wx2026-0303 POSTSHOW PerfectNeighbor.mxf-audio

0:00This is Democracy Now, DemocracyNow.org, I'm Amy Goodman. We're joined now by Gita Gundabir, Emmy-winning acclaimed Indian American documentary filmmaker, director, producer, and editor. She recently made history as the first woman to be nominated in two categories of documentary for the Academy Awards. One best documentary feature and the other best documentary short in the same year. The short documentary is called The Devil Is Busy. It chronicles a day on the front lines in the battle for reproductive rights at a woman's health clinic in Atlanta, Georgia. It's streaming on HBO Max. And then there's her feature documentary, The Perfect Neighbor, nominated for best documentary feature. The film looks at the case of a 35-year-old black mother of four named Agica Owens, who

1:05was fatally shot in 2023 by her white neighbor, Susan Lawrence, raising further scrutiny about Florida's racist enforcement of its so-called stand-your-ground law. Lawrence is presently serving 25 years in prison after a jury convicted her of manslaughter in 2024. The film is streaming on Netflix. Geeta, thanks so much for being with us. Congratulations, you have made history. Talk about what it meant to put out a short and feature documentary in one year, and two very different subjects. So, thank you so much for having me, first of all. Oftentimes, we filmmakers do work on multiple projects at the same time, and it is not unusual for them to come out in tandem or sometimes back-to-back, but I think, again, for them both to be nominated, was incredibly mind-blowing for both teams, and there's some overlap between

2:09the teams, which is, we have executive producers on The Devil is Busy, who are also executive producers on The Perfect Neighbor, and that's Soledad, O'Brien, and Rose Arce. So, I'm not alone in having two films this year. My EPs are also part of that, and we are thrilled. We're thrilled. It's an honor. I want to start with the film that came out second. It's The Feature, and it's called The Perfect Neighbor. Let's go to the trailer. My one-wonstad just got the emergency. I'm having an obvious one for the neighbor's children. And now, Sheriff's Office, we're any of you guys over here messing with this lady? No, no. We won't play Hill's Office. Sheriff's Office. I called because it hit us on the course of street, so you shouldn't be screaming and warning around. Okay. All the teams like to play Hill's Office, they can't walk or even throw their football

3:10all the time. My one-wonstad was the address of the emergency. Several kids out there now are screaming and yelling. Now it's time to sing a little over there for the call. Oh, I know. It's like the kids. She thinks we're trying to steal our truck. You even don't have a drive? We don't love it. So we say there's no trespassing, and I'm not always wanting to go. There doesn't need to be a cop service every time I get to play in the yard. She's always messing with people's games. She's all this. What the hell is this? Time one-one. What is the address of the emergency? My neighbor has to be screaming outside. She's going to be on her door. How do you know? Let me in. And then... Bang! I'm okay. I'm fire.

4:12I don't look at anybody. It's going to save your hands up. I think I'll be able to see you. Well, they do. Oh, yeah. I don't know. Trailer for the perfect neighbor. Gita Gundabir, it is an amazing film. Talk about how you put this together, and your use of the ring or the doorbell footage, how you came to this project. Sure. So this is a project that, myself and my team at Message Pictures, we didn't go looking for it. It came to us. And the reason that it did was because Ajika Owens was a friend of my family. She was very close to some family that I have living in Florida. And so, on the night that she was murdered, we got a distress call from my family. And we immediately sprung into action. And when I say we, I mean myself,

5:14my husband, and who's also a producer on the film, the Conquan II, and Message Pictures, my team, Alisa Payne and Sam Pollard. And we were immediately on the ground trying to support the family. And we became media liaisons for them, trying to get news coverage of the case. Because we know without news coverage, unfortunately gun violence is so common that cases like Ajika's can get swept under the rug. So that's how we got involved. Now, before Susan Lawrence kills Ajika, also known as AJ, I want to go to several clips from the film of witnesses describing an incident with her. This is an incident with Susan Lawrence, the white woman who killed Ajay, in which Susan waves a gun at the children in the neighborhood. Another day happened that my friend told me that he and the ladies over there

6:16showed the kids that she had a gun. We were just playing over there, and then she was lavering her gun in Isaac and Alden. We're like, Ryan and we were hiding behind this car here. And every time the basketball would go up there, I would be on my p's and q's like, because I ain't trying to do a shot just for going up on her driveway. Maybe like two days before that. About two days before she showed this gun. Yes. Witnesses repeatedly described Susan Lawrence, racist and aggressive behavior toward the predominantly black children living in the neighborhood, including referring to them as slaves. This is another clip from the perfect neighbor. Susan, she would come out and scream and the language around his little kids. The Susan on you? Yeah. Describe to me what she was saying. The F word, the B word.

7:18B word in the F word. She called them slaves. She told them not to feel that they weren't on or it wasn't the underground railroad. You guys chasing a dog around here? Chasing a dog? What color is it? I don't know. What color is it? You guys chasing a dog or trying to put a dog into a car or something? No. The carrying cold. Yeah. The camera cold? Yeah, she's saying. I don't know why she keeps trying to make her run. She keeps on shooting. What? The kids are just playing around here right? She just keeps coming out and started talking to her. She's quickly off. She's from the club because this is probably the first place. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going to talk to her. She's going to yell at us? She had um, she asked. Oh yeah. Every time I go, I walk past. She thinks we're trying to steal her truck. Go buy her truck. We're not even at home. Where are we?

8:18Where are we? Okay, yeah. Okay, so that's another clip from the perfect neighbor. And these are kids who are being talked to by police officers. If you could explain the footage that you used. Sure. So essentially about two months after Ajika was murdered, we received the body camera footage, which you see in these clips. The film is about 95% police evidence. We received it from the family lawyers, Benjamin Crump and Anthony Thomas. And they asked us to go through it to see if there was anything we could use for the media. And I used to be an editor. I was throwing it out. And we saw it was about 30 hours of material. And what was so astonishing about it was that it went back two years prior to the crime. And you never see this. In this footage, we got to see this beautiful, multi-racial, intergenerational community as they were before. Before this terrible crime occurred. And you get to see them living together, loving each other, raising kids together.

9:19Kind of the best of us, the best of our society, the a bit of the American dream. And how Susan, who was one outlier with gun, used manufactured fear, weaponized racism, and had access to guns. Again, the gun laws in Florida allowed you to buy a weapon, like a toaster oven or microwave. And then also, we see how standard ground laws came into play. And the intersection of all those things led to this terrible crime. And the date of the killing? It was June 2nd, 2023. So let's go to another clip of the perfect neighbor, where we hear a portion of the 9-1-1 call after Susan Lauren's shoots, AJ Owens. 9-1-1, what did they ask you about? Come here, come here, come here, come here, come here, come here, come here, come here, come here.

10:26Are you sure you got a truck? Yeah! Oh, God, what is it? What is it? Hey, what's up? Hey, okay, we're going inside again. Where is it? Where is it? What is it? What is it? Where is it? It's on the ground. There's one variant in front of it. A variant that sounds good. Run on, run on, run on, run on. Run on, run on, run on, run on, run on. Run, run. Sheriff's Office, kill us out of your hands up. Is the main county Sheriff's Office, kill us out of your hands up. I mean, I can't imagine the guilt of her son, whose iPad is taken, and he goes to get his mom, because that's what he thinks that's what he's supposed to do as a nine-year-old child.

11:27So he got her, Ajika went over, and she was irritated, and she knocked on the door about, I think, six times, perhaps, and that was it, and Susan shot her through the door. Susan was on the other side inside her house, a locked metal door, and she's just shot her, and her children were with her. So it could have been a child that was struck, it was Ajika, who then managed to make it partway down the lawn before collapsing, and you see in the film that her oldest son ran to the neighbor's house to get help, and then the entire community came out and surrounded her and tried to revive her, and called 911, had great danger to their own lives, because Susan was still in the house with a gun. They didn't know she was going to come out, they didn't know she was going to shoot somebody else, but that beautiful community really did everything they could to try to protect the children and Ajika. Now, since the police had been called so many times before, they knew that she had a gun, yes.

12:29So the police, I think, one of the things we see in the film is sort of the systemic failure of the police department in managing this case. They were called to the scene repeatedly, but they never saw Susan as a threat, and they never saw the community as needing protection from her. Even though she was using hate speech against children, she was threatening them, she was filming them, she was constantly harassing them. But I think Susan was able to weaponize her privilege, and she tried to weaponize the police. She was not successful, ultimately they dismissed her as a nuisance, but that led her to then take matters into her own hands. And Susan's behavior at times was very erratic, and they did not flag her as the problem. And I think that is where the police brought their own biases to the scene, unfortunately. And then the worst outcome happened on their watch for both parties. Susan, for both Susan and Ajika, I believe Susan was failed too.

13:30She should have never had access to a gun. So let's go to this clip from the perfect neighbor where Susan Lawrence is interrogated by police after killing Ajika Owens. At some point you may have seen some of the news dealing with this case in the story. Yes. Okay, what kind of stuff did you say? I sort of tell it at the child. I said all kinds of things that I never said. You know what I saw? I saw four kids that no longer have a mother. And I'm not taking away how you were treated, but those are your children. None the last, right? And now they don't have a mother you're going to. And I think you know what you did was wrong. I think you know that there were already deputies on the way. But it was times I called them deputies never show up.

14:32I understand. It's been two minutes. To me it wasn't two minutes. To me it was much longer in my mind. I just felt like there's only one reality where time exists. And Anderson, perception of time can be different for different people. But in the reality of things, you had just disconnected within two minutes a shot was fired through that door. And that's police officer a detective interrogating Susan Lawrence after she fatally shoots Ajika Owens on June 2nd, 2023. And explain what happened then. She's taken into custody. But then she's free. She wasn't arrested right away. It was quite astounding to see. So one of the reasons we also were so vehement about getting the case out to the national news was because of the standard ground laws that exist in Florida, which required that there be an investigation into whether or not Susan had the right to claim self-defense under the standard ground laws.

15:41So she was brought in for questioning, but not immediately arrested, even though they knew that she was the shooter. So she was released. And it took about four days for her to be brought back in and re-interviewed and then ultimately arrested. And why was she, since the Sheriff's Department originally said the case didn't meet the standard ground qualification? Yes, so that is why she was brought in the second time. She was brought in for more questioning and which they talked to her about the fact that she believed it had been ten minutes, but it took ten minutes for her basically between calling the police and shooting Ajika. And in fact, it's revealed that it was two minutes, that she was standing at the door essentially with a gun and that she had research stand your ground laws. So once that was revealed, then the arrest and she, you know, she didn't deny it, but the arrest was imminent and they took her.

16:41They actually officially took her into custody. This is more than a decade after George Zimmerman killed Tradeon Martin. Yes, yes. So we have the precedent of that in Florida. And so for us and the family, we were deeply concerned that there would be no justice for Ajika. So stand your ground exists in about 38 states in some shape, form, or fashion. And the tenets are different state by state, but in Florida, the way that the law works is that you can, as long as you are anywhere lawfully, you don't have to be in your home, but anywhere lawfully, you can use deadly force to defend yourself against a perceived threat without the duty to retreats. So imagine how biases play into that because a threat can be perceived. So this is what exists in Florida. And again, it's an incredibly dangerous law. And there is no way that racism is not a factor.

17:42Explain what Susan Lawrence finally gets convicted of. So she was convicted of manslaughter. And she received 25 years, which is in Florida, manslaughter can carry 30 years. She was given 25. She had not committed a prior violent crime. So that is why the judge, I believe the judge gave her the highest number of years that he could considering. And the family today? The family today, I think there is still struggle. The children are deeply loved. Obviously, Ajika's mother, Pamela Dias, is the bravest person that we collectively know. She has started an impact campaign, along with my sister, Latikima Robinson, who knew Ajika. And it's called Standing in the Gap Fund.org. So in trying to put pain to purpose, they want to make sure that they support victims of race-based crimes.

18:46And they also want to push back against standing around law state by state. So that is what they are doing for Ajika's legacy and just make change in her name. But it's hard for the children. They are loved. They are loved. They are supported. And we, and message pictures, when we sold this film, it was a little independent film. We were able to sell it to Netflix out of the Sundance Film Festival. It allowed us to give the majority of the money to the family, from that sale, to make sure that they were taken care of. However, it's, you know, again, the children are without their mother. So it will take a long time to heal. You need to talk about your decision not to re-interview either the family members, the neighbors, or Susan Lawrence. You use just the archival footage leading up to the killing and then after. That's right. So we wanted to build a world. I also had an incredible editor, Vera Diana Lieberman, who recently just won the ACE Award for editing.

19:49She and I committed to using this footage. There was a couple of reasons. We didn't want to go back and re-traumatize the community by re-interviewing them. They'd already been through this experiencing this terrible crime. They had been interviewed by detectives. We didn't want to reopen that wound. So we wanted to let them have a healing process. That was one. The other part of it is we felt that there could be incredible world building with this material. Again, body camera footage can be a double-edged sword. It is a tool of surveillance. It is complicated for vulnerable communities. And it's not perfect by any means. But again, this footage is somewhat undeniable. We were not there on the ground. And I think in this time frame where there's a lot of doubt around the media and how, if we were on the ground, there might be questions of whether or not we directed people to say something. Or we manipulated things, our own biases. What you see in the footage is unvarnished.

20:49It is just what the interactions between the community and the police untouched. So we felt that made it undeniable. Can you talk about the through line from your Oscar-nominated documentary short, The Devil is Busy, which we're going to talk about in a moment to the perfect neighbor? And also why you chose that title, The Perfect Neighbor. Sure. So I'll start with the title. So I believe The Perfect Neighbor holds a mirror up to our society. It speaks to all the ills that are coming mostly from the top down, frankly, that are being used to divide us and to polarize us. Again, I mentioned manufactured fear, weaponized racism. We are being told to fear our neighbors. And that is obviously in service of our neighbors being kidnapped. And perhaps trafficked into concentration camps, in my opinion. It is a way of dividing us so that we do not fight back against encroaching authoritarianism.

21:57So for me, Susan describes herself as the perfect neighbor. She says, I'm quiet. I never see me. I don't do anything. And I think there is irony in that because the perfect neighbor, I believe, is what you see in that community of neighbors who care for each other, who are visible, who speak up, and who are, again, are in close solidarity with each other. And I think when we think about what we're going through today in our society, I want people to think about being what a perfect neighbor actually is. Is it the people in Minneapolis who are defending their neighbors, who are in the streets, who are actually risking their lives, and in some cases dying? I think that might be the case. So I would like people to think about that and hopefully walk away wanting to be upstanders. And then the through line to the devil is busy. So that film, this short, made with Solid Out of Brine, Rose Arce and my amazing co-directors, my best friend from college, Crystal and Hampton, also a family film.

22:59We wanted to make a film about the fall of Roe vs. Wade at the federal level, the Dobs decision, and the impact. And this clinic in Georgia, which is run predominantly by women of color, felt like an incredible vehicle into that world. The film is representative of a day in the life. And the security guard Tracy, who is on the front lines, is deeply religious, as religious as the men who are protesting outside, but she believes that women's reproductive freedom is still a fundamental right. You mentioned Tracy. Let's go to a clip of Tracy, who is featured in the devil is busy. She's a security guard at the abortion clinic. You know, first thing in the morning, I'm looking for where could someone be hiding in the woods, because someone would be hiding the Dunster. There's a car up top, it's not supposed to be there, it's not staff, so who are they? Do you have an appointment? Excuse me.

24:01Okay, I work here, that's what I'm trying to find out why you're in the parking lot. Do you have an appointment? Good morning. Yeah. I was trying to find out if you had an appointment. Okay. Okay. So the clinic opens at seven o'clock. Okay, you're welcome to wait in your vehicle until security arrives. Okay. Okay. So you're good, though? Okay. I'll be back to check on you. Okay, thank you. That's Tracy, a security guard for the feminist woman's health clinic in Atlanta, Georgia. Where abortions are performed. If you can talk more about this woman, Tracy, who starts the day praying. Yes. So Tracy, I think like I mentioned before, is a deeply Christian.

25:02And she begins every day with prayer and ends it with prayer. And for us that I think to find someone who could live at the intersection of faith and the belief that women have the right to reproductive freedom was incredibly unusual. She was, I had not met someone like her. And again, there are protesters outside weaponizing religion against women using the same religion. And interestingly, mainly men. Men. Yes, definitely men out there. And they are, it's an all day assault, the listening to them, the clinic. And they also are, again, sometimes there's two of them, sometimes there's many more. But it is, it is increased since the Dodd's decision. And explain the Dodd's decision. So basically at the federal level row, row now was, row versus way, and the right to abortion was mandated to the states. So the states were able to now decide, essentially if abortion was fully banned,

26:05if there was a six week ban, the tenets of the rights have been left to the states. And again, that, again, it's no longer protected at a federal level. So for women, you see with this clinic, some women have to travel for days from out of state to get there. And Tracy is, her job is to keep everyone safe, to protect them, and she leads with love. Honestly, and I see in Tracy the sort of true belief of Christianity, because she just exudes love, and she is, again, fiercely protective. And she is incredibly kind. I want to go to a doctor working at the abortion clinic in Atlanta. This is another clip from The Devil is busy. If I still remember like my first couple of weeks here, I was just so amazed by the work that they do here. How's it going? Being able to take care of patients from all over the US. Okay, all right.

27:05I'm going to go say hi to everyone, and then I'll be back and we can discuss it. How's it going? It's busy today. Today is busy as last week. Not yet. You know, I worked my whole life to be an OBGYN, and as much as I want to provide care, I have to keep in mind my safety, my livelihood, all of those things. And when it puts it into perspective that you could go to jail, it's just like, what? That's just, it's hard. A clip from The Devil is busy. And why get to the title? The Devil is busy. So it's something that Tracy actually says. I feel that the title is always the last thing that you come to in a film. And Tracy had many great quotes. But it's something that she says in referring to how she addresses the women they come up, when they come up, and she sees them. And she says sometimes they have tears in their eyes because they have been the men who are protesting,

28:07have been shouting at them, and they are conflicted in. And she says, don't let The Devil get in your spirit because The Devil is busy. And so that is her way of trying to comfort them. And we also thought it was a bit of a analogy for what is happening in the world. I think, and we wanted to sort of flip the mirror on what the protesters are saying. Because you think it might be a quote from them, but it's actually a quote from Tracy. I wanted to end by asking about your own career and how you got into documentary filmmaking. In your relationship with people like Spike Lee, what a difference it meant to have a mentor. Absolutely. So Spike Lee and Sam Pollard are both mentors to me. And I was so fortunate. Spike Lee hired me on the film Malcolm X. When I was 22 years old, 21 years old, something like that. And so opened the door for me. And so I really stand on their shoulders. And Sam Pollard, since then as well, I have been by his side. I've been so fortunate.

29:09And Spike Lee, with his films on Hurricane Katrina when the levees broke. And if God is willing and the creek don't rise, I was an editor on those. So I learned so much from him and Sam. Sam was a producer and also supervising editor. So getting to work with them really introduced me to the world of documentary. And because I came from actually a scripted fiction background. And working with Spike and other filmmakers. But I fell in love with documentary. It's hard not to. Again, real life is stranger than fiction. And the stories of real people are so incredibly compelling. And again, as we wrap up by end where we begin, you are the first woman to be nominated for an Oscar twice in the documentary feature and documentary short division. So March 15th is a very big day for you. The day of the Academy Awards. It is. It's such an incredible honor to be nominated. Because we are nominated by our peers and people we admire, you know, who we inspire us.

30:11We are communities of that is mind blowing. But also it gives us a platform. I mean, honestly, these awards and any accolades gives us a platform to talk about the issues. And that is almost more meaningful. The idea of being able to make change is the ultimate goal and to have an impact. So we are so honored and so grateful. Gita Guntibir is an Emmy winning acclaimed documentary filmmaker. Indian American director, producer and editor has made history as the first woman to receive two Academy Award nominations in both documentary categories in the same year for best documentary feature for the perfect neighbor now streaming on Netflix. And best documentary short for the devil is busy now streaming on HBO Max. This is Democracy Now. I'm Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us.