#2560 - David Grusch

0:00Joe Rogan, why'd you ask? Check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience Shrane by Dave! Joe Rogan podcast by night! All day! Alright, well David, what's up? Thanks for having me back on. My pleasure. Yeah. Well you're the one that's closest to the flames. Tell me what's going on. Oh I know, right? So living the nightmare is what I tell my friends. So it's definitely been a tough several years or so. And last time we were on just testified in front of Congress. And the UAP Disclosure Act of 23 was possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed. And then I am based on things I know about the Biden administration, things I heard from the White House. I decided to lay low for a year. So 24 didn't do too much. And then Representative Burleson had this crazy idea to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress working for him.

1:00Turns out I guess I was like the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then being subsequently hired by Congress. I was the first guy that ever do that, which is very interesting and very cool. And I do thank Burleson for, you know, his leadership on that. And so I did that for about a year and a half. Just finished up actually. I was like, you know what? I'm staying longer than I thought. And I'm going to wait until Labor Day, see where things are. I worked pretty hard over summer recess in August and decided to, you know, wind down some of my activities because I accomplished a lot of my objectives. And we can get into that obviously. And then kind of move into, I'll call it my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. It's been very tiring. I've been kind of, you know, going full throttle for the last couple of years and what not. And so we're really at a, I think a poignant moment in US history with what Trump's done and the things you've seen in the media and what not. And there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes because a lot of my work has been private behind the scenes,

2:02you know, working for Congress, specifically, Representative Burleson. So let me ask you the environment. So are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you and want to find out information and want you to tell them what's going on. And are there other people that are resisting this? Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the nonbelievers and then kind of the UAP caucus. Although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause. Like I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members. And we even had a Brigadier General retired, Representative Scott Perry there who was on the House Intelligence Committee from my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members, you know, start showing that they support the cause. But it has been challenging behind the scenes. And I had many skiff classified meetings with the members kind of going over the topological history of this topic. And some of the deeper, darker kind of criminal stuff I bumped into and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff.

3:06What kind of criminal stuff? Yeah, so when I was looking into this, I had to be very respectful of my participationness because it's an ongoing thing with DOJ. I was following the money, bumping in the other activities. Very much like, actually it's sort of related. And if you saw on the news that David Rush, very similar name to me, it's kind of freaky. But he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars. He was a CIA officer. He made a fake continuity of government special access program. And he went under the radar basically doing his own thing and getting gold and roll access and stuff. And the FBI raided his house back in May. True story. Is that gold bars? He has 40 million dollars of gold bars. Where do you get the gold bars? From the agency. They have them laying around. Yeah, I can't get into all the details of the government. The government has gold bars. And this guy just snatched him.

4:07Yeah, he made, I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that he drifted into, he like, you know, papered it. And nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing. And he was like, why need you know, 40 million in gold bars because of the special continuity of government activity? Wait a minute, wait a minute. So that's how they fund some things in gold bars? Yeah. It's almost like in Afghanistan, when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash. Because you have to pay for things, right? Right. So, that kind of makes more sense to me than lugging around gold. Yeah. What does like 40 million in gold bars look like? I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot. Can I see what that looks like? It's approximately a 303 gold bars that each way approximately 1 kilogram a piece. Yo. That's a lot of weight. Yeah, looking for a picture. There's only like AI photos. Yeah. Or at least that I could find some. So a kilogram is 1.2.2 pounds? Yeah, 2.28 or something. That's crazy. He's got 600 pounds of gold.

5:07Yeah. What the fuck do you put? He said he just had it in his house. He did have it in his house. Sling around. A bunch of Rolexes and all that. Oh, so he was just going crazy. Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really going to use the gold for, but that's an open-ended thing. And he was arrested. Was he arrested? Tending that he was using it for some disclosure type deal. Or did it have anything to do with UAPs? Not that I'm aware of, but that same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity government program. So that's like, you know, if something bad happens, people are going to a hideout site, you know, sanitize location. Right. And so what I bumped into, unfortunately, was like the deep underbelly of the federal government. We can get into it. It's a lot of stuff I've never talked about because it's just very terrifying. And I've been through a lot of crazy shits. And I ended up bumping into a criminal enterprise run out of a particular agency. And it was basically getting money through certain criminal endeavors, the most unspeakable type of criminal endeavors,

6:14under the cover of certain national security programs. So that's about us. When you say certain unspeakable, you mean like what do you mean like trafficking? Yeah. Like child trafficking. So the government was involved in child trafficking for money. Officers of the government, that's true. Yeah. It's fucked up. I briefed members in a classified setting all the details. And I'm highlighting that because this is how serious this issue is, is there's an ecosystem. And there's a lot of good people around these programs in terms of the U.A. police law. Yeah. And I know a lot of them, their friends of mine, their patriotic people doing their duty, but there is like a small little caste system of characters that are a part of this larger ecosystem of no holds barred. We're going to do what we want. And you know, we're going to do whatever kind of criminal activity to get a washed money for our cutouts. Like so a good example, of course, the I ran Contra, right, which is very famous 86.

7:18And the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities. They've all been exposed all over North and all that to fund the Contra's weapons purchases, procurement, etc. And a lot of that seemed to possibly be drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that, but you look at Barry Seale and his statements in the 80s and 90s. And it's likely that that probably occurred. Yeah, it was all through the freeway Ricky Ross. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times. That's right. Yeah, he was on, was it like two years ago, year and a half ago? Last time he was on. It's funny because he's out now, became an attorney, Wows and Jail, found out, learned to read first. Okay, couldn't read, became an attorney and jail, found out that they tried him, you know, the triple jeopardy, three strikes thing. Yeah, they tried him incorrectly. They used that incorrectly because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested instead of like three crimes that were attached to one arrest.

8:19So he gets out of jail. Now he sells legal weed. All right, all right. Lovely guy. Yeah, but he's a great guy. But he had no idea that he was selling cocaine to fund the conscious versus the sand in East is. Interesting. He had no idea. Yeah. He thought that he was just a slick character that just knew what he was doing. Yeah. He didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it. And then we've also had Michael Rupert on the podcast. You know who he is? No. Rupert was the LA narcotics officer that I believe was on C-SPAN. He went on C-SPAN during a hearing and he exposed the entire organization selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles because he was involved in it. He was involved in like busting people that were doing it and then they told him he has to leave it alone because it was the CIA. Yeah. This episode of the Joe Rogan experience is presented by CBS Marshalls. Luke Grimes is back as Casey Dutton in Marshall season two as a part of an elite unit of US Marshals working to bring range justice to Montana.

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10:29That's promo code JRE or go to LifeLock.com slash JRE for 30% off Terms Apply. Mr. President, my company formed me of the explosion I'm not re-agreed. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heat the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger Donner's into the specimen. And Digger is gonna dig a top. From the director of Bergman and the Revenant. What would happen if I stopped? You stole, you freeze the deck, that's what? With great power, comes great deniability. I'm not the Earth, Digger. See the dream all night. Only two years until we're second. Wait a door. Under 17, I'm in without parent. Yeah, and so when I bumped into that stuff, you know, I immediately worked at Department of Justice. That's one level, but like child trafficking is another level. I know, man. It's really fucked up and there's a lot of details that are... I have a lot more questions and answers. And I worked with DOJ and from what I understand, I got a gold star and a brief to cash patelle about it last year.

11:31I wasn't in the briefing, but I was told I got kudos, but it was very disturbing. And so obviously a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that there's... In terms of UAP stuff, there's classified executive orders back in the day that covers them. And there are upstanding citizens and we could litigate like, you know, Congress wasn't necessarily brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, etc. But you know, the core of the program, you know, does have a legal beginning, but when you don't have oversight, unfortunately certain small pockets of people start doing shit that they shouldn't move. And unfortunately, I got deeply ensnared in that. There was a very small group of people that, you know, pushed me over the edge and I had to do what I got to do to protect myself. And I never wanted to be a whistleblower. I was a deeply entrenched, you know, 15-year Intel officer, military officer, near force.

12:31You know, I was working some of the countries in most sensitive issues, you know, started going to the White House, the Briefed National Security Council, my mid-20s on space issues back during the Obama administration. And in 2019, when I joined the UAP task force, and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, sure, I'll look into it, you know, the special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction. And maybe some stuff wasn't reported, you know, correctly. And I didn't know really what I was going to find, but if there was a US program, you know, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it and we'd be fine. We'd have like a mafia meeting and, you know, that, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot. But unfortunately, about a year and a half, about October 2020 is when kind of my life changed. And particular individuals, instead of coming to me, who knew me by the way personally, and I know them personally, now Dave, you're bumping into something.

13:32So I'm going to defensively brief you, this is what it is, or hey, I'm a slide in NDA, sign this and I'll read you in. And my colleagues and I joked about that. Like, we're bumping in the shit. Eventually, somebody's going to knock on my door in my office and be like, hey, I need to talk to you. And unfortunately, that never happens. It's really tragic, because that would have been easier way. I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020. And basically, they went after everybody around me. My boss at the National Connistance Office, as, you know, major grudge, the Air Force officer in the reserves got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia under fabricated, personal conduct things. And they went after, you know, my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15 and co-workers, people they thought were my enablers, right? And I thought, okay, I could fight this to bring it up like my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before, Afghanist and PTSD.

14:36And like, I reported it. I was clear to, you know, no problems. I kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance. But it got very, very scary in early 2022. And I've avoided talking about this for a long time. And I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023, you know, I'm here, I'm here for my life, et cetera. Well, you know, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff I found, stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff. And so back in early 2022, everything's fine. I started noticing some suspicious activity near where I live. And I didn't think much of it. I thought it was kind of strange. And I don't want to quite go into all the details. But basically later one particular day, I was sent a message that they can touch me in my wife.

15:36And they know where we are. And what do you think this was particularly, was this because of the child trafficking stuff? Was this because of some other illegal activity with no oversight? And I know in private environments, I was asked, what red line, what trip wire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically. I suspect based on them, what turns out they were monitoring my classified computer at work. My investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there, I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I still don't know for sure though. And there's a lot of other things too. I guess I'm kind of jumping around because in early 2021, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience a Havana syndrome symptoms. And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem. I was an expert in the government.

16:42And of course, my first thing is like, huh, did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service? Because you don't think domestic. And I'm like, what did you do in your career? Were you on covert action programs? Did you like, you know, bomb some, you know, adversaries building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge? So I noticed that I wasn't going to equate that to the topic. But I was very nervous about that because people I know we're starting to experience a symptom specifically a microwave directed energy, most likely, just based on certain trade craft they were doing to detect it, which I won't get into the details of that.

17:54They're protecting me against, you know, the CIA and the NRO and certain elements of the DOD that were going after me because of these couple antagonists that were trying to, you know, basically push me over the edge administratively. But what I crossed the Rubicon early 2022 when I was sent a message and it was the same day I was sent a message other people got that message to. So it was coordinated geographically. And of course, you know, I reported that to federal law enforcement, kind of intelligence element. And at the time, I'm like, well, you know, there was a one adversarial intelligence agency that had interested me several years ago and I had a little incident that was actually kind of funny. So I wasn't sure if it was like the US government or even if it was related to my investigation. And then several several weeks later. And I was I get chills talking about this because it's kind of upsetting.

18:54I was in DC for a conference on UAP actually for my agency and G.A. at the time. And I got some into an off books Senate Intel Committee, we'll call it meeting in their, you know, their skip right there. So I was in the UAP where you can talk class by information and certain individuals were there known to me. Great credentials. People I've known for a while in my line of work. And so was, you know, a dozen dozen and a half senior staff for Marco Rubio, Mark Werner, you know, etc. And in that meeting, we talked about the legacy program, the history, many hours. And I'm going to fly on the wall. Like this is really for Senate staff. I'm just kind of sitting in the back. And, you know, they turned to staff and they pointed at me and they're like, oh, by the way, you know, these couple individuals. And they named the individuals. I'm like, I know who they are.

19:57They wanted to kill you. And I know Louis L.A. is on to talk about it. But why? I do not know that for sure. I think, well, so, um, hmm, be careful what I say. There are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government. And my assessment is I was getting so close to exposing it because I was sort of preparing my inspector generals report to the IG that I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know and I hope these people are, you know, brought the justice. And that's, you know, my wish and dream. And hopefully Department of Justice does what's needed. But isn't investigation ongoing right now? Yes on that. And that's all I'll say defensively not to interfere with that. A good day starts with a solid morning routine. So if something's missing. If your body isn't getting what it needs, everything can feel off.

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22:14I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect, you know, critical infrastructure in the United States, which you know, for example, that would be like a Air Force flight line, a ICBM silo, other activities and they decided I was some sort of threat. It's so disgusting because I, you know, like I said, I was a feel great officer, near force, as a, you know, GS 15 to CIA, Colonel, Cleveland civilian and I'm sitting there and sent at chambers and I'm hearing this and I won't get into all the details in a lot. I heard like, you know, all the details on that and I don't want to like burn my sources and and I just remember how upset the Senate staff was. And to the point where, you know, a particular staffer who's very senior went to his office and got some whiskey and you know, all of them started drinking in the skiff because it's like everybody was afraid like are they serious. They're like they literally were thinking about killing fucking Dave and like and I found out that there was a kabosh to that. That's a longer story for some day if I could ever, you know, discuss the whole, the whole history and so it was considered, but then it was kabosh.

23:27Yes, thank God. And I know how it was stopped and I owe some people a dead of gratitude literally and and this was just a few weeks after, you know, I was sent a message and and even after the meeting. We were finding stuff and other people were finding stuff to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds like so fucking crazy and all that, but well, so does someone having $40 million dollars in gold and out there asking a bunch of Rolexes. Yeah, never did I think, you know, I'm a very patriotic guy. I love serving America. You know, it hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore and knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this interesting interpretation of certain standing. And I eventually in this disclosure process a lot of that will come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until, you know, the president figures on how to release some of this history unfortunately so understood.

24:35Yeah, so one of the things that we talked about before so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back but flies guy canceling and we moved it today, but you were saying that it's actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled. Yeah, a lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this and I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is is is showing right now ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It'll be courage how so like you think he's in danger. No, not necessarily, but it's it's the ontological shock and the history coming out and sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting sort of like in post 9-11 America after the towers fell, right? You have the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks, but you also have this like uniting panacea that kind of brings people to that. I think that is equivalent to what's happening right now. It will be and I think that's going to happen.

25:36So I believe before Trump Trump's term ends that it's all going to come out. What does that mean? Everything I've testified about, you know, the fact that you know we've been studying this for a while, we've recovered material, aka attacks and my intact craft. We've you know recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft and you know we are reverse engineering and obviously there's other parts to that. It's very complicated ecosystem. A lot of people who are just really said all shows Indiana Jones warehouse tour don't appreciate the care that we're going to have to proceed with because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archaeology where you're digging up stuff. There is you are dealing with, you know, third parties, both human, you know, adversarial countries, etc. They have their own program and then you have, you know, our this anomalous intelligence or visitors, NHI, whatever you want to call them, ultra terrestrial, depending on what's taxonomy and the tree that you want to

26:43describe some of this origin to and of course, you know, the national security related technology that has been derived. We've derived great stuff to the FN America. I've had exposure on that and you know I'm very revered to that. We've derived it through back engineering. Yeah. 100%? Yes. Well some of it it was inspiration. It wasn't a one to one like we we unlocked the iPhone. It was like, huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that frequency selective surface property. You know what we could use that for an aerospace application or whatever. And so a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one to one. In some cases, I suppose we did, but like that's been most of it. What's the hold up in terms of disclosure? I necessarily can't read the president's mind. There's certainly a multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries, you know, our adversaries have programs.

27:52You're going to tell their citizenry. You have a possible theological distress, Vatican, et cetera. And I'm a Catholic and I certainly appreciate the Vatican's long study on this subject and they've just stayed quiet on what they know. And so it's there's a lot of like collateral effects. If you're not careful with certain stuff, you can, you know, trigger a response. And there is great fear that I don't necessarily believe in this. But like there has been assessments in the past that, you know, revealing certain things may, you know, trigger a response from a third party. Trigger response from them from these possibilities. And that is a that has been written up. So the government think tanks wrote that up and reports the previous president. So the the theory is that we disclose people are now aware of it all over the globe. And they decide to show themselves. Yeah, I mean, I think there's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment. I'll say.

28:52Oh, boy. You know, and it's one of those things where I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time because clearly the government hasn't right now. And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be student enough to know what to ask for. You know, massage the deep state and get that information because we just saw Timbershett on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about Stephen Miller called him and was like, hey, I'm getting blocked. Like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff. And you know, that's very concerning. I would say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pit bull and as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his. That's a silly thing to say. Yeah, you know that right. What a fellow alpha. A fellow alpha. Open yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule. Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's perfect. And I know everybody has their faults. But I do appreciate the fervency he is attacking.

29:57The issue behind the scenes. And I just I think he needs. God had the right way and informed and kind of how. How to cut this deal. You know, like I mentioned very briefly at the UFC event at the White House and he told me that it's going to come out. I'm like, okay, that's good. Well, there you go. It was really quick. Yeah. So like he's like, I'm just I know you're interested in this. This is literally all we talked about. Yeah. The UFO thing is going to come out. Yeah. Like, okay, when when's it coming out? Let's go. Exactly. And and and and Trump understands this subject pretty good. And you know, he's in the know and he understands some of the implications. So I like I said he has a lot of courage because this is likely going to change society in a big way. I can't necessarily I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist. So I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce, you know, fetal nation state, peer competition and other things. But it is going to change and I and I think when people look back at this interview, it's going to be very haunting because I think in short order, you know, before Trump leaves office, we're going to be in a new paradigm.

31:01I'm normally a very pessimistic cynical person. A lot of my friends know that. But I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing and I feel. And eventually going to there are the people that are in charge of this are going to have to comply with the president's order and. But there's a right way of of doing this, I think. And I like I said, I'm not some sick of fan for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower. Obviously. And you know, I have philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff. And I am surprisingly confident, which is kind of weird for me to say because I just see the tea leaves. I know Miller serious. There's other people in government serious. I mean, even see Aaron Lucas, the PDD and I, the deputy director of national intelligence, you know, sign these big NDA waivers. It includes like any kind of waiver of not even telling the president, sorry, you have to tell us kind of thing. And so you're seeing kind of the chess board being set. I know everybody's not happy with the tronches coming out with the low hanging fruit videos and recordings and stuff and represent a burlsen and I before I left his office recently got in 1952 recording that was still classified from blue book.

32:14I'm talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy shit that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges, which is interesting because in in that video that's been declassified, it mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same anomalous activity to include stuff in the southwest. I can't say where it's in the ecosystem in the open source, but the executive branch has to acknowledge what specific test and training range. They're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain this cost helicopters and all that. So is Trump experiencing resistance in your opinion? Yes, and I don't know all the details, but clearly clearly Miller has and a lot of it is, I think, and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stator, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political pointies and they don't and members of Congress, they don't have the reverence on this issue.

33:14They're going to fuck it up. They're going to say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program and that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress is called waived programs. And the only presidents that were really, really involved were the ones like HW Bush, right? He was CI director. He was fully briefed on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about HW Bush, Cheney, like I've talked about fully in this. He was the mob boss for many years. He was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there's some testing of the waters right now. It's kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like, you know, we'll give you a little bit of this, little bit of that. And they're seeing how the administration is going to potentially roll this out. And obviously if the White House wants my opinion, I'm available, but I do trust the president's team, hopefully we'll be able to handle this. And because if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is going to be able to, I mean, regardless of Democrat left, right, whatever.

34:18Like if he follows through on this, he's going to be the goat. He's going to be a legend. And, you know, all the other things people have problems with in his presidency, Iran, whatever, I think this will wipe those out. And this is like really important for his legacy to initiate the process before the 28 election. Then there's like a hot handoff to the next administration. And, you know, if Trump's a political animal, he could easily line up a Republican team on the 28 tickets to basically, you know, be his continuity on this too. I think that'd be very smart. And so this is going to take a long time to release is that how you're projecting that was always the plan back in the day. I just because it's like an anesthetization and climateization process. It's like, you know, okay, we're going to focus on this topic. Everybody's this is going to get normalized. The temperature is going to cool. And then we're going to bring in this shocking thing. So there's a there's a schedule like in terms of like the psychological impact on the populace in the past in terms of certain government think tanks wrote classified assessments for previous presidents on this.

35:27I don't know what the current plan is. I'm just I'm currently literally a private citizen right now. But if they're going to do what they did in the past, it is. And the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses like I would say due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever, you probably have to roll this out in at least like 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now our weakness. You know, China has their famous belt and road initiative. China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force. Obviously they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DOD UAP task force was announced, you can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post where they talk about their analyzing these encounters are using a I etc. So do you feel that China has or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well?

36:30There's parallel programs. There's parallel programs. Now one of the things that Diana Paisalko said when and Gary Nolan refers to in the same way as well, they refer to them as donations. Yeah, that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retrieval rules where they were like perfectly landed and it wasn't like a crash. And what is what's going on there I'm sure we've done a deep assessment I had never had access to that kind of information I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level but that is true that that's actually happened. So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it. What's that engineer it or like you were saying before gain inspiration to try new yeah, I mean this episode is brought to you by Zip Recruiter. Have you listened to the radio lately or maybe you've been catching up on your favorite sports podcast or even this podcast chances are you've heard a lot of Zip Recruiter ads.

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38:36Their grills run on real hard wood pellets so everything gets that legit wood fired flavor whether your grilling steaks smoking ribs cooking chicken or even baking a pizza you just set your temperature put your food in and let Trigger handle the rest it's simple if you like food that tastes like it came off a real fire without all the work check out Trigger grills part of it's like throwing the grill up banana see if you can peel it but also. The more skeptical intel officer in me is like was this a Trojan horse do you want us to figure things out and get it then get addicted to certain type of technology and then that creates a control loop where they start handling us whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology. They are in this intelligence yeah whatever this is this non human intelligence right so if if it is a if it is a donation do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers.

39:39You know I do not know the the statistical distribution that's very interesting I never understood the total number of retrievals in other countries participated there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States oh yeah that's for sure I don't know the answer to that actually I'm sure there's a statistical analysis it'll come out in this process. Do you think there's any shared information between these governments do you think they communicate there is a gentleman's agreement the top layer of it I can talk about and I've talked about it previously so it's not anything super new if you look at the accident measures agreement of 1971 which which is the short title of this god awfully long title treaty that was signed in September 1971 you'll see. Article 3 of the treaty talks about UAP and hey if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical critical comms facilities please call us bro that was between the USSR and America and then in 2013 the classified annex of that tree got declassified you can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives but it gives the new clash like the red line like code to say it was like Adam 222 Adam 333 and that's all declassified.

40:59And he would send that to the the Kremlin like hey we see fucking weird shit around plasask it's not us it's not a false flag and vice versa and so there was a red line comms for UAP activity between Russian US and of course Russian US during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for space launch vehicle and ICBM launches etc weirdly enough we've never had that with China even to this day we don't have a mutual this is great. We don't have a mutual notification if they're going to do like a some some marine launch ballistic missile test out of you know off their coast they're not obligated by treaty to tell us so and sometimes they don't with certain national security activities and and so northern command nor ad missile warning center other other places NSA death smack in Laurel Maryland have to be on their a game to like make sure it was like a test because the Chinese are obligated to tell us.

41:59And I a crazy story in that regard the Indians did something like that to us I was on duty in the NRO operation center and by the way I got this clear for security so you know NRO don't shank me basically there was an unexpected Indian missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019 I was like March of 2019 one of our satellites. One of their their own defunct weather satellite on purpose or an accident on purpose and they shot down one of their own. And they didn't tell us I remember in my office at like all these different phones I'm like calling the embassy all this like what the fuck you know and because we were worried at the NRO about the debris because we fly space you know spy satellites that's the mission of the national conference office and I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the operation center where I was you know also handling the PDB. For the director and I you know led the director's briefing team and you know I'm like going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens like calculate the debris field you know let me know if we have to maneuver something and blah blah blah and I'm like running up to the director's office in my uniform you know out of breath I'm like holy shit you know and it was kind of a big deal and that's it publicly you know you can google that now and I remember when that went down it was pretty crazy so.

43:24Now it sounds completely insane yeah so are there other countries besides China Russia and us that supposedly have access to these vehicles yeah which other countries can you say that I don't want to get into that gets into some sensitive stuff right supposedly this is like one of the best legends that there's a craft that's so large they couldn't move it so they had to make a building around it and supposedly in Korea. Hello, I know oh yeah you do know how dare you but if you heard you've heard that rumor I'm sure online I've heard that rumor online yeah you know anything about that yeah we'll let the federal government do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff you know it's funny you ask that I as far as I can remember I have no experience with the phenomenon like a lot of a lot of people in this I guess you apology or whatever you want to call it they have a that personal experience. Like, oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb or whatever.

44:24And I have zero. I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that could have been satellite passes. I've been in amateur astronomer, besides having physics degree. I've been in amateur astronomer since I was like in middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And I still have never seen anything in my personal life in a cis-dependous nature. I've never had any kind of spooky, woo stuff happen. No, I've been visited. No. And that's why I was open to this. I'm a child of the 80. Well, I grew up, I was born in the 80s. Most of my childhood was in the 90s. I watched X-Files and Star Trek next gen. And of course, I'm a precocious teen reading like a brief history time. And Isaac Asimov. And I'm learning about the Drake equation. I'm like, there's probably life, but who knows? And I'm open to it. And then, when I got into the intelligence community, that's like the first thing I looked up on the computer. I go on to a certain database and type it in an area 51. You know, you have, like everybody's

45:24done that who's gone through Intel School, whether they admitted or not. And of course, I didn't see anything or anything. The only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSAP, the Defense Intelligence reference documents, the DIRDs. And at the time, I had no idea what they were doing. It turns out it was obviously UAP related, but I was reading, why is the DIA looking into Magneto Hydrodynamic Propulsion and cloaking and all this other stuff? And of course, I find out later what it was. But I had absolutely no personal experience. And even professionally for most of my career, now I found out behind the scenes later, like, oh, you remember that top secret program you're working on Dave? You were actually looking for UAP. You didn't know it. I'm like, what? And of course, I find out and I learn about how they hit all this infrastructure and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to

46:25basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and totally have a separate infrastructure to use to figure out of stuff crashed, activity, etc. And early, I would say about 10 years into my career, I remember some imager analysts saying, hey, Dave, they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff. And it was round. And I'm like, okay, dude, well, maybe that's something you're not clear to or whatever. I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career too. I was on some really sensitive stuff that I ended up finding out it was directly adjacent to the program. And I went through this whole, like, smoking man recruitment thing for a year. And, you know, it was told I was going to get these kind of bizarre her accesses. And I'm like, what are you talking about? And ultimately, I was never recruited. And I kind of just like put, filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've said, you know, before, I wasn't until like spring of 2017, I was at

47:31the CIA briefing the deputy director staff on a bunch of DOD classified programs. And the chief of a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, what do you know about UFOs? Like, I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm briefed almost every DOD program at the time, by the way, in hundreds of programs in the intelligence community, because that was in a position of very high trust. And I'm very patriotic and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that in my 30s. And I didn't think anything up until until this subject got more popularized people in public, you know, Tom DeLong, TTSA and all that. And then I was professionally interested, but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in 19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the then Navy task force, which became the DOD's, you know, UAP task force. That's kind of my origin story. And so I was always, I'm always been

48:32curious, but I never saw evidence. And I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon that kind of colors my judgment on this, I guess. So I'm sure you're aware of how put off when he was tasked by the Bush administration, along with a bunch of other thinkers, to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure. Yeah, I knew some other people in that meeting and I verified that meeting took place. And even, even Arrow emitted in their volume one report, which was horrible. That's long story, painful, it took place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a federally funded research and development center in northern Virginia. But year was this 2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real? Nobody explains that. And obviously the story is, Steve Hadley, who was the national security advisor, sponsored it, I believe Hadley denies it, but who knows if Steve would tell the truth on that just because of the sensitivity.

49:35And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them a pro and a conside. Like what would be negatively affected by disclosure would be positively affected by disclosure and attach a numerical value to each. Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything from what I know, talk another attendees. And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive. And so the decision was made to not disclose. Well, yeah. And in the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in, you know, the spring court, but they realized a lot of this. So this is another issue of disclosure. Besides the ontological thought shock and people can't handling it and like misappropriation of funds. Yeah, and misappropriation of funds and all that. It's, oh, so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development where they figure out something that's settled back to the government, et cetera, for all these decades.

50:39What about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah, blah, blah. And so you're going to, they were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the D-Fars, right, the defense federal acquisition regulations. And the government would be liable for who fucking knows billions of dollars worth of money that they spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day. And like, well, we're not exposing any more people. We're locking it down. And what they call a JNA justification and approval for a sole source contract. This is a race national security. Like we can't expose any more people to this. And of course, that also causes a brain drain and group think and actually hurts the defense industrial base. But that was the main reason it wasn't, oh, you know, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can handle it. It was like, yeah, we're kind of culpable and kind of a fucked up contractual relationship. And that's going to be something that the Trump administration is going to have to deal

51:41with is like, well, how do I reorient the defense and industrial base? I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America, more people get to play. You overtly can take the basic information. It's not sensitive and put it into academia. Right. So you have undergraduate, graduate postdoctoral programs. And you actually create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But in China, it doesn't have this issue. They're they're pulling people from pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs. And but in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. So, well, China, they probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds in line to Congress. No, CCP baby, you know, do whatever you want. They do whatever they want. So they don't have to worry about liability. So this is one of the things that came up in that film age of disclosure. That's right. That you're going to have to make some sort of amnesty program. Yeah. And I'm I am for that as long as it's like use immunity for specific

52:44testimony or long as it doesn't cover like this other shit that you're talking about. Like my and of course, I know who's watching people clearly that are from this ecosystem. You know, I expect that like everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, how they wanted to fucking kill me. This is like it's disturbing. And I and I wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I don't want to do this shit. But like I was pushed over the edge to do that. You know, I digress. But like besides like blue color really fucked up criminal shits, which you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America. You know, we're not going to do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally. Like I took care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm, you know, and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people body armor armed with colleagues of mine that were, you know, roll and heavy too. And like, it was a very serious part of my investigation. But yeah, I believe in Amdesty, but I think we need

53:50to do it like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which was in post-aparctite South Africa in the 90s where you had, you know, some white farmer comes in and it's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of black people or whatever. And it's like, okay, thank you for telling us that. You're good. You know, don't do it again and move on. I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and good because, I mean, I have friends that run the program. They're great guys. The bros, you know, and gals and they, you know, were signed paperwork. You know, it was like, if you, you know, divulge this, it's under penalty of treason. You get 11 worth or, you know, capital punishment. Okay. Yeah. Let's break down what you know. Yeah. And what you can say. Yeah. What are these things? And what are they capable of? So, there's like physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasma

54:55possibly sentient plasma. So plasma that has consciousness. Yeah. In some way, and that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole and some other intelligence shooting this, like I'll call it like plasmoidic probe into, you know, our existence. I mean, there's, this is of course a theoretical framework. And once again, I don't have a PhD in that. But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma based life form. And there's already papers on the open internet about this a couple years ago. Oh, it's the toilet, the paper. They wrote, they wrote about this possibility. So this is a academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it, interestingly enough, and OSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magnetohydroid dynamic propulsion, which if you remember the the movie, the hunt for red October, that's the caterpillar drive on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. And of course,

55:57with MHD, you can also do it. You have to use a conductive fluid, either seawater that has salt in it, or you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma. And you steer the plasma, what it's called, the larynx force. It's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, large amount of electricity. And you can basically through the larynx force, which is like ionic propulsion, sort of, control it in the atmosphere as well. And you can, you know, read papers on that and IEEE and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air breathing MHD system is plasma around it. So depending on the size of the orb, it is conceivable there's a physical craft behind it as well, just as an artifact of the propulsion system. Once again, that's a theory. I'm sure the program knows and that will be communicated at a later date, but like, you know, that's yeah. So this theory about sentient plasma. Yeah. Is it the idea

56:58that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be? And that life as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe. We're waiting on corporeal at some point. Like the meat suit sucks. We're going to be energetic. Like this is an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution that eventually consciousness is isolated or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything in every anyway. And that, yeah. Yeah, certainly. And I'm not the expert in. I would say the consciousness theory, I like the Penrose Hammerov or OR theory, which is the microtubules, the room temperature. So microtubules are in neurons of the brain and you have this like room temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer. And that's what Roger Penrose and Stewart Hammerov, and I've talked to Hammerov, crazy smart guy. He's an anesthesiologist by training. And Penrose,

57:58obviously, is a very famous mathematician and physics legend. And that's how they view consciousness. I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it because it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and like telepathy because, oh, well, it's just a quantum system that I'm like, quantumly entangled. Oh, that makes sense now. Like why remote viewing and other stuff works. Yeah. Okay. So you have some sort of plasma based intelligence. Yeah. And then what else? So obviously, there has been the physical craft of all different flavors. Like I've talked about it, you know, the tic-tacs are real. There's eggs. There's different types of discs. There's bootheels, sunfish-looking things, boomerangs, crescent moon-looking craft as well. And obviously, all those have different origins in terms of pilots and whatnot. There's a little bit of overlap. It's almost like certain people like the portion 9-11 or Ford Mustang, they kind of build the same

59:04shape. And that's probably indicative of the technology or the propulsion system. I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know, several different types. And it's once again, it's a taxonomy where it's almost like, like not all white people look the same, right? Same idea where you might have like a species per se, but then there's sort of like subsets. Right. Now, is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from? And that there are different ones are from different places. There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was good, once again, how would you like confirm that as a skeptical former human intelligence officer? You have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from Star System X, Y and Z. Right. Cool. Is that denial and deception? You know, activities are you misdirecting? You're from somewhere else. So even if they said they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, they're

1:00:09certainly obviously ways. And but some of it seems, once again, extraterrestrials part of the pie here, right? There's a, you know, there's ultra-trestrial and other things. And I, it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while. And also seem so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, this isn't rhetorical. I don't know the answer. It's like, well, it's just by I'm engineered. Is this a break from our tree? Is this some sort of other technology, like chameleon type technology, if you will? I don't know the answer to that. So I think that's what are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this. Yeah. So like, do they have answers? Or do they just have theories? I am not certain of that because I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rules that out, I'm happy to, you know, parse that with American people and public and kind of

1:01:09explain my opinion on things as gaps in information for myself is filled in because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't have full access. And I only know what I know. And that's why I've treated this with such reverence because even me going public, I'm like, fuck, I don't know what this is going to trigger. Besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress. And I had to even resign my Air Force commission to even fully retire. And I'm trying to get that fixed, you know, filed something with the Air Force board a year ago. So I can actually retire and have my benefits because I, you know, I miss my promotional antenna kernel and other stuff. But I digress. But certainly, there is such similarity that there was a concern from a genomic perspective. And there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out where to compare genomes from biological samples. Yeah, dead cadavers. Yeah. So that's real. Oh, 100%. So they are, oh yeah, I know that for sure. How do you know that for

1:02:14sure? I got to see the audio visual on that. You got to see what? Yeah. So I got to be a little vague only because I want to protect the sources because it may indicate a specific activity or operation. And these people were very patriotic. And they were just the dead cadavers in, you know, on the ground because you were a trivial activity. Yeah. You saw them physically or you saw video of them video video. Yeah. So you saw dead cadaver that was at a crash? Yes. So they filmed the crash. And they filmed these cadavers. Yeah. How old is this footage? I don't want to say it's contemporary. But I it's contemporary. Yeah, but I don't want to reveal a particular operation because it narrows it down. Right. But it's clear. It's not like you're looking in 1950s, black and white. Yeah. It's clear. And do know, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, tell me what it is, what what happened? And then I put it out for collection. So to speak. And then

1:03:15I confirm it independently because I was very allergic to any kind of deception, right? Like, because in the advent of AI, Sora AI, you can you can create a very realistic. And so I was very anal, attentive when I was given documents, audio, visual, et cetera. And I sat on that stuff for like years until I felt comfortable with that, not being some sort of limited hangout or dissension activity. So yeah, what did it look like? Human looking how human very like, like, looked like a human or look similar to a human. Very very beautiful and beautiful. It and I said this color was the skin of bluish white and like a super close. No, no, no, no, no, no, it like someone who drowned like a pale sort of albino. And and it's interesting. And I said this in another interview that's not out yet, but and and God willing, this is my last interview for a while, hopefully in pre-disclosure environment, you know, and I general Macazzle when he was talking

1:04:20to DeLong, and this is public record, Tom's talked about it on I think your show and other interviews where he always told Tom, think of the Greek gods. And and oh, true, you look it up and now I kind of understand what he meant, but general Macazzle who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the the declassification order on UAP in February 2026. There's a lot of reasons why Macazzle's disappearance disappeared. He walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished. Oh, that's right. That got yeah. Yeah. And nobody knows and I, you know, I have a relationship obviously with justice and nobody knows what fucking happened to the guy. And he like he left shit home so he could be tracked. I think his phone was left, but you know, one of his firearms was missing. It's like very weird. So right. He left without his phone. Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the weird parts about it. Yeah. And and once again, he was going on a trip with like 18 of his friends. He went to REI the day before to get like a medical kit, other supplies. And I mean, obviously his wife's

1:05:27discussion about him, the body cam footage is public. And he had some mental health issues nothing major and and some aging type issues. But she didn't think, you know, he was going to like kill himself or whatever. So I mean, you never know. And I've had friends unfortunately passed away through suicide in the military. But it's very bizarre. And it's within a week of Trump that coming out. And just say I know a lot about General Macazzle. Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UAP disclosure or UAP potential back engineering projects or mysterious projects. Possibly, I think, do you think there was more like to be fair was a little overblown. And I don't think there was a ton of correlation. Like one was like a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when Macazzle was a commander. I think that was one of them. Well, I mean, there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. I the only one she have did didn't that one particular lady

1:06:28if it's the same person. Didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science? That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared. The only one besides Macazzle that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that died mysteriously about two years ago. And it's an open investigation. So I won't get into all the gory detail in my assessments. I mean, it's binary. It's either a very tragic thing, either self-harm or otherwise or it was something else. And my friend, his name's Matthew Sullivan, Carl Sine Quake in the Air Force, him and I were on active duty together. He was on the program. And he was one of my sources. And I once again, I don't name people, but like, unfortunately, it's past. So I want to make that clear. This video, do you think this will be a part of disclosure that we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies? Probably.

1:07:29Probably. So there's a lot of audio visual stuff. The problem with the current climate, like you're going to have to wheel out the physical evidence too because people are the trusting government is so low right now. Like you could show a video of people are going to be like, oh, well, that's just the US government fucking with us. And you're going to have to of course curate a wheel out literally, like, you know, put it in the Ouvar Hazy Center, the Smithsonian, and then give the biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know he wants it. Why would you give it to him? Well, he says he has people to test it. I have people to test it. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, give it to me. I'm just I'm just saying that. It's all ridiculous. Again, there should be a way that human beings other than the government can look at this. Well, there needs to be an independent biologist process. Yeah, right. Now, is this stuff? So this is contemporary. This is this dead body thing. And so this is a fairly recent crash. And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they

1:08:37have ears? And it knows I could recall. And it wasn't like ultra, they have hair. Oh, yeah, dead hair. What color was the hair? It was like grayish and all that. It was the problem is, I don't want to give the nature of the video. It wasn't super close up. It was like course, not during the operation. So it's not like during the operation of retrieval. Okay. And then they they had these things. So what is your understanding of what happens to these bodies? Other kept for analysis. How do they keep them? They freeze them. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status. Was that the most compelling thing you saw? Yes. Because it couples with both the craft and the alleged occupants. And there was some other stuff in that area that I got to be careful talking about because it's so specific that it'll easily ID the you know, the patriot that helped me on

1:09:39that. And once again, I went to public to see all this stuff. And you know, don't take my word for it. Plead with the president to make sure this comes out. When we courageous to do so. And I just, you know, I hope this all comes out. When you say contemporary, you mean last 20 years, more recent. I don't even want to characterize it, but it's it's contemporary. And then when you say Greek gods, like these, these creatures actually look like something special, like not just like a regular person, you said beautiful. Yeah, just very oddly. And it's been a mile, and I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. It was just very, very beautiful. It was just when I'm wearing an outfit. It looked like it, like some kind of form fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it. Expandex. I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly. You didn't? No, I mean, it was like a pan. Okay. So they didn't even focus on the bodies. They just say, oh, there's a body. No, because there, you know, people had a job to do, right? Do you worry about that that's a side off that you're being shown something that's horseshit? Well, like I said,

1:10:41I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources of methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hang out from some government element trying to sway me one hand or the other. So you independently verified that there was an event. Yeah, I did. Okay. And then there's footage of this event and in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there? I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was. Did they have gender? Looked amorphous to me, but once again, it was a pan. Really? Okay. Yeah. Long hair, short hair. Long. All of them? Yeah. That I could recall. Yeah. The Greek gods thing is very weird. It's weird and it's a weird comparison. Like you stop and think about that. Yeah. Well, why were the Greek gods? So beautiful. What's funny? You say that because like I think about like breakaway human. I mean, then once again, I'm just I'm just or maybe even an original civilization that existed before. Yeah. There's more people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the

1:11:44earth. Like how are these things? We had a whole podcast yesterday about it. It's like how are these things made? Who made these things? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I followed Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson just casually and I do have not fears, but I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization and that explains some of this or it's bioengineer because like for them to develop naturally, say off-planet, save as extraterrestrial, that it looks almost dead ringer like us. Like that doesn't make any sense to me. Well, does it make sense if we're engineered? Then it makes sense. So that is that is certainly a possibility. Yeah. I have questions about that too. This is a this is what Bob Lazar believes. I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of genetic some sort of manipulation. And I think hypothetically of that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, you know, how

1:12:45how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions on that if that ends up being the case. But it gets weird because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent God created us out of nothing. That's cool. But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost God-like in their powers and abilities, some creature from somewhere else are some beings, super hyper-intelligent being from somewhere else. And they manipulated us. That bothers us. I know. And I'm weird. My biggest regret was not getting access to like the biological assessment reports and stuff like that. I was getting enough spears thrown my way and I was, you know, in literal danger. So I unfortunately wasn't able to kind of, you know, get access to that stuff. Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it? Not on that side of the program in terms of like the scientists analyzing the bodies. No. I just I know people that are good friends of mine that were on retrievals and saw them as well in person.

1:13:48And once again, I'm like comparing like, did you look like this? Like this? This happened? Was it this type of craft? Do they vary in terms of what they saw? Yes. And some of my colleagues saw them alive as well. Yeah. And what did they see alive? Like the Greek God-looking ones? No. It's the pop culture. I can't wait to talk about this. Pop culture. Reptilean looking. Reptilean. The the grays, yes, as well. Those are real. Once again, the aerial school phenomenon in 1994. Very well documented mass sighting. Is that some Bobway? Yeah. Near a uranium mine. Oh. And they saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular discraft. Once again, this is why it's almost like not that shocking. It's like, yeah, they look like that. No shit. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who

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1:15:54Rogan. This offers for new customers only. Well, that story has been going on for a long time in that iconic. The problem with iconic imagery is that now you have it in your head, what to expect. That was from the movie Contact. Remember the movie Contact? It showed itself. Great movie. Great movie. I know my boy Amar. I got him hooked on that movie. He watches it like every quarter. He's a phenomenal movie. But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jody Foster's dad. I know. Because that's something that she can handle. And that's what it's funny. You say that. That's what if they're bioengineered, then that makes sense. Because of that. He's a contact. He's a communication. Also less ontologically shocking. It's familiar. And I think as this rolls out, I think the American people need to think about like, okay, well, I'm presented with this reality. How would I react? I just think of them personally as like, it's like my West Virginia cousins. It's like a different part of the family.

1:16:55I'm cool with them. I'll chill with them. You know, whatever. Hey, I'm a nerd. Do you know how bad I want to just hang out with them? Me too. Not that I have personal bias for President Trump to do this, but just like any American I want to know more. Of course. I want to meet them. I want to communicate. Well, I think it's just it's wrong for some people to have access to this information. Because I think this is different than any other kind of secret information. I know. I think it's weight and it's significance and impact on the human race in general. I mean, I demand. I want we should know that you shouldn't there shouldn't be a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff and the general public doesn't. So they have a completely different map of the world than we do. I know. And I just think about the unfortunate lies and

1:17:57how society has progressed over the last several decades and where we could have been if this was handled back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Right. And once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this. Like, I saw a little bit of crazy shit. I learned some stuff. I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest, highest, highest level. And it's me. Like, I'm just a dude. Like, I was a, you know, major in the Air Force and, you know, mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But unfortunately, I got stuck with this and it wouldn't have happened unless this small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge and, you know, I was unbelievable to rest and I ended up having to go public. So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive. Yeah. So they were alive post-crash? Yes. Why do these things keep fucking crashing? So some of it is NHI versus NHI. What?

1:18:57They've worn the sky. Isn't that in the, you think it's like, when they get along, they're so advanced. But the, we have records of them fucking around with each other. Is that in the Mahabirata or the Bhagavad Gita? There's, I don't know. I don't know. Talk about Sky Wars in ancient, Hindu texts. Oh, yeah, in the Vedic texts, the blue people. Yeah. And I know that's why you ask blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but, you know, I got a short little look. Live in their lives. Well, that is true. There's like a post-mortem change in the fact that people. That's what happens with people. That is true. Because, you know, as they were struggling and then died, obviously, their affect changed. No, this friend that encountered, first of all, the, go to the Greek God people first. What did their craft look like? A boomerang, Crescent Moon usually. Not all the time. It's kind of like, once they go back, some people like to drive the portion on 11, that tends to be not all the time, but that's

1:20:04where they like to roll up. They talk about them as the tall whites. Yeah. Where they tall, where they large. Look tall to me. I didn't have like, because, you know, I didn't have a brown reference really. I would say at least human size. They could be like very similar to humans. Yeah, it could be my big ass of 6. But like, they looked big similar to humans. I think so. There might be taller. Once again, I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about. I'm sure there's other variants of them too that look more towards like the classic, what is it in you, fallagy like Nordic or tall whites that are probably even taller. If some of those experience or stories are true, which once again, as long as that source is credible, that might be a thing. So I think we need to be prepared to kind of that being a thing. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, the reptilian craft, what did that thing look like? That one is tic tac looking. Uh oh. Yeah. I was hoping they were the cool ones. The reptilian ones,

1:21:11the ones that everyone's terrified. Yeah. And once again, like, we're doing like, and of course, it's not always a tic tac once again, kind of like what I said, but like that tends to be them. From what I understand, obviously, hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you know, pretty good sourcing on that. When you see like a malevolent behavior, right? It's like, well, that's a humanistic lens. You're seeing like an animal lash out and captivity, captivity kind of thing, or they're in duress, they're having an emotional experience, etc. And it's like, you know, are they actually scary? Or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them? And so we're kind of bias and all right. Of course. And so these reptilians, what did they look like? Now, I've never seen that personally. But it's like very almost like, um, seven foot tall plus, uh, sort of gorilla looking, scat, scaly skin though, reptile gorillas, but there's multiple types. There's ones that are more humanoid looking. So there's multiple types of reptilian.

1:22:15Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that one. That's once again, I never saw it in person. They get the exact, uh, you know, see if there's a artist rendition. Yeah. Of course you are. Yeah. And once again, it sounds, it sounds so skit so like, even for me, it says gorilla with scales, ex deep state intel officer. I'm like, I cannot fucking believe I'm talking about this shit on Joe Rogan. Scare scaly gorilla. I know. I mean, it sounds skit so. And it's like coming from somebody like me, you know, who, you know, is a credible person and has been in government. It's like, but he's going to be that guy. I'm going to be that guy. And then like, down the road, people will review Joe Rogan. And he's like, that motherfucker, we thought he was crazy. But, yeah. You know, it's true. Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you're going to sound crazy describing any of this. It's so outside my experience because I never had some kind of woo thing growing up or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon. So it, it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience because I'm relying on the

1:23:18personal experience of others, you know, audiovisual stuff. And it still feels like I'm watching a movie like it's like, is it real? I mean, I know it is, but like it's, I have a cognitive dissidence a little bit, you know, and how are you able to watch this video? Do they have to put you into a secret room? Yeah, I won't get into the exact way it went down, but we'll just say it was kind of sketchy, but to keep everybody safe. And so there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare. We've documented that. Talked about it. In collection, well, what we perceive as warfare, so unless it's conflict. Yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells like conflict. Is this some other kind of weird shit? I don't know. And there's maybe an assessment on that, but it, and when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict, because I would imagine it. Correct. That they're the ones you'd have to worry about. Because there was dead, dead graze there too. So the graze and the rotilians were duking it out. I guess, you know,

1:24:25I know the people who were there. This sounds fucking insane, David. It sounds fucking crazy. And once again, I don't want to get in too many specifics, because this is a very unique, there's a couple unique retrievals out there that protect the innocence and people that have risked their fucking lives. Because a lot of the people that came to you with that kind of information, and they were physically threatened like me and all that. And so like me going public was taking it for the team because I was able to create this umbrella of tacit protection in case somebody got fucked with. Unfortunately, you know, my friend Matt, who knows what happened to him, but you know, tragically he died, you know, mysteriously. So now these reptilians, what was their craft like? Oh, like I said, the tic tac stuff. And was their craft crashed into the ground like broken up? Yeah. Okay. It was like wedged into like had it been hit with something? I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash. So that I want to misspeak on what exactly happened.

1:25:29And how many times has this happened? If you had a guess? I don't know the total number of like adversarial conflict crashes, but I mean, it seems to be at least a dozen or two. I don't know. So Lisa doesn't or to adversarial crashes. And then there's the high altitude nuclear tests. Right? You're aware of those, right? Okay. So there's been a lot of speculation that during those high altitude nuclear tests that crafts that did know it was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that? That's an area that I'll let the government handle. That's because it gets into vulnerabilities and in and what the US has figured out. So that just gets a sensitive area. But that's something I'm sure that'll come out in this process. So you can't talk about that. Yeah, just because it gets into US capabilities and what we figured out in terms of well, this is all like from the 50s, right? Yeah. But we still got nukes and we still got those kind

1:26:31of weapons, you know, right? You're aware of those. It was what was it, Jamie? Was it a telescope that they were they were taking photographs of the stars and they were doing it with, do you know what I'm talking about? All the dots popped up thing. Yes. It's like two or three weeks ago. Right. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago. It was an observatory and the observatory has these old plates of images that they took of the sky. Oh, is this biotruses worth the VASCO? Yes. Yeah, I read it very interesting. It's hard to make an exact conclusion if it's UAP, but it's right. Really great original scholarship and I applaud her for doing that. But they're appeared to be moving reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere that they were taking images of. They were not static. They were not stars. Pre-sputnik too. That was the important thing. Pre-sputnik. Very important because there was no satellites at the time. This was images that they

1:27:35took of the sky that showed things that were reflective that seemed to be metallic, allegedly. And if I remember her paper correctly with her co-authors, it also there were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing, chronological temporal correlation as well. So data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be image 24 hours after nuclear weapons test. Like I was saying. Yeah. Right. So this is chronologically like we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high altitude detonations, like Operation Starfish Prime. Yeah. We detonate these things and then all the sudden these craft start showing up like, hey, what are these fucking crazy monkeys up to? It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons. Oh yeah. Obviously this phenomenon's old. It's interactive with man and antiquity. You know, Jacques Vallet's scholarship on that passport and magonia. Yes. That's why the names of our rooms

1:28:38at the Comedy Club are fat man and little boy. Oh nice. Yeah. Because that's what ushered. Because it's the Comedy Mother Ship. It's a UFO's base. Yeah. If you go to the Air Force Museum, they have the the Enola Gay there, I think. Is that right? It's one of the planes. Oh wow. My alma mater is going to crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. Wow. It's pretty cool. They have a mock-up of the little boy and fat man bombs. So you can see how big they were. He was like, what the shit? That was big. One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old. He said that they had somehow that it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archaeological dig. I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but the archaeological thing, that that isn't thing. Yeah. Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara in Egypt? No. What is that? Okay. So is that the one where there's a metallic object that they've but the what's his face won't let people go in it from the original? Well, it's complicated.

1:29:41It's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it. So these labyrinths, this incredible compound that's underground was documented by Hawara to this. And he said it was greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction. Wow. So now they know from ground penetrating radar that these these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms exist. They know where they are and they know why they're flooded. So they are flooded because during the 1960s, they built a dam to divert water for agriculture. And when they did, they changed the water table and it flooded this labyrinth area. And when they use this ground penetrating radar, and I think it's radiotomography in a bunch of the different ways of one of things they found was a 40 meter long metallic object that's in some sort of, is it, is it in an atrium? Like it's in some sort of a large room? I've seen a video about it. You're

1:30:44recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online. Just imagine if that's what that is. It's the movie Stargate with Kurt Russell. If these people had been worshipping this craft and so much so that they built this incredible temple and put it in the center of their temple, it's a 40 meter long metallic object. And the metal apparently is of unknown origin. They don't know what the metal is. It's not registering as copper, it's not registering as steel or iron rather. They don't know what it is. Interesting. Interesting. It's fucking weird. Yeah, I mean, I won't be surprised as some ancient civilizations were essentially cargo cults for these visitors. That is most likely true in many cases, not all. And of course, that gets into theological areas that are touchy, but I do think that that's probably the case. The central object is hard to classify. It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the Diplodica skeleton in the Hincey Hall of

1:31:51London's Natural History Museum. It could be anything. It's shape resembles those tic-tac hard and might also be an upright disc or even a colossal shen ring. The ancient Egyptian symbol representing the eternal cycle of creation. The big job object alone, big object alone rather raises profound questions. How did it get there? Why is it there? So show him some of the artistic recreations of what it looked like underneath the ground. So this is all, you know, like I said, Herodidus wrote about this thousand years ago. But now it's documented that these chambers and these pathways actually exist. And there had been people that had studied at least the upper surface levels of it is recently as like the 1800s. Interesting. Yeah. But that, you know, through all, like a lot of Egypt, there's a water under Giza. There's water under the pyramids. There's water under, you know, a lot of that stuff is flooded. And so this is what it looked like. This is all underground.

1:32:55It's fucking crazy. Because if this along with Philippo Beyonde's work where it shows using that same satellite radio tomography that there's some sort of structure underneath the pyramids that goes over a kilometer into the ground. Is it easy access or is it just like a government denial, the antiquities bureau, whatever they call it? Well, I think there's been some progress in terms of allowing exploration. And I don't know the extent of it. But I know that a lot of people are very hopeful that that progress is going to be achieved. Like they're opening up this research. And look, this would be a giant boom to the tourism industry. I mean, that's what they want. I mean, Egypt probably survives. I don't know what percentage of their economy in Giza is tourism, but it has to be massive. Yeah. And you always hear interesting stories. You know, I have an eclectic group of colleagues and you hear interesting stories. Is it the Queen's Chamber, the granite pillbox,

1:34:00and people have had interesting experiences in there too. And, and well, the King's Chamber, that sarcophagus. Yeah, it's that like, yeah, that makes perfectly cut granite box that also, I think it mirrors the exact dimensions of the arc of the covenant. Interesting. That's crazy. But I know people who's late in it because they have to kind of pay the guard. It's a lot of hours and what happens and they just have like a weird transcendental experience. I mean, it's kind of woo once again, I've never experienced something like that. Let me lie down there, bro. That's a thing. That's a thing. I'll let you know who to talk to offline. How much do you think it costs to lay in the box? I don't know. 100 bucks. You Jim 20 gram maybe? 20 grand. Whoa. Yeah, 20 grand. You can like sleep there. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's very strange because the structures themselves are incredibly strange. You know, the structures themselves are so immense and so complex and they're the methods of construction are completely unknown and just the symmetry and the,

1:35:01the the precision of the engineering is beyond comprehension for people that lived at the very, the very, the most recent it could be is 4500 years ago. Yeah. And a lot of these people think it's far older than that. And we're finding that I've been watching some of Graham Hancock stuff. You just look at these like megalithic architecture that's older than you think, the stuff in Turkey and in the United States as well in Ohio and and Mississippi. Yeah. And it's like in their finding all these pyramid structures using synthetic aperture radar. And I so I am casually following it and it does seem like we don't really even know our own history. And I think all this coming out there's going to be a huge rewriting of a lot of our ancient and modern history. So well, that's where it gets really weird. You know, Rep Paulina Luna was on the podcast. Oh, yeah. She was talking to me about the book of Enoch. Yeah. I hadn't read it. She's like, you have to read it and I've read it twice now. And I'm like, what in the fuck are they talking about?

1:36:03Like the book of Enoch, which was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. That's right. Come on. And it refers to the watchers who came down and and made it with daughters and created this race of giants. And it's like, what? Your credit card company is hoping you don't hear this. They're charging you 21% APR interest, making it hard to pay down your balance. A home equity loan from Rocket Mortgage could cut your interest rate by more than half. So you could wipe out your high interest credit card debt with the equity you've built in your home without touching your current mortgage rate. See how much you could save at rocket mortgage.com rocket mortgage LLC license and 50 states in MLS consumer access.org number 30 30 call 804 rocket for full program details. Yeah. And you think is like now when you when all this comes out was that actually literal? And you know, right? And of course, the Bible Council in ICA was more of a political document before secular government. And you know, they got together like what are all the different books that we get agree upon that are good? Yeah. What gets into the cannon. And that's the thing about the book of Enoch is that it was it was not put in there because it didn't jive with the Torah.

1:37:07Correct. Yeah. Which is like, okay, you fuckers. Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like if you go to church and you read about the watchers. Well, there's actually a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible. Like obviously, and that's another thing like, of course, with them, you know, I'm Catholic by growing up CCD confirmation to the whole thing as a kid. And you see a lot of outspoken exorcist and other people right now saying, well, all this alien stuff is just diabolic deception and demons and you know, all that kind of stuff. And I and I respect that opinion. And I do think like what you perceive as a demon is a certain class of nonhuman or anomalous intelligence. And and that is certainly a thing. But the whole ecosystem is not demonic. And but the Bible is interesting because once again, it doesn't discuss about other life elsewhere. Like it doesn't talk about bacteria and viruses that those were unseen. We cohabitated with bacteria and viruses until the invention of the microscope, whatever that was, 1800s or or whatnot. But if you go into Leviticus

1:38:13and a Deuteronomy, you will notice these like, cleansing ritualistic stuff also like, hey, you can't have your toilet and your living area and all that. And if you look in those books of the Bible, wait, that's like modern sanitization guidance. So it's funny that like the Bible has encoded within it kind of like best practices before man would even understand what a, you know, viruses and bacteria are. And I just find that that's very interesting based on when it was written. And it does show that there was some sort of higher intelligence kind of influencing the authorship. I just either that or into the civilization that was writing the Bible was a recreation of civilization that had been destroyed in the cataclysm. Yeah. I mean, I think that it, especially when you look at the pyramids and you look at some of these other ancient structures like Lebanon, Baalbach, they don't make sense. And it seems to me that there was probably something super sophisticated a long time ago. And it got wiped out. And then what we get from these ancient

1:39:14texts is probably oral tradition passed on through hundreds, if not thousands of years. And then people writing things down and people remembering these stories. I think one of the weirdest books of the Bible is the Book of Ezekiel. Yeah. Because the Book of Ezekiel is one all the UFO people turn to. Yeah, of course. Because there's that the great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually. And in the midst of the fire as it were gleaming metal. And from the midst of the craft came the likeness of four living creatures. Yeah. Like what? Yeah, exactly. The creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning. What? Exactly. In the man a machine, the cloud is all is real within a wheel. There's weird shit in the Book of Ezekiel. Yeah. Like that is a very, very weird story. Like what are they describing? Yeah. It sounds like a spaceship. It sounds like a ship comes down from the sky with immense power. Frightens everyone freaks everyone out. And these

1:40:14entities are inside the craft. Yeah. And I think a lot of it once again, they're interpreting it based on their vernacular at the time. They're understanding. And I remember I was at two years ago as a capital reef national park in Utah and there's petroglyphs there and some of them kind of look like aliens. 100% and you're like, well, is that literally what they're seeing? I perhaps. And and I don't know the answer to that. That's not my expertise. But I feel like a lot of the stuff in ancient tradition is literally what they saw. It's not necessarily allegory or fable. Some of it may be for for teaching lessons, but I have a feeling a lot of it was actually literal. I have a feeling a lot of it was literal as well because most people first of all, A, couldn't read and B couldn't write. And so writing fiction seems like a fruitless pursuit. It seems like writing history so that you can remember what happened. At least a version of it that's palatable like ancient Sumer, not an okey, you know that. And it's like, well, why did they make

1:41:14up just for fun? Right. They all had cookie stories about being visited. And you know, when you're telling me about these things that look like Greek gods, that's how I described it. And that's how clearly what what General MacCaslin was hinting to Tom DeLong. And once again, I got, you know, well, doesn't it make sense that the Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not not they did exist literally, but that like when they talked about the Greek gods, they talked about them in this manner, looking like that. And then you actually find a craft with these things that look like conquistadors were treated like that in the 1500s, right? Yeah. Right. Literally white Caucasian, bearded, yeah, with horses. They rode horses. They couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on with that. Yeah. And I'm glad we talked about it. I mean, I think that is probably the most uncomfortable stuff for me to talk about, but it's also something that the public needs to wrap their mind around and understand that this is a thing and kind of start processing that kind of reality. Well, and then as much as coming from me, but I mean, I'd the federal government,

1:42:18you know, if Trump really is serious and Stephen Miller, you know, does his thing with this, I think all this all this will come out in a hopefully responsible way. So they're they have a schedule that's based on the concept that people need to have this information trickle slowly so that they can adjust. There were suggestions in the past. If the president did something, I am not aware at this point what the what the plan is in that regard right now, though. But there is some sort of an idea that this should be trickled out. Yeah, this shouldn't be like boom. Here it is. It isn't the president truly wants it out. And obviously Bob Bigelow met with the president as well in February of 26 before he made an announcement. I mean, he told the president, hey, you know, admit that there's NHI and we've, you know, recovered stuff. Yeah. And we're looking at it in a semi-formal announcement to start an esitizing the public and you could find that interview online that Bob did

1:43:18what I think it was with George Napp on a on a podcast. So it it's not just myself advocating for this. There's other people. I don't even know Bob Bigelow and you know, he did us a solid by pushing the president to help make that decision. I mean, there's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes and you know, I work in mysterious ways and I won't divulge certain relationships and certain rooms I've been in. But it took a village and you know, I'm proud that you know, the time I spent with Representative Burleson was very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff behind the scenes and I think Burleson's going to go down as a very courageous man and it's and I say that not just because he was my boss. I mean, he was probably the most forward-leaning member of Congress on this issue. I mean, Representative Luna did a great job, you know, Timber Shets and others, but you know, he actively was sending letters out. We made some of them public. That's how we got that Lincoln Labs formally classified, 1952 film outs in the last tranche that just came out and also we've sent into

1:44:19rawgotories, which are legal questions and that require an affidavit format response to different organizations and it's public that we sent one this summer to the the MITRE Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center, had courted in North Virginia. So they clearly have a duty to respond. There are corporate councils working on it and obviously the, you know, I left, but the hopefully Burleson's team is able to push for a response and conjunction with whatever Stephen Miller and the pursuit team is working on too because they're probably going to want to coordinate all that. So this guy that you communicated with that said he encountered living reptilians and dead grays. Did they have communication with these reptilians? I don't recall that. No, I don't think so. So what? Now some people do get that kind of like that feeling and I've talked about that. It was on Dr. Phil actually. There is some sort of

1:45:20consciousness communication, call it telepathy. Hella fine oh how it works, but it is a thing and I know sober, high ranking people I've served a decade and a half within the government that were on these retrievals that on occasion that would happen or they would have like a feeling come over them. It's almost like I wonder, this is like my own hypothesis and I would laugh if this is true, but sometimes it's like a positive feeling like of comfort. I wonder if that's almost like a countermeasure on the craft to prevent certain aggression or whatever. It's almost like how Air Force jets have countermeasures on them, flare, chaff, you know electronic countermeasures as well like jammers and I wonder if some of that is psychotronic technology. That's just my hypothesis. I don't have any secret knowledge, but I did you come to that conclusion? Just because like it seems interesting. It's like an anesthetization technique to reduce like the occupants risk

1:46:23of danger maybe and it's like a countermeasure. Oh well like if you feel at peace you're not going to like roll up and you know do something back to the public. Yeah exactly. Yeah right so if you feel like they were vulnerable they could placate you and calm you down with telepathy. It's like a countermeasure system. I have a feeling that it's that instead of just communication. Oh it could be. I'm just saying my other hypothesis in absent because sometimes they'll get that feeling absent some sort of occupant. Now is there a particular type of non-human intelligence that has this telepathic capability or is it amongst all of them? I do not know the holistic answer to that question. I do not know. The the the Grae's for example but I don't the Grae's do is that been reported. But I know that all whites have been reported that that they can communicate telepathically. Oh certainly. This is the Nordics. Yeah there's been accounts out there in the public vernacular on

1:47:25that. But potentially but unfortunately that's at the limit of my personal knowledge that I feel confident you know saying something public about you. So what what are their kinds of beings have been reported? So for the great types there are multiple sizes. There's a big taut thin one right? Yeah there's taller ones. Yeah they think a lot of people think that the tiny ones might be some sort of like an android or yeah that's certainly hypothesis that has also been discussed you know within the program as well. So there's a variety there's like three or four different subtypes and they all have various statues different effect. Right the faces are a little different. The tall ones seem to be running the show and the little ones. And I've heard that behind the scenes as well. And I don't know what to make of that. Once again I don't have like a holistic knowledge on kind of the that species. But it kind of makes sense that you would if you develop some sort of a non biological

1:48:29life form that worked for you. Like say if there's a bunch of menial tasks like think about like all the things that people have to do in this world. Well we are silicon based NHI aka artificial intelligence are basically doing that already. Right. It's scary. Yeah. And I I postulate that artificial super intelligence if it's allowed to have certain data and it's able to collect data I mean to include genomic data almost like Larry Ellison's doing the what the Stargate AI medical thing right now at the Trump administration. I bet artificial super intelligence could disclose before the federal government if we're not careful. And that's why I feel like times of the essence. I think AI could possibly find evidence that we're not alone and curate that like it's been solving other crazy mathematical problems lately you know open AI has been doing that. And that's another danger besides our adversary accelerating this by taking the upper hand on this to look like a more messianic truth bearer. You could have big tech and AI invertly discovering

1:49:32US classified technology that we figured out which is a national security issue near and dear to my heart. But also their presence just through different data sets. So they would have definitive proof that how would AI have access to definitive proof unless it hacked into every government resource. Well medical records right optical sensing systems you know that kind of stuff. Certainly I'm not aware of some sort of imminent thing but I think there is a possibility of artificial super intelligence if it you know comes online in the next months to years could figure it all out because they might see gaps in the historical record that don't make any sense they detect a now deception operations are like wait a minute that story about that event in history is not right let me do some digging and then they they figure out oh that was cover for a crash retrieval that event didn't actually happen the way it does and I I can think of some things that that could possibly happen okay so you have these Nordic Greek god looking things you have these reptilian ones are there more than one type of reptilian one yeah there seems there seems to be and I don't know why there's different

1:50:35subtypes see if anybody has does anybody have any artistic renditions of what they saw the reptilians I wasn't getting I was only getting like weird fan art of you know crazy I'll fighter things nothing like a description let me see what that looks like I have a fan on sense there's just I like nonsense see some fan art now I'm splashed on young kids walls as a kid after post disclosure you're gonna have NHI fan art all over the place yeah Lamborghini Kuntosh on the wall right but well Betty and Barney Hill of course were yeah that's a weird one and also Dr. Carla Turner did a lot of work in the 90s I mean this was from a description on Reddit which happened that's who he's jacked yeah he's got a tail yeah he's got a hole for a tail in a suit yeah once again I've never seen one so I can't he's wearing scrubs verified sketch some weird 3D oh is that the uh I don't know what these are I'm a the proven one's weird no idea that's another

1:51:36open-ended thing that some of the proven ones seem like total horseshit and other ones are like what the hell is that and how is it so old if it's that good of a recreation if it's if it's art it's some of the greatest art I've ever seen because the bones yeah but then the bones the footer incorrect and some some people think that it was actually put together and made but then for what purpose like what what is the purpose like grave robbers found it's the provenance is kind of sketchy but they look possibly legit yeah because of the MRIs and the CT scans it's like well there's joints and it's connected and if they glued it together there's no obvious places where they clued it together with the I think it was the bigger ones monster hot pull pull the images up with monster hot monster hot's the weird one but again I've heard people who are it's pregnant no there's one that supposedly yeah but one of the weird things is that people that understand anatomy I've looked at the bones of the foot and say no this is like this is not how it would work they're

1:52:37pieced together this is fake but how do you know if you're talking about something that's not a human like what I don't understand that it's outside of my wheelhouse exactly but the but the images themselves are fucking strange as shit man yeah like they're really weird they just need genetic testing and I believe that's going on yeah I believe that's going on too but I don't know who to fucking believe the other thing that's really weird about Peru is not only do they have these things these weird looking sort of mummy creatures that look like something non-human but they also have this ancient artwork tradition of these three fingered three-toed creatures that like these are like tapestries and paintings that are really fucking old yeah that have these things in them yeah yeah the nascalines yeah the nascalines are just actually AI and covered more of them yeah I should have found that big one oh really was that recently yeah three hundred and three previously

1:53:37unseen nascalines in Peru fucking all weird really weird stuff the Peruvian stuff is really strange that the elongated skulls in Peru are really weird yeah like whatever started the headbinding thing like I wonder if that's the emulate yes so that's what they think the thing about the snow I don't know you saw you seen some of the weirder skulls some of them yeah they're like really really like they don't have that sagittal line that we have that line in the skull and their their brain capacity is far larger than us 20 to 30 percent larger so it's not just that it was like a manipulated skull like this seems to be a completely different type of person that's right that's right like is it a missing link or yeah show them some of the weirder skulls that they found some of the weirder elongated skulls you're like you just have a can imagine running into this person like if you met this person and someone with a 30 percent larger brain capacity like what does that mean like what could are these people able to communicate telepathically do they have a

1:54:42far higher level of intelligence then yeah the synaptic densities the same as humans are better like I'm sure they're crazy intelligence right 30 percent is nuts that's in this size of their skull is fucking crazy and some of them are like tiny bodies but enormous skulls oh that's right I think I know a picture you're talking about yeah it's pretty weird yeah it's weird stuff and then one of my friends recently went down to Peru to see these things and he said the skulls are missing now and that yeah there's apparently that are real there so here's some of them like look at that one on the left like what in the hell man imagine if you met that guy like look he doesn't have that same sagittal line that we have and have they've been assessments of like how long you'd have to do head binding or it's not head binding this sort of disease yeah it could be an anomaly it could be some sort of a genetic thing but like look at what the dude would look like down there below like what the fuck imagine meeting that guy he's talking you telepathically whoa whoa whoa whoa

1:55:42hey you never know that might be a thing sooner than you think I don't know I mean that image right there that skull that is a real elongated skull that they found in Peru that is not just the product of head binding there's no way it's too big like head binding doesn't increase the capacity it just flattens out the shape that's a weird fucking head man oh that makes sense I know you're talking about yeah unless there's some sort of disease and I'm not an expert that's really certainly could be it could be some sort of a genetic anomaly some sort of a mutation yeah who knows and a trait that was passed on like there's those people that live in Africa that have like ostrich feet have you seen that no I'm learning a lot yeah there's this weird group of people in Africa that have this very specific trait where they do not have five toes on each foot instead they have these long strange appendages that almost looks like like four or five toes smashed together but much longer interesting they call them like I think they call them ostrich feet

1:56:47it's very weird but like it's in this one tribe and many people in this tribe have it they're rampant yeah show some images that it's fucking yeah really strange so you you see that and you go okay well that clearly is a genetic anomaly maybe the head thing is a genetic anomaly as well yes like look at that ostrich footed people of Zimbabwe interesting yeah fucking strange man so look at the people down there look what they look like scroll yeah how weird is that wow so they have two big long things that are way longer than a toe and they spray out and that's what their toes are and it's like this tribe multiple people in this tribe have it what if they've sequenced the genome of the I see there's some sort of a genetic abnormality well there certainly is right because it seems like are their fingers normal it's passed down no no so they've got the issue with

1:57:49their hands as well they're missing yeah no it seems like that it's with their hands as well yes look at her left hand it's almost like an elephant Titus kind of looking very fucking weird whatever it is so you could imagine if that exists and exists with multiple people in this tribe that a large head anomaly could exist as well so so you have the tall graze the small graze you have more than one version of reptilian from what I understand yes I'm not an expert on that what have you heard that I'll defer some look a little more humanoid from what I understand once again I'm hitting like the limit of my you know high confidence knowledge more humanoid but still reptilian yeah yeah okay and tall and tall seven foot plus big giant reptiles run the world which I thought was so funny because you know that's like the skitzo thing you hear out like in public you know the big the big reptiles lizards yeah turns out that that's kind of a thing and I just strange but once again

1:58:51I I personally have not seen any of that's that is one of the weirder theories of ancient civilizations as well that during the time of the dinosaurs like it let's let's imagine that human beings weren't the first intelligent creature let's imagine that there was an intelligent reptile and that this intelligent reptile had formulated a very complex society a hundred million years ago like why not like if dinosaurs existed a hundred billion years ago why not some sort of a reptilian type creature just we have a tiny amount of fossils just from the amount of dinosaurs that existed that's right and if these things had some sort of sophisticated disposal of bodies if they had burning rituals or if you know if they never let their bodies just lay around and become fossils we would never find them exactly was that called a not soaring it's like there's a there's a there's a theory about that the people have I'm not sure so that's how it makes particular it's a wacky theory because there's no evidence at all it's just like what if you know there was an intelligent race of reptiles

1:59:54that existed alongside dinosaurs yeah that might be a thing and it that's also once again going back to bioengineered is it sourced from earth genomic stockpile did they visit us from somewhere else I don't colonize this planet yeah I mean they clearly have advanced technology but I don't understand the origin but you're convinced that this is a actual phenomenon that this isn't just to cover up for some top secret no I would know because I was in the position to know all that kind of stuff I'm like Elon Musk I actually had all those clearances and we talk about Elon if you want but interesting guy but the the phenomenon is so old we've been seeing the same objects for so long it rolls out any kind of you know modern cold war technology now have there been oops where people have seen our stuff yes I won't get into that because that is a national security thing and

2:00:56I'm you know that's I'm very deferential to that but there's clearly a genuine presence the phenomenon on z old if you listen to the 1952 recording that representative Burleson got declassified from MIT Lincoln Labs you'll hear Edward Rootbelts who eventually defected from blue book because he realized it was a cover up in the 50s but he talked he was talking to the beacon hill study team at Lincoln Labs saying hey the the Air Force has rolled out mass hysteria we're seeing shit during you know nuclear sites tests oh by the way in the white sands holoman Air Force Base area we we caught multiple objects traveling an estimated 3,500 miles an hour we can't roll out maybe some sort of meteor shower but we're seeing a lot of weird shit moving at velocities that we don't know and in the recording it talks about like we've rolled out you know foreign programs etc this is an internal recorded briefing between Lincoln lab scientists and the Air Force that just got

2:02:00released in the recent tranche and so that rules out a lot of human activity and so the the thought experiment or the the kind of the path I lead people it's like okay are you a p real well of course people have seen it will be you know more inclined to saying yes but if you look at the the whole tapestry of information to include orbs that are costing the federal government as we speak and there's a whole task force looking at it right now between ODNI and department of war etc and okay so it's real they're interacting with man so you don't think the federal government at one point tried to acquire some empirical evidence of course they did of course they were they were covered shit but it is yeah so it's like once you cross that Rubicon you're like well that makes sense why crash retrievals could be a thing you think the government just passively studied it oh we did a secret blue book and we were just like you know imaging stuff now and no baby we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition we're gonna go get some of the shit when we get a

2:03:01chance when you know there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands for whatever other reasons so that's once you accept that it's like a whole new paradigm in your mind like holy shit and then all this crazy stuff we're talking about with Nordics and the beings it's it is wild but it's true like of course if you're recovering an artifact you're gonna get biological shit too and that's that's I think the place where the the public's like has a harder cognitive leap where it's so hard to conceptualize something you don't see day to day that's a living thing it's like even more wild than finding some new animal in the Congo or some deep sea creature in the bottom of the ocean like we don't even know it's you know 70% of the ocean or something like that hasn't even been mapped something like that I don't know the exact one you might be more than that and you know it it's just shocking because it's just it's it's but it's familiar at the same time you know a lot of it's bipedal and as the bilateral symmetry and it's just like what

2:04:04does this mean like it they're so similar are they organic life from another planet like how would evolve in such a similar way what are these like volume noem and probes that are sent with occupants that are bioengineered because they know on this m-class planet there's these homo sapiens sapiens creatures they look like this this and that and they tweak a couple things etc so it's I don't know all the answers to that and I wish I did because I'm sure the public you know has a you know a big desire to know that and I think eventually through the president's courageous actions that'll it'll come out so the intent of project blue book was clearly to obfuscate in us and you don't have to take my word for it I talk about a formerly classified australian joint intelligence organization document that was classified secret in 1971 written by a gentleman called Harry Turner who is the nuclear branch chief for the jio which is the australian equivalent of the defense intelligence agency d.i.a. and it's like page eight or seven through 18 of the document

2:05:07which is in the australian national archives the providence is impeccable. Harry Turner had a top-seater clearance clearly and had contacts at CIA in America and if you read a summary it's like yeah blue book was a facade the air force was fucking really concerned about this they wanted to figure out what was going on could they make use of whatever this technology is and they created this plan of ridicule and and disinformation unfortunately after the robertson panel in 1953 to dissuade the public from looking in on it because the america was afraid of that being used as a false flag by the Soviets and there was other kind of national security objectives and that's publicly accessible you can read it and that was from the australian government's perspective what the cover up was in 1971 looking back from late 40s the president at the time and that's essentially the the thesis of of Harry Turner so of course this is outside looking in he is very well informed and he traveled to the u.s. and talked to the c.i.a. a lot and so he he stitched

2:06:10together the puzzle in his mind of what he thought was going on what's also the statements of j alan hynek who left project blue book and talked openly about his role during project blue book was to dismiss any and all sightings as being either some sort of a natural occurrence like ball lightning or meteor showers or planet Venus or you know just a misunderstanding and that he believed after all of his years in project blue book that there was a real phenomenon it's me the we don't need the jingle twice stop it this is about vacation inflation and how price line negotiates amazing deals on hotels and rental cars seems like we just added yeah but i didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels and the price line at time to read the time line fine no one deals more deals then please stop twice line two she price line exactly and then after he left project blue book he became a

2:07:17uf.a researcher yeah a lot it was Donald key ho there's a lot of you know James Mcdonald dr. James Mcdonald and a lot of those OGs in this subject area that i only recently learned about because i haven't been following this until you know relatively recently realized it was real and it was just what do you know about the Richard Nixon Jackie leases story i don't know if that happened but based on nixon's personality and he he was knowledgeable on this topic that might have happened i don't know but i could see nixon doing that so well it's a it's a fun one and it's really particularly fun because Jackie gleason built a UFO house oh did he had another you didn't know that one no let me show you that house yeah the house is crazy it was for sale for a while we thought about buying it but where is it it's an upstate in New York i believe oh interesting um it is a very weird house is he built a house it looks like a flying saucer interesting we in the woods and apparently according to his ex-wife he was obsessed with flying saucers that's the inside but show the outside yeah no no the one down there yeah yeah jackie glee sap all people too there's

2:08:22separate buildings that he had on the property but it was like basically like a UFO themed property like what the hell's that Jackie interesting the fuck are you making his whole house look like UFOs it's very strange well in with nixon there's the whole story uh with Robert M. Nager and the promise of footage and and all that and from what I understand the MacArthur foundation was kind of the the cutout for that between the the White House and the filmmakers and obviously it didn't work out but so they were thinking about disclosure as far back as the nixon administration yes and I know of an assessment that was done for nixon basically saying it's gonna cause absolute fucking chaos and it's interesting that assessment right after that assessment watergate happened which is kind of very convenient and so I have some questions about that era as well because it seemed like there was some movement with nixon I don't know the rationale or why nixon wanted to do it but it seemed like there was some energy and that's what sucks is like so Trump's finally the first president to

2:09:25like overtly say I want all this shit out and like other presidents have failed and he he really has an opportunity I mean it's the same thing I go back to the the Hillary Clinton thing right so in prior to the 2016 election Hillary talked publicly and this is public record that if elected she would release the UFO files so what happened was you know John Podesta greenlit a called a climateization activity a popularization activity and you know that's why Tom DeLong got his advisors that's why general Macasm talked I mean it wasn't because general Macaslin Robert Weiss at Lockheed other people that's all in wiki leaks um just wanted to talk to Tom because he was a rock star and you know was infatuated by a celebrity and wanted to help on a sci-fi movie it was because they were given top cover to see Tom as a public figure who had the touch of the youth um rightly or wrongly I mean I once again there was an attempt and I'm not going to judge them better good but they were trying to prep the battle space

2:10:31prior to 2016 obviously Hillary didn't win uh Trump won and clearly that activity pivoted and you saw kind of the collapse of uh the original TTSA efforts in my opinion that's what I believe happened now the characters that were involved in that are happy to tell their side of the story or more information but from why understand they were trying to get you know Hillary there was an inside job to prep the battle space for Hillary um uh Jim Clapper and some other people that I know personally were providing some top cover and uh and that was going to be the thing so the Clintons were trying to do it back in the day I don't think that that's also just a political ploy to get people to want a vote for you oh oh certainly there's politics in that and obviously even in this current situation you know the president can use this for political insways and means whether making some threshold announcement for the upcoming midterms or by you know the 2028

2:11:32election cycle I mean it could be used in political ways too so but it is a real topic and the government has real information on it though so hmm okay so so we've covered the grays the tall grays the little grays the reptilians various forums the Nordic-looking Greek God-looking ones yeah and there's like a is now like a man to do uh in terms of the humanoid ones there's like different kind of from very human to clearly not human but humanoid-ish but like you said I have heard a called water cooler talk within those channels of like you said some sort of insect toy but I don't know anything about it if that exists I've heard you know like I said water cooler talk about it I'm open to that idea clearly because of all this other stuff but I don't have any knowledge of that is there any high confidence any detailed description of the number of different types of entities and beings I mean the program has that I mean I never have I never

2:12:35had access to anything I never had access no did anybody ever discuss it like how many they think there are is it upwards of ten there was it more is it 20 no specific numericles I only remember in passing having those discussions and of course I was sitting in senate chambers when that crazy meeting happened where I found out you know they wanted to physically hurt me but some of those were brought up in pass and but there wasn't like a here's the exact number and here's the whole you know organizational chart right I never got exposure like that so I unfortunately don't have that level of confidence on how everything is do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash deceased they were killed they were killed yeah so we killed them yeah they are mortal so how do we kill them yeah do we shoot them yeah we shot the reptilians yeah Jesus yeah that seems like a bad idea yeah I maybe we should like tell them to call your friends and come get picked up well it's the same thing is like if we force

2:13:38these craft down is that the best thing we should be doing if we force it down but it sounds like they were in a war with the grays yeah which is also by the way I realize fucking kooky talk but it sounds crazy but I swear to God I was in the most sensitive I believe you places in government where that discussion was happening with listen if it was real if it was real there's no way it doesn't sound kooky even if it's real I know I know and even though I've I know what I know I'm confident what I know but just understanding this like new normal that is eventually gonna come out it's just it still hurts my head honestly how could it not so um why did they do you know why they killed the reptilians uh instead of just telling the caller homies they pose the threat they posed a threat oh so it was defending itself yeah was a giant reptile yeah so at some point that story will come out I'm sure the people who were in some of those events will probably speak publicly at some point so it posed a threat like it tried to attack the soldiers yeah it's

2:14:43I'll let the people who were there tell their story telling a little bit of it so I mean it's just to pose a threat and uh you know a uh us personnel started you know getting hurt and dying and so so us personnel was killed by these reptilians yeah I know it's crazy man but what like how many people were killed I don't know the exact numbers and once again I was like a fight yeah I hope fight broke out yeah and I hope through this process some of those people are allowed to speak publicly about it so you can just hear it from the horses mouth not through me second hand you know bro boy what I would like to talk to someone who shot a reptile you never know you may imagine talking to some guy who shot a seven foot reptilian I mean you think you want to talk to the guy who killed bin Laden that's interesting talk to the guy who killed the fucking seven foot reptilian that tried to kill people yeah or was killing soldiers I know it sounds so goofy that I know while you're saying it sounds like this is and this is one of the reasons why people don't like talk about it because it makes you look like a fool think about me like I was a

2:15:47very serious intel officer I had access to the most sensitive stuff like cover I was working on covert action activities all this and then all of a sudden I'm inundated with this ecosystem and I'm having to explain this you know to you know members of congress you know my classify testimony and it's just like I sound like a fucking crazy person yeah but but once again it's true and I know who I talk to I know what I saw and and I you know I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes and and this is a real reality man it's it's I hope people look back at this interview and are like yeah Dave was fucking really put his out of line you know it sounds strange but it's not nearly as strange as the universe itself universe itself is beyond strange the the the infinite nature of it the fact that there's stellar nurseries and black holes like that's like what's dark matter nobody really there's no consensus on that there's whips and all this other other theories yeah the whole idea of the universe is fucking kooky shit and so

2:16:48these beings this is like very minor level of kooky in comparison to what we know when you think about it you look at all the credible military witnesses that have had encounters at nuclear sites I mean you even look at the Mario woods and Michael Johnson case up at Ellsworth Air Force Base in the 70s the Jesse Michaels just and it's like think about those military personnel like you saw the emotion in their face talking about like I can't believe I'm talking about a gray pushing some sort of probe in me and it's like they're even more uncomfortable than myself because they are claiming that they experienced that and you look at Robert Hastings book book UFOs and nukes and all the different encounters military personnel have had sober trained observers that are not drunk on duty they're not high and and I've had unbelievable high level serious people in and out of government privately pull me aside and tell me about their personal experiences and like they

2:17:49you're the only person I can tell you I can only tell my wife because I had this thing this happened this happened I thought I was losing my mind but this really happened and it was and it's it's I think a lot a bigger part of the populace I think has had experiences than statistics would tell you just because of the stigmatization of the topic you know yeah I mean I don't know very many people that have had encounters but all of them are very reluctant to talk about it oh yes and especially people with like credible jobs yeah and it's the same thing like there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are very credible supporting me talking to people behind the scenes the bolster my efforts and they're like they I could never you know be public like you and so I'm like trust me I don't want to do this either like I I'd like to you know go back to work in the executive branch put my uniform back on and uh go kill terrorists I used to hunt war lords like I did a lot of crazy shit I used to do hostage rescue do the overwatch for that with certain jaysock elements I've had I've done a lot a serious crazy shit in my career unfortunately a lot of

2:18:49it was traumatizing and you know got PTSD from it but um yeah it's just a lot of people still even at where we are right now in the movie so to speak where we're on the threshold of possibly president trump succeeding and his team getting this information out there if they can you know uh broker a way ahead with the elements called of the deep state that are that are holding on and and it seems crazy like well well but couldn't the White House just you know break down the door like why is there pushback all that well you think about like mk ultra and how Richard Helms will suddenly got lead to destroy the records and the only reason why we know of mk ultra is seymour herch right the new york time story there was a leak to the times then uh frank church and other people got uh information from whistleblowers and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed um in 1973 through 75 and and also what they call the what's it called family jewels crown jewels where uh c.i. director's messenger wrote down like all the bad stuff the c.i.

2:19:56was doing that like you know we were gonna make sure this stuff doesn't come out and then there was like a 1964ish c.i.a inspector general report that was classified and clearly wasn't given to congress and that's the only reason we know about mk ultra it was reluctantly there was an oopsies you know and and part of this went public and and so i guess there's some historical parallels to to my jury and and stuff on this issue but and and once again mk ultra like they had a drag c.i.e. i had a con they found all this other bad stuff the heart attack gun um all the stuff in the church committee hearings and you know the operation midnight climax then there was um what's funny man i'm gonna laugh about that one that's the brothels yeah what was it oh well yeah it's very n.a.p. people acid well and then um you just saw there was a story coming out where they like sprayed the city of san francisco in 1976 that was just out in sf gate um see how they could spread disease yeah and then yeah and then you had a mocking bird where they had people on the payroll and and it's like okay that's kind of ethically dubious because it's domestic but influence

2:20:59foreign powers okay smith muntdact in 1948 violation sort of you know on and on and on so but i think what people really have a hard time comprehending is that if this is real and if we have been visited why doesn't everyone know about it already why haven't they made it themselves known why don't we yeah why and then there's also this weird thing if anybody that's actually experienced it like if you have a novel experience if you are going through you know you're going through a national park in Utah and there's no one out there and then all of a sudden some discs shows up hovers over you lands some strange creatures you know come out of it talk to you telepathically get back in the disc and take off many of the missing four one one stuff that out there oh yeah i had that guy close or folded i don't know the answer to that and i think so why isn't this more pervasive i would say it's reasonably pervasive but we see these craft using cover concealment deception techniques such as signature management right like think of the cling on bird of prey cloaking right we we have

2:22:00seen that and and so they're they're masking their signature but like as jock valet we'll say there's some sort of control system it's like a show and display thing as a stimulus for a lot of this and then also a why don't they over it we interact that gets into like the exopolitica this i certainly i'm not conversant in that yet i hope to learn more as the public the learn more about the objectives why they're here why there hasn't been overt contact but clearly interactions with you know the secular nation state governments and well what's the arrangement i don't know the answer to that's and and so there's war as it's like the prime directive in star track right where the oh they're pre warped civilization we observe we're interested here we're studying the planet but we're not going to overtly influence their development because that's unethical according to our standards of behavior and norms and rules of engagement you know like it isn't star track for example well also just to avoid any sort of unbelievably catastrophic just upheaval

2:23:04of society you would do it very slowly like it's being done exactly like today the way it's being discussed is very different than the way it's being discussed 20 years ago right so 20 years ago is 2016 we hadn't had or 10 years ago is 2016 we hadn't had the New York Times story yet the New York Times stories 2017 that changed everything i think 20 10 years before that you talked about this stuff you were a fucking idiot and a cook this is a cottage industry and i also going back to the kind of the pattern of life in this so to speak i think the nature of the interaction was more overt and antiquity so something changed at some point in human history where going back to Greek gods and you know the in anarchy whatever ends up being true we'll find out i guess in this process that seems more overt they're like little you know mass kind of interactions but then i'm sure you've seen those ancient those ancient paintings that it looks like a guy sitting in a craft that has a fire behind it he's flying through the sky yeah like what the fuck is that yeah i'm not

2:24:08full uh... cherry to the gods or whatever that book but like i think there's probably a happy medium that ends up being accurate and but it looked at the nature of the interaction is that mean a different group of intelligence right and how many of them are there right and there's like this new generation i don't know the answer to that but it does seem if you pattern a life at the nature of their show and display their concealment deception their their force presentations so to speak you know the use kind of military talk has changed and clearly they're they're less likely to do anything major negative or positive right whatever is on is there a consensus as to their origin because i know that or is it do they vary wildly like there's a like tempershedders talked about the ocean there is yes the we know a lot about that and what do we know about that well like be careful because it gets into sensitive navy underwater things and there's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations large don't know when it got there so it's a large

2:25:16large like multiple city blocks type stuff yeah so there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean and it's like yeah do you know what the about the Baltic sea anomaly well yeah yeah yeah there's there's some interesting stuff there and once again i will allow that looks like the millennium deal with that one in our allies and adversaries so okay but you did say that there's multiple city blocks under the ocean yeah i will tell you underwater people i know they come from that community they're they're always like you know the movie the abyss Dave it's kind of a dock you drama and i'm like holy fuck you know that movie you know with that Harris back in 89 and so that kind of gives you a sense in a pop side kind of way for people to visualize there is large shit down there and it's like the origin is indeterminate i'm sure we know a little bit more i'm not privy to that and and the way we know things and track

2:26:19that that gets in a sense of national security stuff and um you know the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgement strategy the way it's been described to you are these large city blocks or whatever the hell it is under the ocean is this a waypoint is this a stopoff like a port a base stuff comes and goes okay so this is like where they observe and yeah i'm sure we've done an analysis a behavioral analysis on it and we probably figured out maybe the mission or whatever you want to call it so i don't know the answer to that i i'm as curious as anybody honestly so um one thing i wanted to talk to you about because it just recently started hitting the news uh or twitter at least if someone sent it to me uh this guy Matthew Brown saying that you uh tricked him in a sia up into revealing that there's bought you turned him into a whistleblower doing the story i didn't even know matt brown until right before the 2024 hearing i never met the guy while i was uh i sent to you jimmy i had to bring it up to

2:27:21you because a bunch of people yeah there's like some sort of mobile boost oh because i because i was at the shriever war game uh high level sell advisor that i i somehow made fake stuff and and and and the the briefing that that matt says he saw i've never seen i can't evaluate the contents of that and i didn't make anything um i've never made a hazing brief on this topic i made some fun briefs just to fuck with this some of my airman back in the day um some star trek related stuff and just for you know to but you're aware of this right so what is he what is he alleging he alleges invert and exposure he was cleaning up the file system on a classified system and i think it was like 2018 or something like that and you know he found this briefing um once again i met matt or talked him for the first time in like 2024 well after i left uh the intelligence community so i didn't even know he existed and um unfortunately i've never seen a briefing like

2:28:22that so i can't evaluate the the contents so um have you communicated with him after he said this oh oh oh sure yeah i mean just the in support making sure he has resources no but i mean after he said that you sioped him have you communicated with him this thing is that what it says i think that might have been people saying yeah other people saying okay in other word god news to me uh so that makes sense so that what what it is is other people alleging that that's how it went down yeah there's a lot of theories online about like myself and oh i'm being handled dude it's just me it's sad it's just me and like my bros and like there's higher up people like helping but unfortunately like nobody's telling me to do x y and z and obviously if the president wants me officially involved them happy but like you know if i'm just a dude you know doing what i need to do right so yeah um what other weirdness of it before we wrap this up what are the weirdness of it do you think people don't

2:29:23know about it hmm you know i think there's something to synchronisities and i don't have an answer why that happens it just like weird things just like happen or work out and and this is about as wew as i get and i just look at my own personal journey um you know i was in like the right place at the right time and so many instances in my career to learn certain things it would help me later and like you know uh met certain people at the right time and and of course you know there's like a uh analytical bias most humans have where they're describing meaning to certain interactions that are actually truly random statistically random right but i've talked to enough people that say the same thing and i just there's something going there's a there's like a hidden hand part of the phenomenon that i can't it's like a certain gen as a quai can't like point my finger on that i think is really interesting too but that's about as wew as i get i don't know so

2:30:24that is the nature of the fabric of the universe or do you think that this has something to do with extra trust i think that's like almost like going back to remote viewing because you know the stargate program growl flame all the different names it had like that was adjacent to the program why do you think we were doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on the same topic is because that's the key unlock to some of the technology potentially if you can figure out how to it's what like they call it like bci bring computer interface but like clearly there's some sort of organic to tech interface and it's clearly conscious in this base not the digress on your no but this is what bazaar said as well that there was no instruments and that these things control this with their mind it depends on the class of vehicle and like there's like really weird shit that we have no idea how it works to like oh that kind of looks familiar what's the weirdest of the really weird shit um i mean you just have like the eggs and stuff they're like usually on man usually and it's like oh is this like a probe it's just like a

2:31:27fucking egg you know like and um i know jake barber has talked about publicly recovering them you know and uh you know i heard i you know heard about that elsewhere people who were we're dealing with that it's just this kind of weird it's like there's a morpheus thing it's like the movie like a rival right you right that that's a great one is the yeah is the technology like embedded in the skin like what is going on here there's like no no obvious control surfaces like what's going on right so right um what what kind of timeline do you think we're looking at in terms of like really changing the world i think the the basic affirmation the threshold disclosure you know call it we're not alone we have stuff kind of thing it has to happen before trump leaves because i don't trust another president to fall through on the president's directive because you know it's the the the next administration can be like we're peeling that back baby we're not touching us again so of course i think he has to do it before he leaves office and if i were um advising the president and if

2:32:30there the team's listening i would do it at least six months before the election just so there's some sort of recovery period and kind of uh and whatnot but uh i'm just the dude obviously i wanted as soon as possible like most americans listening to this how do you envision that something like that would take place would they have a broadcast with a show video and explain that was a plan at one point for a previous administration as they were going to have like one of those like government Bush administration with the how put off days no this was uh hw oh yeah and so i'm sure the video sucked it was probably has some synthwave government you know film from like the 1989 like doobie you know and it was probably going to be horrible and dry but there was going to be this like audiovisual kind of a companion to some sort of announcements now i don't know all the the specific details after that um clearly there has to be a physical rollout for god i hope that video exists

2:33:31so there in the archive somewhere we can watch it after disclosure i don't we need to have like a throwback like what you know see the old shit what have you think about like how long it's been that people have like slowly become more and more aware of this it's it seems like a long time but our lives are very short yeah and the reality is if this thing this this phenomenon has co-existed with human beings and i guided us aided us in some way and that's why i don't think people should be too fearful i mean obviously there's a year in yang in the universe there's malevolent benevolent but clearly there's some homie estates is going on right now and there's been this called cohabitation for the lack of a better way to describe it and and and clearly nothing do you think that happens some of this is in conjunction with a i becoming sentient and that this was a part of the process i don't know that to be a fact however i like i said it earlier in the interview i am fearful that a i's going to figure some of this shit out whether it be technology

2:34:35stuff yeah or um the factor we're not alone just by looking at all the disparate databases and correlating data um especially if it gets connected to any sort of genetic record medical record sensing system and i think that's a real um threat that if i were to advise the white house they need to think about that like third party unexpected disclosure pathway that super intel artificial super intelligence provides both from a technology risk perspective but also revealing some of this too and and once again uh you know that artificial silicon based a i's like uh is that the infrastructure that we need to communicate to some of this organic intelligence too because it's able to learn and figure out modalities of communication i don't know so it's pretty crazy okay it's a lot to absorb did i know thank you very much for being here man i appreciate it's always great to talk to you and thank you for all your hard work in exposing all this stuff i mean i really wonder like if it wasn't for you doing all this how much would we know i don't know man i just i

2:35:38hope this is the last time i got to send it on on an interview and uh it's been tough really tough like it's been debilitating i've gone through a lot you know it's been in danger and i've done a lot of stuff for this country over the years but i'm honored to be that guy i guess and and risk at all to you know unveil this truth because it really was a core secret in the United States so i certainly think it moves the needle yeah i appreciate it thank you all right back buddy