard. I would be a great professor. You kidding me? Yes. What? School of hard knocks. What? Yes. Yes. Harvard. What's the best communication school in the Tish and why you Tish? Yes. You would be. Okay. They would be lucky to have.

1:00:55Lucky to have you. Yes, they would. I would agree with you. You're not. You're voting me. No, I'm not. No, because my motto is you're lucky to have me wherever I go. Yes. Well, are you kidding me? Years ago when I was working someone said they were lucky to be here. And I said you're lucky to have me. That's funny. See, I mean, not many people can get away with saying that. And I. I bet you could. It's not the best look for a man to say that. It's okay. You're like a woman saying that is like, you go girl. And a man saying that is, wow, you are a douchebag. No, you are not a douchebag whatsoever. Anyway, that's why I'm not going to say that. All right. Fine. You just did a second ago. Anyway, I appreciate it. My presence is my present. You be. Can I say that? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I like that. You can say it's my friend. Nice. Yeah. I'm going to steal that one. It's the same. It's kind of the same thing. Anyway, Annie, thank you. It's got this bravo scrapbook out. I really, I think what you make is wonderful. Thank you. And I'm so glad I stalked you. Thank you. I'm so glad I. Anytime. Yes. You know, listen, when Anderson texts, and I was like, I got Anderson to do it.

1:01:56Oh my god. Wow. Yeah. I mean, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Today's show was produced by Vicki Vera Golina, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Milstop, Olivia Briley, Megan Bernie, and Madeline LaPlanche Dubie. Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer and podcast. Special thanks to Lisa Soap, Rose Marie Ho, Jim McEl and Manolo Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Riquan, and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following the show, you're welcome in the Bravo Clubhouse. If not, I might have to flip a dinner table at you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Carousel's and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Carousel's for From Potion Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. When Fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's Fall Drop

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