6524 You Just Don't LISTEN! CALL IN SHOW

0:00All right. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hey, how you doing? I'm good. I'm good. How are you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm, yeah, I'm not too bad. Thanks. So, um, yeah, we, we had a cool, um, a few months ago, by reading your, sorry, if you wanted to start by reading your message, I'm sure you know, the drill just stay off names of places and so on. And yeah, if you wanted to start off by reading your message, that's a good place to start. Yeah, no problem. So, um, yeah, just uh, for reference, I was a cooler on show 6378, I believe, um, and we talked about my early life and one of the main things I took away from the cool is that you suggested I developed a belief that other people were quite like the weather. Um, it came from my parents, right, um, as a, like a survival mechanism. And you also mentioned, um, well, yeah, you, you actually suggested doing another cool in the future to discuss other aspects of my life, such as relationships. So I hope we can address some stuff like that today. Um, the truth is I, at the

1:02moment, at least lean towards anti-natalism and have even used or attempted to use the map, uh, not a controversial, an argument in favor of it. Um, but part of me still wants things like an intimate relationship. And of course, to feel that I'm fulfilling biological imperatives. I've had a while to digest what you said. And I'm just hoping that we can build on that today and hopefully bring some clarity and direction to my life or at least put some of my angst to bed. Do you ever sense good? So tell me what's on your mind about relationships and children. Yeah. So I, um, I guess I, I thought about quite a lot since, um, since I last call. And yeah, I really, I'm in two minds about it, right? Because I've, um, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've heard a lot of, like, anti-natalist arguments. And to be honest, like, I, I am fairly persuaded by it. Um, but I've been again, there is part of me, but like, has this feeling of being behind and,

2:07of yeah, yeah, like, like feeling like a failure because I'm not like, even though I'm aware that, like, you know, we, like, everyone is, we'll do your spectre to animals, right? Um, like, who are biological imperatives and stuff for trying to fulfill. I'm like, even though I'm aware of that, like, it still feels bad sometimes, or like, it still feels like I have this, this innate pressure to do things to, like, to engage with society and to pursue relationships, even though part of me sees it as kind of an uphill battle. And, um, yeah, perhaps even futile. Um, yeah. So I've just, kind of wondering, um, what your thoughts were on that. I mean, that's a lot. So you, yourself, do you want to have children or do you just feel like it's just a biological imperative or a social expectation? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think I, I, I could see myself wanting to have that, um, if I met the right person, um, and if like, well, sorry, I could see myself wanting that is

3:13not quite the same as I want that. So you're, you're looking for a yes or no answer. Do you want to have children? Because if you, let's say, let's say you meet a woman who really wants to have kids and you're like, yeah, I mean, I, I could see myself doing that with the right person. Uh, will she want to have children with you? Yeah. Um, so, look, it's really difficult. Like I, I, I, I, I, I, I always flip back and forth between yes and no one is. What was my question? It was, it was, do I want to have children? No. Okay. So you, it was, if I meet someone, okay, what was my question? Sorry. It was, it was, it, it, if I meet someone and she wants to have children. Yeah. What, what do I do? No. So I know, like you say, the autism thing, I really do need you to listen though, uh, and not fall into your own head. Sorry. I hate to be an egg and annoying, but it is kind of important. I'm sorry. My question was, if you meet a woman who really wants to have children and you say, yeah, I could see

4:17myself doing that. Will she want to have children with you? Okay. I understand. Um, so, that would, so you're saying that because it would, it could come across as me being indecisive and maybe not a good calendar. Oh, okay. Um, theorizing. Will she want to have children with a man who's ambivalent about having children and thinks he might like it if the right circumstances arise? No. No. Why not? Well, if she senseless, she wouldn't because that would suggest that I would, you know, not be, like one, one stick around and I wouldn't be a good parent. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But if you don't, she's a single mom. Yeah. So, right. Okay. So, so then the only way that you will have children is if you meet another woman who's also ambivalent about it, but if she's ambivalent about it, she probably won't want to have kids, right? Because if you're ambivalent about it, if you don't really

5:20want something that's really expensive and difficult and having children to be frank is expensive and difficult, right? Children cost, you know, depending on whether they go to college or not, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars, you lose a huge amount of sleep and time and parenting and, you know, their stress and worry and, right? So, I mean, there's, I mean, it's overall, for me, of course, a massive net positive. But if you're not, if you're not convinced you want something, then you're not going to do it if it's really difficult or expensive or something like that, if that makes sense. So, so, so your point is that like you could see like someone of that attitude, you could end up being like a deadbeat dad and just having lots of problems with having had children. Sorry. Yeah. That's not quite responsive to what I just said. Oh, sorry. No, I was just some, no, you're having a parallel conversation and only half listening to me. So, you're thinking about, it's fine. You're thinking about things in your head and you're only half listening to me. Okay. And that's fine. And I don't need to be an egg. I really apologize, but what was the point

6:23I just made? The point you just made was that about someone not one, yeah. Sorry. So someone who would, yeah, if I was to be in a relationship with someone and one of children and I was ambivalent about it, they would see that. That was the point I made right before. What was the point I just made? Point you just made. I think I'm not trying to be an egg. I'm just, I just need to know whether we're having a conversation or not. Yeah. Okay. I guess it's kind of hard for me to, so it was, it was a building on that point, right? Okay. So the point that I just made was that if you're ambivalent about doing something and it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and costs a huge amount of time, you're probably not going to do it. Yeah. Okay. So then if you meet another woman like yourself, or you're like, ah, you know, I don't know, anti-natalism is kind of powerful and I don't know,

7:24then you're almost certainly not going to have kids because it's very expensive and very time-consuming. Okay. And let's say that you do the recommended thing. I don't know if you remember this part at all. But if you do the recommended thing and she stays home for 18 months, the breast feeds and then she stays home for at least the first five years. So maybe you homeschool your kids because Lord knows there's a lot of really terrible stuff out there in government education and even private education has to follow the same curriculum for the most part. So you're just going to be changing your entire life, giving up huge amounts of money and time and homeschooling and and all of that sort of stuff and you've got to take your kids to the dentist and maybe they need eyeglasses or braces, you know, all this kind of stuff, right? So if you are ambivalent about having children and you meet a woman who's also ambivalent about having children, you're almost certainly not going to have children. Okay. Like if I'm ambivalent about going into the army and going into the army requires me to sign up for 20 years, am I going to join the army? Well, it's like you're not.

8:25Well, almost certainly not. In fact, it would be crazy to put any money. If I'm like, I don't know, maybe the army could be cool, maybe not, I don't know. There's lots of arguments about how, you know, being in the army is really bad. You just the soldier for hire for bad people and you defending the Epstein class, you know, whatever it is. And I have to sign up for 20 years, a brutal, a combat training and no sleep and like, am I going to join the army if I'm ambivalent about joining the army? If you've got to sign up for 20 years. No. Okay. So if you are ambivalent, and I'm not here to argue you in and out of your ambivalence, right? But if you are ambivalent, then you're almost certainly not going to have children and certainly not with a sensible woman, because a sensible woman does not want to sign up for like children are, I mean, 20 years of primary raising, maybe more, get if they stay home or whatever, but it's for the rest of your life. Like you now have someone in your life for the rest of your life that you are significantly responsible for completely when they're young a little bit more as they get older because,

9:26you know, you still raise them and all of that. And so a woman is not going to sign up. A sensible woman is not going to sign up to have kids with a guy who doesn't even really know if he wants to be a father because you may be there, but not there also by the by. If you don't listen to people, you won't get a quality woman anyway. Right. Sorry. Just to be blunt, right? It's fine with me. Like I'm just a podcaster or what does it matter? Right? Yeah. But I'm just saying that if you're having these parallel conversations in your head and not really listening to people, then a quality woman obviously won't want to want to date you because people don't want to be in conversations where you're not listening. Sorry. And again, I'm not trying to be mean. I have to just sort of tell you the facts of the situation. So sorry, that's my little intro. So go ahead. No, yeah. If I could just interject. So yeah, apologies. I was trying my best to follow the conversation. I think I just got off to a slow start. No, no, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to be annoying. I can't let you do that. I'm so sorry. It's so mean. I apologize. I just

10:28can't let you do that because that's gaslighting. So if you're doing your best, hang on. No, no, no, but you're making an excuse. So and again, I'm not trying to be mean. But the fact of the matter is that you weren't doing your best to follow the conversation because let's say that you know you have trouble listening to people, which is fine. We all have that from time to time. Then what you would do is you'd say, okay, so I'm going to have this call with Steph. I'm going to have a note pet here. I'm going to really make sure I close my eyes. I don't think of anything else. I'll make notes about what he's saying. That would be trying your best, right? Yeah, but you didn't do. And again, I'm not trying to be mean or an egg. I just want to point out the reality, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So you didn't do your best, right? No. Okay. So then when you tell me, I'm doing my best, I just got off to a slow start. That's not true because doing your best. I was doing my best in the moment. Well, I don't know what that means. Now you're changing your story again, right? Because you said I was doing my best and I was just qualifying. So first you said you were doing your

11:31best. And then when I pointed out that doing your best would be close your eyes, get rid of any distractions or maybe just write notes about what I'm saying because you know you have difficulty listening. But then you would have heard what I'm saying. And if I said what did I just ask, you'd said, oh, something about the expense of children, right? So you weren't doing your best. And now you're changing your story to say I was doing my best in the moment. And I don't know what that means. And I'm happy to understand what that means. But what does it mean to say I'm doing my best in the moment? It means within, so it means like in hindsight, now you mentioned it, I could have, yeah, perhaps planned it out to take it to the end. I got to be annoying about these weasel words. What's your being? I could perhaps. You could have said, okay, I have trouble listening. I know this from the prior conversation. So I'm going to make notes and all this kind of stuff, right? I thought I thought I was quite engaged in the prior conversation. Okay, but I'm okay,

12:32but you know you have difficulty listening because you talked about the autistic stuff, right? And so, and again, I'm not complaining that you weren't listening. I am complaining that you're saying you were doing your best because I just don't believe that to be true because if doing your best means you can't like twice in a row, you can't remember what someone just said. And you're not even honest about it and say, Steph, I totally gapped out. I missed what you said. I'm sorry, but you just pretend, you know, like the the kid who's asked the question by the teacher who just filled up us. So if we're going to have a conversation, which I really do want to have, then we do have to have sort of a basic level of honesty. And if I say, what did I just say, and you don't remember what you need to do? I need to apologize and ask you to repeat. Yeah, yeah. And that's totally fine. Again, even the apology stuff, you know, Steph, I gapped out. I've you know, I've got a lot of my mind. I'm thinking about 10 different things. And I'm sorry, I just missed what you said. If you could repeat and I'll I'll work to concentrate a little more. That's totally fine. I mean, you know, I sometimes have to ask people to repeat things. And

13:36I've had calls where I've got people's age wrong three times. Right. So, so it happens, right? We all have moments of attention and so on. But I knew that you did not listen to what I said. I knew that you didn't remember it, but you weren't being direct about it. And again, I'm not trying to be some big nag. It's not some big moral crime or big bad thing or anything like that. But it is sort of a fact that I knew that you weren't listening. And and you were pretending that you were. And then when I called that out, you said, well, I was doing my best. And then when I pointed out that you weren't doing your best, you said, well, I'm doing my best in the moment. And I don't even know what that means that doesn't make any sense to me at all. So I think you just point. Sorry, you go ahead, please. No, I think you raised quite an important point, actually. And it does actually echo a little bit of, um, of our previous school. Um, because that does say something about like my psychology, why I do that, why I try and my squeeze all my way out of like,

14:41like an admitting soul, right? I'll be like, oh, it was just a, you know, I'm saying, like, try and play it now, try and pretend that I did fully understand when I didn't fully understand that that has been a pattern in my life. And okay. So again, we use the words, sorry to be annoying. Okay. When you say I didn't fully understand, that's a weasel word. You didn't remember what I said 10 seconds ago. You weren't listening. So that's not a question of I didn't fully understand. I don't even know what fully understand means. Like you reach inside my brain and scoop out the neurons and examine the, but the microscope. So you keep, and again, it's not a big criticism at all, but you do keep downplaying that you weren't listening. And, and I'm not even mad about you not listening. I'm not even mad about you like, uh, gaslighting me about it. I'm just pointing it out. Okay. Because now fully, uh, I didn't fully understand. Again, I don't even know what that would mean. But if I had a standard that says, I'm going to criticize you if you don't fully understand me, that would be an unreasonable standard, right? Because nobody could possibly know what it means

15:44to fully understand someone. It's, it's very, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, it's defensive. And it's also, you keep throwing jabs at me, right? So if, if I'm saying, look, you're not listening. And then you say, Hey, I'm doing the best that I can. Then I'm a mean guy, right? You know, if I was, let's say, let's say, well, let's, let's, what's the sport that you're good at? Um, cycling. Uh, okay. That involves some, uh, skill. I'm not saying cycling is mostly just stamina, right? But I mean, yeah, so let me give you, so let's say that you didn't play tennis. I've been playing tennis since I was like five years old. So let's say I take you out to tennis court and I'm teaching you how to play tennis, right? And I get mad at you because you hit it badly with that unreasonable. No, no, of course not because you're just learning, right? Of course, you're going to hit it badly, right? And so if you say, I'm doing the best I can, but for me,

16:45it's not enough. It makes me look like a bully, right? If you say, I'm doing the best that I can. Let's say that you were really hard of hearing. And I kept criticizing you because you didn't quite understand words. You say, listen, I'm, I'm hard of hearing. I'm really trying, right? Then I would look like a jerk, right? For saying that, right? So when you say to me, Hey, Steph, I'm doing the best that I can. And I'm, let's say, mouthy annoyed or have a criticism or something like that. If someone is doing the best that they can and they get criticized for it, then the person who's criticizing them is kind of a jerk, right? And then when you say, well, I didn't fully understand you, then that also is positioning me to look like a jerk because if I have a standard that says, you must fully understand that's a sliding scale. Nobody knows what it means. And I can use that to attack anyone, right? I can say to anyone, you didn't fully understand what I mean because

17:49nobody knows what that, right? And I didn't ask you to fully understand what I mean. What I asked you was, what did I just say? So you are, you have a habit. And listen, we all do this. So I'm not criticizing you from any superior standpoint, right? You have a habit where if you are criticized, you reframe the conversation to make the other person look like a jerk. So when I, when you say, I was, Steph, I was doing my best. And I say, I don't think you were. And here's what looking, you're, what looking your best might look like you, you know, you're really concentrating and you're making notes about the conversation and so on, right? And so rather than say to me, Steph, you know what? Of course, that would make more sense. I'm sorry that I said I was doing the best that I could because obviously that was just kind of a reflex to minimize your criticism. And right? What you then was you changed it to I was doing, sorry, to me, it's a little funny, so you changed it to I was doing my best in the moment. Whatever that means. Everything is in the

18:51moment. So it's another meaningless phrase that allows you. So rather than say, Steph, you know, you're right, I was, I was maybe hedging a little bit. I was weeding a little bit, which we all do. And rather than say that, you just redefined it to I was doing my best in the moment. Again, I don't even know what that means because everything is in the moment. My sentence here is flowing through the moment. So when you say I was doing my best in the moment, you're just redefining things as a whole rather than saying, you know what? When I said I was doing my best, it wasn't really true. And listen, I know this sounds like, oh, it's so critical. I don't mean that in that way at all, I'm just trying to illuminate the habit that you have that is going to keep high quality relationships away from you. Because if you redefined this is very passive, it's very passive, aggressive. When someone points out that you're not listening to then reframe it so that the person who is calling you out for not listening, and I'm just being honest, right? I haven't told you any names. I'm not saying that you're doing anything terrible or wrong or bad. I'm just pointing out

19:53the basic fact that you're not listening. And then if you reframe that so that I look like an intolerant jerk with impossible standards, I am not satisfied when someone's doing their best. I expect someone to fully understand, like, that's just kind of weasily and it is, it is redefining the interaction so that I look like a bully and you look like a victim rather than just saying, Steph, I got to shake this off. I am very distracted. You're right. I appreciate you calling that out. I appreciate you. I mean, I care about the quality of the conversation, right? Which is why I'm pointing this out, not because I have any hostility towards you or anything like that. I just, I care about the quality of the conversation. And because you're calling it with a public call, if I pretend that you're listening to me, when you're not really listening to me, then I look dissociated and I look like I'm not aware of what's occurring in the conversation. But people call me because of my detailed awareness of what's occurring in communication. Yeah. I'm wondering where

21:00I get that habit from. Thanks for pointing that out. Sure, no problem at all. And I appreciate you you listening and again, there's nothing. There's nothing that's a problem here. It's just to me quite fascinating. But that is interesting. Okay. So what's your history with being criticized? Well, I think at early childhood, really, I went to a very strictly religious school and yeah, I was like, like, conformity was really kind of reinforced. And yeah, I think especially being being autistic and that made it even more difficult to conform and to listen to it. Like you have the normal, like, default society, like written rules. And then you also have the context of a religious school environment. And I think it was, it didn't never felt safe to make mistakes or miss information like I did just then. And so I think I developed

22:06from that and also partly from, yeah, like, and difficulties at family life and stuff, right? That we talked about before. Through that, I think, you know, you really like highlighted, but this is a defense mechanism that comes from comes from my past. Well, and I would go a little deeper as well. And that's very deep, right? So this is just like one person deeper. I would also say that you didn't listen in order to have this pointed out. I'm not consciously aware of that. No, no, I'm not conscious. No, I'm aware of that. Yeah. But I mean, did you, I can't imagine that you would think that given how virtually obsessed I am with effective communication, that if you didn't listen to me, I can't imagine that you thought I wouldn't say something. And again, I'm not saying this is a conscious thing or anything like that, which just give me a car launch. Just make up anything I want. But I think it fits into the, especially because we've had a conversation before. And I mean, it sounds like, you know, I just don't tolerate, you know,

23:11that sounds kind of mean and and and judgmental and all of that. But if you're not listening to me, and again, it's not not a big criticism. It happens to all of us. But if you're not listening to me, I'm going to point it out. And if you then pretend to listen to me, I'm going to point that out. And then if you make excuses that make me look intolerant, I'm going to point that out. Like I have a sort of relentless commitment to being direct and honest and not mean or anything like that. And direct and honest is about my experience. It's not about some objective truth. My experience was that you weren't listening to me. Now, of course, if I just said, what was my question and you would have just repeated the question, then I would have said, Oh, okay, here's listening and my intuition or my instinct that I'm not being listened to as far as that's fine. And so I think that you, because because you were you're listening now, right? We don't have any problem with the back and forth now. And so I think at the beginning, you needed to be grounded and you needed someone to care enough about you. Because you know, it's funny because I kind of sound mean like, you know, like you're not listening. What did I just ask you? You know, it sounds like some, you know,

24:15some pink Floyd teacher for me. You can't have any putting if you don't eat your meat. And so, and so I sound like some mean, you know, with you on the back of the hand with the with the ruler kind of guy. But it's because I care about the conversation and I care about you. And I care about the quality of our interaction. And so I think there was a part of you read down that said, okay, I'm going to show up totally dissociated. And I'm going to see if Steph cares about me enough to point that out in a way that's hopefully friendly and positive and certainly not critical or hostile. And that way, I can experience what it's like to be listened to. Because when you didn't listen to me, I think deep down, you were saying, well, Steph, notice and talk to me about the fact that I'm not listening. Well, he noticed that I'm not being present in the conversation. Well, he noticed that I'm not there. Now, if this is a new experience for you, something like today, which in general, it is

25:18because most people would just get snappy and annoying like, why wouldn't I even talk to you if you're not listening to me? It's like, oh, it happens to all of us. And you know, I'm more curious about all of this than I, it's, it's actually kind of hard to offend me as a whole. I mean, it happens, but it's not that, not that common. So I think you have dissociation again, we all do. And I think that deep down, you wanted to know whether I would notice it and pull you back into the conversation or easy to say, yank you like a guy with a truck and a rope. But it's so easy back into the conversation and notice that you weren't there. And what that does is it highlights, I assume, the thousands of times that you've had conversations with people where you haven't been really listening and they either didn't notice, didn't care or got offended, if that makes sense. So this highlights a difference. I think it does. Yeah. Because if you have this habit and it's not being called out before, it means that you've been able to hide. You're not listening or people just haven't cared or I mean, do people get upset if you don't listen? Like what happens when

26:22you don't listen to people in general? I mean, for you, not in the abstract. Yeah. I think it really is situation dependent. I think if like, I'm sorry to be annoying. Everything is situation dependent. Right? Okay. Okay. Everything is situation dependent. So I understand that it's different, but what happens to you? I mean, I gave you three options. People don't notice, don't care or get offended. And I guess you can tell me if you've experienced all three. So I haven't really ever had anyone else point out that I wasn't listening to them. So I think the third option, yeah, like I'd never really experienced that. I think a lot of times your people don't, don't say it's like, don't know, listen, or don't care. Right? So out of those, yeah, I mean, if they didn't care, I don't really, I can't really tell if they noticed or not, if they didn't tell me. Right? So that kind of makes it difficult and maybe that's why I haven't

27:26had a conversation like this before. And yeah, I think a lot of the time, like I'm kind of known as being like good with my words. And so I can kind of, well, I think I've almost like learned a little bit to with like a lot of people, be able to, like kind of like, almost like manipulate a conversation, like, they call it a masking, right? Through autistic, to kind of like almost like the other predict, like their outputs and like their reactions and stuff. And so yeah, I've never really had a conversation like this before. And how old do you? 28. Okay. And why do you think you've managed to fly under the radar of not listening for almost 30 years? I think I think I am like relatively general population. I am somewhat other-hand I do have some friends, but I just, a lot of the time I do just, I do try and avoid people,

28:28because I find social interaction is difficult. And I think also a lot of the time, like, I've always been like more intelligent than most people who have been around, like, yes, in my environment. And so there has been quite a times like easy for me to work my way around a conversation and to set it up so that like, I said, like, challenge, like I avoid being challenged. Boy, there's a big giant gap in what you're talking about. Do you know what it is? Between like avoiding people and- What do you tell me? What you told me? There's a big giant gap. Because to about how I avoid- No, no, you're talking about- You're talking about your adult experience. So- Oh, see, yeah. What's the big giant gap? Early life childhood experience. Well, your first 18 years or whatever it was that you were living at home, right?

29:31Yeah. Okay, so because there you can't just avoid people living in a house with people. Don't have school with kids, whatever, right? Yeah. So why would you only tell me about the adult side? And again, it's not- I'm asking this question with genuine curiosity. I'm not offended. I'm certainly not mad. I'm just like, wow, that's interesting that you wouldn't talk about your childhood. So for my teenage years, I was homeschooled. And so that kind of exempted me from a lot of those school related interactions. But still, yeah, obviously I saw people. I just think- I'm sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. So what that means? So who homeschooled you? Mama, dad? Mom, okay. So that doesn't lower the problem it raises it. Because if you were homeschooled by your mother, which I'm not if, sorry, like I'm not saying you're lying, right? Of course. So given that you were homeschooled by your mother, then your mother should have noticed when you weren't listening. And should have, you know,

30:34gently called it out or something like that or sort of taught you how to listen better, you know, all the stuff which we need to learn to do as a whole in life, right? So why do you think your mother didn't notice or point to sound? Why she didn't notice a point out? I mean, I really- I don't have a single answer for you, Stefan. It sounds like- Oh, it's such a habit, man. Ha, ha, ha. It's such a habit. Okay. Did I ask for a single answer? No, no, no, no, I was saying- No, you're reframing it. You're reframing it. You're reframing it so that I'm now asking the impossible. No, no, no, I didn't say that. You said I don't have a single answer for you, which is not something that I didn't ask for a single answer. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Okay. You do. Because if- I mean, you've known your mother for 28 years, 25 of them consciously.

31:37So if there are things that you don't know about your mother, then it's impossible to know anyone, right? Because you have the most exposure in your life given that your mother home school juice, the most exposure in your life to your mother. And if you can't figure out your mother's motivations, then you're throwing up your hands and saying nobody can understand anyone else. But then the problem is you're calling me to have me understand you in an hour or two. Yeah. So how can you have 28 years with your mom and not understand her and then say, Steph, but you can understand me. I mean, I think I did it in the first five or ten minutes, at least with this particular issue about listening. So you say, Steph, after 28 years with my mother, I don't have a clue about her motives, but I need you to puzzle me out in five or ten minutes. If I can puzzle you out in five or ten minutes, let's say I have some particular skill or ability or experience, whatever, I'm sure I do. But if I can puzzle you out in five or ten minutes and you got 28 years with your mom, you can do her. So just to say your question, your original question was why she didn't

32:41cool out this habit I have of dissociating and not listening. Yes. Yes. I'm trying to. So I think I think she tried, like I think maybe she didn't want to do the work at the time to fix it. I thought she made me feel like that's just how I am. Did she ever try to get to eat your vegetables? Yes. Did she ever say you can't have dessert until after you've had your dinner? Yes, but I don't very well have, like, like, easing vegetables was never a problem really for me. Yeah, no, my, but there were things she told you to defer your gratification, like you need to do your homework and then you can go out and play or something like that. So she would teach you to defer gratification, right?

33:41Yeah. Okay, good. So deferring gratification means it's less pleasant now, but it's positive in the long run. I mean, no kid wants to brush their teeth, but your parents says what? What does parents say about brushing your teeth? Oh, your teeth will fall out. Yeah, you're the negative effect. You can't under your teeth. Right. So your mother, of course, taught you and I'm sure very robustly that it's important to know when to defer gratification so that you don't end up with a small amount of positive experiences, such as not brushing your teeth, any large amount of negative experiences, such as losing your teeth. Okay. And I'm sure with homeschooling, there was stuff that you didn't want to study, but she says it's important for you to study. You've got to learn this. You've got to learn that even if you don't feel like it because it's important for whatever reason, right? So your mother was very big on deferring gratification, right? Yeah. She did defer gratification. However, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would say she doesn't defer it to the extent that perhaps

34:43you would say is optimal. Again, I don't know what that means because I'm not sure what is not not as much as you as you are, I was with suggest might be. Again, that's my reading. So we just have to stay with the fact, right? So try to guess what I think should or shouldn't be in your mother's relationship with you. I have no idea what that means. So, okay. So, but your mother had the principle of deferring gratification. Yeah, it was like moderate deferral gratification, I balanced with also like, yeah, joys of life as well. Well, then, but that's the Aristotelian mean. If you never deny gratification, you're just a pure heathenist and you don't do very well. If all you do is define is defer gratification, then you're some sort of self punitive aesthetic and you just don't have any happiness in life. So, so what you're saying is that your mother had a a healthy balance of deferring gratification and not deferring gratification. And it's deferring gratification,

35:44not eliminating gratification permanently, right? Okay. So, if you say she had a healthy amount, I'm not sure how you then say I would think it was not optimal. But anyway, that's that's a, a bit of a maze there. But your mother will work because it's on a scale, right? Sorry, what do you mean? It's on a scale, right? Like from like zero pure heathenism, 100 like total assatuses of the assatuses and right? And so, there's like, it's not like discrete, like there is like, there's like, yeah, there's like scales of it, right? It's on a scale. It's been like how how much you lean towards hedonism versus not. Well, there's no such thing in deferring gratification as a hundred because that would be an infinitely deferring gratification, which means never achieving gratification, which means it's not about deferring gratification anymore. It's like saying, I'm deferring gratification because I'm going to spend all my money after I'm dead. Well, that means you never get to spend your money. So, so yeah, it's an Aristotelian meaning you don't want too little, you don't want too much.

36:48So then when you say like, you can be at 20% or 80% and that will be different, right? Are you are you now going to lecture me that there's a difference between 20% and 80%? No, no, no, no, no, I mean, I'm sorry, that's not a patronizing. I just I just want to clarify that we're on the same page about like that it's a scale rather than a yes or no. But you and you said that your mother had a healthy degree of self gratification of deferring gratification, right? Are you? If I understood, I'm not going to put my question back to what I understood you said. I've actually had some deferral gratification or maybe not exactly some, but that's why men sorry, I'm not clear. And now looking back, I perhaps do question whether where my parents and general or my family's degree of deferral gratification is appropriate. Well, it changes. Yeah, it changes over the course of your life. So when I was doing my graduate degree, I had to learn how to translate French or some other language I chose French. I had to learn how to

37:52translate a couple of pages of French within a certain amount of time. Now that's so I had to do that to graduate my master's degree. And so I put a lot of work and time and effort and energy into learning how to translate a French. Now it made sense for me to do it back then because I wanted to get my graduate degree, it doesn't make sense for me to do it now. Right? So because I'll be like 60, shortly. So most of my productive major parts of my life are in the rear view. That doesn't mean I won't be productive going forward, but it's not like I, maybe I should have been a doctor. When I was 20, I should have chosen to be a doctor. And it's like, okay, but I'm not going to choose to be a doctor now because it's too late. Right? It's no point trying to be a doctor. Try to stop being a doctor with your 60, right? So some deferral of gratification makes sense. You know, when I was younger, of course, it was difficult to ask girls out. So I made myself do it. I pushed myself to do it. And I'm glad that I did. Now that I'm happy, I married, I don't want to push myself to ask girls out because I'm

38:57happy. So there's a different, there's a totally deferral of gratification changes over time and and so on, right? It's like the, it's the last meal. You know, if somebody says, you know, should you eat an entire cheesecake, people would say, well, probably not. However, if it's your last meal before you get executed, people would probably say, hey, man, go for it. You know, like, what does it matter? You're about to die. So, so all these things are sort of different. So, you know, when I was younger, learning cool dance moves was important. Now that I'm older, learning, learning cool dance moves is not so important. So, so my point, but the deferral of gratification was if your mother understands, which I'm sure she does, and it sounds like she illustrated or demonstrated, if she understands the principle of the deferral of gratification, then if you have a child who's not listening to you and you said, well, maybe she didn't, maybe she didn't, she didn't want to put in the work at the time. You said something like that. Like,

39:58maybe she didn't call out me not listening because she didn't want to put in the work at the time. But as a whole, is it easier to deal with a child who's not listening early or to just let it continue and continue and continue on and on and on for almost 30 years? So that would be a deferral of gratification. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I, and it's which, which is easier to address it immediately. Yeah, I mean, look, it took us all of 10 or 15 minutes. Now our listening is going back and forth and it's all all great, right? Yeah. So it could have been dealt with in, you know, and maybe there's a couple of reminders here and there, blah, blah, blah, blah, but we don't have that problem now. So it took all of 10 or 15 minutes to point this out and to, to significantly improve the conversation. Does that make sense? The way when she do that. And you say, well, maybe she didn't want to put the work in at the time, but that doesn't make any sense because it's not that much work to remind people to listen,

41:03right? And it's a whole lot of work in relationships if people aren't listening, right? So just from a deferral that put the work in now so that you get 15 or 20 years of great conversations when you deal with it in 10 or 15 minutes, it makes total sense to do the work now to point out that you're not listening and to get to the root of it or to try and talk about it. It makes much more sense to do that because then you get great conversations with your mom going forward as opposed to her avoiding those 10 or 15 minutes worth of work and then getting decades or decades of not great conversations. Does that sort of make sense? Like it doesn't make sense that she would not do that. It's worth putting the work in, sorry, go ahead. Oh yeah, no, so your point really is that she failed to adequately defer gratification by failing to address that. Well, you said maybe she didn't want to put the work in at the time, but it doesn't make any sense. If you were to say, I told my mom she should become

42:09a Navy SEAL, but she decided not to put the work in at the time. It's like, yeah, I can understand being a Navy SEAL takes like 10 years of grueling training and blah, blah, blah, blah. But this is like 10 or 15 minutes of conversation, which I mean, I don't think it was particularly unpleasant. I thought it was interesting. I get it was probably a little more difficult for you than it was for me, but I don't think it was horrible to have that conversation earlier in the call, was it? No, I think really like the cortisol spike that was giving me kind of like snapped me into place. Obviously, well, I got like, I've got to like get my shit together, right? So that's cool. Yeah, I mean, and I do that because I want you to have a quality call. I want you to have a positive experience of philosophy of what I do. I'm desperately digging in to make sure people have a get value out of what it is that I'm doing or the conversation that we're having. And of course, if you're not listening, I can't provide value. And what I want to do is provide value. And also, I think that's better for you if you listen and agree or disagree, at least you're listening

43:11and someone, right? So the question then becomes it is not a practical thing to not spend 10 or 15 minutes, even if you have to do it for a week or two, 10 or 15 minutes a day, trying to improve your your sense of listening, right? That's a reasonable thing. It's a reasonable thing to do. And the quality in conversation now, as opposed to the beginning, it's not even the same category, right? At the beginning, there was virtually no conversation. Now, I think that's a good conversation. So it's not just like twice as good. It's gone from a non-conversation to an actual conversation, right? That's that's good, right? So why would your mother not do that? She was so sorry, I maybe because she didn't want me to engage in that way. And I get I don't need to be that. Basically, I'm saying, why did she do it? Didn't say because she didn't want to, but that's by definition, right? Why doesn't someone do something because they don't want to, but the question is why? It's easier not to. Well, but that goes back to the deferral of gratification question.

44:18It's easier to not brush your teeth, but she didn't let that happen. So she knows that. And if anyone were to say, is it a good conversation if one party is not listening to the other, what would everyone say? No, yeah, it's not, right? So your mother, your intelligence, I'm sure your mother is intelligent and so on, right? So if your mother were to be asked, is it good if your son is not listening to you, then she would say, no, it's not good. So she knows that, right? This is not what is how do you conjugate some complex Latin phrase? I mean, maybe she knows that too, but I don't, right? She does. She calls her honest. They go towards the house. So so this is not complicated. Everybody knows that if one person is not listening, it can't be a good conversation. I mean, that's almost by definition, but it is sort of a fact, right? So she knows that. And she also knows about the deferral of gratification. And if somebody were to say to your mother, if you notice that

45:20someone is not listening to you, did you politely point it out? What would she say? If someone's not listening to she politely point out, I think, I think probably not actually, and that, so that would be because maybe because like the British culture, maybe if we, if I was to like in America, it would be different, right? It would be like more of a passive, aggressive, like, and end the end of the conversation kind of thing with this kind of word. Sorry, but if it's a relationship that is not optional, like a parent-child relationship, yeah. If someone has a habit of not listening to you, should you politely point it out? Now, I mean, I grew up in England as well. And in England, being polite is important, right? Is it polite not listening to someone or to pretend to listen? No, that's correct. You get cool. Well, I mean, it's pretty easy to catch you, right? I mean, if I make a

46:23point and then you go off on some tangent a couple of times, then really you're not listening. So for me, it is a mark of politeness to point out when someone is being, and listen, I'm not calling you rude because it's just a habit. And I'm not, this is why I don't criticize people on long-term habits because it's just, it comes from how they're raised, right? You know, if some kid pointed at a tree and said, you know, that's a MF or some terrible word, I'd be like, wow, your parents have really taught you badly. You know, I wouldn't say that kid is necessarily rude, but they've been taught badly. So to me, if somebody is not listening, that's a little rude or a little inconsiderate. And also, it falls under the category of falsehood. Again, I'm not saying you were some big liar here, but if somebody's pretending to listen, but isn't listening, that's a form of falsehood. And I was always told to tell the truth. You know, tell the truth though the skies fall, tell the truth and shame the devil, tell the truth. So if my experience is that you're not listening to me, to me, it is honest and polite to point that

47:27out. Because otherwise, what I'm doing is I'm pretending to have a conversation, which is not a conversation. And I'm also lying about my experience because my thought is you're not listening. And if I pretend that you are, I'm not being polite. I'm just being a liar. And I'm also letting you get away, so to speak, with something that's not exactly super polite, which is pretending to listen to someone. So to me, this is entirely an accordance with British culture. Now, if it was just, I don't know, if it's some waitress who wasn't listening to me, I don't think I'd really do that much about it. You know, I just not go back to the restaurant, maybe or something like that. So we get back to, if it's not British culture, and it's not because she didn't see the value in it, and so on, there has to be some other reason as to why. He hasn't pointed out that sometimes, as is the case with all of us, sometimes you don't listen. If she's never pointed that out, there's an interesting question as to why. Do you know where? Well, I think so. But the other thing I wanted to mention as well is that it also sabotages you. Because if you have within yourself the

48:32unconscious habit that listening to other people is totally optional, that if you want to just stop listening to them, you totally can, and it's totally fine, is that good or bad for your relationships? Right. Right. So it's destructive for you, for your mother, not to point out that you're not listening. Because your initial question to me was, Steph, I have questions about relationships, romantic relationships, other kinds of relationships, right? Now, if your mother never pointed out that sometimes you don't listen to people, and then you pretend that you are, you kind of lie about that, and then you have an unconscious defense mechanism where you accuse them of being intolerant or not letting you do your best or she know whatever it is, right? Then people are just going to find that kind of manipulative and dickish, right? I mean, I'm not saying I do because I kind of get where it's coming from, but most people aren't me, right? And so most people are going to say, okay, this guy doesn't listen, and when I call them out, he gets all passive aggressive and says it's my fault for

49:35having impossible standards. This is just too much work. I don't think I want to engage. And it's your mother's job to point out if you have a bad habit. Of course, right? I mean, if you were up to your elbow picking your nose all the time and eating it, right? It would kind of be up to your mom or your dad or someone who cared about you to say, hey, by the way, that's not generally considered a very good thing. And if you could not do that, I think you'll end up a lot happier and that's trying to figure out why you're doing that. Why would your mother, again, I know I'm just annoyingly asking the same questions again, and I get that you're having trouble with the answer. So yeah, but the question before us is why would your mother and father not point it out? So there's only a couple of options, which is sort of, okay, so either they don't notice, they don't notice that you're not listening, okay? So why would they not notice that you're not listening? Because they're not in the conversation. I don't know if you've ever had somebody who traps you in story time, like somebody who's just got

50:40crazy endless stories and just won't release you and just keeps wanting to tell you the stories, and it doesn't really matter whether you give them feedback and they don't seem to care whether you find interesting or anything like that. You just have to stick around to be polite, sort of, yeah. Yeah, so have you ever had someone like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay, so they don't care if you're listening or not because that's narcissistic. It's narcissistic to say, I just want to discharge all of this information. I don't care whether you find it interesting. It's just for me, me, me, I, me, me, I, I don't care if you're listening. I don't care at all. It doesn't matter to me. Only my needs count. I don't need, I, it doesn't even cross my mind whether you're interested or not. It doesn't cross my mind whether you want to have any feedback or any input or whether you have stories of your own. It doesn't matter to me. I just love the sound of my own voice. That's going to get clips. I just love the sound of my own voice and I just want to talk, talk, talk,

51:40and I don't, I don't give a shit if you listen or not. Right? So that would be a narcissist, right? Is she that? I don't really feel like I'm in a position of authority to tell you if someone is a narcissist or not. Okay. Does your mother act in ways that benefit her regardless of whether it is enjoyable or positive for other people? And I'm not saying 100% but is there attendance? Not really. Okay. So that's good. So then we can at least conditionally eliminate that she doesn't care that you're not listening because she's just doing her thing. Okay. So so your consciousness is in her mind and what works or doesn't work for you is in her mind. She has a theory of mind that includes you and your preferences and your thoughts. She's she's empathetic. She's sensitive. She's thoughtful. To some degree, right? We all have it to some degree. So we can eliminate, you know, just bottomless selfishness from the possibilities. Is that fair to say? Yes. Okay. So then the question is,

52:49does she notice that you're not listening? And if the answer is yes, she notices that you're not listening, but she doesn't say anything. That's one path we can take. If she doesn't even notice that you're not listening, but it's not because of narcissism, then there is a certain lack of empathy that is not combined with brutal selfishness. So she's never pointed out that you have trouble listening, right? No. Okay. Now, is it part of what is called autism? I think it. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah. And especially because it's like ADHD traits of OK more bit with autism. And so I think like, yeah, inability to focus at least in some instances can be attributed to that. And also sensory processing. Yeah. It's, it could definitely, I think people definitely say it's related to autism.

53:50Okay. Got it. And the ADHD, which you have both, is that right? I'm not a 50 diagnosed of ADHD, but like 80% of autistic people have ADHD. It's kind of come, it comes in at class, the sort of, right. I definitely identify like diagnostic symptoms in myself. Okay. All right. And sorry, just remind me when you were diagnosed with the ADHD. Sorry, with the autism. Three years old. A three years of age, okay. And do you know what the symptoms were? And I'm sorry if we covered this last time, just to be able to keep a brief, do you know what the symptoms were that had your parents take you to be diagnosed with autism at the age of three? So I've seen some from the papers. It's really just my tendency not to interact with other children. I would prefer to do things on my own. And I will say suffered. Oh, hello. Then like I would like just,

54:51I'm so sorry, you just come out for, sorry, you just cut out for a second there. You said you suffered. And if you could just repeat that part. Oh, it's up from like sensory processing issues. So I have sensitivity to out noises and eat other mild sensory problems. And I also kind of have it of stemming. So like even now, like I have like something that I always like rolled around in my hands. And I've always done that. That's just, that's just a very classic trait. Yeah. So you fidget. Fidget. Yeah. You fidget and you prefer time alone and you're sensitive to stimuli. Is it? Oh, correct. Okay. Anything else? Yeah. I mean, just generally like even when I do try to socialize, I just struggle to pick up on social cues, struggle with eye contact. Yeah, those are really the main traits. And also like special interests. So like I would be interested in like one game and only one game. So like years on

55:58land and then it would change and it would just be one thing at a time. I would kind of hyperfixate on it. Yeah. That's another trait. Okay. Got it. Okay. So then do you think that your mother would say something like, well, I mean, he's got autism. So of course, he's going to have trouble concentrating or listening or following what I'm saying or something like that. I think it was just like accepted a bit, but that was how I was. But and I'm obviously not an expert in autism. So I apologize for not knowing this sort of stuff. But isn't it kind of the case that you're supposed to train people out of some of the negative effects? So let's say you have trouble listening. Aren't you supposed to train a kid who has trouble listening for whatever reason? Aren't you supposed to train a kid out of that and sort of remind them about listening and point out when they're not listening?

57:02You know things like that. I think different people have different opinions on that. I think a lot of what my my parents practice was like sort of like acceptance. So that's just how I am. Oh, so it's not over to change. And they, you know, they they they encouraged me to socialize and to yeah, you know, try and learn from social interactions. But I think really it was like they were okay with like, you know, me doing like my tactile stems right, fidgeting and stuff. But it was really like during, because this is a early childhood right when I was diagnosed. Like it was really in school where that was really kind of met with hostility. Like, you know, like just acting different to the other kids, you know, like took like talking to myself is actually a verbal stem like do some time as well. Like that was seen. That was met with hostility from both teachers and students. And so I really I think

58:09my parents they they were almost like kind of a bit less a fan of that really. Like, you know, they weren't like encouraging me particularly to go either way really. Okay, got it. I mean, and the reason I asked is well there's a bunch of reasons. One is that I have that there's people that I know who have an autistic child and the amount of work that has been done to help help deal with some of the the issues is prodigious. Yeah. I never really had a strong level of intervention. You could say. I think I'm sure I'm not sure what a strong this is part of the language that seems kind of easily to me. And I'm not calling you a weasel. It just seems like I don't know what a strong level of interaction. It's intervention. Yeah, like my parents never like like, you know,

59:11you're going to go to this autism, social skills, boot camp or anything like that. They they were never like kind of made me do anything like that. And I think really to be sad like at the time, I do remember I tried to I didn't want to be different. And so I really tried to distance myself from that label. And I just really tried tried by myself to mask and to like down by my autistic traits, even in front of my parents. And I still do that to this day in to varying degrees. And so I tried to deal with it myself even as a child. Right. Okay. But I mean, you were I guess diagnosed and so on, right? Yeah. And I didn't I didn't want to be because I didn't want to be different. Like I was just felt so I felt such a deep feeling of rejection from like knowing that I was just I just didn't fit in. Okay. So I just looked this up. Diagnosis at age three is

1:00:18still in a high impact window. The brain is highly plastic. And starting structured support right away is associated with better gains in language social communication, adaptive skills and later school outcomes than waiting. There is no quote, cure, but multiple evidence based approaches can produce core challenges, build skills, intensity, consistency and family involvement matter more than any single brand of therapy. And so I won't go through all of the it goes on and on. But so I registered with this referred to preschool speech and language infant child development immediately after diagnosed a condition of pediatrician for written summary of current skills and recommended priorities start parent coaching and get them into the issues and the issue resultment or minimization and so on. So at the age of three, as I said, the brain is so other say the brain is plastic. There's lots of so strong interventions. Hey, are amazing. I wouldn't say miraculous because

1:01:21that's a bit of a loaded word. But I'm trying to sort of figure out if your parents, I mean, it sounds like and I don't want to obviously put words in their mouths or anything, but it sounds a little bit like they were like, well, you know, kids are just sick. So we'll just work with that. And again, maybe there were more interventions that I'm aware of. But so, so to listen more details, what happened from what I'm from what I've been told is that there were some interventions, like they tried to look for like support groups. And I think I did have some applied behavioral therapy. I wouldn't call it early on, but I was too young to remember that. And I think really what kind of stopped that level of intervention continuing was that I was learning at a normal rate. And so like on paper, I was kind of seen as like being functioning enough. But yeah, like that

1:02:25detail sort of, you know, they come intense kind of continued support wasn't necessary. And I think other people kind of, you know, like my, my, my, you know, my parents or I want to family look for, okay, well, if he's, you know, if he's like kind of getting through like, you know, like learning and stuff like, okay, then that's just who he is now. Really, you know, and it's kind of exactly that. Yeah, he's just, he's autistic, but he's like, he's high punching now. And is that the decision that your parents have the right to make? That's a very deep moral philosophy. No, it's not really. I think that's not, no, it's not, no, it's not because they're not experts in autism. So do your parents have the right to say you don't need any more intervention because you're doing okay in school? I say no. No, of course not. Of course not. Don't have the right to say that because you're 28 and how are things going for your relationship wise? Right. So were they right?

1:03:32No, no, they weren't catastrophically wrong. How the fuck did they have the right to say, oh, he's learning math, he'll be fine. We don't need any more intervention. He's good. Because I guarantee you, or I virtually guarantee you, that if they went to an autism specialist and say he's good at math, does he need any more intervention after the age of three or four? What would they say? They would say he will benefit from it. Right? Yeah. So how do they have the right to say when you don't need any more intervention regarding autism? Yeah. And it's one thing if they roll the dice and say, hey, he doesn't need any more intervention and you turn out fine. Okay, good. I guess they accidentally made a good decision. But to take an extreme example, if you had a childhood cancer and you went through, I don't know, a couple of rounds of chemo and radiation or whatever and

1:04:37it sort of went into remission and they said, well, that's fine. He doesn't need any more treatment. He doesn't need any lifestyle changes. He'll be just going to go back to business as usual. Now, if the cancer doesn't come back, okay, I guess they kind of accidentally made a good decision. But if they went back to the oncologist, the oncologist says, oh, when you need to do this, that, the other and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then they didn't do that. That's a whole thing. But if they don't even go to the oncologist and ask and then the cancer comes back, they've made a pretty catastrophic decision if I understand the situation correctly. But it really does. It does seem to be a good analogy to the situation. Because you're pushing 30, no days, no girlfriends, social life's a problem, and who knows what could have been possible in the brain plasticity at three, five, seven, ten, who knows? It certainly would be better. So I don't quite understand how your parents get to

1:05:37make that decision for you that you don't need any more help. I mean, what do they think? of your life and their decision? Well, they know that I suffer from feelings of shame, feelings of loneliness now. And they know that I treat a lot of that to my autism. Yeah, I think they are aspects of my life that I can be proud of and that they kind of try and just play that up. And they just don't really... I can say a lot about this, but yeah, they know that I feel like a failure, but they say they kind of say, but I can go into more detail if you want. So if you feel like a failure, they say, well, no, you're not.

1:06:45Yeah, they say stuff like, oh, everyone has a different path in life. Right? Like, oh, my mum always says like her best friend never had a husband and had a family or anything. And that's just her life. And some people do, some people don't. And some people have loads of friends, fast-paced, high-end in career, and some people don't. And it's just people different. Are you about that? That's what they tell me now. So they're passive? Yes. Shit happens. It's nothing you can do. Yeah. Yeah, it's just how life times out for some people really is. It's what they say. And what do you think? I try and believe that because... No, I think you believe what you think. How's that? Yeah. I think it's bullshit, really. Yeah.

1:07:45Like, there are better lives than there are bad lives, right? There are winners and there are losers. And being, you know, like, I've had relationships at least, but like, going to rest of my life without a relationship, or even worse, never having had a relationship at all. Like, that would be really sad, and for me, and really horrible, and stuff like that, you know, like, like, never having any friends to talk to would be sad, at least, like, never having the option, you know, for someone to socialise with, and things like that. Like, I know deep down, that that's like, that that is at least an emotional problem for me, and also like, yeah, as I go old, you know, if I have no connections, it's just going to get worse and worse. Like, I know that deep down. Okay. Great. And this does not view this any kind of emergency

1:08:48by your parents, it's just, well, we're all trains on different train tracks, and that's how it is. So they're determinists. Maybe they wouldn't really, they don't know those, like, they don't use, like, philosophical linguistics like that. They're talking about practice. Yeah, yeah, and practice. Yeah. I mean, they will sometimes say things like, oh, life is what you made it, but when they say that, they really are using the context of like, like, like, attitude, like, like, like, how they're, how to feel about the situation you're in. Oh, they're saying it is, there's nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Mm-hmm. Okay. So Stefan, I'm really sorry. Could we pause just for one minute? Yeah, no problem. Yeah, I just need to, no, no problem. Go ahead. Thank you. Sure, go ahead. Um, so, yeah, um, you were saying about, um, yeah, like, that my parents are determinists,

1:09:53because they say that, um, we're all on different trains, and it really doesn't matter, right? If, um, if like, you don't do certain things in life, right? Um, and I guess it almost feels like we're steering back to the thing I, I was trying to start the conversation out with a guy about things like anti-natalism and, you know, like, relationship problems and stuff, right? Um, yeah, that's really how they, um, kind of see it. Um, but they just think, oh, life just, life just pans out differently to different people. Um, and I've always, I've always been skeptical about, but, yeah, I, I, I'm guilty of trying, like, trying to kind of cope with it in a way of, because, to honest, it's like kind of thinking that, okay, maybe this is just how things have to be right, like, determinism, as you say. Um, maybe that's like the only, yeah, but that kind of helps me

1:10:54to get through the day to the list, um, rather than just having this cloud hanging over me all the time, I'm a failure. Right. Okay. So in your parents' lives, do you see any evidence of willpower making things happen, refusal to back down these kinds of things? I do see some, yeah. Um, I'm, I'm so like my, my, my dad worked, worked full time for, most of the, like, pretty much his entire adult life, really. Um, and I suppose he's always used to that, as like, as in like setting an example of like, oh, you know, working hard, right, to kind of get we won and like, you know, be a breadwinner and stuff. Um, and we're, with, with my mom, I guess. Um, she's, I don't know, I mean, there is, there is best kind of, they do both have a little bit of this,

1:12:00like, almost like the hippie, but yeah, some people would say that hippie is really, um, in like, that kind of mentality of like, just kind of wanting to travel and stuff, um, I don't really know. I'm going with this, sorry. Oh, no, that's fine. Can you remind me do you have siblings? I have one sister. Okay. And how's she doing? She's doing all right, actually. Yeah. Um, she, she has her own place, although it was effective, you know, it was, it was like, or it was like, the money was given to her to buy it. So it was an exactly rags to riches. But um, yeah, she has that, and she does, she does have her own insecurities and my mum always says that to me. Um, good, she, she comes across as very arrogant when you talk to her, like she'll kind of, the first thing she'll do is like brag about like, oh, this new thing she bought, or stuff like that, and really try and,

1:13:04try and big herself up, if you know what I mean. Um, so yeah, she's, she's doing better than me, for sure. But um, yeah, still, still not perfect. But she didn't get any of the same diagnoses, right? No, no, no. Okay, got it, got it. And where do you live? Uh, you're my address. No, no, sir. Do you live at home? Do you live on your own? Oh, yeah. Um, yes, yeah, yeah, outside. Anyway, sorry, go on. Yeah, yeah. It's a bit, it's a bit free to make me two experiences about to unfurl. Yeah, so, uh, I do, uh, yeah, live at home. Um, yeah. Okay. And do your parents, uh, what do they want for you? And what have they expressed that they want for you with your life? Or is it pretty much whatever unfolds unfolds? Just one need to be happy. But that's what they say. Yeah, it's just generic nonsense. I mean, specifically, they don't, they don't like expectations that they have. You know, not expectations. I mean,

1:14:07if they want you to be happy and you say being in a romantic relationship would make me happy, then they would want you to be in a romantic relationship. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So, this is actually something I've talked about with um, uh, recently and really, this is, this does kind of, um, yeah, it links up to one of the things that we, you know, one of the problems I had for a cool today. And I've kind of told them that a lot of the kind of desire that I perceive to be in a relationship does come from like it, you know, the societal expectation, but it's what to do. And, you know, that I feel, I feel ashamed if I'm going to a restaurant on my own. Um, you know, I feel ashamed if I'm any person in the room who's not in a couple, you know, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, so is it your perception that things like last or a desire for acceptance

1:15:12by others is okay, what percentage of that is built in and what percentage of that is a social convention just roughly. Mm-hmm. I would say it's probably about 80% social convention from, from why they identified and 20% like kind of built in. So it's a bit of both, for sure. Yeah, I'm obviously there's no way to know these. For certain, yeah, I was absolutely convinced you'd say 80% genetic. Mm-hmm. Okay, let me ask you this, lust, the desire for sex. Yeah, right? The urge to get laid. Mm-hmm. How much of that would you say is genetic or hormonal? Mm-hmm. I would say, yeah, I would say very close to 100%. Right. Okay. So yes, of course, and we know this because when people have hormonal issues, their desire for sex dissipates, right? There are some people who are asexual and they decide to put an appendage in a hole. I mean,

1:16:14we don't have these mad urges to go stick our fingers up, people's noses, right? Or our elbows in their ear. Okay, now people. Well, no, but I mean, that would be obviously a disarm fetish, right? So, so the the last thing and we all remember that day where girls go from being like, oh, just shoot, just just to have to play baseball with this because she's not very good to like, girls, girls, girls, right? They just become that sort of mad. It is, it's a truly mad. Socrates were pointed out like that because he was 70, like being free of lust is like being free of a demon. And I'm not sure I'd quite put it in the demonic face, but it can be a challenge. So so last, the desire for a girlfriend, the desire for touch, the desire for intimacy, and I don't just mean sexual intimacy, but you know, intimacy at all. That is absolutely for very obvious reasons, which we're all easily smart enough to not need explicating baked into our genetics, right? Yes. Okay. Now, have you ever had a dog?

1:17:17Yes. Okay. Have you ever had a cat? Right. What are the differences? Cats come running down the hallway wagging their tail and jumping up on you when you come home. No. I mean, you're lucky if they notice you're alive. If they need something, they'll see need feed. Yeah. Right. Have you ever had a dog or seen a dog or known of a dog who's indifferent to their owner? No. Right. Have you ever heard of a cat that you can train to do complex tricks? I can be pedantic, but generally, no. No, in general. I mean, there's exceptions, right? These are the exceptions to truth. The rule. We remember them because they're exceptions. Yes. So what's the difference? Is it social or genetic? It's genetic. Right. And the difference is, of course, as you know, the dogs are herd animals or pack animals and cats, the solitary, except for the mating thing, right? Yeah. Okay. So

1:18:20we solitary or social animals. Sorry, sure. Right. So that means all of our hard wiring is there to get along with the tribe, to have allies within the tribe, to mate within the tribe, to pair bond within the tribe because our children cannot survive without pair bonding, without a mother and a father to provide a threat, most of our evolution. Right. There is, I do some part that there are theories that autism is, so that's like evolutionary divergence, kind of leaning more towards the solitary. Well, here's the interesting thing, the interesting thing, which is sort of undergirdic this, and I came into this very consciously in the conversation. I mean, you feel very different, I think, in terms of listening and talking in this part of the conversation as opposed to the first five or 10 minutes, right? Yeah. And you know what the difference is? It's really interesting. I sort of got about this for quite a bit of time before entering into the conversation.

1:19:22And sort of remembering our conversation prior, I said, I wonder if I don't treat him as if he has autism, I wonder if he's still going to have autism. So I'm sorry, sorry, go ahead. That's sorry, I'm sorry, I was just asking. So I refused to lower my standards because you have autism. And I didn't sit there and say, well, it's kind of unfair for me to ask if he knows what I just said because because the poor young fellow has autism. And so, right? And so he can't concentrate. And maybe he's got a touch of ADHD too. So he's distracted. Maybe there's a butterfly outside, the window. Maybe there's a shadow going across the wall. Maybe he just noticed a hang nail. He can't possibly focus on what I'm saying because of all of these cluster of mental blah, blah, I was just like, no, I'm going to treat you like I treat everyone else. How's it going? I think it took a lot of set of lin but it's going smoothly now.

1:20:27Now, if somebody was just listening to part right before this, to our back and forth about complex issues and all of that, would they say, oh, this guy's totally autistic? I really don't like that. They would, I would assume no, no, they would. Now, obviously, I'm not saying that autism is not a real thing. I'm not saying that at all. Right? So I get that there are people who are in continent, they can't brush their teeth, they're like, so I'm not trying to say anything about like, oh, autism is not real or any, so I just really want to be clear about that. Yeah. I do agree. And yeah, thanks. Sorry. I do agree. And even though I kind of acknowledge it and I point it out, I definitely do attribute a lot of the difficulties people with my phenotype, if you like, have to cultural context. And that is just, yeah, even when my mom said about,

1:21:30oh, it's different kind of, like that definitely is some of that. Well, they use the word called eccentric. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or quirky or a bit of an art ball, or I mean, Lord knows I've had all of these terms as well as autism, or to me, over the course of my life, and I definitely not in the normal swing of things. Yeah. So go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I definitely agree. I think it's just like in practice and like kind of how society has gone over the years, it's made it made it kind of difficult to, to fit in right. And there's so many people around you have so many social interactions every day now. And when they're like, I'm not really kind of equipped to, you know, I just, I just not cut out. Okay. So like you and I, you and sorry to interrupt you and I are having just about the most complex social interactions as possible, which is one of mine. It's one on one. So it's very different. Well, in general, all social interactions are one on one.

1:22:33I mean, if you're a party, if you're at a party, you're only talking to one person at a time. If you're at a dinner party, you're only talking to one person usually at a time, or if you're talking to the whole table, then one person is replying. It's not everyone talking at the same time. So even in a social situation, it's generally one person talking and one person replying, because if everyone talks and replies at the same time, it's just a, it's a babble, right? It's not a social engagement. Yeah, but it's very still a difference. I would argue. Of course, of course, but what I'm saying is that if you can do the most complex social interaction, and it could be that you're more of a one on one person, and that's so leafy. There's nothing wrong with that at all. It's not a problem. It's not a pathology. It's like being introverted or being extroverted. I mean, extroverts get annoyed with introverts because they're, they view them as an energy drag, and introverts get annoyed at extroverts because it's like, can you just shut up? You don't have to be the center of attention all the time. So there is those annoyances and introversion and extroversion

1:23:38are both very important for the tribe, which is why both types have survived in human consciousness, in the same way that you need people who are very conscientious and you need people who are less conscientious, very conscientious societies like sort of ancient China don't tend to progress and societies with too little conscientiousness. I think it's sort of Jamaican family lack of formation, tend not to progress for other reasons. So this is usually some sweet spot in the middle. So it could be that you're more of a one on one person, but if you look at the fluidity and frankly brilliance with which you're conducting yourself over the course of this very challenging conversation like you you took some coaching, you you adjusted your behavior, we're plumbing the the depths of your own unconscious motivations, we're trying to figure out what's going on with your mom, like this is all very deep and complex stuff and you're doing fantastically. Thank you. And there are many and most people could not do this conversation. Hmm. I have had people say this to me before. Sorry, but like yeah, it's like,

1:24:45whatever, like when I've had like even as a child and I had I had one on one conversations with people, they would be like, oh wow, he like talks like with, I know just like sounds like I know, sounds like I'm blowing my intro, but like sophistication, like kind of years, I remember like my grandad who passed like he said, but I had a conversation with you the other day, it was like I was, you were only like 15 bits, like I was talking with a 30 year old, like you had so many things to say. And so I know I do have my strengths where it comes to conversations, but it really is just like situational, you know. Okay, again, I can't judge you outside of the situations in which you and I are embroiled, but in the situations in which you and I are embroiled, the fluidity and perception and depth and accuracy of your thought processes and conversation, it's very impressive. So that is, I thank you because it does make the conversation a whole lot easier and better. And so what if, what if so if I ignore your autism, you

1:25:53and I ignore your ADHD, you become quite a lot less autistic and less ADHD. Does that make sense? Anything? So what if you do that too? And I expect similar result. Well, it's possible, isn't it? Like if you're missing an arm and I don't know, let's say you're missing two arms, you're missing both of your arms, right? Yeah. And I treat you as if you have both arms and I throw you a ball to catch, right? Mm-hmm. Me pretending that you have two arms does not have you have two arms, right? Look, however, when I came into this conversation saying, I am not going to take his autism into account at all. And you rise to the occasion and we're having an infinitely better conversation now than we did at the beginning. And of course, not listening, you could say, oh, I said, but the reason I don't listen is because I have autism and I have ADHD and blah, blah, blah, now to your credit, you didn't do that, right? Which I think was because you needed the life

1:26:58rough. You needed the the floaty. So if I treat you as if you are normal and what I mean by normal, it's not average, right? I'm I'm I'm normal, but I'm not average. So normal just means is able to function well in a conversation. And so on. And it could be, of course, a lot of times people think they have ADHD when they're just playing board because most people conversation is crushingly dull. Futee, the weather sports, you know, and political shit. And like most people's, oh, did you know, did you hear it? There was a there was a grandmother and people used to like, they would say her little bit of ham, little bit of toast, right? So so how was your day? Oh, it was a little bit of ham, little bit of toast. And that's like that's it. It's like, okay, like shoot me now, right? Because that that level of conversation is, I mean, it's okay once in a while, we all it's fine, but

1:28:03but the conversations that matter are the ones with sort of deep imports and some, you know, really depth and honesty and curiosity and, and you know, getting to know each other, all that kind of stuff, right? So I mean, small talk is small minds and it's really boring. And yeah, if your parents, I mean, I don't mean to diss your parents and, you know, maybe I'm wrong about this, but they sound like a giant bag of fortune cookies. Like it's like for every conceivable question, they have a mind numbing cliche. Yeah. Well, people's lives are different. Oh, thanks, socrates. Appreciate that. No idea that people's lives are different. Everybody has their own path. That's like, what's that exactly? What they say? I know. I was listening. I was listening. It sounds like for every possible question, or, you know, well, I had a friend she never got married and blah, blah, blah, I said, what does that have to do with anything? Maybe that was a mistake. Everybody's lives are

1:29:05a little different. Oh, wow. Thank you. Next thing you're going to tell me that not everyone is the same height. Wow. That's brilliant stuff, right? So it sounds like your parents are NPCs and you're a thinker. I'm not trying to, you know, praise you, but smoking your ass, I'm not just based on what you've told me. Your parents are NPCs. They just have cliches, input output, programmed, programmed. And if you are a ravenously curious person, and if heaven forbid, you are one of the few people who can take coaching in this world, you didn't just hang up on me when I pointed out that when you said, I'm doing my best, it wasn't really true, you know, on all of that, right? No, because most people get real happy when you point out that they're bullshitting you, right? And listen, it happens to all of us. So I always hope that I'm not, oh, you should join me in my angelic perfectionist. Like, no, no, that's not who I am. And that's not, you know, we're all down here in the trenches just trying to get through no man's land. So, so you took

1:30:10coaching and you took it beautifully and you responded well. And, you know, you were defensive, which is common. We do, we all do it. You overcame it. We had a great conversation, but having a great conversation. So maybe, maybe you're just in an environment where you're crushingly undistimulated at home. You say your sister's kind of shallow and brags about her purchases. You know, I would, I would, I would people are just like, yeah, most people are just input, output, they have vanity monkeys, they're status apes, they're just cliche generators. And the moment, anything original comes along, they feel uncomfortable and they bury it in boredom. So, Sarah, I have tried in the past to change my environment. Right. So I went, I went to the university, I went to a really high ranked university, actually. And I thought like, oh, there's going to be all these smart people around, right? And they're going to be, yeah, like, maybe five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that's the thing. I realized it's like, I got really,

1:31:12I was really shocked, you know, and it's like, bezel just blue had nose rings everywhere, who just, you know, I've asked conformist as the general population, if not worse. And so I, like, people who are curious, as you say, right? They seem really few and far between. And this is something I want to point out, right? But like, it just seems like you live in a world full of zombies, really like, like, like, I mean, like, I'll be cryptic in case you're putting us up to YouTube, whatever, but like, you know, from some, and a big event, probably the event happened a few years ago, right? Like, I saw like 90% of the people at least just blindly went along with everything the media said. You know, I'm talking about, right? Safe and effective. How have you questioned it? Yeah. The people who stand to make tens of billions of dollars have told you it's safe and effective. And it's safe and effective. We only tested it for two or three months and we're hiding the data. And we demand absolute immunity from liability. But don't worry, it's safe and effective. Yeah. Exactly. And everyone just,

1:32:13like, it seems like everyone went along with it. And it's what's left is a tiny, tiny minority. And yeah, like, ever since then, especially like that really was like a big stepping point for me and just feeling totally like, all these people walking around, like, are they really like thinking about stuff? You know, I just done that really definitely like, kind of, yeah, it was just a tiny, like a watershed moment, if you like, really for me. I just saw that and I probably, yeah. So, yeah, I've tried to change my environment. And like, I do have like a small group of like friends, mostly online, you know, but like we question these hangs and, you know, like the demographic situation in Western countries, if you know what I mean, right? Like stuff like that, like we can see it all happening. And even when I go outside, you know, I go to the grocery store and I see, like, wait, why is this twice the price it was a year ago? And like, why is everyone just on their

1:33:16phones all the time? Like, I don't know. Like, it just, it really, it just feels like a clown world to be honest. And in a way, I almost, I know, like, part of me takes a bit of comfort in that. But, you know, it does feel cool to kind of be like one of the only people who's kind of like, can see through all the bullshit, really. But at the same time, it's kind of, I know, yeah, I just, I feel lonely and I'm lost. I devoid of hope, really, because I thought like, like, in reason with people and, you know, at least find my own community. But I just, yeah, I've never really found that. Sorry, I'm rambling. No, that's totally fine. That's totally fine. Yeah. Now, yeah, what if you tried living as if you didn't have dysfunction? I had tried that before. Okay. Go on. Yeah. I mean, like, really, it was ever since the event a

1:34:21few years ago. I'm like, I guess, yeah, more than like six years ago. Before that, really, I did, like I was kind of saying, like, I had, I'll have right now, like, I had this hope, you know, that like, my society was kind of normal and healthy. And with, I know, like, left this stuff that's been happening, like, that's just a, like, just a phase that people, that civilizations in and all that, right? Like, I thought that and I, I never really used my diagnosis, like, to kind of get to navigate the world, like, in fact, until, like, up until then, really, like, I had to kind of just try to ignore it and distance myself from it as much as possible. But what I found was, it just wasn't working. I, like, I was like always, like, subtly, like, failing to pick up on social cues. And, like, you know, I wasn't politically correct enough. I'd say the wrong thing. I'd notice too much. And, yeah, you know, like, I would have sporadic friendships, maybe if you, like,

1:35:25girls here and there, but not really much, you know, and I just kind of, it just seemed like it wasn't working. See, nothing was working. Right. Right. Well, and so you would meet people then you wouldn't talk about the autism or the ADHD, is that right? No, I would never mention it. Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. And how long did you go through that process for? Both, like, hiding it, between a height of, um, about 10 years, really, from, from, like, 10 to 20, really, years old. Okay. And sorry. And you, you did do dating in that timeframe? Not in that timeframe. It was actually after I kind of, so I'm so happy to be dating without talking about the autism or the ADHD or the other things. I have. Okay. And to have Nekka. Not really very well, because I just don't really have, like,

1:36:32I tried to, like, use the apps and like, you get matches and stuff. And then I kind of, I was like, why am I on the apps? Like, because I want to use people with these apps, you know? And, and now I tried that and I tried, like, um, hobby groups and stuff. And just if, if, like, I don't mention it, like, I just, why is get cross? Like, if someone shows interest in me, like, this is up in a few times, right? Someone has shown interest in me. And it's either being, like, they were like, they just wanted attention or maybe they knew I was a bit weird and they were doing as a joke. Um, so the only relationships I've had have actually been with, um, autistic, uh, women, um, who knew I was autistic, probably to entering the relationship. Um, so yeah, um, took that kind of, this useful information. Okay. And how many dates did you go on over this time, dude? When I didn't disclose my, yeah, diagnosed it. Uh, I'm free. Really? That's all I managed to get. Okay. And on those dates, did you have any

1:37:35second dates? Like, and were the dates that did you want to have second dates or no? Yeah. To be honest, I mean, just through, yeah, like, like natural impulse, right? Yeah. I was like, yeah, I want to see you again, kind of. Yeah. Okay. Got it. And the, the women did not want to have more dates, is that right? Mm-hmm. Friends owned. Yeah. All dated. And what is your income? income. Yeah. In total, um, about 1200 pounds a month, so I think in Canadian, I'd be a bit more older. Yeah. So it's below average. I don't even work full time. Okay. But, but you have a job, um, but you don't work full time, right? Yeah. I mean, I also do get, um, some, like, um, some, um, money for my autism as well, that tops up. Sorry. Okay. Got it. Like, not really any reason to. And so, um, would you want your wife to stay home with your children?

1:38:41Yeah. Okay. And so how can she stay home with your children if you don't make much? Yeah. So she couldn't, right? And I do have, I do have quite a lot of assets, actually. And this is, I do have had actually is, but like, I could actually buy quite a lot of land and start my own, build my own house and stuff and, but you have a, but you happened to your 28. So that would be a project that you would have to do. What with babies in the house? Yeah. And babies in the house with no walls and half a roof. Well, I guess some walls and half a roof. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I don't, but like, the tree fizz, but nowadays, like, it just seems that, like, women, like, mothers always like work. And that's just expected, you know, like, well, okay. But if you and your wife work, who's going to take care of your kids? Yeah. I mean, I don't know. And like, this is

1:39:46why your parents, the NPCs or daycare or something, right? Or her parents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, grandparents and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So if you, sorry, go ahead. So sorry. Um, no, I was, what I was going to say was going to like predict what you were going to say. So I'll, I'll just let you go ahead. I'm probably okay. So why would a woman? And I say this with no prejudice, this is not like, but you're on the market, right? Yeah. You're on the market, right? So you are offering your firm and you being a provider and a protector, you are offering these to a woman, right? And what is on offer? What does a woman see when she goes on a date with you? And if you are interested in in being a father and being a husband and having children and so on, let's say that that's, let's say she's interested, then what does she see? And you, well,

1:40:47she doesn't see my wage slip on the first day. So how would I have any, like, um, determination of why I would get friends on Google ghosted? Sorry. Do you not think that women have developed an instinct as to whether guys are successful or not? I mean, that's basically what they have to do. Well, like, what in a, in a way that's not like strictly like, eugenic. What do you mean? I mean, well, like, like, you know, like, like, like, it's like, oh, this guy's got like, detecting this guy, got crap jeans. So he doesn't have a little money. Like, I don't really see how they could tell, have, have a, like, accurately determine someone's income, at least not necessarily. Because I, I don't really think I present myself as a, or person, but also what, what you bring up, like, I just tangentially, like, this does kind of like, I always have the cynicism about relationships. It's like, the women are just after like, money. And like, I've been told by people that you shouldn't just like, you know, you shouldn't just like be with someone because they want your money,

1:41:49right? And if you do, then like, I mean, you know, it's like, it just seems like what's even a point in a relationship that's like, okay, sorry, I just want to make sure that I'm efficient at the end here. So that's just kind of bullshit cynicism. And you don't want to get wrapped up in that stuff. And I'll sort of tell you why. So if you want to just start a family, would you date a woman who's 50? No. No, because she can't have kids. So, oh, the only thing that men want is eggs. Right? Now, if a woman wants to stay home with her children, if a woman wants to stay home with her children, can she date a brokeie? Yes. No, she can't. Yeah. Yeah. Now, actually, Stefan, in, in UK, you can, because everyone just, everyone just like, is unemployed and goes on benefits, and the state pays her everyone's kids. And it's easy. I'm going out to work to be honest. All right. So she can, she can date you with your income, and she just goes on a welfare. Okay.

1:42:53And that's, and I understand that that's a thing. And I also understand why there's that demographic thing that goes along with that and so on. Right? Okay. So she can date you, even if you're broke, because you'll just go cancel flats, welfare, food stamps, like whatever the, the, the conflagration is, right? I prefer to clear. Yeah. Okay. Got it. So she doesn't care if you make money. She cares that you will be a good husband and a good father, right? Yeah. Okay. Got it. All right. So will you be a good husband and a good father? Obviously, you could be in that situation because you're showing your children, but actually, like, you know, you can actually like play the system if you like, I don't know, not you're a provider, but yet that the government can be the provider. But will you be a good husband and a good father? Well, you're not providing more present. You'd be more present, right?

1:43:54No, no, if you're present and a bad father, then being present is a negative. I mean, you would be not with your wife. Yeah, sorry. What would make that person necessarily a bad father in that situation? Well, so the first thing that a woman will look for is do you want to be a father? Right? So if a woman wants to get married and you say, I don't know, I'm not sure if I really want to get married, I'm not sure if marriage means anything. It's just a piece of paper blah blah blah blah blah blah. And then she goes on another date with a guy who says, oh, I can't wait to get married. I think marriage is the greatest institution ever. Who's she going to date? The guy who aligns with her goals? Yeah, it's the same thing with kids. If a woman wants to have kids, then she's going to want to date a guy who's very keen on having kids. Now, if you don't want to have kids, that's fine. Then you just get a different kind of woman, right? Yeah. And then you get an art woman because the default position for humanity for millions of years has been to have children

1:44:57because otherwise we wouldn't be here, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, a biological imperative. Yeah. So if there's a woman around who doesn't want to have kids, it is very much a deviation from all the chain of life going back four billion years, which means something very bad in general has happened to her. Hmm, right? Yeah. So it's the same thing for men, men want to have children. I mean, I think women want a little bit more, which is why men have a higher sex drive and then women get monogamy because of the capture of the sex drive through marriage and so on. Yeah. So in general, if you want to date a woman who doesn't want to have kids, usually something really tragic and awful that's unprocessed has to happen to her. And okay, so you get a woman who doesn't want to have kids, but in general, you're also going to get a woman who's got a lot of trauma and problems. One point I would make on that, though, Stefan, you do make great point, but like sometimes human behavior and incentives does miss much evolution, right? Because like, you know, like people

1:46:00still like having unprotected sex if someone's on like a birth control pill or something, or even having sex with like condoms, right? Even like it feels really good, even though it's not going to produce a child and like even know that person. No, sorry. What does that have to do with evolution? Because we didn't evolve. I'm saying that like birth control. We didn't evolve with condoms and birth control. No, no, but I'm saying that like the way that, yeah, as humans have evolved, like as the environment changes, where can be certain deviations from behavior that is directly conducive to reproducing more people. Yes, but birth control does not control whether a woman wants to have children. It simply controls when she has the children. Yeah, but a guy who still feels happy if he has sex with someone on birth control every day, as I suppose he has someone who hasn't had a birth control every day. That's not responsive to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that women who don't want to have

1:47:00children are almost certainly traumatized and the trauma is unprocessed. And so I think I think all this is not relevant to that. Okay. That's a clarify. Yeah, no, no, no, I'm so I mean, I guess you just have to decide whether you want to have children. And one of the pluses, of course, I think being a parent is the most wonderful thing around. And so I've said, it made my case for that a million times. And if you don't want to have children, you will most likely be surrounded by broken people who are oddballs because the default and healthy position for humanity is to have children. Okay. And so if you choose not to have children, you are choosing to spend your life around broken people who are oddballs. And that's one of the one of the side benefits of having children is you get to spend your time around people who love having children, who love life, who enjoy parenting. And they tend to be pretty healthy kinds of people. And then he can't see. It's obviously an exception to that.

1:48:07You hear like these stories, right? If people just, he do that, right? And then they get stuck on child support. They have other problems, right? And I guess that's used to put people like me off. Sure. And you hear of people who go go for a drive and crash. Yeah. And you hear people who go swim at the beach and get eaten by sharks. Yeah. And you hear stories of people who go to take the garbage, slip down the steps and die. And you hear and you hear and you hear, right? But we have to take our odds, right? Yeah. So, you know, kind of weigh up those risks more sensibly. Sure. And praise the crumbs. Sure. Yeah. I mean, you can choose not to have kids, of course, right? And if you choose not to have kids, then you save some money, you save some time. But then you end up surrounded by other people who don't want kids, and they're basically broken

1:49:10oddballs with some exceptions. They're basically broken oddballs and that's kind of depressing. And then when you get older, you'll be mostly alone and so on. And you don't get grandkids. And then you don't have anyone around when you're old, which is quite tragic and sad and all kinds of things. So, yeah. So, this is just costs and benefits. And I obviously can't weigh those costs and benefits for you. But if, I mean, you're a very strong will guy and a very intelligent guy and a very good communicator when you get yourself sorted, as they say, England. So, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, if you choose that you want to have kids, then you'll take the necessary steps to have kids. And, you know, one of those steps will be to not be living at home when you're pushing 30, because that signals some pretty negative things and over involvement. And then, of course, if you're still living at home when you're pushing 30, then the problem is that the woman is going to meet your parents and say, okay, these guys are going to be deeply and heavily

1:50:14involved in my life. And they're going to say, is that what I want? And I would imagine that's a cultural norm. I'm sorry. But people always say that it's a bit of a cultural kind of anomaly and race, right? They're in the Western world since the late 20th century, right? That's been a norm to move up home in your late teens or early 20s. Because like most cultures around the world, that's not really a thing, right? In Southern Europe, like in my several, like, this is how you live in Southern Europe. No, but I've kind of lived with where you are and you live with the standards that you are. Yeah. I mean, it's like saying, well, Lindsay Clancy saying, well, of course, I sacrificed my children to the voices in my head. What's wrong with that? The Aztecs did it all the time. Hmm. Are you living in the Aztec world? You are not. So, if they're going to go with where you want. Now, listen, I'm so sorry. I have to stop here because I have another call who's waiting. So I will stop here and certainly have a chat again. Really hugely great conversation.

1:51:15I really do appreciate your dedication to continuing the chat and so on. So yeah, I just invite to say, well, what if I'm just normal? I mean, there's a little bit you can gaslight yourself into some amazing things. Like I can just say, I'm going to be the greatest philosopher in history. And, whether I am or not, it's not up to me, but I can certainly, it increases my odds. Should I give that? So you can gaslight yourself and say, well, what if I'm just eccentric or what if I'm just really smart and surrounded by NPCs? And maybe there's nothing wrong with me if I don't think there is. So give that a try. Thank you. You're welcome, brother. I hope you're staying in touch. I really appreciate the conversation today. Yeah, I will do. All right. Okay.