Laverne Cox Sits Down For An Unfiltered Interview

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1:01That's h-i-m-s dot com slash Don Leman. Hems dot com slash Don Leman. Weight loss by hymns is not available in all 50 states. Wigovie is the registered trademark of NOVO Nordic AS to get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wigovie clinical study information, and restrictions visit hymns.com. MUSIC Le Verne, welcome to my interview, Seth. How are you? I am fabulous. I love this so much, and I'm so happy for you and proud of you. And, um, fuck yeah. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm so glad that you're here. You came to the right place if you want to learn some stuff. I'm learning stuff. All the technical shit that I don't know how to do. I'm learning how to do it. And, like, crazy technical stuff.

2:01What do you want to do in this transition period? They're trans. You've already made a transition, but a different type. Yes, I had my gender transition many years ago. If you're so, like, whatever. It's so weird. I'm trying to make a big deal about trans. You're going to be my friend. You remember I tried to set you up as one of my friends. We were at the Soho House, and he was like, oh my god, who's that? Did you, like, I remember you mentioned it, but, like, was he actually interested? Yeah, he was. What happened? I don't know. I don't think he heard from you. I don't remember what happened. Wait, but you put it in touch. I don't remember that. I texted you. We'll have to go back and look at the text chain if it's not. Yeah, it will. You always work around human. And I've been single for two years. I am ready to, like, dip my toe in the water. Yeah. I've been, I have been single for two years. OK. I don't know why I'm whispering that. Everybody knows. But like, I've never, like, it just kind of happened, like, all of a sudden, like a year, and I was like, I've been at sex. Yeah. True. I'm not saying, I don't want to have sex.

3:02It's bizarre. We'll get to the dating thing. Yeah. But I do want to know, like, if you made this kind of transition, you think that's a different type, but this should be from not, obviously, not quite as difficult, right? Because that's a real thing. For you as a journalist, from CNN, journalist to independent media, and for me, it would be, sort of creating some kind of internet content that's being independent from the multinational corporations, the Netflix, Amazon's, NBC, Universal CBS, Apple. I mean, it's kind of, it's something like comforting about the corporate thing, but then this also is something that like, what I watch YouTube more than I watch anything else. And we're not alone. And there's something so, there is the pair of social thing, like I watch you, and I actually I'll read, I've known each other for years. But you do feel like you start knowing people.

4:04And I think there's something about that in this moment that I know my fans don't have for me. And I want to give them that, but like, I'm like, it's like, how do I do? I feel like awkward as talking to the camera sometimes. But at least, because you're an actress, right? So, look, remember, Orange is a new black. Like, that wasn't you, I'll gland up, right? That was you as being an actor. It was a character, I love being, I prefer being a character to being myself. So as I said to you, when you came in, like, I believe in authenticity for this whole thing, and if you being gland, if that's your authentic self, then you should do that. It's fun. Yeah, it's fun. But if it's you chilling out, driving out to my house, and you know, in your sweats or whatever, or your lounge wear, then you should do that. Or you can do all of the above. I do, but I do all of it. I mean, for me, I think the problem, the problem, or the challenge, it's better frame. The challenge for me is that I love a hoodie, and I love couture.

5:09I love glam. I love the face, right? Deja Smith and hair by D. Traini Bear. And I love no makeup. Like I love it. I love all of it. So I do that. That, yeah, and that's been, I've been doing all of it. But I think in terms of branding, it gets confusing for the audience. I think that this is my over intellectualizing perhaps over thinking it. I think that's right. I think that's right. What would you have any idea about what you would do or want to do? Is it something daily? Is it something weekly? Is it something monthly? Or what daily is a lot? What I have found when I think- Actually not that much. I'll tell you how. But go on. What I have found that has been most, so there is the acting piece. I could do skits and we're developing a solo show so we could start putting those characters online. That would be one YouTube channel. And then there would be one where a video essay kind of thing where I'm maybe using comments,

6:16because I found myself- So I'm not a big person who comments, but then I did at the Animal Farm premiere. Because I've been the past couple of years I've been trying to be sort of not equivocating, but just trying to be a little bit more careful about what I say. And because we have a fascist regime, you can be arrested. We'll get to that. That was not shame. That was fucked up. That was shame to have been. Not to you. And that is designed to scare us, right? But at Animal Farm, I was like, this is all well. I should be able to speak freely. And I went in on the red carpet and I just said everything. I was just me and I said what I needed to say. And people, whatever attention it got, but I was on the people.com or people magazine Instagram page and reading some of the comments and just one woman was like, because I was talking about the right set of been taking away from trans people and she's like, name one right, name one right.

7:16And I had time that morning. And so I'm just on my phone and like I run out of space and that comments. I think there's like three comments of like all of the rights and executive orders and policies that this regime is taking away from trans people that people have no idea about. So like I'm on a red carpet talking about this. And it's like as much as people are talking about trans folks and making like making a fake outrage, the material effects of these policies and the manufacturer consent and decumunization of trans people is not being covered. People have no idea. Yeah. Well, maybe that's something that you can do. Let's talk about that. Yeah. What is it I'm passionate about doing? What does it feel like now being in this moment where they are using trans people obviously is a political cudgel and for the most vulnerable people in our society and quite frankly as you know, not a large part of our society, right? But still deserving of the right of every other person, right?

8:22White, black, straight, gay, cis, not, you know, every, the whole thing. What does that feel like to be targeted? I don't, I already be part of, I know what it feels like for me, but part of a community that is underserved and that has been targeted before and then on top of that to have the, the whole government, it appears a one party coming after. So it is the full weight of the government of the state. The state, thank you. That's better put. If it's a lot of different things, it's a lot of different things. So when I go out into the world and I, since 2025, since the election of 2024, whenever I meet a parent of a trans person or an aunt or an uncle and they tell me, oh, my, my nephews trans, my niece is trans, my son is trans, my daughter.

9:22Maybe I've, I've met a lot of parents of trans people. They always have tears in their eyes. And this is, this is hard for me because they, everybody loves their child. Hopefully, these parents love their children dearly. And most of them have had to go on a journey to fear out what this trans thing is to try to like accept them and love their child and they get there. And then the world turns against trans people. We, I'm, I'm the, the stats, the Trevor Project, I'm determined that states that have anti trans policies that kids are bullied more in their states. I forget the exact statistic around that. So I meet parents of trans kids, they always have tears in their eyes because they're so scared for their kids because if they're in the South, they probably have to flee the

10:23South because they're them being supportive parents has been criminalized. If you support your kid in their transition, you could go to jail. Doctors can go to jail in Alabama in Texas and Florida. And so we have families with trans people fleeing states and everybody can't do that. And then, but they're making that sacrifice and their just, parents are scared for their kids anyway. And then to know that there's, there's just this hate train going on. If that's devastating, so that's one part of it. And then there's the part of me that like looks at the big picture of things and tries to look historically and understands that one of the tools of fascism is to sort of pick an out group and position the in group as a victim and then use that out group. And right now it's so clear. Like, what is the, what are the best things about this moment to me anyway?

11:25And I think to anybody who's paying attention is that it's so clear what's going on. They've used immigrants and they've used trans people as an out group to scapegoat to, and that's part of fascism to like make people in the in group victims, i.e. white people, straight white men, they're the victims now. Agreed, they're agree. They're agree, but that's that the tool of fascism, right? And so we had this out group that we scapegoat and it becomes this simultaneously a smoke screen so that we're not focusing our attention on the other one percent, trans people less than one percent of the population, so are billionaires. And they're the ones who are where they're the reason why we, you know, inflation is out of the, out of this, this people can afford housing, gas price as well as a, a, a no-look art billionaire president. So it's a distraction, but then it is also the material realities for immigrants, for

12:29trans people, for queer people are real. Like having our ID documents not match who we are, having our health care taken away, not being able to get a job, losing, I have so many trans friends who have lost so many opportunities. I understand. Let me ask you this. This is going to sound crazy to some people and people are going to want to cancel me for it, but this is a very, but this is a very, yes, yes, don't let me be offensive. Do you feel, do you ever feel like you said less than one percent of the population and so much of the conversation around 2024 now or around trans people? Is there, do you feel in a way like damn, maybe we shouldn't be the main characters right now because there's a much larger population that's suffering when we're such a small person. I'm not saying that's how I feel, but people wonder that the conversation. We did make ourselves the center of the conversation. We did not make ourselves the center of the conversation. Republicans. And there was no way that less than one percent of the population could actually do that. We don't have the power to make ourselves the main character.

13:32The right wing did that very intentionally. When marriage equality became the law of the land, they knew they needed another scapegoat another issue. Similarly, when in the 1970s, when they couldn't really talk about busing anymore and defunding Christian schools that weren't integrated, they turned to abortion. So after marriage equality, it was trans people. They tried with bathroom bills, most famously in 2016 with HB2 in North Carolina that failed. And they literally, Heritage Foundation, last defending freedom, they focused groups, various trans issues and found trans sports. Was that with the Trojan horse, the first anti trans bill on sports bill banning trans girls from sports within the year 2019, the next year it passed in Iowa, I think. And then now had the country ban. Yes, and very important we were saying, but long story short is that they found something

14:33that worked. Absolutely. And they stepped to it even though it's a small percentage of the population. Which doesn't really matter in a sense because it's still people. Absolutely. Who are not. It matters if you're trans. Yes. It matters if you love somebody who's trans. I'm saying the small numbers. It's the care about human rights. If you care about freedom and human rights, bodily autonomy, freedom. If you care about freedom. Yeah, but hear me out. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that even if it's a small number, if it's one person that's being discriminated against, or losing their rights, we should be focusing on that. That small number doesn't matter. People say that I'll tell them it's such a small presence. I don't think that that is an issue. I didn't ask that question because I believe that I asked that question because I hear that. You've heard that. It's such a small percentage. Why is everybody focusing on them? And you're right. It was the, was MAGA and the Republicans that found a way, right, something that roused up their base and then they'd been using it. Right. But there's another portion of it. There's another part of it. When I say it's a Trojan horse, it actually becomes a way to take away all and discriminate.

15:39They're going for the tea because they want to go after the LGBT and everybody else. And everybody else. Yeah. They've successfully gutted the Voting Rights Act in 1965. And with this trans, anti-trans policy, particularly in the courts, in the recent trans sports case that was at the Supreme Court, they basically said it is legal to discriminate against trans people because they're barring, trans girls from sports without trans, barring, trans boys from sports. And the test, the potential genital inspections that girls will have to experience, boys will not have to experience. That's clearly a violation of Title IX, right? It should be. What's inhumane? It's inhumane. But what happens? The finishing of that thought is that the protections that we have gotten through the courts as trans people, then all of a sudden gender protections for all women go away.

16:41Heritage Foundation released a memo after the Supreme Court decision saying, maybe we should rethink all Title IX protections in the Heritage Foundation. Obviously, gets within the public and public party. So it becomes a way to take away all women's rights. Then all of that, all civil rights, period. Okay. So there's got to be people who are standing up for you, and that's a Democratic Party right now, who are supporting, who are the most supportive of trans rights. Republican Party is not there. More. Yeah. More supportive. You can't say they're not better. You can say they're less supportive than that's the Republican Party. The two, the Democratic Party is more supportive. Absolutely. Are they supportive? Is there any question to be? That's my question. Let me get to the question. So then what would you, let me get to the damn question. I'm so sure. My tall said to listen, I'm a working project. Well, I'm, this is cool. It's cool. I like this. So then what would you have the Democratic Party do in order to be more supportive? Not only to be better stewards, right, but to be better communicators, better messengers,

17:47more understanding. What would you have the people who support you more than the other party do? I told you, let me get to the question. For me, when it comes to the Democratic Party, obviously in our duopoly, they are much better. However, what I would have the Democratic Party do to be more supportive of the trans people and working people is stopped taking corporate money. I would have everybody, all politicians, I would ban money from politics, because that is really the reason that politicians like Gavin Newsom would throw us under the bus and others and so many others. Because of their donors, because they're like focused testing everything, because they're afraid, they have no courage of their convictions. And then I think getting the money out first step and then maybe they could muster some

18:48kind of belief system about what's right and wrong. And then understand that with a fascist regime, with the Republican Party, they are not going to be satisfied until what they wrote in that project 2025 is fully realized, which is so they're coming for everybody. It's deeply racist. John Stewart, I'm Deter none of you on his weekly show with Crystal Ball and Salverangetti from Breaking Points, more independent media, and made this brilliant analysis about right-wing populism versus left-wing populism. He referred to Steve Bannon and with Steve Bannon, he takes some ideas from left-wing populism like attacking the elites and getting money into the work hands of working people.

19:52There's also this Christian nationalist element that's the language that John Stewart used, but I'll say white supremacist element to right-wing populism. That also is very important. The Christian nationalism is correct. It's white supremacy. He didn't use that word. And then he went on to say it seems in this iteration there's more focus on the latter than the former, right? There's no, and he brilliantly said that the Republican Party is not getting the Supreme Court justice to make sure we have amendment wage or to make sure that people have affordable housing, but they have made sure that you can racially profile people you might suspect or undocumented or you can get rid of affirmative action in college and university. So what do you have a Democratic Party do to fix that? I would have the Democratic, but then he went on to say later, I was done. He went on to say later, I'm getting there, to say with me, he went on to say later

20:57critiquing AOC and Mamdani, sort of poo pooing woke one, woke 1.0. And then he said, you know, defunding the police, everybody should want safety, right? So he was like, he was just, he made like people wanting to defund the police or at least reallocate police resources to a safety issue. And I was like, John, I love John Stewart, I've done a daily show. I think he's brilliant, but I think that so blind spot that he has because it's a blind spot. So like he could, he could, he could, he could, he could correctly identify that the Republican Party is a white supremacist party right now and really always has been. And then when there's a critique of policing, he thinks it's about safety and does not tie that back to the white supremacy. And so I think there's a, there's an analysis piece. I want to make sure they understand that. Because I didn't see the thing. I know. No, he, I, I caught it because they're basically the woke 1.0. Did you see all that conversation with people saying AOC and some people were like AOC

22:01who may be running for president day woke 1.0, but we were a little, that was a little crazy. Mamdani said something similar and a lot of it was around defund, a lot of it was around language. And for a lot of mainstream people, like a lot of like a Bill Mar or a lot of people who are anti-wov Republicans, they're like, yeah, 1.0 was crazy. But people, what 1.0 we're, we're kind of thinking 2020, right? We're thinking about the murder of George Floyd that like galvanized the biggest political protest in American history. A lot of that was crazy, right? And it only became crazy because the conservatives are so good at setting the agenda and having everybody else go along with it. So another thing I would have the Republican Party do is not concede to right, not concede to right wing framing around wokeness around anything, but instead set the agenda.

23:01Okay. So that, I've said the same thing all the time, but much shorter for me, I said that, I said that the Democratic Party allows their enemies or their opponents to define them and what their agenda should be. They should be defining their own agenda. And I've always said that and this, something around trans people, around woke or whatever, because I don't think woke is a bad thing. No. If people were awake, we wouldn't be in this moment that we're in now with the Democratic Party and the media allowed us to be demonized and allowed us to be reappropriated at something awful. Right. So that's what I'm asking you because I have my issues I know as a black gay man with what I would do, but so that's why I ask you that. And that's why I ask you that question because that's some of the framing around such a small percentage. You've heard people saying that and you mentioned Gavin Newsom and whatever. So that's why I ask you that question is before that people would go out. I can't believe he's asking that question. Sometimes you have to ask the questions that your, the opposition would ask in order to get the answer that the folks who you support or support you will understand. And really, what does it mean to have the courage of your convictions?

24:04If you, if something, all of a sudden becomes unpopular when Republicans do that. I mean, as much as I despise the Republican Party and believe, I believe now that the Democratic Party at large, the corporate mainstream Democrats are Republicans, the Republicans are fascist and like leftist for the most part, like the DSA folks, they want health care for everybody. They want like living wage, they want like money out of politics. Like these are like popular issues. If you poll at the American people, like they want to know such a Democrat saying going along with that shit. They're not out there. Oh, girl, I'm thinking, oh, they're going hard and the sad, the sad thing is that they're going harder against people to their left than they are against Trump. Yeah, that's right. That they're liberalism because liberalism and neoliberalism specifically in this

25:04particular third way iteration of the Democratic Party is more aligned with the Republican Party because of corporate interests. But I do think that in the money. I do think that you should be aware of language and messaging because when you say socialism, socialism doesn't mean the same thing to all people. Absolutely. If you're, you know, if someone who's coming over from a socialist country and they are here because they want to, they ran away from socialism, that scares them. You are potentially. There's a generational divide around socialism is like a scary word. There is. But younger people have less of that. But that's the message. That's all part of messaging. And so when you use that word, just like when you say defund the police, I've always thought defund the police was a bad message because you're handing the opposition something. You're handing them an opposition campaign. And where you depend on what you do is you sometimes the language. It just needs to be finessed. It's because ultimately, because I was, when I heard you fund the police in 2020, I was

26:05like, wait, what? And then I went to a seminar and I was like, it's actually about reallocating resources. Yes, yes, yes. So people aren't going to seminars. All they hear is to fund the police and that means to them, you want to take the money away, you want to get rid of policing. But there's also, but that's not what it means. That's not what it means. But also, I think bad messaging. You can say we need, we need to, we need to, you know, whatever. The language needs to be refined. I wouldn't say bad messaging. I would say we can refine the language. No, it's not. And like you know, political campaign is bad messaging. It's not, if you're explaining what something means, you're losing the burn. I agree. I, I, I agree. And no one is, no GSA members are running on, defending the police. And no corporate Democrats ever ran on it, but they, the Republican Party attached it to the many way. They call Obama a socialist. They're going to call you whatever they want. One hundred percent. So that's, and so my thing is, so Democrats need to take back the messaging. No, need to take back the messaging around socialism and what it is and define it themselves

27:06rather than letting their opponents. Well, I mean, I think it depends on which Democrats you're talking about. Because I came Jeffries, he's, that's not interested. Chuck Schumer's not interested. Chris and Jill Brand's not interested. They just want to, they would, I think I believe they'd rather have Republicans in office and have someone in the DSA because when you have a, with the DSA and social Democrat maybe a better, better language, I would like, you know, entertain that. At someone like Bernie Sanders and AOC, they don't take corporate money. They're not paying the consultants who buy ads and advise, get the same bad advice, right? Comalist campaign, there was a difference with when she launched in 2024, there was an energy, I think a lot of it was because like, you know, Biden bus is hard. He's just an old man. So I think people were just like, yay, you know, somebody who can, you know, talk. And Tim Walls, me, was calling them weird and then the Democratic consultants who were the same staff that Biden had said, don't say weird anymore.

28:10Don't talk about price gouging anymore. Let's, what was that, what was her agenda like a corporate, it was sends like some corporate speak. Who called her us? Yeah, Conla Harris around her. She came out, when you talk about price gouging again, simple messaging, people understand that and it is weird. The white wing like a session with trans people is weird. Like it's very weird. Well, you know why it's weird. You know why it's weird? Can we get to that? We have the data, yes. Yes, let's get to that. You know, we check numbers all day, all day long, I'm sure you do. How many steps did I take? What's my heart rate? How much did I sleep? Some of us check our bank accounts more often than we probably should and I talk about polling numbers a lot, all kinds of things, statistics, everything. But when was the last time you checked your blood pressure? Because here is the problem with that. High blood pressure often doesn't make you feel any different. You can feel perfectly fine and have no idea what your numbers are.

29:12And that's why, 120 light, this caught my attention. They have a simple 14 day experiment. Check your blood pressure, drink 120 life once a day, keep checking your numbers and see what happens for yourself. I like that. You don't have to guess, you don't have to anything. You just measure, right? Go to 120life.com, that's 120. L-I-F-E.com and use my code, which is done, DON, for 20% off. Try it, risk free for two weeks. And if your blood pressure doesn't come down, you get a full refund. That's 120life.com and the code is done, women. These statements have not been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Always check with your doctor. There's so many aspects to it. Yes. So many aspects to it, but you are in the dating world as a three-inch woman. So are you. OK, you are for the last couple of years. But who is the biggest, who's your biggest, I want to say customer clientele because that's

30:13a wrong language. But the biggest purveyor of people who are attracted to you and want to have a relationship or whether it be a loving relationship or a sexual relationship or both, who is that? In my 30 plus years of dating, I've often found conservative men attracted to me, seeking me out for sex and or relationships. It's more conservative men. It's just a very similar experience with closeted right-wing men. And the more obsessed they are with me, meaning they hate me so much. It's so high school. It's like, those are the ones that are sliding in your DMs and you're like, wait a minute, or you know, closing up next to your boss. But with me, they would never, but now that I'm like a public figure, they would be signing them because I'm not a sex worker, they would never do that with me, but before. Oh, they do that with me. Get a couple drinks in them. Oh, my God. I have the Republican Convention at the inauguration that I went to Trump Hotel in DC for the inauguration

31:20in 2017. Yeah. And you know Bacari Sellers, right? Were you saying, go, did you get it? No, no, no, I was in a relationship. Did you get the Republican? But Bacari convinced me to go. I'm like, I'm not going there. He goes, I'm going to protect you. Nobody's going to mess with you. I said, oh, I'm not worried about that. I just don't want to get hit on so much. And he's like, you gave me and you think, oh, man, I'm like, okay, let's go. And he was shocked. He looked over and he saw everybody trying to buy me a drink. And their wives are right there and they're like, I'm like, I told you. And I'm like, let's get out of here. And I think that I remember, it's slightly, hopefully it's not too off topic. I remember when, not my last boy from the boy from before that, I sort of went public with him here on Kyle. He's out there. And he's a real estate agent, LA, and I posted him and tagged him. And people were like, why are all the black LGBTQ celebrities dating white men? Emulations with white men. And they like sighted you and Billy Porter.

32:21And they sighted all these black gay men. And I was the only trans person. I was just like, our situations are not the same. You're, I, correct me if I'm wrong, but your dating options might, when gay men come out, they come out into a community of other gay men who are hopefully open and wanting to date. When you come out as a trans woman and if you're attracted to men, there's not like, if I did other trans people, it'd be a different thing, but I don't. I'm not, you know, I'm not attracted to other trans people. You come out as a trans woman and I'm a woman and men are straight men are attracted to me, a straight identified men are attracted to me. There's not a community that I come out into. So there's like all these options, even as like a well-known person. Being well-known makes it even worse honestly because it's like, unless the man is really secure. So it's, did you, like so, I mean, on your end, I mean, I know, I've seen it.

33:23People have been, you know, you have a, I believe your husband is white. Yeah, yeah. I don't keep up with, I don't keep up with people's love lives. So do you have, do you have any thoughts about that? Do you have any, I take on like people like, basically like, you know, saying that we're like, fucking, you could say it's black like this, not like this, that we're not black enough because we have white partners. Why do you, I don't, look, okay, I'm glad you asked that question. I don't give a fuck. This is my life. I'm going to date and marry who I want to marry. I'll say things again because I am free now. Even from people who criticize me as a gay person. I've been doing, I've been out for a long time as a gay man, right? And I mean, not necessarily in my professional life that I was out because I was like, okay, I want to get into a weird. But when I came out, it was 2011 and that's around the time that you and I got to meet each other. It was a different time then, right? Even for same-sex marriage wouldn't happen for years after that.

34:26I was one of the first people, if not the first major, male anchor to come out is gay, right? And a black man too. So that was, I was really worried that I would never have another job. Before that, when you knew me, I wasn't in the relationship that I'm in now. I was, if you saw me, I had dated men across their spectrum rainbow. But the one thing that I wouldn't date, black, white, Latino, whatever was somebody who's in the closet or somebody who's on the DL, that's not my thing. And when I was coming around, like becoming a man of the world, most of the black men I met and Latino men were not out to their parents. I'm not going to go to Christmas and have Christmas and not go to your family or go to your family's house and pretend I'm just your roommate. It's not happening. And same thing with my family. My family can't be around you and you're in the closet and all of that. To almost to a person, every black man that I dated years later said, you encouraged

35:30me to come out. I was afraid. And once I did, it was the best thing that I've ever done. Would you like to go out? Nope. I'm in a relationship already. And so for all the people who say, oh, Donald, and only dates white men, that's bullshit. I happen to fall in love with someone who loved me, who I fell in love with, who happened to be white, who's got my back. If you saw what happened to me when I was arrested, he does not play about me. And he is not in the closet. I was just at a family function with his nephews going off to college last night. I spent holidays with them. I think love it. Vacation with them. And so I'm not doing that. And so that was my issue. Now had I found a black man then who was not in the closet, who I can relate to, I would have married a black man. But it's not because I am looking for a white man. And people say, you say white men, you say white men are, what do they say about me? White men, when I said white men were the biggest terror threat in the United States, which is true, which is what Christopher Ray they had to be at the end of the night. Absolutely. Right, white men radicalized to the right conservative white, you know, people who are

36:30domestic terror, white, white, white, white, white, absolutely. And biggest terror threat to the United States. And they're, oh my God, how dare you. But you go home to a white man. I said, yeah, but not that kind of white man. Do you know what I'm saying? So I really don't get it for you. No, people, you know, when I dated, you know, I don't want to talk about too much about my ex, but like you're dating her. Oh, we're going to talk about your ex. Or dating your oppressor. And it's like, it just seemed that way, LeBern. Talk to me about that. It, it, not in, in the big, so. I am so overtaking about this man. Um, publicly, I, we met in 2020. Um, we matched on Tinder in 2019, but we met in person in 2020. He told me he was in commercial real estate. I lived in L.A. at the time, but I was back in between L.A. and New York. I was not looking for a boyfriend. I have a, there's a boyfriend screening and there was a hook up screening. I don't know if you remember your single day. That's your business. Right. Like there's a, there's a different screening. Yeah.

37:30If you want to, right. You know, or if you want to have a relationship. And so, um, he was a hook up screening. We met. We did that. And then we really clicked. And then I came, when I came back to town and then like, all of a sudden, like feelings developed and, um, I was not expecting. How long were you together? You said two years? Um, like, almost four, like from, um, we, we met July 1st, 2020 and we broke up the last week of March, 2024. And you didn't know he was mad? I, he told me, well, he told me he was a cop. I kind of suspect. Okay. So, and this is also the evolution too of me dating, um, because that, because for a long like, there was one moment because it was 2020. I'm very sorry about structural racism. There was one moment. So he told me he didn't tell me he was a cop till November. There was a moment before that when we were hanging out and he was like, this is a structural racism. You said, you think that's the thing and I was like, do you think I'm going to go there? I was just trying to have fun. I was just trying to have, you know, and then I suspect it because it's happened before

38:34when I like talk about politics, it turns them off because they're, because they're conservative because like, so I mean, I, like, it's kind of like a don't ask don't tell. I don't want to know because I was not looking. He was fine. I was like, I was giving my life, you know. So he, so he was, so he's like, do you really want to talk about, I have a, like, do you really want to talk about this? We're having fun. And he's like, why not? And I was like, are you sure? I do. I don't say I have to store in Madness podcast. And so I do like a 20 minute, like Ted talk basically about the history of structural racism through house, the housing man's, I just read Richard Rossing's color of law. And after like the 20 minutes, he just, I was like, so what do you think? And he just looks at me and grabs me and starts kissing me like, have sex again. And I was like, okay. And so that was a hint that he was conservative. And then he told me he was a cop in November of that year and by that time I already had feelings. I had already developed like, I got to know a person.

39:36And in the rationalization was like, well, we all work for corrupt institutions. And we do in capitalism. There was contradictions existing capitalism. And so and then he said, I don't feel safe telling people. And he said, I don't feel safe telling people that hit my empathy chip. And I was like, of course, of course. And that made sense to me. And I was just, I was having such a good time and like the time of my life. Like I was, I was, I was envious. Like the connection we had, obviously it started out as a sexual one. But then when it moved beyond that, it was. He took him that long to tell you was mega. Yeah. And he told me, when he told me, when we first met July 1st, because I just did that seminar about defund the police, I was, I say, we need to defund those police. Like July, the first time we've ever met, he was like, I'm definitely not telling her up my cop now. So I think he waited that long because I'm like, we need to defund the police.

40:36And he wanted to keep things, whatever. And he didn't, maybe he didn't know that we would have developed feelings for each other. So why tell me if we're not going to be just going to be out? You know, it's going to be hard to go play. People are going to say you were from 2021 to 2025 and you didn't know the man was 24. 24. Yeah. I, I realized he was concerned. No, I realized he was conservative. And like, so I had already had feelings for him. So I realized he voted for Trump. He's a cop. And I just was, I had a new cop policy. And that's supposed to break up with him. And that's supposed to just, I mean, some people worried. Like he had been, but I, I was 48 years old when I met him. And like the way when it was good and Maddie would say he brought his representative, I never felt that safe with the man. I never felt that scene with the man. I felt a spiritual connection. I knew what he did for a living, but I, there was this soul, this like pure soul in there that like he shared with me that I thought was beautiful. Do you regret it? Absolutely not.

41:37No. Absolutely not. And I didn't because I feel like I believe in love and I believe in seeing, trying to see people beyond political affiliation. Obviously now it's, I mean, I met him in 2020. This Trump 2.0, fascist regime, there's an a no way I would date like a Republican now. I would, that would be part of the criteria, the screening criteria. It was something I didn't want to know back. And I think it's, I think it's being older because I knew like it would ruin things. I remember, you know, having full of conversation and just kind of like. So you would do it again, don't you wouldn't make it public? I would date a Republican again.

42:37No. You had to repeat that whole experience. If you could go back and repeat that, would you date him again or would you? I mean, I was, I would you just not talk about it afterwards? If I had to do it again, I probably, I wouldn't change that either. I didn't expect people because for me, what I thought people would think it's, how does she make this work? What this is interesting, this is, I mean, I think about maybe because I'm old, I think about Maria Schreiber and Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, the Democrat Republican dating and people would be curious about that and how that works. And that'd be an interesting story instead of like, James Carville and Mary Matlin, whatever. They have a, you know, she's a Republican. He's a very far left. Well, not very far left. James Carville. James Carville is not a Democrat. But he used to, you know, not in this day in time, but he would be considered that in the time when he came to prominence work. So no, I don't, I don't believe in regrets. I believe in lessons and, and I, and I don't think I compromise my values because I, my

43:39values are love, my values are empathy and giving people grace until they show me that they are undeserving of it. You sat there and took it from the dolls because they came, they didn't have to. Yeah. But I, but I made it public and I really didn't expect it to do all that. I made it public. So I felt like I needed to like do some kind of accountability publicly. So yeah, that's what that was about. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now people ask me sometimes, how do you turn it off? And the answer is I don't always, especially when my work is like right here on my phone and I'm always picking it up. I'm not the only one I know. I spend hours every day talking about some pretty heavy stuff, politics, violence, people losing people they love. And then the show ends and the cameras go off and you're supposed to just move on with your day. But I've gotten better at recognizing that you have to take care of what's going on in your life, especially up here too, right? And that's why I think therapy can be so important.

44:40Sometimes you need somebody who isn't your spouse, your family, your friend, or somebody you work with, somebody whose job it is to listen and help you work through your own stuff. And that's where BetterHelp comes in. BetterHelp makes therapy accessible online and they can match you with a licensed therapist based on what you need. And if the first therapist isn't right for you, you can switch it anytime. No questions asked. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash Don Lemon. That's betterhelp.com slash Don Lemon. I was very impressed by you sat there with the dolls and you took it because they came for you, right? Because that is your community. And I love if... Let me get the question to you because I know where you're going. I think I know where you're going. It's a very similar way that Steven Asimit is not... You took it and understood it, I believe. And differently than Steven Asimit is not understanding what Black women are trying to tell him right now. He's really his. He's not, right?

45:40And so he's not taking it. And when he, instead of, when you sat there with them, you were like, okay, basically I'm paraphrasing you. And I received that, I'll do K, fair, whatever. And you just sat there, right? For him, there's always like an excuse about, well, this is who I am. He's always... He's always under defense. He's very... He's def... He's defense. He's defense. He's defense. So I admired that you did that. And I wonder if, though, that changed you in any way by sitting there and taking that, or did that have an effect on you personally? Did it have an effect on your standing as a, I think, deep, most high profile trans woman in the country, especially Black trans woman? For some people, yes. Yes. I mean, I think it's really about, I'm still who I am. I'm still... I'm the same with Earn.

46:41How people have been able to... How people perceive me. Well, I think before that, with a little bit of mystery, because as an actress, I won a little bit of mystery. And I was in a place where people could project whatever fantasy they wanted onto me. They could project Ola Vernits because I am... I am woke, and I am, I think, politically astute or whatever. And so people could project whatever fantasy around who I would partner with, or who they would want to see me partner with. And when I revealed that, they could no longer project that fantasy onto me. And I did something that they would never do. They would never date a white man, some piece of them. They would never date a cop. And it was a deal breaker. I lost 300,000. Instagram followers for it. So I understand the pair of social element to it. I understand. And for me, when I heard the word betrayed, that they felt betrayed the public, fans of mine, who I value and love felt betrayed. I was like, we got to...

47:41If there is repair to be made, how do we do it? And I think... Because we don't... No one models accountability publicly. We really... Like, real accountability. And so I'm in process of doing that. It is the repair. Because for me, it can't just be about my public image. Because for me, I want to be in service of something bigger than myself. So what does the repair look like? What does it look like? Because for me, this is me. People say they can't date a white man. Okay, that's your business, whatever. If someone is maga, I can't do it. For a whole... For myriad reasons. Because it's not like just a conservative anymore. Absolutely. And so to be clear, my ex doesn't actually identify as maga, I think it's important that it's a very Sam's ear. But do you see that as maga? I did. I used to turn maga because the way the Republican Party hits capitulated, she's like, we should make the whole Republican Party own that maga label.

48:45We should make them own it because they have allowed him to run rough shot over that party. The Republican Party is maga. So my ex does not identify as maga, but I make all the Republicans maga because I think rhetorically and politically, they all need to own that. So in this whole period of transition, they... So then what does the accountability look like? What does the question... What does the question... I think that's hard to say. I think for me, like there's like a... If you can't make personal image, you make a life image. And I think like for me, I've... And I've... No one's ever seen me touting some conservative idea or pushing some conservative whatever. I continue to fight to stand up for the most marginalized people for trans people for black people for working people for the marginalized people of all times. And I continue to do that. That works. So in this amends, whatever you said, it can be either personal or...

49:48It's a life-to-men. A life-to-men. When you've disappointed you're a public, right? It's like, how do you... You have to live differently and move differently. So in this... And learn the lesson and hear them. And this whole thing about transitioning and being in the studio and talking to me, and what is... What does that look like moving forward? Perhaps that's it. Perhaps that's the answer to your transition. That's your life's work is... But I also think what... You don't have to... That may have opened you up to something that you would not have been... Exactly. This is why they're no regret. I think a lot of people don't know me. I think a lot of... I mean, and what... What was fun coming out too is they also felt like there were a lot of people who had issues of me who've been dying to see it for years, but they didn't feel emboldened too. And they came out in like... You know, people started talking about my accent the way I talked. I'm from Alabama and now I'm whitewashed. I mean, people like... People do. But they didn't do it before. But they wonder where the accent... Where does the accent come from?

50:49I swear... I don't know. When I was growing up in Alabama, I did not want to sound Southern. I don't even think about it. I have an accent. But I didn't want to sound Southern. I thought it was hikki to sound Southern. So I watched TV and I practiced and I was watching Dynasty and I was watching, you know, BAME and whatever. And a lot of Jesse Norman on PBS. I love Jesse Norman the way she speaks. So yeah, I didn't even do voice... I was a dance major, so I didn't do voice and speech. So I just... But I love Southern accents now. I love them. I think they just... So you think it was... It gave people an excuse or a reason to... People. And then the people who know who I am and ride with me, they're still riding with me. And if people don't have to... Like, if people don't want to fuck with me because I've done love, like genuinely, and that's fine. So what do you think is next?

51:51I don't know. I know what I want to do. I have a solo show that I'm working on. I mean, it's saying the excited about that. And then, actually, the fun thing about it is that I'm playing several different characters and the theme is political. So it kind of gets you combined. It gets you combined my... Because I kind of... I'm kind of obsessed with politics. I'm laughing because I was going to ask you, would you ever run through office? People ask me that all the time. Can you... Like, they hit jobs. They hit the... But why did you care? It's all out there. Why would you care? I... I'm an artist. I'm an artist at heart. I'm an artist who's a highly sensitive people. And I mean, I've gotten better at like, people just outright lying about me because I'm in... People just... Or extrapolating from something I've said and making it out to be something I... That is not even... So I've gotten used to that and I like shrugged that off. You can be an artist and be a politician. I mean, we had a... We've had one who was... I'm not saying he's an artist, but he was...

52:52He's a con artist. He was a reality TV show star. And then we had one who was, you know, the governor of California and a pretty major actor back in the day. Back in the... No, he wasn't that major, actually. Well, okay, Pharaoh. I know. Yeah, but still, he was an actor indeed. Yeah. Towards Bush's paints now. If I ran for obviously would be... Like, I would have to... Like, maybe in my 60s, you know. I have too much work to do artistically. But I... Combining the art and politics feels... And having humor and fun entertainment. And then also showing my range as an actor. I love acting so much. And I have not... I feel like I haven't gotten to show the public everything I can do. I feel like I have so much more to do with an artist. And I'm ready to let them know that there's the... No. That I got... That I got the goods. I'm here to help. I hope you learn...