JP Miller Was at Mica's First Wedding — What He Did Next

0:00This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Death of a pastor's wife. Maybe you've seen it. It's on Netflix now. If you are not familiar with the JP Miller, John Paul Miller saga and Micah Miller tragedy, it's a great place to start your journey of going down that road. We've been covering it here on the show for the last several years, kind of on and off, but now there's obviously there's federal charges against JP. And the documentary pretty much holds nothing back in a nutshell. JP Miller met Micah when she was just a teen agent. Some accounts have it all the way to the age of 10. At 18, he officiated her first marriage to another man, Jeremy Diaz, only to later make her his personal assistant and then initiated an affair with her and have her as his Danny.

1:00Well, he's married. And then he married her himself. That's the lead up. That's the life before the death of Micah Miller. And we're going to get into that. We're going to get into life after the tragedy and even more today. But we want to kind of work sequentially through this, the coercive control years, if you will, everything that led up to the death of Micah Miller. Here to help us do that. Chavon Scott, psychotherapist and author as well as Robin Drake, retired FBI special agent, chief of the counter intelligence behavioral analysis program. Watch this doc, like I said, if you've not done so yet, news nation also did a great, they even had the man who did the interview on the doc. He did like an hour with JP about a year ago. I remember, I think I was on Bandfield that night talking about it. It is, it's a stunning to watch. It's stunning to watch the behavior of JP Miller as he believes how he's he's coming across

2:03as a competent human being. It's just you got to watch it to fully grasp. Let's start with the long game of grooming though, Chavon. The documentary reveals the timeline. JP met Miller as a teenager, officiated her first marriage at 18 eventually inserted himself into her life as her boss, pastor and lover. People on the outside looking in, seeing what happened here going, oh my God, he totally prayed on this woman. Her side looking in at that moment in time, it's a love story. This is someone that she trusts that she's cared about, that it's been through many moments of life with her on. How is it that we're able to have such very different viewpoints depending on how close to the sun we're flying? You know, I thought it was a great documentary. I watched it on my laptop and I really had the urge to wipe the whole laptop down the

3:03pan so I could kind of climb up to work. Of course, throw it out. Oh, yeah, it was just, he is such a slimy person. But yeah, the grooming I think is common, particularly in certain kinds of churches. I certainly saw it in the church I grew up in. But I saw her as a sad teen. You know, her sisters brought out that there had been a divorce in the family. It impacted her tremendously. And she turned to church. She turned to faith. And I think she became obsessed with it and I pretty much did the same thing. But it left her vulnerable. And her faith became her identity and her purpose and her coping mechanism and where she put her emotions. And it was just integrated into her personality in a very, very, very deep way. And that set her up for a guy like this, a predator. You know, there's so many striking things that is Shivan that just the red flag, the red

4:11flags were waving numerous times. I thought, and I'm curious because, and I know editing has a lot to do with this, especially making Netflix special and things like that. But every time they're showing the church congregation and JP preaching, he's got some sexual theme going and submissive sexual theme going. I mean, years ago when we were very church going family and in laws and everything, the way we grew up, I never once heard any of those themes in church once. Yet, it again, editing could have been it, but it sounds like it was a recru… They weren't playing the same clip again and again and again. And so I'm curious, what… Your interpretation was it an intentional, grumid of an entire church? Are these people self-selecting into this? I mean, how come this group of people that were then tithing and giving money to pay him for this messaging yet at the same time, as Amy Dugger King has said on our show,

5:17beautifully from the Duggers in IBLP, that they cherry-pick portions of the Bible they want to use to their own gain. He was totally doing that, but for such a long period of time and sexualizing the entire Bible and the subjugation of women, how does that happen? I was baffled at the fact that his church kept growing. You know, they said it started off with just a handful of people. And this is where we go back to the cult word. I mean, you have this carousel, I thought he was a cook, but apparently a lot of people found him funny. They found him charming. I mean, this is all cluster B stuff. It's a plate of piano. Oh, like Jerry Lee Lewis, right, who also married his 13-year-old cousin. But yeah, it was shocking to see the people. And you know, I always am careful of a church where everybody waves their hands in the air

6:20all the time. That was my church too. There was a lot of that going on. And you know, but these people were into it. And it was like he created this closed system, this kind of us versus them. We've got it. We're the most loving group and how they sucked people in. You know, people talked about, oh, I just went and they made me feel so good. That's classic cult stuff. And then this sexual compulsion, my God, you could do a case study on this guy's sexual behavior, multiple perf. He is, he abused the heck out of her sexually speaking of Micah. And it's allegedly an old man brought in homeless. Allegedly, yeah. I mean, all of these are allegations against him. He's never been convicted of anything. He's never been charged with a lot of, there has been some charges. But a lot of these are allegations. I should say that.

7:22Do people in environments like this, is this a group that's susceptible to fall into one of these churches and to see a person like JP on stage? And yes, he's charismatic. He's intense with the way he delivers a message. Is that intensity often mistaken for authenticity with groups like this where it's such a gray line they don't quite have the ability to identify someone's real intent or even the depth of the meaning behind the message that's being given out because the intensity is so engaging. Because some of the things he's talking about, where he's talking about his wife and it's all about submission to him. And if they refuse it, then they're going to find somebody by the end of the day so you better give it up to him when he asks. I mean, it's like holy shit. And then this congregation just like keep going JP.

8:23But he's delivering with intensity and that carousel that those preachers have. Oh my gosh, this is the word of the Lord. Tithing time. I mean, it seems like the more intense some of these people can be, the more people eat this shit up, whether it's good or not. It's just like the spigot is on and they're just, they can't fill up their pictures quick enough. Yeah, they bought into it and I have the same thought is who would be bamboozled by this? Who could sit and listen to this, right? And then I go back to me at 13 when I was listening to weirdo pastors. Maybe at 13, I would have been fooled by the intensity, but boy, I would have sure grown out of it pretty fast. But this focus on sexuality in his sermons and this thing about wife's cannot say no. And so basically this powerful guilt for any woman that would be listening to that and

9:28feel like, well, you know, this is just what God wants. And so confusing this obedience thing that women are the help me and are there to serve the husband and the husband is the power in the family and the control. It creates a lot of self doubt in the women and I'm sure there were men who thought, hey, this is pretty good. I like this, you know. But again, there's apparently a lot of people who just don't have the insight and it would be interesting to have some interviews with people who may be wondered in and got creeped out and say, yeah, this was just over the top. I really wonder, you kind of like with IBLP and the Dougers where they, it attracts predators. And I really, again, innocent, proven guilty, just conjecture, thought experiments, all those things. I'm really curious about how he grew his congregation. Was it because men were dragging their women to this or was it vice versa because he's

10:31putting out a message that's great for predators. Exactly. People that, or, or, or, people that want to take advantage and subjugate people in their lives like their women, their wives because that's, again, it blows mind. He was so consistent on kept preaching this subjugation and cherry picking out of the Bible. What do you want it to? Yes. Does he, do people like that even know? Do you think he knew that, you know, when he's, he's writing out his sermons or picking out the direction he's going to go with it? I mean, is there the active thought process there in JP's mind, you know, and unconjecture here? Like, all right, I got a, I really need to make this one land this week because of what's going on in my life with Mike at home or wherever. And if I, if I talk to the congregation that this is how wives should act and see everybody's to see everybody's doing this. Mike, you should do this too. Like, is that, is even aware that he's doing it? I guess it's a question or is it just for someone like this, this is just the modality they have and their modality is manipulation.

11:31And manipulation is a manipulation to them. It's just a way of life. Yeah. I'm going to guess this was conscious on his part to some degree, but it was all self-serving. It was his defense mechanism, the way the guy moves through the world. And the other thing I wanted to mention, you know, what my term for most of these folks cluster B, right? Because you see this overlapping with narcissism and the psychopathy, the manipulation, the lack of a conscience, the, you know, hidden rage that he would take out on Micah. All cluster B, but the big one that really hit me over the head that we don't always see is the histrionic personality. Yeah. This guy loved an audience. Talk about doing big, dramatic emotions. And a histrionic person wants the eyes on them all the time and they're not happy when they're not in front of an audience. And yeah, he really was. You put him on that piano and he lit up and he was, he was on fire internally when he

12:36was preaching. You could just tell how satisfying this was to him. So I think this is just his way of moving through the world, highly manipulative. And people like this do they have insight into what they're doing to some degree, but sometimes it's just the way they think. Yeah, Jenzee's put a lot of great comments in for us this morning. I thought this one was really good because I think it begs kind of a question and an interpretation here as well. He thought it was okay. Do you think it's, it's not just he thought it was okay, but to me he's also saying, hey, I'm a little unsure whether this is okay or not. So I'm going to, I'm going to put it out there for the world to validate it is okay. So is that part of it also? It could be. Yeah, certainly he wanted validation. Look for justification here. And he got the validation, which is the crazy part. And the other thing that struck me was when he's busted, right, with the affair with

13:38Micah from his first, you know, first wife, Ali. And this came out from Ali finding texts on his phone and then Micah confessed everything. The rationalizing of the group that well God forgives everybody. And this is part of their theology and their belief system. But the hystereonic again, the scene, so many scenes that just really, I have my notes again from the scene that just jumped out at me when he was rolling on the grass sobbing. Oh my God. Weird little boy. Oh my God, yes, I know. I think he knows what he's doing. And that's something that's worked for him. Well he does something horrible. It's exposed. And then he cries. And you know, that is so manipulative because he works his way back into the fold, worked his way back into being the pastor. And that should have been for savvy people, a sign of we've got a guy with a character

14:43logical problem here who is not suited for leading any group of people. And I know this topic has come up a lot, covering a Lindsay Clancy case and people have been arguing about performative and not performative. We've used other cases as examples of what performance in a courtroom looks like and doesn't look like that is performative. When you saw him bawling on the ground like a two year old, that is performative. Very much. Talking like this with his head. Oh my God. I mean, what? I mean, what? I mean, hystereonic. Let's talk about that for a little bit to help people understand a little bit more. I mean, that's an interesting thing because like when it's presenting itself in relationships without a camera and it's just interpersonal, I mean, it can be very destructive. And a lot of times, at least in my experience with folks like that, they seem rather clueless as to the destruction path that they're leaving in their wake. It's just, it seems to be their modality.

15:43Here is me had a camera that followed it around. But the desire for the attention, the desire for the chaos seems to be like unquenchable in so many cases with these people, which is why interpersonal, even without a camera, it's just like, what are you doing? Like, why are you continuing this sort of behavior that just is utterly chaotic and just leads to problems? Here, I mean, he's getting the feedback from society of like what you're doing is not right. Like this is messed up. This is weird. The attention is there. The attention gets more intense. The crazier shit he does. Does that just feed a historic person like this when you're in that sort of a position of power with a preacher hood or whatever you call it, pastoral, what it's technically called, but having a congregation that listens to you, does that just feed that sort of madness, the toxicness of a historic personality? Because it doesn't matter if it's good or bad. The feedback is there, the feedback exists, and the energy is being put back at your madness,

16:48and that just feeds it. It doesn't matter what if it's good or bad out of them. Yeah, it really doesn't matter as long as the eyes in the room are on them, and it's a compulsive drive. Look at me, look at me, look at me, and everything I saw with him from, as I say, his playing the piano, to his preaching, to his attempt at humor, which none of it I found funny, but in the congregation laughed. And folks like that, this is so much a part of who they are, when we talk about who can be treated and who can change, and what are the odds of that. Folks with historic personality, they never get it. They don't have insight. They don't want to change, and so this is a very poor prognosis for somebody changing or improving. The other thing that it's so shocking about this is, as they noted in our chat, and also when you watch a doc, he's honest third wife. Each one of these wives came from his own congregation that has seen this entire show

17:50from the inside, so it's not like he's going out in the public and grabbing one that has no idea of history, no idea of anything that's going on. His church even talked about, at least Micah did, about how divorce is against the churches, against God's will, and yet he's doing it. So are these, it's hard to imagine that you have an entire congregation of people that are completely unhealthy. It's just not realistic. But at the same time, you're seeing people inside his church agreeing with him, going along with him, and then saying, it's okay to marry him. Are they all, so Shavon, are you, you've seen these things from the inside? Are they all unhealthy people, healthy people that are wrapped up? How does that happen to a group that is largely, I imagine, composed with people that don't have malformations of brain, don't have chemical imbalances? Are they all broken or they just sucked in by something else? The word that pops into my head is naive, and people that have a very strong emotional

18:58need to be led. And they can, I mean, I think a lot of really broken and people who are dependent, you know, and you may not be a mentally ill person, but you can still be a highly dependent person. And so when you include the fact that they're naive, and he's very persuasive, I mean, not to us, but to, apparently, to a lot of people in the congregation, he could use Scripture, and of course they can't question Scripture because that's part of the whole thing. And the way, you know, from what I've seen in my own experience in these churches, however the pastor interprets Scripture, people buy into that because that's just part of, you know, part of the system. But it does have a cult-like quality. And I think people who are essentially healthy people, they don't have personality disorders, but they're needy, they're vulnerable, and they're prone to following charismatic cult leaders.

19:59And I think this was on the edge of something like that. Yeah. Now, I mean, without a doubt, it's shocking to watch. And obviously we can't diagnose him, so we don't know if he's truly asterionic or not, but that's our conjecture and opinion based on the observations that we've seen. Yeah, we can say we can, we can't give a DSM diagnosis, but we can certainly say observable behavior. A observable behavior. We can call him a nutter. Yeah, he's officially a nutter or a fronter. Or just a slime ball, either slime ball, nutter, slime ball. All of the above, all of the above. Your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube as we continue our conversation about death of a pastor's wife, the story of pastor, and I put it in air quotes because it's like you're not a pastor. J.P. Miller, John Paul Miller and the death of Micah Miller.