"The grift goes on and on and on"

0:00Hey everybody, it's Rachel Maddo here. Forgive me popping in deer feed like this, but I want to tell you that more than a dozen of us from MSNOW are gonna be in Texas on Saturday, September 26th. I'm gonna be there. Lauren Soudon will be there. So will Jen Saki and Stephanie Rool and Ali Velshi and Chris Hayes and Jacob Soberoff and Simone Sanders Townsend and and and a whole bunch of us are all gonna be there in Texas. Tickets started just over 30 bucks each. It's in Arlington just outside Dallas. There's a ton to do there. If you come you'll get to meet all of us. You'll also get to meet everybody else there. All these other great people from our great MSNOW community. We'd love to see you. And if you buy a ticket to the Texas event, you will get access to our new MSNOW membership free for a year. We're really excited about it. It launches later this summer. You'll be able to talk with me, talk with some of the other hosts, but tickets for Texas are on sale now. You can learn more at ms.nail slash together. Hope to see you in Texas. We need to stop the corruption.

1:00It's also costing tens of billions of dollars. And let's be clear what corruption actually is. It's not some abstract notion. It's theft. It's theft out of the pockets of my constituents. Out of colorottens, out of Texans, out of Californians, out of Pennsylvania's pockets. And I'm never going to apologize for going after that money and getting it back into the pockets of my customers. Into the pockets of my constituents. Hi again, everybody. It's a five-h the clock in New York on an historic and solemn day like today, one where we honor the sacrifice and patriotism and courage of the 9-11 heroes in that generation. Making the turn to cover the brazen and public corruption and self-dealing by the current occupant of the White House and people in his orbit is even more disturbing and the immorality all the more striking. Today's marking of the 25th anniversary of 9-11 reminds us how much the character of people

2:02and moments of crisis and all levels of power and leadership matters. Power leaders should at least try to set a standard and act with the lives of the people they serve in mind. They should try to model the best of us, not the worst. Unfortunately, we're instead now all confronted by an administration and the Trump administration that is very public about profiting it absolutely every turn of their all-use air quotes here, public service. As everyday Americans, including many who voted for Donald Trump, are struggling to make ends meet. We've reached a point in Trump 2.0 where the question regarding people in government is not whether they make money through their public service but how much money they're making and whether all the families along for the ride. Take this new reporting in the New York Times, for example, quote, Steve Whitkoff, President Trump's special envoy, reaped at least $257 million last year

3:02from his sprawling business empire, a remarkable haul for government employee. Whitkoff's earnings reported in a newly released disclosure form for 2025 include $120 million from selling a stake in his family's real estate business. He also collected nearly $107 million from a holding company that invested in a variety of other ventures including the Trump family cryptocurrency business world liberty financial, which raises real questions and concerns about conflicts of interest. New York Times adds this quote, an investment firm tied to the UAE bought nearly half of world liberty financial last year, transaction that blards the line between foreign policy and private enterprise and enriched Whitkoff's family and Trump's. Whitkoff's son, Zach Whitkoff, who serves as world liberty's chief executive, also helped arrange a partnership between the company and Pakistan, those deals coincided with the elder Mr.

4:02Whitkoff serving a special envoy, diplomatic role that involves peace talks in the Middle East. The White House said in response that Whitkoff had fully divested from world liberty financial and his commercial activities are completely unrelated to his government work. OK. But as I mentioned, the enriching of Trump's most senior aides and their kids is practically baked in these days. Tonight, Trump leaves for Ireland. He's going to attend a golf tournament that's happening at one of his properties, meaning that the taxpayer is paying for Trump to travel on Air Force 1 to attend an event at one of his properties. The people pay to use. So he'll make more money and cost us more money. Meanwhile, the country is united in its rejection of Donald Trump's corruption and pattern of profiting off his job as American president, according to a Gallup poll released at the beginning of the month, 89% of all Americans say government corruption is widespread.

5:04That is 10 points higher than a year ago. The complete loss of ethics and moral fiber in the Trump administration is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts in France. Norrisons here. He's the co-founder of Democracy Defenders Action and publisher of the Contrarian. He also served in the Obama administration as special counsel and special assistant to the president for ethics and government reform. Also joining a staff writer at the Atlantic Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the US Naval War College. Former DOJ pardon attorney Liz Oyer is still with us as well. Nor am I start with you. What's disorienting about the corruption stories is that they're not trying to hide it. And so I think as with Trump tweeting out, hanging a lantern around his most egregious conduct over the last decade, it can be a form of gaslighting in and of itself. Well, what's wrong with it? If they disclose hundreds of millions of dollars they made on Trump's cryptocurrency gambit from the UAE negotiation, well, negotiating

6:05peace in the Middle East, if we're learning about it from them. But that doesn't make it either normal or right. It doesn't, Nicole. And the cost of doing it in plain sight is widespread bipartisan public outrage. I saw another poll from navigator around the same time. 81% of Americans think this endemic corruption is leading their own costs to soar. And they're right, somebody has to pay for this. The Whitcaw example is so outrageous. His initial financial disclosures still haven't been certified by the Office of Government Ethics. That's from last year signifying that they have issues with his financial position. Now we get this massive in excess of $200 million profit

7:12that he's taken. That includes profits of over $100 million from a holding company that holds the interest in world liberty financial, which is run by his son, Zach, and the Trump sons. I mean, this is like the Chinese brinstlings that even China cracked down on. So I think the American people are not gonna stand for it and a reckoning is coming. Senator Chris Murphy has been speaking out about the Trump family and the Trump orbit corruption since the earliest days of the second Trump presidency. Here he is reacting to the Wall Street Journal reporting earlier this week about Cory Lewandowski, Tom, he says, quote, it's hard to comprehend how deep the corruption is when the president is engaged in a full time grifting operation. Everyone who works for him gets in on the act too. The most corrupt administration in the history of the country.

8:14The reason Cory Lewandowski and his boss or whatever we're calling her Christy Nome also was caught grifting when she was atop the Department of Homeland Security. The sons had defense contracts and they've never done defense contracting business before. Jared Kushner has billions, I think, with the B coming in from Middle East governments where he's traveled to represent the United States of America in negotiations and diplomatic ventures. The reason you can't do anything about Cory Lewandowski or Christy Nome or Jared Kushner or the sons is because it would draw attention to what Donald Trump is doing, which is, Congressman Crow says, a generational, an unprecedented theft from the American people. Yeah, there are two tragedies and here when it comes to our public civic life. One is that Donald Trump has simply gotten everyone used to this.

9:15I mean, this really has been part of the, boiling the frog approach to getting people used to corruption. It seems quaint now to talk about blind trusts and inappropriate, even the appearance of impropriety a phrase that we used to use because politicians dreaded it. And so what Donald Trump did is what he's done with so many other things. He has just firehosed the American people with so much of this corruption that people have gotten used to it. They kind of shrug and they say, well, what are you going to do? The other tragedy in this though is that those polls about government corruption being widespread. What Trump has managed to do, and again, this is something he's done in other areas of politics, is to say, well, it's not just me, everybody does it. And so in order to profit and to engage in this incredibly shocking behavior, he smears everybody

10:18in public service to basically say, well, I'm not doing anything anybody else doesn't do. I'm just smarter than they are. If you remember when he was asked about paying taxes and was pointed out to him that he doesn't really pay that much in taxes, he said, well, that's because I'm smart and everybody else is stupid. I mean, it is really incredibly corrosive. And it's going to be hard, I think, to convince the American people to go back to old standards where you can't issue your own coins. You can't appoint your children to things that profit, that make you profit. I mean, I think he really has lowered the bar on this, almost to the point of non-existence. And it's going to be an unpopular thing to try to put it back, but it has to be done. Let me, let's just be a rare instance where I push back a little bit. I mean, I actually think it is the most obvious

11:19political home run that a politician of either political party could get up to the plate and hit. And that is to ban nepotism, to ban self enrichment, to say that your net worth cannot grow by a penny while you're in office. And it requires sort of zero debate in the country, the eight-name percent of Americans who don't want people in government to get rich. I interviewed a congressional candidate in Wisconsin who said she'd ban trading. I mean, I actually think this is low-hanging fruit for anyone of either party. And, and Tom Nichols, to the point where people get used to, it's like saying they get used to $6 diesel. I mean, understanding it and seeing it is not the same thing as accepting it. Don't you think people would be enthusiastic for someone who comes in, it takes a fire hose to all the corruption. Bulldoze is the East Wing, gets rid of the arch and says you can't get rich while you're on the job. You know, I mostly agree with you Nicole. What I worry about is that the mistake that we will all make after Trump has gone is that people will interpret those things

12:19as somehow trying to get even after the fact. I think you're right, I think, you know, I think the corruption issue is a winner, electorally, to simply point out how many people are enriching themselves. But I also think that again, he's gotten used to it. He's gotten us used to so much of this that it had to get to these incredibly shocking levels. I mean, Spiro Agnew, let's, you know, let's bring up a name from the past, leaves the presidency because he pleads Nolo on tax evasion. I mean, it's almost romantic to think of those days. But I agree, I think these would be popular pieces of legislation, but you are going to have people fighting about whether this is some sort of post facto attempt to get a Trump. I think Democrats ought to do it. I think they ought to run on it. And I think they ought to restore this notion of shame for engaging in this kind of corruption. I'll add just one other thing.

13:20I think it's kind of unfortunate that you actually have to pass a bill to say that, no, your children can't get rich off of you in a while you're in public office. We used to be able to observe those things as norms as part of our basic decency. And now we're going to have to pass laws to do it, which to me is always a sign of trouble. I mean, I just can imagine like the dump truck and put everything gold and tacky say, we'll let Trump keep it all to make sure it doesn't look retributive in nature, but no one else can do it in the future. Just pile all that junk in there. Let me also guard against the numbing factor of how much of this has gone on and try to drill down in one single piece of reporting in the Wall Street Journal. Liz, they report this, quote, chasing side deals, flexing influence Cory Lewandowski's power moves at DHS. When Cory Lewandowski was at the Department of Homeland Security, he approached senior

14:20Cateri officials with a proposal. Hire me on the side, the longtime Trump aide who was effectively the shadow of secretariat the department last year told them, according to people familiar with his pitch, he said he could help the tiny wealthy gold state with any issue that fell under the department's purview, such as Visa's people said. The alleged money-making efforts, which appeared to be offers by Lewandowski to sell government services for personal gain, came while he had an expansive portfolio at one of the most powerful agencies in the federal government. The role gave him de facto decision-making authority over large amounts of recently appropriated billions of dollars, the president's border and immigration enforcement agenda, and the collection of tariffs, which have been vastly expanded under President Trump. Wall Street Journal reports in this story, Liz that Lewandowski told people close to him, he expects the president would pardon him in the event of a criminal case. I guess I'm old enough to consider that clear evidence

15:24of Lewandowski knowing he was committing crimes. Is that how you read that Wall Street Journal report? I mean, he's certainly not alone in that. Everybody's got a side hustle, a side deal. You've got Tom Homan getting a bag of cash and a Kava bag. You've got Natalie getting an envelope full of cash. It is illegal to supplement your income with outside private income in most circumstances if you are a government employee. And it is just so stunning to see these supposed public servants making money hand over fist. I mean, public service is about a desire to serve the country, not for yourself, not to enrich yourself, but because you care about our future, you care about your fellow citizens, and you want to devote your talents to doing the best for those people. I spent most of my career in public service. I remember when I was a public defender, I had a client who sent me, who's dad sent me a $50 check to say thank you for helping his son. And I had to send it back because ethics required that.

16:26When I was at DOJ, you know, you could be, you might be invited to a colleague's welcome reception on a new law firm. DOJ will tell you you have to pay to go to that reception because there can't be any appearance that you're taking free food or drinks. So ethics are something that true public servants take really seriously, and that have been absolutely demolished by this administration. Norm, we have you on a day when there's a big development and a story that you and your client are at the center of, so I want to ask you about it. The New York Times is reporting that the contractor is blaming its own repair as not vandals for the reflecting pool failure. I'm going to reach his MS reporting and ask you to fill us in in terms of what you know. The contractor that renovated the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool has told the Trump administration that errors in its own work and flaws in the repair plan, not vandalism, caused the pool's new blue liner to peel and break loose according to government documents reviewed by the New York Times. Trump has repeatedly blamed vandals wielding knives or box cutters for damage to the pool's American flag

17:26blue liner, even after the Justice Department dropped charges that it had brought against people accused of vandalizing the national landmark. Now, the Times notes that they dropped charges, but they are still interested in harassing and investigating or prosecuting your client. What is this reporting signal to you? Well, it's more proof of a proposition that we have put forward since the day after Davey Herne was arraigned. And that is that a rushed botched installation was responsible for the damage to the reflecting pool, not Davey Herne. What could be more corrupt, Nicole, than a president who is responsible for this fiasco looking for escape code and attempting to blame an innocent person, drag them through the criminal justice system.

18:30Fortunately, the case has been dismissed. Now we've asked that it be dismissed with prejudice. We had a hearing last week. That means it can never be brought again. Incredibly, the government wants the right to bring the case again. They say, no, dismiss it without prejudice. And when the judge confronted them, they admitted they had no proof of wrongdoing. And yet they want that sword to continue to dangle over Davey's head. So this too is a profound story of the corruption of the rule of law of American values. And they picked the wrong guy to have to tangle with in three time Olympian, many time world champion, canoeist Davey Herne. He has stood up with myself, my wonderful co-counselot democracy defenders, WLG and steptoe. And we made that point over and over again. And they're now finally admitting it.

19:31Davey's not responsible for this damage. Incredible story. Thank you all so much, Normaizen, Tom Nichols and Liz Ohir. Thank you for having this conversation. I'm sure it is to be continued. When we come back, how Donald Trump's FCC may have been inadvertently boosted Democratic Senate, Kenneth James Talleriko's campaign, this interview which is being Kimmeled in Aaron Broadcast TV after Kimmel's cited threats from the FCC. And for Talleriko, it's proof Trump and his allies are very worried. The Talleriko is winning the race in Texas. We have much more from Talleriko and the interview the Trump administration doesn't want you to see. Next, plus with corruption, greed and censorship all over the news these days, we've got the perfect antidote to all of it. Light. We'll talk to the director of the film Lightworkers and how we can all reject division and violence and engage civilly and do the hard work that is needed right now to protect American democracy. To then my house continues after quick break, don't go anywhere. This is not the first time you've been demoted to YouTube.

20:57When you were on Stephen Colbert's show. That's right. This same, very same thing happened. Why are they so scared of you? Well, they're worried that we're going to win this race in Texas. They are very worried. That was Texas Senate candidate James Talleriko in an interview with Jimmy Kimmel last night. In the interview, Jimmy Kimmel strongly suggested that the interview itself was kept off the air by Donald Trump's FCC. So instead, the interview was posted on YouTube last night. And beforehand, Kimmel said the decision to pull the interview from the broadcast came after pressure from Brendan Carr in the FCC. Kimmel said the FCC had, quote, threatened him. Jimmy Kimmel live, the ABC network, and ABC's affiliate and local stations based on simple traditional editorial decisions, guest bookings, it would seem they don't like, end quote. As Kimmel noted there, it is just the latest in a series of efforts by the Trump administration and the FCC to silence voices they're either threatened by or disagree with, including using the power of the federal government to try to get Jimmy Kimmel fired.

22:00Remember that. So we'll show you more of that interview. And the message Jimmy Kimmel says the Trump administration doesn't want you to see. Scripture tells us that you can't love God and hate other people. You can't love God and abuse the immigrant. You can't love God and oppress the poor. You can't love God and bully the outcast. We spend so much time looking for God out there that we miss God in the person sitting right next to us in that neighbor who bears the divine image. I was brought up to believe that in the face of a neighbor we glimpse the face of God. Matthew 25 tells us Christians exactly how we're gonna be judged and how we're gonna be saved by feeding the hungry, by healing the sick, by welcoming the stranger. I often wonder what would Jesus do if he visited the US Senate?

23:01I think he would tell the senators on the floor, depart from me, for I was hungry and you cut my food assistance. I was sick and you kicked me off Medicaid. I was a stranger and you deported me and my family. And then I think he would flip over those fancy desks on the floor of the US Senate and demand that we take care of all of our neighbors, especially the least of these. We don't hear that every day. We are joined now by my colleague, the weeknight co-host Simone Sanders Townsend. She interviewed James Tallerico before Jimmy Kimmel did. First of all, what did you think about, appearance? Honestly, James Tallerico I think is the real deal. And he is an actual preacher, like he's an actual record. And you can tell it makes a difference. I think that there's Democrats and Republicans that couldn't have did what he just did there. Matthew 2025, Matthew 25 rolling off the tongue and then pairing it up with what we are dealing with right now

24:03today, flipping the desk, flipping the tables. That's why you heard people in the crowd laughing. Anybody that grew up in just a little bit of church knows exactly what he's talking about. And I think he's resonating with folks in Texas because it's my understanding that's how he always talks on the campaign trade. So it's very not like Democrat Republican, then he talks like a what the former consultant and me would say is like a regular person, normal guy. James Tallerico walks in and it's like, okay, he at least understands. That doesn't mean he's without some challenges, specifically black and Latino voters in the state of Texas. But he has been, as he told me, trying to do the work showing up for communities, even when it's contentious, he says you have to go out there, ask where people's vote and he's treating black voters in Texas like a swing vote. So I do think he's right that folks are concerned about him, which is why they tried to keep him off the air and frankly succeeded in that. But also they dropped a lot of money. So if Donald Trump wants to hold his cash, that's one thing. But this was the first week that in Texas, Republicans outspend Democrats on the airwaves,

25:04$13 million to $4 million. Throughout the summer, Tallerico was outspitting everybody. So this is a different ballgame. And I got the sense that he is concerned about having the resources to compete. I think people see the numbers and they say, oh, Tallerico has a lot of money. He doesn't need any more. He's like, no, I need people to get big, big. What is the backstory of how the interview came to be? I know Tallerico said he is censored. Yeah, well, look, it's my understanding that obviously Tallerico was going out to California, they knew this, they had this planned. He did a, if today is Friday, he has a joint fundraising event actually, which I'd also off this planned. And so that's part of the reason that they're in California again, raising the money that they do need. They scheduled this interview because, you know, Jimmy Kimmel's only in California. You can only get on set with him when you're there. And they had every understanding that this was going to be on television. This is very different than the Colbert situation. When Steven Colbert did the Tallerico interview, he did it with every understanding that was going to be on television. And it was only after they filmed the interview.

26:05It was taped that Paramount, Paramount Company said, actually, no, you can't hear it. They had that by, it went on YouTube. ABC preemptively made the decision after having conversations and we're still trying to figure out with whom that they're not going to put this on television because of the entanglements for like a better term that they have with the FCC right now. ABC is suing the FCC, but the FCC has also threatened to take away some of their licenses. When I spoke to James Tallerico yesterday morning, he said, we just found out about this recently and we are still hoping it can be on television. They were not resigned to the fact that they were not going to be on TV. And I know that it's great that ABC is suing FCC, standing up for themselves. They've really fought for the view and other entities. And I think that's important, but I think that they need to call the administration's bluff. I really think that we're at the point where people cannot comply in advance. And totally. Here's the other thing. I mean, I have to do something. I mean, let me ask you a bit, you're consulting that back on. Like the worst thing that the FCC could do to Jimmy Kimmel

27:07is make him put on Kim Paxon, who Donald Trump said is, quote, badly dressed and ugly. Why not just call their bluff in that way and say, fine, Kim Paxon, come on, Trump says he's an ugly toad. I mean, I think, I don't think Kim Paxon actually has called to come on. I don't think it would be. But I'm just saying there's no, but like, what is the legal hammer hanging above Jimmy Kimmel or ABC's head on this? What could have happened? It is not really one. Right. People are scared. And this is, to be clear, I think that folks have lacked the experience of imagination, frankly, to what this administration is capable of. And this seems to me that the folks at ABC, they have an expansive imagination about what this administration is capable of. And I do think one of the things that the FCC could do under Brennan Carr is just yank the licenses. Like to be very clear, it's unprecedented. It hasn't happened, but there are many unprecedented things that have taken place, specifically just over the last 18 months. But make them call your bluff. Right? Or say, fine, we'll put on Paxon. I mean, Trump doesn't even like it seem to like him. No, and I frankly don't think Kim Paxon would both well, actually at the interview with Jimmy Kimmel,

28:08or will he even make the flight out there to see me having money because the Paxon campaign is not necessarily raising the kind of cash that the Tallerico campaign is raising. But at the end of the day, I do think this has put more eyeballs on James Tallerico, on just what he was going to say in this interview. People have gone, and obviously we're showing it on our air. People have gone to the YouTube channel. Let's watch a little more of it together. That's much more. Do we have some more? I think maybe he's having second thoughts for more again, Paxon, because this is how he's done this many times. And then they say, you can't say this, sir, it's so insulty, please, sir. You may not like the way he looks. The fact is that some may not like the way he dresses. I don't. They may not like the way he talks. I can see that, you know? I'm James Tallerico, and I approve that message. Oh, I am. I mean, Ken's own staff reported him to the FBI.

29:13His own party, his fellow Republicans, impeached him for bribery, but actually his own defense attorney has endorsed me in this campaign. And now his biggest supporter is Colin and Mugley on National Television. But you can't make it up at this point. No, honestly, I think. Donald Trump has buyers or more. But what Tallerico did right there is something he often does. He's very good at getting his message in, talking about Kim Paxon's corruptness, talking about the people that have defected, if you will, from his orbit, and now are actually endorsing this. And, guys, exactly. And I mean, there's an ad with one of his, Pat, Paxon's closest aides that now Tallerico has. So, look, I don't know. Maybe Donald Trump is just sad. And he's like, maybe I should record. I think he'll start traveling with him because he takes to call him. He attacked his looks, his clothes, and the way he talks. I mean, Trump's world, I'm not sure what's left, but... He shoes. He buys a windshield, right? It's awesome. Thank you so much for being on our air yesterday from Texas

30:14and being here with us on set today. Thank you so much. Thank you. When we come back in the face of all of the darkness of the day, and all degree in the Trump administration, and the lawlessness, and the division, and the insults about people's clothes, and speaking, and looks, there is light, and a way forward. We'll be joined by the director of Lightworkers, a film that highlights the hard work real Americans are doing every single day to protect and save our precious democracy, along with some of very familiar to all of you who's right on the front lines every day. Stay with us.

31:17On September 26th, get tickets today at ms.now-slash-together. When you have hope, it doesn't mean you're not struggling. It doesn't mean you don't feel afraid. It doesn't mean you don't feel the weight of what's against you, but it is just the insistence that we go on. We do people disservice when we make it seem that, well, if you feel afraid, you can't act with courage, because you can, and that can help to empower you to move forward. So I just Congressman Jamie Raskin, of course, and on this day, when we are remembering and grappling with America's painful past on 9-11 and beyond, and dealing with our current political challenges as a country, that is right now led by someone who sees conflict of interest in his own personal enrichment, in rebels and division, among the American people and dishonesty from the highest levels of government. We decided that today was as good a day as any

32:17to bring you some light, a powerful and sobering and encouraging film that serves as an antidote to this administration's corruption, and it's authoritarian, power grab. It's attempt to seize our freedoms and our independent media. The film confronts all of that darkness with light and contagious doses of courage, like you just saw. In light workers, dozens of wide-ranging and diverse voices help show us all how we can cast a light forward to move forward, to preserving our democracy, engaging in peaceful civic action and rejecting political violence and division. Watch. Millions of people before us fought worse conditions

33:17against greater odds and they prevail. We can do the same thing. The best things in the history of the Union race have come from people who believe it's possible to do better. We are joined by light workers, director Bobby Roth and Democratic Congressman Jamie Ruskin of Maryland, right now. Thank you both so much for being here. Thank you. Psych to be with you. Congressman, let me start with you. I couldn't help but think about your own personal journey when you were talking about doing things not because you are or are not afraid or because you are or not in pain, but despite that fact, and then just doing the next right thing. I wonder what this day is like when the remembrances are about literally people who ran inside buildings

34:18to save other people. A lot of people are doing valiant things in the political arena to try to save our democracy. And I wonder how those thoughts sort of sync up with or contrast with the conduct of our current presidential administration. Yeah, well, it is a day when Americans are thinking and remembering about that extraordinary act of savage terror unleashed against us by religious fanatics and state-sponsored terrorists. And the response that the country had was reaching out and compassion and empathy for the victims and for their families. And I see so much of the history of our time as being like that. There are these savage assaults on America as in 9-11 or on our institutions. And then we have networks of pragmatic hope

35:20of people getting together to try to return to the basic values of the country and to try to find a way forward. So I found Bobby Roth's film really beautiful in showing those networks of hope and mutual solidarity that it'd been getting people through these really tough times. Bobby, I want to show a little bit of what I'm former Congressman Adam Kinzinger said about taking the first step because I think I think that's where the film is so instructive. It sort of tells you how to start. The hardest thing about kind of standing alone and saying the tough thing is the very first time you do it because you have this idea in your head of what the cost is going to be. And sometimes you don't recognize that the cost is going to be more severe. Sometimes it's bigger in your mind than what you thought. But that first step is always the most difficult. Once you make that, it becomes easier.

36:24What did you think of that? I, you know, when you're making the movie, you don't know what's going to be in it, what's going to be out. But that was one of those moments where I knew that was going to be in the movie because since we finished the movie, so many people now have seen it and it's a growing movement. And the thing that everybody seems to appreciate is they all want to know what they can do, which is the impetus for why I made the movie because everybody was saying what can we do. And the idea was just to inspire people with people like Jamie or Adam, but also from a real diverse viewpoint, I have people who are artists like Steve Anzanzan and Shepard Ferry, and we have people who are, you know, just full-time ecological activists. And I think the idea was just to show that you didn't have to agree with people on everything just to be united on the things that really count.

37:26This idea of sort of a coalition that comes together in this extraordinary moment is something that Julia Curley, who was Mike Pence's PDB briefer, talked about this week with me on my podcast. She was fired in the second Trump term for being trans and she said her great act of resistance was just to be a normal, you know, working mom in Virginia. And this idea though of speaking out, Congressman, you've been speaking out the whole time. I wonder what you're seeing sort of in culture and around the country in terms of people's willingness to speak out despite being afraid. Well, it seems like during the first Trump administration so much of the response we had was legalistic in the sense of this violates that part of the constitution and this violates that part of the constitution and this law and so on. And that is necessary and we are there

38:27to counter and expose all of the lawlessness in the corruption but we've really begun to move forward when we've had the artists and the musicians, the playwrights and the writers, the movie makers and the cultural uprising against all of the authoritarianism. And that's what we need because democracy is not just what takes place in the parliamentary setting or what takes place in a court democracy is what we all do. This is the project we take care of together. Democracy's not just a complex of rules and regulations and principles, democracy's an unfolding project and we're gonna keep going and we know that the resistance that we face from Trump and mega and oligarchs is all about preventing the great civilizing movements of our country from moving forward we've got a lot more work to do to spread democracy,

39:29freedom, progress, healthcare to everybody and a lot of work to do to protect humanity against artificial intelligence, climate change and so on but we've got to deal with this authoritarian threat first. And if all of that overwhelms you even a little bit you can also just sing. We'll show you one of the iconic artists featured in the film has to say about that on the other side. The end of the film In this day and age like laughter and art are acts of resistance. Every song of just a song is a beacon of light in this gathering darkness that provides its hope in gathering hopelessness. So don't stop singing, don't stop doing art, don't stop doing the thing that you can do because courage is contagious by censoring silencing yourself, you're doing the world a great to service. That is superstar musician Tom Marillo

40:30that's his interview for the film Lightworkers we're back with Bobby and Congressman Raskin. Bobby the artist with all due respect to the Congressman but the artist ended up saying some of the most potent things about how art and life and joy and beauty can be some of the best weapons against the darkness and the authoritarian impulses. Tom in particular, I think one of the strongest moments in the movie is when Tom talks about a moment in his life when he didn't do the right thing when he didn't stand up and he was silent and how he felt about it afterwards and it's been 40 years and he still feels it. And the idea of the movie was to show the humanity of these people. The same with Jamie who talks about hoping something like good luck charm or I forget the term that you used, like a chain. And the thing is the idea was to inspire people not to necessarily educate people

41:31but to make people see what's behind them and to make the people that we look up to as human. And the thing that Tom really emphasizes in Sotas Peter Coyote in the movie is that anybody can stand up. And even if you do just one thing and especially the whole movie to move towards Voting because as Henry Winkler says in the movie, voting becomes the one thing that we all can do. And I think that was the most disturbing thing about the last election that five million Democrats didn't even vote. So what we decided to do is build a movie that would move towards the midterms and that would encourage people just to go out and as a minimal vote and educate yourself. And then from there you can do anything beyond that. And I think Jamie can say it better than me. But that was what inspired me to keep going with the movie.

42:34And we didn't know what would happen with the movie. And when we finished it, I showed it to some pretty influential people and they said, you have to go out with it right now. You have to be direct. You have to go right to the people. So we're making the film available to anybody. It's no charge who wants to see it. And so Robert Hubble put it on his newsletter today. And this morning we had a thousand people sign up for a screening coming up on Tuesday night. And it's available to absolutely everybody. I watched it myself and highly recommend it. Congressman, you want to cook glass for it? Well, I'm going up to New Hampshire next weekend with my friend Annie Custer. And we're going to do some campaigning there for a bunch of our friends. But she set up a screening of the film because it's so uplifting and it's really soaring. And the message I take from it is that everybody in their own life in their own work and their own school can do something

43:34to move this process forward and to be the light. My dad said to us, when we were kids, when everything looks hopeless, you're the hope. And this movie's got the same message. You can just go be the hope for somebody else. Thank you both so much for being that for us today. We really needed it. Bobby Ross, Congressman Jamie Roskin. Thank you so much. There's a free online screening for the light workers on Tuesday, September 15th, and 7 p.m. Eastern. To watch it, you scan the QR code on your screen right now to sign up. It's open to everyone. Space is limited. Quick break for us will be right back. My guest on the newest episode of the Best People podcast is a long friend. He's a war zone journalist and anchor, turned mindfulness guru after having a panic attack on live television. We're talking about Dan Harris. He talks about what we were just talking about in the last segment. How action actually absorbs anxiety. Give it a listen and let us know what you think by scanning the QR code on your screen

44:35to become a premium subscriber. You'll get access to the episode tonight, or you can wait till Monday when it'll be out for everybody. One more break will be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes this week. We are grateful. Can I just quickly say hello to you? For me, being a part of this place has always been about the people, not about the politics. Why are you holding this sign? You've ever been to a protest before? He's saved. He's been a cover who allow us to enter their lives. How's everybody doing? Everybody doing okay? How long has been in line? I love human beings. To spend time connecting with them is the biggest blessing that I could ask for. From the field to the studio, Jacob is finding the heart of the story, connect with Jacob Soberoff. We can set 10 a.m. Eastern on MS now.