No Dogs in Space: New York Dolls Pt I

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1:25Part of me thinks like we could just fucking sky know up part of me thinks we could just start to and just be like goddamn it. Hey, we're back. Yeah, why don't we talk about being back? Yeah, this is our first episode back. Yes, it is. Okay. So why don't we talk about being back because this is our first episode back? Yeah, let's do that. Let's talk about this being our first episode back our first episode in years. Oh my gosh. Yes, so much has happened. Has it? Yeah, well, I mean, not to us. I mean, like other people, I'm sure the world current events. But yes, and we are back and we are doing, of course, what we always want to do, which is punk. Punk two point oh, ladies and gentlemen, we're fucking here. My name is Marcus Parks. This is no dogs in space. We are here for punk two point oh, we're starting it off with the band that people have asked us to do. Oh, so many times we've told the story bits and pieces here and there, but we're finally going to tell it in a massive four part series starting today.

2:30That's right. I'm Carolina Hidalgo. Some call me Carolina danger Hidalgo. Certain doctors offices know me as that. And I am also here with you today to talk about this. We are telling the story in four parts and that is it. That is all I'm contractually obligated to do or that I want to do. There's a possibility we might have a point five here. We might. This is a possibility. It might be a replacement type of situation because this story, the more I look into it, like this story just crosses with so many other amazing movements in New York City that were happening in the early 70s. There is so much meat to this story. There's a lot of meat on his bone. All right. So let's start chewing. Oh, it's about to say like let's do it now. Let's go down. Yeah. Now one can make the argument that this band was the greatest rock and roll group to ever exist. Not the best. Definitely not the most talented. But the greatest. Yes. They were a band who distilled the music in the attitude down to its very essence during not only their performances and their records,

3:36but also in the way they lived every hour of their lives for better or worse created by five kids from each of the outer burrows that's Brooklyn Queen, statin island in the Bronx all four are represented. This band rode the wave of chaos created by the decay of early 70s Manhattan. They absorbed and translated the city's dirt sleaze, crime trash and utter insanity as well as its art and culture into pure rock and roll. This band's body of work was a collage born of intuition and good taste, which combined the sonic screams of first generation rock and roll guitarist like bow deadly and Eddie Cochran with the confidence and attitude of the 1960s girl pop groups. I love how you put that together. That's what this band is. And finally they just sprinkled the whole mixture with a dash of British glam. Oh, yes, definitely. But even though their taste was impeccable, their actual talent was not on the same level.

4:37They were the archetype of the punk band that didn't give a fuck about precision. Hell, half the time their instruments weren't even in tune. You kids don't know how lucky you are with these electric guitar tuners, but that wasn't even close to the point. For this group, it was their energy and passion that inspired countless others in first New York City and then the world to think if these assholes can do it, what the fuck am I waiting for? That's right. If those assholes could do it, anybody could do it. Yeah, these five New Yorkers had actually tapped into a vitality that they themselves couldn't keep up with. And as such, it's been said by the old New York cincers that this group peaked before they even signed a record contract. Oh my god, that is so hipster. That is so New York. Yeah, no. I loved them before they started a band. You should have seen them at elementary school. They were awesome. Yeah, they were cool then. Well, amongst that scene though, this band started a revolution without even trying.

5:38It was expression as infection. It was DIY at its most fabulous because if you know nothing about this band, their fashion sense was sickening. Fierce, Dustin, New York was gagged, Mama. Yes, I loved it. I loved it all. Yeah, and we're going to be getting deep into the drag scene in New York City starting next week. But these five men dressed as women or at least dressed highly fam. I would say highly fam. Highly fam, they did that because it was their instinct to do so. And by doing that, they personified the idea that in New York City, you can be whatever the fuck you want. And if you hit the same sweet spot these boys hit, you can have more fun than you ever thought possible. Now while the band was indeed straight, they dressed, acted and presented themselves to the world in a way that was far more drag than they wanted. And they were far more drag than glam, at least in our opinion. But that's not to say that a feminine edge or drag elements were new and rock and roll. People forget that some of the earliest rock stars were extremely flamboyant. That's a good reason why in an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race, the drag queen Kennedy Davenport was able to surprise everyone by doing an excellent and filthy drag interpretation of the famously filthy little Richard.

6:50I loved it so much. I can't even do it just this. It's one of the best stash game performances ever. But where the British glam boys at the time were Foppish Pop and J's. This bad excuse me, Frazier. What? I'm sorry, Niles. Foppish Pop and J's. Yeah, I would describe the British glam. Are you David Bowie's father? Well, if he's Foppish Pop and J's or something, let's do a fall for my ass. He's Brixton. But while the British boys were, I stand by it, Foppish Pop and J's. This band is one author put it. They took the glam out of glam rock and they made it cedar and far more threatening. To me, that means they made it more American. And I think this band really does represent what America's supposed to be in more ways than one. For example, two of the founding members of this band were first generation immigrants from Egypt and Colombia. And in my opinion, one of the things that makes America special is natural born shitheads collaborating with wild imaginative immigrants to create something revolutionary.

7:53Definitely. I mean, look at us. Look at us. Yeah. Head and imaginative. Okay. Yeah. I guess I did kind of walk in there. Yeah. You told me to do it. But that's an affincom. The band goes here in America. The people who represent its purest ideals with the most intensity are the same people who get pushback from the cowards who are definitely afraid of what freedom actually means. And this band was certainly a victim of this paradox. So while we look at the cover of this band's groundbreaking debut album with a whole band is dressed in maximum drag and think, I want to hear that record. These musicians could have been arrested for female impersonation in 1973 if that photo shoot had been done in the wrong state. And furthermore, the music contained in this record was certainly rock and roll, but it was also campy and it was also feminine. All this put together coded this band's debut as gay to a lot of radio DJs who were also probably a little freaked out by their own sexual reaction to the luscious lips of lead singer David Johansson.

8:59That's right. In our our own generation, we had a similar thing, not dressed in drag, but a lot of people thought the members of Hansen were girls. And there was a bit of confusion there as well. That there was, but it did nothing to stop and Bob from being played every 10 minutes on the radio. We came a long way. We have come a long way. Bob, really? And you know, sometimes it does feel like we're a million miles away from that sort of bullshit radio DJs freaking out over guys wearing makeup and dresses in a photo shoot is a far cry from where we are today. We're the most popular show on MTV by far is an actual drag competition that's in what season 17? I'd least and it's all over the world too. K, Australia. I mean, we've seen them all. Yeah, we had all the 11 seasons, all stars. It's tedious. It's gotten very tedious, but it's massive. It's huge. But as we all know, there are plenty of assholes today who want to bring the days of old back.

10:03These are people who either don't know the meaning of the kind of reckless abandon our band today represented or they understand its power completely and it scares them to their cowardly core. So he's one member of this band put it every generation finds something intriguing about this band and I think that's certainly true. So maybe in order to move into the future, we need to look into the past. And I think that every single one of us can find something inspiring about the total freedom, the aggressive rebellion and the utter chaos. That was the New York Dolls. Yes!

11:10You can hear all the chaos and the fun. Yeah, so much fucking fun. That's what this band was all about. So much fun produced by Todd Rungren. Like it's fucking such a good album. I know. Todd was part of the fun. Yeah, we forced to talk about Todd Rungren again against our will. I don't, I think he's fine. I have no problem with him. Well, let me read more about him. Anyway, let's, but first let's get started on our sources, right? And the main book sources are first of all too much too soon, the makeup breakup of the New York Dolls by Nina Antonia, as well as there's no bones in ice cream, sylvanes, sylvanes, story of the New York Dolls by Sylvanes, Sylvanes, Sylvanes.

12:12We have Dave Thompson. Guess there's no bones in ice cream is one of the best rock bios that I've read in years. Love it. It's so good. And also we also use Johnny Thunders in cold blood, the official biography by Nina, Nina Antonia again. And then there was trash, the complete New York Dolls by Chris Needs and Dick Porter. We used that for extra details. All of these books have different accounts of what's basically the same kind of story. And I have to say I've worked really hard to done my best to read all of these books and check out plenty of interviews and articles online and make some hard and some not so hard editorial decisions on who's telling the truth. So we're going to do the best we can here and I will give the complete list of sources at the end of this series as well as we're going to post it on our Instagram no dogs pot. Yeah, I would say not since the studious have we had to make so many judgments on what is true and what is probably true. And what might be true? We spent a whole afternoon talking about if Johnny Thunders lied about one thing.

13:15That's an afternoon. You're wondering how why it took so long to get here. What's the thing that Iggy Pop and Johnny Thunders shared that makes the truth so difficult? We'll find out. It's heroin market. Okay, so let's get started with the story of the New York Dolls from New York. And except actually we're going to start with Sylvain Sylvain, the guitarist and co-founder of the New York Dolls who actually isn't originally from New York. No. Sylvain was born Sylvain Mizrahi on Valentine's Day, 1951 in Cairo, Egypt. Yeah, he's Egyptian by birth, but his mother was of Syrian descent and his father's family were from Turkey, but they all spoke French. I'm not sure why, but according to Sylvain, that was the primary language for many Jewish middle Eastern people at that time. Sylvain, he spent his childhood in Cairo in a very upper class, I would say downright wealthy family, like nice penthouse apartment with a car and chauffeur, the works, everything.

14:20But Sylvain wasn't like, he wasn't a fancy kid, he wasn't a rich e-rich. All he cared about at that time as a young boy was going to the movies and watching Western American singing cowboy movies. We couldn't get him away from that. Like movie starring Roy Rogers, which apparently he was an actual singing cowboy. Yeah, we drive through the Roy Rogers Memorial interchange every day between the office and home. I forget that I hold my breath and pray a minute every time we do that. So anyway, Sylvain, he loved watching the singing cowboys sit on their horses while playing their guitar and I guess fixing fences. Yeah. That's all cowboy-ness, trust me. I've never seen a singing cowboy movie. Well, actually, no, the three amigos. Yes. I mean, that's more Mexican-American Canadian singing cowboy movie, but you know, she'll be coming around in the mountain when she comes. That's right, Newman. Okay, well, that's a singing bush movie, but still.

15:23Okay, back to Sylvain, back to Sylvain. Pretty soon after a few cowboy movies, Sylvain is like, at this point, he's dying for a guitar, right? He wants to play like his hero Roy Rogers. And after lots of begging and insisting and being really annoying about it, Sylvain's father finally gets him an ood. An ood. Yes, not a guitar. I'll get an ood. And Sylvain's dad is like a wealthy banker. It's not like he couldn't afford it, but hey, in Egypt, you get an ood. Yeah, yeah. You want a thing with strings that makes noise. You get an ood. Yes, it's an Arabic type of guitar. Holy not a guitar, but it's what Sylvain has got to work with, basically, which is cool. But then, unfortunately, in 1956, Sylvain singing cowboy dreams kind of washed away when an international conflict changed the course of five year old Sylvain's life forever. And that conflict was the Swiss canal crisis.

16:23Yeah, it affected a lot of people. So many singing cowboy dreams were swept away by the Suez Canal crisis. That's why there's a singing cowboy shortage to this day. The Suez Canal crisis, it's extremely complicated. But basically, the Egyptian dictator Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal in 1956, which took ownership of the canal away from French and British interest. The French and British therefore planned military action to retake the canal and possibly depose Nasser in the process. This is what Israel got involved in the operation because Nasser had been behind anti-Israeli blockades and raids. And Israel had every reason to want Nasser deposed. So Israel led the attack against Egypt in 1956. But when the operation got bogged down, the coalition withdrew from Egypt after just a few months. With the coalitions withdrawal, Nasser could claim victory against the colonial powers. That's true. He won a political war. Like they loved him for it.

17:23Massive, massive, massive political win for him. And this led to a massive increase in both Egyptian nationalism and because Israel was involved, anti-Semitism all across Egypt. And since Sil's dad was working in a bank that used the British pound, this is how granular it all got. Neither of these things were good news for the Mizrahi family's future in Egypt. Yeah, Silvein's dad lost his job when the bank he was working at for 25 years. And his dad was hospitalized. So Silvein's family, as well as other Jewish families and communities, they couldn't go out shopping or walking down the streets without being harassed or being called nasty names. Like you said, Marcus, nationalism was taking over. It felt that dangerous to not be born and bred Egyptian at that time or not be Jewish for that matter. And Silvein and his family were Jewish. His grandfather was a rabbi. That's pretty Jewish. Absolutely. So soon the money was running out. So Silvein's parents, you know, they were very smart about this.

18:23They started making clothes in their living room to make ends meet. And these people were rich, at least until very recently they were rich. But they were also very hard working. So Silvein's parents took out some books on sewing and started making shirts and pants on their diving room table. Their fancy rooms and their fancy apartment became like a work room to make and sell clothes to just get by. Money was scarce, but then when food started becoming scarce, Silvein's family decided it was time to leave Egypt for good. So after months of writing letters to every foreign embassy they could think of, they finally got one response from France. Yes, because they could speak French. Yeah, that's well, that actually did help. Yes. So Silvein's eighth birthday, he and his family had settled in a small apartment on, I'm sorry about this, Rue Cade in Paris. Rue Cade. Yeah, exactly. It spells cadet. Yeah. But it's Rue Cade. So within like what, a little over a year they went from living in a penthouse luxury apartment in Cairo to a single room hotel with nothing but a bucket to wash in.

19:30The toilet was down the hall. Jesus. And there were four of them. Yeah. And then they had a baby. There were five of them at some point. Yes. Three kids, two adults. And this is all definitely germane to the New York Doll Story. Oh, absolutely. Because Silvein's in his autobiography, he does say he remembers Rue Cade as a crowded smelly, rat infested, grossest street. But there was the Foley Berger. Right? Foley Berger. Yes. Berger. The Foley Berger. That's right. Little Silvein lived right around the corner of Paris's most famous cabaret hall. Well, I think the second most famous because the Mulan Rouge. That's number one. That's number one. Okay. Gotcha. I've seen the movie and we all know this. So anyway, the Foley Berger was a sight to behold. It was. It was a sight to behold. Silvein never went inside because he was eight, nine years old, right?

20:31But he would stand at the door like the side door where the truck would like pull up and unload dozens of costumes, feather, sequins, and the most beautiful sentence. It was the first time Silvein had ever been exposed to glitz in glamor. This is art. This is expression. This is full of sequins. My God. Very shiny fabrics. Of course, a child would love this. Hell, I would love this. I would too. And this is important because Silvein said that when the New York dolls were first starting, that was exactly what Silve was thinking of. The feathers and sequins in the Foley Berger. I said so confidently. Silvein was mesmerized by the shiny fabrics and glitter. I mean, who is it? But he ended up never going to the God. Foley Berger. Because by the time he was like 10, 11 years old, Silvein and his family left Paris for a better opportunity in America. Yes, finally Silvein and his family touched down in New York City in 1962 and he immediately fell in love with it.

21:35Silvein loved all of it. The feel and smell of the streets, the energy, the gunpowder, volatility of it all. It was raw and a bit gross. Sure. But New York City had character. Silvein even said, for the first time since I left Cairo, Egypt, I felt like I belonged somewhere. Yeah. Because that's what it's supposed to be here. The feeling that wherever you come from, you belong. Yeah. That's New York. That's America. Yeah. Not only can you belong, but you can do anything. Absolutely. Anything is possible. Now, when the Silvein family finally landed in the outer burrows, so quickly discovered the reason why so many members of the future punk people were there. Silvein was the first of the future punk scene who survived the chaos of Manhattan in the 70s. He discovered why those guys were from the outer burrows, why they were from Brooklyn and Queens. See, before his family settled in Queens, Silve first lived in Brooklyn, where violence and actual fist fights were a normal part of life for both genders.

22:36Silvein said he actually knew a girl who had raised her blades in her beehive to slice up the hands of any girl who tried grabbing a fistful of hair during the scuffle. That's actually kind of smart. It's incredibly smart, but it's also wildly violent. Yeah, that was in the silence of the lambs, you know, the sequel in the beginning of the movie with Julie and more. Really? Yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, watch out if you touch her head because it wasn't in the 1960s. It was a sequel that was poorly made. Yes, it was, except for the end when the he ate Ray Leotus brain. That was actually very cool. I wish that was the whole, yeah, I was about to say that. Oh, I got to be on everything in comment. Yeah. Now, Silve certainly had to deal with a fair amount of xenophobia and racism in Brooklyn and Queens. Trust me. Queens ate the paradise that everyone thinks it is, but he found refuge in the incredible music that permeated the burrows throughout the early 60s. Silve partly absorbed this music through the jukebox at the bowling alley across the street from his school.

23:37The songs that he heard on that jukebox would make up the musical DNA of not just Silvein, but every New York doll. And while each of them would discover these songs in their own way, it was the bowling alley where Silve fell in love with the girl groups of the early 60s. Cannot be overstated how important these fantastic groups are to the New York dolls and to punk in general. Now, in my opinion, the way that every member of the dolls idolized these girl groups from a young age probably made them a lot more comfortable exploring their feminine sides later on. But even though their later pinchant for women's clothing would make people assume they were gay, the band dressed the way they did mostly because the girls they liked responded to it positively. And their love for girl groups ran on much the same logic. For Silve, the songs that the girl groups sang had a sensual edge that he recognized before he even knew what sex was. This was the music that the girls in the bowling alley liked. And later, Silve would say that there was no piece of music sexier in this world than the isolated drawings that kicks off the Ronets classic debut single.

24:46Be my baby. Oh, yes, he landed it perfectly. The night we met, I knew I needed you so. And if I had to change, I'd never let you go. So I want to say you love me. I'll make you so proud of me. We'll make the turns their head. Every place we go so far to leave. Be my baby. I want to know. Be safe in the door. Be my baby. Be my baby. Oh, where's my hair brush?

25:47Maybe a Ronnie Spectre series sometime in the future. Absolutely. Sometimes somewhere, somehow. God, I love it. The girl groups, I love. It's one of my favorite genres out there. I love it. No one thing to keep in mind about the New York dolls was that they were a young band. Most were just barely out of their teens when they started. Like the Ramones, the dolls formed their first connections to each other when they were still just kids. Silso Vane continued to adapt to Queens as the 60s continued dodging bullies, fallen in love with them near every British invasion band that came along. And every once in a while, buying cough syrup for neighborhood heroin addicts at their request because he didn't know any better. Wow, you really buried the lead without him. He was doing all these, you were a man to science all that. And to fall in love with listening to the kinks and buying cough syrup for heroin addicts. Hey kid. But when Sil reached junior high, he finally found a friend that he could not only vibe with,

26:47but this was a kid who was an immigrant, just like Sil. The relationship did, however, begin in a very 1960s Queens manner. Yeah, Queens, baby. Remember, I'm originally from Queens. I remember. I was born in Queens, unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know. I moved from Queens after being born six weeks later. So I wasn't able to be raised in Queens like all these fun people. But this is interesting. This is really fun. Sil Vane went to Van Wick Middle School where he had to deal, like you said, bullies people picking on him. Sil Vane, Ms. Rahe, though he did manage to make a friend, a best friend. Yeah. One day at school, an older kid went up to Sil Vane at lunch and said, you're going to fight my brother today or else. Be there. 3 p.m. What? No, it's just, it's, you're going to fight my brother today or else. Be there. 3 p.m. He's a Colombian immigrant. Why aren't you just doing your natural accent?

27:48I am not, I'm not going to, okay, okay, okay, okay, you go on to the bike, my brother. No, no, that one's on me. Okay, that's okay. Let me just put the carol in the way. Can we do it together and say that Karate is going on me anyway. You're going to fight my brother today. Okay, older kid goes to Sil Vane. You're going to fight my brother, right? 3 p.m. And Sil Vane thought, who was that guy? And where is, be there. Where is there? And why do I have to fight someone? I don't even know. And Sil Vane, you know, he was hesitant. He's a teenager. He's like 14 at this time, but he wasn't going to punk out either. No. You know what I mean? He's at that age. 3 p.m. Sil Vane, who by then found out where there was, which was outside the school, also found out who he was going to fight, which was that kid's younger brother, Billy. So Sil Vane actually recognized him immediately. Like, oh, yeah, we have gym class together. We say, hi, sometimes. And obviously Sil Vane didn't want to fight Billy. And neither did Billy want to fight Sil Vane.

28:49Like, I think Billy was pushed by his older brother, Alfonso, because I don't know, edification, hazing, toughening him up. It happens. I was thrown to many small fight clubs by my older brothers growing up. They like it. It's funny to them. Wow. They just really enjoyed it. Older kids really love making smaller kids fight each other. I can't explain it. But I'm just saying that I had the exact same experience in rural Texas as these kids had in Queens in 1960. So let's just go ahead and say it's a universal human thing. OK. I just abused my dolls like a good sit from Toy Story. All right. So we're all a little different. But that's OK. I did that too. And even though I used my action figures. And even though Sil Vane didn't want to fight, they were going to fight. There was already a mob of kids around them in the circle chanting fight, fight, fight. You have to fight. So since they didn't want to lose face, Sil Vane and Billy just started dancing around a

29:51fighting ring. They would kick up dirt and fake punches until I think one of them finally threw a punch and connected. And then they both somehow fell backwards. I'm not sure. But that seems right. Yeah. Yeah. And once the crowd was satisfied, the boys helped each other up and said, you want to go? I'll walk you home. So they left. And that's how Sil Vane met the original drummer of the New York dolls. Billy Murcia. Yeah. Columbia and immigrant. Yes. Absolutely. There's not a lot of information on Billy Murcia out there. It's actually kind of hard to find stuff about his life and what he was like and stuff. But I can say with confidence that the few people who have talked about Billy all said that he was friendly, kind, funny, very funny, very energetic, which is good for a drummer. He's a drummer. And most of all, a humble and happy kid. Yep. He had what we call the drummer's personality. Yeah. So Billy Murcia, who's from Bogota, Colombia and the same age as Sil Vane at this time, he moved to America with his family just a year before they moved to Jamaica, Queens.

30:54And that's actually where he and Sil Vane would spend countless afternoons jamming together in Murcia's attic. Billy's parents were very supportive of all their kid streams. Even when Billy said, mom, dad, I'm going to be a drummer. And they said, great. It's a hard thing for parents to say it's too. Yeah, I know. They're like, feel free to practice. It'll be loud. That was really kind of them. It was. But then again, Billy also didn't have a drum kit back then. Like he just had one snare drum. And Sil Vane had a simple acoustic guitar that Sil Vane's family, his dad finally got him a real guitar. No more ood. Exactly. Yeah. The ood probably, he probably just chucked it off the passenger boat they were on on their way to parents or something. Oh, there it goes. There it goes. But that guitar actually, it lasted as long as the ood, I think, because before long Sil Vane got his hands on an electric guitar, and they five watt amp with a 12 inch speaker, which meant Sil Vane and Billy became too loud for Billy's parents' household.

32:01So they moved there what they call headquarters to the basement parking garage of Sil Vane's apartment building. They could play there all day with no one bothering them. So it was great. It's necessary. You truly don't know how bad two 14 year olds who barely know how to play guitar and drum sound. It's awful. Yes. I was one of those 14 year olds. It's really bad. But their headquarters was also not that great. The fumes of the car mufflers. They're like, are you, are you dizzy too? Are you dizzy too? The lack of heating, the stopping and moving over any time a car would enter the parking lot. Car, car, kind of thing. It wasn't sustainable. So eventually they were able to move their headquarters all one more time to Billy Murcius new house, which was bigger, lots of room for borders. That's what his parents would do for extra income. They would actually rent out rooms in their big house in Queens, which had a big ass basement as well. And they was there that still and Billy would crank up that five watt amp and play as hard and as loud as they could.

33:07Fingers bleeding in all to just one song, one song over and over again. Why about? Specifically by The Ventures. Now the New York Dolls with later become known is one of the most fashion forward bands in history. But this was not an affectation that the dolls cynically used to set themselves apart from the rest of the groups in New York. There weren't like for example, KISS who will get into in the second episode. They were a gene jacket band when they started. They were less we forget.

34:07Instead all the members of the dolls had their eyes on fashion from a young age. Because for them, fashion was another way to express themselves. And of course, if we're being honest, to attract girls. Billy, Murcia, and Sil Sulfane following the more outlandish trends of 1966 would go down to Greenwich Village when they were still in high school just to hang out wearing polka dotted shirts, checkered pants, and beetle boots. They looked fucking ridiculous because they would usually wear almost identical outfits. Yes, I loved how they made their pants so tight that they would stick their pants like they would put them inside out. And then they would tailor it really, really tight and then put it right back on and you would have to peel it off. Before long, Billy and Sil were designing their own clothes when they couldn't find what they wanted in stores. This is fucking DIY in 1966. Billy's sister and her girlfriends helped them sew their designs while Billy's mom gave in as well and knitted them whatever they wanted knitting.

35:08Because they were really picking the knits. But Billy and Sil weren't the only fashion forward kids at their high school. They noticed another kid out there that was of a similar style to themselves, although this kid was getting far more attention from the ladies. Oh, was it Bob Seager? Yeah, he's put on some night moves. Oh, nice. With his jet black hair, this kid, birth name Johnny Gonzalez was about as Italian as they come, Queens through and through, and all the best, and all of the worst ways. History, however, would know this kid better as Johnny Thunders, eventual lead guitarist for the New York Dolls and one of Punk's greatest guitar heroes.

36:11Johnny Thunders don't need no words, don't want money. All the people I've been telling, they can't get through to Johnny, they will never ever break his down. Johnny Thunders keeps for the world and goes on to find a way. That song, if it is an obvious, is called Johnny Thunder by the Kinks 1968. Just one, just one Thunder though. Yeah, only one, yeah, singular Thunder. It was Johnny, apparently, who thought to put the S on it. I was after he already went through Johnny volume, not a good alias. Makes for something he runs a stereo storm, Queens. Hey, Johnny volume stereo! Come on!

37:11Now, Johnny Thunders was to put it lightly, a complicated character. As Ivan, my former bandmate and Long Island, they've put it, Johnny checked every box that Italian Americans like my friend Ivan tried to avoid, like racism, domestic abuse, and surprisingly, considering the style of the New York Dolls, quite a bit of homophobia. But if you take Johnny Thunders out of the New York Dolls equation, you take the New York Dolls out of rock and roll history completely. And it'd be a damn shame if the story of the Dolls went untold and their music went unheard just because one of their members was a bad person who did and said shitty things. Yeah, Johnny Thunders is a shithead who did and say and do bad shitty things. You're totally right. Very bad. But as you said, he is important to this story, so we will continue in the story on what he contributed. Yeah. Because the thing is what he contributed the most as Sylvain Sylvain said, like what he lacked in, let's say, musical prowess was that he had, well, some sort of talent.

38:18He had looks, charisma, that it factor that made him a rock star. And Marcus, you told me once that Johnny Thunders is like a siren. And I get that a siren like from the ancient Greek story, the Odyssey, you know, be witching, but dangerous. Very much so. Be witching. Yeah, I mean, whether you know, you're gay, straight man, woman, there is something captivating about Johnny Thunders. Like just about his look and people talk about it again and again, like you just saw him and you're drawn to him. For some reason or another, who the fuck knows why. But his, and it's not just his style that made him so good. I think it was one other member of the New York Dolls. I can't remember who said it, but they said that Johnny's Johnny Thunders guitar sounded like a dinosaur screaming in the jungle. And I think that was such a brilliant way to put it. Because I just put it in a creanistic. Yes. So this, yes, so this dinosaur be witching siren. Right? We would call him Johnny Thunders.

39:19A quick bio. He was born and raised in Queens, New Queens, baby. By the way, he was an ultra boy at their local Catholic church, very Italian-American kid, like you said. But as far as school went, he hated it and school hated him back. He did terribly in school. He got expelled from a few of them. I think at least more than two. And, but that was okay with Johnny because he loved playing baseball. And he was pretty good. His dream was to become a professional baseball player like his hero Mickey Mantle. Yeah, the Yagol. He didn't go for the mats. Exactly. Oh, no, Mickey Mantle, by the way, is not just a guy named after a bar. He was, he famously played for the New York Yankees. Yes. And one seven World Series champions, don't wait, championships between 1952 and 1962. And he's a Libra. Okay, that's all I know about Mickey Mantle. Oh, good. That's all that Wikipedia would tell. But back to Johnny playing baseball as a kid.

40:19He would train every day. And according to him, Johnny was scouted by the Philadelphia Phillies, the Boston Red Sox, the newly relocated LA Dodgers. I don't know if any of this is true, but I did hear that the kid could play. Yeah. But then came the day that Johnny quit baseball altogether during the junior baseball league tri-outs. And there was supposedly a rule that the players needed a parent or guardian to be present for these tri-outs. But unfortunately for Johnny, he was raised by a single mother who worked two jobs just to make ends meet. So he couldn't have anyone come. His dad had left the family when Johnny was just a baby and just kind of sort of popped up in his life here and there. He was what you call a deadbeat father, right? So, but according to Sylvain's book, Johnny's dad was actually supposed to be there at that tri-outs that day as his guardian, but his dad never showed up. So it must have been hard to deal with that kind of disappointment. Sure.

41:19Yeah, they say that was sort of the beginning of Johnny Thunder's, his sort of like, fuck it attitude. Like I'm not gonna care about anything. Yeah, like whatever. Yeah, like whatever. So, but Lucky for Johnny. Birth of a shithead they say. Lucky for Johnny though, he had an older sister who she took care of him when their mom was working. She doded on him, spoiled him, rotten, they say. But most importantly, she introduced Johnny to her favorite music of all time. The girl pop groups of the early 1960s were all big fans. And that's when Johnny Thunder started getting really getting to music. He would borrow his sister's records and listen to the crystals, the chiffons, the shine grilands and the angels. Yeah. He loved the angels. I love angels so much. Maybe because it sounded like a baseball team. It was California Angels. Oh, they are a baseball team. Well, these angels, not the California Angels. Yep. Okay, they had a hit song at the time, not the baseball team. The angels from the 60s, they had a hit song at the time called my boyfriend's back.

42:21And you're gonna be a child. He went away and you hung around and bothered me every night. And I wouldn't go out with you. You said things that weren't very nice. But boy, friends, back, and you're gonna be a trouble. Hey, La, hey, La, my boyfriend's back. You've been spinning lies and I wasn't true. Hey, La, hey, La, my boyfriend's back. You've been spinning lies and I wasn't true. Hey, La, hey, La, my boyfriend's back. We got up now because he's coming after you. Hey, La, hey, La, my boyfriend's back. Hey, he knows what you've been trying. And he knows that you've been lying. He's begun for such a long time. If anybody in Los Angeles wants to start a girl group, I know how to play all these songs on drums. They're like my favorite things to play.

43:22That's great. I can't, okay. All right. Just say it. You know what? Nevermind. Go for it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You got to have a drummer. Yeah, yeah. You know, girl group usually has girls, but who are we to discriminate? Hey, hey, I'm talking about the singers. The first time I was the drummer and a group that was otherwise all female, the ongenews. That's right. I forgot you used to be a girl. Yeah. And also remember, I believe Iggy Pop played backing drums for... Iguanas. Yeah. Yeah. I think they even played for some of these girl groups of the time as well. So it's really interesting. I think they played a show with the band. But then we'll get to here in a second. Oh, wait a second. Okay. So after baseball, Johnny is getting pretty big into music. And soon he's rocking out to not just 60s girl groups. He's rocking out to cool guys like Gene Vincent and Eddie Cochran. Okay. The epitome of Teen Rebellion in a black leather jacket, you know, that it was the coolest thing ever back then. And Johnny thought so too.

44:23Because Johnny, he's a very stylish guy just like the rest of the New York dolls. Best dressed, best hair, most likely to become a rock star. Those are all superlatives that his high school yearbook should have said. And of course, best shit head. And of course, so before school, Johnny Gonzalez, aka Johnny Thunders, would get a maculately trust and put on a Gene Vincent record like this song. I love this song. Be Bapalula. Yeah. Be Bapalula. She's my baby, baby, baby. Be Bapalula. Don't wait my baby, baby. Be Bapalula. She's my baby, baby. Be Bapalula. Don't wait my baby. Be Bapalula. She, baby. Be Bapalula. I'm a baby, baby. I'm a baby, baby. Where is she? She's the guy in the red blue jeans. I'm a baby, baby. I love her. She's the queen of all the teens. I'm a baby, baby.

45:23I know. I'm a baby, baby. I know. I know. She's the girl in the back. Let me say it. Be Bapalula. She's my baby. So Teenage Johnny is in and out of school at this point, but as fate would have it, he briefly had what? It sounds like, like, just teenage Johnny. So it sounds like you're just about to start singing a song. Teenage Johnny, that's a singer song. Teenage Johnny. Go to high school. Johnny playing baseball. Instead, it don't show up. Teenage Johnny. Oh my God, that's good. You should be in a girl crew. I should. Holy crap. Yeah. OK, never get on a motorcycle. All right. Because you know what happens. I do. OK, so I don't know. Oh, Johnny. Johnny. Yeah. And also, you know, Reston P's Eddie Cochrane and Gene Vincent, by the way. You know, it was what? Car collision. Yeah, live fast, die young, which definitely, that was the order of the day. Yeah, unfortunately. So Teenage Johnny, you know, as fate would have it, he briefly attended Newtown High School

46:28where Sylvain and Billy were also students. Yeah, they're all roaming the halls together. Sylvain said when he first noticed Johnny thunders in the hallways, he couldn't help but notice how incredibly good-looking Johnny was. Yeah. He really was. Sylvain described him in his, oh, what? He really was. I know it's absolutely. He's a racist, old shithead. Yes, but he was. I know. It's just I saw all of that get erased by you, like just by how cute he was. You're just like, you really was. He was really cute. I know. He's a siren. I know. But you know, when I look at him now, though, I'm just like, not that in turn me on. Well, you panties still dry. Good. But Sylvain, on the other hand, thought he was incredibly good-looking. He actually described him in his memoir as having sculpted cheekbones. He does. A painstakingly, how do you say this? Caught hair? Caught. Caught. Caught. Caught.

47:28Okay, really fancy hair. He also noticed that Johnny was constantly surrounded by beautiful girls from school. So one day at the cafeteria at lunch, Sylvain went up to Johnny to see if he could play an instrument, you know, anything. Because if Johnny was in the band with Sylvain and Billy, maybe a lot of girls would hang out with them, you know, they would all hang out together. That was their master plan. It all comes back to girls, always. Yeah, duh. Yeah. But when Sylvain asked... It's like in Rory. Right. Why did I hang out at skate parks at 15? This is what we do. But when Sylvain asked him, Johnny said he didn't know how to play anything. But then he thought about it again and asked Sylvain, wait, how many strings does a guitar have? And Sylvain said six, six strings. Okay. So how many strings does a bass guitar have? Four, yeah, four strings. And then Johnny said, okay, I'll be your bassist. That must be easier, right? It is. It is. You should have stayed in school.

48:29And that's when Johnny... How much is a heart? It was six, three, four strings. That's a one. I do the four strings. How many strings in an oom? I think seven. Oh, never mind. Okay. So that's when Johnny started coming over to... I think it's four. I think it's three. What? Okay. Wait, Rob. Rob. Where is he? I feel like I'm blind. 11 strings. Wow. Yeah, it's like a loot. Oh, okay. So it would take the entire band of the New York Dolls to play one instrument. Okay. So Johnny started coming over to the Morseas basement and jamming with Sylvain and Billy. And soon realized that the bass actually isn't that much easier at all. So being the rock god that he wanted to be, Johnny switched to lead guitar and told Sylvain your rhythm guitar. Sorry, he sucks to be you, but these are rock god rules. And, you know, I got the best hair. So they jammed together for maybe a few weeks until Johnny for God or Godboard or got

49:30kicked out of school, which I think is right because soon he enrolled into Quintanos, you know, the performing arts school in Manhattan. Now he was soon in a band called Johnny and the J-Walkers. Then they changed it to the rain like R-E-I-G-N rain. So not confusing, but Johnny's band, they didn't last long, but they did get to record a demo, which is on YouTube. Here's their song by the rain recorded in the winter of 1967 called Zippered Apart. And give him a little bit of leeway here. Yeah, why not?

50:37So that's no gene Vincent or my boyfriend's back, but you know what? It's a start. And you got to start somewhere and that's a pretty good start. And it's really not that far off from the first New York Dolls album. It's really not. It's not that many years, maybe six. Oh, that's great. You know, like something like that. It's a very short period of time. That's right. That's a good lesson to learn. If your first attempt sucks, just give it like six, seven more years and you'll be there. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, we can only hope, but yeah, it does show you like that's stick to itiveness as they call it. Now, you mentioned Quintanos. It took me a long time to realize Quintanos wasn't like the cool pizza joint where everyone hung out at. Or like right next to the quiz nose. Yeah, no, it was a school. It was behind Carnegie Hall in Manhattan. It was a high school for models, musicians and actors, kids on the entertainment.

51:38Like a performing arts school. Yeah. Yeah. I think New York has more performing art schools now. Yeah. Amongst others, the former students at Quintanos included Bernadette Peters, the co-star of the jerk, Patty Duke. She did more than that. I mean, I would say, well, Annie, get your cousin and she won Donis for Broadway. That was fantastic. I would say Arles. Great anatomy, the two-part series. A two-part episode. Episode arc. She was really good on that. Yeah, with the limo episode. She was in that. Okay, we're getting too far off the beat. But still, I would say Arles, there's probably nowhere from the jerk. Patty Duke went to Quintanos. She, Patty Duke of course, co-starred in the 1960s cult classic Valley of the Dolls with none other than Sharon Tate. But most impressively, Quintanos was also attended by a singer who was part of a girl group that was above all other girl groups, the favorite of every New York Dolls, the Queens girl group, the most Queens girl group that ever existed, the singer who went to Quintanos

52:43was Mary Weiss and her group was the toughest of all, the Shangri-La's. Is she really going out with them? Well, there she is. Let's ask. Patty, is that Jimmy's ring your wearing? Mm-hmm. Gee, it must be great riding with them. Is he picking you up after school today? Mm-hmm. By the way, where'd you meet him? A medal at the candy store. You turn around and smile at me. You get the picture? Yes, we see. That's when I fell for the leader of the past. My folks were always putting him down. Down, down. They said he came from the wrong side of town. What'd you mean when you say that he came from the wrong side of town? They told me he was bad. I knew he was bad.

53:44That's what I fell for, the leader of the past. Yeah. That song was number one in the music charts in October 1964. They had three top 10 records and 11 top 10 hit songs in the two years. They were a pop group. Yeah. And they're from Queens. Yeah. I know it's very important to mention that. Queens, baby. And they met in high school just like the New York dolls. You know, Mary Weiss, the lead vocalist, after the Shangri-La's, after their high-ass and everything. She went on to work at an architecture firm. She worked in specializing in commercial interiors in a building in downtown Manhattan. But then unfortunately, her career ended when the building she had been working on was gutted due to the September 11th attacks in 2001. Because her building was just one block away from the World Trade Center. That's tragic. Here's leader of the pack. Maybe we can actually do it room, room. If it's funny, no, if it's not, then don't do it.

54:45All right. Oh, my God. Mary Weiss is a very interesting person. Because she talked quite a bit in the later years about the Shangri-La's. But she is just like, oh my God. Don't ask me about the Shangri-La's. The very last. But sit down for three hours. Yes. It's exactly what it was. But yet God, I fucking love the Shangri-La so much. But Quintanos could not hold Johnny Thunders' attention anymore the Newtown High. And at age 16, he dropped out of high school to more or less hang out in Central Park by day and immersed himself in the rock scene of 1967 New York by night. Bouncing between the action club in Long Island and the newly opened film or east, where at the time, friend of the show Alan Arcush was actually working as a picket taker. Yeah. Yeah. Johnny saw phenomenal performances from British bands, specifically. I mean, of course, he saw the kinks, but he also saw the Rolling Stones, who were reworking American blues into something harder, faster, and younger.

55:46But because Johnny and his friends were fearless and brazen, and because rock stars were far more apt to socialize with teenagers in the 60s, in the 70s, who well, the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s, let's just say until COVID, Johnny actually ended up hanging out with a slew of musicians who are now legends. They were a lot more accessible than that. Far more. Yeah. And he was on the first drink beer in Rod Stewart's hotel room at the Newport Jazz Festival. He met Janice Joplin in the MC5, and he even saved a cigarette packet as a souvenir when he tracked down Keith Richards in Manhattan and spent a night drinking with him at the bar on 13th and 5th. What is he, a private investigator? All right. Yeah, you can find him. He just had like bits of the funny thing about the New York Dulles is that they were kind of male groupies before they were musicians. Now the Rolling Stones would cast a long shadow over the New York Dolls throughout their career and key thritchers would of course be a huge influence on many members of the band including Johnny Thunders.

56:47Let's hear a little bit of key thritchers in which Johnny Thunders definitely even listen quite closely to the song, let's say. The Rolling Stones would cast a long shadow over the New York Dolls throughout their career and key thritchers would of course be a huge influence on many members of the band including Johnny Thunders. Let's hear a little bit of key thritchers in which Johnny Thunders is the most important part of the band. Let's hear a little bit of key thritchers in which Johnny Thunders is the most important part of the band. Yeah, now Johnny had always been a hip kid but it was his girlfriend, Janice Cafaso,

57:50who amplified Johnny's look and made it more feminine. Johnny began wearing high heels, teasing his hair and wearing women's blouses with sparkling vests and cowboy scarves, complete with makeup and this is 1967. But Johnny was not the only glam adjacent artist whose girlfriend was the brains behind his more feminine look, Mark Boland of T-Rex, David Bowie, Brian Eno, all of them had their feminine styles kick-started by their significant others. I mean, it was so easy just to be like, can I borrow your eyeliner? Or more likely, where is my eyeliner? I can't find my eyeliner. Really, most guys just need a girl to say, no, it's hot, go for it. If you hear a girl tell you that, especially like 17, it doesn't do anything. Johnny was doing this in the late 60s when most of America was still wrapping their heads around bell bottoms and long hair on boys. That was still freaking people out. But while Janice effectively created Johnny's look, she was also the inspiration for what

58:50was without it out Johnny's greatest song, which he wrote when he was just 19 years old. See, Johnny's romantic life was, and this is putting it very, very lightly, eternally fucked up. And his relationship with Janice was just as tumultuous as all of his others. Some of his relationships, you might even describe as illegal. Right. Yeah, downright wrong, I'll say. Yeah, wrong, yeah, we could also say that. But his relationships were doomed by what Johnny's biographer called a volatile neediness. And so, inspired by a throwaway line from one of Johnny's favorite TV shows, The Honeymooners. I love The Honeymooners. Honeymooners is fantastic. Actually, actually, I don't know if it holds up as well. Or more, I love Lucy people. We are. On Spire by that line, Johnny wrote one of the greatest break-up songs in existence a full 10 years before he actually recorded it. See, while Johnny Thunders had the heart of a bastard, he also had the undeniable soul of a poet as some bastards do.

59:52And when he accessed the part of himself that was connected to the universe at large, he was able to write gorgeous, heart-wrenching tunes like this one. You can't put your arms around a memory. It doesn't mean I didn't try. I just never know why. This is the close love alone, who baby on I can't at all. And when I'm alone, big deal, I'm still alone. If the rest of me's silent, beat my head against the floor.

1:01:00Try to knock the drums down, down in my heart. And even though they don't chill, the skies are so warm. And when they go, they let chandelier. You can't put your arms around a memory. You can't put your arms around a memory. You can't put your arms around a memory. Don't try. Don't try. Put some beeswax in my ears. I can't help. I'm going to go towards that quaff. The quaff? Quaff, yes. The siren gets you again. Yes, it does. So we are in the near quaff. Well, Johnny Thunders was working out his style with a guidance of his girlfriend, Janice.

1:02:01His fellow future New York dolls, Billy Messia and Sil-Sylvane, were about to put their own stamp on fashion in the late 1960s. So you have to Billy and Sil had fleeting success playing in a three-piece band inspired by the stooges and the hoo. They called it the pox. They put catch the pox on all of their flyers. Their band fell apart sometime in 1968 after their guitarist fucked off to San Francisco. So Billy and Sil put music on pause for a bit and got day jobs at the hippest clothing shops in Manhattan. Billy got a job at a shop on St. Mark's place called Grizzly Furs that specialized in what else but used Furs. While Sil got hired at an ultra-hip clothing store that also sold knick-knacks, bongs, what have you. Just above Midtown called a different drummer. And there Sil played shopboy to the likes of Bridget Bardot and the ultra-cool Janice Chaplin.

1:04:00Oh man, I rocked the air tamarind so hard when I hear that song. That's a cool Janice Chaplin was. She barely said three words and that clip we just played. And still, God damn she's cool. Now the shop located across the street from a different drummer the place where Sil worked, that shop would play a far more important part in our tale today. That shop was a bizarre New York City institution that probably wouldn't have existed anywhere else in the world. You don't think so? Okay, so yes, so Bains clothing store or the store that he worked at was across the street from the New York Doll Hospital.

1:05:04Because yes, a doll does need a hospital. And actually there are several specialized repair and restoration shops known as Doll Care Centers. Okay, Marcus, you've already got it. Yes, actually they are. One of the earliest ones was in Sydney, Australia that opened the original Doll Hospital in 1830. Literally called the original Doll Hospital. So yes, so many of the Doll Hospitals. Okay, this doll needs an animal kind of thing and everything. Okay, now this Doll Hospital, the New York Doll Hospital was opened in 1900 and closed in the year 2009. Actually, I remember that. Yeah, I remember when it closed too. Yeah, so I remember where I was when I first heard. Anyway, well, that's what they say. You become a real New Yorker when you're able to say, I know what used to be there. Oh my God, you're right. Yeah. And then the next thing was, it's not like it was before. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, back to Sylvain working right by the Doll Hospital.

1:06:04Every time he passed by that big neon sign that said New York Doll Hospital on the second floor of an old brownstone building, he thought to himself, man, that's a great band name. Sylvain even said in his autobiography, I knew it was the greatest band name of all time. Yeah. All it needed was the greatest band, really. Yeah. And this is 1968. So Sylvain held on to that name for almost three years until the New York Dolls actually formed. But we're going to get into that very soon. Yeah. And what did you say? Who did you say had that thing where if you have a real, the Cohen brothers, if you have a really good idea, write it down and put it in a drawer. And someday you'll come across it again. Totally. And that's what Sylvain did with it. That's a great fucking band name. I just got to find the band. Now, as I said earlier, Philly and Sill have been designing their own clothes since high school. So when Sill was fired from a different drummer from missing work, he and Billy started selling their own psychedelic sweaters and wool bikinis,

1:07:04which were apparently massive in the late 60s. It was a big deal. They were inspired by the bright colors, traditionally worn in Billy's home country of Columbia. Before long, Billy and Sill were selling their clothes to the coolest shops in Manhattan, like Jumpin' Jack Flash. Granny takes a trip and Betsy Bunky Ninis. What? What? Betsy Bunky Ninis is actually very important clothing store in Manhattan. Is that near the Yuvola? It was owned by legendary designer Betsy Johnson. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Betsy Johnson. She's the one who designed the outfits for the Velvet Underground and had, in the process, married John Kale of the Velvet Underground. In the process of designing their outfits? No. Was Betsy Johnson Heming Lou Reed's pants while she was walking down the aisle? No, no, no. I mean that she had met them to design their outfits. And then while she had designed their outfits throughout the year, she got to know John Kale and eventually the two of them got married. You're telling me this. Like, we didn't do a whole series on the Velvet Underground.

1:08:04We didn't tell you. You're the one who's being purposefully obtuse about my riding. I am very purposefully obtuse. Put that on my tombstone. No, that is true. Lou Reed got mad at her because she didn't hem his pants right. Yeah. But then again, Lou Reed gets mad if you don't look at him right. And Betsy Johnson was also a judge on drag race. That's true. I know she's legendary. She is. And one thing John Kale said, even though their marriage didn't work out was that she was the hardest working, most motivated and bitterly. And Bishis woman without being a total complete bitch, really nice person. But she worked her ass off every single day and it paid off. And my hat's off to Betsy Johnson, by the way. Indeed. And her clothes are too expensive. Way too expensive. But still, Sylvain and Billy Mercier, Betsy Johnson was the type of people they were selling their clothes too. They were being taken very seriously in the fashion world. Eventually, Billy and Sylv's fashion venture was successful enough to need a name. So, they took a phrase from the movie poster for the Ultra Cool satire Putney Swope and called it Truth and Soul.

1:09:08Here's something from the soundtrack of that movie. Just to kind of show you how fucking cool it was. These guys had taste. Pat Lee says the Bournem's sixth girl is got to have soul. Here can't eat an air conditioner. Yes, that movie Putney Swope, sorry, directed by Robert Downey Sr., who dubbed the voice of a black man in this film as a satire.

1:10:28We haven't seen it yet. But apparently it is a criterion collection. You said the George Lucas Foundation actually restored this. And it is apparently a very important piece of art of film. I haven't seen it yet. I mean, it was sampled in a ton of hip-hop songs. I mean, it was sampled as far back as 1985. Putney Swope was. A dayless old sampled it, I think, in a three-as-a-magic number. It's a cool movie. It's what you call a cool movie. All right, we got to watch it before we make any other opinion. I just know it's respected. Now, by 1970, Sill and Billy were earning $5,000 for every fashion line they put out. $5,000. I mean, hey, it was serious money in Wayne's World time. But this is 1970. $5,000 is so much money in 1970. $5,000 today to be like, give me $5,000. That's that. Wow. Yeah, but running a business at the age of 19 is a massive drag, especially during one of the most simultaneously exciting and terrifying times in American history to be young.

1:11:371960, 1970. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. Oh, God, it's such a drag having a successful business as being an immigrant in this new country and actually to succeeding. Oh, gosh. I should go get high and fuck off to Europe. Wait, that's exactly what they did. Well, fuck. Yeah, this is a matter of your immigrant or successful or anything. Be a 19. You don't want to fill out order forms. You want to go get high and party. That's what they did. And after making a particularly big sale, Billy cashed out his side of the business and headed to Amsterdam. And still followed a few months later in the summer of 1970. But not before stopping off in London for a purchase that would change, still, Sylvain sound completely. See, even though they were in a fashion, Sy was still a guitarist at heart. And in London, Syl bought a Marshall Stack Amp, which, you know, today I could literally get a Marshall Stack Amp delivered to my doorstep by tomorrow. But in 1970, a Marshall Stack was an exceedingly expensive piece of equipment in America in England, not so much.

1:12:44So, and Syl had wanted a Marshall Stack ever since he'd seen Hendrix using one a few years earlier. And as it turned out, it was an exceedingly wise purchase because Syl's Marshall Stack, that he paid to have shipped back to America, it would do wonders to beef up the New York Doll sound when they started playing the clubs of New York in due time. Yes, but the Marshall Amps weren't the only thing that would help the New York Dolls get to the next level. Because this is the time of the beginning of glam, right? Glamrock and pop and everything in between. And it was lucky, or let's say serendipitous, that Sylvain was in London in 1970 when he got to watch a performance at the legendary roundhouse venue, which we should talk about soon. We will. And he got to see one of the coolest shows ever, one of the masters of glam, Mark Bullen.

1:13:58We're a total hat, got the dreamy in the old days where I feel hot, trying to touch it again. Right, I want one, that the people of the building, where you're held on, baby can't go wrong. That was right a white swan, which I don't recommend. Released in March 1970 by Mark Bullen's band Tyranosaurus Frex, who's just about to become T-Rex. And he's like, I'm not going to be a big fan of him. I'm not going to be a big fan of him. I'm not going to be a big fan of him. I'm not going to be a big fan of him. I'm not going to be a big fan of him. 2060 by Mark Bullen's band Tyranosaurus Frex, who's just about to become T-Rex, mostly because they're manager Tony Viskanti? Yeah. Remember that name? Yes. Oh yeah, Tony Viskanti is. He's the Manumade Bowie. Exactly. Tony Viskanti was Mark Bullen's manager at the time and his producer. He was tired of writing out the Tyranosaurus part in their calendars and promotional stuff.

1:15:03It's annoying. Even the dinosaur goes by T-Rex, right? So they changed it to T-Rex very soon after that. But anyway, Mark Bowlin was essentially T-Rex. I mean, they were a duo. It was just Mark Bowlin and a bongo drummer hippie named Steve Peregrine took, not his real name. This song, this song, writer white swan, is at the beginning of their glam period in 1970. But T-Rex did start, they actually started as a band in 1967 as a barefoot cross-legged hippie duo writing songs about a wizard Mark Bowlin met in the woods just outside of Paris, which is a real story according to Mark sometimes. Sometimes he says it's real and sometimes he says, oh, you know, the media, they like to embellish things. By the way, it really, really happened. Yeah, Mark loved to play with the media and to tell really fucking bizarre stories about French wizards. Exactly. No, he was, and you know what, who knows, who's to say

1:16:07that's not true. Yeah. Actually, we are. It's not true. Anyway, I do believe Mark Bowlin wrote his own version of Lord of the Rings. Yeah, without reading Lord of the Rings. I'm not kidding, look it up. But by 1970, Mark had given up his whole Robbie Shankar, inspired hippie vibe and traded in his acoustic guitar for a Fender Stratocaster electric guitar. And in the following year, he released his biggest album, Electric Warrior, right? Which will definitely influence the New York Dolls in everything they do, especially with composing their music. But also his style, because Mark Bowlin looked like a super hot rock star with white makeup and costumes, he was definitely like a ruffled shirt and velvet kind of guy, a very hot rock and roll willy-wanker. Okay, hotter. Much hotter. Much hotter. Yes. He did look like willy-wanker though. But a hotter one. Yeah, far more stylish willy-wanker.

1:17:08Sorry. Also, as a research note, by the way, Sylvane spoke about going to this concert in his autobiography, but it's also in Johnny Thunders' bio that he had gone to London with a press pass he had borrowed from a friend and saw T-Rex in 1969 at the Roundhouse where Steam Hammer opened, which is the same show that happened in 1970, and which inspired Johnny to find a band to join. But I'm not sure if that's correct, but then again, who cares? They all loved Mark Bowlin the moment he went to Electric and they never looked back. Come on, check out this banner of a song. This song will make you have sex even if you're alone.

1:18:22Okay, so Sylvane leaves London super inspired. He then goes to Amsterdam and sees the who in concert in 1970. But most importantly, actually, he found Billy Morcia. He was busking on the street where they actually ran into each other because Amsterdam is actually not that big of a city. It's not. So they ran into each other, they hogged, and then they just kept traveling around Europe together until they got busted, of course. So they were back in London when the police raided the hostel they were staying at. The cops were looking for a couple of Americans who were illegally shipping Hachish back to the States. The cops went to every person and asked them if they were American.

1:19:23That was pretty much how they were going to bust them, right? And Sylvane stupidly said, yes. Yeah. Oh, God, why? And when they found a little Hachish in his pocket, he spent a few days in jail. But Billy was smart and said, no, no, senior. No, no, no, no, I'm seeing the English. Get his Hachish. Remember, Billy is Colombian. From Bogota. Yes, that's right. Anyway, after Sylvane got out of jail, they were escorted to the airport and placed on a flight back to New York City. So that was the end of their trip. But at least he got those martial amps. He did. And that was the most, he got the martial amps. He sought T-Rex. He saw the who. I mean, it was a hell of a few months. Now, it's around this time that the future lead guitarist, the New York Dolls, he decided that Johnny Gonzali wasn't the coolest name in existence. He's right. It's terrible name. Johnny replaced the Gonzali with thunders, either after a comic book cowboy, the same name or after the classic we played earlier from the Kings.

1:20:23Put the S on it. And thus he created one of the best rock and roll names in history. With this new name bolstering his confidence, Johnny eventually hooked back up with Billy and Sil. And they all became regulars at a bar down in the village called Nobodies. The future dolls have been drawn to Nobodies because by 1970, this had become one of the coolest rock and roll hangouts in New York City. Right after night, Johnny, Billy and Sil would watch as rock royalty, like Rod Stewart, Jimmy Page, your Robert Plant, would walk in and hold court with the ladies at the bar. One time, they said they even saw Iggy Pop there. Although they said Iggy just sat there looking sad for a few hours. Nobody talked to him and he just left alone. Oh, man, that is such an Iggy Pop story. I think I've read that story. I've read that story many times. You talked about that in the Stooges. Last many years ago, our first series was on the Stooges. And for a little while there, he was a bit of a joke in the 70s. In early 70s, before the idiot.

1:21:25Before he went to Berlin, and did his David Bowie boot camp. Yes. That's all to say that Nobodies was the first hangout spot for the band that would become The New York Dolls, a spot that would become part of their identity. It would also be where they would interact with one of their other future members for the first time. Yes. As a friend remembered it, Johnny Thunders was tripping on acid at Nobodies one night when a blonde six foot tall monster came lumbering and wearing huge platform boots. And the first thing that Johnny's acid-addled brain had was that Frankenstein had just arrived. He's like, you fucking knows him. Hi, man. Frankenstein's here. Look, step, step. It was of course not Frankenstein. What? This lumbering, gentle giant on platforms was Arthur Killer Cain, future bassist of The New York Dolls. Now, Arthur represented the northernmost burrow, the Bronx.

1:22:25He'd been a straight-a student and a bit of a loner growing up, and he was so quiet that he was given the ironic nickname of Arthur Killer Cain. But after Arthur's mother died when he was 17, he began to rebel by drinking smoke and pot and of course sniff and glue. Eventually though. Well, I have course. Because that's what all these guys did. They all sniffed glue. It was big in the outer burrows. Yeah. Some of them even wrote songs about it. Oh, that's right. That there's that one song called. What was it called? Now I will. No, it's called sniffing glue. Eventually though, Arthur picked up a guitar and in order to avoid getting drafted into the Vietnam War, Arthur enrolled at Pratt College to study of all things. And I think he just picked it at random, hotel management and food science. But it was while Arthur was at Pratt that he and his high school buddy George better know now in New York Rock history as Rick Rivets. They got really serious about their band, London Fog with 2 G's.

1:23:29I will say again, it's important to keep in mind as we listen to this clip. With London Fog, it's more about heart here than it is about talent. They're trying. Yeah. I think it's always right. All right, man. Very nice. With ladies, yeah. I never thought that would be the same thing. I don't know if I'm out of town for a few things. I think it's a big change. Who died in my dreams? Just a hand, yeah. With ladies, yeah. I never thought that would be the same thing. I don't know if I'm out of town for a few things. I think it's a big change. Who died in my dreams? Just a hand, yeah. Don't move my hand. So black my hand. I don't know if I'm out of town for a few things. I don't know if I'm out of town for a few things. So when they recorded this, was someone wearing a wire? Or was this a purpose?

1:24:29I think it was that they were playing a live show and somebody was just standing in the audience with a little microphone. Oh, they did that with a velvet underground too, as we all know. Okay, very cool. Well, I mean, this song, obviously, London Fog, they're very garage band inspired. Yeah. Yeah, Trogs. The London Fog with two G's, named after a jacket or, I believe, raincoat company. It probably had two G's because of the Trogs. No, no, it was because it was a raincoat or a jacket company. But the jacket company doesn't have two G's. How do you know that? Because I know it. Rob. We need a tiebreaker. Yeah, yeah. London Fog isn't spelled with two G's. I know that. But the raincoat company. And I know the raincoat company, the raincoat company doesn't have two G's. I think they add two G's because Trogs have two G's and they sound like the Trogs. The Trogs? What's the song? Wild thing. Damn, damn, yeah. You made my heart sing. And a girl like you is also an incredible underrated 60s garage classic.

1:25:30Gotcha. No, one G, London Fog. All right, they must have changed it since 1970. They must have been like, that's stupid. Okay, you're probably right. They were probably totally correct. All right, so they were named London Fog with two G's after the Trogs. They actually did manage to get some gigs downtown at the bitter end and Cafe Wau. By the way, shout out to Forte, Dormen of Cafe Wau for I don't know how long I've seen ten years, but they all all power to you. But back to Arthur and his best friend and bandmate Rick Rivets or who they called Big George. Big George. Yes, I know. This is this is a very Robin Hood kind of thing. Okay, so these guys, they were very influenced, as I said, by garage bands, blues bands, rock bands, or all of the above, which is pretty much the yard birds. Yeah. So here's a song. It's a bow-diddly cover, but a great cover with Jeff Beck playing guitar.

1:26:32And it's called, I'm a man. Nobody in this era of time covered songs like the fucking yard birds. This is just like the Rolling Stones. You know, it's blues, but it's faster and it's harder and it's louder. And these guys are paying attention. Oh, totally. Yes, definitely.

1:27:32Of course, Arthur and Big George are very much paying attention. I mean, Rick Rivets, right, that's what he would like to go by. They got to see the yard birds live when they came to Long Island, New York, to a venue called Action House, which is very self-explanatory. Very, very cool venue. I believe KISS started there when they were a blue-chain band. So Arthur even got to hang out with the yard birds that night that they saw the show. And they also made damn sure the checkout what shoes and clothes that yard birds were wearing. Arthur took notes. Then afterwards, he would hit the thrift shops and get, you know, these used leather motorcycle jackets, Philly ruffled shirts, silk scarves to wear, and some bright red boots. I want to look just like all the rubbish pop in Jesus. Marty Craze was just shaking and it's the graying right now.

1:28:34Yes. So Arthur Cain also had, just like the rest of the New York dolls, a very, very good sense of fashion. At the very least, because he was very big into fabrics like velvet and satin and looking damn fashionable for the time. Even if he got shit for it, he didn't care. He loved how he looked, especially wearing his platform boots when he was already like six foot four, which is the gigantic for that time. That's why Johnny thought he was Frankenstein. And it wasn't long until Arthur got, you know, going to Europe to go shopping bug like the rest of the New York dolls. They all did this on their own separately, by the way. But like Sylvain and Billy, and it actually even Johnny thunders went for a bit. As we said, he got a press pass and everything. Arthur's trip though ended quite abruptly. When he, this happened for real, he bought a motorbike at an outdoor market and Amsterdam.

1:29:34He drove it around like an idiot. He got pulled over by the cops. And when the cops noticed that Arthur's visa was expired, and that the motorbike was actually stolen, Arthur was promptly escorted to the airport and put on a flight back to New York City. These guys have already a lot in common. So funny enough, Arthur and Rick Rivitz met Johnny thunders in the most meet cute way. The most meet cute rock and roll shady ass way, to be honest. You see Arthur and Rick Rivitz, after they got back from Europe, they got day jobs. Rick as a postal worker and Arthur as a telephone repairman. But it was just way too boring for them. So one night, I don't know why, but one night they were riding in their van downtown in the West, in the West Village. In the West Village. In the Upper West Side Point. But one night, they were riding in their van downtown in the West.

1:30:38I can't say it right. I want to wipe your windows. I'm the viper. Where are you from? The Upper Side? I got to stop this. I got to stop this. Okay, so one night, I don't know why, but they were riding in their van downtown in the West Village on Bleaker Street when they saw a really nice motorcycle and decided to steal it. I think the reason why is everyone in New York City in 1970 was like a low-grade criminal. Everyone. Like living in the North African. Many, many. Let's say many. Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay. Anyway, really? Okay. So Arthur and Rick Rivets, actual criminals, they decided to steal it. Instead of trying to hotwire it, they decided to pick it up and load it into their van. But the problem was the motorcycle was way too heavy for them. So they only got the front half of it into their battered Volkswagen van.

1:31:40Like just the butt was sticking out the whole time. And it took them like a half hour to even do that. They were also very drunk. A couple of fucking guns. And they were also looking very suspicious in front of everyone on Bleaker Street. They got platform shoes on. And trying to steal someone's bike. And so yes, they were looking very suspicious. Everyone's kind of stopping like what's going on, especially Johnny Thunder. Who happened to be on Bleaker Street, right in front of them outside of Pizza Park. And that's when Arthur, Kane and Rick Rivets saw Johnny and recognized him from the film more and nobody's. So they forgot about their crime. That they were committing. And they walked over to Johnny Thunder to see if he wanted to play music with them sometime. And according to Johnny Thunder's, he was just enjoying some pizza when two large individuals just started walking towards him in a menacing way with scared Johnny enough into thinking like, should I run? Oh, wait, I'm wearing platforms.

1:32:40Like that won't work. And it doesn't, I tested that theory. It does not work. No, it's bad. No. But as Arthur and his buddy got closer, Johnny recognized them and was like, all right, those are the two giant Frankenstein who hang out, we're hanging out. And soon introductions were made. And they made arrangements to jam together sometime. I don't know what happened to that motorcycle, but maybe it was destiny. You know what I mean? Destiny. Destiny. No escaping that for me. Destiny. Very important. Very, very important. Now, after Arthur's relationship with his father disintegrated, he moved into the mercy of home, Doughton Queens. Because as you said earlier, the mercy is ran a boarding house. And so, Sylvain, Billy Mercier and Rick Rivers, they were already living in the mercy of house. And before long, Arthur, Sil, Billy, Rick, and Johnny were playing in the mercy of family basement in the earliest incarnation of the New York Dolls, taking turns as lead singer

1:33:44shouting over the noise. Sil, however, took an extended trip to the UK in mid 1971 and stayed there until the end of the year. But the band that will become the New York Dolls continued while he was gone. While Sil wasn't looking, Billy Mercier kind of sort of stole Sil's idea for the name of their fledging band. While Sil was gone, the group started calling themselves the dolls. Partly, this name played into the way they were dressing, which was already inching towards drag. But it's important to note that the way these guys looked on stage is the way they dressed to go to the fucking bodega. I mean, that is what Sil, Sil, Veyne, would say he said it would take us five hours to get ready to go to the grocery store. And it was a hell of a courageous thing to do in 1971. And they were doing it simply because that's how they liked to dress. I would love to be like, so are these, are these grapes like ripe? Or what do you think? And completely in drag like they're a caffeine, kids in a hall. Now, eventually, Johnny Thunders got tired of commuting all the way to Queens for rehearsal

1:34:48from his apartment in Alphabet City in Manhattan. What neighborhood in Queens was the Mercilla family house? I actually don't know. They weren't Jamaica. They were Jamaica. Okay. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. Alphabet City, Jamaica, it's going to take a while. So Arthur tracked down a rehearsal space around the corner from the Natural History Museum on 82nd Columbus. And while today that area is quite posh, I mean, where in Manhattan isn't after all. It is like totally like you can't even afford to step on anyone's sidewalk at this point. You can't even afford to park there. But back then 82nd Columbus was the site of Rusty's bicycle repair shop, which was owned by a surly old New York character named Rusty. May he rest in peace. He's definitely dead. I'm guessing he's dead. Rusty, however, didn't trust the bands that he rented this rehearsal space to. So to keep the dolls from stealing Rusty's bikes. And you know what? He had good reason to, by the way. Yeah. Rusty was like kind of on point with this one.

1:35:49He would lock the entire band inside his storeroom to rehearse while he left for the evening and then he would come and unlock the door when their time was up. What if there was a fire? They would all burn to death in there. You see, some of the guys already tried stealing. Remember? And some of them were selling drugs. I think Johnny Thunder's was selling quailudes. You know, I mean, I don't, and also, by the way, I don't believe any of the New York dolls ever got away with their crimes ever. So it was very adorable and cute. And that's on Rusty's head. Yeah. Because Rusty's beanie head. Like I said, low grade criminals. Yes. So back to the early lineup of the dolls. At this point, they're the dolls. So we got Billy Murcia Androms, Rick Rivets on rhythm guitar since Sylvain is still, you know, in England, having no idea they've gone ahead and started a band without him, like you said, Arthur Killer Kane on bass guitar. So Johnny Thunder's got lead guitar and even did some vocals for a lot of their songs at

1:36:51this time. And this is around October 1971 when Rick Rivets brings his cassette player to record a demo that they would call the actress tapes. Which is supposedly their first band name, but that's not true. They were already the dolls by this point. Yes. So these songs they recorded at a rehearsal at Rusty's bike shop. These were original songs mostly written by Johnny Thunder. Like this one called That's Poison. I tried every night to hardly be alone, but until you get it, it's not even way out

1:38:11to be. You know, maybe I'm going to crash my boat into the rock. No, I'm kidding. Because honestly, it is not easy to start and it is always good to just try and just get it out there no matter how much it might suck or, you know, or whatever, but it doesn't even suck that bad. It really doesn't. I've heard and played far worse. Exactly. Put it on the new, whatever compilation, Carolina Dagole, it doesn't suck that bad. And as rough as that is, I mean, you can still hear that you sit in the break. You said, you can still hear Johnny Thunder's in that. I agree completely. You can hear the signature Johnny Thunder's guitar. Of course, his voice, nobody sounds like him. It shows promise. And because Johnny Thunder's obviously wasn't a strong singer just yet, as you just heard,

1:39:15he decided to focus on guitar. So the dolls went searching for a real singer. And through a former tenant at the Marcia House, they found a guy who had moved to Manhattan from our final borough of the evening, Staten Island. This guy's name was David Johansson. And once Johansson joined as one of the greatest, front and end of the 1970s, the song you just heard, that's poison. It became the classic New York Dolls track subway train. And I understand, one of life, it occurs quite a bit confused when I've been trying

1:40:18every night to fulfill your dream. But I'm telling you, it ain't easy. And that's where we'll pick back up next week with the story of David Johansson and

1:53:24the Chicago. Hey, it's Sebastian Manescalco, and I got a new podcast with my buddy, Pete Corielli. Every week on the Sebastian Manescalco show, we talk about life, family, culture, and all the weird stuff we just accept now. We'll hear classic stories from the road and get the behind the scenes look at our lives. We got everybody from comedians, actors, athletes, authors, maybe even my neighbor. Listen to the Sebastian Manescalco show wherever you get your podcasts. Yes, he's Angus Maximus. This partner has one pound of hot, sushi cooked to water, Angus speed, it's more fish than a quarter pounder. The battle is closed. And for only $5.99 even regular juice can afford it. Like that guy. Give me that big ol' burn.

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