"The 25th anniversary of 9/11"

0:00Ever since I was young, I've watched people working hard, chasing opportunity, making sacrifices, doing everything they can to build a better life. And now, we're shining a light on what matters most. Our economy, our national identity, our democracy, our future. The stakes have never been higher. It's all on the line. I'm the line with Alicia Menendez, weekdays at 12pm Eastern, on MSNow. Hi, everyone. It's 4 o'clock in New York. At this moment, 25 years ago, 4pm in the east, a city, a nation, and a planet, we're all sort of suspended in the gap between an old normal and a brand new one. On the afternoon of September 11, 2001, is the images of smoke over Manhattan and the Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania.

1:00We're coming into focus for hundreds of millions of human beings. And as some of the bravest people our country has ever known, took actions that will be lifted up for as long as people study human history. We're just starting to be known. Stories about firefighters who rushed into and up the stairs of burning smoke-filled melting steel buildings. That was happening. Commercial airline passengers who called loved ones to say goodbye and then gathered together as a single unit to take down an airplane, to crash it before it could do more damage by crashing or flying into populated areas. Men and women at the Pentagon, who instead of running from the impact and the flames or a jet had crashed into the Pentagon, instead ran toward the flames and the impact to save others. Thousands of young Americans who changed the course of their own lives

2:03in our country's history, changed whatever plans they had after that day, after they heard of some of these stories and decided to serve their country and to protect America by serving in the military, by serving in the FBI or the CIA or other branches of government. Acts of character and courage that before that day were unthinkable, heroics that then quickly collided with tragedy and the loss of way too many innocent lives on that day and in the months and the years that followed. The chapters that have followed 9-11 have for our country and our politics at times been fraught. But in the immediate aftermath, it was a time that was defined by an overwhelming sense of strength and togetherness, a swelling of the New York City soul and the American soul. It transcended divisions for a while, divisions that in that moment seemed distant and petty.

3:06So this afternoon, our country is indeed unified in trying to remember all that and as best we can honor all that. But also in the understanding that unity and that harmony that we live through and witnessed in the aftermath of 9-11 is largely gone, at least from our politics. And perhaps in the same way that our nation was at this hour on that day in the Sim between Gap, an old normal and a new normal so to our Americans today in the middle of an old normal and a new one. That includes the very infrastructure that was erected in the aftermath of the attack, take the Department of Homeland Security. For instance, it's an agency that was created to find bad guys who wanted to do things like the attacks of 9-11 and protect the country, protect the homeland. And now much more closely resembles a government agency seemingly concerned with mass deportations, targeting immigrants, migrants, asylum seekers,

4:06and at times targeting and causing harm and killing Americans themselves. This afternoon a former secretary of that agency, Jay Johnson, suggests that it is time to adopt for a new future, a different one. From his piece in Law Fair Quote, government policy makers with the best of intentions to often respond to the circumstances of the moment. 25 years after 9-11, the Homeland Security threat environment and capabilities have changed significantly. The DHS constructed in 2002 is now outdated, reviled by money and was imperfect from the start. A task now to rebuild a national public safety apparatus responsive to the present day. Agile enough to respond to any evolving future, which will inspire confidence not scorn. An evaluation of the present and a look at the future of American safety is where we start today. Former Homeland Security Secretary Jay Johnson joins us, also joining us, military analysts, and retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling joins us. With me at the table, our dear friend Mike Bronnacle.

5:10We've had so many of the conversations in between, like in between this day and in between that day. I was telling you before I came out here, this one just hits so differently. For me, it's not the politics that are top of mind. It's explaining maybe to a new generation what people did that day. Like that there were people that went into buildings as they were melting and burning to save other people. And we are so far from having that be the thing, in the four or the thing that's in focus. But it's all I can think about today. Well, you're not alone. I mean, I think today was a marvelous day in one sense because it provided us with the anchor of memory. And the memory of what happened that day and how people reacted that day was a great thing for America. It proved who we were that day. We were all together. We are no longer together the way we were that day.

6:11I don't know whether we ever will be. But when you think about that day, and I've been thinking about it obviously all day and all week as you have, I'm sure. You find yourself crying at odd times over odd things. And one of the things that makes me cry every time I think about it and I'll try not to cry about it right now, are all the phone calls that were made by people. People calling from planes that they knew were going to go down. People calling from the top floors of the both towers, the South Tower and the North Tower. And no matter what they left with, they left a phone message, whether they reached a family member, but nearly all of them ended the calls that you hear now on tape if the families would play them for you and they have for me. A couple of them. They end with, I love you. And that phrase, that simple phrase,

7:12is something that more Americans want to get used to feeling. The country was changed forever in that day. It's no longer the same country. I don't even like the word homeland. It smacks to me of something out of World War II in not a good way. But this is still a marvelous place to live. It's the greatest country on Earth, but it's no longer the same country. We have ruined alliances with countries. I mean, our friends in Canada were enormous for that day for us. They showed up for Americans who had to land planes up there. And now we have a president who regards Mark Karney as more dangerous individual than Vladimir Putin. That's where we are. But back to the day itself, the day that we mark, the day that we walk through today, gives you a feeling of what it once was and you can only hope that we can get there again.

8:16What it is that sort of stands out to me and that you see every day if you get to live in this city is that New Yorkers are still like that. New Yorkers, for all that our politics have changed, in New York when someone stumbles in a crosswalk or the light change and they're someone very young or very old and across the New Yorkers are the same. They're still looking up. They're not always staring down at their phones. And I was in DC that day, but I think that if anything has stayed the same, it is sort of the tenacity of the American people. I watched something and interview with the gentleman who cleans the pools and his shift is midnight to 8 a.m. and the care with which he goes about treating that hollow ground. Just the tenacity of getting back on subways and getting back on airplanes. I mean, I think a lot about the city that had the largest loss of life and how it's responded and it's a remarkable thing to be here on any night, but today felt especially sort of electric.

9:20Yeah. And this morning and all day long, actually, and even prior to the start of September 11th, today, the start of the midnight hour last night, it reminds me of service. Right. Service to the country. The New York Fire Department, 347 were lost. Many others were injured. Many have since died from sort of diseases that they picked up around the rubble and climb in the pit. Sally Jenkins in the Atlantic had a marvelous piece earlier this week about one firefighter and the pieces, the pieces entitled The Man who refused to sit on the sidelines. And this is about Lieutenant Kevin Dowdell who was head of rescue four out of Queens. He died. His remains have not yet been identified all these years later. He had a wife and two sons. The boys were small. They were young obviously when he died on that day.

10:20September 11th. His oldest son went on to serve in Iraq and Afghanistan. His youngest son is doing very well in New York City. Both remember the father vividly. Both of them when they were in high school, they were in high school when their father died. Both of them worked multiple evenings on the pile at night, alongside other firefighters who allowed them to work with them and watched over them because of their father, Kevin Dowdell. They worked on the pile looking for their father's remains, hoping to find their father's remains. That's service above and beyond the call of duty and it's service that was rendered to this city and to this country by many, many others. General Hurling, there are so many stories of young men and women who change the course of their lives decided to serve their country after this day. Either as young adults or as high school or college students

11:25and I know you let a lot of those men and women. What are your thoughts today? Well, first of all, I'm going to come at on Mike's suggestion that homeland is not a good name for an agency. We definitely changed as a nation on 9-11, but we also changed his individuals. We became more fearful. We became less secure. We woke up that morning before the planes hit, thinking always right with the world. I was in New York that day on a four-day pass. Believe it or not, out on Long Island. I had to rush back to the Pentagon where I was serving my first assignment. I just remember that everyone changed that day. There was fear in the air. When you have a lot of fear, you can't be your best self. We have a people. I don't know a whole lot of people who wake up every morning and say, I'm going to be a jerk today. I'm going to be a bad person. Most people wake up thinking that they're going to be

12:27do something good or be a good person. We changed that day. We became afraid of everything. But to your question, and that's sad because that's why I don't like the name Homeland either, like Mike does, because it's more than that. We live toward an aspiration of who we want to be and how we want to act. That's what our country was founded on. Our ideas and our ideologies and our values of respecting one another and all people being created equal. To answer your question about it, soldiers though, you know, it was interesting. Those who served, I'll give you one example. I was in Iraq in 2004 and I always just asked soldier, why soldiers, why did you join the army? And most of them, the vast majority of them would say, I joined because of Nilella. Some would say, you know, I joined because my uncle told me to or my dad said it would be good for me. But there was one individual and this is the part of the story that's interesting.

13:27I was interviewing a new aid. I was a one-star general and I had a second lieutenant as an aid. And a bunch of guys came in and I was asking them about their background. And one of those aid said he was a, you know, I looked at his record and he was a Harvard graduate. And I said, wow, what happened? He goes, well, when 9-11 did I join the army? And I said, well, tell me about your parents. Would they think about you joining the army after graduating from Harvard? He said they were not too happy about it. I said, really, why not? And he said, well, both my parents are professors. His name was Joe Goodwin. His mother is Doris Kerns Goodwin. And I didn't realize that. I had read many of her books. And yet here is her son who was planning on a different career joining the military because of Nilella. And he was a great lieutenant. And I chose him as my aid because he was a good guy. That's the kind of things that we saw for a very long time. People who wanted to serve something bigger than themselves, who realized the country had been injured

14:29and they had been injured because perhaps they were a little bit too selfish in going about their ways. And that's also something we need to get back to, Nicole. That's something that I keep returning to that we have to think more about others and the goodness that we have in our hearts versus some of the divisiveness that you were talking about earlier. Jay, if you asked 100 people, 100 people want that, right? No one is on the other side of that question. Do you want to return to a time when we felt by necessity and tragedy that we had each other's back and we could sort of stand in the breach for each other against anything that threatened us? And when you talk about reforming this department, it's more than just sort of become a symbol for something that doesn't quite fit right. It's also really the epicenter of the gravest accesses

15:31in terms of how we, in the name of all Americans, treat other people who came here many of them, seeking asylum, many of them fleeing violence at home. Just give boys to how much, not just the country's change, but this agency has changed. Well, thanks for having me, Nicole. First of all, the term homeland, I talked to me to be objective about this because the term will forever be attached to my credentials and was the honor of my life to lead this department of 230,000 people devoted to homeland security, to public safety in our homeland. I do think that, as you noted at the outset, that the threat environment has changed dramatically in this country. In 2001, 2002, we viewed terrorism as an extra territorial threat from without our borders.

16:32Do a better job of regulating who enters this country, you will have effectively dealt with terrorism. That was a thinking then. Since then, the terrorist threat to our nation is in addition home born, home grown, inspired by what people here in this country see on online mass shooting, mass violence that could have a terrorist motive, could have a political motive. And the current DHS is not equipped to deal with that, which is why I have called for us to rethink and reimagine public safety on our national level by further consolidating into one cabinet level department. Almost all of federal law enforcement de-conflict their missions, get rid of the Turk battles and have it the responsibility of one cabinet level official which can meet today's threat environment, as well as something that can endure in the future. We're not well positioned now, frankly,

17:33to deal with today's threat environment. And we should not have to wait for the next crisis to finally develop the political will to make such a large change. Yeah, the thing that you hear, and I'm sure you hear this as often as I do, from national security folks, like our current gas, is that there is anxious now about how exposed America is and how we have really pulled back in terms of the brain drain, both at the CIA and the FBI, in the name of political purges, and the focus, the obsession really, with deporting people. There is that, there's all of that. And what I think may have happened, I don't think it may have happened, it has happened, is we have slowly become more inward as a nation, and more inward as people. We used to know our neighbors. We really know our neighbors anymore. And I think it's linked to a series of chain of events

18:37that occur at after September 11th. When September 11th occurred, there was no iPhone, there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram, there was no TikTok, there was nobody walking around, streets, busy streets, staring at something. There was eye contact in America, much more so than there is now. And I think that's part of what has happened, that's part of the pattern of us removing each other from our neighbors, from our friends, we've become more inward. And when you become more inward, it's easy to become more fearful. Obama talked about that at the Democratic Convention two years ago. It's not just the way we sort of communicate with our phones. I mean, they're used to not, all the bikes that are just ubiquitous now, they're delivering things. People used to be there in parrots. Like one of the reasons you live in New York is there are, there's the drugstore in every corner. People have everything delivered. I mean, it is sort of the twin traumas, if you will, of the terrorist attack and then the pandemic,

19:38but have people sort of in their homes ordering things on their phones, instead of driving to the diner as a family. You know, I'm old. I'm old too. When I see people, even if I don't know them, and they say, hello, I say, hi, how are you? And they're struck by the, how are you? Yeah. It was asked me that, you know, since I left the house, you know, about two weeks ago, whatever. But it's funny what's happened to this country. It's funny. It's kind of frightening in its own way. That we no longer know who we are. We no longer really know who we are as a country. It's not the homeland. It's America. It's us. It's America. Yeah. But can I get you to stay warmer, Black, I know you're racing against a fight, do you? I mean, because I think the thing that we've got it just a teeny bit, is no one wants it that way. I mean, if you ask 1,000 people, I think all 1,000 of them would like to be, that's why you have young people playing Ma Zhong and going to Bridge Night and, you know,

20:38putting down their phones and looking for start-ups. I was telling someone about my day on 9-11 and I said, you know, the part of the problem is I had a start-tech and my battery didn't last very long. But I left the White House so fast and in my chart, you know, again, not to sound a thousand years old. But there's so much more here. I'm going to ask all of you to stick around a little bit longer than maybe we planned to. Also, head for us. We'll turn to Donald Trump's dismantling of the rule of law in our country. When the plans you have to go after your enemies are too far-fetched, too much, too unethical, for even a member of your own inner political circle. We all have to wonder just what Trump's Justice Department is doing. Plus, another staggering windfall for a member of this White House team, but the man negotiating Middle East peace collected from the Trump family's cryptocurrency company, blurring the lines spectacularly between working on behalf of the American people and making money. And later in the broadcast, we'll show you what Democratic Senate candidate James Teleriko told Jimmy Kimmel in the interview,

21:38the FCC didn't want any of you to see. We'll get to all those stories and much more when Denlin White House continues after Quick Break. Don't go anywhere. Join MSNOW live in Texas for our biggest event yet with Rachel Maddo, Chen Socky, Michael Steele, and more. MSNOW live together in Texas, September 26th. Get tickets today at ms.now slash together. And my father, Michael Maseroli, this is an unusual position to be in the last one to go here. I got to admit, I think the one parting thing I want to leave everyone with is that you do my dad's legacy and the legacy of my life. I want to leave everyone with my dad's legacy and the legacy of all these victims, no honor by using this tragedy to spread hate. We have seen a medley of people come up today of all races, all religions, all creeds, and this tragedy is just that.

22:39It's a tragedy. And it shouldn't be, I've had to grow up and spend the past 25 years seeing people use it to hate on our Muslim brothers and sisters, to hate on people who don't look like that. And that's wrong, and that does no honor to the victims here. And I want to use the little platform I have to ask for that. Please stop. For a remarkable moment, Secretary Johnson, that was the, to me, one of the most powerful things that was said today by anybody. Yeah. I typically go to that observance every year. I'm going to go back there this morning. And I'm a trustee of the memorial. We try very hard not to let any sort of political rhetoric seep into the event. We're not always successful, but I thought that was a nice note to end on. I do want to come back to something. You were talking about leadership earlier.

23:41I thought that one of the finest acts of leadership after 9-11 was when President Bush went to the Islamic Center in Washington, D.C. And I remember one of his remarks was Islam is peace. I thought that was a good impulse in the immediate aftermath of 9-11. And we see that so rarely now among our leaders. And we obviously need more of that. We need more of the herosum that we saw on 9-11, both at the Pentagon on United 93 and not the World Trade Center. I'm personal friends with people who are at the World Trade Center, people who are at the Pentagon that day. And many of them had escaped the burning buildings, but then made a conscious decision to go back in to save other lives. And I hope and pray that that spirit still exists in this country. Mr. Secretary, the President Bush talked about that moment and that decision

24:42that he made. Let me just play that moment. I'll read it. He said, I didn't want us to lose our soul. I wanted, as we defended our freedoms, I wanted people to remember how precious they are. One of the things I did shortly thereafter was to go to a mosque because I was deeply concerned about stories of women of color being harassed at shopping centers, particularly in Michigan. It became clear to me that this is an ideological struggle, which is what I view it as. And we forego one of the most important parts of our ideology, which is the freedom to worship, the way you want to worship, the way you want to worship, where you want to worship, and all of a sudden the enemy is one, the victory. I said that was part of my thinking in doing that. I thought about that moment, but I'm usually reluctant to be the one to bring out my whole boss. It seems that that, in and of itself, feels like another timeline, another chapter in our politics, when you've got members of one of the two parties

25:44who certainly know better, some of whom are around at that time, people in the media ecosystem that lifts up that party, amplifying those lies, when the leader or a couple of leaders of the Republican Party thought the most important thing to do in the media and aftermath. And I worked on just some of the advanced movements for that trip, was to go to a mosque. Yeah. You know, we talk about whether the same thing happened today. We could respond in the same way I do worry about that, because of the conspiracy mentality that exists today. I think one of the problems we have, and I expect a general can comment on this, our leaders, our political leaders, so rarely now, ask Americans for something. Like, I need your help. I need America to come together at this moment. And if our political leadership is willing to extend themselves this way, take that chance.

26:45I tend to believe that most of the American public would respond favorably and somehow overcome the political divisions that exist today. And I'm a hurling, I'll let you respond, but I want to read some from your letter to yourself on 9-11. Most of all, remember the people. Remember the Navy officer who suddenly ends your telephone call, because something has happened inside the Pentagon. Remember the New York police officer who sees an army officer trying to get back to Washington and escorts you onto a closed bridge. Remember your wife sitting beside you as yours is the only car crossing the Arizona Narrows Bridge. Sometimes, look toward Manhattan. Don't ever forget what you saw. Think occasionally about the lives that might have lived, the children that might have raised, the things they might have built, written, taught, discovered or contributed to this country. In the years ahead, you will learn a great deal about a lot of things in your profession. But try not to miss the simpler lesson. America's greatest strength is not its ability to destroy an enemy.

27:46It is its ability to summon people to a common purpose, to learn from its mistakes, to sustain alliances built on trust, to substitute humility for swagger, and to persuade citizens that something larger than themselves is worth serving. Well, I'll first come in on Secretary Johnson's statement, and he's absolutely right. We had a president a long time ago when I was young, by the name of Kennedy, who asked people not to ask what their country could do for them, but what they could do for their country. And I think we need more of that. The other thing I'd come in on in terms of what Mike said, and what the secretary also said, was the fact that America, unfortunately, has a long history of treating its most recent immigrants the worst way possible. And I'm not just talking about some, I'm talking about all of them. And yet, those immigrants, the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, the blacks, the Hispanics, all turn out to be some of our strongest contributors to our nation.

28:53That's who we are. And that's who we should ask more of to get away from that fear factor that we were talking about earlier. Hi. To call a quick, I could add to that, naturalization ceremonies, probably my favorite thing to do when I was Secretary of DHS, and invariably, there'd be somebody in the audience, not yet a citizen, but who was wearing the uniform of this country. A member of the US military who was not a US citizen, and it was my honor to administer the oath to that person to become a US citizen. We had a young soldier in Iraq, Nicole, by the name of Quarergo, and he was a young private from Mexico. And on his off time, when he wasn't on patrol, working the streets of Baghdad, he was studying for a citizenship test. Unfortunately, he was killed in action, so we named a base after him in Baghdad.

29:54Shouldn't take the 25th anniversary of 9-11 to convene ourselves in this way, and I'll take responsibility for that as the host here right now. But to your first point about how disconnected we are, I mean, these are the things that, like this is our story, this is our shared story, this makes people, by and large, feel better about who we were just 25 years ago, who we became in the face of tragedy. Do you subscribe to a belief that we're one liter away from something better? Or do you think that the technology and the algorithms have moved us so far apart from that? That's beyond my pay grade to figure that out. But I would indicate my feeling on it is that we have to realize that we are no longer what we once were on September 11, 2001. We are no longer the same country. We've grown apart, unfortunately, not by choice,

30:55just because of the flow of things, especially the political flow of things. And it would be nice if we could have a president return to the Oval Office who would know the meaning of the word kindness, be kind to people, who knows the meaning of how to help people and what help people need. We don't have that right now. What we have is a country, unfortunately, that sits alone in the world. I mean, we're angry with Canada. Well, we're not. Yes. Yeah. The world seems to think very much differently about the United States than they did 10, 12, certainly 25 years ago. I want my America back again. I want the America that I grew up in. I want that back again. I grew up in a street filled with World War II veterans. I grew up in a gold star home. I know what service means.

31:56I want that sense back. I want that country back. That's what that country still is. It just has to be resurrected. My final thank you for being here. I think you were staying. And I've been on TV since the early hours of today. Thank you very much. And I hope you make your flight. We all hope you make your flight. Secretary Johnson, maybe you can make sure he does. Mr. Secretary, thank you for being here. Lieutenant General Margaret Ling, thank you for being here. Really an honor to have all of you here together on this day. I'm grateful to you all. When we come back, we'll make a turn. Donald Trump's loyal and conspiracy minded attorney, pal, Joe DeGeneres had one job to do for Donald Trump in the second term. To secure some indictments on behalf of his boss once he wants desperately. Well, he's loved that job. He's now at a work. We'll look at what was maybe a bridge too far, even for him. And what that means, quick break, we'll be right back. Money. The economic fallout from the war.

32:56Is it temporary power? Is this White House for sale? Politics. What is your message to the country right now? Money-powered politics with Stephanie Rule. We gaze at 9 a.m. Eastern on MS now. And find more on the MS now app. There are very few mile markers available to any of us for how low we have fallen. And in terms of Donald Trump's destruction of the rule of law in America. His progress at directing prosecutions against perceived enemies and pardoning political allies and political donors. Makes even some of the world's dictators blush a little bit. So when one of Trump's longest serving foot soldiers says hell no to a politically motivated investigation and prosecution around here, we take notice. As we first reported yesterday, Joe DeGeneres, who was handpicked to lead the Justice Department's so-called Grand Conspiracy case, that alleges a years-long plot or conspiracy by President Obama and President Biden and their aides and officials spanning from the 2016 Russian investigation through Donald Trump's federal indictment to undermine Trump's campaigns.

34:04That guy resigned from his post and made clashes with the Department of Justice in the White House over the pace of the probe. DeGeneres had vowed to bring indictments within 30 days when he took over the investigation back in April. Now DeGeneres told the New York Post this quote, if you want indictments for there's no evidence, you have an ethical problem. He later tried to claim to the AP that his comments were taken out of context and that quote, there's plenty of evidence in all of these cases to prove the theories of prosecution. It just takes time to get there and some people want to get there a little faster than others and you can't do that. I want to bring in former Department of Justice, partner, Attorney Liz Oyer. She's now host to the podcast, is this really legal? Also joining us, New York Times investigative journalist Mike Schmidt, Liz, the thing about Joe DeGeneres saying it didn't have enough time is they've literally been at this for 10 years and they've been investigating the investigators for a decade. In Trump's closest allies, including Marco Rubio, never found anything.

35:06Yeah, DeGeneres is not the first prosecutor to take a crack at this. There was a career prosecutor who was originally assigned to this investigation, a highly respected senior prosecutor in Miami who was looking at the case and leading it for the Trump administration. She was a trusted prosecutor, the one who led the case against the individual who tried to shoot Donald Trump at his golf course, so she's somebody who was trusted to handle significant cases. She came up with nothing. She told Todd Blanche's top deputies back in April that there was no basis to pursue charges. They removed her from the case and replaced her with Joe DeGeneres. I mean, basically Todd Blanche found the craziest person that he could find and this case proved to be too crazy even for him and he ended up quitting. So you'd think that this should be the end of this road, which has been going on for a decade now. It probably won't be Donald Trump will probably find someone else to come in and carry this torch forward. But I think it is very clear at this point that there is no there there and that this investigation should be shut down as an incredible waste of taxpayer resources, distraction for the Justice Department.

36:16Not to mention really intrusive on the rights of people who are being wrongly and basically investigated and prosecuted. I mean, the thing to remind people and I try to always put this in that setup is that this isn't about 2020. This isn't the election he tried to steal on the deadly insurrection he incited. These are grievances that date back to 2015 and 16 and the people ensnared in this so-called green conspiracy. I think Caroline Levitt laid it out most and the most detailed fashion from the White House briefing room. She describes a plot from President Obama that involves intelligence agents that involves the former head of the CIA, that involves others in what it's not even clear. I mean, do you have a sense of who and what other than director Brennan who's spoken out about it very publicly on this show of how many people this potentially touches? I think the number was over a dozen of the people who they believed did this.

37:16This is not going from the line FBI agents who were working on the investigation all the way through people in the Biden administration and people to Justice Department through the documents. The investigation and ultimate prosecution that started against Trump. What I find sort of remarkable here is that for DeGeneva, in doing this, you get to see something in Trump's world that you don't get to see every day and that's where the line is. So apparently the line for Joe DeGeneva is where the powers that be above him want criminal prosecutions that the evidence doesn't support. And you don't see folks stepping down in the Trump administration every day like that. But in this instance, it was too far for DeGeneva. To the point that was made earlier, DeGeneva is someone who wasn't even a normie in the first Trump administration. He was someone who was sort of kept on the outskirts.

38:16I think he did some personal legal work for Trump. But he wasn't someone that had a senior Justice Department official role was overseeing criminal prosecutions. But in this instance, in the second Trump term, he was someone who fit that mold and was willing to do that. He was willing to take on this case, a case, a matter that has been looked at time and time again by so many different inspectors, generals and federal prosecutors and such and never resulted in what Trump wanted. And it chose a larger issue that Trump has had, not just with this, but is using the criminal justice system against his enemies. While he was able to, he has an indictment down against Komi. They have not been able to prosecute in jail, Trump's rivals in the ways that they wanted in large part because they have run up against the courts. And in the retribution campaign, he's had some massive successes with the law firms and the universities, but on the criminal prosecution front, on the front of jailing his enemies, putting his enemies behind bars.

39:21He has struggled and this is the latest example of that. Thank God for that. Liz and Mike, we're going to ask you to stick around after the break where the federal government is now involved in an NBA scandal. We'll bring you the latest reporting and explain. That's next. A year ago, friend of this broadcast, Pablo Torrey on his podcast, Pablo Torrey finds out revealed his extensive investigative reporting involving the Los Angeles Clippers. The story in the reporting sent shock waves to the NBA. Torrey reported that the Clippers and owner Steve Balmer allegedly circumvented the NBA's strict salary cap. And they did that in order to compensate superstar player, Kuala Leonard, more than they were allowed to do. It's Pablo Torrey's work earned him this year's Pulitzer Prize for audio reporting, but also led the NBA to open an investigation into the Clippers.

40:22And that investigation concluded last week with the LA team being issued with what is described as one of the harshest penalties in leak history. It includes a $30 million fine for the owner, Steve Balmer, suspensions for him and other executives, along with revoking five future first round draft picks. But it could just be the tip of the iceberg in terms of the team's headaches and problems. The New York Times is today reporting that the scandal has caught the attention of the Department of Justice. Quote, federal prosecutors have opened a criminal investigation into allegations that the Los Angeles Clippers helped arrange secret sponsorship contracts for the star player, Kuala Leonard, that circumvented the salary cap according to people briefed on the matter. The investigation is in its earliest stages and is being conducted by the US Attorney's Office in Brooklyn, which has a long history of investigating the NBA and professional sports, according to two of the people. Steve Balmer and the Clippers have steadfastly denied any wrongdoing and released this statement after the NBA released its findings and punishments.

41:22Quote, we vehemly reject the NBA's findings, which are the result of a heavily biased investigation, seeking to justify a predetermined narrative rather than facts and evidence. Liz and Mike, Mike is the one whose byline is on that new piece of New York Times reporting we just read from Mike, what's going on and what is to you, the DOJ role in this at this point? Look, the Justice Department often wants to look into high profile matters in which there may be some potential wrongdoing. That is something that happens in a lot of different instances, as we know, a lot of times that doesn't lead to charges or anything. The only thing I would say that's different here is the era that we're in and the moment that we're in with the Trump Justice Department. The Trump will look for leverage in any form over anyone and to have an investigation into the NBA, it just gives him a piece of leverage.

42:24This has shown itself time and time again, dating back to the first days of the administration where he was able to use the criminal prosecution of Eric Adams as a way of getting Eric Adams to do what he wanted. And we've seen that come up time and time again as the department has made political decisions about prosecutions. I have no sense that Trump knows anything about this investigation. But what we have seen is that if you are a white collar defenceler in this country and you're dealing with the Justice Department and the front of your mind is, well, what does Trump think about this? Is Trump going to stand in our way? Is Trump going to help us? Because that is the easiest pathway to getting out of trouble when confronted with an investigation or an indictment. Because that's what Trump has done with his presidency. This is sort of the collision of two of these never before normal, but in the time of Trump new normals. There's always a question hanging over everything DOJ does because Trump has grabbed this steering wheel and taught Blanche his hand in it to him and handed him his driving gloves.

43:28And the other piece is that the war against the press and journalists from elites. I think Mark Cuban piled on, he's since apologized. The Polo Tories reporting was attacked and criticized and not least part of it is seemingly corroborated with the existence of a DOJ investigation. Yeah, public Torrey did incredible reporting in this case. And then his work was corroborated by the law firm, Walk Tell Lipton, which is one of the most elite, most expensive law firms in the entire nation. And then he was arrested by the NBA to conduct this rigorous investigation, which proved what public Torrey had uncovered in his investigation. And so there's a lot of evidence that's already laid out, which makes this in some sense an attractive case for the Justice Department. Because it's an organization that is incredibly stretched right now with staffing shortages and demands for political prosecutions from the president. In the case where all this evidence and all these facts are already laid out, maybe very attractive and possibly a way to get headlines about something other than Donald Trump's personal vendetta's.

44:34But I agree completely with what Mike said that this is going to rise or fall with Donald Trump's whims. Undoubtedly he has some preformed opinions about the team, about the owner of the team, about the player who's involved and all of that will factor in. And I think Donald Trump loves the idea that he has this leverage as Mike said that he can wield, he can dangle the possibility of pardons. And I'm sure that lots of people are thinking about trying to get in his good graces to have that option. If this does become a criminal investigation, there's that escape hatch of the pardon power, which Donald Trump wields very effectively to get people to scramble to please him in any way that they can. It's just extraordinary, extraordinary new lens through which to look at all these stories. Mike Schmidt, thank you so much for joining us in your reporting. Liz sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, the grift goes on and on and on in the Trump White House, the latest government employee who is cashing in big time. We'll have that story with the next hour of Deadlin White House, star sector quick break.

45:43Deadlin White House and the Rachel Maddo Show. Every small, deep democratic muscle that we have is flexing. Plus the last word with Laurence O'Donnell, the beat with Ari Melber, The Weeknight, and more. On the go, wherever you get your podcasts, for ad free listening to all of your favorite shows, subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts.