How to Replace Sauna, Fasting, and Cold Plunge With a Pill (WARNING: Proceed at Your Own Risk!) With Dr. Sandra Kaufmann

0:00My name is Ben Greenfield and on this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast. You said something like, there's a drug for just about everything that people do to optimize health with those type of methods these days. I think that's exactly what I said. Are you saying that there is a substitute for hard work or that there is a time and a place when you could use something to simulate what you might be getting through the hard work, what sweat and tears? I think there's a very complimentary. There has to be a way to replicate things. I love exercise. I'm a junkie just like probably most of your followers, but I travel a ton because I'm certainly not going to pull a song out of my suitcase in a hotel room. Welcome to the Boundless Life with me, your host Ben Greenfield. I'm a personal trainer, exercise physiologist and nutritionist and I'm passionate about helping you discover unparalleled levels of health, fitness, longevity and beyond. In this episode of the Boundless Life Podcast, I'm going to revisit an interview that I

1:02did with Dr. Sandra Kaufman, one of my favorite doctors because she's just fascinating, kind of weird, which is cool. The reason I wanted to re-air this conversation now is that a lot of what we talk about in this episode has become extremely relevant due to recent developments in the longevity drug space. Dr. Kaufman is technically an anesthesiologist. She spends her time asking a question that I love in this show. If a sauna or a fast or a cold plunge works by hitting a specific cellular target, is there a clean, well-studied drug that hits the same target? Her answer is often yes and this episode dishes out the full list. Now since we initially recorded this episode, Harvard researchers published a paper in Nature showing that lithium, which we talk about in this show, is a naturally occurring nutrient in your brain, and losing it maybe one of the earliest steps towards Alzheimer's. The dose that worked to address this was a tiny fraction of a psychiatric dose that's

2:05exactly the range that Dr. Kaufman talks about in this show years ahead of these headlines. So this is relevant. The show notes are going to be at bengreenfieldlife.com slash pharma. Let's go talk with Sandra. Sandy, welcome to the show. Great to be here. This is going to be fun. I know. Remember we were at that conference in the mountains, nosebleed country somewhere. Where were we? I forget. Sundance. Sundance. We're at this like private longevity conference and we're talking about exercise and sauna and cold and red light therapy and all these things that people do. And you said, well, I travel a lot and I've got a hack for a lot of that stuff. So say, there's me a lot of time and you basically think the way you phrase it was, you said something like, there's a drug for just about everything that people do to optimize health with those type of methods these days. I think that's exactly what I said. And then I think what I said, not to rehash our entire conversation, was we should do a

3:09podcast about that. And here we are. Yeah, here we are. Okay. So what actually got you thinking about this in the first place was it just, hey, I'm busy. I don't have time to sit for 40 minutes in a sauna or go to the gym for an hour or I hate cold plunges or what actually got you down this path of pharmaceutical alternatives to popular biohacks. Well, as you said in the intro, I'm a physician. I'm an anesthesiologist. So what I do mostly all day is deal with pharmaceuticals. And pharmaceuticals are very clean molecules. We know who made them. We know exactly what they do. And so when you start studying these molecules, you figure out like what they actually do for yourselves. One thing that doesn't get talked about enough in men's health is prostate health, despite the rampant number of jokes out there about the doctor sticking his finger, you know, where to check your prostate. Most guys spend plenty of time thinking about testosterone and muscle and cardiovascular health and recovery. But as you get older, your prostate becomes a pretty important part of that equation. And it starts affecting things like let's say urinary function or the annoying prospect

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7:17Let me push the hair out of my eyes. There you go. Works so well. So if you trace everything back to cellular optimization, you'll find that the behaviors of these molecules trigger the exact same things that a lot of these very popular activities do. So whereas I'm not against sitting in a sauna, it feels great. When you boil it down, it's the same mechanism. So if you're busy, it's just easier. Yeah, and I know you have kind of a whole list of things that you do. But before we even dive into that, I just know a lot of people right off the bat are thinking, well, wait, there's a difference between climbing Mount Everest and getting dropped off by a helicopter on the top of Mount Everest. And if you're going to tell me some drug, simulates me, you know, focusing and meditating and breathing my way and counting my way through a sauna session, surely I'm going to miss out on some of the character development.

8:20No way can I develop anyone's character. Do you have poor character that I can help you? What I can do is recommend systems to, again, cellular optimization. Are you saying that there is a substitute for hard work that there's a shortcut or that there is a time and a place when you could use something to simulate what you might be getting through the hard work, what sweat and tears. I think there's just very complimentary. Sometimes you have time for these things and sometimes you don't. And there has to be a way to sort of replicate things. You know, I love exercise. I'm a junkie just like, you know, probably most of your followers. I run, I lift, I swim, I rock climb, but I travel a ton. So I just can't always get to those things. And I'm certainly not going to pull a sauna out of my suitcase in a hotel room. So you know, I think they're going to work hand in hand, especially for people that are on the road a bit or just, you know, it's just easy or sometimes people with busy jobs,

9:24busy lives. It's just going to augment what people are doing already. Okay. Got it. And then, by the way, I'm going to buy the website, suitcase sauna.com. You just give me a great business idea. The other thing just to get a lot of these precursors out of the way is, I know you're going to describe a lot of these pharmaceuticals and drugs. And I also know that people are likely going to wonder, well, my doctor's never going to prescribe me this stuff. Like, my doctor's not going to give me, you know, whatever, you know, pigleta zone or whatever that one is for autophagy and prescribe that to me just because I can't get in the sauna or exercise or something like that. That is true. So, it depends on the physician to which you are going. Typical primary care folks are going to look at this stuff and go, yeah, that's ridiculous. It's, you know, unclear, unverte of whatever. However, there are some physicians that will do it. For example, I do it. I see patients in Hollywood, Florida and I will prescribe it as well.

10:28There are, you know, ways to get it on the internet. And I don't want to be seen as suggesting that people do things illegally. But there are absolute ways to get medications easily, safely, as long as people do it sort of in a safe way. And some of the drugs I talk about are completely and utterly safe. And some of the other ones need a little bit of guidance. Right. Right. Now, I have never bought laboratory research chemicals not safe for human consumption off sigma hall of drench, but people do that out of here. So when we're talking about, let's say, autophagy, right? One common thing that people do to enhance autophagy is fast, you know, modulates the MK and the M-Tore pathways. And it's one of the ways that we see potential increases in longevity in, you know, yeast, fruit, fly, other organisms. Some would argue that a big part of it is the calorie restriction out the compressed feeding window. But nonetheless, there's some autophagy at such a place via that.

11:29And some of these other things that people do that are, you know, hormetic stressors. What would you use as some type of agonist for something like that? So that's actually really funny. I thought we were going to do the other way around from top to bottom. You're starting at the bottom. So in order to activate autophagy, you need to tell your body that you have fewer calories available. So you need to activate AMP kinase, right, or deactivate M-Tore. There are several medications that do this. The most infamous, of course, is metformin. A lot of longevity folks are on metformin. So that's an easy one to start with. But several other ones do it too. Peaglitazone, dazit, lithium, dazit. So autophagy is actually a pretty easy category to hit. What was that Peaglitazone? Describe that one to me. So Peaglitazone is a really interesting drug. It is sold as a diabetic drug. What it is is a P-A-R-R gamma activator.

12:33What is that we ask? So it basically controls glucose metabolism. But it also has some alpha activity. What it does is several things. So number one, it lowers your glucose levels. Number two in your mitochondria, it activates your PCG1 alpha, which is really quite useful. One of the most important things I think that it does is it actually mobilizes your visceral fat. So if you are getting older and your visceral fat is building up, that's actually extremely bad for you. It's a bad sign of near death. So what Peaglitazone does is it mobilizes your visceral fat, moves it into subcutaneous compartments where number one, you look more youthful, but in fact, you're reducing constant death. So Peaglitazone is just an amazing, amazing drug. Did you say that Peaglitazone would trump metformin when it comes to a lot of these autophagy and endormodulating mechanisms? I would actually. Yeah. Is it a new drug? Do a lot of people know about this? No, it's not a new drug at all.

13:34Some people don't like it because it will put an extra pound on you. So if you're fat, you get a with-fatter, but if you are thin, it doesn't really do that. And it's a few other cool things up its sleeve. For example, it activates cloth, though. Very few things do that. And that's sort of like a cool thing that it does. And because one of the other things is because it reduces glucose, it actually also inhibits AGE formation. So advanced glycation and production. So it hits many, many reasons or categories of AGE. What's the mechanism of action via which you would gain fat? Is it sort of mucking around you through the RPA or alpha activity? So basically your body has a choice. Am I going to use fat, or am I going to use glucose? Oh, I see. So you're burning more glucose and thus you're dipping into less of your fat source. That is correct. But what it does do to the fat is it redistributes it.

14:35Okay. So I also mentioned that with Pia Glittazone, it can upregulate the cloth, though pathways. I've talked about cloth a little bit on the show, but can you explain why that would be beneficial? So to be perfectly honest, we don't exactly know what clotho does, but it's demonstrated that at least in kidney cells, if you have a plethora of it around your cells, you do significantly better. A lot of people are trying to figure out exactly why that is. Everyone's trying to upregulate your clotho. In terms of actual specific cellular mechanisms, we don't really know yet. It has an effect on cognition, too, doesn't it? It does. It has positive effects everywhere. The highest levels are in your kidney, but it does. It gets everywhere. And there's an absolute correlation between higher levels and just cellular health. But again, in terms of absolute specific mechanisms in the action we don't know. Yeah. When I interviewed Dr. Diel Kahn a few months ago, he was even looking into gene therapy, I think by the company Mini Circle for clotho, that I don't know if it's been approved

15:37or you've been released yet. But apparently that's one of the gene therapy targets that should be rolling out, I would imagine, next year for clotho. What do you think about that whole realm of gene therapy? I have to say I'm a little skeptical. I like the idea that we can titrate medications or titrate the input of things because we don't actually know if, you know, sometimes too much of a good thing is not necessarily good. And once you put something in your genetic makeup, there's no taking it back. Yeah. Unless you use the reversible antibiotic, which apparently can do us. Well, so they say, right? But you know, Liz Parrish is very much into gene therapy. And I think it does have a lot of good things about it. As for myself and as for patients that I speak with, I think we're not quite ready for that yet, which is why I look for pharmaceuticals. They're known, they're trusted. We know what the half life is. You can either give it or not give it, titrate accordingly. I think it's a little bit safer.

16:38Right. The difficulty of the approval process automatically introduces a bit of a gating and vetting mechanism with a pharmaceutical. That's for sure. Oh, that was, yeah. Okay. So, your sauna in a suitcase, you can pack your sauna in a suitcase, get to your hotel or your traveling. You want to get the benefits of let's say, you know, the heat shock proteins and the other things that sauna does for you. What's your drug of choice? Oh, so this is a great one. I love this one. So this is a drug called Cellbacks, S-E-L-B-E-X. And it's been FDA approved in Japan for drug induced gastritis. And oddly enough, it up, it up regulates heat shock proteins. And that's pretty much all it does. So it's really remarkable because there have been some studies in early Alzheimer's demonstrating that if you are on Cellbacks, you just do significantly better because Alzheimer's is a disease of misfolding of proteins. And if you can refold them, you're just going to do significantly better.

17:43Therefore, on top of not getting drug induced gastritis from all the drugs that I'm on, I am readily regulating all of my heat shock proteins. Oh, so these other drugs, well, explain what drugs are. Drug induced gastritis is because you make a good point. If you're using all these things, there might be effects on your gastrointestinal system that you want to avoid. No, correct. So anyone that takes a variety of medications knows that sometimes people say, oh, it just doesn't sit in my stomach well, right? Because it does it goes to a stomach. It sits on the lining where it has to, so sort of, have these drugs absorbed. And sometimes that causes a bit of inflammation, which we call gastritis, right? Because it's in the gastric area. And that can be extremely annoying. People perceive it as heartburn, abdominal pain, et cetera. So this drug is specifically for drug induced gastritis, which I find horribly ironic, right? So I get to pop it into my pill stack, and it helps me in two regards. So is the mechanism of action by which it would inhibit gastritis based on the actual

18:45production of heat shock proteins? Or is that just kind of a bonus side effect that gives you the sauna without a sauna? It's the same effect based in two different issues. So but because about heat shock protein is going to help with protein creation and proteostasis, which is basically getting destroyed by the inflammatory process of drugs sitting in your stomach. So it's the same process in a different organ system. So when you see these studies out of Finland that show that regular use of a sauna, four to five times a week results in, particularly in men who are studied there, remarkable decrease in risk of dementia and Alzheimer's, is that the same heat shock protein like effect that cellbex assimilates? Absolutely. Absolutely. Because Alzheimer's is, as I said, it's a protein misfolding disease. That's what Amaloid is. And if you can refold these proteins, then you don't get as much cell dysfunction. And therefore the dementia is less pronounced or even reversed.

19:47So if you had a high genetic risk for some like Alzheimer's or dementia, maybe you didn't have access to a sauna, you couldn't afford a sauna, you're traveling and can't use a sauna or you're even intolerant to a sauna. Maybe you're claustrophobic or you freak out or you can't send heat or whatever, the cellbex could be a good choice. Oh, it absolutely is. And there are zero side effects, zero side effects. It is an incredible medication. And I would even say use it in addition to the sauna because there's no ramification of over-upregulating your heat shock proteins. Have you ever used it and because of the up-regulation of these heat shock proteins found that a sauna becomes more intense or uncomfortable or does it not cause anything like that? No, you would never know because it's not affecting the temperature of your body at all. I mean, obviously, heat shock proteins are being up-regulated because you are in an area that is fucked, right? By definition, that's what happens. Why does that happen? Because if you think about the molecular basis of proteins, when you heat them up, they

20:50lose their three-dimensional structure, right? They fall apart and then a shaperown has to come and put the molecule back together so that the protein does what it's supposed to do. But it's based on the stress of temperature, right? Cellbex isn't based on the stress of temperature. There's no temperature elevation whatsoever. It just up-regulates the shaperones. So you're not going to see any interaction between the two systems physically. You're only going to see it on a molecular basis. Let's talk ketones. The whole drinkable, edible ketone category has become very noisy. A lot of products marked into these ketones are not actually delivering ketones directly. They're delivering ketone free cursures that your body still has to convert first, which creates a very different experience physiologically and from a performance standpoint, a recovery standpoint, and all the reasons that you'd want to use ketones. My ketone of choice has become tecton, T-E-C-T-O-N.

21:50They use something called R3-H-B-G, which is technically bioidentical, D-beta hydroxybutyrate. That's a mouthful. Essentially the same ketone molecule your body naturally produces during ketosis. No precursor conversion, no ethanol byproduct, and in my experience a much cleaner and more stable effect compared to the other ketone products that have saturated the market. And what makes this stuff especially interesting is the science and the regulatory side. First of all, tecton's molecule is the first ketone ingredient recognized by the FTA as a new dietary ingredient. It's actually a very significant differentiator in a category that, frankly, lacks a lot of transparency and standardization. The founder's background has also caught my attention. The founder Mike Chesney spent decades in US Army Special Operations as a Greenbray combat medic. He began developing this ketone technology after dealing with a traumatic brain injury, a TBI himself. So this wasn't just built as another trendy supplement brand. Tecton came from a much deeper performance and recovery need.

22:53It gives me super clean cognitive support. They have different varieties. They have a very caffeine with Lyons main, with 5HGP, and it tastes great, single shot, not get back. And you basically drink yourself into ketosis, which is pretty handy, especially for things like my morning fast workouts or going out to eat, not wanting a raging appetite when I get to the restaurant. You can go to tectonketones.com. T-E-C-T-O-N. Tectonketones.com slash Ben. And use code Ben at checkout for a whopping 16% off your first order. That's tectonketones.com slash Ben. Drinkable ketones use code Ben for 16% off today. I remember kind of like, I heard this about bone broth, but then I also heard about this stuff that it brings back the dead or something to that effect. Like bone broth brings back the dead. So I heard that also about this stuff called black seed oil. And it's like this mystery in the whole supplements industry, but it goes way back.

23:55And it has a ton of just like ancestral wisdom and modern research behind it. And what I didn't know about black seed oil that I recently found out is that it helps with cortisol management and stress based on recent research. So there's this little capsule that has black seed in it. Some people don't like the taste of black seed oil. You can swallow this capsule and might even taste it. But it's called a thymocwin. Thymocwin has been clinically studied for its ability to support healthy cortisol levels and help your body adapt to everyday stress. And then you just get the host of other benefits for the immune system or antioxidation, et cetera. That you get from black seed oil because that's what thymocwin has in it. Now what sets this apart from other black seed oils is it's the only black seed oil products in the market that meets US pharmacopia guidelines, which is a significant differentiator in a category where quality varies dramatically. This stuff has been proven to have the exact high quality, well treated black seed oil that you're looking for to help out with sleep quality with mood, energy, mental clarity, recovery,

24:58overall well being. I'm actually doing a podcast on black seed oil too. I just think it's so interesting. I made it my podcast with the same guy that makes this thymocwin stuff. Dr. Michael Murray, one of the most respected names in natural medicine. He spent four decades researching evidence based approaches to health. He's written over 40 books and he's a fan of this thymocwin also. So if you want to check it out, you can go to his website, drmeri.com. The OC TORMURRAY.com slash Ben and use 25% off code Ben25 at checkout. That's drmeri MURRAY.com slash Ben and used to Ben25 at checkout. The product is called thymocwin. Arguably if you had up regulated heat shock protein density due to cellbex use, you would be able to withstand heat a little bit better. If your friends had challenged you to see who can last the longest time in a sweat lodge, that might be your illegal performance enhancing drug of choice.

26:01I don't know if that's true. Feel free to try it. Because I don't think that you were on risk. I don't know. I don't think you can perceive that your proteins are unfolding. Well, I was more referring to the fact that I believe one one effect of higher number of heat shock proteins would be increased ability to be able to withstand temperature stress. I don't know why people get up and leave the sauna. Is it dehydration? Is it electrolite deficiency? Is it just an elevated temperature that's causing an inflammatory process? I actually don't know what causes people to get up and leave. I don't think that you can actually physically sense your proteins unfolding because that would be pretty damn impressive. Yeah, that's a good point. You don't have some Jedi skills. I think you need to know what to do it. You can either be hydrated, drink a lot of electrolites, take an anti-inflammatory and then I bet you can do it. Yeah. I bet one of the reasons people get out of the sauna is very similar to the so-called

27:04central governor mechanism that causes people in say an Iron Man triathlon or marathon to bong even when adequate carbohydrates are present. The brain shuts down the body because it perceives stress that could in some way become pretty deleterious. You've been going for eight hours now. You better just stop and you get central nervous system fatigue due to that central governor. Tim Dopes, I think, has done some writing on this. I think probably that's one of the reasons people tap out in the sauna. Anyway, so selbex, that's an interesting one. You just mentioned inflammation. I know there's a lot of anti-inflammatories out there. There's also a lot of protocols that people do to lower inflammation, such as cold therapy or a red light therapy or something like that. A low would you say from a recovery or an anti-inflammatory or even like an oxidative stress reduction type of strategy would be pharmaceutical?

28:06That's a good question. The best one is going to be one that no one's ever going to take. Well, I take it. Hydrolyzing. Hydrolyzing. You're going to love this one. Hydrolyzing is a medication that people would give you if you walked into the emergency room with very elevated blood pressure. It is an arterial vasodialator. So basically, it will emergently drop your blood pressure. Therefore, it takes a while to build up into your system to actually be able to take it safely. A lot of people are... Are we talking about more powerful than something like Viagra or Sildenafil? So that is a completely different drug class and we can get those. The interesting thing about hydrolyzing is the hydrazine molecule aspect of it. In the reason I take it is severalfold. So number one, it is a very potent, free radical scavenger in terms of free radicalized oxygen,

29:10but it is also one of the most potent reactive nitrogen scavengers. By blocking those pathways, you're going to block basically a lot of the inflammatory processes. So that's kind of really cool. The other thing the hydrolyzing or the hydrazine molecule does, one of the most powerful trans-blicosolating agents. So if you eat glucose, and I'm sure you doubt, but I'm a junk food junkie, when you eat glucose, it is attracted to very specific amino acids and nucleic acids. And when it sits on it, it becomes something called an AGE, which is an advanced glycation and product. So the glucose that's there, and it's like six non-enzymatic steps, the first three are reversible and the last three are not. And the idea is during the period that it's reversible, if you put a molecule that's more attractive to the glucose, it'll jump ship and then you just rescue your tissues. So the hydrazine molecule is extremely attractive to glucose molecule.

30:15So it falls under the trans-blicosolating category. And it's been demonstrated that if you take hydrolyzing and you load up with glucose, the hydrolyzing molecule bonds to the glucose and you can trace it out of your urine and you just sort of avoid it a whole glucose load. So why'd you say nobody's ever going to take it? Because it takes a long time to build a tolerance up without killing your blood pressure. Oh, so you're going to get dizzy, all the things that would happen if you kind of open up the fire hoses too much. So it's a bit like being able to build up toxins in your body. So when I first started, I took five milligrams and thought I was going to die. My blood pressure was 60 over 40 and I thought, oh, this is dumb as that. Oh my gosh. So then I went down to two and a half milligrams, built up. And over the course of three years, I can now take 100 milligrams with no effect. Wow. When I down 100 milligrams of hydrolyzing and I take it now with meals, it's a fantastic

31:20transglycosylating agent and reduces inflammatory processes. You would take it with any meal that contains an appreciable amount of glucose. Yep. Okay. Interesting. Is there a brand name for hydrolyzing? That's the generic name. It is so old and so dirt cheap. I'm sure there are a million names for it. Okay. Got it. So that's super interesting because a lot of people talk about the bill of advanced glycation end products or ages as a primary contributor to the aging process, to skin, hair, nail degradation, et cetera. And this is something that could potentially, especially for someone eating glucose and carbohydrates, put the brakes up. Oh, 100%. In fact, I have a six to seven step methodology for blocking the effects of glucose. I mean, you can block the absorption. You can block gluconeogenesis. You can block the formation of sorbitol.

32:21You can block AGE production. You can sponge up extra AGEs. You can pee out extra glucose. In fact, that's probably a good time to talk about the flosin category. These are fat. Flosins. Okay. A group of drugs, I call them the flosin family. And it's canagal flosin, dubagal flosin, impangal flosin, there's a bunch of them. And they are sodium glucose reuptake inhibitors. And the way this works is that your body, your kidneys, filter out most of the glucose floating around in your basketball. Right. I mean, it works backwards at what you would think. So the body takes the glucose out. It sits in your kidneys and you reuptake it back into your vasculature. Right. So in a fact, you're not usually dumping a whole lot of glucose. But if you block those receptors, you just pee out a ton of glucose. I was going to say, if you did want to get insurance or wanted to get screened for something,

33:22some of these drugs would potentially raise an eyebrow. Some of them I think you were pre-diabetic or diabetic without amount of glucose in your urine. Well, I will tell you that, yeah, if you're going to take any lab studies for real, you have to be off this, all of this stuff because it just, yeah, it'll, it'll, it'll look pretty damn funny. The other thing is I don't get any of these drugs from the United States because if anyone saw that what I was on, they would think I was a 100 year old diabetic hypertensive, someone dying of cancer. You know, these are serious drugs. Yeah. Is that safe to order these drugs? In merit overseas versions, do you have some kind of a vetting mechanism that you use? Or something like that? So I do. I do. There's a particular website. I went through a variety of websites to test. And what you do is you see sort of what brands are on this particular website. You chuck for their authenticity, safety, who makes them, who, you know, yeah, there's a whole series of, you know, sort of things that I look at to determine what's valid and what's not valid.

34:23I think in the United States, we become very centric such that we think that only things made here are reasonable. And in fact, you know, there's a whole, you know, globe out there of people taking medications and they are perfectly safe. If you check them, you know, accordingly. Yeah. Well, obviously, since you're a licensed medical physician in the US, I don't know if you're able to share or not, but you said there's a website. Are you able to share the website or is that allowed? I can. I have the warning that if people order this stuff and they use it, you know, I, I'm not their physician. So I don't want to be responsible for anyone killing themselves by accident because honestly, this, these are real guns. And someone that knows something should be keeping, keeping a watch out for these people. Okay. All right. I'll put it in the show notes of vengreenfieldlife.com slash pharma hacks. Sandy will, will email me this hidden secret website where you can, you can get your hands on this kind of stuff. You mentioned when we were talking about, not hydrozene. Actually, I think it was hydrozene.

35:25One of the drops of blood pressure can cause some vasodilation that acts differently than a phosphodiesterase inhibitor like a cell dinephil. What did you mean when you were talking about that? Is there something else that you would use in that category that would be beneficial for something beyond, say, direct health dysfunction? So, so the answer is yes. Those are phosphodiesterase inhibitors. That's the class of medication that you're looking at. And I take something called pentoxophylline. Pentoxophylline. Toxophylline. Okay. Question therefore is, well, why? Why would you do this? And I do it for several reasons. So the first reason is that it increases microvascular, right? Blood flow to microvascular. So it decreases the viscosity of your blood. It makes blood cells themselves more deformable. So as you get older and you get capillary death in the, in sort of like the distal aspects

36:27of your vascular tree, which is why people have, you know, dysfunction in various areas, this increases oxygenation to the tissues. So that's incredibly useful. As well, it inhibits glycation. So this is yet another AGE inhibitor. So that's quite useful. And it's also really good for your mitochondria. It's a PCG1 alpha activator. And it's an NRF2 activator. So good for microvascular. Raid for your mitochondria and decreases glycation issues. As far as I'm concerned, like that's a win-win. No, if you're co-consuming a phosphodiesterase inhibitor with something like hydrolyzine, I would imagine you'd be even more careful because you're going to have two different pathways for dropping blood pressure. That is correct. Okay, so you worked your way up with both. So what I do is if you look at the recommended dose for any of these medications, it's based on people with pathology, right?

37:27So as an example, this one will say 400 milligrams three times a day. Well, I don't actually have any pathology, so I'll take 400 milligrams once a day, based out from the hydrolyzine, right? Because the indications and the dose are just entirely different for pathology versus longevity. And how much do you think pharmacogenetics plays a role in this as well? Because I know that now it's pretty easy to get a pharmacogenetic profile. And it's often included with many of these DNA tests. But do you think there's a pretty high variation from person to person in terms of the CYP activity or anything else that would determine how hard something like this or soft it might hit someone? So you can either, I mean, yes, those tests are extremely useful. On the other hand, you can do what we call the cheat test, right? So as an example, if you ask someone if they consumed alcohol, they go, oh, I can't do that. I don't metabolize it very well, or I get hungover really easily.

38:27Clearly, you can look, you know what their genetics are, right? Their coffee makes me jittery, yeah. Or so all of these enzymes and genetic pathways that you're talking about, we use to metabolize everything else as well. So you can sort of guess if you don't want to get the genetic testing. On the other hand, it's sort of fun and it's interesting to use, but I will tell you that most people, 90-some percent of the people are all the same. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I actually want to talk about the brain here for a second because if you look at a lot of these popular neutropics out there, you'll find lithium in many of them anywhere from I noticed about five to a maximum of 25 milligrams of lithium in some of these compounds for the research that's been done on lithium as far as brain optimization, delaying cognitive aging, et cetera. And I remember you brought up lithium when I was sitting with you at that conference one day. You mentioned doses of like I think 75 to 150 milligrams, which is at least four times

39:32what you'll find in the highest dose of any of these popular neutropics out there. So what's the deal with lithium? And in particular, using a higher dose via a pharmaceutical versus these almost like fairy dust that doses you'll find in many neutropics. Excellent question. Excellent question. So lithium is extremely interesting and it came to my attention because I was looking at halomeres and all the enzymes around telomeres. So telomerase, and tert, and tera, and all of those things. And it turns out, so most people that think about lithium, think about people that are bipolar, right? And if you are bipolar and you are put on lithium, that's what most of the studies are. But let me back up. If you are bipolar, your telomeres are statistically significantly shorter than a standard person's telomeres. There's our. If someone has been on lithium for greater than two years with bipolar disease, their telomeres are significantly longer than an average person. Do you say to yourself, well, what's going on here?

40:35Right? Unfortunately, we don't have any studies of normal people on significant doses of lithium because why would they? So we don't really know what the effects are. However, what we can know is that people in areas where there's higher lithium in foods or in water, et cetera, there's a decrease in all cause morbidity and mortality, all cause, right? So it just demonstrates that it's a useful ion. And it turns out that it's considered essential now, one milligram per day, which is pretty pathetic. It's very, very low. So what does lithium do? Well, it turns out it competes with the magnesium receptors. You know, one of the more concerning trends in modern nutrition is how much ultra-processed food kids are exposed to from shockingly a very young age when you actually start looking at a lot of the products marketed towards children, especially vitamins, or as we say, vitamins, and protein products, many of them are loaded. As you probably have heard with sugar, artificial additives, dyes, ingredients that honestly

41:38look more like candy, the nutrition, yes, even the vitamins, that's a reason that higher stood out to me, higher, H-I-Y-A. They take a very different approach to kids' nutrition. For example, their chewable multivitamin includes a blend of organic fruits and vegetables, along with foundational nutrients like vitamin D, B12, C, zinc, folate, which are nutrients that support growth, cognition, concentration, overall development, and importantly, the ingredient profile on this stuff is super clean. It's non-GMO vegan, dairy free, allergy free, gelatin free, nut free, and third party tested for heavy metals and contaminants with what's called NSF certification in top, clean, label, project ratings. I've even tasted these things myself and they do taste pretty well. If I was a little kid, I would be manlining these. And now they have their new kids daily growth, plus protein, which is a total game changer. This is more than a protein shake for your kids.

42:39It's a purity-awarded, clean protein powder with added minerals and healthy fats that mixes right into water, smoothies, and more to support muscle development and cognition for your kids to fuel everything they've got going on, including muscle. So you have a little swollen child who flexes on all the other children. We've worked out a special deal with H-I-Y-A. You get 50% off your first order of any of their products. And to claim this deal, go to h-I-Y-A.com-slash-ben. H-A-Y-A-H-E-A-L-T-H-D-D-D-C-S-Ben, and get your kids the full-body support they deserve. All right, this is cool. This is new. I've never done this before, but for a very limited number of dates in 2026, I'm opening up my house to host you for a private chef catered VIP dinner. This is there that features one of the world's rarest breeds of beef. Monzo Piedmontese beef. That's the only full blood what's called fessone heard in North America from this 200-acre farm.

43:42In Eastern Washington, this is a rare chance to join us for one of our famed green-filled family dinners at my biohacking compound in North Idaho, my actual house. You're going to arrive at 5 p.m. for appetizers, biodynamic wine, close-up films, cooking demo with me and a professional chef. And then at 7 p.m., you sit down to this glamorous, steakhouse-esque meal unlike any other on the planet eating cuts more fine than expensive way to beef while you visit with the chef and me and my family over multiple courses of mouth-watering cuisine. After dinner, you get to go outside and gaze at the stars, do a red light bed session, use one of the many. Unique relaxation and pre-sleep biohacking tools on the property. At bedtime, you step into an E.M.F. free grounded, fully organic, circadian-optimized bedroom for one of the best sleeps of your life, and then you wake up to your own red light panel,

44:42wakefulness lamp, recovery boots, gorgeous view of the North Idaho prairie, and a chance to stroll down. The beautiful farm roads around the property. 9 a.m. you hit the road with a mindful of church memories, a satisfied stomach, an optimized, fully recovered body, and a new understanding of what it means to live a life, where cutting edge science meets ancestral wisdom right here on my property. Now, here is how you get one of these dinners. Anyone who gets from Monzo, a half or whole Pete Monties bowl automatically qualifies for a VIP dinner spot. All of your meat gets stored on the farm, it gets shipped frozen to you, and whatever portions you desire, the same way I do it with my cows from Monzo. So, whether you have a handkerchief or a steak, a ground beef, or a shank, or any other unique cut, you just let them know what you want to ship to your house. Let's say you're throwing a dinner party, so you don't have to keep the whole bowl or the half bowl in your actual freezer at home. So, once you use the link I'm about to give you to confirm your whole bowl or half bowl reservation, the Monzo team will reach out to you, and then they'll coordinate your dinner spot

45:46at my house between now and December 2026. So, to reserve your Monzo beef allocation and your spot and get all the other details for this, go to bengreenfieldlife.com slash VIP dinner. Obviously, this one has very limited slots, and I'm personally curating and reviewing everyone who applies to make sure that you're a fit, but bengreenfieldlife.com slash VIP dinner is where you can apply. Here we go. So, they sort of replace it. So, if you get super high dose, it's 600 to 900 milligrams. You start seeing sort of pathological issues. Usually, 300 you do. So, that's a fairly safe dose, right? So, the idea is if you want to maximize your lithium with decreasing side effects, I decided on 75 to 150 just based on sort of pharmacodynamics. That's what a person can handle. They are emotionally stable with no side effects profile. Do you think that if you were emotionally unstable or you dealt with anxiety,

46:52heat if you were bipolar issues with maybe like OCD or ADA, D.H.I. tendencies, etc. That a higher dose of lithium would be noticeable in terms of modulating some of that? Well, 100%, 100%, in fact, I mean, that sounds terrible. So, but I have two teenage daughters, one's 18 or ones 20, and they were going bit of stress going to college, you know, all sorts of family stresses, and they were really having challenges. I'm like, what the hell? So, I gave them 75 milligrams of lithium a day, and I have to tell you, they each told me that takes your stress and turns it down by like 25%. Right? No cognitive change, just Palmer. No rash decisions, very stable. I will tell you that I tend to be a very calm person myself, but I've had a lot of very sort of horrible things happen in my life, it was the last year, and I think that I have managed them better just being on a bit of lithium.

47:56Lithium in the lunch box for the teenage college students. You know, after you record that is the lithium is the only thing of these pharmaceuticals we've discussed that I actually implemented after talking with you. I was actually waiting to kind of experiment, you know, as a little bit of a relentless biohacker myself with some of these others until after I'd picked your brain a bit more. We talked enough about lithium at that conference, to where I actually ordered it from the source you recommended, and started on 75 to 150, actually up to my dosage about two weeks ago. Now, I noticed nothing. I think, and I also have a very low stress life, very low stress. Right, I've been in charge of my own schedule, I work from home, I live out in the forest, I've got access to nature, I got a wonderful family, I have an amazing team around me, and you know, maybe if I were more stressed, and I also haven't had a hefty travel about or anything like that during which I could potentially try it in a more stressful scenario.

48:57But I did try it not only due to the potential for stress modulation, again, I didn't notice much, but also because it just seems to have a lot of other benefits for just long-term cognitive health. Oh, absolutely. And just briefly, right? So other little side things that it does, which I think is really cool. So in your mitochondria, it actually controls your mitochondrial permeability transition, or for people that don't know what that is, there's little pores in your mitochondria. They go from the outside of the mitochondria all the way to the inside, and this pore flickers when you are young, like a little pup off of that, then when you are older, it opens more regularly and toxic items from your mitochondria, especially cytochrom C, go out into the cell and it actually precipitates cell death. And lithium is one of the things that controls that pore. So that's really amazing. It's also extremely good for autophagy, which we know and love. And the last thing is we've found that it's extremely good for stem cell health,

50:03as well as osteoblastic health. So better bounds, better stem cells all over, especially neurogenesis, nerves love it, and gets to the blood brain barrier, obviously, which is why it's sort of a neurotropic. So a lot of positive aspects without a whole lot of negative stuff. I'm actually going to mention that to my wife, because I actually have a crap ton of lithium, my assistant who I had at order, it seemed to think I needed to store it in a bunker for a while, but my wife actually has a high risk for osteoporosis. So I may talk with my wife later on about the osteoblastic activity, and see if she wants to try it. Now you mentioned that it might interfere with magnesium in some manner. I think you said in my block receptors, would you make a case for increasing magnesium consumption if you were on lithium? Well, you don't want a full war, right? So basically, you would think that if you look at the molecules themselves, they're not going to compete those ridiculous, but they actually do. So this is why higher doses of lithium will cause issues, right? Because then you've been magnesium deficiency. That being said, is most people are magnesium deficient to

51:07start with, which is why the magnesium supplement companies are doing so well. What I would recommend, however, is if you are low in magnesium and you want to supplement, go with something that crosses the blood brain barrier so that your neurons and such will not become magnesium deficient. Plus, magnesium 3 and 8 is demonstrated to increase plasticity of the hippocampus. So theoretically, it will make you smarter and give you better memories. Right. So magnesium 3 and 8 would be the choice. I use the stuff by optimizers, the magnesium breakthroughs, like seven different forms, including 3 and 8. So that's a good one. I think good brand if you want to cover your bases with magnesium. So we mentioned one, two, three, four, five, six different pharmaceuticals at this point. And I will take notes for everybody who's trying to seriously write and figure out how to spell these things. I'll put it all at bengreenfieldlife.com slash pharma hacks. But it also begs the question, Sandy,

52:08what about the liver processing all this stuff? We talked about the gastrointestinal system and some of the things that could help with gastritis. But what about just like overall hepatotoxicity, increased liver enzymes, fibrosis, any of these issues that you might see when consuming a high number of pharmaceuticals? So actually a question. So again, this goes back to C or doctor. If you have normal liver enzymes, normal liver activity, you should be absolutely fine. If you do not, that's another question. And then by the way, C, C or doctor after you've had about 48 hours of non-difficult exercise because exercise will fabricate high liver enzymes on a lab test. So you want to kind of have a washout period from exercise, particularly eccentric muscle damaging exercise before that test, right? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. The other thing is that I mean, I've tested mine over and over and everything is always absolutely fine. But this also goes back to

53:09dose. If you are on a full therapeutic dose of all of these things, you may take a liver hit, which again is why I used decreased doses and then a very timed out schedule. When do I want to take what? How much? But again, see this falls into the how I'm an anesthesiologist and what I do for living. So just recommending these as a blanket suggestion for folks is a little bit dangerous. A true medical person needs to actually help plan what someone's going to take when and why and how much. Right. Big sat warning label on this podcast. A lot of people, and this is even a popular ingredient now in a plenty of hangover remedies. We'll say that something called DHM, dihydromaricetin can help to lower liver enzymes and assist with liver health, especially when taking pharmaceuticals, drinking alcohol, etc. Is that one that you've ever heard of? It's not a pharmaceutical. It's just like a over the counter. I love dihydromaricetin. That's one of my favorite.

54:13So, so dihydromaricetin. So I went through this whole like how to activate each of the sertuins independently. And we all take sertuin one activators. And so I was on this kick to find the three is, and of course the two that are decent are Hanochial and dihydromaricetin. Dihydromaricetin works because it so it basically it's cert three only, but what that does is it up regulates all of your mitochondria activities. So especially if you you know it's sold as a hangover remedy essentially. So alcohol will destroy your liver mitochondria and by up regulating them more quickly or having them be in a healthier state, you're just going to do better. So I'm a huge fan of dihydromaricetin. The caveat being of course is that all sertuin activators need enough NAD to be efficient because it's a necessary co-factor. Yeah, I because of the number of supplements that I take, the amount of exercise that I do, the fact that I do have a glass of wine or cocktail usually in about five days a week. And

55:19and now I'm using pharmaceuticals like lithium. I actually take a little bit of DHM every morning. I take about three DHM capsules from wevel up health. And then based on what you just carved about the sertuins, I actually use a lot of NAD too. I'm usually NAD or NRIV once a month. Yeah, NAD will catch. So let me go out there. Okay. I went on this huge circadian rhythm bench. Okay. And what I discovered was absolutely astounding because everyone every time you get a lecture on sleep, it's you know, avoid external stresses, light, food, exercise, etc. before you go to sleep. But as it turns out, there are two proteins that put you to sleep. There are two proteins that wake you up and there are two proteins that increase the oscillation of those cycles, right? And NAD and sertuin one are they sort of rule over all of your circadian rhythms, all of these. So NAD because it's circadian has a very short half-wave. So it controls your

56:22circadian rhythms and it's created in a circadian rhythm. So it's extremely important for circadian rhythms. So if you do a giant IV bolus dose, you're going to screw up your circadian rhythms for several days. So I do. That is interesting. The other interesting thing about it is if you take your NAD supplement at the wrong time, you can decrease the efficacy of your sertuin one supplement. So the best time to take it is actually mid afternoon, halfway between your light and dark cycle. To take NAD mid afternoon, halfway between your light and dark cycle and then take your sertuin at a separate time. No, you can take those together. But there was not even demonstrated, like sertuins, you know, the half-wave is a little bit longer. But to activate them usually takes about an hour or so. But if you're going to do an NAD either in an IV, which I don't like as a dose is too big, I like the I am actually. And then the orals are going to take half an hour or so to take effect. But if you want to sort of optimize both mid afternoon, mid light, mid light cycle.

57:25Yeah, it's never actually disrupted my sleep. I mean, I've done NAD IVs like an hour before bed before but I also tend to, and I don't know if you could comment on this, maybe it's a CYP thing, I process stuff pretty quickly. Like even though I don't, I could drink five cups of coffee and be fine. For me to even feel something like psilocybin, I usually have to take two and a half to three grams to actually put it to really kick in at all with noticeable effects. It seems like I need a mega dose of just about anything I use. Well, I think that you've up-regulated all of your metabolic enzymes is pretty high and that's why. Yeah, maybe all those pre-workout stimulants, I mainline it back in the bodybuilding days 24-7. You never know. Well, the other thing you do is you can come off of everything for like a week and then you can deregulate all of those enzymes because everything is on a feedback loop. Yeah, yeah. It's just a journey to a friend's. Yeah, that's true. For me, that's called camping or hunting. So the pharmaceuticals we've discussed so far,

58:31would you say those are kind of like the biggies? That's the core range of items that you would use to simulate a lot of these things people are doing for cold, heat, exercise, fasting, etc. Yeah, I mean, there's a few other things you can do, but those are the biggies. Okay, I have a question about you, you talk about, for example, mitochondrial proliferation or mitochondrial health. People often use peptides like let's say, Montsee, Repatailon, as cycles throughout the year to assist with something like that. How how equivocal would pharmaceuticals like this be to peptides? More powerful, less powerful, similar. So I think that depends on several things. So peptides, I'm sure your listeners are extremely educated, but I'll just put in my two cents worth here. Peptides work by sending messages to your DNA specifically to turn on the production of certain molecules. It's like asking for factory,

59:32I would like size X of this particular shoe. It's very specific. The problem is that the older you get, the cell may not be able to do that. Less building blocks for the factory. Exactly. So if you have very good factory, if your young peptides are amazing, if you're old and you're not on the cellular optimization program, they are less effective because basically you're trying to get an old factory to make something that it just can't make. So peptides are, I think, are a fantastic add-on once your cells have been optimized. So again, it just depends. So when you add a pharmaceuticals, so that pharmaceuticals will work, come hell or high water, peptides will only work under certain conditions. Are you still pretty into exosomes too? You gave me an exosome injection. You gave me an exosome IV at that conference. I always feel amazing when I get those. I love exosomes. I have what I call my longevity pyramid. There are things I do every day, things I do every week, and I inject exosomes every month, come hell or high water. You do injector or IV? Both. Okay. I didn't realize you could injections. I like intramuscular.

1:00:40You could put them anywhere you want. They're going to regenerate wherever you stick them. So I, if I have an injury, I'll stick it there. If I have an extra, I'll put it in my face. I've got some arthritic changes in my fingers. So I stab my fingers all the time. Otherwise, I'll just do big dump into my vein. That's what you get for real climbing. Have you ever tried an intranasalic? The most I've ever felt out of exosomes, like head clear as a bell for like two weeks was I did intranasal a full liel over the course of a day. And I slept well. It wasn't like I was jittery, but every morning I woke up with just a head as clear as a bell. So yeah, to the key to intranasal is that you just can't have a cold or have extra goo or use of vasoconstrictor because you want to just make sure the mucus membrane is nice and clear and empty and want to get it as far back as possible. So it gets to the pre-biform plate and through the mucus membrane into the vascular. So it absolutely works. It just doesn't work for everybody because some people have sinus issues, you know, when you're extra blah blah blah. But yeah, it's a

1:01:44no vasoconstrictor. So no nicotine gum when you're doing your exosomes spray. Exactly. Well, you think about nicotine by the way. Oh my gosh. So I know the huge fan. I've tried it several times and I have vomited my guts out. It is damn ugly. Yeah, I think your tolerance builds up pretty quickly, but that's usually the reaction for most people who try it for the first time or try it if you're not having used it for a while. So yeah, and definitely vasoconstrictives, which can be concerning for people if they've got things like high blood pressure or erectile dysfunction for sure. You obviously have been doing a lot since our last podcast. I interviewed you about your book, The Coffman Protocol. I think you re-route or updated or revised it even in the past five years since our podcast. But what's going on right now with the whole Coffman Protocol website or a new book on all the pharmaceuticals with the big red warning sign on them or anything like that. So you're right. So book one came out about five years ago. Book two came out about a year and a

1:02:47half ago, two years, and it's called aging solutions. And it was the next 28 over the counter agents with updates in terms of cellular processes. Hopefully it's equally entertaining because it has a lot of bad jokes in it. Yeah. Well, thanks for not sending it to me, by the way. Geez. All right. I promise I will nail you on. It's quite entertaining. But the idea is science, humor, information, good for everyone. I shied away from pharmaceuticals and I continued to, only that I'm really concerned that someone's not going to understand that this stuff is really powerful. So there will be no book on pharmaceuticals. What I am going to be doing, however, that starting this year is there will be Coffman Protocol seminars to teach physicians and honestly, anyone who wants to truly understand how the protocol works and then to be able to put it into clinics or into our own private use. We are working on a protocol supplements based on the seven tenants of aging such that it's easier to target and people don't have to take, you know,

1:03:5125, 30 different pills. Hopefully it will just be sort of what I think is important based in our sort of built into easy building blocks for people. I've now built something called Club Exosome with Steve McCain where people can fly to Vegas quarterly and get Exosome therapies. Which is a place where you often might need Exosomes? Yeah. It's true. What we do, we did it there because he's an ex-alumpic athlete and he had a lot of friends sort of that were beat up athletes. And then another good friend of ours is ex-circus sole and he's a big performer and he does a lot of breath work. He actually leads, can hold his breath underwater for like 23 minutes or something ungodly. And jeez, what's his name? Brandon Burkow. Burkow? Yeah. Interesting. Might be. It might be a good, a good interview for the podcast. He's really remarkable. I can send you his information. But anyway, so they're based out of Vegas and we figure that people would love to come to Vegas because it's an entertaining place to be. And

1:04:51so we do this thing quarterly and people fly in from around the globe. See a show, get their infusion and then off they go. And so this coming weekend is actually yet another club meeting because it's a club. It's not an intervention. I'm no one's physician. This is because that's the way it sort of works since it's not FDA approved exactly or able. So that's an interesting ongoing thing. And then you have a variety of side projects. So lots of stuff is going on. Yeah. Okay. Millie dollar question. The last time I interviewed you, I remember I'm pretty sure that you said, asked is anthem was your to be top best choice for the anti-aging supplement in your book that had the highest efficacy banks based on your ranking system. If I remember correctly, would you still say, asked is anthem is pretty high up there or has been beaten out by something else? In terms of numbers, it's been beaten out. But in terms of how much I love it, it's still it's still high up there. I couldn't live without it. I really couldn't. What beat it out? A few things

1:05:52Ficetin is extremely amazing. Firmating is up there. Gosh, there's so many of them now. Are they all are they all still kind of like listed and updated at the Kaufman Protocol website? Yes, they are. Everything is almost like that's Kaufman Protocol dot com. There's a master chart with all the numbers. And the other thing that we did is I had had an app once upon a time and didn't work because I picked the wrong developer as they sort of screwed up the coding. So what my brilliant daughter did is been recoded and updated. And so for the low cost of $299, my algorithm, after you answer a few basic questions, we'll tell you what supplements you should be on. That's what happens when you give your kids lithium folks. It's impressive. And now she's in college, you know, being whatever she is being, but she's spent all summer creating merch, upgrading the website, doing the app. It's just been remarkable. Incredible. Wow. Well, I'm going to link to our first podcast, which was equally as intriguing.

1:06:58If you're listening to Ben Greenfield Life dot com slash farm act, I'll link to all of the weird ways to spell all of these different hacks that Sandy mentioned. Proceed at your own risk, medical disclaimer, neither Sandy or I are giving out medical advice or prescriptive advice. This is all simply for informational purposes. So proceed at your own risk or benefit. So Sandy, thank you so much for coming on. It's always just super interesting chat with me. Oh, it's fun. I can't tell you how much I enjoy this.

1:07:58From sales of certain items, but the price is the same for you. And sometimes I even get to share a unique and somewhat significant discount with you. In some cases, I might also be an investor in a company I mentioned. I'm the founder, for example, of Keon LLC, the makers of Keon branded supplements in products, which I talk about quite a bit. Regardless of the relationship, if I post or talk about an affiliate link to a product, it is indeed something I personally use support. And with full authenticity and transparency, recommend in good conscience. I personally vet each and every product that I talk about. My first priority is providing valuable information and resources to you that help you positively optimize your mind, body, and spirit. And I'll only ever link to products or resources affiliate or otherwise that fit within this purpose. So there's your fancy legal disclaimer.