2939: This Forgotten Exercise Builds Your Back, Bulletproofs Your Shoulders and Boosts Your Bench

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4:06Do you want to bullet proof your shoulders? Do you want to boost your bench press? There's one exercise that does all of that. And it's one exercise. A lot of you are not doing. It's a phenomenal movement. You got to do it. It's great. We're going to talk about it today. The cross bench dumbbell pull over. Let's get to it. Forgotten great move. It is. It's a good exercise. What's great. So when you break down this exercise, which we're going to do, we're going to break it down. Why it's such an awesome exercise. But when you break it down, it becomes clear why this was such a prized movement in the early days of bodybuilding and strength training. Because back in the day, lifters prized certain exercises for two reasons. One, it was a feat of strength that seemed to matter. They didn't pick any exercise to see how strong they were. They were competing over a calf raise. They would do lifts that meant you were really strong. Like just an overhead press. That's an obvious one. Like, I have you weighed overhead. If you could lift more than I can, you're probably just stronger than I am overall.

5:08So that's a good example. The other reason why they prized certain movements is that you just noticed to change their bodies. It just developed great muscle, great definition, functionality. And back in the day, the cross bench pull over was one of those lifts. Like, this was a lift that bodybuilders used to compare each other over. They would compete with. In fact, they would even do it with a barbell at times to see how strong they were. And somehow it just kind of fell out of favor to the point where you actually still, even today, we talk about this exercise all the time. But even today, you rarely see people doing these in the gym, which is such a travesty because they're such a phenomenal. Wonder why? Yeah. Because it's such a valuable exercise. Maybe because it's hard to get into. No, I have a guess. What is it? I mean, what is the thing that we learn all these years of podcasting? Like the most simple, basic stuff that we talk about is the most appealing and shareable and people. And I think that movement is not obvious.

6:08It doesn't fall neatly into a camera. Oh, yeah. Like the average person, obviously, we have a lot of educated listeners. And so they're like, well, I wonder what exactly was it for? Like, most people would see a dumbbell pull over. A client who just hired you and you showed in that movement. You said, what are you working here? I guarantee they would go, I have no idea. Yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. And they'd probably be wrong. And so I think because of that, people are just unsure of what they're supposed to be feeling doing. And so I think that's why it's good. Because it's really not that hard to get into. No. You really don't need a lot of room. You can easily regress with weight and range of motion. There's a lot of reasons why it shouldn't be forgotten. But I do think it's one of those things. It's like when you walk in a gym and you see one of those really complex machines that don't make sense. Yeah, you're like, what is this? You know, it's a real walk away. I think you're right. And I think the other reason why is it's been replaced by inferior replacements. So if you look at like a straight arm pull them with a rope or a straight bar,

7:12you see that happen? I go into gyms and I see that exercise probably once a week. Whereas they see a dumbbell cross bench pull over, never. And if you looked at them both, you think they were the same. They're not. It's a similar movement, but they're not the same movement. Unbelievably inferior. Very yes. It's so different. It's funny you bring that up because I haven't thought about that. I haven't thought about it in a long time. And that was such a body builder movement. That day with a cable. Yes. Or the ropes. It was just why not always be like too wide. Yeah, with the cables I'm like, grab a dumbbell and the stretch that you get on the dumbbell, how much you could load it, like just so much better. It's interesting to say one is a mass building power strength building movement. The other one is like a squeeze isolation. Yeah, that's what you know, body builders use it as a finisher. That's right. Yeah, that's right. 100%. So let's talk about why this is such a phenomenal exercise and why it should be in your routine. Well, first off, it's a fundamental human movement.

8:13So there are certain human movements that you should train and strengthen because we consider them what are considered fundamental. So an easy one would be this like walking is fundamental, right? Humans need to walk. Now we don't need to exercise it as much because we still do it all the time. Squatting, overhead pressing. Squatting, overhead pressing, you know, being able to pull, being able to twist. These are called foundational human movements. Well, getting your arm, you're humorous from up here to down kind of cross body is fundamental. Our ability to throw is one of the things that makes us unique as animals. Like there is no animal that throws more accurately than a human. In fact, a five year old can throw with more accuracy than any, uh, primate. Uh, and that's one of the reasons why we became such successful hunters as we were able to throw with incredible power and accuracy. And if you look at the shoulder joint and how the, the humorous moves in conjunction with the scapula

9:14and how everything moves together and all the muscle attached, you could see clearly that it's designed to be able to throw really effectively. Well, a cross bench pullover strengthens this movement and keeping it strong protects your shoulder joint and it makes your whole body strong. That's the thing about fundamental human movements. When you strengthen them, they tend to have all kinds of crazy carryover. Example is a squat, right? A leg press is great. It's a good exercise, but it doesn't have the same carryover to everyday life like a squat does. And that's because a squat is a fundamental human movement. Whereas a leg press not so much. This is very true of the cross bench pullover. You know, I love that you, you compared it to that because one of the things that I've connected the dots personally with keeping pullovers in my routine, what it's done for my overall shoulder health, reminds me of what deep squatting is done for my overall hip health. Yes. Like just like I talked about how long it took me to get a real deep squat. And I had a lot of hip pain, a lot of low back pain.

10:16Once I had got the mobility to be able to do that, just maintaining a deep squat has kept my, my hips and my low back really healthy. I'd say the same thing about my shoulder, the ability to get a good full range of motion pullovers has kept my shoulders in real good. And one of the things I always know is if I start to feel like I'm locking up there, I tend to go right back over there and get back into my routine. So huge value when it comes to that. Totally. Yeah, especially to like, you know, the, I want to say it's like an antidote to throwing, but it's like basically, you know, being able to sustain, you know, that type of like forward movement with your upper body to then now we train it and we get that eccentric work and control. And like it helps keep everything intact and strong. It does. It counter it. It was. So the pullover. Now I'll be clear there are regressions to the pullover, but the pullover itself was always part of my arsenal for all my clients who had shoulder problems. So you may look at a pullover and think, oh, you know, those who are familiar with it,

11:17oh, that's a body-building movement builds a lot of muscle. For shoulder mobility, it's magic. And here's why when you have a client, when I would have a client that had shoulder problems, oftentimes it was when they were trying to lift their arm up above their head, they'd only get it up to a certain point. Oh, and then it would hurt and they weren't able to. But when the resisting a weight that brings their arm back over their head, suddenly they have shoulder mobility. Suddenly the shoulder joint opens up and we're able to now move the humorous, move the upper arm into this position that they can't normally bring into position themselves. And this opened things up. This pullover movement was like eight at a 10 times was the only thing I had to do to fix people's shoulder problems. This is what they found. This is why like stretching the whole techniques have changed over the years is because like when you actually contense the muscle up, you create more stability, which then sends that signal to your central nervous system. Yes, we're safe. We're safe going further in this range of motion because now we have the stability support system in place. Totally. You are forcing the body to like regain connectivity

12:19to that range of motion. I mean, I remember that aha moment. It wasn't that long ago. We would actually start a mind pump when we had seen brink. And we were doing 90, 90s. And we were trying to lift our back foot up. Oh, then he lifted it for you? Yeah. And it was just like you lifted it all the way up there. No, you can do it. Yeah, like it's there. And it's just like, but I lost that ability. But if he held it and then I pushed against it, like then also you would feel you getting reconnected there. That's what you're doing essentially with the weight in a pullover. Is you're letting the shoulder go in that place. You're because you're resisting against the weight. Now that everything's waking up in that area that's been dormant probably for such a long time, especially for our advanced stage clients. I just haven't had to do this. Yeah. So long. This is pruning the ability. So when you stand them up and you go, Hey, lift your arm up to your point. They go like this. And that's as far as I get it. I lay them on the bench, grab a weight, and then I also think all the way back and then they're resisting a weight. So now they're waking all that up and man, it's such a, it is. It reminds me. That's why I love that you could, you connected it to the squat because that's what it reminds me of.

13:21Like I had so much hip and low back pain. And it was, and I'm when I'm fit, right? I'm fit. I'm ripped. I'm lean, but I was only squatting down to parallel and I couldn't get deeper than that because of my lack of ankle mobility and my hip mobility. Once I addressed those things, got into a deep squat. Like it's, I've never had those problems again, just simply by lifting and moderate weight, just being able to take that through full range of motion is changed everything totally. It's also one of the very few isolation exercises because it is an isolate. It is a single joint movement, but it doesn't behave like a single joint movement. It actually builds muscle like a compound lift, which is wild. It pairs to like muscles that aren't normally paired together. That's a, yeah, that's a great point. That's a flat and triceps. Yep. Whereas typically it's flat and biceps. Typically when you're doing a back exercise, it's biceps that are helping with a pullover's triceps. But back to the point that I was making, isolation movements don't typically build muscle like compound lifts. Everybody knows that. You also get a little bit of chest activation.

14:22This one builds like a compound. Like if you, if you gain 20 or 30 pounds on your dumbbell pullover, you build muscle like if you did a pullup or you're doing a row. Yeah. It's one of those, like it's one of those isolation. Then I think this is one of the reasons why bodybuilders used to compete with this or compare this lift because it was a mass builder. It definitely doesn't act like in fact, I'll put it in a lift or in a routine as an isolation lift. But I know when I do it, like I'm kind of getting the same muscle building effect you get from a compound lift, which is really cool. And in fact, off the top of my head, I can't see. I'm like, as you're talking here now, I am trying to rack my brain like, what other movement has these properties that like is so unique? It's considered a single joint or so an isolation movement. But yet has this like three and those are decent, like you're talking about the lats, the chest and the triceps, like the three big posing type of muscle. Like there's just not very unique. It is. Like what else would be something like that? I don't know and I don't know of too many strength training exercises that move from back to front

15:27in that way. Yeah. It's like I can't, you really can't replace it. Well, into what I like about it, we do the cross bench and you know, you're bridging that whole time so you're really driving, you're working on leg drive too, which I feel like it has you know, some carry over to bench because of the fact that you're anchoring so hard by, you know, lighting up your legs. I'm, you know, going through this whole range of motion. You also get a great ab too. It is very much so. You do. Yeah, unique in like it's compound type of benefits, yet being an isolation. It's also great for thoracic mobility. So, all right, what is that? So think of somebody who's older, who's got kind of that rounded upper back. I don't mean necessarily the shoulders are forward, but you notice the upper spine, the back. So in an extreme case, we're like a humpback, right? So you watch cartoons and they got like the scary bad guy with the humpback or whatever. You know, I was at the gym the other day and I saw this in a couple elderly kind of older

16:28individuals where they, you know, they're coming in and they're working out, but they've got that really rounded kind of thoracic area, that the thoracic part of the spine, which is that upper back area. An improving mobility there would be moving it in the opposite direction. Now, we could always work on rows, try to pull the shoulders back, try to bring the shoulder, the chest out. This is kind of what you would do. But here with a cross bench pullover, the resistance is making that thoracic mobility go in that direction. It's moving the shoulders in a position, pushing the chest forward to improve that mobility. This was one of the big benefits I got from the exercise. I have a tendency to have a little bit of an over rounded thoracic area. And when I do pullovers, it's better. Why the bench is pushing up on my thoracic part of my spine. I'm using that resistance. I'm expanding my ribcage, pulling back and it stretches it and moves it in the opposite direction. Well, and since you're in the corrective direction too, one of the things again that's so great about this is how easily you can regress this. Yeah.

17:28I mean, it's one of those movements where as a trainer, I could put my hand as far as I want them to go. Let's just get there and then have them pause, connect there. And then over weeks we're getting deeper and deeper and further and further. And you could start really, really light. I mean, I started clients with like a little light 10 pound dumbbell that they're doing and get work on that range of motion and connecting and then deeper and deeper. And so it's a really easy movement that as a coach, I can really regress and progress somebody really nicely over time without risking a lot of injury, which is always a great go-to move when you're a coach. And again, it's great for the lats. You want to get that nice V taper in your lats. You want to stretch the lats, load them in a stretch position. Yeah. It's one of those exercises that does it. It's also good for ribcage expansion. Now, I'm going to be clear here. It's not going to give you a bigger ribcage. The reason why I'm saying that is in the 60s and 70s, body builders used the dumbbell cross-banch pullover as a way to give them a bigger ribcage.

18:29You might be thinking, why would they even want that? Well, back in those days, body builders used to like to show off their side chest pose. And body builders still do this today. A side chest shot is one of the staple poses that you do as a body builder. And when you do it, you want to stick your chest out, you're on the side, you're flexing your bicep. But back in the 60s and 70s, they really would stick their chest out. And they used to all brag about who could put a glass of water on top of their upper chest. So you needed a big ribcage to do it. And they gave them that thickness from the side, right? So that you didn't have this flat ribcage. And they thought that the pullover made the ribcage bigger. Now, this is not what's happening. It's not giving you a bigger ribcage. You're not going to exchange necessarily a bigger ribcage looks. But what you are doing is stretching and strengthening all the muscles that connect the ribs to each other. And this is important, everybody. If you've ever pulled out a rib, if you've ever done an exercise, you're like, oh, I feel like a rib is out. Or it's something happened there. What happened is you've pulled or tightened one of those inner costals or one of those muscles that connect the ribs together.

19:30Why is that important? Why would I want strong muscles or strong connections between my ribs? Well, first of all, they float. So they attach to the spine and they come around and nothing connects them together, except for the muscles and connective tissue in between. And when that's strong and stable, it gives you better ability to rotate. It gives you better power. Makes you more stable. But it gives you more torque. It gives you more stable when you press overhead, when you press in front, protect it's impact. It protects you against impact. It's very important. And when those muscles are rigid and tight and not strong, your ability to do a lot of exercises goes down. And this is one of the only exercises that through the movement, you're expanding the ribcage and bringing it together, thus strengthening some of those muscles. So I saw you did that and you had the story today. And I saw you did your... All my favorite old classics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you reading something or was that just on your mind? No, it was just on my mind. Today is my day-to-day life thing or whatever. And I was like, you know, what are the lifts that you never see people do in the gym that

20:31are just so awesome? And that was the first one that came to mind because some exercises I know why we don't see them. It's because they're really hard, like a front squat. Why doesn't anybody front squat, they suck. They're really hard. But I pull over and it's like, you guys, you gotta do this. I just saw it was a trailer. I think it's Barbell films, but they're gonna... Like it's like a short documentary that they're making of like 1920s lifters. No way. Yeah, really? Which I thought would be rad. So hopefully they come out with that soon. But yeah, I saw this trailer. It was cool. They had all those old-time lifters in that bodybuilders to the performers. We should research who's behind it as far as like the director who thought to put together a part of it make for a good interview. Just tell them. And somebody put that together. There's a reason why they put that together. And a lot of people don't know much about that era of lift. That would be an interesting conversation. Yeah, it was a cool area. What's interesting to me is that all those... They all had like regular jobs. They all had hard jobs. They weren't performers. Yeah, you weren't making a ton of money. Yeah. And yet they had the time to go lift weights and do that.

21:33And look amazing and be real strong. Did they also care about what they thought was building a roomkage too to exaggerate the vacuum pose too? Was that also part of it? The vacuum pose came because of the... Then it became about like how you looked. So it was small waist. Yeah, like how... That's what I mean, like how dramatic of it. Yeah. Big rib cage, small tiny waist. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's when they started doing that. That's fun. I got to talk about... You brought up the day in the life and in there I did like a little segment where I talked about what I liked and didn't like about you guys. It was kind of funny. But I got to talk about being in the room with you and you negotiate at them. Yeah. So yesterday I just got to tell you how I didn't insist, dude. It is... So puckers up. So... So to you. Don't go put it right in. Everybody gets uncomfortable. Listen, you brought it up. Listen, like negotiations with Adam, like you either have to leave the room or you have to really focus on trying not to talk or... That's so uncomfortable. It's true. Because you feel like he's like going too hard. Yeah, he's like... I'm gonna see all this land. Where's he going?

22:33That's so hard dude. It's so difficult to be it. But he pulls it out every time. Afterwards I like it. Oh, I went well. I thought you were losing that dude. Where did you get that from? You know, I think... It's definitely a skill, but it's also a talent for sure. Yeah, I've done it a lot at this point, right? I mean, almost 45 years old and I've had a lot of conversations like that. What I'd say it really stems from is... And I wish I remember the moment that this unlocked for me. But... And I want to attribute it to a Jack Welch book called Winning. If I hope I'm referencing the right book that I got it from of just radical candor and how important that is in business negotiating. And you know, just being so honest. And when you really think about it, it's really difficult to do that. There's a part of our human nature that wants to hold back or a piece. The other person. And a lot of people...

23:33Like a lot of sales people are manipulating this and that. And the more I've learned to lean in, just saying what's on my mind and what I believe to be true, it comes off sometimes a little rough or brass. But what I have found in that process is at the end of the day, even if people go back and forth and can be combative with me, they tend to respect the conversation, the honesty. And sometimes I know I could probably push too far and I'll say that. I'll just be like, listen, I'm just direct with you. And so, or I'm just being straight with you. Like I could be as you. And so I've learned to even be like, if someone gets really... Yeah, because you have to be both... Because I was thinking about this yesterday. Because again, yesterday we're in the room and you're negotiating. And every time I'm in the room, I'm more like my god. But I think you have to be both the best and worst person to negotiate against. I would say best because you're going to get straight out.

24:38And it's not like you're trying to rip anybody off. I've never heard you. In fact, I've heard you negotiate with partners and not push too hard because you're like, we can't deliver. I'm only going to do what we can deliver. I've heard you say that many times. So that makes you the best. You're also the worst because somebody trying to get a little bit of what it can happen. It's not going to happen with you. It's just not going to get up. I think what you're saying is, I think it's just the... It's just being really... I have a lot of conviction when I'm honest about something. And I've also, too, I've done my homework and my research. I was just going to say because you know what you're worth. It's not like you're just going in to get the best... Yeah. That's why you're so confident. So, Katrina manages a lot of obviously our partners now. So I'm not in the thick of it as much as I used to be when we first started. So when she wants to bring me into a conversation, I got a call set up for you. I want you to talk to so and so on this company we work with at this time.

25:38And I won't just go into that conversation. And then something like you saw yesterday play out. I'm like, oh, I need to know this. I want this. I want this one. And then I'll study all the stuff. And then I'll be like, okay, I feel very confident about this. I think this is fair. This is what I want. And then that's exactly what you're going to get for me is I'm going to just go straight for that. I'm not going to waver and I have conviction that I believe it to be true. And I just will shoot it that way. And it's not... I don't think it was natural. I think I've practiced that so much. I've practiced because it's not easy. There is a part of me. We talk about this with our journey of interviewing people. It's in my nature to want to be liked by people and friends. Like, I think we all have that. And so, you know, there's a part of that you're wanting to do is like, you don't want to feel rude or mean or you don't want to come off aggressive. And so internally you're wrestling with that, but you know you need to be honest and truthful.

26:39And so it's like, I'll have a conversation sometimes. I'm like, you know what? That wasn't fully honest. I didn't say what I felt. I was trying to appease that person or I was trying to be too friendly. And it's just like, gosh dang it. And those are the ones that never go well. If it doesn't go well. And so I would always evaluate afterwards and it's just like, that's my fault. It's my fault because it wasn't truthful. I wasn't honest. It wasn't direct. And yeah. And like I said, I've had a lot of people afterwards will say things like, hey, I want, thank you for being honest. Yeah. I think that the big part of it, because on its face, I think someone would think that a good negotiator is just somebody that gets the best deal. And I don't think that's necessarily it. That's part of it. The other part of it is that you can't get the best deal unless you lack integrity. But if you have integrity, which I think you need to be good and business for a long period of time, right? Lack of integrity might get you only so far, but then it's not going to be so super far. But I think it's because you know what we're worth, but you also know what they're going to get and what's going to value them.

27:39And so you're not going to go like, again, I've heard you say to, I've heard you talk with us and say, I'm actually not going to charge that much because we can't deliver. Yeah. So it's not like you're just trying to get the best deal, but that's what makes you confident. Yeah. But makes you go in. Yeah. And I think I think in making a deal, it's so uncomfortable though. It is, I mean, it can be uncomfortable even for me too, because there's like, I don't want to. You get excited. Or is it a little bit, there's a rise in your element and a adrenaline to it for sure. But a really good negotiator deal, both parties walk away and maybe in the moment they don't feel happy because maybe the opposing person who's on the other side of it with me is trying to, you know, weasel or get a deal. But if I did my job really well, then they should be happy. Like they, like, they'll get what they deserve and I will get what we deserve and it's fair. And that's like, that's a really good deal. And I pride ourselves or myself on going into a situation like that and keeping a, I want

28:41to, I want a lifelong partner that we make, which is why if you've been listening to the show for a very long time, most of our partners have been with us for a very long time because I try and find what I think is very, very fair. But you know, I think what you guys get to see and where it can be uncomfortable is when you know the other side is trying to weasel or do that. You're just like, yeah, this is not going to go well for that. Because you're not going to get most of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Waiting and listening to their reaction. Well, there's a lot of bluffing that happens. That's what's uncomfortable. Like you're not sure. And so you're like, Oh, God, are we going to, like what's going to happen? We'll lose this where we're at. I'm going to get. He's like, you're going. And so I'm over here, like sitting that uncomfortable silence. Yeah. Some over here to stretch. I'm going on Instagram. I'm going to feel like I'm going to see. That's probably the part that's fun is what you're calling a bluff is, is fun. There's, there's something about when you feel confident. You know, you've done enough research and, and you got enough.

29:42One thing that I learned is when I'm in the room with someone who is, who knows what they're doing, I will not, even if I disagree, I will never jump in or speak out. There's a scene in the Godfather. Oh, yeah. There's a scene in the Godfather that illustrates it well when I think it's in the first Godfather where Marlon Brando's character, he's negotiating or talking to these, to, to these other guys. And they want to start selling drugs and they want the Corleone family to jump in. They're offering all this money and, you know, the, the lead guy, Marlon Brando's character is like, he's saying no and his oldest son pipes up a little bit. Hey, dad, but what about, and he looks at his son, gives him a look. And so son quights down after that, he looks at his son, he goes, never speak out against the family in front of other people. That's what ends up getting Marlon Brando's character shot is because the other people saw, oh, if we kill him, then the oldest son, that's right. That's right. Yeah, it's just illustrates that. That's right. Was it the right book, Doug? Yeah, you're right. Okay. Yeah, there's a long time ago. What was the quote? Don't ever take sides with anyone.

30:43What was that? Oh, yeah. Don't ever take sides with anyone against the family. Well, this is Michael Corleone. Yeah. I totally, now you say that. I'm like, oh, I remember that. See, that's such a great scene. And that was, it was right book. Yeah, Doug. Yeah, correct book. Yeah, yeah. Jack Welch. Jack Welch winning, right? The arguing the lack of the honest communication and the biggest dirty little secret business. Yeah. All right, I got some, some cool studies on Shilogy. We haven't talked about them in a while or about the supplement Shilogy or, you know, the gummies that Organifi has, which by the way, Shilogy is getting popular now, although it's been used for a long time, everywhere. It's everywhere, but some Shilogy is not the real stuff that comes from or not palatable at all. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's another one. But it's not the real stuff. They'll make it in a lab. It's not the real stuff. But it's just sources of real Shilogy and that's the one that Organifi uses. So they sourced it really well. But anyway, I looked up the studies on it and it's, you know, it's pretty remarkable

31:46on how well it works for certain things. So it does raise testosterone pretty reliably and healthy middle aged men. So we talked about that bone mineral density and postmenopausal women with osteophenia. So they actually gave it to women with osteophenias before osteoprosis, postmenopausal, no changes in their lifestyle. So they weren't having them lift weights or anything and they saw an improvement in their osteophenia. Then it's good for fatigue-related strength and collagen breakdown. And then here's what I like, skeletal muscle gene expression. So check this out. They gave obese adults 250 milligrams twice a day for eight weeks and what they show was an upregulation of a cluster of extracellular matrix genes that support collagen connective tissue at the gene level. And it's like this interesting strange compound that oozes out of the mouth of the mule. It's a car, right? It's a car out of a tree or something. No, it's not a tree.

32:46It's not a tree. It's an old organic material that's been pressurized and broken down over thousands of years. It's so wild. Yeah. I think I asked you this before and I was wrong. It's because it's not an adapted gym but it kind of acts like one. It does and it's used in aeravetic medicine. So aeravetic medicine is used as a shellage for a long time. So it's one of those interesting. I know. What would you, what category of would you fall if it's not an adapted gym but it has a adapted gym like properties. It's not a mushroom and doesn't have so what you know, you probably could label it as an adapted gym. You know, maybe Doug look up on that. Because he helps with stress, right? Yeah. Well, in aeravetic medicine, if they label it as an adapted gym, I'm not sure if it's a classic adapt, it is. It is. Oh. Yeah. That's wrong. And it does act that way. Yeah, very good. Well, I mean, I listen to when you describe it and I'm like, that sounds very, yeah, it sounds very much so like a traditional adaptor gym. So it is then. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

33:47I just saw a Venn diagram that went viral on X and they labeled it the addiction economy. You guys, this is really bad. It is not good. I'll pull it up right now. So when it comes to addiction, typically men have more addiction issues than women. So I don't know if you guys knew that or not. That's like a statistic. Okay. So this women have it more than men. No, men tend to have addiction issues. Of course. Of course. So you have theories on that. You have guess why you would think that we might be more dopamine driven. I'm not sure. It's because we're, we hold more shit in. That may be it. That might be it. That wouldn't you. You know what? You, one of the things that women are better at than for sure than us is like sharing and communicating with others, which would be thinking more coping. Yeah. And so it's a coping method you would think for us is that we're holding all in. And so Medicaid with drugs, alcohol, things like that. Or I mean, that would be my guess. I think, I think, yeah, it says biological differences, social pressure and behavioral

34:51tendency. I mean, that would fall under social pressures and behavioral tendency. Well, so check this out. Okay. So these are what would be classified as addictive behaviors or qualities for certain things. So check this out. This is of, this is young men. So this is how old are these men? Age 18 to 29. So men 18 to 29. One at a very four men watch pornography daily. So they consider that addictive. Okay. Almost one in four. So almost one in four gamble daily. I didn't know that. I did not know gambling was that big of a deal for young men. I'm sure that went up too. Oh, in young men, it's crazy. It's like a high school problem. This is like a problem that like my buddy who's like, was an principal and like, they have problems with like all the kids that are doing it now. Okay. You're supposed to be like 18 and older to be able to do it, but they're obviously there's the other way. You're regulating it. Yeah. So majority of young men play video games daily. They consider that addictive kind of. So trip off this. This is where it gets crazy.

35:51So the Venn diagram shows what percentage of men do all three daily one in eight one out of eight men between 15 to 29 watch porn gamble and game. Every gamble game day. So all of them all of them. Oh, wow. On a daily basis. For that's more than 10%. Well, that's crazy. That's crazy. But what's crazy is all of it. Yes. One of it is already one of them is destructive. Right. You do an all three of them. That's very and I bet you if you looked at those young men, because if you're doing all three of those daily, you're probably not socializing at all. You're super isolated. You're probably have no sense of purpose because like how much time do you have to have a sense of purpose when you're playing video games gambling or don't talk to girls. Obviously. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So and with that is probably a high rate. I would guess of depression. Yeah. And what do you think Justin? Do you think it's part of the conspiracy theory that I sent over to you in the social media? I mean, what's that? Is there a new one? Well, it's not brought to some.

36:52I think a long time ago that DARPA like they've so was it life log is what it is called at the other program for collecting data from individuals. The CIA. And so then it weird and they fact checked it on there. We could fact check it as well. I mean, actually look at that life, life log CIA program. How long did it run and when did it shut down? Yeah. Literally the day after they shut it down Facebook started becoming. Oh, let me guess because we're already we're giving them our information for. So yeah, that's the life. So we need a corporate. So it can't be attached to the government now. Oh, so now we have to live in the private sector and they also were alluding to the fact that maybe even Amazon was another one. Oh, I don't know. So the fear is way they collect all the information. So the idea was get it get document or basically get people to share all of their personal for free for free without without it without it, you know, and

37:52it's not going to get February for 2004 is when Facebook launched. When did the when did life log for 2004? What? They're not even hiding it. I mean, what? I mean, that's wait. I mean, the fact is they didn't even wait 24 hours. So I mean, that's like literally somebody. It was like a click of a button on the computer dog. It was like, let's in this one. We're opening this one. Wait, so look up life just life. What is life log? So was it them collecting information? Uh-huh. And what are they? What were they collecting all the data that we would give on? Yeah. Yeah, just probably scan the internet. Oh, and looking for, yeah, problematic people. It was a 2003 research project by the US military designed a track in an archived person's entire daily existence into a massive digital day. Of course, you don't need that anymore. Because everybody gives it to you. Everybody gives it to himself. Yeah, really. And Facebook also owns Instagram. So they've got Instagram, Facebook, where we, and WhatsApp, and WhatsApp that we were putting all this. Wow. So, geez. So there we go.

38:53And then if Google, because the part of here was Google and Amazon, we're also attached to all this too. And so if you're, if you've got all of our search history, you've got all of our documents, a picture, a tracking where we go every single day, the store, like we're all feeding into this like super computer. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys remember the movie X Machina? Yeah. And remember that robot and how she studied, she gave it, she basically told them she studied all of his searches, all the things. So she could turn into like the perfect person to manipulate him. Right. Exactly. So fit all his categories of his interest and yeah, he'd fall in love with her. Oh, God. That's crazy. Isn't that wild? That's crazy. That's got to be a crazy coincidence. I mean, I'd what's so crazy about that. I feel like it would be so brilliant of them to just wait 15 days to throw people at me. I lose that data, bro. You got to get all that data. Yeah. No, but I mean like to like at least show that it was, I mean, that's like just purely like

39:53we don't give them F. We're going to. We're going to do that. We're turning this one off. We're turning this one right on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's all kind of scary. Like when you look at like how, because when you're addicted to drugs and alcohol, it's pretty obvious and everybody knows it's bad. I don't think there's anybody. I don't think anybody would be like, oh, that's, you know, that's okay. But like porn, gambling, video games every single day. That's destructive. It is. It's destructive on you. And there's young men right now, more than 10% of men in that age group are doing all three of them every single day. So they're stuck in the room. Do you think, I mean, I like this idea of my space, like coming back and not having algorithms to like dictate what you look at and scroll through and all that. I'm not sure if people are going to buy into that, but like, you know, some kind of a social network that doesn't add in all this, like, I'm bits of, I'm super curious on how it's going to pat out. I'm following it too. I'm so, people might not like it.

40:55They might like it because it's not exactly what my theory is. I don't think, I don't think, I mean, they say they want it. They like this stuff. Yeah. So you're a brick phone. I mean, there's a part, right? I think you even have to, we all have to admit that, you know, you're getting fed stuff that you're interested in. You know, so I mean, I, I have now purchased a lot of things. They've been way better. Yeah, that have been popped in my feet because it's something that I would like or want. And it's because they've figured out, you know, I buy all things I've liked and tracked and been to. So sure, there's a part of me that goes like, oh, I'm totally being manipulated. But there's the other part of me is it's like, well, I'm glad I found that thing. It was there. Or that, and it could be, it's found this and it could be innocent too, right? Like, it's not just like, for so, like, I bought a lot of stuff for my wife. That is just like, oh, wow, that's cool outfit. I would have never found that or saw that or I'd never heard that brand or like, you know, and so because it's getting fed. So it's like, you know, if that, if the, if you shut the algorithm down and it's just purely like, you know, OG Facebook or OG MySpace, where I'm connecting to my family

41:57friends is like, you probably, you're saying you're saying that I, you know, I used to be really hard to find in music as well. Cause like, there's no real like one, I heard somebody talking about this the other day. I think it was, um, what's his name? One of the Beatles, the main, main singer Paul, not Paul John Lennon. Yeah, his son was talking about this. I know I can't wait for his name. But, uh, yeah, he was talking about like when MTV, he used to hate it because it was like, you know, all this like pre prescribed like pop, you know, music. Um, but he's like, there's no, if you, if you could pinpoint one like specific place, where it's like, well, there's like a culture here. You know, there's like something that you follow it. Cause then you, you see like, you get introduced to a lot of things and, and people, and you see, you know, reflect at school at work. And, you know, and he's like, there's just like a multitude of cultures now. Yeah, it's like, it's so to be able to just stumble across something is pretty rare that you're going to like. And, but now what I've seen bands like it's, it's, um, actually interesting because you'll,

43:02you'll see some bands that they'll just put out like one track and then they try to like, you know, emphasize the fact that they're introducing you to the sound. Like I just came up with this riff and then they're putting this riff and you find out this band's been around for like 20 years. Yeah. You know, but it's like, they're, they're trying to like throw chum out there. Uh, so people will just like, it'll come up on their Facebook algorithm. Like, oh, that's interesting. And I, I, I've been introduced to about 10 or 12 new bands that way. Well, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard to unify us. And I'm sure that we, there's lots of cases that you can argue why that it's so beneficial that we have all this diversity and different things. And you know, I saw, I was watching something that was highlighting like just like, uh, always a book that it's a book that I'm in right now. The Bob Iger book, uh, does it? Well, Disney guy and talking about how, you know, um, there was a time just what 30, 30, 40 years ago where, you know, we, we were all watching the same channel at the same time. Yeah.

44:03A show came on at 7 p.m. Everybody was like the most popular show in country. Everybody was watching. And we're all talking about the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So then the next day at school or work, we were all talking about that because the only way you saw it was you had to catch it, which caused all of us to you like at the same time. Man, so much, uh, easier to keep kind of everybody on the same page now, everything. So well, think about how, like, how fragment, how different my wife is actually a pretty good stickler about this usually, but my kids will want to watch something and they'll disagree because you know, kids are kids. I want to watch this. I want to watch that. So the temptation is to be like, okay, we're going to leave you 20 minutes to TV. You get to watch the TV and then you watch an iPad and she goes, no, you're going to pick something and have to watch it together. It's very different experience. Yeah. We're going to be in the same room and watch together versus all of us doing our own thing. It's a very different. Oh, I saw that so much less social. Oh, it was such an unlock for me to, uh, for when we, because it's now been, what are we at? I mean, I, you could probably go back on the podcast when I first announced that we completely

45:06removed the iPad from Max. Yep. We're coming up on a couple of years now. And, uh, yeah, but he gets to watch TV. We totally let, uh, but we watch as a family. That's right. Yeah, it's, it's on it. And it is so different. As it being a seven year old, he rarely sits through anything all the way through. He normally is watching and then he's playing with his leg goes, or he's wrestling with me on the couch or it's just like, it is way different. It is nothing like, uh, when we allowed an iPad and he could watch a cartoon on there because he was locked. I mean, it was all consuming. And that was the big switch for me when I, when I realized that when he could be in the, on the couch next to me and I was allowing him to watch a cartoon and then I would try and engage him and he, like, he almost like couldn't hear me until I put my face in in front of him and was like, Hey, and then it would, and it would, so it was, you could tell it was innocent. It wasn't like he was being rude or like he was just locked in. I'm like, wow, that's like, this is, we got this guy to go. Now, you can put, but putting it up there, huge difference, huge difference. You know, as we were talking earlier about this addiction economy with young man, which

46:07was really alarming. Like I said, that, that Venn diagram went viral. I'm like, what would be the solution? Like, just clear cut solution because you could say, turn those things off. Don't do it, whatever. But people don't operate that way. Usually it's like do this rather than just don't do that. Right. And young men in general, you know, therapy can be valuable, but therapy works better with women, typically than men. And it's just, we're wired. Not only that, I don't think that's the solve. No, but my point with that is I've just therapist or talking about things. Doesn't work is not that it's bad or that doesn't work, but men, the data shows is they tend to be better with like goal. Like do this instead of like, let's talk about this and talk about application. And I'm thinking about, what could young men do? And I'll tell you, I'll give you the prescription. If you're listening, you're a young guy and you feel lonely and you're stuck in this pattern, try this. Lift weights, go to church and volunteer. If you do those three things right there and you do them consistently, even if you don't believe in them, even if you think it's crazy, if you just did those three lifting weights,

47:10go into church and volunteering a little bit, that would change so much. I'll tell you something else that I shared this on my story actually just last night or the night before. One of the things I've been trying to practice with, so I'd be doing the sauna every single night. And many times I'm by myself, sometimes Katrina's in there would be, but most times I'm by myself. And since I'm in a sauna, no tech, I'm in there for 20 plus minutes anyways. I'm like, you know what? I want to try and be consistent with gratitude practices. The reason why that was sparked was I found myself, you know, chopping, looking for things that I don't need and desiring more stuff. That's good self-awareness. I need to be more grateful and successful. And so I'm like, what am I doing? You know what I'm saying? Like, when I really do an evaluation of my life, I have a better life than I dreamt of as a kid. What do I need more? I don't. So anyway, so I'm like, I'm proud of this.

48:11And then then when I wanted to do while I was doing this and I shared this in my story of the notes of like, I don't want to be so generic of, I'm grateful for my wife. I'm grateful for my, like, I wanted to look into was things, either people were things that I would have say when I was 16 years old, been like, man, be so amazing. So I'll give you, so funny, right? You've noticed, have you noticed me using the same like crazy? Yeah. This came from that, right? Man, if I had that when I was 16, I lost my mind. Well, if you, if 16 year old me said I had the baddest simulator, race car simulator at his work, like he would, and I'd, oh, he would just be so disappointed. So I'm sitting in there. And so what I try and do is re and so what I shared is like what it, what it ends up sparking is like this thing that I, that's sitting on a shelf somewhere, collect and dust, or maybe a thing that I haven't taken care of and appreciated because I've got two or three of it now or what, and so I think what we've, what's happened to this, and bringing this

49:16full circle to what you're talking about is that a lot of men, we're such a consumer. We have so much access. We have so much stuff that we've lost appreciation for a lot of great things in our lives. And we've defaulted to these addictive, mind numbing things when you may not even have to go out and go that act of stuff is like maybe just revisit some of the things that you thought of years ago, you really wanted to do or have and you already have it. And maybe go show some appreciation towards it. And so that this is just me sharing personally what I noticed. Like yeah, and another thing to share like, you know, I was part shopping, right, as if I need that. And actually what it sparked up is like, you know, I've, like, I, I love them being, I actually enjoy the process of cleaning them and detail them. It's like, man, I had two or three of them that weren't even detailed and clean. And it's like, you know what? Like, I'm going to spend the day doing that. And so yeah, there's like, it's unlocked some things for me.

50:18And of course, while I'm doing all those things, I'm not. I had such a great moment with Jessica recently because there's definitely times when she's so like a kid, so grateful and joyful over things that I'm like, like we were, we went car shopping for her and there were two options of SUVs. And one was the nicer, more expensive one, okay? And it was the one I thought for sure she would want. So I was kind of pushing her in that direction. And we were talking and she goes, no, actually I want this other one. I'm like, I thought she wanted it because it was the cheaper one. She's like, no, that's the one I like. So I go, okay, so I get it. And you should see her with this car. It's not like it's the most extravagant, whatever car. But she's like, I want to do a photo shoot with it. I want to go park it somewhere and take photos of it. She's so like grateful and just, which is like that. I tell you what is a husband, you know, if you provide for your wife and then you do something and then you see that, that it just makes me want to go.

51:19You know that I work twice as hard. So obviously, you know, we talked about my stuff. Like so for a lot of my early years, I attracted a lot of other girls that liked a lot of the material stuff I did. I just to echo what you're saying. I love that trade-about-contrination. And I actually, it's such a great thing to have. And I would have, if you would have asked me when I was younger, I would have thought that I would have married or been with someone that was more like me. What I have found through dating and everything and where I'm at now in my life is like, it actually makes the, the buying things for her and do stuff way more enjoyable for me because she appreciates such little things. She doesn't need the most expensive thing or she doesn't care about name brand. It's like she likes what she likes and she's so appreciative of it. So it also is way more fulfilling and I get way more joy for doing it. So I could totally relate to like how awesome that is to have a partner. Yeah, she's like a little kid. It's so funny. It's well, it's interesting. You talk about like kind of getting back to like hands-on and you know, like looking at

52:19those types of things and what I used to enjoy a lot was like building things with my dad. And like even when we first started a podcast, I was like at my first house and we were like building ramps together and the kids were really little. Like just that entire process was like so fun for me. So like it's cool because school kind of like introduces that again. And so like ever it has this like little project and he's like, he always, he just comes up with ideas. I get really excited about you know, it's like, I'm like, oh man, but I'm like, I don't want to like step in and like do the whole thing for him. You know, because I'm just like, oh, it's so cool. It's fun. So him and his buddies like came out with this idea like they have, he has a couple classes where they allow these like skateboard, little finger skateboards. Yeah. And so like, you know, back in the day, they had like the fidget spinners like some, some teachers were cool about, you know, you having because it's like dude, I mean, it's so boring. Yeah. You're sitting there. So he has a couple of teachers that are cool about that.

53:19So he thought as his idea, he's supposed to come up with a project to pitch and kind of sell to his classmates is like, you know, maybe this is something that they would actually buy. And so he's, he's creating like this little skate park. Uh, you know, a similar board. And so, uh, so, you know, I was kind of with him plan. He did most of the planning. He's done all that stuff. And anyway, we were starting to kind of, you know, put stuff together. And like, you know, poor Courtney is like, you know, she's completely the opposite brain of that. It has to be all already completely, uh, you know, there has to be a blueprint for it. There has to be like instructions like, you know, like it, we always say it's kind of funny. But it's like, she's rule follower. I'm not, you know, it's like we're completely opposite. We're an entrepreneur. Yeah. And so, yeah. And I love projects. And so anyway, so she had to take them because I was still coming home from work. To go and went to this like craft shop, you know, and I was like, I want to take him home deeper, but you know, it's all good.

54:22And came up back with like materials and I'm like, this isn't going to work. This is going to fall apart. And like, it's not even good. So anyway, we start kind of going through it. And I'm like, you know what? My dad is like an amazing like wood craftsman. Like he literally was going to be a wood shop teacher back in the day. He makes like cabinetry, all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, I want him to learn like that skill. Like, you know, because he's already shown interest in projects. So I brought him over there. It was great. Just I took pictures. I'm like watching from afar him teaching him like every little part of the process. How to like plan it out. How to measure properly. How to like use the table saw. Did you this that we walked out of there. And he's got this like little ramp. He made it and it's so sick. Did it. And so anyway, like I go online. I'm like geeking out on this. And they have like little railings. Like our course, Ed see that, you know, some like. Gonna go back and like little tiny like bolts and drills. And I'm going to be doing all that for him. But yeah, it's just it looks cool.

55:22Is it a project that you your dad and your son are me my dad and my son. Wow. That's so great. It's a cool like regeneration. Yeah, generally, did you guys see that? Did you see the clip? Uh, speaking of like woodworking and like that type of job. Did you see the clip? I said, you guys about electricians? No. Oh, did you get to pull it up? It's a I sent it to the mind pump. The three of the four of us that is the pump. Yeah, I know. We know the text. Thank you. Um, it's uh, it was an interview Sean Ryan did with. I don't know who it was. I thought it was a guy from dirty jobs at first, but I think it's somebody else. Oh, my crew. I thought it was him, but I think it's somebody else. Um, he was breaking down like how behind we are on electricians. Oh, he was giving examples of like a couple of electricians that he was just with like that prior week that are all like young like early 20s, making like 250 a year and they had they had been poached three times in the last year. So from other than just what a great career to get into right now. Oh, God. Yeah. So, supposedly we were like, uh, like 100,000 something like, uh,

56:25uh, Doug could pull it up. Uh, the post he talks about. He's right there. Yeah, the trades are in such high demand. That's not micro, right? It looked like a micro. Oh, it is him. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And he's, he's a big advocate for the trades and yeah, you know, how school just like it's so weird that like we were so pushed into these and they were wrong. Is the two shins and now yeah, completely. I have friends that work. I don't have friends that work in the space that there's two replacements for every five retirements. And so, oh, so it's just we need 400,000 more electricians. And it's growing by the minute because for every five that were tired. Because of the data centers and stuff. That's what he's talking about. He's like the data centers are the demand for it is so high that we, we were under by 400,000 and for every five retired electricians, we have two replacing it. And so it's AI with the AI explosion. This is going to be a very high paying job with loads of. They're already it. That's our demand. That's the point he's making is like it's they're already you got young early

57:27electricians in their 20s making 250 a year. I know. Getting poached three times in a year. And how what is the kind of education it requires to become an electrician? So you're at a high school. You want to be an electrician. Do you just go? Well, you have to go through a course that's I think it's at least 18 months or a longer. That's what I'm wondering. What does that look like to be an electrician? So you want to start working as one of those. I'm out of pocket. I'm assuming there's a there's a uh, a printer ship or something. Yeah. Printer ship and then you work your way up to tradesman. Yeah. Journeyman. Yeah. What's so it's like you're probably let's see. Oh, what does that say there Doug? High school diploma. Cool. So four to five year paid apprenticeship paid. Yeah. So versus going to college and paying for. Right. Exactly. Wow. So you get paid the whole time and then you come out and you make a crap ton of money. I also thought there was like a like a trade school. Is that a trade? Is there like a like a two year six months to two years? Okay. I was almost. But would you need that or would you would the apprenticeship cover it? Entrepreneurship usually. Yeah. I think you get I think you get there faster.

58:28I think again speaking out of turn here, I think that if you go through the the trade school, you get through that journeyman process faster. I think so. But they say a non-union contractor apprenticeship is the standard most valued group. Most value. Yeah. So it's roughly 2000 hours of paid on the job training. Yeah. What is how many how long 2000 hours would be? That's per year. Yeah. I mean, that's probably 40 hours weeks for a year. Yeah. Okay. 52 weeks. 40 hours. That's around 2000. As far as blue collar is concerned, because that's considered blue collar, is it like a really hard, rough job or is it physically demanding for sure? It's very physically demanding. I've never worked with electricians. My dad did everything but that. Oh, yeah. I would say plumbing is probably more difficult. Yeah. Difficulty. Yeah. Yeah, because yeah, the kind of tight places and underneath the house. But yeah, I mean, I don't it's definitely physically demanding for sure. Oh, okay. Yeah. What you know, hey, here's the deal. Like, fellas.

59:29I know because back in the day, you know what they used to do. They used to tell guys, this was our generation. You don't want to go work that kind of hard where you want to sit at a desk. Actually, you don't. It sucks. I think you're better off moving. Go out and move, dude. You're active all day long instead of like seeing that. Well, I mean, part of that was also because as a engineer, you can make a lot more money. Sure. As a computer engineer, you can make a ton more money. But where we're heading is electricians are going to be up there in pay, especially when you compare to computer engineers because AI is going to go take their jobs. Reading code. So how true, okay. And this is conspiracy. So just brace yourself. Yeah. So the AI, the data centers, like, so how true is it? How much water they actually need? Because I've heard there's like to cool them. There's heard there's a bit of conspiracy with that. Like they don't need that much water. Really? Yeah. I don't know. I just, I just, I thought that was the reason why Elon's trying to put them in space. Well, putting them in space, uh, covers two things. Power because they direct solar 24, seven.

1:00:32And then second is cooling because it doesn't need to take away powerful. Cool. Super cool. He was talking about, he was just on an interview and he said, we are, what we are running headfirst. Justin, it says based on what Doug just 300,000 to five million gallons of water per day. That's what it needs for a large data center. For sure. That's, yeah. So midside uses about as much as a thousand households. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, he was cool if we can use that because when you use the water to cool that, I'm assuming the water becomes warm, right? From that gets you transferred to warm all the pools. That's a brilliant idea. Yeah. Yeah. He was talking about how the problem we're going to run to is power. It's not processing. It's not, it's power. We're going to run to a power problem. We're not going to have enough power, uh, which is, you know, why SpaceX probably is going to do so. Yeah. So hopefully my shares. Yeah. Right now they're up and down. I guess. But I'm been on that for like a few. I mean, I'm not betting against you. I'm going to, I'm going to join you, but I'm just joining you in December. That's my, that's my decision.

1:01:33Yeah. I mean, based off of what I saw, I listen, uh, the, uh, behaviors around people, I think sometimes are almost more important than picking the stock, right? So like, pick the leader. Yeah, exactly, right? So I think that when, uh, December is when the largest percentage of people who have shares in SpaceX will have the ability to catch them. To show. And because they're going to make so much, most of the shares are owned by him. They are. They're paying so now. No, no, sure, sure. But there's enough that it's going to do. Yeah, sure. It's going to dip. And so, you know, the question becomes, does it climb enough, uh, right now between now and December that the dip is still higher than the way it opened? Or I think it's going to bounce up and down all the way to December, then we'll see a little dip and then we'll see a round jump. Yeah. Now I could be totally wrong. Don't take my stock advice. I've been wrong. I'm not warning you. You don't take our advice. Yeah, don't let anything other than the fit size. We're just having fo, just a couple of idiots talking on a podcast. You know, I got what it is.

1:02:35I got some, some cool data from Caldera Lab on their ice serum. I know, Doug, you use, uh, the ice serum. I do on a daily basis, yes. On a daily basis. And so this one is good for, okay, so check out what they did. Four week clinical study on the ice serum. 78%, so less visible dark circles. I did not know the ice serum was good for dark circles under the eye. All it brings the inflammation down like right away. 75% less puffiness. 87% of the under eyes appeared smoother. You don't have to do the chrysanjual. I make up anymore. Thank you. You know what? Yeah. It's got peptides in there. Stem cell extracts and at one best ice serum in the manual grooming awards. You know, I gotta use this one really. Yeah, I gotta use this one more. I don't use it enough. So I put on a nightdog or when you wake up? Uh, morning and night. Personally, so I have a tendency towards really puffy eyes. Yeah. Um, and so I'm doing whatever I can to minimize that. Is everything? Yeah, there's all the face that I do it all.

1:03:35Yeah, when you get old, I think this is when you get older, eyes get little places. Yes. So I keep, I have the whole, I have all their stuff. It's right on my sink, but I talk about the, the, the three that I use most consistently, the ice serum is not one I use consistently, but it is one I will use when I have like a poor night's sleep and I have like that, that eye puffiness because I have, I've seen, like, I can see visible difference, like, like, immediately. Oh, cool. So I keep it there and it's just like, if I look, if I'm brushing my teeth and more, I'm like, oh, yeah, look, I shit. I'm gonna do that. Then I'll, then I'll do it. And I know that. So, yeah, no, you mentioned that I like what eyeliner or whatever. Yeah. There's one time I did that because I dressed up as a vampire. Yeah. And I did the eyeliner, whatever. I've just go with crazy. And I'm, I thought, I thought, cool. Yes. I like that. I look like Adam. Yeah. Adam looks like Adam. I can't even talk shit because like, you know, anybody who's ever even been in a band before. Yeah, you've probably done that. Yeah, you're rock, you're rock, John Robbro's guilty. That's true. Hold on to you. Did you ever put on a member if I probably did, but probably. Yeah, I do.

1:04:36He says, maybe, hey, you know clearly. That's why it hasn't made it. But I don't remember. I remember you. I don't remember doing it. I sure did. I can't remember putting mascara on. I sure did. I can't remember putting mascara on. I can't remember the basis. Yeah. I know for sure because of my cousin used to live with us. She was like four years older than me. She got me a couple of times. Like, it put makeup on me, didn't I? It's like, she put it on. I was a victim. Yeah. I saw some old Halloween pictures. I forgot to tell you guys about this. My mom sends it to the group and it was a picture of me and my siblings for Halloween. So this was probably 1989, probably, maybe 1990. So it's a long time ago, okay? I was dressed as a woman. My sister was dressed as a man. My brother was dressed as a woman. This was a Halloween costume back then. That was a popular scene. It was a popular, like, what are you going to dress up? I'm going to be a girl. Yeah. You don't do that now. You cannot. You cannot. I'm not a girl.

1:05:36Like, she dressed up as like a hobo. Like, was a woman. Oh, yeah. That was super common. That was super common in our one or younger. You can't dress up like a hobo. What do you guys think? I can't move as first. A man was so first. So insensitive. Hey, bro. That was so common. That was hell of common. Oh, like, dude. That was a 90s costume. Oh, yeah. That was a 90s costume all the time. Super common. Yeah. Super common. Everybody dresses sluddy. You know, it's like a huge difference. Well, you can say hobo. You can't. Yeah. Hobo is insensitive. You can say it, but I don't know. I'm saying bombless. It's like an old word now. Nobody uses it. It's best. What is it? What a what's the play? It is not. You can't even say homeless. It's unhoused. Unhoused. It's the why do we keep changing words? It's the worst. Hey, what would you guys say you brought up Halloween costumes? What do you think was your best Halloween costume you ever did? Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, you know what? Mine was as an adult. I was 18. I was a personal trainer. I just became a personal trainer. And me and my buddy dressed up as Huns and Frans. Remember Huns and Frans?

1:06:36Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And everybody loved it. That's why I was one of my best. Sure. And then I had to cost him when I was a kid. My mom used to make my costumes when I was little because we didn't have the money to buy them. Same. So back in those days, in the 80s, if you bought a costume, it was plastic. It didn't have nice. Now you have nice costumes for kids. Yeah. But when you were a kid, you went to the grocery store and it was literally a plastic apron that you would wear and a plastic mask that would just, you would sweat, would just rub her bare and hold it in there. And so my mom made me a costume. She made me a robot and she took boxes and covered them. Oh, yeah. And put them on me. Yes. So that's it. What was yours? What was yours? Yes. So before stranger things, like, you know, like I was a ghost buster with my friend. And same thing, my mom made the whole costume. So I had like a vacuum hose that went down to like connect to this like huge shoe box with like a flashlight with my like, oh, that's cool. But I mean, that wasn't my, that was like cool for, for that time, but like, it's funny

1:07:38because my, my personal favorite one was, you know, Johnny from a karate kid, but then it, but then they got their own series and everybody's like, oh, yeah. You know, but when I first did it, it was like, everybody loved, you know, Daniel, Daniel, nobody was Johnny. Nobody was my house. I first asked you were that two or did you wear that before or before? Oh, you were. Yeah. I've got a few times that I have about four or five times. I was going to say I thought my house, I thought my house party was the first time you ever wore it. Yeah. Cause I remember keeping it. I was like, oh, that's awesome. Yeah. That was awesome back then. Cause that was a long time. That was 20 years ago. I got to say ultimate warrior for you, right? You know, I saw that picture. That was a great one. I've had some good ones, bro. I did slash. I was pretty, I was pretty. Oh, yeah. This is a gold. Oh, yeah. I wasn't like my kid. What were you? I mean, I can't even remember a lot of my kid and costumes. They weren't very good. Yeah. I was a Halloween later. So my kid costumes, I can't even, I, the furthest one back, I remember I was a devil. My mom dressed me up as one time. But I don't, yeah, I don't remember. Do you remember how dangerous like, well, considered today by today standards, we did

1:08:39risky things as kids. When I was a kid, we would get a put, we would get a pillow sack. That's what we used to put our candy. And we'd be gone forever. Oh, yeah. Forever walking all over the place, all like miles. And we come home. Yeah. When we were done with a pillow sack full of candy. And there were no limits. My mom was in like, eat five and then save the rest. We'd go in our room and just eat until we got diabetes. I think, yeah. I think Doug's Uncle Billy was one of the best. Baby Billy. Uncle Billy. Baby Billy. Baby Billy. Yeah, baby Billy. When you were a kid, what was Halloween like, Doug? Well, yeah. So very similar, similar. If you've got the plastic costume, if you want to be Batman or whatever. But I mostly made up my own costumes like pirates and other things like that. But one of my favorite ones after that is I got older was Indiana Jones. Oh. Yeah. I had the whole thing. I had the hat. You had the baby Billy? Um, I mean, I had everything. I had a bowl whip. I had the whole nine yards. I thought baby Billy was. But baby Billy was a unique, very unique. Well, not it was unique.

1:09:40And also, I think what makes a great costume is like when it, like you, you looked the part. Like you were like, there's no like one of the best is like when you're like, oh my god, that's a care. And it's a unique character, right? So it's not like a Batman Superman. That's like kind of generic. Like his stunt double exactly a character. You're like, oh my god, that is some of the best costumes were in couples dressed together. Yeah. And it goes together. I did Peter better jelly with a girlfriend one time. You know what I saw, which I've seen now since jelly first. I know what I saw a long time ago, which now I've seen done before, but a long time ago is probably, I want to say in the late 90s, a boyfriend and girlfriend dressed up as a plug in an outlet. Yeah. I've seen that. Yeah. Which was like brilliant. Also, I see no kinds of, yeah, those are those are those are good like that. But yeah, I think I think Doug's was one of one of my favorites when I where you see somebody like, yeah, see now you see it. They were common. She has two plugs. That's good. Thanks. Thanks Justin. We'll just stop there.

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1:11:42Our first caller is Jason from California. What's up Jason? What's up Jason? Hey guys, crazy to be here. My name is Jason. As we just said, I am 37 years old. I am a firefighter per medic here in Southern California. And the reason for my call is I've had some major life changes recently. But before that, I've been a fitness fanatic for a long time. I love string training. I love weight lifting. My numbers before my accident were like it was it was squad 385 dead left 315 bench 285. So they weren't crazy, but they were good. I was proud of it. But since then, about two and a half months ago, I was in a major car accident. Total my car. I have a broken left clavicle, a right 10th rib, a broken C7 T678, a torn PCL and MCL my left knee. So with all that, I have obviously been able to not work out as I want to. And I'm looking for advice on what I can do.

1:12:45What I shouldn't do. I am pre surgery. I am scheduled to have surgery probably in the next month or so. So I'm doing a prehab with PT, but that's focused solely on my leg. So I want to know, should I be doing anything upper body? Can I be doing anything about upper body? And what shouldn't I do? I'm like, were you hit by a semi? Yeah. That's a bad accident. I ran through a wall. Holy shit. Really? Yeah. Hey, man, thank God. I think God you're still here, brother. Tell me about, so the surgery is for the knee. Yes, PCL reconstruction, I believe we're going to do. I have a follow up appointment with my surgeon next week. Okay. We're going to discuss that, but that's what it should be. And then I'm going to be non-weight bearing for four to six weeks. And then I won't be able to return to work for nine to 12 months after that. I'm off work now, but I'm going to be off for a very long time. God, and are you just at this side note, you're working with someone who's going to do like more of an athletic procedure? Because there are ways to repair a knee that is like average person and then like athletes.

1:13:46Have you had that discussion? Is that... Yeah, he's the former like ortho surgeon for the Lakers. Oh, you're good. Oh, nice. Good. And then with the C7, T67, anything have to get done there? Are they healed? What does that look like? No, there's going to be no surgery with that. The only surgery that I'm going to have is for the knee, the clavicle healing itself, the spine is healing itself. They were kind of like micro fractures. But still when I lay down and try to do leg lifts, I can feel it on my mid spine basically. So it's still healing. So I'm trying to be very cautious. I don't want to hinder my progress, but I want to promote my progress essentially. And I love working out. I love strength training. And it's been like, I go through like depression stuff with everything, but like particularly being off work and not being a workout, which was a huge mental relief for me. Yeah, no, dude. This is a tough one to answer because of all of the injuries and because it's only two months out. You're close to surgery. You know, but you do have a history of strength training and you kind of know what your body

1:14:46should feel like, what good pain feels like, what bad pain kind of feels like. So without me actually training you, because if we were in person and I trained you, I would watch you move and then that would help me dictate. Yeah, limitations. That would help me dictate what to do with each time. So the best advice I could give you, Jason, is you, you've got to go real easy. You focus on the basics and you're not going in for a workout. You're going in for stability and range of motion. Okay. So an example of that would be like, you know, I'm doing a row and oh boy, like I got to stop right here because I feel like if I go a little further, it feels unstable. So now what you're going to do is you're going to play with that range of motion. That's the, that's the way that you're going to get stronger. That adding weight to the bar or to the cable. Could I ask you this since you mentioned roast? Is the 10th rib attached to the lock? Ooh, that's a good question. We need to look that up. Because that is still feeling like, well, when I take a deep breath, I still feel like

1:15:48you can do it and have fun. Okay, that could be intercostal that you might be feeling, but I'm not sure if it's attached to the lab. We'll look that up and see if that's the case. None the last one or not. Yeah, none the last. What I would do if I were you is I would try an exercise and I'd see how it felt. And if, like I said, because you have extensive history of strain training, you know what it feels like when there's good pain. You also know when something feels wrong. And so your ideas you're going to play within that gradually. With the threshold. That's right. And honestly, like, I submit to just going to say the loading position is probably your safest, most effective bet in terms of like preserving muscle and still being able to get to the stimulus. Let's use that example. So the 10th rib does connect there, right? It is connected. It's a 9 through 12 ribs. So let's say, so obviously that would be high risk to do like some barbell rows. But what, but can you take your arms and create that row, right, with your arms and then create an isometric in that position.

1:16:48Like this is a great, so my rule of thumb with you if I was training would be always default to isometric in tempo as the way to progress intensity. Not more weight, more reps. So it's like, hey, I can say, I know that that's a high risk area. So I don't want to go barbell row, but can I do this with my arms? Okay. I could do that. And you can flex and squeeze and make that like, yeah, that feels okay. Then you find your limit that way. That's right. And then maybe I grab a really light row and then I row and then again, so I'm going to intensify that squee. Like I'm going to do that. And so just keep adding weight all the time, which is what we tend to do. Bands are great too to really limit a lot of the impact. So that's something like physical therapy is at all time. But it's really just gradually getting into position, intensifying it with tension, holding it and just feeling your way through it so you don't exceed that threshold. Yeah. So here's a couple of things to consider, which I don't need to tell you, but just kind

1:17:49of bringing them again to the surface. You're two months out from those injuries. So that's a strong consideration. You mentioned depression. Okay. That's tough. In fact, that would be the number one thing that I would focus on. I would not focus on building muscle and strength and improving performance. I would focus on movement to make me feel better. And so it could also look like more general movement, less specific. I don't know how you feel about doing movement in a swimming pool. It's one of the best ways to exercise when you're healing from something just because of the support and the buoyancy low impact. So the antidepressant effects from exercise, there's lots of reasons why it helps us feel better. But one of them is just movement. And so it's really depressing and not be able to move. So if you can get into pool and kind of exercise vigorously in there because it feels relatively safe, that would be a great way to help you feel better. And that could be a daily thing.

1:18:49Unfortunately with that, I can't do to my clavicle. And I need this super unstable, like the side to side motion, any instability. Like if I'm not on a flat surface, it just like knocks and comes out of place. Oh, yeah. So unfortunately, I've tried that, but it's a no go. And then Adam referring to what you were saying about like, you know, the isometrics in that hold. So I to talk more on that, I am not doing anything left arm. And that leads me to another question that I don't know if I asked, like, should I be doing things with chest, my right arm? Like my workout routine right now is just like, I'll do one exercise per body part every day or so when I can. And I'll just do like shoulder presses and then shrugs. And then I'll like move my way down my body. I know that I'm getting unequal right now. And I know that your answer is going to be the symmetry afterwards, which I already have. But should I be doing that or should I like kind of a radiation effect you'll get from that, which actually will translate over to your other side. So you will be able to preserve somewhat of muscle there as well just by working that

1:19:52one side. But yeah, Jason, you can even look these studies up. They're really interesting where they'll immobilize one limb and they'll have groups of people. One group does nothing. The other group exercises the free arm or free leg exercising the other side actually minimizes muscle loss and atrophy in the limb that's immobilized. I got the standard correct kind of thing. Correct. Correct. So I know that the logic is like, oh, I better not do anything because then I might create more of an imbalance, but it actually helps to exercise. So you're doing the right thing. Physical therapy, your therapist, because they're working with you directly, he's going to give you a much more specific advice. Yeah. And what you can do, and you're two months out. Jason, a big deal. Yeah, I calm down a little bit. Yeah, take it easy. What I hear from you is, I don't know how long you've been listening to this show. But if you've been listening six years, okay, so I don't know if you're, it was around that time. If you remember when I came off of testosterone, I went through a little bit of depression because I was trying to get my levels up naturally. And then right after that, I tore my Achilles. And boy, it just, it like ripped my heart out. It was already bad enough.

1:20:53My testosterone levels were tamed. Then I get that I started a fast monon�. Yes, yes. I don't know where. Yes. Totally stupid. Yes, right? And I share this story because how much it beat me up on the depression side of not, of not like, I was forced to slow down because I couldn't do that. So the advice I'm going to lean into with you because you don't seem like the type of person that I'm worried about being lazy, I'm more worried about you doing too much, too soon too fast. Something that helped me during that time was actually reviving some other hobbies in my life that I hadn't done in a long time. Whether that's music, listening to Lego type stuff, like what at reading? Like, it, things try and draw back to some things that you're passionate about that you love that it doesn't require a lot of your, your body. I know this is not the advice you're calling in for right now, but just being somebody who's been there. It is. It helped me through that time because if you're constantly focused on the body getting better and you're frustrated because you're not, that's where you have a tendency to push

1:21:56versus leaning into something else that gives you that you enjoy that you love. And it's like, oh, you know what? I have, I, I can't do the training and the time and all the movement I was doing before as much. So that extra time, I'm going to do something else that I enjoy that I haven't done in a long time that maybe has been replaced by exercise or being busy with life. I would lean into something like that. I don't know what that is for you, but that helped me during that time of recovery and getting back to be patient and not rush it. So that's kind of the advice. Are you using any peptides or you have any plan on using any? I'm all over insects. Nice. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. And you guys are 100% right. I am. I am all in or nothing at all. Yeah. It's been tough because I have picked up those old hobbies like like Justin, I'm a musician, I've been picking up the guitar and doing all that stuff. But I still like daily want to go work out. So it's a struggle that I need to figure out on my own. I know you can't give me advice on that. But like, yeah, I hear you and I appreciate the reiterated advice.

1:22:57Yeah. Super tough. Yeah. Yeah. If I can ask you a kind of a personal question about this. You're a firefighter, paramedic. Was it your buddies that came to grab you in that situation? Were you in your same jurisdiction? No, it was a different department. And I didn't know anybody there. It was like two and a half hours away from home. Okay. It was a Lancaster, if you know where that is. Yeah. And I was like Orange County. How did you go through the wall? How did that happen? I fell asleep at the wheel. Oh crap. She was at late at night or a huge, long work. Yeah. So I was out there to visit a friend and I worked the next day. It was around midnight. I started driving home and I was like, I'm too tired for this. I booked a hotel room. I paid for it, started heading there and on the way. I just fell asleep. No way. You even had the whereabouts to book the hotel and you didn't make it to the hotel. Damn, bro. You must have been tired. It was tough, dude. I mean, so I'm recently separated four months ago from my fiance at the time. And so I was just working, working, working day off, going to see friends, going to do

1:23:58whatever. I was just over-stimulating. I did it to myself, 100%. Oh, bro. You got good friends around here? I do. I'm just a sports system. My work union has been great. My friends have been great. I'm going out to dinner with my crew tonight. So it's a great thing. It's a great thing. You ever up here in Northern California? Yeah. Come on. No, not really. But. Hey, you want to come up and come sit in a live episode? Hang on a little bit. Yeah, if you ever got time to come up this way, where in San Jose? I would love to. Yeah, I got all the time in the world. Yeah, I got my assistant reach out. Yeah, yeah. I'm up here. Come visit, say hi, hang out for the day. Play some of this. Let's go. But yeah, keep leaning into that stuff because you're not somebody. You're going to get back, bro. You're going to heal. You're going to about muscle memories, incredible for somebody who's been working out with his life. It'll all come back, dude. So just be patient with it. And everything I'm hearing from you, I relate to you're more likely to hurt yourself going too fast too soon than you are to not do anything.

1:24:58Be lazy and become this fat guy who never works out later on. You'll be fine. Oh, I haven't had some major body composition. I'm sure. I get it. I'm like 10 pounds heavier and lost all the muscles. Yeah, yeah, it'll come back to over. You must have had a ton of muscle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It'll all come back. It's bleeding. Yeah, it's cool. You're going to be good. All right, dude, how my assistant reach out, dude? We'll schedule you coming up here and you can hang out in an episode. Thank you. Appreciate all your advice. Thank you. That's crazy. Yeah. Well, you think too that you knew what's crazy is this two months later because that's a major injury. Yeah, huge. And he's asking about exercise. It's like, bro, this is too much. Well, and he's on the Wolverine stack. What do we say to everybody about this? Like, that's the negative part of that stack. Is it so effective? Yeah. You feel, and that's why he's wearing that right? He's like, hey, I feel good. Let's, yeah. And so, uh, I was just wondering what it's like to be the person to save people and then to be in that position where people are saving you. That's got to be such an interesting. Yeah, but do you think I mean, he's so out here. He's so out of it. Yeah, but just to know, like, you're on the other end of it and know what that happened.

1:25:59He's probably more aware of how lucky he is than anything. I mean, super humbling. Yeah. Yeah. Our next caller is Shannon from Washington. Hi, Shannon. Hey, Shannon. Hi, guys. How's it going? Great. Very good. Yeah. Good. Thanks. Okay. I'm going to read off my notes here a little bit on the side. I'm so excited. My heart's just beating. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. So I'm a fairly new listener, actually. I was previously really into the health and longevity stuff and listening to mostly that. I even became a nutritional therapy practitioner. Haven't started practice that got certified in that. I started listening to you guys at the beginning of this year when I transferred into the trainer position at planet fitness. Don't laugh. As three questions today, if that's okay, one about carbs, one about glute growth. And also what next? But first, just a little background. I'm almost 62 years young.

1:27:00I'm 5.5.1.18 to 120 pounds, about 18% body fat. I've stayed within five pounds of this weight for over 10 years after gaining and losing 10 to 20 pounds over and over and over again. Literally, a lot of hundreds of pounds over my lifetime. I've made the commitment to myself that I'll continue strength training and eating healthy for life. I'm pretty happy with my physique, but also look at my body as a sculpting project. So it's fun to kind of focus and fine tune where I can. Trying to keep it interesting. I like to have the look of a figure and physique competitor. My upper body is probably, you know, probably there, but the lower body is not. As far as occupation, I'm working four days a week right now at Planet Fitness as a trainer. I also working on building my own business around nutrition and writing an ebook. And I also spent a lot of time helping my 94 year old mother who's still living on their own.

1:28:03As far as nutrition, my diets evolved a lot. It went from the low fat. I was the fat free queen to paleo, to keto and intermittent fasting. And, you know, just the whole health longevity stuff. Once I started focusing on health and longevity, rather than weight loss, my body fat finally melted off. I have a rhythm to how I eat building my meals around 30 to 50 grams of protein. I'm obsessed with protein knowing that I need more at my age. And also, since I'm lean and wanting to maintain and gain muscle, what finally worked for me was just really simplifying things. I'm honestly animal protein, non-starchy veggies, healthy fats, plus Greek yogurt, couch cheese, protein powders and a little fruit. Excuse me. I don't normally track calories or macros, but I've been tracking for the last couple weeks, because I knew you guys would ask. I'm averaging roughly, I know I shouldn't say this, 1500 to 1900 calories.

1:29:07But there are some higher days that I didn't track. So if I go out or there's a family function, I just, you know, I go at it, but I don't try to track it. So there's a few days of those in there. My proteins actually usually 170 to 200 grams. I know that's a lot, but I love my proteins. My carbs are landing around 60 to 180, depending on if I have popcorn. And fats usually around 60 to 100. I'm actually through tracking. I realized I'm eating more carbs than I thought I was. They're mostly though from my little treats like my sugar-free fudge sickles at night and my popcorn that I kind of have purposely been adding just to bring up carbs a little bit. A little bit of a training background. I started lifting in the early 80s inspired by Rachel McClish, Cory Everson, flex magazine. Miss Olympia, first one. Yeah, they were just beautiful. I was obsessed with with that luck and all that anyway.

1:30:08And then starting in 2007, I started working out with home fitness programs. You guys probably know the ones. I was did those for 18 years was a coach with that company. And then in, let's see. And then at 50, I actually did a figure in physique competition just to kind of ring in the 50th, 50th birthday. And did well in that. That was all just training at home if dumbbells in a bench. What else for the last year. I've been working four days a week at Planet Fitness and do all my lifting during my breaks. So I have a 10 minute break, a 30 minute break, and another 10 minute break. So I've just been fitting my workouts in during that. That's awesome. And I've been doing an upper lower split with the shoulder and glute focus. So using mostly dumbbells and cables. When I saw that you guys had just released something similar, I'm like, oh, that really peaked my interest.

1:31:08I've been curious about that. I'm also been working on pull ups just because it's a fun goal for my 61st birthday. I was able to do 12. And then I slacked off a little bit due to elbow pain. Now I'm back at it currently averaging five to seven, but working my way back up to 10th for my 62nd birthday. I'm not a big cardio person. I only run off someone's chasing me. I lift a build and sculpt muscle and use my diet to keep the body fat down. I'm pretty sedentary though on my three home days, Wednesdays and weekends. I'm mostly on the computer working on my business or helping my mom. But I'm trying to get better at adding in some walking and I know I should really be adding some mobility. So to the questions for glutes, despite focusing on glutes twice a week, I don't feel like I'm getting the growth I should. The main movements are the Smith machine hip thrusts when I can get on a Smith machine that the gym is really hard to get on.

1:32:12Bulgarian split squats. I do every time and depending on what's available that day, I'll do hanging dumbbells, sumos, cable step downs, cable kickbacks and 45 degree hypers. I know my. That training right there could probably be refined much better, but that's just what I'm currently doing. Sometimes I'll do the dumbbell RDLs, but I have I have a lot of elbow pain. If I do any if I'm holding anything over 35 pounds, you know, for dumbbells. So I kind of started backing off on those. And I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I don't I'm not currently doing any squats leg press. And even though I actually have a squat rack at home that's barely ever been used a long story, but I bought it on accident a long time ago. And but then when I was doing all those home fitness programs, they were just dumbbells, you know, so I didn't wasn't using it then.

1:33:16So I have that available. And my missing something obvious, what would you change? Yes, you want the obvious answer? Yeah. Let me ask this. Do you love the sculpting and shaping thing? Yeah. Okay, so so do I. I love that. Yeah. You have to let me put some clay on. I know. I knew you're going to say that. Well, yeah, I just you you this isn't even though we can get into squatting and we get into some movements and we could have we could we could critique. The exercise selection that that's not the problem here. You I have you have to allow me. I'm going to maintain the leanness that you've maintained for 10 years. It's because majority of time you're in a deficit. Only a small amount of time are you ever in a slight surplus. And that is not enough to add more more of more size to your glutes. It's impossible. So I I would you need to let me get you comfortable with adding body fat for a period of time so I could build the glutes so I can then carve away and sculpt and show you what you want.

1:34:20I don't think you're surprised at what Adam saying because when you mentioned the calories you kind of stopped. I know. You know. Can I add something on that though? Yeah. Normally there is quite a fluctuation in there because like I said I helped my mom a lot I go over there. She's got a mixed net jar that I cannot stay out of one day. I calculated I ate like 1200 calories of nuts. She also has chocolates and Oreos which I was starting to have a problem once I finally had to quit sugar. Shannon. To get myself to stop. I'm going to stop you. Okay. You're 18% body fat. Yeah. So even if you have you're too lean to build any muscle. Even if you even if you have these periodic days that you have extra thousand calories that's my point. 95% of the time you're in a deficit. 5% you have these thousand calorie nut chocolate. What everything that is not enough. This is first built. I'm going to tell you something right now super simple.

1:35:20The solution for what you want is super simple. Everything you're saying is you're talking you're giving us all this information and it's very glaring. The one it's not your workout. Yeah. It's not your workout. It's very glaring what you need to do. So the advice I'm going to give you is going to be life changing. It's going to be super simple but it's going to be the most difficult thing you ever did. Because you're afraid of eating more. You're afraid of eating more. You guys I didn't even know the call excited you're going to say that. Like let me negotiate just. There's no negotiation. It's either you want to you don't so it's like. How bad is it? It's night and day. Well, here's something that I've always been so like rabbit hole in and curious about. And I love being lean and I know that I could get better gains like I have to decide which is more important. Yeah, but the options are you're creating a false the false dichotomy. That's right. It's not be lean and be fat. It's be too lean and be lean with muscle.

1:36:22Which by the way, I'm going to face up here. Here's what else is going to happen. Some of this more comfortable. You're going to have less pain. Yeah. You're going to have more energy. You're going to have more vitality. And you're going to look better longevity. You're going to look better. You're going to look better. You're going to feel healthier. You're going to be like, oh my god, this is life changing. But you got to get through the scary part. Your calories are way too low. The way too low. The temporary, the thing I want you to get comfortable with is only of being fluffy, which will feel that way for you. Everybody else in the world will go, oh my god, she looks amazing. She doesn't like, but for you, I know you'll feel, you'll feel, oh my god, my waist has gone up. Oh, I can't see my abs the same way. You'll feel all that way, but I'll be like, we're packing the clay on right now, relax. I'm going to get this metabolism up. We're going to build this ass. And then we're going to carve it down. Then you're going to be lean and ripped again. You're going to be eating more calories and you will have more booty than you have before. So you won't get out of the booty. That's right. You have to feed the booty. You're also going to have less pain. Part of the reason why your elbow bothered you or you'll get these indicated because your calories are so low.

1:37:23Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask something that I've always been curious about. Is there a way to zigzag the calories around your workout days and still have like high calorie days and lower calorie days? Wrong question. You'll try to keep you in maintenance. Wrong question for you. This is very simple, hun. I'm telling you like exactly what you need to do. The challenge is going to be whether or not you're going to do it. I know. So you got to let go for a second. So here's a deal. Okay. Because you remind me of so many trainers I've worked with. You're obviously a fitness fanatic. So I know what the challenge is like. Either you're going to try to do this on your own or you should I think you should work with a coach. Yeah. Not because you don't know what to do, but because you're not going to do it. Yeah. And a coach is going to reverse diet you and probably by month two or three you'll be bought in. Yeah. Look at your comfort. First 30 60 days you're going to be a lot of freaking out by month two or three. You're going to like what is going on? I feel amazing. I cannot believe how strong I am. Oh my god. I look great. I wish I did this before. Is what's going to happen about month two or three? Yeah.

1:38:24Yeah. No, I would love to do that at some point right now. It's just not, uh, not an option for me. Okay. Are you listening to the, are you listening to the journey that I'm doing with Karan right now? Are you, are you often, you listen? I've been listening, but I haven't heard much on that lately. Yes. What's your doing at some place else? But I, but I've been staying up to date on your podcast. It'd be worth your while to get in her muscle mommy group. So at least you are communicating with her on a weekly basis. So that's, yeah, I think that would be a great place. I can have Doug send you a link to get in there. And off the top of my head, your calories need to be, yeah, never lower than 2000, probably around 2500 on average, not sometimes. But we had to get, we had just like Karan, I had the stair stepper to that point. So we coach would stair step you up 200 calories every other week or so until you get to a place like that. But at the end of the day, like this is a, this is a very easy answer. It's very difficult to do.

1:39:24Right. And just my biggest push back on that has been that I didn't want to take the time. I didn't want to start tracking calories again. I've always hated doing that. I will admit doing it the last couple of weeks, I'm going, okay, this isn't that you kind of get in the group of it. And it's okay. It's tricky just I've fallen into such an easy pattern of eating that I love. And I just know that I just need to add to it. Here's another question and adding calories. So, you know, the next thing I was going to talk about was carbs is, is it okay to have more of my calories with fats? Like I love my cheese, my butter. Absolutely. Absolutely. The fact that I think you need to, if you're eating 170 grams of protein and 1500 calories, yeah. You're eating boiled chicken breasts, tilapia and protein shakes. No, I mean, I'm eating all of it. I'm eating steak and ground beef. Like I'm not, I'm not that the, the eater that's trying to lose weight anymore, I eat lots of this stuff. Like I love my fats, I love my meats, I love all of it.

1:40:26It's just that the calories aren't always adding up, especially because on my work days, since I lift during my breaks, I pack like, I pack a shake that has just protein and collagen and creatine. I bring a yogurt smoothie bowl with protein powder in it and sometimes a little bit of olive oil in it. A couple of string cheeses in an apple. Like I have to do stuff that I can just sneakily eat because I'm using my breaks to lift. No, that's great, but some's not adding up, Shanick. So, can you give me the macros on those days you were tracking? Because 170 grams of protein and 15 her calories, you can't, there's not possible there's a lot of fat in there. Yeah, on those days when I'm at work, there's not as much fat. I do eat a couple string cheeses on those days. Can you tell me what those macros look like, proteins, fats and carbs? Let's see. Thanks. On, let me look at Monday, that was a different. So, on Monday, which was a work day, I did 16, 120 calories, 165 grams of protein, 44 fat, 179.

1:41:36You're not eating ground beef, you're not eating rib eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that one was, okay, then yesterday I had talk of salads with ground beef. So, that one was yesterday was also a work day. It was 1800 calories, 1880, 175 grams of protein, 97 grams of fat, 104 grams of carbs. You should be no lower than 80 to 90 grams of fat. Yeah, you don't want a 40 gram fat day. That is not going to ever want to go lower than 80. That's not going to support your skin, hair, nails, hormones, your nerves. Yeah. Yeah, you got to bump your calories on. That's going to be really scary for you, but you're going to feel so good when you do it. You're going to build muscle, you're going to get really strong very quickly. But you got to bump your calories way too low. Walking around the days right now for a woman to walk around and maintain 18%, you're sacrificing longevity. Well, yeah, you're in a deficit. You're catabolic most of the time. An ideal, a very small fraction of time, you're hitting maintenance to a slight surplus.

1:42:36A lot of time you're catabolic. That's why we're not building. And longevity body fat percentages for active women, typically in the low 20s, not below 20. I've been here and you guys say that. I was hesitant to even call. But now that I'm on the roll tracking, I'll continue tracking. And you said it doesn't really matter whether it's fat or carbs. Whichever one you like. I definitely don't want your fat going below 80 though. Because that's essential. 44, that you missed the central fat there. Yeah. And I usually try to, I'm usually better about adding it. And then our dinners, when we actually do the dinners together, there's always like broccoli with butter. And there's always a meat. And I do cheese quite a bit. Well, look, I'm going to tell you, I know it's really hard. I'm going to challenge what you said about the way I love to eat this way. Because I don't think you do. I think you think you do. But when you experience what it feels like to fuel yourself, it's very different. It's very, very different.

1:43:36The nutrition that you're having now is a relationship that is not serving you. It feels like it is because it feels very controlled. Well, it's simple. And so what I tend to get very focused on stuff. And right now I need to focus on building my business. And I get afraid of, because I will get tunnel vision. That's why I didn't want to compete again. Like I just get tunnel vision and push other stuff aside. And I need to be focusing on the business and stuff. Like I need to be focused on the business because I want to be like, I need to be focused on the business. But I just want to give you both if I'm careful about it. But I just didn't want to spend a ton of time preparing food. And you actually don't, Shannon, you don't have to be that careful. Okay. You are, you're so low body fat percentage that we can get away with not tracking like crazy. And go have the five guys. I, you can get away with that. And I'm going to say to you, definitely what I said a current two days ago. When we sat down and met.

1:44:3612 to 15 pounds heavier than she's ever been right now and she's asking what are we doing this week? And I said I want you to add 200 more calories and the look on her face when I when I say that to her and the thing that I said to her and Remind her is like you have already proven you know how to get lean and shredded that is easy for you It is hard for you to get bigger fluffier like that's the work So what I'm asking you to do is to do the do the work do that and don't worry About what it looks like feels like because you can come back anytime. It's so easy for you to rain it in Tighten up and get lean you've proven that you're 60 some years old and you're shredded you have proven You can do that at the highest level you've competed So same thing with her is like you what what like stop worrying about that we can go get that anytime we want Let's let's put the work in on on adding and building and pushing calories and guess what if you push a little too far one week So what push a little harder next week because I know I can turn you I can turn the two of you the other direction real quick real easy

1:45:39I'm going to tell you add 500 calories consistently to your diet You're going to have more energy and more motivation for building your business your body is running on fumes Yeah, I'm excited to bring back I had to take nuts and nut butters out of the house because I couldn't control myself So that that will be a fun way to add some Yes, yeah, get them in you know what we're here's what we're going to do because I I have I don't have a ton of confidence you're going to follow what we say So here's what we're going to do comes the accountability. I'm going to have you come back on in 60 days All right, yeah, in 60 days we're going to have a conversation and see where you're at with it all. Yeah, all right. Yeah, okay And as far as carbs around the workouts are carbs that important like do I need to start packing more than my apple and You'll step forward I think the higher calories will make you feel amazing You could play with the carbs and see how it fuels your workouts. Yeah carbs are not essential So and you're getting you know you're getting some But sometime listen I have people who kind of kind of go low carb all the time I bump their carbs up and they just feel amazing

1:46:42So base it off of how you feel One time I played around with blending cooked sweet potato into my yogurt protein smoothie bowl And maybe I could do that to have a little carb during the day absolutely I have to like just quickly scarf my food though No, it's looking We'll see you in 60 days 80 days pump those calories you will build your butt you will build everything Yeah, and then also just looking for recommendations on on what next should I stick with the Upper lures like that. I'm not worried about your program I mean, I could send you one of mine, but I think what you're doing is perfectly fine. It's not a program thing This is all just too little nutrition too little nutrients, but I could send you a program if you want muscle mommy I could send it up or lower that's what lower I could say the four days split We just wrote right? We'll send you that one. Yeah, yeah, we'll send you that one Thank you so much you guys. Yeah, you got it. We'll see you in 60 days. Right. All right. See you super fluffy What are you doing? I want to see you eating on this next call

1:47:43All right, all right. Thank you. Bye. Bye That's a Denial going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I was like I love eating this way It's like this is a terrible example or comparison. It's like, you know my boyfriend You know sometimes he gets mad and you know he throws things at me and hit me Well, why don't you leave? I love them. I don't think you love them. I think you're in a abusive relationship right now Well, the the the the the math didn't add up either when you're doing doing the hunter. How many no? I was like wait a second That's that should be well straight up and I hope she watches this because she can take it like and I've worked We'll work with people like her. She's withholding information. She's probably doesn't want to hear she knows what the right Advises she doesn't want to hear it. Yeah, but the but the truth is listen if you watch this Shannon If you can you just do it just do it we say for 30 days it will change your life But it would be so scary it'll be so scary to consistently eat more But oh my god, you want to talk about muscle and strength and energy pain in her email There's things she shouldn't talk about here But she has areas that hurt trying to wonder what's going on. What's happening? She's just under fed

1:48:46Yeah, and you're trained on pain is what I'm talking about. She's catabolic 90% of the time that's right 90% of time She's catabolic and so yeah her that which needs her body's breaking down and you should not live at 18% body fat As a woman you don't live there. It's especially as we age especially as you age. Yeah, something if she has something catastrophic Happen and she needs to like be hospitalized that's gonna be tough. Yeah, so I can be able to support her right Our next color is Jennifer from South Carolina. Hi Jennifer. Hi Jennifer. Hey, hey guys. Thank you so much for taking my call All right, how can I help you? Yeah, I'm just gonna read directly from my email. So I don't stray Of course, okay, no worries. Yeah All right, um 52 years old I'm five five. I was introduced your show about seven months ago Your first few podcasts I listened to made me aware that everything I did in my workout routine was everything You say not to do I have since listened to your show and I've gained so much knowledge The little background I have been in the gym since I was 16

1:49:47I've always had a competitive mindset. I started swimming at age seven And was a top competitive swimmer in the summer league races I started running in middle school which led into road biking and then eventually in two triathlons I ran cross country and track in high school I got into mountain biking participated in some adventure races and triathlons Um, I've always been conscious about my size and that has a lot to do with my hard work and dedication to being healthy The problem for me is that my weight never goes down. It seems the harder I work the bigger I get And it is very frustrating as I got older the mentality was more is better in the gym and less is more in the diet Since listening to your show, I've had a lot of mental rewiring the first program my ran was maps and abala and excuse me anabolic And that was a mental challenge because it went against everything I thought to be true I started tracking my calories and became more aware of my protein I had a few months in the concierge program, but I had to let that go for financial reasons

1:50:50I've since done power lift and muscle mommy and just started a per lower My calories have been between 21 and 2200 for about six months with protein around 170 and my steps are 8 to 10 I still like to swim at least once a week My sleep is seven to eight hours a night my energy levels are good the scale has only gone up about three or five pounds Since upping my calories to the 21 22 I meal prep all my meals and stick the whole foods my constantly getting stronger I have attached my deck scam for you. I just had that done recently Um, I didn't know if that was something you guys could take a look at without revealing any numbers I had my RMR done which was 1449 my lab values are all within normal I'm on hormone replacement for estrogen only So my problem is not due to any lack of dedication In the gym. I love working out and lifting the problem is that my body

1:51:53Refuses to go down on the scale and my clothing size refuses to go down And I have never shown any significant body comp changes Reflecting any of my hard work and dedication. Yeah, I get that So I didn't know what you guys think Yeah, no thanks for pulling in But by the way you're kicking butt. Yeah, you're doing a really good job actually You're doing a really really good job So where were your calories before you bumped them up to the the 21 2200 that you're right now So I never counted honestly, but I'm sure they were at 1500 I mean, it was you know packet to tune for lunch and apple, you know, never really um Focusing on hitting my Protein target of 170 is where I'm trying to hit right now. Okay. Okay, and then how long would you say Before you moved into this direction How long were you doing the like more work less food kind of mentality and approach how many years with that Probably forever. Okay. Yeah, so and how long have you been doing this right here?

1:52:55Uh, I just finished a six months with you following it strict. Okay excellent job. Yeah So in six months the scale went up a few pounds But your calories are higher and you're strong by the way I can see I see in your in your Email that you're a bench of 135 Yeah, I've got yeah, it's actually gone up a little bit since that that's exceptional. Okay, so here's what it looks like now first off Because you had such a long history of doing it a Particular way takes a while to get the metabolic rate to start to really respond Which it's starting to by the way I could tell by the by the strength gains But what it looks like is slowly building and then you do the cut later and then you see the fat loss But I don't like cutting you when you're only at 21 to 200 calories. It's still too low to cut you keep going If you were to cut to 1500 right now you would see some weight loss, but then it will plateau And we wouldn't have any where to go So I would want to see your calories get closer to 26 27 28 Before we would do the cut before we do the cut So essentially stay the course you're doing everything right

1:53:57Let me ask you a few questions over last six months Since you bumped your calories you're doing the strength training. I see you're swimming In your email any changes in how you feel Yeah, I mean my energy levels are good and I feel a lot better um, you know, I I'm always looking forward to going to the gym, but I look more forward to it now because I feel like every day I'm going up a little bit more um Focusing a little bit more on my technique working a little bit more on the intensity um My biggest struggle I think right now and in the gym is that That three minute that three minute rest and stuff. I'm just gonna ask you. I was just gonna ask you how their rest periods go For an athlete I follow them, but after about a minute I'm I'm antsy But um, no, I follow it and and I just think you know when you Um, have been in the gym for like a really long time or the same gym, you know for a really long time and you see the same people

1:55:00And then you know they get the results or they've just had a baby or something and they come back full force and it's just you know I'm just kind of waiting for my little golden moment and I I can't find it Well, I just wanted to be crazy. I asked you how you felt Is that one of the points something out and you said you felt a lot better and it sounds like you just have more energy More motivation. You just overall you feel like you have better vitality. Would that be a fairer statement Okay, I wanted to point that out because you've been improving the last six months. Yeah Yeah, things are changing that didn't come out of nowhere Things are changing the aesthetic changes happen a little later because we still got to get to a place where we can cut from We don't want to go back to where we were before which is what would happen if we cut you right now if we cut you now We definitely would see some fat loss, but it would plateau And then you'd be stuck at 15 her calories again And you would feel the way you did when you're eating so low and it's important to note that when you take somebody who potentially was around 1500 calories eating and not seeing any sort of change in their body

1:56:00And I get them all the way up to 21 to 2200 and we see little to no gain really in body fat That's a huge accomplishment win And it's like now in the next six months can we do that again? If we went from 500 or 1500 to 22 Can we now go from 22 to 28 in the next six hundred and again? Even if the weight the scale doesn't change very much is that a huge that's a huge win But it's hard because I know you're putting the work in so you're like I want But it's like this is the right way to do it if we're gonna do this And we're gonna keep it off the rest of your life and you're gonna have that golden moment You're gonna feel amazing This is the path. This is the right way to go about it And so once we get up to that 2800 calories Then we bring you back down to 22 which is where you're at now And you just the weight the mat the body fat just comes off and you feel like you're being fed You got good energy like all the signs that you feel now Vitality all those things but also leaning out and then it looks like this beautiful You're not having to force it. It's just happening for you But it's gonna take a little bit of time because and that's why I sell ass how long

1:57:01Were you on the other side because if you the longer you've been on that side the longer it seems to take my clients for the The metabolism to respond the way we want to respond and so just be patient. You're doing great. You're doing really good So if you're putting on from say 20 21 22 going up to 26 and the next six months So what does that look like? Should it be a hundred calories a week 50 cows a week and then where should my protein still be at 170 and then I get kind of confused Protein so protein you're you're you're for the entire period of this this whole process You're protein solid and just keeps it all the protein it'll always come from carbs and fat and it's normally whichever one you You're more comfortable with my only one thing with my female clients that keep an eye on is make sure your fats not too low So if you're not getting at least 60 to 80 grams of fat a day I would tell you go fat But if you're getting that then I'd say wherever you want it from fat or carbohydrates It this is a generic answer, but it looks like about 200 calories

1:58:01We will bump there we I normally hold a client there for a couple weeks What I want to see is the scale staying the same I don't want to see it rising you you might see like an initial little bump And then I kind of level out and some of the dips back down and then levels But I want to see that kind of hold for about a week or two before I bump again And then I'm gonna and so I'm just gonna keep incrementally doing this 150 to 200 calories. It's normally about every two weeks or so Sometimes it's three if I want it to be if I don't see weight kind of stabilizing But I'm looking for weight to stabilize for a solid week before I bump again like that And that's kind of what it looks stair stepping All the way through that process maintaining your steps what you're doing maintaining the workouts the way you're doing Everything that was all staying the same and those calories are coming from either carbs or fat Okay, yep And play with those play with those by the way like if you have the if you have the flexibility in the diet Because while I'm coaching someone I like to it's like some people just Run more optimally on a higher fat diet and they're like mad out of my my skin I notice a difference my hormone profile. I sleep better. Oh some people carbs

1:59:05They're like oh my god out of those extra 100 grams of carbs my workouts are amazing now And I feel good and my muscle belly so play with it sometimes go more fat and see how you feel for a while Sometimes go more carbs go blend of the two and and and so I would encourage you to play with the two of them Okay, that's kind of where I Figure that yeah, what you guys are gonna say and especially about bumping those calories up to 26 28 Yeah, yeah, you're doing so good to be interesting what that looks like because 22 feels like a lot Yeah, and so that has a lot of it by the way too so back to I gave you a generic answer very two weeks Sometimes that's longer because a client of mine It's like 22's already rot and then I go 24 and you're going oh my god This is so hard so I got a county sometimes I have to kind of pull you back to the 23 for a little bit and then go back So it's hard to give like an exact answer that looks like but the ultimate goal is in six months from now We're in close to 2800 calories What that roadmap looks like is very individualized it could be every week going up a little bit It could be every two weeks

2:00:06It could be we go up for a few weeks and then I have to pull you back a little bit for a while to give you a diet break Because you feel like you're just stuffing yourself every day So that's where the individualized kind of coaching happens is like But overall that's that your goal should be set on getting stronger getting those calories up to there before we even think about the cutting process and then the cutting will be a lot easier. That's right I'm alright. Well, it's doable. I'm up for a challenge always To do it good And I want you to and I want you to keep having fun with the activity too. I know you're swimming now You have such a background of Athleticism have fun with that don't ever stop doing that enjoy it because that's gonna that's gonna keep you consistent forever Don't do it to burn and try and lose body Because you like doing it because you love doing it. It's on you. Yeah Yeah, that's that's that's a hard divide right there. It is a very hard divide That's why I wanted to say that because sometimes when sal gives someone permission like that That's like permission to try and burn it off. It's like no, no, no, no, don't that's not what he's saying

2:01:07Let's go have fun have fun if you love to swim swim because you love to swim Don't swim because you're like oh, I think I burn an extra 800 calories today that I don't want you to get into And well and later on we can lean into that on the cutting process when I go Hey pick up another day of swimming so we can increase that Chloric deficit but we're not there yet right now right now. We're in build process So I want you to build stay active But don't go out of your way to do that stuff trying to burn now Jennifer if you want somebody to coach you through that We have coaches you just let us know and I'll set you up on a call and you can see what that looks like and the walk with you the whole She had the concierge shoes of the concierge for months. Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh good You got great information then. Oh perfect. Yeah, tell me They were they were very great and very helpful with all that night. I hated to have to bump out But I got some life activities that are happening and so I had to make a choice and unfortunately I had to drop that one So I guess in six months I'll do another Dixie scan and we'll see you see what happens. I wasn't real happy with that Don't worry about kind of told what I thought it would say sometimes that's the starting point

2:02:07That's all that matters doesn't matter what it says is like where we go from here is what matters and don't discard like we always remember Don't discredit like I'm feel better. I'm stronger. I'm moving better like those are all signs of progressing. It's not just the scale Yeah, yeah, it's very it's very different. I'm after listening to you guys to go in and do a whole mental rewire yeah, which has been excellent and then to actually challenge myself personally after being on the bench in years past but being stuck in a certain weight and not realizing that I really could and now at 52 I'm doing I'm like what I'm loading you know with 45 that's just insane to me, you know that feels pretty bad By the way 135 pound bench for women is very very very impressive Very very you're doing a great job right now doing great All right, well, just I'll stay the course and stick with it. All right. Keep it up. Yeah, Jennifer. Yeah, perfect. Thank you guys

2:03:08She's doing great. Yeah, she's doing great doing really good. If she stays consistent. It's gonna be amazing for her in six months Yeah, just you know good opportunity to talk about how The longer that you were in that that extreme mindset seems to be that way for sure Yeah, that this is uh this can be the really difficult part is You and then she yeah, obviously she hears the show and we give advice and then you get to we get these great testimonies people calling in Oh my god, I lost all his way and then because we took your advice and they see it in six months or nine months And sometimes this takes a year two years for somebody to rebound their metabolism for so many years of The yo-yo dieting and the chronic extreme training with the chronic localities It took me a year and we would buy too slow and we would see this this fluctuation the scale that really scary And it took us a long time, but she had a long history of under reading one. I'm long one of my one of my last clients I took on when I was in the gym Was a case that took me two years and she was a collegiate level softball player had put on a lot of weight and had her

2:04:14And that her mentality was just cut hard And she she had she was strong. She was capable. She put but it took us literally two years before it really started to move with that And during that process we had a lot of these where you know reversed dieting then I would show her just approved or I knew what I was doing like I could I could shred 10 15 pounds off you real quick But I you have a lot more that you want to go so we had to keep going this way So yeah, it took home it took her that was a longer still I've never had anybody take that long I remember how frustrating it was for me also had a sports medicine degree So she like knew her shit. Yeah, so even harder was like trying to get stuff. Yeah, our next color is Becky from Ontario Hi Becky. Hi, Becky. Hi, are you good? How can I help you? It's great to be with you guys I've been a big fan now for about a year. I've been listening and binging on all of your podcasts I'm just gonna read my email because I'm really nervous Thank you for all you do to help people with their health and fitness goals

2:05:15um I'm looking for some listener coaching from Sal Adam and Justin regarding my metabolism and nutrition postmanopause I'm currently 52 years old. I'm five foot two I'm 140 pounds um, I recently made a massive lifestyle shift for five years from 2020 to 2025. I was vegan and I and I was a runner. I didn't really lift weights or anything But over starting in 2025 April March April I went back to eating meat and dairy um, I stopped running I started lifting a couple times a week and Pilates three times a week as well as Pickleball two hours on Sundays um, I started realizing pretty quickly though that I was I felt like I was overtraining um, so In December I stopped playing Pickleball on Sundays and I stopped the Pilates and then I started

2:06:15training with a coach two days a week. I really haven't seen any um Fat loss. I feel like I'm stronger, but I don't see any fat loss. In fact since April of 2025 Till now I gained 15 pounds and 9.6 is fat and five pounds of lean mass um, I'm kind of Not sure what to do at this point. I've been trying to pay attention to my protein intake as well as um, I've been starting to track calories and I'm starting to think maybe I've been underfeeling so um, when I was tracking I was getting You know any I think under 1500 calories today and now I've been trying to work on um, reverse dieting in a bit and I The last few weeks I've been consistently around 17 to 2100 calories And I'm just wondering is this the right way to go um, I know you always say that reverse

2:07:15Dighting takes time and trust the process, but it's really difficult because I'm I way more than I ever have um So I guess I just want to look for some input input from you. Yeah, well, thanks for calling in and it is very hard So I have a few more questions to ask you if that's okay Sure So what made you stop being a vegan uh in a runner? What what was I wanted to start uh lifting weights? Okay, then was there something that happened was there energy injury? Was it like you got some health markers come back Um, not really. I just didn't like I just I just really wanted to get strong. I wanted to get I wanted to get Uh sculpted and I wanted to look at it And I knew it wasn't and I started listening to your podcast and that was the one thing that that changed I love it. What are the differences that you felt since you switched uh take I have you said you think you're stronger. What do you mean by that or or what do you notice in that? Well, I'm stronger. I mean I just did I just entered into a deadlift competition And I was able to lift 175. Let's go

2:08:18So my my top weight there is is 185 Um and I can bench press 90 Um, that's great. That's incredible. Yeah, I've never done anything like that before so um I know I'm stronger, but I'm just I'm not seeing it on my body, you know, I just there's this layer of fat that I just can't drop It's gonna take it's gonna take a little while because your calories are so low, huh? So and you may gain some body weight, but the other option is to just do what you were doing before which wasn't working either So we got to keep moving in a direction where we have a little runway I seen your email that you at you it says you were shocked to find out that you were eating around a A thousand ninety calories a day. One was that Yeah, when I was just decided to rainfully track and I was like whoa, that's that's really low I expected it to be more than that. Yeah, it's important through this process of reverse dieting because what can be What can be disheartening or what can be discouraging Is to watch the scale

2:09:20Either go up a little bit or not change it all or to see that the body fat's not coming off But what tends to happen is we ignore some of the other things that are happening like Strength energy mobility sleep libido If you're noticing improvements in all those areas, uh, it's because the reverse diet's working It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do the fat loss doesn't happen till later When we have some place to cut from because there was nowhere to cut from before your calories are so low If we cut you it would have made you sick Uh, and we're still too low. So you know 1700 to 2000 If we cut you we would bring you down to 1200 and you might see a little bit of fat loss But then you plateau you lose strength and you would feel crappy it wouldn't put you in a good place So it's you Right now because I'm finding that you know, I'm pretty full eating what I'm eating right now So I don't know if I need to just eat more meals per day or no, what'll happen? So what happens and we get this question a lot especially on live collars of like what exactly does the reverse diet look like and it's so hard because

2:10:22Everybody's going to be a little bit different like somebody we put on a reverse diet It's like oh my god my appetites through the roof. I can eat so much other people will be like I feel like I'm stuffing myself This is so hard to get this food down And so what'll happen is you'll hit and you're probably pushing to a good point right now where you said your calories are You'll stay there maintaining that while continuing to lift and get stronger Then all sudden I don't know where you'll start to feel this Appetite increase and that's a great sign It's probably because you built a little bit of muscle you're getting stronger now the body is saying hey It needs more calories Then we lean into that then we bump the calories again Then you'll be at another place again. We're like oh my god. It's a lot of food We we stay there for a while then all sudden strength goes up again in the gym followed by that comes appetite And so it kind of looks like that and it's just stair stepping process And it's not like this clear like okay, we're gonna add 200 calories every three weeks Forever it's like no you're gonna add it you're gonna keep it there for a little bit And then you're gonna and you should see the results of the strength in the gym And then not long after that you typically feel the appetite come up a little bit

2:11:24And then it's like okay, we can bump the calories again And that's what I'm excited and there's and there's more to add to that too So when you say you're feeling full explaining that to me is it like your stomach hurts? You're bloated is it just I feel like I'm satisfied? Yeah, I'm just I feel like I'm satisfied like I don't have hungry and not hungry Okay, you know I'm hungry at my meal times, but I'm not hungry in between. I've never been a snacker. Okay. Okay. Good now How long before all of this would you say you were Eating very little or kind of under eating how many years was that? Oh My whole life Okay, probably yeah, I mean I would say so for sure And I went through a period two when when I was intermittent fasting so I would I wouldn't eat breakfast And then since I start listening to you guys I started meeting breakfast because it's a good you know It's an extra meal that I'm getting more protein in okay, so I'm not I'm not to dismiss what you're saying okay So because that's how you feel But there is a very strong psychological component To appetite so I can get somebody all these myself as an example because I

2:12:27If you've listed the show you've probably heard me tell a story But as a kid I felt like I was really skinny. I was always trying to gain muscle. I was trying to get size And so I conditioned myself that full felt a particular way And really what it was I was just stuffing myself Later when I was eating appropriately. I felt like I wasn't eating enough I had to recalibrate what that actually felt like On the other end of the spectrum People underneath for years and years and years or for the whole life What they're used to satisfaction feeling like is being underfed yeah, and being I'm overstuffed is actually This is actually how much this is what you're supposed to feel like and you kind of got to oftentimes to tell people listen to your to your body But there are cases where I tell people actually we got to ignore your body signals right now. You're not eating enough Or you're eating too much And so I think that's a little bit of probably what's happening because you've had such a history of Under eating the eating more of an appropriate amount feels like oh my god. I'm eating so much food And I'm not full or I'm too full when a reality it's it's more perfect And this is this is the power of a good coach right a good coach

2:13:28You know takes in the information that you're giving them and then there there might be a time where I'm like okay I'm gonna ask you I'm gonna push you in that direction I know you feel that way I'm gonna push you a little bit and then I want to see how you feel and respond And so there's this kind of this ebb and flow of taking in the data from you and what you're feeling and what we're doing A little bit of me stretching you sometimes having to pull back sometimes and a good coach will walk you through all this because Sal's right when you've been doing that when you've been eating a certain way for so long I we're all guilty this. I'm guilty the same similar story of Sal We've and I've talked about it on the show many times like man I've realized like I ate to be this big guy for so long that my My view of a full plate is totally distorted and I'm like I have to recalibrate that completely And you're no different. You're just on the other side of the spectrum of that And so some of that is is rewiring that you're not used to eating what would be an appropriate amount to to strengthen build muscle The reverse diet's gonna feel uncomfortable another word. So kind you just kind of kind of accept It's gonna feel uncomfortable for a little while

2:14:29Until you start to get used to what it feels like and then of course we'll have the cut on the other end of it And then we're gonna see. Should I be in the gym more than two days a week? No, no, I think you're perfectly fine You're getting stronger. You're doing great. Yep. I like strength training twice a week On your days off. You're tracking your steps. Is that are you doing that? 8 to 10,000 steps a day and I do I do still do like really long hikes like I've got a long hike this 32 32 kilometer hike this Saturday. No, you're great. Yeah, I like it You're great. Hey, feed this in the day before that long hike. I want you to feed yourself. Yeah Yeah, so make sure you get up to 2500 calories the day before that'll help you. Yeah fuel up before fuel up right after Feed the body on those long I mean, but your your activity level is great. Yeah, stay the course You're moving in the right direction for sure and always remind yourself Energy strength by tality because those things will help help keep the keep you on course when you're you know Because otherwise we get too focused on the scale and the body fat when it's not even time for that yet

2:15:32Okay, is there a specific cue or some way I'm gonna know when is a good time for me to start cutting Typically we want to get you to a point Chaloreically where we can drop you you're at a nice maintenance or something that feels comfortable So someone like you your activity level the hiking straight trail stuff I probably would want to cut you Closer to 2000 calories. I think that's a nice maintenance caloric intake where you're not gonna feel like you're starving You've got nice energy So that probably means we need to get you closer to the higher twos With your calories first. Yep Okay, so you're thinking 2800 yeah around there. Yeah around there. Give her take. Yep. I know It sounds it sounds crazy. It sounds crazy It's actually one of my favorite things to do with clients is you tell them that early in the in the process And they're like they cannot imagine eating that much and then they get there. They're like I can't believe I Eat the and I'm hungry and I eat this every day and I maintain the weight. I like it's just It's an amazing thing when you unlock it But it takes patience the psychological part is hard

2:16:34We've got a lot of rewiring to do from so many years of doing it a different way And so be patient with that and know that if you need help we have coaches That's what they do so if you need help from us and you want that support If you want somebody to walk you through the whole process We have amazing coaches and that's what they'll do and they'll change it and adjust it along the way That sounds great. Thank you. Yeah, you got it. You got it. Well, thanks for calling in Thank you very much. You do much. You're saying thank you Yeah, I'm similar so much of the previous you know some some of the previous callers It's just there's the consistency there But what's interesting the most interesting thing about this is and I've heard this so many times I feel like I'm stuffing myself And it's because you're so used to under eating that that's your comfort zone That when you start to you know, yes, especially going from vegan to Eating meat again. I'm sure that's satiating I get through that and I know the opposite of it like oh yeah I it took me a while to understand what a normal meal Looks like because normal to me in the past was a lot totally look if you like the show come find us on Instagram

2:17:37It's mind-pump media. Thank you for listening to mind pump If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance Check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mind pump media.com The RGB Superbundle includes maps and a ballad maps performance and maps aesthetic Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by sour adam and Justin to systematically Transform the way your body looks feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos The RGB Superbundle is like having sour adam and Justin as your own personal trainers But at a fraction of the price the RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money bag guarantee And you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mind pump media.com If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes And by introducing mind pump to your friends and family

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