also...Lauren Napolitano

0:00Right now at Subway, try the $4.99 sub of the day. Get a different 6-inch sub every day for just $4.99 each, like Meatball Marinera on Mondays, tuna on Tuesdays, and the BMT on Saturdays. It's a different 6-inch sub every day, packed with protein and your choice of chopped veggies for just $4.99 each. Or make it a meal with chips and a drink for just $2 more. But hurry, it's only for a limited time, and only at Subway. At participating restaurants, prices higher in Washington, Alaska, and Hawaii, and on third-party delivery, add-ons, taxes, and fees for delivery additional. So first, let's dig it a lot. Oh, no, no, no. True. You'll never guess. So sidebar. Yes. And also, I feel like I shouldn't have to remember everything. I know. Actually, I've talked about this. Three, two, one. Hi, everyone. Hey, I'm Lisa, and I'm Meredith. And this is also podcasts, and today we have a very special guest. But before we introduce them, check us out on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, especially if you want to see us in full video, and Patreon.

1:00All the links are in our description, and please be sure to rate, review, and subscribe. Okay. Meredith, intro our guest. We have a very special guest today. With us, we have Lauren Napolitano. She is a licensed psychologist, identifying examples of domestic violence in our subsistence abuse, on reality TV to teach women how they get trapped in these relationships, and why they may be conflicted in ending even the most abusive relationships. Welcome to the podcast, Lauren. Thanks. I'm so happy to be here. We are so happy to have you and to learn so much from everything that you have, especially in the psychology front. But before we get into that amazing knowledge, I do want to ask, what was your first reality TV show that you ever found yourself turning on? Oh, well, I'm going to age myself because I'm Gen X, but it was definitely real world on MTV. That's how I got started. You're all good. Right. It was shocking when it came out at the time because it really broke new ground in terms of like, wow, those people are having a conversation. But there's a camera crew.

2:02Just even the concept of camera crews following regular people was so mind blowing. Were you there for the first season live, or did you catch on later? No, I think I was. Like, okay. The beginning. Yeah, but it was just like everyone's heads were exploding. Like real people are on TV and were like, yeah, if it did, like it was so like unscripted. It's just fascinating. That would never meet before and other folks forced to like live together. It was crazy. It was, honestly, it was a crazy concept. I'd like to support men, complete strangers to live together. But especially pre-influencer culture, because like, what were they getting out of it? I mean, true. You know what I mean? And they were forced to work. They had to like get jobs and get like get paid minimum wage a lot of time. Right. So really like nothing. And later they weren't even like real jobs. It was like we're putting together a like film festival, like shortcut. Like they lost it. They lost it at the end there. But the early seasons of the real world were truly incredible.

3:05Amazing. I'm so impressed you saw that Alicia. Oh, I spent a lot of boots on the ground. But he just bought a lot of time without parental controls growing up. And MTV loves a rerun. So that's true. True. True. And we thought, how did you find your way into Bravo? Oh, Bravo just finds you, right? I don't know. I just remember seeing like the first season of OC with like Vicki Gunnvilleson and like it just with that madness. And I was just hooked for life. Yeah. Another groundbreaking like reality TV show that really, it's crazy to think about the road we've come on reality TV with real world and some of those MTV shows into the house wives and the cultural impact that they've really had on people. Oh, totally. Especially the OC. I mean, that was a, especially because they were so rich at the time, comparative to everyone else. And they were just acting unlike adults. It was so confusing to watch, which I'm sure there's a lot of psychology behind that.

4:09That we dive into. But yeah, I watched it for the chaos to be quite honest. This is a game. Totally, totally. Yeah, I agree. It's also interesting because obviously the like 2008 financial crisis happened right around how so I've started. So this opulence is something really long towards. And I feel like we're kind of in that genre now where there's obviously a lot of financial hard times and watching people in such luxury can sometimes be deemed as something exciting and comforting, but then sometimes can be the like let them eat cake, frustrating part of life. So I feel like we constantly bobble between it being an aspirational life and then something that we're frustrated to see at the same time. And also I find something really fascinating about watching women, not all of them, but like many of them who are just so tone deaf about the plight of the world. And they're like, look at my 7,000 square foot fridge. And you're like, do you know what's happening? Some people can't afford groceries. Yeah. But like you think that this is like something to like show off and to brag about.

5:12And it's like, wow, you are so out of touch. Yeah. And then you're like, well, come on. This is it. We're seeing that on real houses of New York, Erin, Chi, Chi, at our house flooded, which is a very normal thing to go through. But when it's your second home, people really don't feel the pain or feeling when other people are not afford groceries. Right. Right. Totally. And we're kind of in that tone deaf era where it's a difficult balance, too, of we look for this entertainment and these women and this opulence is fun and exciting. But at the same time, how can you be respectful of what other people are going through without honing in on minute things that while maybe big things to you are very small in comparison. Right. Right. Yeah. So we really want to get to your knowledge on all the chaos that happens on reality TV.

6:15And when Alicia and I were talking about having you on, we really bucketed the chaotic people we see on our reality TV screens, especially men, did two buckets, some toxicity that we see up front versus the toxicity we excuse. And also maybe may not notice even until way later or until a big incident happens. So if you're okay, I'd love to start with the toxicity we see the three people we really pointed out were Jack's Taylor, Brian from Real Housewives of Rhode Island and Danny from the Valley. So first up with Jack's, you kind of brought to our table of, you know, the circular experience of Jack's in Brittany and why he won't stop harassing her. So what is that kind of cycle that they kind of constantly go through from her appearing on Vinter pump rules and those early seasons to their him cheating on her into even in the Valley with the physical abuse and his addiction kind of being played out.

7:18Well, first I want to say I think Jack's is a horribly abusive man, but I do think selfishly he's an excellent teaching tool because we have so many years of footage of him. So for me, I think like every young narcissist coming up, a lot Charlie's the core. Right. People are like, oh, he's so great. He's so wonderful. And it's like, he's just going to get worse. Right. Yeah. Like Taylor, we have what 15 years of footage of him. I mean, at least 10 years, right? Yes. I'm like him just getting not changing or getting worse. Like these people do not change. So like I do appreciate the importance of Jack's Taylor and the Browsevere as a teaching tool of like these people don't change. Like Brian is not going to change. Danny's going to change. And so that said, that said, like the cycle of narcissists to computers is always the same. And we see it across all of the franchises, but it starts out like love bombing, you know, you're the best. You complete me. I remember Sandivall saying about Ariana, like I have electric happiness when I'm with her.

8:18You know, like it's this over the top fireworks kind of thing. And then just kind of starts to slide into like disrespect cheating and then hoovering, like sucking you back in. And so when the person finally breaks free, I was so happy when Brittany finally like booted him out. I would be hearing in my living room. But that's when most narcissists engage in post separation abuse. Like they ramp up even higher. Like they escalate in terms of, I mean, Jack's has just been relentless in terms of like harassing her cyber stalking her, getting into all of her like electric accounts, stealing her best friend and dating her. I mean, like he just will not stop terrorizing her. It seems like that's very ill find any. Bass it to like you said the electronics and working with her PR person and dating her, putting out all stories about her and like hitting her on all fronts, especially post separation. Right.

9:19Meanwhile, he also stiffed her with like a million dollars worth of tax debt. I mean, the financial abuse alone is disgusting. And it's really sad to see that like, it's just so much. She just wants to like take that financial burden in order to like get rid of him too. Like what people will take just to like cut someone else out of their life as much as possible. Right. And okay, so Brittany is obviously the victim in all of this. And I, is there something like because we have footage of Jack's as you said, right? Like he dated Stasi for a long time. And I guess my question's two parts. Is there a reason he like, doesn't do the same abusive or like the total abusive cycle to Stasi and kind of let her go versus Brittany he can't let go of. And then also, is there like some sort of trait or like was Brittany just enamored with Jack's at the beginning and like didn't see previous stuff or did he just get worse over

10:23time? If that makes sense. That is a really, that is a really good question. It's heavy. Stasi got away. But I, I, I don't remember that quite as clearly because it's like, it's okay. It was a long time. But also be, I think Jack's was in part younger and didn't have a child with her. And so he's options in terms of other women he could terrorize were much greater. Right. Like his reputation had not proceeded at that point. And he didn't have a child with her. So there was no, they weren't bounty there. Yeah, there was no glue. And in terms of Brittany or anyone who's been like narcissistically abused, usually the primary characteristic is that the person is compassionate. Okay. Over there. Like because Jack's Taylor for all of his bullshit is a great liar. And so he is so capable, especially through Vanderpump of falling on the sword and pretending that they're always. But that he's about to change or that he's finally gotten it and he's never going to do it again. And in those moments, those people are very believable.

11:24I mean, yeah, like for the audience, we see it. It's like this is time number 4,000 50 where he has said this. But I think as Brittany was coming up with him, I think you have this person saying I'm about to change. I've had trauma like stick with me and Brittany's a tremendously compassionate person. I just get pulled at her heartstrings. Until she had had enough. Yeah. She raged that limit. That's also really interesting to think about like Jack's Taylor getting worse over time. And do you see that, you know, narcissists off of screen get worse over time as well? And then how does the effect of reality TV only amplify that in how bad some of these narcissists on TV can become? See, I don't necessarily think that Jack's or any narcissist gets worse over time. It's just that people, their reputations catch up with them. Okay. So like we learn more about it. Yeah, like the more we see that Jack's has cheated on every woman and lied to every person,

12:25even his best friends like patients wears thin, right? And his big gambles financially wear that you like crumble more and more each time. So like their reputation just becomes this big pile of baggage that follows them from room to room. And they're the same. It's just they're not as young and nimble as and charming as they once were. Yeah. You also think like as time goes on, like I'm just thinking of Charlie Sikor, right? Like he's he's just starting out a lot of people do think he's charming or he's just like funny on reality TV. And that's probably I think I don't remember because it was 400 years ago how Jack started. Yeah. But do you think the mask also kind of falls like they've received this love? And so they're like maybe less careful. Are they not thinking about that? They're just kind of like this is me. I think they're thinking about that. Interesting. Okay. I think again, the beauty of Jack's like and again, I think Jack's like I could teach an entire under course. You asked about Jack's because he's so well documented.

13:25Yeah. He's so cartoonish, right? But like I think he's always been the same from the beginning. It's just like over time. People are like, oh, here we go again. We pick up the patterns of it. It's not a one off like I made a mistake. It's a cycle. Right. Like even his fiercest defenders like was it Tom Schwartz was like, I'm really bummed out that he attacked my girlfriend. And it's like, well, no kidding. Yeah. Side swiped her girlfriend. Hello. It's everybody. So we see often like you said, the compassion is what often keeps a victim in there because they want and see potential with someone. So how do we see that with Rula? We see our lot sticking up for Brian on Real Hospice of Rhode Island and kind of what that cycle looks like when they're public facing and really stick up for them not only on a show, but in on social media. We're seeing that a lot with Rula and the mistress and her putting down the mistress while praising

14:26Brian. Is that a typical cycle where the victim really tries to uphold the image of this narcissism and kind of what does that look like from the work of the victim, unfortunately? Rula, she just breaks my heart. Like she like again, if we talk about like narcissists degrees, it's like love bombing and then devaluation and then discard and discard is cheating. But the last stage, like the stickiest stage is where they keep pulling you back like, no, I'm about to change my bad. And Rula is so stuck in that because you can see her ambivalence like some scenes. She's like, oh, you know, F him and his brother and I deserve better. And then she'll show up to a reunion or watch what happens live and it's just like, this is my man, you know? And so you can see that she's just kind of one foot in and then gets pulled out. You know, I mean, like she's very stuck. But I also think like I tend to think like the fact that she reported him for having a tracking device in her car and that he was recording her in the house, I tend to think

15:28that he's blackmailing her. That's just a theory. Oh, okay. And so like I just wonder like if part of her wants to leave, but she's just like, oh, again, post separation abuse is really severe in most cases. I just imagine that he is threatening her in some way. But yeah, because even leaving him when it stops those threats, if he does have things over her, right? Okay, that's interesting because as someone that does not have a degree in any of this, watching Rula throughout the season, she was very flip floppity. Like sometimes she was like, Joellen, please get me proof. And then when the proof came, she was very upset by it. And then I couldn't understand her at the reunion being mad. But I guess, yeah, if he keeps pulling her in or if he has something on her, she might be just scared of the abuse that he can, can give. And maybe she's in like a very sad way, seen it and knows what he's capable of. Well, the weirdest thing with Rula too is that I made a post about her early in the season, saying like, I think she's being blackmailed.

16:29I think this is going on. And she reposted it really. I like, I sent her a private DM saying, Hey, you reposted this thing where I said, like, I think you're a victim of DV. Like, are you okay? You know, I was truly trying to be like kind of. Yeah. And she never responded. And truthfully, I totally forgot about it. And then like several weeks later, I made a post saying, yeah, Rula reposted this thing. Yeah, I said she's being blackmailed. And she lost her mind and like came for me and said, I'm lying and whatever. And meanwhile, it was on her page. But again, like, I just think there's such like there are moments where she's like, yeah, I'm in a dark relationship on I need help. And then there are other moments where it's like, I'm in the best relationship ever. And who are you clowns trying to help me? You know, I mean, like, the ambivalence is so black, you know, like it just swings, swings, swings. Yeah, if he's pulling her in and stuff. Yeah. Because it seems also he's like heavily lying to her. I think we saw that a lot at the reunion where like she's being fed this one version.

17:31And the other ladies have more facts and truth than Rula does. And so that's really hard to know who's telling you the truth to, especially when you don't have that trust with the other women in you. Anyways, feel like they're trying to tear you down in your relationship, whether he's doing wrong or not. It's like, who do you believe in that situation? Like no one's truly on your side. Right. Right. Yeah. Can I also ask just because I know this is a pattern, right? But does it stem like when Rula taxed the mistress or tax like even you for saying something or Joe Ellen? Is it just that she doesn't want to believe it or almost like she knows what's happening, but she doesn't want to bring attention to it in fear of what Brian will do or maybe like a mix of both. That's a good question. I would guess it's a mixture of both. Okay. I think she know. I think her ambivalence comes from the fact that she knows that I think, you know, there's trouble in paradise, but I also think like you know, when you're married to someone who's really abusive, I think you really dread having to leave them, which sounds weird, but it's like you know

18:34the person is going to lose their mind. Yeah. You know, you know that they are not going to fight fair and they are going to file for sole custody and try to take all your money. And so you're just sort of like this can't be happening. This can't be my reality. Yeah. It's a nice, like avoidance because of like what is to come after where it's like the W no versus the W don't. You know what he's like in a relationship, but leaving him is a whole unknown. Right. Well, there are also some people that we missed early on. We are currently in a rewatch of season six of Interpunk rules. And we're really noticing a lot of patterns between seeing the vault and Ariana from season six to season 10 and how they talk about their intimacy, how he talks about if she is covered up whenever they're having sex. Like you said, the love bombing, there's a lot of signs that kind of we are now noticing now that we know the end result. And it was way more clear to us in season 10 with what their relationship was.

19:37So how as women do we identify as early as possible, some of the signs in the season six version rather than just waiting till the season 10. Gosh, that's a good question. I think the thing that to look out for, which is nearly impossible to look out for, is the love bombing, right? Because the love bombing is so intoxicating and so great. But I think for a lot of women, like let's be honest, the dating scene sucks. And so you go beyond hinge for months, years, whatever. And so when you finally meet someone that's into you and like is appreciative, you're like, yes, like let's delete this app and go for it. But meanwhile, they're secretly love bombing you and kind of the love, the love bombing case really is this like a, it's a con. Like they're learning everything about you to use it against you at some later point. So they're studying you very carefully. So they know how to hurt you. But they're very, very attentive. So it feels, you know, so nourishing and lovely. It's just, yeah, it probably if it's too good to be true, it is actually too good to be true.

20:41Yeah. It's also interesting with sand of all, right? Because we could kind of compare him to Jackson away of like they were on the same show. And they both were toxic men. But Jackson was, you know, I wouldn't even say we saw him really love bomb, but he just somehow like pulled these women in and then cannot let them go. Where a sand ball, we did see him love bomb a lot. Like he loved Ariana at the beginning. And then he doesn't hang out with her, which is a problem for their intimacy. And he blames her for a lot of things. Like how are we supposed to be intimate if you wear shirt during sex and things like that? So I guess like, are they is one more dangerous than the other? Are they both just like awful men we have to look out for? You're saying about Jack's versus Jack's versus sand ball? Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. You know, I get out sometimes in my head, I'll make this is so. I'll make brackets of like really toxic Bravo men. And I'm like, who would I rather be with?

21:42Like what I love that like you know, like F. Yeah, like, yeah, I had to be with like West or Jack's or sand ball, but like it's dark. But like honestly, the thing I always come down to is like, I would rather be with Jack's because you would wake you up so fast. Whereas these other ones are like these slow growing mold. Yeah. That like takes years and years to like the road yourself is demon. You're not really sure what's happening and then all of a sudden there's all these problems. But like with Jack's is just sort of like like a nuclear. Yeah. Yeah. You're living or like I just hate you all of a sudden. Yeah. Right. Like his behavior is so egregious that I. It's interesting. You brought up West because I feel like West where Jack's is the bomb that goes off. SantaVall is the slow build. West is like a yo yo up and down of whether he like hates you or loves you. Yes.

22:42And you're getting like whiplash every six months. Both in front of the camera and not in front of the camera. I feel like he's not even the same every day of the week. And so it's like, what version are you going to get of him? And that I think would be the darkest for your psyche. Because you would just feel like what did I do wrong? Did I just? True. He's nice to me today, but I what did I do? Or is least Jack's like you could just write him off like, oh, he's a scumbag. He's not just whatever. Yeah. West, it's like hot cold cold cold cold hot. You know, like that is far darker. I think to navigate. Oh, yeah, worries me because I had such a crush on West. He is such my tie. Oh, no, no, he had no super charming. Definitely. I guess like where did it? Did we see it go wrong or did something in him snap? Like I still kind of get tripped up on the west of it all because I'm like, we saw it with see it right. Like he all of a sudden got back with Sierra and then started dating Amanda and that's wrong. But like, where where did it go wrong with him?

23:46You know what I mean? Like I feel we a bunch of us got lost and I'm one of those people that was just like whiplash around to all of a sudden we have a new enemy and like, I get why but I don't know how we got here. Yeah. Was there something we missed? I think. I love us and that I think he's very clever. I think he's very bright. I think he's very clever. I think he had it, you know, especially a lot of his like woke politics and he was like you, John got me. Game going like a long game of conning like a whole nation of women. Like he really played played it well. So no, I didn't see anything. Like, we really intellectualized him in the fact that at the first go around with Sierra, like he really went wrong in the media. And so it's like, oh, you just mean mistakes in the media. And so like you've learned from that. You can be different. But we don't see what happens off camera. And so learning more and more the last year or year and a half about that first fall after they wrapped his first season.

24:47And the fact that he really was not there for her and when it came to her and like some of those nuance conversations, I also think takes us by surprise because he's really good at. I think Lindsey said it. Like showing up and being a person on camera and being a character. So it's a lot easier. I think to hold your mask when that cast is only filming every weekend. I think a lot easier to uphold it for 48 hours versus a Vinter pump rules is filming basically almost every day. Right. Right. Or like a real housewives cast trip where they're like, oh, 237. In Italy for 10 days or something. Yeah. I don't know. I think there's just an interesting like idea of like Jackson, for example, he's just a bad person. Yeah. But like, West, I thought it first in his first season. He was just, he was a good person who like did a bad thing. But then at what point do we say, okay, you're not learning from the bad things you do? You just keep doing bad things.

25:49Yeah. Maybe you're a bad person. Right. I mean. And I think that's why I get you now where you're like, I would rather just have Jack's we know he's a bad person. Well, 1000 percent, I think you get out much cleaner like psychologically, concerto like size him up and be like, okay, he was the problem worth like Meredith to your point. Like if you're with West, you're just like, am I losing my mind? Right? Am I like not a good, you know what I mean? Like I think you just questioned the ground to stand on. So and it's interesting with him now paired with Amanda who really seeks her validation in having a partner after having a 10 year marriage with Kyle, especially a public relationship. What do you think is going to kind of be this relationship as we see it come into the fall here into the winter? Like I've heard they're going to be on in this city and what will that really just kind of look like? I don't know, but I don't know if any of us are prepared to find out. Right? What do you think of them? I guess. I just feel like, you know, you know,

26:50the is a TikTok sociologist tell the bees. Oh, yes. Josh Laura, he always talks about he has this series called American Cheating. And he does love it. I am on the edge of my seat every video. He talks about how like the only way to justify cheating is if you stay together. Like if you stay together, then it's no longer cheating. And I kind of feel like they're kind of stuck like, well, we didn't do a bad thing if we stay together. And so they're kind of like stuck together. But I don't know where they take it beyond having to be stuck. Interesting. Yeah. It like legitimizes the relationship. It's kind of like a bachelor relationship. If you like engage on TV, but you're together for three years, it's real now. So yeah, I wonder if like I always feel like they have to be together for a year to make it like legit. Yeah. You're probably a few seasons of something. And then they can quietly disappear. Yes. But they are very forward that anytime there are breakup rumors, they immediately put out an Instagram post to like prove that they're still together.

27:51I don't know. We always say that too. We're like, we say it less classy than they do on TikTok over there. But we say like if you're going to cheat, you better make it worth it then. You better stick to it. You better stick together. And then we won't be so mad at you. But it doesn't, it never really has gone that way much. But maybe this is the one more cheating relationships than I have in this one. Like Ariana and Santa Valk got a lot of flack for like cheating. And it was like, you guess who love bombing, but they were very into each other. And they were together for like eight years. This one, I don't believe it going into it more. And so it is interesting. The versions of cheating that we kind of have seen with like the scan of all. We didn't really believe in that relationship either. And I mean, in West, we don't believe in it. But when it comes to, you know, Ariana and Santa Valk, it made more sense. So I'm sure there are a million other cheating scandals that made more sense to us. So we said, all right, fine. Like we're willing to write that off.

28:51And like you guys are going to be together fine. But I don't think anybody co-signs this relationship. No, not at all. Not after he didn't help her at that reunion. Oh, you just sat there like. And at the zone form of abuse, she's getting yelled at. And he's like, well, I'll just sit here on my beta block. Sideway totally. That's your F1. So when it comes to characters like this, where we have the up and coming narcissist, like Charlie and then only to the extreme with, you know, Jack Taylor, who we've seen years and years, when do you say is like too far to like keep them on TV? When are they doing more damage than us learning from them? See, I think I have like a cynical take on it. Like I don't think any of those people, well, Jack should be de-platformed only because he is a kid. I think when there's a kid involved to me, it's like, oh, God. Like the fact that there's legal issues and abuse and, you know, throwing tables and whatever. Like that's just like you can't have co-parents.

29:54War, you know, like like Brittany and the physical altercation. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's just, it's too dark. That's a bridge too far. But like the Charlie's Accord, I don't think he should be de-platformed. Like any of those people, I don't think that they should because wherever you live, those people exist. Like they are on TV because not because they're anomalies, but because they are representative of a lot of the men in the world who are entitled and abusive and narcissistic. I mean, we look at the Cornell 7, like we can look at the Epstein files, like abusive men are everywhere. So why would we de-platform them on Bravo? Do you think in any way it may be, and this could be incredibly cynical too, but like helps? Because I like write most of the time I'm like, before I got into reality TV, like men are just men, it's fine. What are narcissists? But now watching Bravo, I could be like, oh, I see patterns that I've seen on TV before in the real world. So do you think there's like some way it's kind of helping? I think it's helpful.

30:54Okay. I think to an extent, I feel, no, sometimes I feel guilt for the people enduring the abuse on the channels. You know, like I'm just like, oh, like I know Ariana Breermann's going to come out ahead with having gone through this with Charlie, but I'm like, oh, I don't really want to watch her get used. Yeah. Especially with everything else she's got going on in her life. Like she's, she's maxed out, understand? Yeah. But yeah, so like I worry about the people enduring some of the abuse, but at the same time, I do agree, like it is a good teaching tool, because I think the purpose of reality TV in a lot of ways, because it is largely women. Oh, yes. Anyways, like we are watching these protagonist women get to be, well, kind of gets seduced by the Jacks tailors, the whomever. I also have a beef with Kenny on in the city. I think he's super narcissistic and abusive. Don't. Laurie talked dirty to me. Oh, I got nothing nice to say. I was number one. I hate her. Get lost. You're a second place to be.

31:55Oh, I thought you were going to say you were his own. I could hate one man I'm bravo with the rest of my fucking life. It's that guy. We got to talk about him because oh, my God. Right, but he is very much in the love bombing phase where you can see how it means very much sucked in and excited and sort of like writing off a lot of his rage moments and selfishness because it's like 85% wonderful. And it's 15% like blinking red flag, but it's 85% cash and trips and you know, yeah. I think like the purpose of reality shows is watching these protagonists like Brittany, Whitney whomever kind of gets sucked into these traps, right? There's like narcissistic traps. Then you watch them like slowly wake up and then they exit us from it and it's like, you know, yeah, this triumphant. Yeah, you see the full cycle and having that cycle, they also get to leave is so helpful. Yes, or like Ariana leaving sand of all. And like, you know, thriving.

32:56She got the Ariana treatment, which is what Amanda was on part of getting to the west of it all. So oh, we got to talk about Kenny. I have to say, I think I'm getting better than like finding these toxic men because I plucked Kenny from day one. I told Meredith, I hate this guy. Immediately hated. I have the pleasure of telling Alicia that they got engaged and I really enjoyed breaking that news to her because the text I received her incredible. And I asked her, which marriage and wedding would you rather see over the other Jackson, Brittany or Whitney and Kenny? Oh, good question. I don't even know if I'm saying I said Jackson, Brittany. Yeah, there's something really, I think again, maybe I'm just, maybe I'm learning more than I thought, but there's something so dangerous about Kenny to me. Me too. That like Jack, Jack's to me, I know he's dangerous obviously to Brittany and the people he dates, but as someone to step away, Jack's is a child to me.

33:58Like I could destroy him with like a good kick in the butt. I have a question. Is it because Kenny is so personally, professionally, financially successful? Like he has this extra edge that Jack's Taylor never had? Yeah, I think Kenny's smart. I mean, if he could go toe to toe with Lindsey Hubbard, he's got, he's got a little brains on him. He has success. He's one people over. I think people are more likely to stand up for him. Like Kyle, whereas like with Jack's, you just had Tom Schwartz, which like another child who cares. But like reputable people stand with Kenny and that, and he's scary. Am I always full or angry with me? No, no, I'm like backing you a thousand percent. No, I think he's really malevolent and very bright and successful. And I just see him creating some kind of prenup that leaves her like, owing him money and her being like, oh, no. You know what I mean? Like I just don't think he has like a altruistic bone in his body. Yeah, like Jack Taylor didn't know enough to be as dangerous as Kenny.

35:01He's an idiot. He's an idiot. I fixed who I never had any assets either. Like, you know what I mean? No, that's one of my weirdly favorite things about rewatching Vinterpump rules is like how poor they were in a fabulous way. Like they were just normal people. So I feel for Whitney in the Kenny situation, right? But at the same time, she like really frustrates me. So I guess like, do I just need to go at this with more kindness? Or is there a point where like, and that's on me? But is there a point where I have to be like Whitney? Because sometimes I tell Meredith like, I cannot help these people if they don't want to help themselves, you know, like it just gets frustrating to watch. Like, I guess what can I do to be more kind to Whitney? Epithetic. I know. Epithetic when I watch. Is there something I should practice? No, I think that's a great question. I want you to answer that for like in real life too, because I'm sure people deal with this and with people in their own life. And on reality TV. Alicia, that is such a good question because I will say like,

36:02I have tremendous empathy for Whitney and I also did want to climb through the TV and just like scream like kidnapper. What are you waiting for? You know what, the way that he spoke to other women, like the harshness and the abusive way that he spoke to all the women at various points, I was like, you are next Whitney. Like if he can talk to Lindsay and I forget all their names now right now, like you've gone, etc. Like Regina, he spoke to them with such venom. Like you think he's going to be nice to you? It's like early on. Like not like late whenever they had to eat. It's like immediately. Right away. Episode two. Yeah, in a tone that like none of us would use. No. For like, you know, like, you know, your friend's wife who you barely know. But like, right for the jugular from the jump. So you just know that that's how he fights. And obviously that's how he's going to cheer. But when I think of Whitney, because she's probably like my primo example right now, of someone who's like very much in the early love bot. Like she's so being loved bomb and now she's got the ring and whatever.

37:05But it's like, I just think like, give her a couple of years. You know what I mean? Like we all thought Brittany wouldn't leave. Like Brittany was the chantose down with Jax for the longest time. But like even Brittany, who I think is just an incredibly compassionate person, at some point was like, enough. Yeah. I was kind of figure like, Whitney will get there too. I just worry about what she's going to endure between now and then. I know. I think that's a good thing for us to think about is, like saying like when you leave him, we will be here to support you. Yes. Because I wonder also if someone like Whitney, who isn't making as much money as Kenny, also has the financial component of like, if I start a life over in an expensive city, like New York City, like that's really hard in a big change of life. Not only dealing with the outcomes and the kind of like post separation abuse, I can come with a partner like that, but just the financial burden of breaking up too. It's like, okay, you're an influencer. You can get the Ariana treatment. Like people will support you.

38:05Brandeis will come. Like people love the, I left him version of these women on Bravo. And so like that, that cushion is there. The audience is there and ready to support you whenever you're ready to leave this. That is a good point. But it is scary. She moved right into his apartment, even though he didn't want her to, and he braided me every step of that way. Sorry, I need to call him. No, no, no, I can't. I can't get it. I can rip on Kenny. We were really disappointed to hear that. She apparently was going to move in with Rachel Lindsay. And like, had plans. And then chose to be with Kenny. Like we were very frustrated to hear that. Because I guess Rachel Lindsay told that story on her podcast. So I think it's frustrating to watch decisions be made and know like, you could be in a safer place. You could be in a better spot. You could be more self-sufficient or like independent of this really toxic. Like me and a maybe see the cycles once you're really in the city with him too. But by the time she got on the plane, she was done for you know,

39:07I mean like she was moving out there for him. Yeah. She was in the spider web like the web was closing in around her, you know. Yeah. That's right Kenny. I'm going to stay on your net. Totally. Okay, I have one last example I want to talk about. You mentioned Ariana Beerman and everything going on with her family. Oh gosh. I feel like Kroy and Kim are an example within themselves of a very, you know toxic relationship, but they're raising the next generation and also raising a very toxic individual that is causing a lot of harm. And what does that cycle kind of look like when you are having children involved? I'm very curious what your take is on them raising KJ and somebody who has, you know, allegedly assaulted somebody. I just worry for those kids because the truth of the matter is that like if you watch Don't Be Tarty, right? Like, yeah, already Kim and Kroy had this very like everything's fun in games. Nothing serious like, haha, just spend more money kind of life as a party attitude, which like, I think that does work when you're when you have like two-year-olds.

40:11It's like, oh, we'll get a moon bounce and that solves everything, right? And they couldn't really discipline or control the kids even when they were filming. And then, you know, like I know Kroy identifies as a DA survivor on his Instagram. Interesting. He's like, spoken out about his own ex-past domestic abuse from Kim. Right, feeling like she was narcissistically abusive. Which I support because I think I think he was very, very passive, but I do think she is narcissistically abusive. Like, I think she was never going to listen to him and did what she wanted and made white black. I mean, you see that even with Ariana, like Kim drinks hundreds of dollars bottles of wine while like not being able to pay her bills in Ariana has supplement. Right. No, I think Kim is the really toxic one, but I think Kroy enabled and like sort of looked the other way to keep her happy and sort of allowed really dark things to happen. But the biggest concern I have now is that like, they obviously had a very

41:11tenuous marriage largely built on spending and then when the money ran out, everything's over. But now they're so fractured. Right. In terms of like, I think, well, who is it? Like Kim's boyfriend is telling Kroy not to be with the kids and there's like all these legal things between the past two years of their separation before the KJ stuff has been so chaotic. Right. So that's what I'm saying. Like they can't even, and I think co-parenting is hard under any circumstances. But like they were really at the extreme level of not being able to cooperate on anything. And then you have a kid with like really severe aggression and mental health issues and impulsivity. And that would take like a very unified front, parental to manage. And given that neither of them really have that kind of relationship, I just worry about like how who was going to stay on top of this kid. Yeah. And the sake of the other kids. Like we've seen reports come out that the prosecutor in the case, you know, brought to light that

42:16KJ had another incident prior with a family member that was underage. And kind of like what does that look like? Now obviously like familial dynamics of toxicity going from parent to child but not child to child and like not protecting the other kids in the like in that experience. Right. And Kim Zolciak again, like it's interesting. I just made a post today. I think about Theresa Judi's like Theresa Judi's Kim Zolciak, Purse, whomever. Like all of these housewives are magnetic to watch because they're so electric and charismatic. And I would say tone deaf like about a lot of things. Yeah. And so that's why we watch them. But I do worry that like the thing that makes them great on TV is that they're tone deaf, right? Like that's what makes Lueh and the air election. Yeah, barrel into a room and sing. It's not going to sit there and say, I do love Lueh and Lueh and it's so great. But like it's this arrogance. I always want it. I'm

43:16always the you know the straw that stirs the drink. Yeah. I think that is that odds with parenting. It's interesting. Like emotional attunement and really putting yourself second to your kids. And so I do think a lot of these housewives are at real disadvantage in the case, not that this would happen to all of them. But in the case that their kid has significant mental health issues, not that they're causing it. But if you genetically have a kid who is fragile psychologically, I think the housewives are not psychologically attuned to meet those needs. Especially if a housewife is joining when their child's younger because their emotional needs are so much less as a young child, but as they become teenagers, your emotional needs grow so much. Right. That like not only are they really busy, but they're such the star of their show that they don't have that capacity. As you mentioned, to really be attuned to their child and what their needs are. And so that can really go haywire. Yeah. I'd be curious to know, and this

44:18is like impossible to know, but the housewives who joined, I think kind of early on in some of those seasons, we had older kids. And so do those kids feel better off? And are those relationships between the parents and children better off because the housewives joined when they were older and kind of had gone through a lot of their growing years and learning years versus the housewives, whose kids do start out really young. Trisha, do you know, I see being one of them? Like her kids were so young and have been on TV with her youngest being on TV her entire life. Yeah. Right. Oh, that's interesting. I also think it maybe just depends on like the housewife. Like, yeah, I also think, for example, like a Caroline Manzo for sticking kind of in Jersey, right? She's not super, she's a little tone deaf, but not as much as like Trisha, Junai's, Melissa, Morgan, types, right? And her kids were older, but I also think like Caroline might not have put her kids on TV until they were older because she might recognize like,

45:19my kids don't need that or even Dina who is like, I'm leaving for my benefit and was like, this is probably for the best. But also, I don't know. I'm just guessing. No, I agree with you. But also, yeah, TV's a lot of smoking mirrors too, where you like, they're going to project a perfect family image. So we may think some of these Trisha kids are doing really well when they're in fact not. Right. Yeah, interesting. Well, I think the like, cool, like whatever's happening in Atlanta right now with that is just so interesting because then also like, it's too part, right? If you have an abusive marriage, you kind of not only abuse your kids in a way like financially Kim is taking so much money from Ariana, but also you're just like, abusing your kids by not giving them the support that they need. But also maybe passing down the abuse that we see like with KJ. So I guess, yeah, any tips for people who might have like Brittany almost I think with Cruz, right? That's an abusive relationship. Like, what can she do to prevent that in the future?

46:24When I think that's a totally different thing too, but like, there's a possibility Jack's comes back, right? Oh, yeah. But the thing that I tend to stand for Brittany at this point, especially after she left Jack's like, she used to like permanently part of my heart. But like, the thing about Brittany though is that she seems to be very therapy savvy for her son. She is very involved. Very good. I am so proud of her. And my, my sense of someone like a Kim Zolciak and I don't think this is being all that rude is I don't think she's pro therapy. And so I don't think she was really ever willing to seek out. And I think, and again, I actually don't entirely think it's her fault because I think if you are truly narcissistic like to your bones, you can't really accept feedback. It's also just like, it's just, it's very hard for, if you think you're always right, you can't really accept feedback. So I think probably she has had access to lots of therapists saying, please come back, please follow this 10 step treatment plan,

47:24please follow up. And I just think she's sort of temperamentally suited such that she's like, I don't need that. And especially for kids, I bet two like her kids, right? Like she's like, I got it. There's like my kids are angels. What are you talking about? And like her just sort of delusional narcissism prevents her from following through words. I think Brittany is very, she does very good. Yeah. She's very accepting of help and realizes when her child needs extra help or like, you know, has special needs that need to be taken care of. She's very open to like, making sure his world is easier for him. And he has two walls to grow. Right. Yeah. She's been very good about that. I give her, she placed in my heart, my brother has autism. So watching her be really good about it, just because growing up a lot of parents that we would come in contact with were like almost embarrassed. So my mom made it like her, she's like, we're going to be very open. And with like

48:25the autistic community and like give our real struggles and feedback back. So I like Brittany being very open and being like, whatever crews needs we have it. Yeah. wraps the Brittany. Yeah, she's a wonderful job. Okay, Lauren, are there any other shows, terrible men, terrible people that we have to talk about? Gosh, who haven't we covered? No, I'm just so glad we even touched on Kenny because he's always on the back of my head as like, oh, I just detest it'll be an interesting one to see grow as that like relationship goes on TV since we're kind of boots on the ground in the relationship to he's not going to leave the show. He's gonna brace us with another. They were going to do a proposal on the show. So I was surprised. I was waiting for the season. They did people magazine instead, huh? Right. I guess we actually, can we hit really quick on Danny? Because that's fast meeting where he's like married with four children and wants to be like perfect dad. But we can tell

49:26he is he just abusive to other people or like, also, Nia, I can't, I can't read Danny. He's kind of an enigma for me personally. So Lauren, what's going on with Danny? I think Danny is like very narcissistic, right? Like, like season one, he's so charming. I actually thought he was a nice guy. I didn't see any red flags. What a great. He's very charming. But I think like over time, sort of like jacks like again, like if you give people enough time, like there's enough incidents that occur where you're like, oh, I can't with that attitude. Like, again, with that. But I do think he's probably very controlling of Nia at a minimum. I mean, he has clearly isolated her from her friend group. Again, like the Kenny Whitney, like he pulled her away, isolated her and then contaminated the friend group so that she couldn't trust anyone in the friend group contaminated even his friend against her. Like they put them in this situation where the only person you have is your partner. I'm like, that's the game. And so like Danny moving them out to Santa Clarita,

50:31like I do think it's super controlling. Interesting. I also think his dynamic with the drinking and substance abuse is also such another layer that yeah, jacks drink a lot, but we didn't necessarily see him be unable to like walk talk, like not touch people. Like it's another layer that for me, hits home a lot. And the fact that he cannot put his best face forward. And I find that so fascinating every time he kind of like crumbles under getting very drunk in the group and then lying about it, trying to clean it up, but it is intent like in 4k. Like Bravo is always going to show that. And it's so oppositional to Nia too. Like she'll go and be like, we're not going to drink and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you see him like sneaking like he's doing it also like to get a rise out of her. Yeah. It's just such a strange dynamic. And you treat their religion I think at my concern, like for Whitney, I'm like, oh Whitney will be out in five years. You know what I mean?

51:35Have one kid maybe two but it's kind of like making me get men on real housewives of Orange County. Not Megan King. Not Megan King at men. Exactly. Right. You know, you get called me in five years. I'm Vicki Gumbels and talking about Megan King. Totally. But like I think with Nia, I worry more because of the religious yeah, that like the religion, the maga coded all of that like in the four kids like very together. Like I just think like, oh, she's going to be in it for a longer. I don't have, I'm like, I still have hope that she will break free. But I think it would take her a lot longer. Interesting. Yeah. And she treats him like such a child. Which I think is kind of an egg. But I feel like that's also a different reaction that we haven't seen with other people where she has this ability to step in and really control it once he is in his drunkest state and try to control the aftershocks of it. But she obviously has no control or ability to kind of like maneuver their relationship in a higher level or like he will change things.

52:39Like she doesn't she only has that control when he's at his like lowest form and unable to do anything. And she's one of those that we kind of talked about of perfecting the hour, image similar to Rola like really controlling that aspect of it rather than being able to control your day-to-day life and that relationship. Right. Bravo is just fascinating, isn't it? It is. The relationships are so amazing. It's interesting how many so many like weave together. We've been able to haul different examples out. I haven't thought about her for ever. I think of her. Meredith loves her from St. Louis. So their relationship is extra special to me. He was scary. He was scary. And he would be dead. You need not be so great. He has full custody of the kids right now. He does? Yeah. He moved on to Tennessee too. Why does he have full custody of the kids? She allegedly was giving one of the twin boys the other twins medicine. I think it's like ADHD medicine and was giving it to both of them. And so of course, kind of all and temporarily removed her

53:45no idea. Custody and then he had full custody and moved on to Tennessee. Wow. That's crazy. I didn't know idea. That man. Like Jim Edmunds is fascinating to me because of his three wives. Like I just find that is so interesting. Well, I had no idea he had full custody because just like Thomas Ravenel, right? Like another dark malignant narcissist that has full custody of his kids. And like really is able to wield the court system against like their ex partners, the mother of their kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like hell. Like again, if we think about post-separation abuse, like what Thomas Ravenel and Catherine separated like 15 years. I mean, I don't know how long ago. A long time ago. I mean, it's still just burning her at the stake every day. Like he's doing right now. He's in the Supreme Court trying to get records unsealed, which is just breaking torture her. Yes. Nuts that man. Right. The second he was, what was he 87 years old dating this 21 year old? He was immediately like the power dynamic is just. And then if it's

54:49pregnant, back to the immediately. Oh, right. And like, and this is obviously we can't fully blame Bravo, but like public perception, we hated women at that time. So like, Catherine was the bad guy and thank goodness for Thomas Ravenel stepping in, which we talk about all the time is like the time was so different back in like the early 2010s. Yeah. Really hated women. And so we like now we're like, you know, we're about to settle about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were very over. Yeah. I mean, like walking back through the inter-pumpural seasons, it's really interesting to compare what our initial reactions were to like what we, how far we've come both with aging ourselves. And yeah, where society is kind of like picking up on some of these things and learnings, which gives me a lot of hope in just like individual people, like learning things. We love to learn from our reality TV personally. And so yeah, like talking through this stuff, I'm like realizing

55:52I've learned a lot more than I thought I had. We've grown. Yeah. Like we used to really like I remember I was a big Katie Maloney hate or at the beginning and then rewatching. I was like, oh, I just was taught like you hate women for having feelings or being strong or speaking or like not being nice and kind. But like, that's fine. We allow men to do it to anybody. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so wow, I love reality TV guys. I get a video talk about it. I know it's like it all lives in my head all the time. I know. I was thinking about them. No, 100% and I'm kind of a high note, Lauren. Is there anything right now that you're enjoying watching that maybe we should you can like recommend and will. Oh gosh. Oh, definitely real housewives of London. Oh, we haven't touched on that. No. Oh, you haven't watched it. Oh, yeah. I'm too jealous of them. I want to be a housewife in London. It's a really electric cast, meaning that they all really know each other really well. So you

56:53can see the venom and the grudges. And woman in particular, I'm not spoiling anything. A man that who is like central casting villain. But like, but in a really Bravo way that we haven't seen for I feel like we haven't seen for a while because I might grudge with a lot of the Bravo shows. Like if you think about Kyle Richards or any of these like long timers is like they're so protective of their brand. Yeah, yeah, but they don't really go too far because you're not going to hurt the brand. This woman Amanda Cronin on real housewives of London is like vicious and unhinged. Good for her. And it just like it harkens back to like OG Roni. Yeah. Okay. You shouldn't say on TV. I love. I am enjoying it. Okay. We're going to pick that up. I might start that tomorrow. It is good. It's good. I am excited. Well, Lauren, thank you so much for joining us. This was so fine. Yeah. Thanks for having me. We might have to have you back if we see stuff with Kenny. I'm

57:54going to need to stay on his city season two. Regrow. Take your start taking your notes when it comes out because I'm going to have everything. Everyone's going to know everything he does wrong. I'm in. I'm in. Okay. Well, thank you all for listening. Do all the things I mentioned at the beginning of the episode and without love you. Thanks for joining. Bye.