Legally Brunette: Do You Really Know Your Neighbors?

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2:01mini-series from KQED wherever you get your podcasts Wait! I came in for two things How is this $47? Alright, we're gonna need a plan here Just start simple with Bank of America Advantage Safe Balance Banking No overdraft item fees No monthly maintenance fee if you're under 25 Plus, as a new checking customer you can earn $100 when you open an account and make qualifying Zeller debit transactions Oh, that's actually really simple Safe Balance Banking One less thing to figure out Learn more at BFA.com slash earn100 Terms and conditions applied Bank of America and A member of FDIC Hi guys, welcome to Legally Brunette I'll be your host today Emily Simpson and... Shane Shane, okay, let's get into this case First of all, Caroline Hereling How to give for identifying vulnerability She knew that the recently deceased could not speak for themselves and that the lonely and isolated rarely had anyone checking in on them What began as a calculated

3:02scheme to exploit the dead and the forgotten would spiral into something far darker A web of forged documents stolen identities and vanishing assets worth millions By the time authorities began pulling the threads of this case apart what they found wasn't just financial crime It was something that would haunt the investigators, the victims families, and the quiet suburban streets where it all unfolded Okay, this takes place in Los Angeles and actually I watched this because I was watching Netflix and there was a new series out called The Worst Neighbor Ever or something like that and I think there were four episodes. This episode was called The Executor and I started watching it It seemed, I don't know, like, it's going towards true crime, something is going to happen. It was so bizarre and so weird and so disgusting that I was just like, I was like, we have to talk about this.

4:02Okay, so let's go through it a little bit of background. So first we're going to start out with Charles Wilding. He was an older man. He lived alone in LA and he spent his entire life in his family home on Kingswood Road. This is in Sherman Oaks, California. After his mother, June, who was an elementary school teacher who lived to be 90, passed away in June of 2017, Charles was then living alone. He never married. He had no children and he became increasingly isolated. Neighbors described him as shy and reclusive and his property began to deteriorate. All right, now we have Caroline. Caroline enters the picture. Caroline Joanne Hereling. She also goes by the name of Carrie Phoenix, lived in the Los Angeles area. People who knew her socially initially described her as friendly, cheerful, and outwardly normal. But investigators eventually discovered that she ran a fraud operation that specifically

5:02targeted vulnerable homeowners. You know, when they start this out, they're interviewing, like, I guess everyone kind of lived together in this apartment complex in LA. Okay. And I think it was nice and well, and it was like some younger families and they interviewed some of her neighbors. And they're, you know, women in their, I don't know, looks like 30s. And she just comes off as like this very normal, average, cute, female that lives in one of these, you know, apartments. She and her associates would search affluent neighborhoods for neglected properties. She would look for things like overgrown landscaping, dirty pools, un-maintained homes, believing that these were signs of elderly or isolated owners. And then Caroline used online mapping tools and drove through neighborhoods personally scouting targets. So she's coming up with this financial scheme, right? Yeah. Where she's looking for abandoned properties that are deteriorating, that look like someone possibly could still live

6:04there, or they might be a band-in. So from the beginning, she's planning a scam? Yes. Okay. This is how... It's not a good business gone bad. No, this is just... This is how she operates. Outwardly, she presents herself as like this very nice, young, cute, put together lady, friendly, outgoing. But behind the scenes, she's creating this whole financial scheme of where she's finding these abandoned properties. Is this going to be a financial crime-turned-violence? No. Well, you just have to wait and see. Okay. All right. So we get to the summer of 2020. And Caroline has an associate named Matthew Jason Croft. His name is Jason, or he goes by Speedy. Okay. Do we learn why he goes by Speedy? Well, they all end up not only are they perpetuate these financial crimes, but they also sell meth. So I assume Speedy has something to do with that, maybe. Okay.

7:04So Speedy and Caroline are romantically involved, and they become... He becomes a co-conspirator. So this guy, Speedy, notices that Charles' property is neglected. So he breaks in. So this is the first time he breaks in to the property. So they just... So they just roam around looking for abandoned properties that they could break into and probably wouldn't be alarmed. Well, I think they... So the police are anything right away. Right. Or not only do they break in, but I think they also find these abandoned properties, which would mean, like I said before, like an elderly person might live there because they can't take care of it. They can't maintain it. They're looking for a low-hanging fruit with property crimes. Right. Exactly. All right. So when Speedy breaks into this property the first time, he finds Charles still alive inside. And then he claims, because they run into each other, he breaks into his house. He's inside his home. And he claims that he was just there conducting a welfare check and left. Wait, does he ever really ship with Charles?

8:04No. He just sees the property. So he just likes to do welfare checks when the homes look abandoned? Well, that's what he said. He was clearly breaking in. He points into a property to do a welfare check. Well, that's not the reason he broke into the property. I know, but that's his story. That's his story. Yeah. Well, that's the best he could come up with off the top of his head. He clearly did not expect to run into this hand inside his home. And more believable if he said I had to call the police or I had to use the restroom or there was an emergency. I had to, OK. Rather than like I was concerned for this unknown citizen with the lights off. I know I always wonder because I don't know beyond that. But I wonder if Charles found this if he believed, or if he believed the story or did he call the police? I guess not. Wait, is Charles dead? Is that how we don't know? How he feels? Yes. Charles, OK. So then this is the first time he breaks in. He runs into Charles. He tells him he's doing a welfare check. I don't know. I'm just going to assume that Charles buys it and doesn't say anything. He later said, OK, can you please repair my window now? Yes. Is that what it is?

9:04Yeah. He later returns. But this time when he breaks in, he finds Charles dead. So actually when he returns, I'm sure he was pleasantly surprised to find Charles dead. And Charles died alone. Like no one knows he's dead. I don't know how long he's been dead. But he's been dead. And he's in the house. OK. And they find him. All right. Rather than reporting the death, speedy. Well, yeah, of course he's not going to report. Right. Why would he report the death? I mean, why would he? He was there for a welfare check the first time. So he dies dead. Yes. So he steals jewelry. He steals his mail. And he steals Charles personal identifying information, passing all this information along to Caroline and her associates. All right. Investigators believe that Charles died somewhere around September of 2020. And his body was never recovered, making it impossible to determine whether his death was natural, accidental, or the result of foul play. OK. Now I got a question.

10:04Yeah. I got a question. I got a question. I got a question. I got a question. I got a question. Like what do you call it? Speedy's account. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Speedy's honest now. He's saying I broke in once. Only that is a concern citizen. And he was fine. Had not heard from him for a few weeks. So I returned. And he was dead. And I figured there was nothing I could do. So I disposed of his body and took all his valuables. Well, we don't know what he did with the body yet. We're going to get there. But at the time, he returns. He does steal valuables. And he steals personal identifying documents. My question was when I was watching this because I feel like they just kind of glossed over it. But I thought, how do we know that Charles died of natural causes? How do we know that speedy just didn't return and think, God, this guy is still alive and then murder him. But we don't know. And I'll tell you later why we don't know. So Caroline and speedy now realize that with him being dead, that's an asset to them. No one having reported it because he's still in the house alone with no one else living

11:06there. They're like, what can we do with this information? Right. So they know that they can keep him legally alive on paper. My question is though, how do they know? I mean, if they just find him dead. Well, they get assumption. Yeah. I mean, if he'd been there a while, like, let's assume that speedy finds him when he comes back the second time. And he finds him dead in a chair or something. And I guess if it looks and smells as if he's just been there for a while, then I guess you can reasonably conclude that he... They're correct. They'll take chances. It's not like it's a calculated risk where they got to go through and research this guy. They're like, hey, no one's here. Clearly no one else is doing well for a checks but us. So then they decided, let's still decide to go do something. In fall of 2020, Caroline began appearing at Charles' home telling neighbors that she was managing his affairs. Meanwhile, his body was still dead inside the house. Yeah, it wasn't going to come back to life. No, but I'm just saying he's dead in the house. Nobody knows he's dead in the house except for these criminals that didn't kill him.

12:11That allegedly did not kill him. And now Caroline is showing up at the house. And when neighbors see her at his house, she's just saying that she's there to help him out and to take care of them. All right. I'm just preserving his body. So keeping him alive on paper. Caroline created fraudulent documents to give the take over some legitimacy. So she had, she actually, and this is interesting because I read about this later because they don't relate to tell you that much in this, you know, in this episode, but it was a sophisticated scheme. Okay. I mean, she had, like, she had a machine that made documents look old. I'd never heard of that before. But so she had the whole setup because she created a fake power of attorney that gave herself power of attorney over his estate and his affairs. And so it didn't look like she printed it right there and signed it. This looked like it was 10, 20 years old. Right. So she had some type of machine that made documents look old. She also created, fabricated a wilding family trust naming herself as the trustee.

13:16And these documents gave her apparent legal authority over Charles property and his finances in his estate. Well, apparent legal authority. So with all these newfound documents, all these created documents by her to look like she has control over his finances. What's she going to do with it? Does he have money? Yeah. I think that he came from a wealthy family. As mom died when she was 90. I don't think he had any siblings or children of his own. So how are they going to access the money, though? Well, I do believe that the house that he was living in, even though it's probably run down a little bit, we're talking about a house in Sherman Oaks. I think the house is worth a lot of money, too. So she has the house in a trust and she names herself as a trustee. I don't think this is like a quick, I think this is a complicated scheme where overall what she's trying to do is take ownership of the property and then end up selling the property and then getting millions of dollars from the property. It's not like a quick, she's trying to get his, you know, pension. Well, I'm sure they'll take all they can. So roughly three months without seeing Charles, a neighbor called the LAPD.

14:16So then he, this is a real welfare check. This is an actual neighbor who says, Hey, I haven't seen this guy. And it smells kind of funny. Yeah, in a long time, officers arrive at Charles house to do a welfare check and they found Caroline there instead. So they don't find him. They find Caroline. She tells them that Charles is alive and temporarily staying with friends in Carpentaria, California. She also claims that his home had black mold and that she was cleaning it up as trustee. That's a good one. Yeah, she's smart, right? Yeah, quick. Police tried calling the number she provided for Charles. So she even, like I saw, she got him a burner phone. Yeah, she has, there's a video. She's creating the email address for her own and everything. Yeah, I've, I've went in the police comment. I'm telling you, she comes off just like a normal woman that's just a caretaker or like she could be a realtor. And she's, you know, always not here. You know, there was black mold. I'm just taking care of amazing older guy, you know, like she has a, like she doesn't

15:17look like she's a method. I didn't care anything. No, or that she's making false documents in a back room and like making documents look old and fabricating things. No, I'm curious to see where we go with this one. All right. So please call the number because you know, when you list a home for sale in California, you have to disclose if there's been any dust inside the house within the last five years. Right. I want to know if she checked that box or not. I don't think we get that far. Okay. Not in this one. All right. So she gives the police a number and says this is Charles's number. I mean, I have to give her credit for being pretty quick. She doesn't know the police are going to show up, right, when she's at his residence. And she comes up with a story about black mold and he's visiting someone else and she gives him a phone number. Police tried calling the number. She provided for Charles. No one answered. Thank goodness. What number did she come up with off the top of her head? I might have enough. Maybe it was speedy. Maybe it was speedy. And then she's texting speedy like Tony answer. Yeah. Well, she probably wouldn't have to tell speedy not to answer.

16:18Probably anytime a phone call comes in from the LEP. Yeah. Speedy doesn't answer. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably true. A neighbor's also told police that they were worried about the investigation stalled. Adult protective services also looked into Charles welfare. A case worker reportedly believed that they spoke with Charles by phone. So the case. So the case protective services. Yeah. So the child protective services and adult protective services. Yeah. So what they did was they called the number that she had given them. And then they didn't get an answer at first. But when they continued to call, she ended up getting someone a male, a man to answer on the other end and say that he was Charles and that he was, you know, fine. This black mold in my house is a gun yet. Everything is fine. Don't worry. See that lady. So that cooled off the police then for a little. Yeah. Okay. All right. Then we get to 2021 and Caroline's expanding her fraud. A Caroline continued presenting herself as Charles legitimate representative using forged

17:19documents. The conspirators began taking control of his assets tied to Charles and his family. They also targeted a second victim named Robert Tasson, Tasscon, who was an casino homeowner who was away from his property. So I guess again, they're doing that same scheme. They found a house that looked abandoned. That probably wasn't very well taken care of. This homeowner's gone. He's alive, but he's just not physically at the home. And they began creating this like a neighbor. No, it's just a second victim. Oh, it's just they got a referral. I guess. Do I think they have any friends? Yeah. They put an ad out on Craigslist. Like do you know anyone with an older home that looks like it's dilapidated a little with a dead body inside? We do a fair check. Call us. So this is a second property. And this guy's name's Robert. There's no connection other than she's just finding homes where older people are gone or dead or you know incapacitated in some way. It's like home alone. And they just go where they would the wet band is just one around.

18:21They just like kind of observe people's patterns and see when they're coming and going and if they're on vacation. I feel like this is slightly more sophisticated than the wet band is. But I do see a little you know comparison there using fraudulent identification and forged documents and imposter posed as Robert. This is the other guy. This is the second house. They sold his home for approximately 1.5 million without his knowledge. A $950,000 wire transfer connected to the sale later became a critical investigative clue. So they actually created documents that they owned this home and then they sold it. While this guy is just I don't know he's probably like traveling Europe or something. And he comes home as a house is gone. And the buyer is a legitimate buyer. Right. The buyer is a legitimate buyer who pays the 1.5 million for this house. The scheme grew further when a forged will purportedly belonging to a woman named Jackie Shields Lowenstein surfaced naming Charles as executor and beneficiary of an estate

19:23worth more than 1.7 million investigators determined that the will was also a forgery. So this is a complex scheme. I mean they're forging documents left and right. Because Caroline controlled Charles's supposed affairs any assets flowing to him could ultimately flow to her. So they received 1.5 million bucks. Not from not from Charles state. I know from the second home from Roberts's right. Yes. I don't have a million bucks. Yeah. Well, it wasn't his. Oh yeah. And then what so they sold it before they sold Charles. Well Charles is dead and he's in the house. So I feel like he's complicating their life a little bit. Well, I guess they could use it as a headquarters. Yes. Open it. Yeah, for the rest of us. They just put like a sheet over him. Just work around him. He's the mascot for their company. Yeah. Well, Robert wasn't physically in his home. So I feel like that was easier. They just created the diagram. They're using the home for shelter probably. Well, they she still lives in that apartment where the other woman were talking about

20:25her that they interview because they talked about how when they first met her, she was pretty normal and friendly and nice. And then as time went on, but you think they'd sell Chuck's house first. No, because there's a dead body in there. I think they're rid of it. It's in a shallow grave somewhere. That's my prediction. Okay, but we're in LA and this is Sherman Oaks. I don't know if you can just remove a dead body without people noticing. It happens all the time. We cover these cases all the time and you always say, how did they do that? No, well, I talk about like Kristen Smart's body at slow and like how did he get it out of his dorm room? Well, I don't believe the body's in the house right now because the police would have seen it. So when the police come and investigate and they're doing a welfare check, they actually do go inside the house. Okay. But they don't see, I don't know. They must have just moved Charles and just maybe like pushed him to the side or in a corner. They're literally like near his body inside the house, but they don't see him. And I don't know how they don't smell like dead body smell. Yeah. And police would know that they would know that they've had experiences. Right. So I don't know why they didn't know there was a dead body in there.

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25:42people were concealing his death in order to exploit his identity. Detective O'Donnell pulled the December 2020 welfare check and began looking closely at Caroline. He contacted her and asked to speak with Charles directly. A man claiming to be Charles eventually reached out to authorities, but Caroline could never produce him in person. Every contact number and story she provided led nowhere. I remember this part. He was staying on her pretty adamantly. And he was to finally be like, well, where is he? To see him in person, right? Bring him to me in person. Where can I meet him? And she came up with story after story after story. And could never physically in person, obviously, produce him. So in March of 2022, Caroline moved into a home in the West Hills neighborhood of Los Angeles after being evicted from her Beverly Glen apartment for nonpayment of rent. I don't know why she can't pay her rent. I need a bunch of money. She sold Robert's house for 1.5 million.

26:43When she was living in the Beverly Glen apartment, they, this is where they did these interviews with other people that lived in this apartment complex who said when they first met her that she was just like this kind, nice lady that lived in the Beverly Glen apartments. And then over time, they kept hearing like raging music at night and like pounding and like weird things were going on. Then she gets evicted. She told her new neighbors that she was running a sober living home there, but neighbors noticed suspicious behavior. So she moves into a new place and says that it's a sober living home. Managed by speedy. Yes. Okay. The neighbors actually became key sources for detective O'Donnell documenting unfamiliar vehicles, visitors and communications from Caroline. Investigators examined documents tied to Charles and found widespread forgery across trust documents, powers of attorney, estate paperwork and identification materials. The missing person case had evolved into a potential homicide combined with elder exploitation, identity theft and real estate fraud.

27:46So then in June of 2022, this is detective O'Donnell. He brought in the US Postal Inspector, Lyndon Versosa, a financial crime specialist. Do they arrive in a mail truck? No, it's a federal FBI. No, they issue them. They don't issue them. Postal trucks. Do they issue them weapons if you're like part of the FBI, but you're just you deal in like postal fraud? I think so. I think so. So even though you're like the federal postal inspector, you still get like you still get the bulletproof vest. And I don't know if they choose to wear, but yeah, well, if you're a field, if you're a field, postal service enforcer, I don't know what they called, what are they called? Well, this is called the US Postal Inspector, Lyndon Versosa, and he's a financial crime specialist. Well, they had to bring in a financial crime specialist to understand where it was complex. I mean, she has a complex system going with all these forgery and trusts and documents. So someone to actually be able to follow the money. So I think a blood splatter specialized to figure out the fraudulent documents.

28:50Thank you. Okay. Glad you cleared that up for the last. Thank you. Yeah. I'm glad you cleared that up. Thank you. Following Caroline's money investigator zeroed in on a massive wire transfer connected to this was Robert, the other guy, the fraudulent sale of his home, confirming that the operation was far broader than just one man's estate. So now they realize that this is not just like they took advantage of just this poor Charles guy that she, this is like an ongoing financial crime. Investigators uncovered evidence of active impersonation. So a process server attempting to serve Charles over unpaid credit card tets. I mean, the man's dead. He can't pay his credit cards now. No, but they're keeping them alive. They should be paying his bills. So he gets flagged. You know, it's interesting that, well, do we, do we know if they killed Charles? We never know. But do we believe that he killed Charles? I don't know. I think maybe Charles was legitimately just died in the house. Because if they found him deceased, you know, they're like, that's not what they want.

29:53They just want to like people on vacation. So I have like second homes like they were trying to get into non violent crimes, probably just financial crimes. Well, no, I don't know because we're going to go on and there's a lot more. No, okay. All right, keep going. A process server attempting to serve Charles over unpaid credit card debts reported serving a man claiming to be Charles. He was found lying in bed in an address connected to Caroline. I don't know. I assume maybe that's speedy. I don't know. A woman they identified herself as Charles daughter, but Charles has no children. And then the conspirators had effectively, they're just trying to do everything possible to make it that Charles is alive. I'm his daughter. The conspirators had effectively created a living functional version of Charles to keep the fraud running as law enforcement. Well, again, why are they keeping him alive? I think because a million and a half bucks does other home, they just move on to another home and another home. Why are they why are they dealing with a dead body? Because I think what one their drug addicts. So I don't know if there's a lot of I mean, she's pretty savvy as far as the financial

30:58crimes. I mean, she thinks she's but they're also methamphetamine users. So but while she's running a sober living home. Wow, she's not right. She's not really a sober living home. But I do but I believe that sober living home was probably another scheme because you probably get money from the state if you have a sober living home, right? If you if you have a property and you claim it's a sober living home, if she went that far unless she was the saying it just to excuse why they're rowdy and stuff like, hey, like don't look this way. I'm trying to take a difficulty with their withdrawals. Yeah. So as law enforcement pressure mounted, Charles remains becomes a liability. I mean, it's getting difficult, right? She's still dead in the house. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Financial light responsibilities. Right. He's got to pay his credit card debt. Yeah. And there is caretaker. So they better get it done. Right. If discovered the timeline of his death would expose the fact that documents and transactions authorized by him happened after he was already dead. That is a problem on a timeline. Yeah. You can't have signatures after his death. It's very difficult to explain that one in court.

32:00Exactly. Prosecutors say Caroline and her associates moved and ultimately disposed of his remain. They had to remove the body from the house. So she moves his body, I'm sure, with help to her apartment and Beverly Glen. To the sober living housing? No. This is the apartment she got evicted from before she moved to the sober living house. Okay. So she takes Charles's body, they move it to her Beverly Glen. So Charles moves in with her. Yeah. Charles lives with her now in her Beverly Glen apartment. But they have to get rid of the body. So she actually dismembers the body. This is again where I get freaked out when people dismember bodies. I don't understand how you do that. I can't even think of if I broke a bone and a bone stuck through how disgusting and atrocious that would be. So how people dismember bodies makes no sense to me. She also had to drain the blood. Is this why you haven't killed anyone yet? Yeah, I can't. I just can't. I could go through. You'd kill a lot of people except for the fact that it grossed you out.

33:00Yeah. That's just so gross. So she ends up dismembering him. And they put his, and they also drains the blood and then also it causes. I did that with the cow. What? You and your stories. Well, when I was in Cape Ver, there was a cow. Okay. And a family had and they had a date that they were going to kill the cow to picture it. That's cute, yeah, but they, they, this fed families and this is a big deal. And the cow was hungry. So it was better off that they put it, it pressed me. But they put it dead. Yeah, this world, this the world, this cow was, anyway, I learned that you had to kill that you have to drain the blood. And that's what they did. They slit the throat and then they pushed the belly and they, you have to drain all the blood. Okay. Well, they have to, so they have to drain the blood out of Charles. Right. So that's the tough one point. And then they use, I believe, as a blood at this point, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe then they use acid to try to like, because they, they're trying to just get rid of the body. So they, they bury it in the shallow, like every other criminal.

34:02No, because they're on meth. So they're like, we have to take them to the Beverly Glen apartment. We have to dismember him. Then we have to put acid on him to try to disintegrate his body. And then they dump like all his, like skin and organ juice into a garden and, and Beverly Glen. What? I know. This sounds like it would have been easier just to dump the body in a dumpster. No, they do all these things to this body. Chopping it up, they put all his different body parts in bags. And then they drive to Northern California and dispose of him in the San Francisco Bay. And then all the Charles, the first place they could come up with. I guess. And then the Charles, like juice that's left over, they like pour out and dump into the garden at the Beverly Glen apartments. Oh, that's the garden just like florals arranged. But I believe that. But I believe that. Like fruit and stuff. I don't know. I don't know. But the neighbors, but the neighbors that lived in this Beverly Glen apartment report that like there was all kinds of like loud banging and noise going on.

35:03I assume that's when she was dismembering the body. Wait, again, how do we know all this? Is this from speedy? His testimony? She actually later once they arrest her and they interrogate her. Oh, yeah, she spills the beans. She spills the beans. Yeah. So this is how they, they learn later what she did with the body. Did they refer to it as Charles juicer? Is that just you? That was me. I just, yeah, that was me. The cuters noted that Caroline also rented a high performance car for the trip, took photos on the boat and then flew back to Southern California by private plane. Oh, my is going to make an experience. I mean, why not? Yeah. Charles remains have never been found. I mean, if I was going to dispose of a body up in San Francisco, I would definitely. So they were never found why she have to confess all that. When they bring her in and start interrogating her, she's just, it's like word vomit. She just tells them everything. They probably did the little mind trick, you know, the police mind trick. Like, were your friends? Just tell us what you did. It'll be okay. You're not a bad person.

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40:08The story of 2023, the case starts to come together. Federal search warrants were executed at locations tied to Caroline Herling, including her West Hills home, which was purchased with illicit proceeds. Investigators recovered stolen and counterfeit identification documents, social security information, burst certificates, passports, signature reproduction equipment. I'm telling you, this is like a savvy, savvy, you know. This is not your Walmart murder kit. No, this is your Nordstrom murder kit. Yeah, your skateboards murder kit. Fake law enforcement credentials, financial documents tied to wilding. This is Charles estate, contraband, and like 16 firearms. No meth? Oh, and I believe there was meth too. Yeah, there was meth found and like meth baggies, because I think she also gets like possession charges or intent to distribute. Yeah, a speedy was also questioned and cooperated, confirming how Charles was targeted.

41:09He had spotted, he tells them that he had spotted the neglect of property, entered while Charles was still alive, returned then to find him dead, and then chose exploitation over reporting the death to the police. Caroline was taken into federal custody in January of 2023, and prosecutors described her as the architect behind everything who transformed speedy's opportunistic discovery into a very sophisticated financial conspiracy. I know, that guy probably just wanted to like grab his wallet. Yeah, the speedy. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. This is what we do. Yeah, forget these, what are they document producing aging machines and signature reproduction. Right. And yeah. And we're going to hide the body for a while. We're going to pretend that Charles is still alive. We're moving with Charles. Yeah. And then when they, then when people are onto us, we're just going to dismember him. And then get a, see that garden over there? Yeah. That's where we've dumped the juices. And then we're going to get a Ferrari. And we're going to drive up to the bay.

42:09This guy's like mine was much simpler. I just wanted to grab his wallet and get a hit for the night. Right. All right. Then we get to, she pleads guilty and the sentencing. So she doesn't go to trial. So in March of 2023, Caroline, I wonder if people like that, like after she tells everything. Yeah. And then she finds out they don't have the body. She's like, wait a minute, you don't have the body? Yeah. You said you knew everything. You just wanted to hear it from me. Yeah. And now it is told you everything. And you tell me there's nobody. Not so smart as she. Well, she was smart on one end. I mean, she produced some pretty legitimate. That should have been a real estate agent. Financial documents. Yeah. But you know what? You always talk about this before. It was just as much work for her to be fraudulent. As it was to get a job. As it was to just get a real job. There's a lot of people that work really hard to not work. Right. And it seems easier to go work. She seems like she's highly intelligent. Considering her scam. She came up with an all. I mean, I wouldn't know how to create trust documents and wills and get where would you even buy a forgery?

43:12If you went to law school, it stuff doesn't mean you'd figure that stuff out. Yeah, I know. I can't figure it out. Stuff like that. But I'm saying, where would you buy a forgery or a forgery reproduction printing machine? Like where do you get document aging machines? Well, you can Google it. I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult. But you can't get it on like Amazon. I mean, because these machines were clearly made to produce false Yeah, documents and I the ones are made to kill people. They still sell them. All right. Not illegal to sell the stuff. Still looking at how to use it that way. All right. So in March of 2023, Caroline Herling pleads guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. Speedy pleads guilty to conspiracy to commit wire fraud and a separate drug trafficking offense. Then in March of 2024, Caroline ascends to 20 years in federal prison. Dang. The statutory maximum. Where were there was wait, I'm sorry if I missed it. Were there ever a felony of murder?

44:13No, they weren't just just handling the body. Yeah, but I did read that she did get such a maximum sentence because they used the dismember like the body what she did with the body as an aggravating factor to make the sentence longer. Because I mean, she's only she only pleads guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. But she gets 20 years in prison. So they used all those stuff that she did with the dismembering and the body and all that stuff as an aggravating factor on that. You know, I think and honestly, who knows maybe Speedy entered the second time and did murder him. I guess you have no body. And so to try to prove that there was anything. I mean, there's no way to be able to prove it at that point. They got away with hitting right on the body. Wow. She got 20 years. Yeah. So she sends to 20 years in federal prison, which is the statutory maximum and ordered to pay 3.8 million in restitution. The judge emphasized that Caroline treated Charles as a financial resource

45:13rather than a human being. Well, in February 5th of 2026. So this was pretty recently. Speedy ascends to 16 years and eight months in federal prison in order to pay 1.9 million in restitution. The court noted that he was the person who first identified Charles as a target and he was the one who kicked the whole thing off. A Charles wildings remains have never been recovered. His cause of death remains unknown and Caroline Hereling is currently serving 20 years and Speedy is serving nearly 17. The total losses from the conspiracy they put together was about 3.8 million. And my question is I know they're ordered to pay restitution, but you're talking about methodics and criminals. I mean, do you think she has a bank account somewhere with the money? No, the only way she knew how to make money, they took away from her. Like she can't commit that crime anymore. Right. So it's like, I mean, she's going to spend 20 years in prison, but I mean, no estates ever going to see that money back. Well, be so put in an air, what if they win the lottery or something

46:13or inherit some money or something? That's true. So, wow. Interesting. Do you have any final thoughts on Caroline and Speedy? I wonder if like, is she's manipulative? I wonder if she can do anything and like with her cell mate and stuff in prison. Yeah. You mean she has like a whole scheme going on like this financial scheme. She's making documents in her cell. Right. Yeah, she's like, look officer. See, I'm getting released today. Yeah. The documents are right here. You can tell see their age. Yeah. Look, the warden signed it. Yeah. Here's his signature. Right. Wow. I have to go attend my garden. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Does body juice act as a fertilizer? Sure. I mean, cause you use like manure and things as a fertilizer. So like do dead bodies act as a fertilizer. Yeah. So maybe that garden's like really kicking off. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much for listening to legally brunettes. Please wherever you listen to a podcast, make sure you follow our legally brunette feed. Also, be sure to tell your friends and family.

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