620: Husband Still Drinking? Stop Trying to Fix Him and Do This Instead

0:00Are you beyond frustrated with your husband who is an alcoholic in no matter what you say, no matter what you do? It seems like he's just not going to get sober. Well, in this episode, we're going to be discussing why putting the plug in the jug and just not drinking. Doesn't even solve everything now. It's a good place to start and we're going to talk a little bit about how he can get there. But also, what does he do next and you as his spouse, you need to be prepared for this sobriety journey if it's something that he ever goes on. Now, myself and Ben, we've worked with thousands of families over the span of 15 years and we've navigated these exact situations with families to a T. So we want to prepare you for what's to come. Enjoy the show. Wives out there, I posted a couple of reels on Instagram and they've gone viral for me, you know, and it's brought about a thousand new followers just in the last week, but it's all women that are so angry and frustrated at their husbands.

1:08Some of them have gotten divorced. Some of them are on the brink of divorce. Some of them are hanging on by a thread. And, you know, so I think we need to talk about like, you know, that not only from a family member loved one perspective, but also just because we get sober doesn't mean that we become nice people and productive people, you know, sometimes in fact, sober people, if not gone about appropriately, become more angry and more less desirable to be around. Yeah, the thing about that dynamic too is you have two people that are dependent on rather than having a dependent like your parent, you got a child and alcoholism or active addiction, you got two people that were supposed to build a life together and depend on each other. And now like, so it changes the dynamic where like someone who's supposed to be your contributing partner, not your child. And that's where I think a lot of the anger comes from in frustration. Yeah, so I think a good place to start for this would be why do alcoholics even like when we think of the term alcoholic a lot of times people associate an alcoholic with like living underneath of a bridge.

2:23You know, carrying around a brown paper bag type situation homeless or, you know, but the truth is is that alcoholism can be amongst any family. And, you know, understanding why people drink the way that they drink, I think is a good at least foundational part because it plays in everything else. I know from my perspective with working with families a lot of times one of the messages that I try to portray to them is alcohol is their solution to things. It's not. They're not doing it just because I mean they're doing it because they like the way that it makes them feel. But it's ultimately their solution when they're angry they drink when we're happy we drink when we're sad we drink when the day ends and why we drink we find any excuse in the book to drink. Develops and alcoholism is our number one coping skill for absolutely everything.

3:24So it makes sense if it's our solution to everything if it's our solution to all of our thoughts feelings and emotions that we have on a daily basis you remove that our solution. What do you have left you have an angry frustrated, you know, person, you know, so I mean we have to start there and understand why people drink in general the way that they do. You all throw this out there too and it really seeps over to the spouse or the loved one where like they end up all the same things angry frustrated, etc. And I just want to throw this out there real quick before we move forward is like I want to say very clearly people that are affected by active alcoholism and addiction. And my opinion have every right to be angry for the consequences that they're suffering as a result of the actions of their loved one that's that's actively drinking drugging whatever the case is or even if they just got sober in that person still a jerk.

4:29Like that you have every right to be angry but moving towards a solution like take a step back and say like okay how long am I going to stay angry to where it's no no longer productive. Like because being angry about the situation doesn't move the needle in the right direction and that's like where people like us come in like and having like a third party that's not emotionally tied to the situation come in and say look. You have every right to be angry but let's pause for a second and try and figure out like strategically from a let's start using logic let's start not using our heart using our brain like how can we move the needle forward and that's what I think a lot of families have a hard time doing. It's taking a step back and being like okay I had my anger I let it out but you know you're justified in that sure but for how long and that's like where we want to come in and be like okay you had your bout with your anger now let's start switching direction and looking at the active alcoholic addict yeah in their cups they're on lovely creatures but to tons point you put down the drink or the drug.

5:42And a lot of them stay that way you said what do you say they're angry selfish dishonest controlling like. Just because they stopped doesn't mean they're going to get better and a lot of times they ask like well I stopped drinking what more do you want. Well if you're going to be a jerk just keep drinking please you know well I mean we've met people that. Are probably nicer people when they're under the influence yeah and I mean I've actually I've said that to people you know if this is what your recovery is going to look like and consist of why don't you just go back to drinking well I'll say it like this I'll tie it to me being an alcoholic drug addict like I'm fun the first half of the night right like six eight beers. Then couple shots whatever I'm fun it's after those that things get miserable so if I'm going to be absolutely a miserable jerk not drinking I might as well drink and give them a little piece of me that's at least fun for a little bit you see what I'm saying yeah the problem is for people like us and a true alcoholic is that what is that line you know because alcoholics can't manage their drinking to just having six or a day.

7:07And staying within that threshold it's like well okay why don't I just have just two more and then well I'll have one more you know and then next thing you know we're 15 18 beers down and now we're blocked out angry again you know and and all that stuff so. From a family members perspective understanding that there's more to so you have what we would call a dry drunk right and a dry drunk is going to be somebody that just put the plug in the jug they just are not drinking anymore and what we would call that is basically abstinence so you're abstinent from alcohol versus living a life of recovery there's a lot of things that you can do. So I think that's a stark difference between the two and I think from a family member in loved one perspective understanding the differences is key here because you'll be able to take away from this.

8:12Okay is he living a life of recovery or is he just abstaining from alcohol. I'm going to go ahead and open up on this one I'm not going to give details but I'm literally dealing with this part of the process right now my personal life with somebody involved in my life and the thing that is driving me the craziest I'm not going to go into detail out of respect like I have a platform I'm not you know with with the podcast or not here to put somebody on blast not my intention whatsoever but like I want to be able to relate to the listeners here like the thing that is driving me the craziest right now in dealing with this is the emotional immaturity that is still there's a lot of fun in this. still remaining in that person. Everything's about my feelings, my feelings, like everything's being done to this person. No, you've made a bunch of life choices and alcoholism and active addiction and now there's a huge mess to clean up.

9:15Just because you put down the drink and the drug for a couple of weeks, doesn't mean all of a sudden all the wreckage is fixed and alter this out there. I'm still on my, you know, on the, what's the word I'm looking for? Journey? No. I'm still on the outskirts. No, I have no idea what you're talking about. Like I'm prepared for like the worst. Hope for the best prepared for the worst. Like I know we're not in the clear, just because somebody put down a drink or a drug for a couple of weeks, which may or may not be the truth. I don't know if this person's drinking a drug and or not. Like I hope they're not, but the immaturity that stayed as a result, like just because that drink hasn't been picked up or that drug hasn't been picked up for a few weeks doesn't mean like I'm not still cautious, like very cautious and honestly, probably more pessimistic at this point

10:16because it's been going on for so long. But you know, I'm never gonna give up hope and say like, oh, this person will never get better. But it does drive me crazy that rather than being able to take a step back in this person think logically and that's where alcoholics and addicts need the time for their mind to clear. So like they're like, oh, don't you see? I have been doing this for two weeks now. I'm like, well, there's still a freaking mess and everybody's still paying the consequences as a result of your mess. So like you can't expect me as a loved one to just, but here's what I can do. I can decide what I am and what I'm not gonna participate in, right? Yeah. And a lot of times that drives the alcoholic and drug addict crazy because they're like, I'm finally doing the right thing. Well, doing the right thing, you gotta show me for a while. You gotta show me through action. So my point is is like,

11:16we want to see alcoholics and addicts get better emotionally. We want them to have emotional maturity and develop that and that takes time. And you do have to give them enough grace to give them that space to do so, but you're also able to draw boundaries in what you're gonna participate in and not participate in. Does all that make sense? Yeah. So if we just, if we look at emotional maturity, the overarching, so, I think where I'm going with this is like, there's things that we have to do in order to get there from an emotional maturity perspective. Like, what are the things that, because anybody can put the plug in the jug for a week or two and think that that's good enough, right? I just, I stop drinking for a week or two. What more do you want me to do? In fact, it has very little to do with the actual drink. Sure, congratulations. You stopped for a week or two or three or a year,

12:21but you're still, you're not available at all to the family, you're angry all the time, you're short-fused, you don't participate in anything. It's like you're hanging on by a thread. So the question is, okay, we know we need time, right? You covered that and obviously we need to be shown some grace to a certain extent, but the bigger question is, what are they doing with the time? And so that's what we need to hone in on for the rest of this episode is like, if you look at your alcoholic loved one, whether it be your spouse, your parent, your child, time isn't just it. It's what am I doing with the time that is the answer to all of it. So I'll start by saying kind of the things to look for

13:23was somebody getting sober. First and foremost, for me, and you already know what I'm gonna say. And chances are you know what I'm gonna say. Community. I'll just get a guess. Like who am I surrounding myself with? So here would be the difference. Somebody that's abstinent that just put the plug in the jug still hangs out with their drinking buddies all the time. They're still going to the bar and watching the football games, which there's nothing wrong with at a certain point, but if like they're newly sober and they're just trying to hang on to the lifestyle and not surrounding themselves with other sober people that are there to pour into them and to speak life into them and to like, you know, they can latch onto those other sober people. But yet they're hanging out with their drinking buddies

14:25at the bar shooting pool till one o'clock in the morning. But hey, at least I'm not drinking. What's only a matter of time? It's only a matter of time. Community for me is the most important. Like if you're looking at somebody that is on a sober journey, I don't care where they are in their journey, but for the sake of this, let's just say early, they need to be surrounding themselves with people that are sober but intentionally sober. So the people that they're hanging out with have to be intentional about hanging out with other sober people and so on and so forth. There's like the sober community, the sober cohort, right? And maybe you are going to shoot pool, but you're shooting pool with a bunch of sober people, right? And that's the thing that they do. Maybe there's five or six guys that go out on a Tuesday night and shoot pool, but they're all sober and they're there together. You're not the lone wolf amongst five or six of your drinking buddies

15:28that you've drank with for the last 10 years of your life. Well, we need to see movement too because I want to also use the example of, you know, you brought up spouses in the beginning, like an angry wife, if you will, was the ones all in the comment section and the followers from the Instagram. Now, if what we end up with a lot of those times in those situations, you'll have a married couple, the husband's the alcoholic and he'll literally, you know, come home with his bottle or his case of ear or whatever that looks like and go down to the basement and just watch TV and drink, right? Things also from this perspective, you're talking about the guy that goes out. Yeah. Let's talk about the guy for a second that stays in. Right. Like that, we also want to see some movement in that situation where like if all of a sudden you're just going down to the basement as husband and doing the same thing you were doing before, just watching TV, whatever that is

16:28and not drinking, like you're still an absent partner, right? Like we want to see movement, somebody getting involved, whatever that looks like, man, go for a walk with your wife. You know, go do a yoga class together. I don't know, get a gym membership with them. You know, put stuff in your schedule like I'm a 12 step guy through and through, like I want to see people go to 12 step meetings but let's say for instance, that's not something they're open to. You know, we're fortunate to be here in the mecca of recovery Palm Beach County, Florida and like going to meetings can be fun. There's a lot going on, but let's say you live in backwards Minnesota, which I've experienced before, where you go to a meeting and there's like three people, right? It's you tend not to have the same kind of experience. That's why I also recommend people a lot of times get sober in one of these mechas, right? You know, so they can experience it. But point is is like, we want to go do something.

17:30Maybe that's join a church group, I don't know, or whatever religion you're a part of. Like there's so much stuff that you can do. My point is is we want to see movement. If you're repeating the same pattern of getting off work because you're the man that makes the paycheck, right? Maybe you're the breadwinner as the man, but like you offer nothing else to your family other than that paycheck. That's a problem, dude. That's gonna create a disgruntled wife, a disgruntled relationship, right? Like we don't want people to just stop drinking to stop drinking, dude. Maybe we do if it's like literally killing them and we want them to stand a chance, like they're getting cirrhosis or something. But dude, we want people to start living a life. We want your relationship with your spouse to get better, your relationship with your kids to get better, all that stuff. Do something. Fill your schedule. Build a community. Again, I'm a 12 step guy, but like maybe you live somewhere where 12 step meetings aren't that prevalent, relevant, whatever the case is. Maybe the meetings aren't that good, right?

18:32Like I've seen that too. I'm not gonna pretend like every single meeting out there on the face of the planet is a banger for me. Like there's quite a few that I've been doing my lifetime where I'm like, oh, I'm meeting kind of sucked. But like I've been to some, the ones I go to an hour are amazing, but I know where to go, when to go. I digress like fine stuff to do, to replace sitting in that freaking lazy boy in the basement watching TV. Yeah, and the word that keeps coming to mind for me is intentionality, like having to be intentional about this stuff. And you know, you mentioned work and money. And a lot of times what people do when they're newly sober, if we're not doing, and let's just stick on community, if we're not intentional about surrounding ourselves with strong men or women, if it's a woman. We end up filling that with something, right? Okay, we remove the alcohol,

19:32but we're gonna fill it with something. And a lot of times for men, it turns into work. So we've actually seen more often than I care to admit, men actually go from working regular 40 hours they stop drinking, not really incorporating meetings, not really incorporating anything in terms of a recovery lifestyle. Now all of a sudden they're working 50, 60, 70 hours a week. Now why is that? I can think of them many reasons why, but one is there's a feeling of accomplishment, the more that I work, the more money that I make, it fills that void. Also avoidance, avoidance in the sense that like, I don't, I'm used to being at home and being able to drink and kind of disconnect from everybody and everything, but now that I don't have that, I don't necessarily want to be home.

20:34Well, I'll throw this out there too, because this is really common and maybe one people don't think about. Back when I was drinking, drugging, I couldn't wait to get off work because I was racing home or racing wherever to drink or drug. Yeah. Now I don't have that, so sitting at work doesn't necessarily bother me because I'm not, I don't have this overpowering obsession to get out of the office so I can go get high or go get drunk. Well, right, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. Where it would be wrong is if you're sitting at work because you don't want to go home. Yeah, and you don't want to deal with, you don't want to deal with your home life, right? And because your home can be stressful, you know? I sometimes when I get home, I'm stressed out. I got three kids, they drive me crazy. My daughter's here right now, she's looking at me. Yeah. But when I get home, sometimes it's chaotic, but it's part of being a dad, it's part of being a husband.

21:37Like it's part of what we're supposed to do. And unfortunately, because I'm in recovery and practice recovery principles, I have to do it. Sometimes I don't want to, but I have to. I have to show up and I have to be of service to my children and my wife and, you know, other people. So it goes back to that word intentionality. Am I being intentional with doing these things? Am I being intentional with surrounding myself with a strong community of men? And if they don't do that, the day that they walk back in with their point or their case of beer is gonna come pretty soon. Yeah. You know, they're just not gonna sit around and do nothing. If you don't see the intentionality, they're eventually gonna drink again. So, okay, so we're intentional about community and surrounding ourselves with good people. What would be your next piece? My suggestion was actually gonna be for the loved one, if that's all right. Yeah. You know, again, like I'm gonna go back to the comments

22:41action that the angry wives, like you might be asking yourself, like, well, what do I do then, right? And I can speak to this one from experience. It might not be today, but start living your life as if they're not gonna get better. Right. Start living your life and building your life in a way, because again, let's go back to what I was talking about in the beginning where, you know, if you have a dependent, a child that you want them to get sober, like it's different because you're providing for them. But in a marriage or a relationship, you're both dependent on each other. Well, when you can no longer, when the relationship is so miserable that you don't wanna be in it anymore, there might not be like a solution today, but you can start building your life in a way that when the day comes that you have the option

23:41to walk out the door, it gets real for everybody. I'm not saying like, go build your life so that you can leave. I'm saying build your life so that the option to leave is there. Because when you're loved one who's drinking themselves of death in the basement, watch a TV, your worthless husband that doesn't contribute to the family, or anything other than a paycheck, realizes like my wife actually has the option to leave. They're gonna take a second, say, wait a minute. It gets real. It gets real, because like, dude, when I'm sitting back and I'm like, yeah, she ain't going anywhere, she needs my paycheck, she needs this mortgage covered, whatever that looks like, you know, that it's not a threat, so to speak, to my alcoholism. But if it's a spot where like that spouse officer, I'm just gonna use a generic example. I'm not saying this is definitely the case, but like all of a sudden the spouse, the wife is like,

24:44you know what, I'm gonna go get a full-time job that pays well. And you know, I raised the kids already. Let me go make enough of a paycheck to like where I can have my own little savings account if you don't have a joint account or you do have a joint account, open a separate little save, you know, be like, hey, I'm gonna split my finances, put my check in here and start building it like you could go get yourself with one bedroom apartment. You see what I'm saying? And I'm not saying to follow through with that, but build so it becomes an option so that the active alcohol can see like, hey, my spouse now has options. They don't need me to keep a roof over their head. So don't stay powerless in this situation. Don't stay a victim to your husband's alcoholism. Go out and start building your life in a way that you can step out that door if you have to

25:45or you have the desire to or you just can't take it anymore. A go bag. A go bag. Don't you have one of those? Like the zombie apocalypse? I have many of those. Yeah. Gotta be prepared. Yeah. Gotta be prepared for if things get really bad, you know? So all right. Well, if I circle back to from a recovery standpoint, being intentional about the community that we surround ourselves with, the second thing at least what? I have a second day. Oh, unless you have one. Yeah, well, let me do mine. All right. I would say I'm a 12 step guy. The community's great. Like if if all else fails, surrounding yourself with other sober men will be suffice to a certain point. Because I'm just going to assume that those men that you surround yourself with are working some sort of program in some fashion, whether that be smart recovery,

26:46celebrate recovery, 12 step recovery. I don't know. Something through the local church, whatever the case is. You surround yourself with enough sober men. Some of them are going to be working a program and that is going to translate on to you. So that is my number two is like being intentional about some sort of program. I don't care what it is. Somebody might say I'm not doing 12 step because I'm not a, I don't believe in God, which is you don't have to like, you know, we don't even need to get into that. But be intentional about that. Like find some sort of program that works for you that you can relate to, get a sponsor, you know, those sorts of things. I agree with that. I'm going to tie into this also. So show your life that you are interested in making this relationship better. Yeah.

27:47Hey, honey, I put down the drink, but I want to show you that I want our relationship better. How would you be open to doing marriage counseling with me? Or going to a pastor and working with the pastor, but like on a marriage relationship deal, you know, something that shows like, and where I'm going with this is you were talking about working a program and now it takes time to get there. But I like to, that use the word intention earlier. Like I want to see that the husband's intentions are getting better through what will start to look like a mens. Even if they're not going to 12 step meetings, which are highly recommend, because there's a clear cut program here, do one, two, three, four, five, all the way through 12, you know, 12 steps. But at some point, you want to see something that starts looking like a mens where they've identified the wrongs that they've done. And they're willing to make them right.

28:49Right. And really communication, you said community, I'm going to go with communication. Is there communication getting more effective, better, and inclusive of the spouse? You see what I'm saying? So much of the recovery process comes down to communication. Oh, especially when it comes to marriages. Oh my goodness. Like I think one of the biggest turnarounds that we see within our program here at rock is after we do family weekend. One of the things that I go into, when I, we meet with the families in the morning, just the loved ones and the addicts, alcoholics are downstairs, the clients. We spend time with just the family, but I basically tell them at the beginning of family weekend, I say after this weekend, you will walk away from here, send yourself, I've never communicated in such a healthy, open, direct, loving way.

29:51Like what needs to be said gets said, but also in a very healing manner. So now we can go with two comms. That's going to be our thing now, two comms, not just community, but communication. Community and communication. Well, listen, relationships, you know, how do I want to phrase this? Relationships thrive or die based off of communication. And that's the truth. Like resentment builds if people can't communicate effectively. And you see that most in recovery. Like just because people again, just because people are stopped drinking, doesn't mean that you're in the clear. From a spouse perspective, from a wife perspective, you may be thinking to yourself, all he has to do is stop drinking. And everything's going to be fine. No, no, no.

30:52In fact, it could get a lot worse. But the foundation of that is communication, you know. Let me throw this out there too. So we're moving the needle in the right direction. In my experience, it only takes one to start communicating in a healthy way. A relationship takes two. If one person starts communicating in a healthy way, they're, you're going to find out one of two things. Either that person is going to mirror that healthy communication, or they're not. If they do, that's a good sign to mending the relationship, moving it in the right direction. However, on the other side of that, if they don't communicate in mirror in a healthy manner, that tells you what you need to know. You see what I'm saying? Like they're not getting better. And now you have a choice as the spouse being affected by the active alcoholism addiction, or someone that just put it down and they're still a jerk.

31:53You have a choice on which action you could take moving forward. And I want to give an example, dude. I think this is important. One of the cases that I may or may not have seen recently, we had a family that was disagreeing with the client that we had here. Like in my opinion, both sides were wrong. At some point, like just the going back and forth, pointing the fingers, I mean, this is a family that dude just constant finger pointing back and forth. Like if it was a duel, they'd be shooting each other to death. Like literally, that's what it was like watching, like a verbal duel, right? Boom, shop fire, boom, shop fire. So the family sent the client a text message and I was like, ooh, that was a hurtful text. I was in the, because the client pulled me aside and was like, Ben, can you look at this? I'm freaking out. Look what they said. And dude, these are, the family's great. The client's great. They just really suck at communicating with each other.

32:55Like they're good people. I don't think either side is intentionally trying to be harmful or hurtful, but that's what happens in active alcoholism and early recovery. People are hurting each other because of poor communication. Where I'm going with this is that the family sent this text message that was extremely hurtful. I read it, I was like, dude, if that came from my family, I'd be pretty darn hurt too. And the client wanted to fire back. And I said, let's try something different. And him and I sat down on the couch downstairs and put together this text message that was completely opposite of what he wanted to do. I coached him, I guided him through it. He hit send. He's like, this isn't going to work. Bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, bap, being all grumpy about it. He's like, why am I responding like this? They deserved to get it back. I'm like, just watch. Have faith, dude.

33:55The next day he comes to me, he's like, I got a message back. I'm like, well, what's it say? And dude, he's like, why don't you just read it? The family mirrored his response. And it was a apologizing right off the rip. And it was a text message of understanding. It had direction. It had expectations from both sides clearly met. Like, dude, it only takes one person to start communicating right. And it's going to tell you, like, I'm going to recap one of two things. Either this is moving in the right direction in both parties of scene, what happens when good communication happens, growth. Or you find out the other person's just not there and you got some choices to make how you get to this. Well, it's not for lack of effort on your, your behalf. Right. That's where we can end this is like, family members and loved ones want to position themselves

34:57to be able to look back and say, we did absolutely everything that we could. Literally everything. No stone was left unturned. And it's frustrating. It's annoying. It's saddening, but more often than not, the other side of this is fruitful. And very forgiving. And a lot of times families look back on these situations and are like, I wouldn't change anything, you know? I'm glad for all that all this stuff happened. I'm glad you brought this up too because it's been our experience and we do tell families this. And Tom, you're the first one that I heard say this a long time ago to a family. Going back to like the one of two things is going to happen. We do a lot of interventions, right? And I remember Tom saying to a family, like the family didn't think the interventional work. And Tom was like, you're going to find out one of one of two things. Either it's going to work and they're going to get help.

35:59Or you're going to find out exactly where they're at, but what it's going to do for you is show you that you did everything that you could and then you can step away and wash your hands of it and said, I laid out every option possible for them to get better. I've done my part and it should bring you peace. And Tom was absolutely right about that when he told, and I was like, dude, a bell just rang for me. I'm like, man, that is absolutely true. So on an intervention, which are batting average is pretty darn high. Most people end up getting help. But in the rare event that they don't, something else happens too. We still coach people on the back end. After the intervention, let's say the loved ones says no, we still keep working with the family because we helped them like hold to the boundaries that they set during the intervention, what they're going to participate in, not participate in. We helped them hold to that through constantly coaching, giving them assurance that they're still on the right footing and the right path with the way that they're now moving

37:03forward in the situation. But a lot of times by that, the person ends up getting help later down the road. So interventions happen, but it might not yield a result right away, but it will yield a result later. And worst case scenario going back to it, the people find peace in their heart, knowing they did everything they could. If you're a loved one, if you have a spouse, that's where we started with this episode. If you have a spouse that's drinking himself to death, like, and you know you've educated yourself, gotten yourself knowledge done everything you can, you're gonna have some closure for yourself. If you do work on yourself and do it right. And like, no, like, I did everything that I could for this person. Yep. 100% correct, then. That was good. Man, I felt passionate about this topic today. I don't know what. Good stuff. Well, listen, if you're, if this brought you value

38:05and this is this, you know, hit a cord, I suppose, with you and you do want help, you want guidance on your situation. I encourage you scan this QR code. We do a free web class every single Monday night. It's a top three mistakes that all families make when it comes to getting their loved one help for their addiction or their alcoholism. So scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Or if you just want to dive right in and you want us to help facilitate your situation and really be the people that do the heavy lifting. And we come in and we coach you. And we ride side by side with you in your situation. No matter what the situation is, you can join our family reconnect program. You can scan the QR code here or click the link in the description and get into our community and start to learn and educate yourself and how you can move the needle forward. That's what this whole episode was about. And if you're a spouse, if you're a wife in particular and you have a husband that you're just ready to choke him, I really encourage you to do one of those two things.

39:08So we enjoyed making this episode Ben as always, pleasure and we will see you later.