2943: Your Bulk Is Not Working! Here Are the 5 Signs You Are Doing It Wrong

0:00If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind, pop, mind, pop with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded health fitness and entertainment podcast in history approaching a half a billion total downloads. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode, we answered listeners questions. We picked four of them. From our Instagram page, Mind Pump Media, we answered them. This was after the intro. Today's intro was 62 minutes long. This is what we talk about. Muscle building and fat loss and diet and current events. Again, if you want to post a question that we can potentially pick, go to Instagram, Mind Pump Media. Another episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Paleo Valley. Today we talked about their protein. It's a bone broth protein, which means it's super easy to digest. It's also good for gut health. It's the best tasting protein powder I've ever had in my entire life. I'm not lying. It tastes so good. You got to try it. Head over there and try it out. Go to PaleoValley.com slash Mind Pump.

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2:08Here are the signs that what you're doing isn't working. If this is happening, let's fix it. Let's go. You get fat. It's a visible sign. Let's back up. Let's back up for a second. Doing it wrong. So let's back up for a second. So, uh, so, uh, they say explain what bolking is. And it's also being referred to as reverse dieting. Same thing, right? It's the attempt to eat in a calorie surplus or eat more than your body's burning with the goal being building muscle, uh, maybe balancing hormones, boosting metabolic rate. Maybe setting yourself up for a fat loss phase in the future. But the idea is ultimately, regardless of what the goal is, it can be hormone balancing, it can be better health, it could be better sleep, whatever. Uh, we're trying to build muscle and we're doing so with good strength training programming and we're eating in a calorie surplus. Now, bolking used to be something that only like hardcore bodybuilders or dudes like me when I was a kid that just wanted to gain weight. So skinny.

3:11We're the only ones that ever tried bolking nobody else. Yeah. The word bulk is a turn off to most people. In fact, that's why we say reverse dieting oftentimes because it's such a turn off. But the idea and the understanding and what it does for the body now has become so popular that you're seeing more and more people understand the benefit and attempt to move in this direction. And in my career, for all the time, I've been in the fitness industry, which is well over 20 years, I've seen more women now go on a bulk than ever before. That was almost never the case in the past. So, uh, but, um, and a lot of it has to do with fear or just not the right information around it. Yeah. Do you think that there is a tendency between the sexes? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think and to be more specific, the dude who feels really skinny has a tendency to overdo it for sure.

4:15Um, the everybody else tends to under do. In fact, one of the clear signs that your bulk isn't where it could be, or you reverse diet, you know, if we want to call it that, is it where it could be is you've lost weight. If you're losing weight on the scale and you're in a bulk, you're not eating nearly enough. Now, here's the, this is where it gets interesting. Some people would welcome that, right? They're going to go on a bulk because they need to speed up their metabolism. Let's say they want to build some muscle. They see the weight go down, which sometimes happens when you start to bump your calories a little bit, um, and you're working out a little harder as a result. And then people are like, this is awesome. This is exactly where I want to be because I was going to do a cut anyway afterwards. But I'm here to tell you you are not reaping the benefits, the maximum benefits of eating in a surplus. If you're losing weight, if you're losing weight, you're not eating enough. The weight shouldn't change on the scale at all. In many cases, she'd go up a little bit. Oh, if you're trying to burn body fat, we just had a live caller who did go up actually in 90 days and still could have gone up more.

5:24What was the sign? Right. He was hungry. Yeah. Yeah. He was hungry. And he looked leaner. It's said, this was a caller who was coming from a place of being, you know, on the leaner, skinnier side who needs to put weight on. He was under eating and kind of overtraining. Yes. And we had that we changed his programming. We increased calories and checked back in with him 90 days later and 90 days later. He got, he gained six pounds of the scale. So based off of that, you go like, oh, he did phenomenal. And he did. He did a really good job. I mean, just to the, the intentions were right. And he did well. But he could have done even better. Yes. Had he had he ate even more, which I think that's even difficult for people as they go like, oh, so to your point, if you gain no weight or you lost weight, you definitely definitely didn't go the right way. Even sometimes when you gain a little bit, you could have got seen a lot better results. And I see that sometimes sometimes people well that I would put on a bulk. See minimal gain on the scale and feel like, oh, this didn't work. And a lot of times because they were so fearful of eating more calories.

6:32And or what they might see is like, they didn't see a lot of strength gains. And it's because they weren't fueling the workouts. So that so these so even though you obviously losing weight in a bulk is a definite red flag that you failed. But sometimes even maintaining or a small gain is a man you could have done a lot more. Yeah. I think the reason why this is so important to speak to you is that so in the past, bulking was always about gaining weight. It always was about gaining weight. Nobody went on a bulk in the past with the intention of their weights thing the same, but just didn't it doesn't make sense. It didn't make sense. Well, back then, do you feel like there was there was this mentality like get bigger die like it was like a mass focus like because you had kind of in pop culture. There's a lot more like big pronounced like bodybuilder type people like I feel like that that sentiment sort of like win away for a while. Yes, but I think more than what you're saying, Justin, I think it's that more women are bulking than ever before. We had that shifted that shifted it and women are afraid more than men, not saying that they're not men who are afraid of this, but more than men of gaining any weight on the scale.

7:45One of our bulk was to gain weight. Now, the ideal was to gain muscle. So nobody went on a bulk to gain like just a bunch of body fat, unless you had a medical condition or very special situations. In some cases, that's what you need to do. But for the most part, we wanted a bulk or everybody wanted a bulk to gain weight. What happened was we saw the other benefits of a bulk, which were faster metabolic rate, setting you up for a more effective cut later, right? Because you have a faster metabolic rate. Now I can cut later with higher calories because my metabolic rate is higher, better hormone balance. You take somebody, you take a man or woman who chronically underheats and over trains and you feed them more and fix their programming the hormones balance. It's amazing that libido goes up. So all those other effects are now what people are chasing. But they're also saying, I don't want any weight to go up on the scale. And so this is actually a problem because part of the reason why all those things improve is because you're gaining weight on the scale, mostly lean body mass and maybe yes, some body fat. But that's why in those cases, you notice all those improvements, because you needed the extra energy. So if you're losing weight on a bulk, you go down two pounds.

8:53Yeah, not enough. Yeah, you're not eating. You're feeling on the bulk. Yeah, I really feel like this. There hasn't been that big of a shift in my opinion on the male side. This has been way more unique or different for the on the female side. I mean, just 25 years ago, cooked out skinny was the look. And so it was eat as little as possible, burn as much as you can at all cost. You didn't want any muscle. That wasn't even desirable at that point. Then we talked recently on a podcast about the GI Jane and Terminator, you know, Sarah Connor movement where like, okay, I like a little bit of shoulders and arms. And so there's a little bit of acceptance there of, okay, I can I'm down with some muscle, but then still fear around eating enough calories to probably build for most people. Then we've gone on to like CrossFit looking girls and okay, I want and and JLo and ass. It's like, okay, now I want a big ass. Now I'm okay with even more. I want shapes.

9:55Yeah, I want more shape and sculpt and even more muscle. And so it's now we're getting a little more comfort like and the narrative has been well, because you pull up GI Jane and look at her. Like that you don't have to get a real aggressive bulk to get to her point. But if you definitely want shape like a CrossFit or you want ass like JLo, you're going to have to. Yeah, you're going to have to eat more and bulk. And so I feel like that like, okay, if you want that look, you got a build. If you want shape and curve like that, you've definitely got to eat a lot more calories to get there in order to build enough muscle to put on that much shape and curve. And so we've just watched this, you know, transition over the last two decades from absolute skinny skinny. And that's what everyone was desiring to this out really more, you know, muscular and it's a good transition. It is still there. Like I want the shape. I don't want to, but I don't want the weight to go up on the scale, which is a mistake because it will go up if you gain muscle. That's what ends up happening.

10:59The other one, which you kind of talked about earlier, Adam is if you're, by the way, if you're doing a good bulk, in other words, you're doing the right kind of bulk, you're still eating whole natural food. So you're not eating garbage. That's a mistake that people made in the past. Like when I was younger, it was gain weight at any cost. Just calorie driven. It didn't matter what you ate. Is eat everything. If you stick to whole natural foods, your bulk is going to be clean. And if you're on a bulk and you're eating whole natural foods and you're hungry and you're not eating when you're hungry, you're failing. You shouldn't feel hungry on a bulk. You should feel hungry and a cut. Like that's normal. You're in a calorie deficit. You're going to be some hunger. But if you're finding yourself at seven o'clock at night and you're in quote unquote a bulk, you're like, man, I'm hungry again. Like what should I do? Now I'm not going to eat. I'm afraid of what getting the body fat. No, no, no. Your body's telling you feed me. Go get that whole natural food meal. Don't go eat garbage and eat it and eat it. You shouldn't feel hungry on a bulk. You should feel satisfied. By the way, let me tell you what happens sometimes to that person is they feel that way night one and they they resist because of fear of putting any bad weight on.

12:07And they again, that hungry again, resist. And then third night, I can't do. And then they then they eat something that's not ideal. Then they go off and they go off the rails and then they put somebody fat on. And so I knew it exactly. Whereas if you would have just stuck to the plan of eat when you're hungry, just make whole foods, make the meal protein centric. And that both those nights in a row ate that and been satisfied. Totally. You would have built muscle. But what happens sometimes is we play that they play this we or any client in this situation a lot of times. We'll play this psychological game of like, I already ate my four meals for the day. I can't eat anymore. Yet they just had a great training session. They've had a week in a row of consists and their body is wanting to build and it's telling them that they need to be fed. And they're afraid to do it. And so they resist. They resist that feeling and that feeling then turns into cravings. And then that cravings makes it even more difficult. And they finally go like, I've been so good for the last two weeks. I'm going to eat this and then go all out. Yeah, because if you eat garbage food, heavily processed food or fast food or whatever, you'll eat way more than your body needs in terms of calories.

13:12Those foods are engineered to make you ovary. So it's one thing to reach for my bowl of ground beef and rice or versus hit reaching for pizza. If I have that pizza, yeah, I'll satisfy the hunger, but I've eaten a good 500 more calories than I would have and probably not even hit my protein targets as a result. Here's a huge red flag that your bulk isn't moving in the right direction. Your strength's not going up. Like if you are if you're in a bulk and your strength isn't going up, it's either I'm not eating enough. I'm not eating enough protein or my programming is wrong. It's one of those three things or all of the above. You should 100% get stronger in a book. In fact, this is what I pay attention to most with my clients. When my clients are reversed, I don't want to bulk. What I'm looking at most closely is strength most closely. Why? Because it's so objective. It's nothing subjective about it. You either lift more or you don't. So it's very clear. And I know this. I know if strength continues to go up consistently, muscle follows. I know this every single time.

14:12So someone who's attending a bulk that falls in this category, two things that I see the most common programming is inappropriate. So either they're on the wrong program, but doing the same thing for too long in appropriate amount of balance of intensity and volume and all the things. And so they need a better program or two, they don't eat enough protein, but they're eating a bunch of other counts. So I or both. Right. Yeah. Right. So it's like a lot of times it's that. Right. So that's what I mean is like someone who feels very confident. I'm in a bulk. But I'm not seeing the results on my strength isn't going up. It's normally those two things. One of those two or both those things that your programming isn't appropriate or good for you and two and or two. You're eating extra calories, but not hitting approach. And by the way, I oftentimes oftentimes I've heard this. I'll talk to somebody like this who's afraid of gaining the wrong way, but we're convincing them to go on a bulk or reverse diet. And I'll ask them, are you stronger? And the answer they'll give me is like, yeah, I think so. Okay, you're not stronger. That's that's you thinking you're a little stronger.

15:21Or hoping that you're a little stronger because you're either afraid of adding more calories or usually that's what it is. You'll know you're stronger because it's pronounced and it's clear. You're you've got it 10 pounds to your left or 15 pounds to your left. Or are you doing five more reps? It's not a I think I'm a little stronger. Your bulk should clearly produce some strength games. Clearly, otherwise it's a big red flag. Here's another one. Your energy isn't any better. So here's this is the one of the characteristics of eating in a proper calories surplus with proper strength training or workout programming is you feel better. You've got more energy to work with. You feel better. A cut, by the way, a cut. Now in some cases, a cut starts initially makes someone feel better, especially if they reduce inflammation or most importantly change the kinds of foods that they eat. Yeah. But all things being equal, a whole food based diet, both ends going on a cut versus going to surplus. The cut can oftentimes cause a little bit of a dip in energy or athletic performance. In fact, that's expected. Why? I mean, less energy that I'm burning.

16:27So that's just like anything. I have less energy. When you're in a proper bulk or reverse diet, you should have more energy. You should feel better. In fact, this is almost this is pretty much always the case when it's done properly. People come back and say, I just feel a lot better. So you think it's mainly the types of foods that they're choosing within this bulk that would kind of, you know, determine that energy and also like inflammation and things like digestion. All things are not enough. Yeah. All things being, yeah. All things being equal, a still good whole food based diet, high protein, more calories or surplus. You'll have more energy. Obviously, there's more energy. That's available. You know, it's interesting. When you look at the on studies on individuals, when they take people and they cut their calories. So they've done these really cool studies where they'll put trackers on people that will track their movement. Okay. So just tracks their daily movement. Then they'll cut their calories or bump their calories. Whenever you cut someone's calories like clockwork, their daily activity drops. Even though they're not aware of it, oftentimes people ask them, are you moving less? Like, no, not moving less.

17:33But they pick. They pick up on it less. They're standing less. They're walking less. They're moving their hands less. This is how your body can, you know, can serve energy. When your calories go up, you tend to move more and have more energy. So you should feel more energy on a good bulk. There's a compounding effect there too. I'm noticing some of my own behaviors. Like calories go up. Energy goes up. Strength and consistency and the gym goes up. Also daily activity all goes up. Like it's like, and the reverse is true. And to your point, if you were to ask me, and I know because I've tracked so diligently for so long. And so obviously I'd have the right answer. But if I didn't have all that data and you ask me, I would think on the days that I'm really sedentary that it's really not that big of a difference than on the other days, because it feels the same. I feel just as tired from work. I feel like I accomplished the same amount. But it's like, it's wild. How much of that subconsciously when you are feeling the body properly, you're training properly. How much you're just your neat goes up. Totally. Your neat goes up organically. And yet subconsciously, it feels the same. Yeah.

18:41Because you're counting structured movement and exercise. You're not counting. They're like, you know, I'm sitting in my chair, swinging side to side or standing up more and stuff like that. Which all like I said, it's very well documented. They track this. Your body will modify that movement. And you want to be aware of it. Yeah. Unless it's it's to me, it's what we've talked about it in the podcast many times. I've I've shared my own journey of like, you know, I've connected it to like, I'm a better husband and father when I'm training and eating well. And that's part of what keeps me motivated. Yeah. Why don't you talk about what it's like being a husband or a father pre contest. Yeah. Yeah. This is a well known foul. You're 100% right. Nobody wants to be around. I have friends that are bodybuilders and their wives know. All right. We're going to pre contest. So and so is going to be a jerk. Yeah. And we just got to deal with it. Yeah. Your whole family's calorie, your low energy. You don't want to do stuff like that. And the opposite is true when you're fueled properly. And you're and you're working out. And then in a bulk like that, it feels amazing. And I don't you like you. I just get up and do more stuff. I see the kitchen's dirty. I just get up and I clean up that versus put me in a calorie deficit and or missing workouts. And it's like, yeah, I don't have. I just don't want to do it there. You know, yeah.

19:53And it's taken years of really peering into that to connect those dots and go like, oh, wow, there's a significant difference. Remember in the extreme case, Adam, when you were doing the experiment with the G.O. Yeah. Yeah. Where you were just eating very little just like this. Let's see what people experienced. I remember you telling me the thing you noticed the most was the low energy. Yeah. You were like, I have to decide to either clean the house or workout can't do both. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it was it was an either or for sure because I knew I didn't I didn't want to do either. But I knew I want to do one. Yeah. I was like, I can't fail on the workout. The end fails a husband is like, I got it. I got to choose. Yeah. I wasn't doing both though. There was no way. I just I just didn't have it in me to do both. And I I battled that daily daily felt that now you're highlighting an extreme example. Yeah. But I mean, I think that I think that's is happening to us on a smaller scale. And you just don't realize it. And that's why because it's not as extreme. So it's not as obvious to people. But that's happening. It's well, it's so well documented that people often argue that the metabolism boost that comes from a reverse diet is more to do with this this kind of activity outside of exercise.

21:02Now that's not doesn't cover it all, but it is so well documented that it does happen. No, I don't that's one of the thing that are the arguments I've always made in defense of when people try and argue that like one pound of muscle doesn't burn that many more calories. It's okay fair enough like if you cut out the tissue and you measured in the lab and it doesn't tell a full story. And you're right. It doesn't account for a guy with five more pounds of muscle. What it what he has to do inside the gym to have built that muscle, keep that muscle and the energy and the food. Yes, a fuel in order to do all that. It gives him more energy that didn't make so there is this massive compounding effect. Yep. That happens subconsciously that all plays in the factor. At the end of the day when we're training clients, it doesn't matter how we care. I don't care how I got her metabolism to 800 more calories a day, but we do it all the time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They predict the I don't care to fight over the science of exactly the mechanism at which got there. I just know the facts of I've done hundreds of people. Yeah, I've seen that happen to.

22:05And at the end of the day, if it works for them and they now have attached and created those behavior for the rest of their life, it's it's work. That's right. And lastly, your sleep isn't better. So one of the characteristics of being in a deficit is you don't have good sleep or your sleep doesn't feel restful. So anybody who's been a deficit for a long period of time knows what this is like. It's either I can't get enough sleep or man, I'm going to bed and I got this kind of restless feeling. Being in a surplus, having that much energy, improves sleep across the board. Of course, again, this is in the context of a healthy bulk, whole natural foods appropriate training. But if you're going into bulk and your sleep isn't better or it were worse, it's worse. Then that's kind of a red flag that you're not doing it in the right way. So you know, you didn't list this on here, but I think it deserves an honorable mention that I've connected to the dots to you. I've heard from clients all times. Impact on libido. I've seen a lot of clients who yes, when they go down in the cut. Right. When they when they are eating when I put them on a bulk, it's one of the things I constantly would hear feedback of like within a week. Yeah, I know.

23:13libido and and a lot of times when you have been under fed for such a long period of time, libido is one of the things that is crashed. Even for people who thought they had an okay libido. Right. They'll be like, oh, I'm fine. Yeah, then they go on a bulk. Yeah, then they go to bulk. They're like, wow. You know, and again, there's probably a compounding effect there. They're bulking. They're building more muscle. Yeah, that's the case. Yeah, that's the case. Yeah, totally. All right. Yo, I was going to I got to bring this up again. So recently I talked about how how old machines because I'm going to a gym right now that has both new and old machines because the gym has been there for a long time and everything's kept up really well. So I like older machines like machines from like the 90s early 2000s. None are from the 80s, although I'd love to find those, but they made them different back in the day. I talked about this on a previous episode where old machines were really designed for bodybuilders and athletes. New machines are designed to have a small footprint be easy to use safety and safety and the average person. So a lot of things are different between the old machines and the new machines. The old machines were more hardcore than the new machines.

24:17And there's one other and I talked about some of the differences, but there's one big. I just picked on it, picked this up today. I went and I haven't done a leg extension a long time. Okay, I rarely ever do leg extensions when I work out my legs. I prefer doing other exercises. But anytime I do do a leg extension at a gym, I could do the whole stack. The stack is never heavy. I'll do 25 reps with the whole stack. The old ones are broke the stacks on old machines were made for bodybuilders. Just the levers are automatically went whole stack and I was, oh boy, that's way too heavy. And I'm like, oh yeah, I remember like old machines were for strong dudes. Yeah, yeah. So you whole stacking starting point is already kind of yeah, yeah, I typically use the whole stack on new machines and any extra. So funny. I trained in the gym yesterday and I used a machine. I used a dip machine and I was stack stack the whole thing. You said, you did machine from 97, bro, you're going to go halfway down the stack. Like belts on them. It's got a holy damn.

25:18Oh, it's cracking up. The radiator belt holding it together. I literally, I literally just took the pan and I went all the way to the bottom just out of habit. And I went, pick myself up with a chair. Oh, no, dude. What is going on? Anyway, I got to tell you guys about my uncle who he got back to me. So we did, yeah, I told you guys last weekend we did tomatoes. So I'm a whole family came together and my uncle comes up and he doesn't work out or anything. But I guess someone is algorithm. So he comes up to me and he goes, hey, he goes, one of the products you talk about. I've been using for a while. I've been putting in my coffee. I'm like, your coffee. I'm like, paleo valley protein. He's like, yeah, I love it. I'm like, how do you feel? Man, I feel great. I have more energy. He's like, I gained a couple pounds though. I'm like, what do you mean you gained a couple of pounds? So we started talking more and turned out my aunt's been making me sweets. I don't think that's what's happening. I don't think you're under calorie of protein. But he loves it. He loves how he feels. He loves adding it to his coffee. Normally, he would just have coffee. And now he's having, you know, the paleo valley protein in there and he likes the way it tastes.

26:20Doug and I just had our final walkthrough on one of the properties. And the agent that was doing the walkthrough with us, you know, afterwards, she was curious about what we did. And so she went and must have researched this. And then after that, like the algorithm has been far over. Yeah, yeah. So she, the last time we, this last time when we walked through, she's like, so tell me about this paleo valley bone broth. Because my, I can't, I'm lactose intolerant. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I was like, well, that algorithm is pretty good. The fact that she knew who we were. She wouldn't Google us with it. And then within like a day was asking Doug and I about paleo valley. And I was like, oh my god. I'm like, that's that's a pretty good advertising there by far. And this is what my uncle told me because again, he doesn't work out. He doesn't care. And he's like, I was afraid to buy it because I hate protein powders. They always taste gross. He goes, this one is so good as I told you, bro. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I was telling her. I'm like, I think it's for especially for somebody who is. Lactose, you can't have, you know, dairy can have way. Because way, way typically is one of the best tasting protein.

27:20One of the better ones. Yeah, that you could taste. But a lot of people, they're intolerant to it or it bothers them a little bit, right? And so the bone broth is just so good. And I love that I can do. It's easy to digest. I love that I can go high. No, I can do 70 grams of protein in a row. To be able to, but like I can't even with I can have way again, I've talked about this before where I can I can do way proteins. I just have to have moderate amount. Yeah. Once a day is enough for me. And I definitely can't do like a double up shake. Like if I had like 60 to 80 grams away in one sitting like that'll mess me up. But I can do 60 to 80 grams of the bone broth. I do all the time. And it digest so easy. Like water. Yes. I know. Yeah. So that's the huge win. But did you guys have you guys seen the new dating app? It's real, by the way, that's kind of going around the new one. Yeah, Doug, look up. How do they change it? Look up the dating app. So this is interesting, dude. And I almost could have predicted this. So it's called Doug, look this up. It's unjected. So you and J.

28:24E C T E D. Unjected. Uncited rejected. You're unjected. Nope. Oh, for people. People who want to date people who were never vaccinated with the COVID vaccine. It's literally a dating website for people who never got the COVID vaccine. I mean, I feel like this is kind of a way of being like the non-political way of saying to put a call. I feel like that's what that is. Not necessarily this, but like. So way back when like I was telling you guys like one of my my sister and I was looking at. You know, getting a donor. You know, and so like one of the pravers of like, did you find out like, you know, the history? Like how much detail do they give you? And it's like, I don't think they were revealing or not. But then they start revealing if they had the vaccine or not. Yes. I'm so I heard this not confirmed. But I heard that that donors, like sperm donors, I'm vaccinated. They'll charge more or more demand.

29:25Yes. That's what I heard. Is our sperm donors who did not get the COVID vaccine in higher demand? Let's look that up. But it's crazy that they have a. I mean, don't you feel like that's like a like a subtle way of being like well, there's a lot of like there's a lot of conjecture and conspiracy theory stuff out there. Is it true? Not I don't know. We won't get into that. But people want it. Yeah. They want to take people. Whoever like through that my way on my story, it wasn't going to like this. Oh, you had somebody yet somebody. Yeah, they're like challenging me on our our COVID science. And what's yeah, all the stuff that you listed. Yeah, everything you listen was a fact. Well, yeah, no, I I listed that as a response. Yeah, as a response because it was like I think they had a hard time because we mentioned a lot of studies all the time and you know back a lot of what we say with science and they're you know obviously just looking at one specific study that was like

30:28you know, making it look like the you know, the vaccines like had a pretty high effectiveness which is like, oh, that's interesting because like I've seen a lot of conflicting studies to the other people that still believe that. Yeah. Oh, that's funny. Oh, yeah. That's hilarious. Like, you know, I still can do you guys get I get CVS sends me the get your COVID 19. I'm so petty. Like I said, I said, I said, I said, back. Laugh out loud. No, you don't. To the robot. Yeah. That's. That's. Like I'm really going to go get that. Come on. Well, are you serious? I people that really believe that it had that much of an impact. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting. And it you know, it just goes to show to like how segmented we are and like how much. No, you know, no, no, no, no, no. So that's what I want to show which is such a perfect transition for this because I wanted to bring it up anyways is what Christina Gebe just talked about. Oh, how well media media paint's a narrative and how well and today, how crazy it is. So yeah, it is all the power.

31:30What I love about this episode. Chris is such a good job on this episode. It's one of my favorite episodes. He's ever done. Higher standards. Yeah. So yeah, Chris, our good friend we've been on the show before. Chris Nagibi, a higher standard podcast. And what I love that he set the table before he went just telling hit like history. This has been happening for 200 years. Yeah. So just a little context. So historically speaking. So if you live in a, first of all, this is important in all societies, but it's especially important and valuable in a free society where people make choices. So if you live in a society like you do, if you're listening to this podcast, you probably live in one of those societies where you can choose for the most part what you can buy, you don't want to buy where you want to live, who you can vote for. When you have that kind of choice, the, the, who controls the narrative, which is done largely through media, has a lot of power, right? Because you can sway people in different directions. And this is not new. We've known this for, oh, forever. We've been this for a long time.

32:30But like the, look at the first newspapers and who bought those and on those and why and when, uh, when it was TV, how TV became influence radio became influence. Um, magazines, magazines. Now it's like social media. So whoever controls the, that's very valuable for either companies, the platform, the politicians or anything is who can control the narrative tends to control the situation. And so, and by the way, the reason why this came up and you know, one of our friends is involved in this. And I, so I respect the guy. I think, you know, he does a good job. It was really interesting to me when I saw, um, our friends podcasts be the highest selling podcast of all time. So this was the T B P N. I think that's what's called T B P N podcast. So this was a, they called it like sports center for Silicon Valley. So it was a podcast, uh, and they kind of treated it like sports center with a reporting on what's going on, talking about Silicon Valley. It was this super new podcast that got bought recently for hundreds of millions.

33:34Yeah. So some, so just under Joe Rogan. Yeah. Like around 200 million dollars. Now the reason why this was interesting was because, uh, Joe Rogan gets 10 million views or listens to a million in episode. They got, they, like very little, very little in comparison. They weren't producing. There was nothing that justified the selling of their podcast for nearly that much except for, and this is what we speculated on. I think this was happened that AI companies in particular, first off, they have really low approval ratings. So AI is like, it's this emerging technology. Tons of potential money in it. Everybody knows this. Like, uh, this is why so many trillions of dollars getting dumped into it. But AI, uh, there's been some backlash though. Like public perception around it is like if he, yeah, and you know, public procession, uh, public perception goes the wrong way. It'll get regulated into into smithereens. Have you seen all those commencement speeches that are flying around?

34:34Yeah. And then mention it. And everybody's just, that's why this has become so important. So owning the narrative is very important for an AI company. Okay. And who bought their podcast for centers, all the stuff. And who bought their podcast for $200 million, right? It was, uh, anthropic. Yeah. Was it anthropic? Sam Altman. Yeah. I think that's the one right there. Well, anthropic, yes. Uh, and then they bought it and they canceled their app. So whatever money they were making, they stopped. No advertising. Yeah. How can a podcast, first off, wasn't earning nowhere near what would be worth $200 million in purchase? And how could they sell for that much? And then on top of why would a company buy that and cancel advertising anyway? So it makes no money because they want to control the narrative. And they need a propaganda arm or an arm of, of media. And there really wasn't a good popular one in Silicon Valley. And you got these guys on there. One of them we know well. He does a good job. Yeah. Smart, sharp, it's like, hey, let's buy this and let's use this to, to, to, to control

35:36the narrative. That's, and by the way, that's why I speculate when I saw that and like, oh God, I know what happened. Well, and what have I been saying about the whole AI movement right now too, that so much of it is propped up and so they, they need to keep all the money flowing there. And you ask why, why? Well, of course there's, uh, all these companies that want to IPO where they make big money. But even if they don't IPO, you know, and this was like, this is huge for me to kind of see behind the curtain in the last like five years, being a part of, um, a lot of people that are, VCs and do seed rounds and funding and have close friends, people that are on Forbes magazine, stuff like that that I got to talk to in, in talk business intimately on how all this, I was so unfamiliar 10 years ago on how all this worked. And when I saw it, I remember sharing with you guys, and I don't know how much of that I, I've shared publicly on, uh, on here, but I know we've talked about it. But I was like, so blown away by the, the hustle, yeah, the VCE. Yeah, just like, so we went, when, when something, when something, especially like this,

36:39like AI, when billions of dollars are flowing in a direction of a movement and they're, they're popping up all over the place. You don't even care if that company ever makes it to IPO. So long as you can keep it growing and, and, and raising money, every six months to a year, you know, seed rounds and then series, and then you keep going, keep going, what these, what these founders can do is every round that comes around, you go, oh, we're rate, we, hey, we grew this much over the last year, even though we spent this much to grow that much. So we're still negative, but we're growing. We need another $10 million. Cool. So we get $10 million and he goes like this. I'll take one million for myself and we'll pump nine million back into it to make it to the next and to be clear, many of the biggest companies in the world that we know about did that for a long time before they became extremely like Amazon was, uh, for like 10 years, Tesla, like, so it's the game and what they're doing is they're betting.

37:39Well, yeah, so you're, you just, you just named, uh, two outliers. That's right. Some of the winners, yeah, that many hundreds, yeah, of losers, a thousand, huge percentage don't ever even come close to that and making that way. Meanwhile, they're still making a ton of money. And so it's like a good old boys club where it's like, Hey, let's all agree. Just keep pushing this narrative, this direction. We all eat because if we keep, and this, this by the way, this is, this is good news and bad news. This is scare stuff too. That's why that was my point. Like when you bring it, oh my God, I'll, like, it's keeping it top of news. Yeah. So whether, whether it's, there's fear mongering happening on what A. I is going to kill all of us or it's going to be doing our dishes in the next month. It doesn't matter so long as it's top of the news and everyone's talking about it. And it's going to revel, it's like, it's dot com all over. Well, and here, and here's the big thing. So for a long time, tech has, uh, enjoyed the advantage of having good public perception for a while up until relatively recently, relatively recently. There's been criticism.

38:41There's been cynicism around tech. You saw it affect the elections. Yeah. Like, like when the iPhone first came out, like it was, everybody was like, let's go. This is awesome. Apple's the best company in the world. Amazon's amazing. Now people are more cynical and skeptical. Um, public policy is starting to move in that direction. Social media starting to get regulated. Tech moguls are getting criticized. They looked at as bad guys in some cases. They were heroes before. And Steve Jobs was the guy like they, they were all heroes because it was new. So what my point with that is today, more than ever, and definitely next five or 10 years, they are going to need to control the narrative. They are investing heavily in controlling no, no different than politicians. No different than politicians have, uh, throw the past. So you're going to see more of that kind of stuff because your options are this. You're an anthropic. You got two options. You're looking at public perception or the top companies like guys, we got to change everybody's opinion on us. And what we do, either a, we build a, a machine, we build our own show that pumps

39:46out good information about us and makes us look good. Good luck with that. It's one thing to build an incredible AI company. It's a completely different thing to build a media company. Or you look at one and you go, they're promising. Let's give them some money and they'll do what we say anyway. And let's rock and roll. Which by the way, if you're, if you're listing this and this conversation at all, and trust you, the breakdown that Chris does on the timeline, such a good episode. And in the links to everything to back up all the stuff that he's talking about and the connections to everything, it's fascinating and such a good episode. And by the way, if anybody is like questioning this, like, does anybody question that Elon Musk buying X, which was Twitter at the time, didn't influence the last election? Yeah. Or is it? Yeah. It totally did. He's just, they're playing the game that's been played. I didn't realize the part. Did you hear when Chris talked about, uh, the, uh, when Elon and Biden both texts the same day and, and Biden's texts, he was like 29 million and then he was like nine million. So that was like that, that's what set off the buying of a Twitter or

40:46or, or, you know, his tweet, you mean? Yeah, his tweet that went out. So he, he, Biden's tweet crushed, crushed and his was suppressed. Oh, and he went in and like fired, fired a bunch of people that was responsible. That changed the algorithm. It's like, uh, and flipped it like completely. Uh-huh. So I mean, just, do you know, you know, that one of the reasons why, uh, this is connected, one of the reasons why cannabis went through this whole period of prohibition was because, uh, who was it? Was it William Hurst? Who owned the paper mills? Yep. And hemp was starting to compete. Yeah, yeah, with paper. And because William Hurst owned the newspapers, he started printing a bunch of, uh, articles going to talk about how dangerous cannabis was. And the goal was to get for the, the goal was to get rid of competition. It was because because, hemp was, because hemp was so much, or so, so much cheaper and expensive to produce. And more durable. It's like, yeah, such a missed opportunity with such a material. And I did the point of all this. And we're bleaching it. Yeah. That's the part that I think Chris does a really good job of this is like, he, he talks

41:48about what's going on with TBB and, and, and that, the narrative and the purchase of all that. But he sets the table of like, like, this is not new strategy. No, this has been, and nor am I like, and he's like, nor am I hating. It's just like it's so mean. If you're them, it's an old game, dude. Yeah. But it's like, but it's like, people need, people need to know, you know, say, you, you need to know like what's, what, what you're, a bit all back to my point of going on this tangent with you is just, I just feel like that's what's so much of the, the narrative, whatever you're, and boy, it's today, it's crazy. Once you like something and you watch something and the algorithm figures out what you like or the information that you get, because you just hover over some, oh, just, just, just get ready, because the next six months, everything will just confirm your rights. I've had people, I've had friends of mine. Yeah, for sure. I've had friends of mine that I'll meet, like friends at church, for example, who don't know the show, they don't know mine pump, they don't know who I am. We meet, we start talking the next day, they go, listen, I don't look you up or anything, but now you're showing up on my algorithm. Like, you're filming listening?

42:48Is it listening? I'm sure it is. Well, it's a thing. Yeah. And I forget what it was, but they had shown, you know, through drive-ins, predictably, you know, they already knew your order. I don't know if it was McDonald's or one of these franchises was using this technology before it was legal, you know, and then they had to stop because it was like an invasion of privacy, but they were like tracking license plates and like, you know, so they've been doing these things like that's the first rollout is like, you know, you're testing it and you get in the beta testing and you guys have seen it with your navigation, haven't you? I mean, it's like, it predicts where I'm going all the time. It's really wrong. I know. I mean, it's wrong sometimes. I'm like, dude, this is like, it can be like literally, it's going to buy a breeder and a random bid in the week. And I'm heading somewhere and I know he still violates, you know, it suggests where I'm going and I'm like, how's it? No, I'm going, but it's been tracking. We're consistent. We're consistent. Yeah, our patterns are predictable. Do you guys know that back in the day? I don't know when it was and maybe you can confirm this dog, but they experimented movies,

43:50experimented or they tested subliminal messaging. Yeah, yeah. And they had to make it illegal. Uh-huh. Where they flash a picture. Yeah. But that you don't necessarily perceive that movie. Thank you for smoking. Talked about that show that highlighted that where they flash a cigarette smoke and you get to you get a freeze it to see it. But if you didn't see it, look at this in 1957 market researcher James Vickery claimed he flashed drink Coca-Cola and he popcorn during movie boosting concession sales. Oh, wow. Well, okay. So it says, I mean, subliminal messaging. You know what movie does this, by the way? There's a movie that does this that you can actually you can actually find the frames by club. Uh-huh. Flight club does certain flashes. Thank you for smoking does it too. They did it. They did it in there. They did like little like cigarette burn mark. Yeah. And then it like they did. They did stuff like that. I mean, they do this with grocery stores with music and and and stores. Yeah. Yeah, there's certain music played to keep you shopping. Yeah. Certain temperatures, you know, like coffee shops, you know, keep, you know, buying. We were talking about dating dating app earlier and you guys know what's the trend right

44:55now on social media with the younger generation. What? Pheremon, Maxing. Pheremon, Maxing. Pheremon, Maxing. Pheremon, Maxing. You know what this you know what to do? What do they do? Dudes are not showering. What? So when they go on a date that their Pheremon are maxed out and that'll maybe get the right. They smell like just trousers. A viral online dating trend where men intentionally skip showering ditched the other aunt and were uncloth unwashed clothes before dates. Weird. Does that work? So okay. So here's a funny thing about this. Because someone's listening to like that's gross. This is here's what's weird. I mean, there's a side. A woman who's ovulating versus a woman who isn't ovulating. Same woman. She will perceive if a man wore a shirt or not as attractive or not. But if she's ovulating and a man wore a shirt, she'll smell it. Oh, this smells really good. So this might only work if she's ovulating, bro. But if she's not, you're going to get it. So you think, okay, because they're also like trying to capture this with like, like,

45:57alone. And there's like one that's like, it's always trying to mark it. I think like my son and it's like, you know, it has Pheremon's in it. And it's like, you know, the only one that has it and it's like super expensive. And, you know, so that way too. Like women will, you know, pick up on that like subliminally. So isn't there, isn't there a science of support that we, like, that we, we pair and match with, with the appropriate like Pheremon's for us? In other words, like, so one of the things that hormones are all different. I remember like connecting this a long, a long time ago through dating is like, there's, I would date a girl and one girl could be that, let's say one girlfriend. It could be all sweaty, not shower, come with him. And I liked the way she smelled. And the other girl that I dated, I would notice I was repulsed by that smell. Right. So both sweaty, not showers or that. But one of them that smell I'm attracted to and it, you know, I, I, I, I, take up on something different. Yes. 100% were another one I would date and they would have a smell and it would be off

46:57putting. You know, it's, you know, it's crazy about that. I tell my wife, she's in believe me, but I, this, I tell her this whole time. Her, her, she, I don't necessarily smell anything, but I love to smell her. And she'll, and she'll be like, oh my God, it's shower and I'll be like, yes. That's how we do it. Don't you, don't you think that we love it? Don't you think that there's certain? There's got to be. Yeah. So to me, that makes sense. Which by the way, when women are on birth control versus not completely changes how they like. Now the funny thing about this that I think is, it'll, it'll talk about a quick way to like, no, you're not matched up. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah. You're in the shower. Because the right person probably is like, oh, they, they smell, either they, they, they're neutral to them or they smell good. I don't know how you need to think about that, dude. I don't like someone to smell. It's really happening. Yes. I'm not, I'm not going to be with someone that I don't like to smell, bro. Well, they're, they're bad. I mean, there's a, there's a, there's a, oh, God. Just, no. That's a big problem. You know, from the bottom of it. I didn't hear what he said. I heard what he said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you, you know, speaking of, of dating and relationships and stuff, I share with you

47:59that Arthur Brooks post. Oh, yeah. Happiness. That's old data. So I'll read, I'll read his post because it's really, it's really, it's really, it's really good. It's good. I've thought so. It's good. And the reason why, but I brought this up a long time ago because there was, you have, and I, I wanted to revisit it because I wanted to show you. No, there were these studies that would come out, actually, article in the title of the articles would say, because of studies, they'd say, uh, peep parent couples without kids are happier. And they quote the study, and I hate stuff like this because it's not telling the full picture. So here's what his post says and because he knows the actual data. So it says couples without children enjoy their lives more than parents do, but they suffer a hidden cost. When researchers compare parents with otherwise similar couples, the childless report more day to day enjoyment, more sleep, more restaurants, more finished sentences. So are the couples deciding against children reading the data correctly? Well, they are reading only one line of it. Happiness has three macro nutrients, enjoyment satisfaction and meaning, and they're all fed differently. Children are a trade between macro nutrients. They draw down enjoyment sometimes for a decade at a stretch and they deposit meaning.

49:04So when researchers ask people to rate their daily activities, caring for children, lands near the bottom, for moment to moment happiness, been near the top for meaning and nothing splits the two so hard. And then he talks about his own experience with his own kids. So I wanted you to bring it up because there's something that I've always tried to figure out about my own personal journey with this because I, I fell in the category. It would be like thought about not having kids for the longest time. And one of the cases that I make for is, I mean, especially the continued idea for a long time without max, right? We had a really, really good life. Like we had a lot of fun, a lot of, you know, a lot of basketball games, a lot of concerts, a lot of fun travel, a lot of cool stuff and really, really enjoy each other. And so there was this possibility, like I could see not having kids. But I also say, you know, seven years later, Katrina and I have done more of all of that. And so I've always been like, what? That's kind of weird because that's, that's the opposite of the narrative around that.

50:05And so another reason why I don't like those studies that show that because it doesn't tease out what I have and because when I compared to my like two best friends, because I don't think they would say that. They would definitely say the children of the game, meaning they would say, man, when we were single, we definitely had more of those. Because it was a period of time when you didn't, right? When Max was really little. It was a couple of years, right or a year where you're not going all over the place. When he was three months old, we were already up at our Tahoe house. We were flying with him by time before he was six months old. Well, that's not the, that's not the typical. Right. So this is, this is me. So why I'm saying why that story doesn't tell everything because here's, and the reason why what I've unpacked for myself is how valuable family has been for us. And what I have found is because we have family, so willing to help and support, which I think is so valuable, I think Katrina and I have been even more intentful to do those things because it's like we, we got Friday, mom, my, my mother-in-law's got our son.

51:09So we're, we're, we got this. We're going to go do and then we got this and so we plan even more. Not to mention we do a lot with Max. And so then on top of that, I find that we go out of our way to do even more because we get that one night or two nights off a week and then the week. So it's like, I think that there's more to that. It's like, yeah, if you tease out somebody who is married and has a kid and also isolated from family and of course they're going to see a dramatic difference in that. Yeah, when you look at, there's other, there's other, my point is that there's other factors that play in that too. Of course, when you're looking at studies, you're looking at the general. Yes. And so there's always outliers. And so I think that's a very, very, very important thing to be speaking. I think it's reasonable to expect that you're not going to have as much personal enjoyment in freedom when you have kids, especially multiple kids, especially for the first five years that they're around. I think that's a very reasonable thing to expect. That's also what the data supports. But I think what's more important about this data is my own personal enjoyment.

52:12If I just do that all the time and that's the most important thing to me, you know what that turns into a hedonistic hell. A treadmill of hedonism. And all of us know some people like this, right? They're in their kind of late 40s. They've lived this life. It's all about them. They still don't have any kids. And they're now at the point where they're like, this is, like, this is worn out. Like this is worn out. I'm either on some kind of antidepressant or I'm not happy or what's going on. And sometimes it takes that long for people to figure that out. Because if you look at all the data, again, we're speaking generally because some people are way more miserable with kids for whatever reason. But generally speaking, when you do these studies, people are generally better off having kids than they weren't. And yes, you are trading personal freedom and enjoyment for meaning. 100%. Yeah, I think it's a good way to frame it that you should go into expecting that. But I also don't think that's, I don't think you have to. No. I think that if you go into that situation, then you're intentful about it.

53:16And you make that like, hey, this is what mother law or auntie or uncle, if you have that, right? So I definitely think if you don't have that, you should prepare that you're not going to go out as many concerts. You're not going to go as many of these things, right? As you did before because you don't have. You're just going to grow in incredible other ways. Yeah, so expect it. Exactly. You get the meaning part, you're going to get heavily on the meaning part. But I do believe that there is, I mean, I know that I was exceptional. And I know that I was the person who probably was afraid to have in kids because of a fear of giving so much of that up like that was going to happen. And the opposite was true for me. And I did not see that coming. And so it changed a lot. It's so funny. I have a buddy who's now, how old is he? He's mid 40s. And he's lived that life. So work, made money, did whatever he wanted, dated girls, never settling down type of deal. Now he's in his mid 40s and now we're having conversations.

54:17And he's like, yeah, dude, I'm kind of lonely. Like I think I'm like ready to settle down. I think I'm like ready to do this. And I'm like, well, is that going to be, how's that going to feel for you? Because you've lived this other way for so long. Are you willing to like trade this freedom and whatever to be with somebody who, and now you're also 45. So not only that. So you're decent looking and you make good money, but are you going to find your age group or below in an appropriate age range? You're probably going to find someone with kids. It's the worst. Not only that. So we're having this funny that we went this direction and this conversation because Katrina and I were having this discussion last night. I've got three people in my life that fit this category. And one of the other things that becomes also extremely challenging is that you're in your late 40s or 50s and you've, you've established these patterns of how you live your life. And when you've lived it for that long, a certain way for, and I'm not going to sell out one of the people that I was having this conversation with one of my friends.

55:19I was talking to about this. This is one of my female friends. And she's like, I am. She really wants a partner. She wants all these things. And she's expressing that. And I'm like, you got it. You can't keep doing the same thing you've been doing for the last 30 years. And I joined a gym and I'm doing this. I'm like, yeah, but the time you go, you're not going to meet anybody going that time. Yeah, but that's what that's the problem. Everything you do is like, this is what works for me. And this is a mischedule. And this is when I do this. And this is when I do that. And you have this routine that you won't break out of yet you want something different. So it's like, you got to break out of that same friend circle, meet new people. You got to stop the like, this is the time I always do this and the time I always do that because you've already met all those people. Like you've got to shake all that up. And boy, that's hard to do for somebody who's been doing that for a long time. And we've also just, and this is, we talked about this earlier, controlling the narrative. And the narrative for a long time has been the most valuable thing is personal freedom. Personal enjoyment is hedonistic pleasure.

56:21And we've been hammered this into us for so long. People believe this, but the data is showing we've been wrong. It's been wrong, everybody. In fact, in fact, you know, when birth control, because birth control plays a role in all of this. So we're talking about when birth control was first brought to market, do you know how it was advertised? It was advertised for married couples to help them stay married longer because now they have an option to control, you know, whether or not they have children. Because back then they were like, it's a stress. You have a kid, you can't afford it. That causes a lot of strain. And now you have a way to control your fertility. And then of course it turned into, hey, now you can control your fertility and you can sleep, you can have sex with other people without the risk. And you know what, that's better because now you can see if you're compatible and this was kind of the narrative. You know what happened since that became mainstream, divorce rates went from 8% to 50% childless households went through the roof. And people are less happy, man are less happy. You know, it's especially less happy. Women are way less happy.

57:22In fact, they call this a parrot. This is like a paradox. Why are they so much less happy than they were when they had, you know, perceived less freedoms? And it's because we've sold this idea so long that the most important thing in your life is having a lot of stuff, having all this personal freedom and having all this personal enjoyment and pleasure. That's just not the way it works. The data doesn't support it. We can see it. And you know what, marriage and kids is hard. Do you have a lot of responsibility? You give up personal freedom. You give up personal enjoyment. You do, but when you get in return, it's a little worth it. Purpose of meaning. Yeah. Because the other two aren't the formula for purpose. No. So that's exactly why. No, totally. Anyway, you were talking about working out earlier and I was excited. I don't know if you saw this, Adam, because I thought of you. What? Viori now has pickleball battle. Yes, I did. I already put a call in. Did you really? Yes, I'm trying to get some battles. You know, first off. So Viori's smart for Viori. I mean, Vlazzi and Doug brought up when he went river rafting.

58:22They had the rash card stuff or whatever for them. Smart. Yeah. They're on top. Cool back. They had snowboard. I swear. I saw when they had snowboard. They're like, man, they're expanding into all different areas. What are the real quick? What are these sweats called again? We have the same ones. Seaside. They're the best. Oh, the seaside. Best, best, best sweats ever had in my life. How are those pretty much every night? Comfortable, warm. The last forever. All of it. There's the battles right there. Yeah, Viori does a good job. Look at that, dude. It's so good. So, excuse me, Pickleball has literally exploded. Yes. And popularity. Is it one of the fastest growing sports I do believe so? I would imagine. I should have set up. I'm curious. It's got to be. Yeah. I never heard of it. Did you guys see suddenly? Did you guys see the Pickleball movie? I've dinked. Yeah, did you watch it? Did you see the other trailer? I didn't watch it. I mean, it's not like I'm not promoting it. It's the fastest growing sport in the United States. Yep. The fastest growing. So the hope, I told you. What's the rate of growth, Doug? I'm interested to see over the last five years. You just have more than 24 million players.

59:23Cool. Yeah. Let's see. I'll find you. Yeah, yeah, just putting so brilliant. Pickleball rate of growth over the last five years. So, popularity, Viori to jump on that. So far. They're very, you know, Viori is so crazy. I know we've been, hello, we're with them. Just 10 years. 10 years? Almost. They went from being this kind of unknown, like cool company to, like, dominating. Yeah. Like crushing. Oh, now it's, it's got to a place where when I see someone in an athlete's your where it's almost always. I always see Viori. Both women and men used to be just men. I would see that. But now it's women and men. I see it's like they definitely, be interesting to see how much of the market share they have now taken. You know, because it's blue, blue dominates. Bro, look at the growth of pickable last five years. 400 and 79%. What? It went from four million players to 24 million players. Well, didn't you hear it was a Gary V. Who bought a tee? Should we buy pickleball courts right now? Bro, he bought like a tee. No, it's a, it's a, it's a, it would be a brilliant investment. You know, you know, hard, you know, hard it is to get on a pickleball court right now.

1:00:24We should buy some land, put pickleball courts on there, let people rent it and then sell it before the, the crate, because the craze will go down. Yeah, it'll, it'll crush and it'll go down. It'll drop at some point. So it's like, it has, I don't know about that. It's been around forever. So it's not like it's a new thing. Yeah, but suddenly, I think because it's multi-generational. Well, I think it's twice going to stay. I think everybody can do it. Multiple factors and I, I would bet against you that it's going to go away. We'll slow down 100%. Yeah, it can't grow at that rate forever. But here's the thing. You've talked about this all the time. Uh, we don't, we don't meet up. No, it's very, very emotionalized. Yeah. And the barrier to entry for pickleball is low. Is low. It's a perfect, you can be 70 and go play. And you can be super athletic and go play. And it's competitive at all levels. That's right. That's right. So I mean, listen, I, I would bank on this and going away for quite some time. Now I can't predict 20 years from now what we're doing or what are with that. But it's going to be hot for a while. And I don't, I don't think we're going to see a.

1:01:25Are you trying to talk us into maps pickleball? I mean, I like your, I like your idea of some land like an acre and throw on some pickleball. I think it'll crush right now. It would absolutely. And then you sell it after grows, just sell it real quick. And then somebody else will buy it for a profit. I mean, I start promoting Jasmine. I'm not a, I'm not a guest. I don't see it. What? Yeah. I got, for one of the Christmases, I got like the boys this like game. It's like a pop up square. So it's a square that has like, oh, I saw that. Yeah. And she had paddles, but it's like basically badminton. But you have to hit it through this little square. Jasmine. Oh, I love that. Oh, that's it. Yeah. Oh, my kids would love that. Yeah, exactly. Like that would be like the next follow up. When I was a kid, badminton was popular for kid for, for family. That badminton never really took off. Like, but that was always another easy one. So weird. I totally forgot this. My family used to get together and play badminton. What were a group of Sicilian's doing playing? Because it's more of a European thing, I think. So you remember, uh, uh, Karan, you had to say, uh, it's right there.

1:02:26It was called, yes. My, uh, our trainer, uh, Karan, who comes in here was like a badminton champion. He's like, like, world-ranked. No way. Yes. Yes. Was he a pro? No, he was like a champion. Yeah, yeah. No, he's like, really? Yeah, which is why like he's, he would, he would, he'd surprise you. He's pretty athletic. Like he, like he's been on my softball team. We played basketball. Like he's athletic. Like he can just pick a sport up and play it. And I remember always being like, hey, dude, like, I would have never guessed he'd be it. And then that he, I found out that years later after being friends and knowing him, he's like, oh, yeah, I was a badminton champion. You know what sport, a badminton ping pong, the, Karan. Yeah. You know what sport, it needs me. I've never seen it live. I've only seen it on videos. I don't know what it's called, but they have this big hook thing on their arm and they whip a ball. Oh, yeah. And it goes high. Highly. Highly, yes. The ball goes so fast. Is that what it's called? Brazilian, Brazilian sport. Yeah, it goes like 120 miles an hour from. It looks, it's like a scoop. Yes, yeah. It looks crazy. Highly. Yeah, and they throw the ball super fast.

1:03:27It's, uh, that's a crazy sport. It looks, yeah, there it is, right there. Oh, if it's hurling or there, there's a sport to, yeah, hurling. Scotland, that just, it's so brutal. What do you do? Well, you can throw it really fast and like it is dangerous. People like lose teeth all the time. Oh, yeah. Oh, that? Yeah, it's pretty fun to watch. It's like no smash. It's like no. It's like no. It's like no. It's no sport. But it's way more brutal. There is no sport that's crazier or more brutal than, uh, culture, historical in Italy. Oh, is that the one where they fight each other? It's, it's an ancient sport. They play it for hundreds of years. They fight, play. It's football that you fight to. It's called, it's like, it's like gang fighting with the LA, LA, L, C, I, O, and then separate words. Like polarity, but they beat the shit out of each other. No, no, it's literally, it's an ancient sport. Yeah, yeah. We've, you have to be from the town. That's right. To play for the team and it's four major cities in Italy. I would love to go to one of those and watch. Bro, literally, you get a ball, the goal is to get one ball into the other goal and

1:04:28is it like a, is it a once a year thing that happens or is it, it's not happening? No, it's a once a year thing. Yeah, I do say it's like a big, it's like a traditional thing. And you can do whatever you want to stop the guy. I'm sure he rushes. He has one that's competitive to this. Oh, well, Russia's got great. But this has got a pair of agree. This sport has been around for, I think, a thousand years. It's like a town pride thing is really what it is. That's like what, what the history wants. Let me see how old this is. Watch your trip, trip out over how old. This was like kings and queens were competing with each other with their teams. That's the ancient roots. The Roman army. No, keep going. 1400s young Florentines revived this game and evolved into the sport for wealthy aristocrats, Noble Men and even future popes. What? Huh? Whoa, dude. Or that one, Mayan sport where if you're the winner, you die. You die? Yeah, you say that place. It's like a once. Yeah, and when you win, like your prizes, you die. Yeah, it's great. Well, it's a game I would suck out on purpose. Yeah.

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1:06:33month. Here comes a show. Our first question is from Kathy Steinhilb. What is the best way to improve leg strength when you do not have a squat rack? You know, split stance exercises or right up this would be for sure. If you look at the biomechanics of a split stance movement, like a lunge or a Bulgarian, the front leg is squatting. It's a one way it's what? So one way it's what? It's by the way, some people athletic coaches, I should say, some athletic coaches argue that split stance movements are better than it's a solid argument. I agree. Athletics, I think I can see that. You can actually really load it too. It's not like something that's impossible to do. It requires a lot of skill and you have to master the balance of it. You can really increase strength with that movement. Yeah, the challenge. The challenge, so the thing with a squat is because you start to get really strong and you're able to load it very heavily, a squat rack starts to become necessary.

1:07:36Yeah. So it's like, okay, I can't pick this weight up off the ground and put it on my back. But split stance exercises give you a lot more room because you're not going to use as much weight, but the intensity and the tension is up there. Still there. I mean, that being said, some Bulgarian split squats with some wrist wraps could take you to long ways. A very far. A long way. Very far. Like, I mean, you could literally, if I have wrist wraps, I can hold on to 120's, 150's, and eat, I mean, that's a 300 pounds. Yeah, I couldn't do that. But that's my point. My point is, the heaviest thing going up. I can't even throw a racket too. That would be, I could, I could, I could wrist wrap that kind of way. You know what I'm saying? The other one is the front racking 150 dumbbells dog. I'm more impressed with the rack in the squat. The other one is like heavy step ups are also really good. And there's a balance component. So it's not going to be as much of a strength builder, but it is phenomenal. Yeah. So you could load, you know, grab a couple heavy dumbbells and, um, and do a very heavy step up onto a bench or a step.

1:08:37So there's a lot of great exercise you could do. And you really not missing out on a ton because you don't have a squat rack. Next question is from Make Wellness Elizabeth T W P. Before I started lifting, I was rather flexible. And now I seem to be tight all over, which is a bit frustrating. Am I not stretching enough or is this a normal part of the process? Mm. Could I have that last part? They also added Adam, Cowboys. Why do they say that? Why is it cause it's football season? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Football season. Yeah, football season starts this week. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So here's a deal. Um, when you're building strength with certain exercises, let's say I only do five exercises and I get really strong at them. Here's what happens. I get really strong in those movements. My body starts to recognize a discrepancy between the strength I have for that movement and the strength I have outside of that movement. And so what it starts to do is it starts to tighten you up so that you move less outside of where you have that strength. So you start to feel tighter. Now the remedy to this with strength training is to do lots of different movements to move

1:09:40in all different planes and use a full range of motion. In which case, you won't feel tighter. You'll have more stability. But let's say you only do squats, deadlift, bench press, overhead press, rows, which are great muscle builders, but that's all you ever do. Yeah, you're going to feel tight going laterally. You're going to feel tight moving outside. You're going to feel tight rotating because your body is just really strong in this one particular way. Yeah, and it's beneficial too for producing more force. So it's like, you know, you don't need to be all flexible, you know, trying to approach these like heavy lifts. So you know, it's really it's about, yeah, like managing that base upon like range of motion and then getting more familiar with it. Do you think this can be sometimes too, people that are overreaching in their training too a lot? I think cost-tintness. Yeah, because sometimes, sometimes this can be me and this is always like my sign that like I'm overreaching. It's like I'm pushing so hard the intensity in my training that I'm like constantly feeling soaring tight versus the appropriate amount of intensity.

1:10:40I normally feel really good. I normally leave the workout feeling really good. I feel like I lifted the day before, but I don't feel restricted and I move like, oh, wow, really sore there. Like that's all signs of overreaching for me. So possibly peer to that. Now if you're following like a map 15 protocol and not training to failure, that's probably not your situation, but sometimes that could be the possibility. There's also this, like you know, what determines your tightness? It's not the muscle, it's the central nervous system that controls the muscle. And so if your central nervous system is maintaining a certain amount of let's say tightness with a small muscle, when that muscle is larger, it can feel tighter because you're working with a larger muscle with the same kind of central nervous system signal. So it's important when you build muscle and strength to train in a well-rounded way because it's not without its own risks, like moving different planes of motion, move with the full range of motion, involve mobility and static stretching.

1:11:43And what you'll find is this isn't going to be a problem. There's bodybuilders, there have been pro bodybuilders who've maintained good balance in their flexibility. Flex Wheeler would do the splits on stage. Tom Platz was famous for his flexibility. And that's because they kept it up while they did their strength training and both of them were very comfortable. You just maintain it while you're building strength. Next question is from Superior 2524. How do you feel about not following a specific program, but rather letting your body kind of guide you on what to do in the gym? I find I'm more consistent and enjoy the workout much more when it's not a structured checklist. I focus on getting strong at compound lifts and I track and progressively overload. I just have a hard time staying on a program. Winging it makes my workout feel more like play, hence the consistency. So I love this. So long as you're not also going, but I wish I could see this and I'm not seeing the

1:12:43change I want. So the follow up statement to this is what matters to me because this is actually the place I want all my clients to get. This is where I operate from this place. I don't go into a workout with structure, but I also am not trying to make crazy change right now. I'm not going to have a specific goal that I'm trying to achieve. So I'm enjoying my workouts. I do them for the sake of it makes me a better father, it makes me a better husband, it makes me feel strong. I have good energy, I sleep better, I move more throughout my day. Those are the desired outcomes and treating my workouts like play will do that. But if I'm like, I'm trying to lose 3% body fat or I'm trying to get my squat up to this. I'm programming because then it makes it makes it a different person. For this person, I'd say you're fine because they're saying it keeps me consistent. I'm having fun, consistency, trumps, someone who's crazy, the workout isn't horrible, kind of trumps everything. But here's a deal, there are people who can wing it and also have excellent workouts. But these are people who know how to work out.

1:13:44They've been doing it for a long time. They've been doing it for a long time. They've had lots of experience. Adam goes into a gym, winging it, but he's also got 30 years of experience training his body, training other people. Somebody who's been working out consistently for six months suddenly says they want to wing it. I'm going to say no. You have no base to wing it from. So long as you have the structure in the program. So long as you're happy we results are though. Right? I mean, because you know what happens is people in no experience wing it. They either hurt themselves, overdo it or they usually do the same thing to me or the same thing over and over again. Right. Which again, my point, if you're happy where you're at and you're not trying to make change, if you're happy where you're at, if you're happy with it, my bad. If you're not trying to make change, you're happy where this is like how I would tell people that we're doing things like orange theory. Yeah. Like, hey, if you love coming here, the community's fun, you enjoy the workout and you're consistent and you're not trying to make change. Keep doing your orange theory.

1:14:44Keep doing your fun workouts. It's on my work. But if you come to me and you go, I don't like, I can't get this last, you know, five pounds of body fat off, right? Now, I'm not getting any stronger. I can't build my butt. I can't build it. Yeah. If you have goals that you're trying to do and you're winging the programming, well, I mean, there you go. There's your problem. And let me add to that, Adam, I've had this happen too where someone's like, I don't like structured workouts. I have so much more fun doing my thing, but I have these goals that I, you know, want to focus on. And I'll say, okay, well, give this a shot, follow the structured program. You know, it ends up happening most of the time. They come back and say, they say, you know what? I like it better because they like results. Yeah. But, yeah. I mean, you're exactly, that's my point is that if you, there's, there's, you, you want more from your workout, uh, following a structure program is going to give you more. But if you don't care, like I know, I know I'm sacrificing up a more aesthetic version of me or a strong version. I don't give a shit. I don't care right now. I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to do the things I said I'm trying to do and going with like winging

1:15:47it also to your point with 30 years experience. I can go like, this is probably best for my body. It may also be the complexity, like, or it's that they're having to draft it up themselves versus like, well, at times it's alleviating your right to have this all just like, oh, here, it's, it's, it's, you know, simple enough to where I can just go do this because it's right here. I just look at it. I do it. Now I'm taking my mind out of the equation. Um, so there's that part of it to which I like. It's just like, oh, you know, and to why we reduce it down like a 15 minute protocol, it's like the ultimate because it's like two exercises, you know, and it's so freeing. You're right. Do you, Justin, do you work out this way? Do you kind of go in and kind of have a rough idea? I have like, yeah, four or five compound lifts that I typically, if I'm not doing the 15 protocol, like if I do, like a three day schedule, that's usually the same here. I don't follow a program, but I have a general idea of where I'm going to do and then based on how I feel. But again, this is, I've been doing this for a while. What a change is as I'm there.

1:16:48Yeah. I believe like right now I'm all how I feel like right. I know over the week, I got to make sure I hit every body part once or twice. Yeah. It's I'm more of a 15 protocol. So the two exercises are typically compound lifts yesterday was front squats and dips. So those are nice. Those are my two movements. The way I decided it, uh, I had legs stuff to do. I had in front squad in a long time. Yeah. I'd been doing a lot of back squatting. Time to switch it up and do front squats. So I did front squats, hadn't done dips, uh, chose the machine. If I had the belt and the weight, I would have done weighted body weight. It's what I didn't have the belt and weight. So I did heavy on the on the machines. Um, and then I walked for 20 minutes. That was my, that was my workout. And that's how I say, uh, today my legs are really sore. Uh, so if I go in, I probably won't do anything for it. If I do, I'll do something very light, maybe hamstring focused. I'll do some like leg curl stuff. Just a touch of something like that. And the last time I did any, uh, upper body stuff, I did chest and shoulders.

1:17:50Or maybe a back exercise. Yeah. So probably some back, some back, a pull up or something will happen. Like that's, and so I'll literally go off of how I feel and what I've done. And that's kind of how what winging it looks like for me, but you're to your point. There's 30 years of experience of knowing how my body feels. What are the best bang for your back exercises? What have I been doing consistently? So all that is, even though I'm staying on winging it to just a nail home, your point, I also know what the hell I'm doing. Yeah. You're pulling from something. Yeah. Next question is from Burke himself. What would each of the four of you be doing if mind pump never happened? So we have to, we should guess for each other. And if we do that, are we being funny or are we being serious? I don't know. Cause I don't know. I think sometimes it's both funny and serious. You have the same time. So yeah. I feel like just going to be a football coach. Yeah. Oh, is that like, is that like a, can you just see him be either a, continue down the path of being a personal trainer, just becoming more exclusive with clients and stuff like that. Cause at one point he was training some pretty important people in the area, because

1:18:52excellent coach, but I could totally see him do some kind of coaching. Maybe it's not far off. I could see. Yeah. I actually really enjoy it. It's such a full time commit. Like I think that was the best reserve for me. The coaching. Yeah. It was just like, what am I doing? I don't have time, you know, like to, to give and like you really, it's a year round commit. Like it's not just like the seasons. So yeah, you were also doing it while you're running this business. That's what I mean. So it's like, if that, if you didn't have this, if I didn't have it said all, yeah, maybe you would enjoy, you'd enjoy the committed. Sure. That's not a bad call. What about Doug? What do you think would Doug would, would, would be, I think you'd be in Arizona cause your daughter's there. So you probably would have followed her out there. I think he would lead I will ask her trips. Yeah, I'm big into that. The CC looking be good. Sedona, I'll ask her like, wow. Where are your feather necklaces? Yeah. Yeah. Give us a big ride. His legs, you don't say.

1:19:52I can see him either teaching language or, or something involved cooking. I can see you doing either. Oh, man. Yeah. Oh, the cooking needs a good guy. Cause I know he did insurance. He did life insurance. Yeah, but I, which paid the bills. I don't, I don't feel like you're, you're not passionate about sales. Are you? Not sales. No, I'm not. I'm very interested in marketing though. So before my mind, mind, uh, mind pop, you know, that was the thing that I presented to Sal is like, let's market map Santa Bologna's create something and market it. And so I was very fascinated with marketing and how you could sell things online. So if it wasn't Sal, it would be somebody else. Yeah, yeah, that's true. You were really into that for sure. That's definitely true. I don't know about you. Adam, exotic car sales. Yeah. That's a really good guess, actually. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Cause I have always, I've always said that if like everything fell out, uh, I would do something in sales. Obviously selling things that are like, like, very expensive. So I could do a big rip. Oh, yeah, exactly. So yeah, exotic, exotic cars, yachts, mansions, I would fall.

1:20:54Yeah, yacht sales. Yeah, totally. For sure or private jets, I would totally be in one of those. I could totally get down like, yeah, so I mean, I would love that. I would love how do you get leads to sell a private? You don't. That's referral. Yeah. I'm a fact that I heard, I heard someone say something one time that that was really interesting that so you've never seen a Rolls Royce commercial or a Bugatti commercial, but you know where they were, what you don't see is that if you go to like a private jet event or where that where they're, they'll, Bugatti will be there. Oh, okay. They know that the buyers for private jet. That's right. Well, that makes sense. Right. And that's really why the rest of us have never seen you. That's it. We're like, well, how does Rolls Royce get these? Cause he's, how do they get these customers? They don't even waste their time with us. You know what I'm saying? They're at those, and that's, that's their customer base right there. And so, yeah, no, I would be super rich. That's a, gets a pretty good guess right there. Doug, I think I could see myself. It's like it's, so I might be like a Baptist preacher. That's a good guess. I'm not a doctor. I don't know. No, I know. I've just thrown it out there. You know that where he started his own religion.

1:21:56I'm not a star. Oh, dude. Oh, no, you can, here's man. You get a lot of friends and say that is what you would do right now. If you were not in my pump right now, you would be serving somehow. You'd be a pastor. So I would not be, I don't think I'd be a pastor. Yes, you would. I don't. You had to scratch that issue. But you have to go to school for that? No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you do. No, you do not have to be, no, you do not. To start your own church, I guess you don't. But I would, I would, I would, I would, I would go all of them. I know. Just, what do you mean? You don't have to do that for anything. For any church. These infinity schools, they will hire you. Yes. I've asked. Yep. Now because I'm trying to be kind of curious. I'm curious. I'm like, what is it so? Oh, so I mean, I mean, you're there. Like, that's not like a law that's a standard that a certain church might have. So maybe the church you asked has that standard. Yes, yes. But there is plenty of churches that would hire you to be especially with your background. Oh, gosh. Especially with how charismatic and good of a speaker and how you, how you have a photograph of memory you could read. So I mean, you would be great at it.

1:22:58So I totally think that. I would have five years ago if you asked me this question. I would. Five years ago, that would have not been the answer. Yeah. I think I would have liked to have been a teacher at college professor. Yeah, I liked that. But I mean, it's hard to say without fitness, what I would do. Because I love it so much. I love every aspect of it. Working with people. I love the science behind it. I love how it helps people. So to think of like what I would do outside of fitness is really, really difficult. Well, I mean, this is so much difficult. I don't think it's a difficult. I think what we all hit on things that outside of here. Doug, you probably still loves reading books around marketing and researching the latest trends on that. You love the conversations you have with Eli and them on that side. Justin's definitely on his side doing coaching stuff. I'm obviously researching exotic car markets and stuff like that. You, I would argue you're probably reading, watching or consuming biblical content more than you are fitness content. For sure. So I mean, I think it all aligns pretty well. That's probably what. I got to say though the fitness stuff, it translates so well.

1:23:59Do you guys know that? Oh, it's such a parallel. It's so wild. How? Do you remember? Do you remember? Yes, I didn't. OK. I feel like I should get my flower sometimes. I can't even flower the time. When you say what you see, because I used to tell you that it was like, bro, wait until you start to dive in the word. You're good. It's just feel like everything you start connected all these crazy. Yeah, it's all in there. It's crazy. You know, it's so funny. I said that forever, and I've said it to you many times. And then I do post the other day. I do the guys give me by the way you guys, when we do Instagram content, it's like we're don't that's not us coming up. They are. Read this, do this, wrote that right today. They give me like five or six books that they pick randomly out of the books that I've read. And they're like, hey, I want you to rate these. Oh, cool. Yeah. And then like in the comments is like, you know, where's the Bible? You know, so it's like, well, I didn't get the best number. Wow. First of all, it's like, yeah, great. Definitely, you know, that's a study because it was like, it was the past, read or study. Oh, you know, and so I did that for like these, like, I don't know, five books that I've

1:25:01read or that I didn't pick. They just randomly give me and then people are like, what about this? What about that? I'm like, what are you doing? You think I just ran around flashing everybody? Oh, my God. Hey, it's so good. And it's so good. We had a ton of my favorite ones. We had a ton of teacher at the time. That was first off. We'll be able to do it. You know what I'm saying? That was first off. You know, it was so good about that was I had no idea what that was. Yeah. So my favorite part about the business today is that we divide. It's all Danny, dude. That are our media team. Like I said, does all this stuff? None of us have any know what's going on. And we're all when I don't see you Justin doing his work. You don't see you and vice versa. So when I see it on Instagram, when I see it first time, it's first time. And obviously, when I see stuff that's odd, when I see Sal break down the science and someone that's like, okay, I've heard that in my time. But yeah, but when I see something that I haven't seen, like Justin running around in rope, look at his naked. I'm like, what am I watching? And I'm like, what I have no idea what's coming up. And then I see that go, oh, that was what people don't know. He was doing it to everybody. He's got clothes on underneath.

1:26:02But when he did to Doug, he surprised them. So that was a real reaction. That was. I'm still scared. I shot out to our media team. They do such a good job. I'm so proud of them and that makes it fun for me. You like injured a little bit. We want to talk about that. That was one of my favorite aspects. I just fell into the closet. That was one of my favorite ads I've ever seen. It's hard to not. Fake fault. You know, I'm glad other people are real. They did a good job. Everybody did good. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. It's mine, put me down. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at MindPumpMedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes maps and a ballad, maps performance and maps aesthetic, nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs.

1:27:05With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money bag guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is MindPump.