"She is with Trump nearly all the time"

0:00Ever since I was young, I've watched people working hard, chasing opportunity, making sacrifices, doing everything they can to build a better life. And now, we're shining a light on what matters most. Our economy, our national identity, our democracy, our future. The stakes have never been higher. It's all on the line. I'm the line with Alicia Menendez, weekdays at 12pm Eastern, on MSNow. And while the sailors on the Lincoln fight his war, while he fruitlessly drains our munitions and oil reserves, the president sleeps through his meetings. He golfs and trades stocks. See, he doesn't want to do the job. He wants to build his ballroom and travel with Natalie on their apparently defenseless flying palace,

1:01gifted by the Amir of Qatar. Hi again, everyone. I'm Fava Clark in New York. Senator John Assoff shot her around the world, sparked an absolute meltdown on the right. Both the White House and the MAGA media universe completely melted down over that simple line about traveling with Natalie on the Qatar e-gifted Air Force One. It's Natalie Harp, who does travel everywhere with Donald Trump. But even Trump himself did acknowledge somewhere in this news cycle, the closeness of their relationship. He did it in the book Regime Change to Authors Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Squam, where Donald Trump is described as telling his staff this, quote, Natalie was the only one who loved him as much as his wife and kids end quote. What we do know about the woman referred to again within the White House circle as quote,

2:05the human printer is that she is with Trump nearly all the time, including this weekend at his bedminster golf club. She provides him with positive news articles and social media posts. She helps him craft his latest social media rantings. And most notably, she was one of a very, very small group of people who was selected to be transported with Donald Trump inside a catering truck to take him off Air Force One onto a secret third plane when they were leaving Turkey this summer due to a potential threat from Iran. Now, thanks to brand new reporting in the Washington Post, we are learning that Donald Trump gifted Natalie Harp and two other young, seemingly very loyal White House employees, $45,000 for what they describe as quote, cash gifts for the holidays end quote. That is according to financial disclosures that were released by the Trump administration.

3:06Washington Post notes this quote, the gifts amount to about one third of the $150,000 salaries they each earned from their White House positions according to an annual report to Congress. And the Washington Post adds this quote, there are no other public instances of US presidents giving staff employed by the White House large cash payments. Government ethics experts said they were not aware of any other payments of the scale from a superior to a subordinate government worker. Washington Post spoke with Don Fox, the former acting director of the Office of Government Ethics or OGE in the Obama administration who said this quote, a large payment to a subordinate is not a circumstance that OGE ever really envisioned. This just doesn't happen. He said the most expensive gift he remembered receiving as a federal employee from a superior was a fruit basket around the holidays. White House denied that the payments violated any rules.

4:08Saying quote, the president has a longstanding practice of giving Christmas gifts to people in his orbit, including at times employees and aides both in government and in his time in the private sector. Okay, sorry to begin the hour of summer, favorite experts and brands. Joining us, my dear friend and colleague, senior political analyst, host of the Runaway Country Podcast, author of the substack, How the Hell, Alex Wagner's here, also joining us, Norm Eisen. He's the co-founder of Democracy Defender's Action and the publisher of the Contrarian. He also served in the Obama administration as special counsel and special assistant to the president for, wait for it, ethics and government reform. No, let me count the ways. I got married in George W. Bush gave me like a spoon and I had to disclose the gift on so many forms. I was like, can I give this back? It's lovely, but my God. I mean, the idea that cash lump payments are being given to someone that Donald Trump describes

5:13as quote, loving me more than my wife and kids is so bananas we need another fruit. The saga of Donald and Natalie continues, but it's totally foreign to ethics and law. And under 18 USC 209, it is illegal to supplement salary. It's one of the most fundamental rules. If I had gone into the Oval Office and said, President Obama, would you like to give $45,000 gifts to the people who work? He would have thrown me out. It's illegal and it raises the question of, what are these massive payments for? It's very interesting because there's multiple aids who got payments. And Nicole, you know this well, they're grossed up to the AP assistant to the president level of $195,000.

6:18And it begs a credulity when the White House says, Oh, it's just a Christmas gift. I mean, you know, maybe you get a Christmas stocking, but not with $45,000 in it. So it's another illegality and it does raise the question, what kind of loyalty is Donald Trump buying from his closest dates? Yeah, I mean, Alex, just to broaden the lens a little bit, he's someone who going back, you know, decades doesn't pay his lawyers, doesn't pay his bills, doesn't pay his consultants. But he found $45,000 to pay Natalie Harp. What do you think? I guess if you ride in enough trunks and sleep in enough men's locker rooms and hide out in enough catering containers, you get a big Christmas present. This is so disturbing, Nicole.

7:20I mean, just like take a step back. You have a group of young single women who personally enable Trump's most lured and ludicrous impulses and are quite clearly significantly reliant on Daddy's largest. What relationship? What dynamic does that remind you of? It is just like there are so many ethical questions as raises, if not legal ones, and I defer to norm on all of those. But also the thing that struck me when I read this is nobody in this administration is making what they say they are. They're either getting stocking stuff, gigantic stocking stuff, fresh from Daddy, like Natalie and Chamberlain and Margo, or they're raiding the coffers of the federal government for self enrichment like the Trump kids and the Trump advisors. Or they are shaking down outside interests as part of a side hustle like Corey Lewandowski at the Department of Homeland Security. I mean, they're all grifters and they're doing this at exactly the moment

8:20that they are making poor and working class Americans poorer and forcing them to work harder. It is just like astounding the level of, I mean, I say this, I think every time I'm on your show, but this level of amor, the amorality here really makes your eyes bleed. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to zoom past what you just said, Alex. I mean, there is a person that could stop at all today. Like, and if it stops and they want to call me and tell me, I'll get that on the air. So as you well, is the chief of staff. It is a staff position that often has like a cabinet rank because it's so important. And that job is, it doesn't get as much attention. We don't cover her the way we covered Kelly and Priebus because she's made clear that she's just literally like holding up the gate and letting all of his impulses and instincts and corruption and misconduct and illegal acts flow through it. She's not interested in stopping that, which is illegal. She's not interested in stopping that, which is unconstitutional.

9:22But you just honed in on something else. There's reporting that wasn't disputed that one of these aids was so concerning to the Secret Service that these letters that she was writing Donald Trump got out to journalists. And my name is Roman and Jonathan Swan reported that Natalie Harp's affection and written attachment to Donald Trump was of concern to the Secret Service. Now, they're in charge of one thing that's security. So it had to have been a security concern. A person that was so concerning to the Secret Service got $45,000 from Donald Trump. That is, there is a person in the White House in charge of making sure that those two things don't happen. That a person who is viewed as a security question mark doesn't get handed $45,000. It just raises a whole bunch of new questions, Alex. Yeah, the psychology of all this. I mean, she's running it like a political bordello. She's the madam. And she's allowed a bunch of, I mean, listen, I am not casting aspersions

10:24on the competence of these women. But they, I mean, Chamberlain is in charge of the White House ballroom and the minting of the $1 Trump coin. Natalie Harp is there to create an information bubble that has so created a climate of delusion that the president believes he should be headlining a Republican conference ahead of the midterms where his name is mud. And like Amargo Martin, the other one on the payroll to the tune of $45,000 Christmas bonuses is his in-house videographer. I mean, they enable the monstrous worst impulses of this president politically speaking. And nobody has their hand on the captains wheel, certainly not him. But Suzy Wiles is a woman. She is seasoned and she knows better. And yet this is the culture that she sanctions in the most inner sanctum of the executive branch. I mean, Norm, Richard Painter, who was the ethics official when I worked in the White House, who probably is the one that made me fill out 37 forms when the president and his president gave me a spoon.

11:25It was a pretty spoon, I don't know. I imagine that it was a whole dining set. It's just like a ladle. I think spoon is probably, I feel like I need to read more Martha Stewart. I don't think spoon is the right word. I think it might have been a ladle or something. But the idea that the ethics violations are so, there are so many of them that we don't even cover hat-check violations. And that's our mistake, right? Like these things should not be normalized. But I do think that this idea of cash payments for very young aides is something that may be an unintentional window into something even more toxic than an ethics violation. What is the capacity? What is in the system in terms of oversight of Democrats taking control of Congress? Well, the one House of Congress will have subpoena power. Should the House change hands, perhaps both houses.

12:27And that is an enforceable authority to demand documents, to hear from witnesses. I think the agenda will be very important to call pick the most grievous corruption scandals. Since we started talking about this, when we began the conversation a year ago, was why isn't the country paying attention to the corruption scandals? We've seen a series of them break through the $1.776 billion slash fund. That in some ways, that was like these payments for insurrectionists who were rightly prosecuted. We went to court and knocked that down. Got Trump's name off the Kennedy Center. Got that reflecting coup, pool case dismissed. Those stories have traction with American people that is hurting. They put Donald Trump there to line their pockets, not his own.

13:29And as for his inter my nickname in the White House was Mr. No, because I said no so often. Whoever has my job now, the name must be Mr. Go for it. Yeah, yeah. So you know evil here, no evil. I don't know what they call the person. I don't even have the person. I mean, to the point you're both making about the corruption and the weirdness as an issue that is breaking through. Alex, let me show you what John Stuart said last night. Donald Trump has an individual whose whole job is to reinforce his warped reality. And if you think you might go into that field and we're wondering what kind of qualifications you might need, buckle up. And it's so devoted that she sprints alongside his golf card when he's out on the links. She wants jumped in the trunk of an SUV to ensure she would be able to be with the president for a court appearance when they're born in upseats in the motorcade.

14:29She's reportedly slept in the Bedminster Women's locker room to be closer to Trump who wrote him letters that can only be described as love letters. The quote, I never want to bring you anything but joy. For the sake of my own sanity, I'm going to pretend that's referring to the dish washing liquid. This is unbelievable. The outside world is somehow fed into this woman, a single conduit. And from there, she is the filter to all of the information that is directly fed into Donald Trump's psyche. And by the way, Natalie Harp had repeatedly declined to get security clearances. Can we even trust her? I know it's so 2016 to say who's making sure that we're not being leaky with state secrets and national security information but who's making sure that the people that control the most sensitive national security information can be trusted with the most sensitive national security information Alex?

15:32Well, I mean, and this is not only someone who appears to be delusional and maybe has some kind of psychiatric condition as it concerns Donald Trump, but is in control of his phone, whom state leaders call to get Donald Trump on the phone is an essential conduit to the top. Most the figurehead of the American government and whose own personal story is riddled with questions and narratives that don't really seem right. I mean, there are so many question marks around Natalie Harp. It should give anyone who is concerned about an already just a White House that is so uninterested in protocol and information hygiene and national security. But this is just one level beyond. We talk about the cult of Donald Trump and I think we use that sort of offhandedly. But truly, it's almost, I mean, this is a person who looks like she's in a cult and from all outside assessments, it is a cult like atmosphere in there.

16:38And that is not the executive branch of government. I mean, I've never walked, I've never worked in there like you have Nicole, but it is unfathomable to me to imagine any other American president conducting himself like this and also being enabled by a group of people so blinded by power or money or the cult of personality that they're willing participants in it. It's kind of terrifying. Well, and it brings it back to Susie Wiles. Like what indifference to she have to US national security that she puts her on the plane. It doesn't not just on the plane on the helicopter. I mean, this woman is never more than six inches away if Trump needs her. Alex Wagner and Normaison will stand top of this together. Thank you both for starting us off today. When we come back, Donald Trump has doubled down on his strange story about what he was doing at ground zero in the days immediately following the September 11 terrorist attack. Even as more doubts are raised by a member of his own family. We'll bring you that story next. Also ahead, the Red Hot Controversy.

17:40Over Trump's 250-foot tall arch in Washington, D.C., why veterans groups are raising hell about it and later it's one of the biggest challenges of our time. How to stay informed and engaged without getting swept away by the non-stop stream of troubling news and information flooding our screens every minute of every day. We've got a big announcement on that front and a very special guest to tell us about it later in the hour. And then White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Donald Trump is doubling down on the latest rendition of his ever evolving years-long attempt to attach himself to the September 11th recovery efforts. This week ahead of the 25th anniversary of the terrorist attack of 9-11, Donald Trump said with family members of the fallen in the audience that in the aftermath of the attacks while visiting ground zero, quote,

18:42two firemen grabbed him under the arms and quote, literally lifted me up and quote, started running with me end quote amid fears that a nearby building might collapse quote on top of us. Now, Trump's claims about where he was and the actions he and others took in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of 9-11 had been disputed and fact checked over and over for years. Donald Trump insisted last night that quote, everything I said was exactly accurate end quote. But that invited a rebuke from inside Trump's family, Trump's own nephew who rarely speaks out is calling him a liar. Fred Trump posted this last night, quote, I try not to comment personally about my uncle, but his claim that he brought a crew of workers to help at the site so offends me that I need to speak out. He was not building a big building at the time. The only crew he claimed to bring to the site would have been secretarial and accounting employees from Trump Tower.

19:45I knew many of them. I'm pretty sure they were not capable physically to help if they could. I'm sure they would try. Regarding the U.S. Steel Building, ironically the grandfather of a very close friend of mine was one of the original engineers. The building was built strong. Second, the brother of a partner of mine was an engineer that was immediately called to perform an inspection. While people were originally concerned, it was eventually cleared for occupancy, not creaking and ready to fall. I hope this brings some truth to that story. I want to bring into our coverage retired U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel Amy McGrath and Paul Reikoff, who's with me at the table. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast. He's the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. How are you watching the things Trump is saying about where he was in the hours and days after night 11? Hey everybody, it's Rachel Maddo here. I wanted to tell you that more than a dozen of us from MSNOW are going to be in Texas on Saturday, September 26th.

20:52I'm going to be there. Lauren Sodon will be there. So we'll Jen Socky. A whole bunch of us are all going to be there in Texas. Tickets started just over 30 bucks each. And if you buy a ticket, you will get access to our new MSNOW membership free for a year. Tickets for Texas are on sale now. You can learn more at ms.nail slash together. Hope to see you in Texas. Every 9-11 is different. And every 9-11, there is politicization, there's squabbles, there's lies. But this one's pretty big. I mean, this is from the President of the United States. We have the receipts. I'm a 9-11 first responder. I was down there. I didn't see him. I could have missed him maybe. But it's supposed to be the most unifying time for our country. And what really saddens me and frustrates me and angers me is that every year seems to be more divisive, more politicized, more nasty. I'm teaching my kids now about 9-11. My oldest boy is 11. Last night, I actually showed him President Bush's speech at Ground Zero because it was so powerful.

21:54And I wanted him to see what it was like when people in his neighborhood, in his city, were unified. That's gone now. And I think there's a lot of blame to go around, but most of all on him for setting the command climate, for honoring people appropriately. But he has no honor. He has no integrity. And this is just the latest reflection. I would like to call it a new low, but he might come up with a new one before we're done on this hour. How do, I mean, it's so hard to hear you say that. I mean, I think of how changed Bush was by 9-11. Eileen Howard gave Bush the badge of her. I think that's the name if I have it wrong, I apologize. And he carried it with him and he had it in his desk. And the things that people did that day to save other people feel like should be preserved at all costs from everything political. I mean, the problem that I have with what this day has become, it's become about the politicians. And if I had, you know, if it was my call, I would make them all stay away. Mamdani, Trump, Hocal, all of them make them all stay away. J.D. Vance stayed all stay away because it's become so contaminated by the politics and what they're going to do or what they're going to say.

23:02And we've lost sight of the heroes of that day. We've lost sight of how spectacular our country and our countrymen were in that terrible and atrocious moment. That was the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. And simultaneously the most beautiful and inspiring thing I've ever seen in my life. And we're losing a bit of that. And the next generation especially needs to learn the history because they weren't even born yet. And our commander of chief has got to lead that public education, that healing and that unity. I can't even talk about it without crying. And just thinking about teaching a new generation about it, there's some age appropriate books that my son has read and that we've read together. And it feels like if you want to raise kids to not just believe that they're better things but to know that they happen not that long ago, you teach them about what happened that day, about what people did, about the idea of being made of something character wise where you go into a burning building. And I wonder Amy what your thoughts are about reclaiming this day for the heroes.

24:06Yeah, I think what Paul said is really right when I look back at 9-11, yes, it was a terribly tragic day. But try to look at how we responded as a country that the heroes of that day were real heroes. And how we came together and part of that was leadership. You know, when I hear the president, it's flat out lie about his role, lack of role, it's more than embellishment. And he seems almost incapable of reverence. The reverence that is required for this day, I mean, 3,000 Americans were murdered that day and hundreds of firefighters died running into buildings, into buildings. And sometimes leadership means that you've got to recognize the moment isn't about you. And so I hear what Paul is saying about, hey, I wish politicians would stay away.

25:11You know what? I wish politicians would be leaders again. That's what I wish. Amy, can you hear us? Yes, can you hear me? Yeah, just remind us of your memories in your day on 9-11. Yeah, so 9-11 for me, I got a call from my sister, hey, go, I was I was stationed in Miramar in San Diego, California. I was a young Marine Corps weapons officers at F-18 weapons officer brand new to the squadron. And after the call from my sister that said, hey, check the TV, the call was from the Marine Corps saying, get your rear end on to base. And I did. I went in, I loaded up all my flight gear went out to the combined arms loading area and hopped in an F-18.

26:11And it was filled with six air-dair missiles. And we stood on the runway at Miramar Marine Corps air station runway 24 right for about four hours waiting for the order to launch to potentially shoot down an airliner. Which we didn't know what would happen right in the west coast. We didn't know what was going on. So that was my day. And then it was after that when I got to see everything that happened. And it's something and a memory for everybody in my generation has a different memory. Thank you for sharing that. I guess I hope that we can turn it back to these conversations. It's important that we not look away from what Donald Trump does with this day. And it's important that people see what he is saying and doing that takes away from the honor, your honor and yours.

27:12But I hope we can try to grab back the wheel. On that note, when we come back, how veterans and veterans groups are stepping up. Their opposition to Donald Trump's 250-foot tall arch. They say it is in a front to the men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice in service of our country. We'll bring it up reporting next. There's a lot of news to cover. Money. The time for the business, all eyes on the new Fed chair, the economic fallout from the war. Is it tempered? Power. The president is now a major crypto industry operator. Is this White House for sale? Politics. Is there an energy to respond to this aggressive gerrymandering? It has never been more important to be informed and engaged. Money powered politics with Stephanie Rool, weekdays at 9 a.m. Eastern on MSNow and find more on the MSNow app. Veterans and veterans group, as well as many Democrats, are escalating their fight to halt construction.

28:17A Donald Trump's plan 250-foot tall arch that arch is supposed to have a tourist observation deck right at the entrance of Arlington National Cemetery. The veterans say the arch would disrupt military burials during construction and the resting place of more than 400,000 service members for the rest of time. Here's part of their powerful new eye campaign. I'm the proud Gold Star mother of First Lieutenant Ken Ballard. He was killed in the Iraq war. Ken is buried at Arlington. So for me, Arlington has been a nice quiet place. This proposal by this administration doesn't bear well with me. There will be an observation deck. We don't need tourists overlooking funerals. I'm just appalled. The fourth and front of me is the Lincoln Memorial Memorial Bridge Memorial Circle and Arlington National Cemetery behind me. Memorial, the use of that word is not an accident. I'm Charles Burremem. I'm the founding president and CEO of the Cultural Landscape Foundation.

29:20Go to the top of the Lincoln Memorial and you'll see the views Arlington National Cemetery. Today, that is at risk. The relationship would be altered by a 250 foot tall monumental arch that will alter that hollow ground and that feeling and association that everyone has when they experience the cemetery. We're back with Amy and Paul. I remember once coming on the air and saying sort of cheekily the bottom's calling it wants to know for the area. I feel like an idiot every time I remember that. But to not go into something like this with deference and buy-in from the people that sort of speak for the most sacred heroes in our country is appalling. But to get to this point where they're having to fight it just does feel like a new bottom. It is. It can get lower because I think veterans are going to protest. Veterans are going to stand on that construction site and say no and I'm happy to stand there with them because it is appalling.

30:25It is offensive and I think it's really important for folks to understand. Arlington is sacred. It's a cemetery. But it's designed to be a visual reminder to lawmakers about the cost of war. It's there intentionally within the view of Washington DC and the corridors of power so they never forget the true cost of war so they can see the headstones. And talking that is offensive. It's outrageous. I think there is bipartisan pushback on this. And I think there's also it's an activation moment. It's a chance for people to push back and say this is a line you should not cross. Especially the week of 9-11 and it will near veterans week very soon. I think it's aligned too far to cross and I hope everybody will push back. Amy, what are your thoughts? Well, obviously there's the fact of where this is located near Arlington. What Paul said is absolutely correct. Arlington is the final resting place for hundreds of thousands of men and women who served our country and family members. And it's just appalling. But there's also why keep thinking about this.

31:26There's no public debate or input going into this arch thing. Our national memorials have never been a vanity project for one president. They've been national projects in the past. Authorized by Congress, bipartisan. We bring in historians, architects, citizens. There's a public debate. The World War II memorial took over a decade. That's how we do things in our nation. That's how we build memorials. How we honor our dead. And this one will never be a symbol of national unity. It will never be a symbol of anything other than division. And that's why I think this whole thing is doomed to fail. Do you think it gets bail, Amy? I don't. No, I mean, it's going to take a long time. We're going to have hopefully a Democratic president. Congress is going to step up.

32:26And I really do believe there's going to be push back to this and it's not going to happen. Amy, we're going to have Paul Rikoff. Thank you both so much for joining us today. When we come back, how to consume this, the news, without letting it consume you. $64 million dollar question, right? Well, we've got something really exciting to share with you on that front. They're a very short break. Don't go anywhere. My feels like the lyrics from We Didn't Start the Fire, right? Gas prices up, mass deportations everywhere you look at demolished east swing literally. It's very easy to feel depressed and stressed and overwhelmed by all of it. We know that. But my next gas, Jan Harris wants to help us slash me. Learn how to consume the news and share the news without the news consuming all of us. Today, as we mentioned, is a huge day for us at MS now. We are launching something that we hope becomes very meaningful to you. MS now, memberships, it's a way to get more of us as if two hours isn't enough with us, with our reporters.

33:32And with all of you who are watching, sometimes alone or with your own family at home. Part of that includes offering two new weekly series that are hosted by my longtime friend, Dan Harris. He's a former ABC News anchor and correspondent. He has become a mindfulness leader and coach. Here's a little from his series, The Week in Sanity. This is Professor and Meditation Teacher, Jay Michelson. We can't just run on either fear, anxiety or anger all of the time. It's not that those things aren't appropriate. Sometimes they really are and they can be really motivating. But skillful rage instead of unskillful or skillful concern rather than sort of freaking out an anxiety. That's where I think resilience can really make a difference, not just for our own benefit, but for the benefit of everybody else. I want to bring in my new colleague, host of MS now, The Week in Sanity, Dan Harris. See, I feel like you got the title, Sanity.

34:33I feel like if they added one in line, it would be insanity. Well, the White House, right? I mean, what's that all the John Stuart thing? When news breaks, we fix it. So maybe that's my role here. Okay, so we've been talking about meditation for as long as I've known you. And I took from you something you said on the show around the election about never suffering alone. And that to me feels like everything that this community is and everything that these mindfulness sort of shows and practices and the content is about. I think this is huge. One of the biggest pain points for us is that we feel isolated and alone and we're drinking from this fire hose of news information. And we feel like there's nothing we can do about it. We have nobody to talk to about it. Maybe we're blue dots in a red state. And so I think a big word a red family or a red family. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's even more painful. So one of the goals of this new membership and one of the big goals of my work writ large is to give people a community a place to never worry alone so that you're not feeling like you're struggling in isolation.

35:42Interesting study. Two people, sorry, you take a person, you have them look at a big hill and then you have them gauge how high is the hill? Then you haven't do it again with somebody standing next to them. The hill looks smaller. Yeah, the community. Huge. We evolved for human connection and yet we live in a society that militates it against it at every turn. And that's why we're so depressed and anxious. We need each other and that's the point of this work. I mean, I feel like my parallel track on this has been watching the country find the turning points in the Trump story and the community that arose after the two murders in Minneapolis. And I could not watch what was happening in Minneapolis and those people that had never protested before, spilling into the streets, some of them who were Republicans, some of them who had never protested before, finding community at this moment when all of the most powerful corporations and law firms in universities were capitulating. Just talk about how community leads to superhuman feats.

36:42Because it gives you, it makes things seem doable. It makes the mountain in front of you seem smaller. Again, I just go back to why we are so anxious and depressed these days. It's because we have this culture that is counter evolutionary. Think about how we evolved. We became the apex predator on this planet because we have this ability to cooperate and communicate. We don't have talents. We don't have poison. We don't have wings. We have this ability to work with one another. And when we overlook that, when we build a society that diminishes that through consumerism and individualism. And technology. And we see what we are seeing now where people feel helpless and cut off. And so Minneapolis is a great example of what can go right when we just embrace our nature. How did you end up in the sork? I knew you when you were a news anchor. Yes. Yes. Well, I worked at ABC News for 21 years. And probably the thing I am best remembered for is having a panic attack on Good Morning America, which happened back in 2004. And if you Google, don't do this right now.

37:45If you Google panic attack on television. Don't dare them. My audience is like, they know everything. Okay. Back to everything. Well, you'll see that mine is the number one result. I think there are like 20 million views from my panic attack. My mother is very proud. And what, so that's a bad news. The good news is. And what happened? I was reading the news and I stopped being able to breathe, which is very inconvenient when you're anchoring the news. And the backstory is that I had spent a lot of time as a young correspondent in places like Iraq and Afghanistan after 9-11. And I got depressed. And then I started doing something incredibly stupid, which is I self-medicated with recreational drugs. And even though I wasn't high on the air, it was enough I later learned from my psychiatrist to change my brain chemistry in a way that made it more likely for me to freak out. So after I had that panic attack, I started seeing a therapist. And then I ultimately started getting interested in meditation. Then I wrote a whole book about it called 10% Happier and My Life Change.

38:48But you come at it with this thing that I think maybe is because of how you arrived at it, but also as a journalist, like some healthy skepticism. Yes. You know now from talking about this for probably 10 years, that I still have skepticism about it. I want to understand how you start. Okay. How you start meditating? Let me just be clear. But I started my career, I guess my post news career, talking about meditation. But I evolved to the point where I like talking about, I think of myself as a happiness with Army knife. Like I talk about all the modalities that are available in terms of doing life better. So it can be meditation, exercise, sleep, diet, relationships, all of those things. But as to meditation, many people say to me, I know I should be doing it, but I'm not doing it and I feel guilty about it. I'm not going to name any names, but her first initial is Nicole. And she feels this way. It's like eating the 30 grams of protein.

39:48Exactly. Exactly. So here's the answer. Start small. Okay. All of the research around human behavior change indicates that starting small is the most successful strategy. Can we do it together? Now that you're here. Sure. You want to meditate on the air? Yeah, let's do that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Why don't we do it today? Why don't we do it in the podcast? Okay. Okay. Okay. We're talking tomorrow of the podcast. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I feel a little less, you know, made up and stuff in the podcast. Fair enough. Maybe we'll do the little increments together and then maybe if we bring along one person. I can do a one minute meditation with you. Okay. Seriously? Yes. And that's better than nothing. It's a million times better than nothing and it is the best way to start. Okay. Start small. Okay. All right. We'll do it. I'm so happy you're here. I mean, so we obviously just really need you. Thank you. Thank you for being here. I think you're being here here. You can get much more from Dan and from all of us here at MSNow by signing up for this. This MSNow membership. Go watch your favorite shows. You can talk with your favorite host. You can find exclusive reporting and analysis and importantly, you can do what we're talking about.

40:49You can connect with not just us but other people who care as much about our beautiful country and our precious democracy as you do. You scan the QR code on your screen or head to ms.nl slash membership to join us. But Frank will be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People Podcast is truly extraordinary. She is another public servant whose name we really weren't supposed to know. She didn't want that. Julia Curly was pushed out of the CIA during the second Trump administration for being trans in our conversation. She told me. But she learned as a CIA officer who studied the sort of anti-authoritarian opposition movements that take hold in other countries. Listen. I were going to isolate one trait that separates the movements that succeed and resisting their their authoritarian leaders and the movements that fail. It's the the oppositions that hold together against common goals that subsume their differences

41:54until after they take power and putting aside your differences of approach and making partners with with people you wouldn't normally unite with and not elevating factional disputes above all other things. I think that's that's critical because the other side is trying to do that. They're trying to divide and conquer the persecution of trans people is one of those things to try to wedge different factions of the opposition apart from each other and just to not fall for it. She is absolutely must listen. Scan the QR code on your screen or download the best people wherever you get your podcast. Julia offers so much insight into the difference between this second Trump term and Trump's first term and a level of generosity for all human beings and optimism that surprised me. Let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back.

42:58Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful. Money. The economic fallout from the war. Is it temporary power? Is this White House for sale? Politics. What is your message to the country right now? Money powered politics with Stephanie Rule. We gaze at 9 a.m. Eastern on MS now. And find more on the MS now app.