#BecauseMiami: Miami Police Shootout

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1:02Go to chime.com-slash-disclosures for details. This is not a preview of GTA 6 or the new Miami Vice Movie or a new bad boys sequel. This is shocking new footage. From the moments that Miami Police turned a crowded, win-wood street, late Friday night, early Saturday morning, just as the bars are closing at 3am, and they turned it into a Wild West style shooting gallery, killing two people, including social worker Evelyn Valdez, an

2:05innocent bystander, on her way home. After celebrating her 28th birthday with friends and family, Roy, you may remember we broke the story on this program. For the first time ever, we reported that the bullets that killed Evelyn Valdez was fired by a Miami Police Officer and that the only bullets fired that night about 10 or 11 rounds were entirely fired by Miami Police Officers and that this gunman that they were after, not even after. It was a 30-year-old guy named Norman Lindo who was involved in a scuffle inside this win-wood bar and it spilled out into the street. He held his firearm at his side. I think to try to de-escalate the fight maybe and then these police officers saw him and intervened not verbally, not physically, but with bullets. And only after he was lying dead on the ground, did they issue a verbal command, which you

3:07heard at the end of that video footage, which was, show me your hands. And let's just say he couldn't. He was dead and at the same time Evelyn Valdez was lying in the back of a car where she had been stuck in traffic in the back of this car and she was bleeding to death while city of Miami Police and city of Miami Fire Rescue let her lay there and die and bleed out where they just, I guess we're driving past her. They didn't really understand that there was kind of this second scene where she laid bleeding to death and really just a horrific tragic and it seems entirely avoidable scenario. Evelyn's family, we previously met her mother and her brother on this show. They have filed a federal wrongful death lawsuit against the city, against Miami Police Sergeant Javier Herbello and officer Dorian Acosta, a win-wood nightclub and their security

4:08company alleging excessive force by Miami cops, longstanding unconstitutional police practices, negligent nightclub security and an inadequate emergency medical response by the city. The gentlemen joining us now are Ray Roscoe and Angelo Martin. They are the attorneys who filed this federal lawsuit and are representing Evelyn's family. Gentlemen, thank you for being here. A lot of folks, whether they watch the video version of this program or are just listening to the audio, probably don't know what they just saw. So could you kind of walk us through that because I think it was really this vital piece of surveillance evidence, which I know didn't come quickly or easily to you guys. This happened last summer already. Can you please describe what it shows and how you think it helps you make this case? Yeah. So what you're seeing there in that video is basically the continuation of an altercation that began inside the club. You're looking at this side exit of the club that's referred to in the lawsuit as electric

5:11lady, also known as electric 23. And in the video, you'll see from that side, from the view of the side exit in that spotlight, you'll see an individual that's dressed in white, that's Mr. Norman Lindo. That was one of the individuals who was killed by police engaging in a physical tussle with another individual that we've identified as Santiago Urnaís. And what you see there is just some pushing and shoving ensuing. You'll see Norman Lindo doesn't indeed have a firearm, but it is tucked closely to his waistband. It looks like he's just sitting there trying to create space between him and the other individual who he's engaged with. And then the police at some point are alerted to the altercation. And prior to exchanging any sort of verbal commands or asking the subjects to ask, you know, separate or drop the firearm, as you mentioned, Billy, they resort to immediately opening fire on Mr. Lindo and subsequently killing him and then striking Evelyn Valdez

6:15in the back seat of that Mazda that you see positioned at the top of the frame there. So what do we see, Ray? You make some really compelling points and turns of phrase in your complaint about what we're witnessing with respect to not only how the officers react. Like Angela was saying, there was no effort according to the video or the audio, no effort to deescalate, no verbal commands, no effort to, yeah, like to say as Angela to drop your weapon or hands up or break it up or anything like that, they immediately resort or instantly appear to resort to deadly force within seconds of the tussle attracting their attention. And then as I mentioned at the top, only give a verbal order to a dead or dying man who has been shot, I assume multiple times lying on the ground, but it's also the way that they open fire. I refer to it as, you know, bad boys, Miami vice GTA wild west. Can you describe what we're looking at there with respect to how they open fire and how

7:19that comports or fails to comport with appropriate procedure and training? Absolutely. Everything that they did, obviously, you know, is against that only common sense, but police practices and procedures going back for a very long time, not just in the city of Miami, but in many other locations. And obviously what you're seeing in the video is a parallel parked car and you're seeing Evelyn's vehicle, which is the red mod that she's in the back seat right behind the passenger. They shoot from a range where he's in behind that parked car and they start shooting there and they shoot all the way almost 180 degrees of an angle, which is really just horrifying for somebody who is, you know, somebody, anybody, any civilian who goes out to win wood, anybody who goes out on a Saturday night in Miami or Friday night in Miami, though, I mean, it makes us all afraid for our families because when you're shooting a barrage of bullets, 10 or 11, and you can hear it loudly in the video, you're endagering the lives of not

8:22just the two people in the altercation, which again are not engaged in lethal force, but you're endagering the lives of everybody around, including those passengers in the vehicle, the civilians who are coming out of the club, everybody walking on the street, people walking on the other side of the street. Which includes other law enforcement officers as well. Which indeed, that's correct. That's correct. They're endagering everybody. That's totally contrary to their policies and procedures. They know it. They should have tried to de-escalate. They didn't do that. And by the way, you know, it was not just Lindo and Evelyn that was shot. There was also the club manager, John Fortini. There was a third officer at the entrance to the club, not exactly near where they were around the corner, but he heard the shots. He took his weapon out and he accidentally discharged his weapon into the hand of the club manager. And then one of the bullets that went into the Mazda, there was two bullets that went into the Mazda, one of those bullets grazed Nina, who was the passenger friend of Evelyn's in the front seat.

9:24So it was four victims then, two fatal. Yeah, Roya, so you threw your arms up there. Yeah, I think it's clear. There was three police officers who fired their weapons here, one of whom had this accidental discharge into the hand of the club manager. That's just how I will say needlessly chaotic this all was, but what you heard described there by Ray was this 180 degree, nearly 180 degree range of fire, effectively creating a kill zone on a busy street at closing time, which means that everybody in all of these clubs and bars and restaurants in Winhwood, a very popular part of town here for nightlife on a late Friday early Saturday morning are being pushed out onto the street because if they can't sell liquor anymore, they don't want you in their business. It's don't have to go home, but can stay here. It's fluorescent lights on.

10:24Everybody out, we can't generate revenue anymore. We don't want you here. So everybody's being pushed out on the street. You've got bumper to bumper traffic people trying to get, you know, escape the neighborhood and get home. The only good news about any of this is that more people weren't hit, injured or killed. That's the only miracle or good news out of any of this. And I want to know guys, what is it? You know, you make certain allegations in this complaint. I think the excessive force allegation kind of speaks for itself, but you talk about long standing on constitutional police practices. Can you get into that a little bit? Again, I've been in Miami a while. So I think I understand it, but I want to make sure everybody understands what you mean. Our complaint only addressed this century. So from 2004 and we, you know, there were during that time period, there were two federal Department of Justice investigations of the city of Miami involving the use of excessive force by police officers. Both were involved several shootings often by the same officers over a short periods of

11:27time that resulted in the killing and death of innocent people, innocent bystanders or people that were engaged in non-lethal force. The first DOJ investigation resulted in Miami changing some of their policies and procedures trying to make some systemic change, but there was no punitive action taken. The second DOJ investigation, which concluded in 2016, they did actually conclude that the Miami Police Department, sorry, the city of Miami Police Department engages in a pattern and practice of excessive force, including several of the issues were innocent bystanders being hit, finding buildings where there were bullets in the walls, finding vehicles where there were bullets in the walls. You know, there's obviously the 2011 shooting in Miami Beach is outside of the city of Miami, but it was various examples like that where there was just no people, there was not crossfire, there was not gunfire being shot by anybody else, but the police harming people and property

12:30and killing people, it is in bystanders. And so that's a continuing problem as we try to show in the complaint. That agreement ended, they had a subject to a consent agreement where the city had to be subject to review and oversight from 2016 to about 2021, but that ended and we continue to see as our complaint shows, we continue to see that same pattern and practice continuing to this day, including with what happened with unfortunately with Evelyn. So it's really something that hasn't changed, the city needs systemic change and it's not happening. The last bit here, an inadequate emergency medical response by the city for people who have listened to this show before follow me on social media. I have covered this ad nausum. There are probably few places in the world that if you have to be God forbid, the victim of a trauma or a violent crime or car accident, whatever it may be, win wood is actually a pretty

13:31good place for that to happen because of its proximity to one of the preeminent trauma centers in the world, the writer trauma center at Jackson Memorial Hospital. That hour of the morning on a Saturday, it's about a three minute ambulance ride, probably from the scene of this shooting where Evelyn was hit for her to get world class trauma care, but that didn't happen. Okay, how much time did it take from the time of the shooting to the time that Evelyn showed up at the front door of an emergency room that is about three minutes away from the scene? Yeah, so the call went out from one of the occupants in the vehicle at 306 AM. That was the 911 call that went out to dispatch requesting assistance at that location where the vehicle finally came to rest, which was about a half a block away from the original

14:31shooting location. So from that moment to the call went out to the moment that she was received by Jackson Memorial Hospital, writer trauma center was 34 minutes, 306 to 340 AM, was the time in which she sat in the back of that vehicle and was ready for transport. Unbelievable. What the hell was happening and how do you guys come to claim that it's negligence on the part of the city? Well, somebody's got to be responsible here, right? You know, we've looked into, we have various questions about whether the dispatch personnel and the dispatch office was properly resource that evening. It appears that they were running a skeleton crew. Does that have something to do with the inadequate response time? We're not there yet, but there are certain things that we're looking into. But the negligence speaks for itself here. 34 minutes to transport an individual who's suffering in the backseat of the vehicle from

15:33a fatal gunshot wound, the distance of maybe 1.3 miles. And as you remark, that's about a three minute drive at that time of night. There's just, there's just no other logical conclusion to draw from these facts other than somebody, somebody was negligent here. All right. I'm going to give you the last word. I want to ask you about this accountability. Okay. This happened 14 months ago. It was June 14, 2025. We have a city of Miami Police Department, internal affairs. We have the Florida Department of Law Enforcement who tends to investigate officer-involved shootings. We have the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office, Catherine Fernandez Rundle, who has been in office since Janet Reno left for the Clinton administration in what, 1993? 94. So 30 some odd years she's been in office. She has never charged a law enforcement officer for an unduty killing, not once in that entire

16:35time. So I understand that there's been no conclusion. These officers were, as is the common practice in policy, were relieved of duty for a brief period of time, but that was a very brief period of time, like extremely brief period of time. They were put right back on duty. One of them did get, I think, like, what they call desk duty or some modified form of duty, not back out on the street again. However, you've got all this video evidence. And I assume because they have more video evidence than you do, because there was a camera right there on the street, like a city or police, like surveillance, like flock style camera out there on the street, that nobody's seen that video evidence. So they've got more video evidence than we've got. And yet nobody's concluded a criminal or administrative investigation here, like what the hell's going on? And other than your civil action, when might there be some accountability or answers, at least from some governmental authority here about police officers who put at risk

17:39the lives of countless civilians and fellow law enforcement officers on the streets of Miami. That's the problem, Billy, is that they know they can get away with it, and they've been getting away with it for decades. The DOJ has mentioned this specific issue in its findings, both investigations in the past 20 years, saying that the investigations took too long, sometimes up to two to three years. And that obviously, as you know, they're never charged. In this case, it was a joke. These officers were back to work within 13 days. As far as we know, no discipline, but they were back to work with pay within 13 days, after a shooting that injured two and killed one innocent by standard. So they know they have this protective shield from the state attorney's office because they know the history. They know they're not going to get charged. And it's not just the DOJ that's concluded, made these conclusions. The Southern District of Florida, this court that we're in, has also concluded based

18:40on those DOJ investigations that the City of Miami Police Department has engaged in a pattern of practice of excessive force and involving shooting of innocent bystanders and shooting people who are using non-lethal force or involved in some non-lethal action. So outside of the courts, outside of our lawsuit, I don't see any other accountability. We've been asking for a year for the video from the City of Miami Police Department, which was right outside the club. They have not provided their body cam footage. They have not provided their entire record. All these providers, the police report that's almost 98% redacted. A few sentences were not redacted. We have nothing else to say. We've now filed a lawsuit. We've sent request for production. And they still haven't responded to those either. But we've been at it for almost a year and three months now. And they still have not provided one piece of evidence. And it's probably not a coincidence, Roy, that these so-called investigations take one, two, three years. It's roughly about probably about the statute of limitations that you would have legally

19:42to file a lawsuit. And it's hard to, you can't file a lawsuit frivolously. You have to have evidence. You have to have a cause of action. And if they're dragging out a so-called investigation and saying, oh, we can't release this evidence yet because it's part of an ongoing investigation, which is a legal exemption to Florida's public records laws, then they can drag it out to the point where you no longer have access to accountability or justice even via a civil case. And it's hard to say that, or refute your point, Ray, that the State Attorney's Office has sent a message of impunity to not only law enforcement officers, but everybody in the public sector, including public corruption, where there has just been no appetite to pursue substantive public corruption cases. And that sends a message to people in the public sector that you can get away with it, and I don't worry, you're not going to get charged by this State Attorney's Office. And at this point, I think I've read enough of her closeout memos to know in these types of cases that this is a conclusion in search of an investigation.

20:42So why can't they just copy and paste and do what they always do and let everybody move on with their lives? But I look forward to the outcome of that investigation. They're going to copy and paste the same language they do to clear these officers every time. I don't really know what the outcome of the administrative or IA investigation is going to be. I think that question was answered a year ago or 13 days after this incident when the officers were put back on duty. What I really look forward to though is the city of Miami's response in your litigation, which I understand is do this week. That's right. Yeah, so at least, you know, the slow wheels of justice will hopefully move forward in the federal case. I've no doubt that I've no doubt you'll be met with a with a motion to dismiss, but you can cross that bridge when you get there. And I hope you'll come back and update us on your search for justice here for Evelyn Valdez and her family. Absolutely. We'd love to. Thank you. Thanks to Ray Roscoe and Angelo Martin. Good luck, gentlemen. Thank you very much. It's Roy and I want to talk to you about blinds.

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24:51live where they say they do. Almost every single address that we checked was fraudulent. You can't take an oath and say something that's false, that's a crime. Roy you know that I go to a lot of public meetings, city commission meetings and participate a lot in this local government we have down here. So I'm rarely shocked by the shit that goes down at these meetings. But this coral gables meeting, so the city of coral gables is one of these municipalities, Miami-Dade County. It's actually where the University of Miami is located in the city of coral gables, not in the city of Miami. But it's known as like a wealthy enclave, but it's got a fair mix of people and it has another one of these real estate huckster mayors, like Francis Suarez.

25:52But this guy is Vince Lago. Billy Corbin. And this guy is all tied up in the same kind of Ponzi Pothalita overt corruption, particularly when it comes to the number one hustle in Miami, which is real estate development. And so they've got this building in a residential neighborhood that was previously home to a church. It now has a school there for autistic children, I think it is, Crystal Academy, and it is home to a historic like biblical garden. And they of course want to knock at the f*** down and they want to build even though it's only zoned because it's in a residential neighborhood for like a three story building. They want to build a nine story building and like a parking structure with like hundreds of parking spaces or something insane. And of course, it passed the commission, but not before it was discovered that numerous public speakers who swore under oath to tell the truth lied about their addresses to pretend

26:54that they were residents in the city of Coral Gables and neighbors around this development. They lied under oath apparently. And it like blew up at the meeting were a lawyer for some concerned residents who were against this boondoggle. He revealed in like this perimation moment, the PowerPoint presentation during public comment, they identified all of the speakers, all of these speakers who came in, some of them could barely speak English. They had to read their own addresses off of their cell phones as part of their prepared remarks. And then an enterprising resident who has lived in the community forever, Omar Packard, who saw briefly in that package from WPLG at the top. He figured out this whole scheme. Omar is joining us now. Omar, what was the first clue here? Was it that people didn't know their own addresses by heart that they kind of struggled to to pronounce the names of streets that they supple, the ble lived at?

27:55Was it that some of these addresses didn't exist? Was it some of these addresses were commercial? Not residential properties? What tipped you off that got you on this case and you unravel the mystery here and perhaps uncovered a crime of not only perjury, but there seems to be a guy who might be behind all of this who like organize this scheme. Thank you for having me on Billy and thank you for bringing attention to this matter. I think the first thing that just seemed odd to me was one individual. Her name was Alexis Santos. Her introduction to us was basically, I'm not from this area. I have nothing to do with this school. I'm actually from Kendall, but I love this project and I just came here to speak about it. It was like 11 o'clock on a Tuesday. Why would you waste your time coming to Coral Gables? I do. I do it right. I don't know. Yeah, and then it progressed. It progressed into, she collected letters of support. She collected 500 letters. And then towards the end, she even claimed to move to Coral Gables, which was a fake

29:00address, obviously. She moved there just to speak in support of this issue. So this is Roy, what we call astroturfing, which is like the astro, though. And that's exactly right. Astroturfing is basically it's a deceptive practice of disguising an orchestrated corporate or political, politically funded campaign as some spontaneous grassroots movement. Like these people all just decided to show up one morning to a city commission meeting and say more than anything, I want you to knock down this historic garden and build a giant building in the middle of my peaceful residential neighborhood, which literally nobody wants. But all of a sudden, there's all these supporters who come in to speak for it. And so Omar did the most brilliant thing. Tell us what you did Omar. So I basically started collecting the addresses and looking them up. And it was really quickly I found out that a lot of them didn't even exist or they were commercial buildings. But I decided to go to the ones that actually did exist. And yeah, every single address that I went to was fake.

30:01And it was really, it was really interesting because everybody that I met was so thankful to what I was doing. I mean, people even shook my hand or were like, thank you for your service. When Omar says they're fake, these are real addresses. It's just that the people who claimed under oath to live at these addresses aren't the people who are there. And I'm actually a montage of this of what Omar did here. My name is Aura Quintero and I live on 335, not very Avenue, apartment number five. Hi, my name is Daniel Silverman. I live in 325, not our Avenue, apartment five. And I do not know anyone by the name of Aura Quintero. My name is Anna Homan. I reside at 235, Ventia Avenue, apartment two, co-grables 33134. Aura Phiabeler, I live at 235, and Dela Avenue, apartment two. And I did not give Anna Homan permission to use my address. My name is Vanessa Salas. I live in 13, zero, zero, zero, zero. It's street number four.

31:04I'm the owner of these apartments. 13, zero, zero, zero, zero, straight apartment four. I'm not related to Vanessa Salas. I don't know who she is. My name is Young Kamala Margarita. I live in a 235 Antilla Avenue apartment 7. Just recently it was informed that someone is using this address where I live 235 Antilla apartment 7. His name is John Carlos Vercada and I do not recognize him at all. So my name is Carolope. I live at 291 of our Avenue here in the Gables. I live in 291 of our neighborhood Avenue. And I never see Lara Lopez. My name is Kevin Calcita. I reside at 1208 Southridge Street, but for my 18, 331334. This person never sees Kevin Calcita. Never sees him. My name is Alexis Santos and my address is 1300, once a León Boulevard apartment 308. I am a front desk associate for the building 1300 once a león. And there is no unit 308 in this building.

32:06These people are under oath. They raise their hand live in a commission meeting. It's on video and swore under the penalty of poetry that they would tell the truth. And then they proceeded to lie about where they lived just to make it seem like these were people who were stakeholders in this thing and supported. And so another thing you discovered Omar is that this isn't the only property development developer land use attorneys or lobbyists that these people have actually turned up for. Is that right? Yeah, it seems very prevalent. Anytime you look up a development project that's been struggling to show support, it seems like there's a big chance you'll see the same names. And that's just that's pretty crazy. That just seems like it's business as usual in Miami. Yeah, there's video Roy of them at other meetings at the county and other municipalities, the same people in other counties. In a well, no, in the county like in Miami, I mean, as opposed to like in Coral Gables, there are other commission meetings supporting other developments

33:06that are wildly unpopular and that nobody actually supports. So they perjured themselves multiple times. Well, it depends on whether or not there's different rules in terms of when you're under oath at a commission meeting, giving public comment and when you're not for planning and zoning items like this, you're under oath. But the thing is that they seem to be everywhere supporting unpopular development. Now here's the thing. They didn't just wake up in the morning and decide to go and lie and support some random unpopular development. Okay. Somebody is a pieed paper of perjury here and the attorney for, I guess, I don't know, Omar, is David Winker, the lawyer who made this perimace and S presentation at the Coral Gables, does he represent you? Who does he represent? Yeah, he represents the community, I would say. But yeah, he represents me as well. The community members who are against this scheme, right? Absolutely. Yes. So, so Winker alleges that there's this character by the name of Tim Heiman of community action consultants,

34:10right? And that this guy seems to be everywhere that these folks turn up to. Because obviously they didn't just make up these addresses, they're reading their public comments of support directly from a script from their phones. You can see in a very stilted, kind of forced, awkward way, not just because the language barrier, but because they don't actually really know or believe, I think what it is that they're saying. So tell me about what you know about community action consultants in this Tim Heiman guy and what he claims to do for a living. I don't know much. Basically every time we saw these people, we saw him there as well, which is kind of suspicious. And his LinkedIn, if you look at it, it seems like it's written in a way to nicely say what he's basically doing or what it seems he's doing. Right, that he organizes and galvanizes, communicates, approachable, right? Basically exactly what he doing. What is it? He brings balance to the force. He brings balance to the force. All worth it.

35:10That's what I suspect he might be on the dark side. But now finally, there is apparently according to the Coral Gables Police Department, a criminal investigation into this. I don't know if it's individual instances of perjury against these folks. Perhaps there's an under Florida statute. There's such a thing as an organized scheme to defraud. I don't know exactly what the charges might be or who the targets are, but it didn't start out that way. First thing that happened, Roy, is that Mayor Vince Lago, Billy Corbin, by the way, the reason I keep playing is that that is actually Vince Lago in an interview saying, I don't really have any other Vince Lago material I don't think or any other Vince Lago carts. But I will say this guy effectively defends the alleged fraud in the meeting. His knee jerk reaction is like, well, I don't think that this is a big deal. It's really awkward, Roy, because it's like, wait, you guys always make Hemman Hall and start counting the number of supporters and people foreign against something when they're at a meeting of publics.

36:11And Alvesin, it doesn't matter that they come up and they lie under oath. To you, this is a man who has told defamatory lies about me on other podcasts. Like this guy is a total corrupt ghoul. He's neck deep in the Rishi Kapoor business, Rishi Kapoor, who just the Ponzi Schema and real estate Huckster and Fraudster, who is now serving 11 years in federal prison. And this guy was had a Francis Suarez and Vince Lago on his payroll was paying him for one thing or another, whether it was legal or not, is still up for grabs. So this guy had just received honor about June 25th of this year, a donation to the tune of five figures from the developer out of Chicago, Phi Field, who wants the Schema prove that Vince Lago voted for. And within about a day of that, this Tim Heiminguy donated $500 to Vince Lago as well. And he sort of jumped right in to defend them, right Omar? Absolutely. It was ridiculous. It was like he was their attorney almost.

37:12Yes, Vince Lago was not there representing the people of Coral Gables. He's there representing who he always represents, which is the developers and the real estate hustlers. And I was told by a very, let's say, significant influential person from the real estate world who does business in Coral Gables, who says that you cannot get a project approved in Coral Gables unless you pay Vince Lago one way or another. And that could be through campaign donations. That could be through his private company, hiring him, quote unquote, to do work for you, whether it's a donation to a political committee of his, but Vince Lago has to get paid in order for you to get approved. And these guys did get approved. Three to one with one of the commissioners being absent, but they seem to have approved this based in no small part on lies or perjury, Omar. Isn't that right? So what happens now? Absolutely. I have no idea. It's hard to see this going well with so much, you know, with Lago controlling this to this degree.

38:12And even the, I mean, even the police, you saw how Houdak acted. Yeah, the chief chief Ed Houdak, by the way, a sports fans, you will recognize Ed Houdak because he has spent decades standing and running alongside the head coach of the Miami Hurricanes football program. You name the coach. He's been there. He's always kind of like their sergeant at arms. He's the guy that's always standing beside or behind them on the sideline or in post game interviews on the field. He is the long time police chief in the city of Coral Gables and he kind of embarrassed himself at that meeting by saying that this perjury wasn't a big deal. I just kind of like, it's like lying about your weight or your age. But perjury is perjury. It's not very good police work to downplay a crime, especially even if you don't intend to charge these folks, Roy, with perjury individually. The whole point is to say, well, you may have committed a crime and you need to cooperate with us if you don't want to get charged with that. So if he's out here publicly saying immediately, by the way, on the scene, which means incidentally, he should probably recuse himself and his department because he basically said we don't

39:17think their crimes a big deal. And now they're going to investigate it. It doesn't seem to be a very good look. Maybe you guys want to demand his recusal. I'm just going to start giving advice right now because there has to be some next steps here. You guys are going to have to sue or something to basically say that this was approved under some kind of fraudulent means potentially and all of a sudden now, the commissioners who voted for their downplaying whether or not they even listen to public comment. Yeah. That's crazy. Why even have commission meetings? Why vote? You might as well just be a monarch at this point in time if our voices don't matter at all. Spoiler alert. No more. I'm really listening to us at public comment. No, it's really good question. Why even have these why even have these public meetings at all? They don't give a shit, right? Omar best of luck to you. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. And thanks so much for the detective work here. Really amazing stuff. It's like I said, it's rare for me to watch a meeting and for my jaw to drop the way that it did here when David Winker made this presentation.

40:19Mm-hmm. Hopefully it makes a difference in something. Boy, that's what we always say here. You know, we also say, no, it's listening. Is that right, Roy? Well, no, it's listening, so. Cocaine's.