Why Lindsay Clancy's Jury Couldn't Agree

0:00This is the big breakdown. A long look back at some of the biggest stories we're covering for you at the Hidden Killers podcast and true crime today. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dray. The jury is deliberating as of right now, as of our recording of this. But outside the Plymouth Court, where the Lindsay Clancy case has become something bigger than a verdict to conspiracy factory, a cultural flashpoint, and a set of questions about what happens next that nobody in the courtroom can actually answer. Your thoughts in the comments as we roll through this online thousands of people are accusing Patrick Lansing of murdering his children. Yeah. I was not expecting this one when we began covering this case. There are literally there's content creators building audiences on the theory. This is despite surveillance footage placing him outside the home.

1:03Lindsay's own admission that she did it. The whole defense, everything, everything. I mean, it's based on fantasy, but it's big and it's out there. Joining us to discuss the conspiracy world and where this all goes after this Bob monitor defense attorney's been in the courtroom every single day hosted defense diaries. Robin Drake retired FBI special agent. I mean, Bob, just for the record for everybody, you watched him testify. Is there anything that supports anything these people are saying? No, there we go. So the woman told everybody how to that she did it. I don't know. Like this concept that somehow Pat Clancy came up with. I know. Pharmaceutical like amnesia like cocktail for her that she doesn't remember and then he

2:04fettered the story. He would like thinking she was going to be dead. It's fucking ridiculous. He'd be like Batman too. Like I mean, the way he'd have to like kind of like cannot like make this all work and like in the situations. It's like you'd be insane. It's insane. There's not one behavior with what have you lifting for bad man Alfred was in the back from inventing all the shit. Pat Clancy doesn't have Alfred and also his behavior. I mean, from the 911 call, which is completely incongruent with someone even contemplating the idea of being the perpetrator. That's one thing. His testimony on her behalf is incongruent with the fact that he would have done it. Her behavior just completely collapsing doesn't have any shredded down in her own head that she did it because that you what you're seeing her doing when she's completely collapsing in the courtroom every time it's brought up is her collapsing and devastated because she's very aware that she did it. So all these and that's just the facts of what we see before our eyes let alone all the

3:06evidence. But these these seem people I'd be very curious. We should take a poll if they think we never landed on the moon and the earth is fucking flat. Guarantee. I didn't. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of triggering characters out there for a lot of people. A lot of them you can identify and go, oh, this is kind of a triggering type character. I didn't see Patrick Lancy being one. No, what? It's like boring. It's kind of like here's what I've come up with in terms of trying to. You figure out what the fuck is going on with these people and it's I'm talking about the Clancy Patrick Clancy. Guilters. They're trying to rationalize a completely irrational concept for all of us, which is that a mother would do this to her own children. It is way, way easier for people to come to the conclusion that it's the husband.

4:12That's that fucking guy. That's how it is. That's how it is. Yeah. Dad, look, he's got a new wife, you know, like he's married. He's already, she's either pregnant or they have a kid, whatever the case may, you know, they start digging into it. It's way easier to have. It's not peeders over the world. Yeah. Perth Watts of the world because it's easier to wrap your mind around that concept that it is to think in any world that a mother would do this to her children. Especially when you see her in the courtroom and you see the, yeah, I mean, when you see her in witness her and you hear all the testimony between friends, family co-workers of what a perfect human being and mother she was until this surrender stay and you want to have a monster and you don't want to accept the fact that mental illness could bend at the core of this. You have to blame a monster someplace so they found one. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like a madly invented one. We didn't have these because in so many cases we cover all of those elements exist. There's the motive. There's the lover on the outside.

5:13There's the bullshit here. There's this over here. This didn't have any of that. So what happened is the audience filled in those blanks with villains and concepts and constructs that don't even exist. We are story makers as a piece. That's interesting. I mean, I don't... I can't think of another case where like, can you Bob recently where it gets this, like just completely inventive material, like other store, I mean, is this new? Is this part of social media and the way we communicate? Is this going to be just kind of how it goes going forward on so many cases where when reality is too hard to bear, we just really kind of go down other roads where you can't rationalize the irrational. Yeah. I mean, probably, you know, I mean, the reality is the internet gives people to do a lot of digging and if they lock it on a concept, you know, I mean, they're going to dig. They're going to dig and dig and dig and dig until they find something.

6:15And then, you know, I mean, I'm going to blow your mind here a little bit and probably have people like losing their shit on me. The Christopher Vaughn case, which was an Illinois family annihilation case that took place at this point like 20 years ago, was around the same time that Drew Peterson, the cop killer who killed his wife and then his young wife went missing. They never found her. So those two trials, going on at the same time, Christopher Vaughn was married, three kids are on their way down to a water park in St. Louis. Ends up that all three kids are executed in the back of the car. The wife Kim has a gunshot from underneath like your typical kind of suicide, you know, maneuver in terms of using a handgun and Chris was shot twice. So the prosecution's like, nah, you did it. It was you, you obviously just staged this whole thing.

7:18First, you know, you got the gun under her head, you know, you shot her, you shot yourself and then you executed your children and they convicted them on. And you know, in that case, it was the same kind of shit. He had like their, their marriage is on the rocks, at least somewhat. You know, he wasn't having an affair, but he had been going to a strip club. You know, like he had spent like $1,000 in a strip club. Turns out, and it wasn't really argued that before this drug called Topa Max had its black box warning, FDA warning on it, Kim was taking it. And there were these profound changes in her personality from taking the medication. And she was like, I think they had given it to her as an anti-depressant. And ultimately she ends up, you know, as just the victim in this thing and there, and there's been a push in that case.

8:18And we think that it's going to kind of revive the conversation in that case. Was it Kimberly who had actually done it? And that, and that Chris wasn't, wasn't lying because he always denied. He's like, it wasn't me. Yeah. It's like what, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, you had two gun shots yourself inflated gunshot wounds. Yeah. So they're claiming they're claiming shot himself through the hand and then one went into his thigh. So. And that's a low probability. Yeah. I mean, like it's like, I don't know. It's a crazy case, but there's a lot, there's a lot of striking similarities to this case, especially because right after that case took place that the black box warning for a homicidal and suicidal ideations was put on that particular script. So, you know, I just think it's one of those things where, you know, in the reality of these types of cases is that most of the times when mothers do this to their, their babies

9:22or their children, they end up successfully killing themselves, which in turn means that there is no criminal case. Right. That's true. That's why we never get this far on so many of these is because, yeah, that's, that's true. That's where you would probably end up in the same sort of place. And this, and this, and this mental health issue keeps evolving. I was doing the research before we started and Bob, you being the lawyer, knowing this much more intricately, obviously, you know, but as I was looking up, when did this ability to claim not mentally, you know, the words, but basically not, not a criminal responsibility, not like a criminal responsibility, especially in Massachusetts, product tests of it was in 54, the penal code is instituted in 62. And then just, and so it's been around since the 1800s when it was instituted as law, you know, started in England and everything. But it's evolved over time as our knowledge of what goes on in the brains over time because even, again, I'll just tout the gasey files, you know, and buried by you, just listening

10:22to the prosecution's closing and their lack of awareness of the mental health then even compared to now, from 1980 to now, it's profound what's with the advancements are. And even, you know, and even if people want to pay attention to what they were calling the Bible, what Mac was calling the Bible, that DSM, it is so far lagging behind in all the psychs of my team working with it. Again, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's just not what they use when pure diagnoses are going on because it's, it's incomplete. It's not even compatible with what the world is using anyway. Yeah, I'm with you, man. I mean, we're, we're still in the stone ages with this shit. And the reality is that we know so little about the human mind. You know, you can't, like I keep saying now, like you can't throw a cat scan up or, or imaging of the brain and be like, oh, there's the fucking psychosis. I'm pointing at it. That dark spot right there. That's it. And when we can't see an injury, it, it becomes very difficult for us to understand it.

11:28And the, the most fucked up thing about this case and, and all the people who I kind of consider to be mental illness deniers out there and even in our chat and, you know, but it's the most important organ we have. It's what separates us from the fucking beasts. Like what, what could be more important than figuring out what the fuck is going on with our minds? Like what takes precedent over that? If you've lived through a loved one who has had Alzheimer's and watched what that has done to that person and you still refuse to have a concept of just how powerful our mind is in terms of determining what our quality of life is and how we react to the outstretched outside world. And I can't help you. You're living in a fucking fantasy world, you know, it's like, like to me, that's the, the most it like everybody knows somebody or has a loved one that has gone through Alzheimer's.

12:31Think about that. Think about that for these and it starts to make clear to you like, wow, yeah, you know, people's entire fucking memories 80 years wiped away. Because if they don't know anything happened in those 80 years, including the people they love the most on the planet, they have no idea who they are. Yeah. I think that's a scary thing for a lot of people is the possibility that our brains can do that sort of thing. And yeah, it's scary, but it's real and pretending it doesn't exist doesn't help anybody. I stupidities outpace in our knowledge of our brains. It does. That's going to wrap up for today. We're going to actually get with your defense diaries here in about 20, 25 minutes or so. So go check out defense diaries. We're going to go and join Bob on their live over there. I want to leave with a one of my favorite lines. I think that I've seen so far about this case. And it's about it's about Reddington.

13:34He may have a whorthers in his pocket, but I know a gangster when I see one. So many women in love with this man on social media. And I don't know if you guys, I posted the media swarm around him yesterday. I was just filming the swarm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like I was not because I talked to him like I'm not. Yeah, I saw. Yeah. I saw it. I was trying a case. You know what I mean? Like, no, but I mean, I talked to him indifferently. Yeah. Any rate. You know, but yesterday that fucking crowd of media that was just like enveloped him whole. Yeah. And he's like, it's funny. If you haven't seen it, it's on my Instagram. Check it out. Yeah. It's great. You know, I was saying this before we started, no matter the outcome at this point, you're not going to bring back the kids, the tragedy that there's no justice for their loss. The victims are standing with their daughter or daughter-law or friends.

14:35The attention that's been put on the mental health crisis for women, especially in post part, has been made and hopefully will continue to be made. And either way, she's behind bars, whether it's in a psych ward or not. I mean, so he threw it all on the table, no matter the outcome of this. You know, so it's hard to imagine no matter the outcome, you can have hindsight and say he could have or should have cared more or could have shown it done better. I mean, I've never seen anyone throw it all out there so hard every single day. And it was been an education watching him just doing, watching, you know, like when he was doing his direct and it goes short, you're like, why is that such a short direct? Because he was anticipating the cross and then he's making his points on the redripe. I'm like, holy shit, that was genius. Yeah, what was he going to be? What a lot of you would be. And my highlight for him, my favorite, favorite, and he's got a lot of great techniques. Like he does that thing where he's always like, you know, where he says something, the affirmative to a witness like, oh, so when did you do that?

15:39Oh, so you called, you know, and then it forces the witness to say something that they didn't do that they should have done. And he'll always, he'll get at them by saying, oh, so when did you call them? Oh, well, I didn't. Oh, okay, you didn't call it. But my favorite thing was when he read the portion of the opening statement from the Commonwealth to who I can't remember if it was Kyle Brunner, the Saki guy. And you know, he's like, do you think that that's an accurate? I think it was. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Sorry. I didn't. I didn't. Great. Yeah. Sat off. Yeah. Sat off. Do you think that was an accurate representation of the case that's in front of you? And he's like, I think it's really minimizing what was going. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. But I recognize it because I couldn't hear in the courtroom if he said that this is coming from their opening because it's way more powerful if he's not telling the witness.

16:42It's the opening. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So yeah, that was, that was my favorite moment. I was going to have many, many red moments that I love. Yeah. I mean, his one liners and his zings are the best. It was the most tragic education. I've been part of it in a very long time. Oh, yeah. The whole attorney's break thing was fucking classic, man. Defense Diaries Bob Mata. Go check it out. Press subscribe. And we're going to go over to his live here. I can send him a 25 minutes. We'll be talking. I'm sorry. You got to send it to me and Robin to send us there and we'll be over there till about one ish or one central, whatever that is for everybody. And Robin, this is okay. It's your turn. Yes, it's a stage. Here we go, master class. Yeah. So I got my master class out. So it's my class on master class. It's become the people, become the person that people that everyone trusts. It's out on master class. And so if you, if you follow me, you're into understanding human behavior and actually

17:42what inspires people to trust you, this is a class view, high decision-making. And so basically everything we do on this show, check it out. It's on master class. You can go to my website, check it out also. It's in the description here. So thanks. And the link is in the description as well for Robin's master class. So go check that out. All right, press subscribe. We'll continue our conversation in the comments. Until then, for Bob, for Robin, for Todd, I'm Tony. We'll talk again real soon. Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now. And don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Three and a half hours of deliberations. We're well past that. Now we're what? As of this recording, 10 plus. This is where we're at as we're having this discussion. No verdict yet, but we're going to keep watching. The jury went home for the weekend. Five options on those slips.

18:43First, degree, second, degree, manslaughter. Not criminally responsible or not guilty by, by reason of insanity. We're going to be talking about all that Jennifer Coffin daffo, Retired FBI Special Agent, with us along with Robin Drake, Retired FBI Special Agent, Chief of the Counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. Jen, you've been making a lot of comparisons on the internet's on Twitter over the weekend about some cases. I got into it with you a little bit over the weekend. And I said, all right, we're going to talk about this one Monday. So we're going to talk about this one Monday. You went and started comparing her to Lori Valow for all of those or for all of you who think Lindsay was an in her right mind and hearing voices. So was Lori Valow. This is what you put out there. Where are all the pink shirts for her? I'm going to reply and then I'm going to let you reply. Okay. Did you already reply on Twitter?

19:45I did, but I thought of this even more because it's like, what? What are you talking about? Why didn't you hear my reply? That's what it is for you. For all of those who think Lindsay was and it's not what we think she was in her right mind. That's what the psychiatrist who evaluated her approximately 60 times testified to under oath. That's the medical record. That's what 30 different prescribed or prescriptions document here. It's really not an opinion. She wasn't that's established. She wasn't mentally well. So was Lori Valow. Well, different. Lori believed her children were zombies possessed by dark spirits as part of a doomsday religious ideology. She shared with Chad Debel. This is not psychosis. This is not hearing voices. That's a belief system that she chose and she acted on over the course of months that she used to justify having her brother to her ex husband for a million dollar life insurance policy that she maintained while she collected her dead children social security benefits.

20:45And she held onto while she flew to Hawaii and got married 17 days after her husband's first wife was murdered. Lindsay Clancy went to the emergency room begging doctors to fix what was happening inside her head. Lori thought she was on a mission from God and also and cash that I share my kids and Lori said I didn't they're not the same thing. Okay. First of all, connect the dots for me where I'm not seeing how she's like Lori Valow. Lori's another. I'm with you. Lori's bigger nutter. That. That was absolutely opposed for you, Tony. Because you remember our conversations where we argued whether. Lori was saying or whether she wasn't and if that is the most facetious comparison for anybody who knows me and anybody who knew my stance on Lori Valow, no one would have ever could ever take it anything but facetiously that I was pointing that out. And it was specifically you because of our conversations about Lori Valow where you

21:49said, listen, and this is all true. She was declared incompetent to stand trial. Do you remember that? It took months. I thought nine months or a year for her to like that. A major competency. I want to tell you what the doctors who evaluated her, what she has been clinically diagnosed with, a delusional disorder, grandiose and percursitory type, hyper religious religiosity, tonality disorder with narcissistic features. Those are cluster beings. They're ideations. She was actually diagnosed. She is was treated. You've been saying she was not sure yet. But these are nothing that Lindsay Clancy has. I'm not saying it is. But just like you said, are we going to say somebody's cockadoodle nuts, lost touch, reality, it doesn't matter whether they touch reality because of those foreign diagnosis or because of PPP.

22:52I never bought any of that then and I don't buy it now. I don't think Lori Valow, I think she should be 100% how responsible she was by two different cards and I also think she should. But they're very, okay, so you're saying there's not a comparison. You're saying it was facetious that there's 100% anyone. Okay, okay, so is it any? I'm confused because you did a lot of comparisons. It seemed like one after another all weekend like, like how about this one? How about Airhart? Kayleigh Earhart. Is it a copycat? No, Airhart's husband reported her threats to kill herself and her children and mental health services before the timeline even works. CPS was notified, the threats predate the trial. Mother's killing their children is evil. Yes, nobody is arguing that mother's killing their children is not evil. I understand postpartum depression effects many and mothers will need help. Her defense is not postpartum depression, it's postpartum psychosis. Depression is sadness.

23:52Psychosis is a break from reality. Hallucinations, delusions, a brain that no longer knows what's real. You know the difference. It's not a great comparison. You made a lot of comparisons over the weekend and I had to start looking at all of these. Other than the fact that children died and there's a very unhealthy brain in all of these, that's kind of where most of these end. It's like, yes, there's a psychological component and there's dead kids. In terms of the modality behind them, none of them are really that comparable. There's just not a lot of cases that are that comparable to this. There just really isn't that are well known publicly, I guess we could say. Well, like I said, Tony, I would just argue, first of all, I was totally facetious and I think most people caught that, not everybody, but most people caught that. If they follow me because they know how I felt about Lori Valor.

24:53So that one was just saying, hey, for all of you trying to say, this is a wackadoodle at the time, what about Lori Valor? She actually has all this. So it's a terrible argument for both is my point. Do you believe in the other one that you named, the girl? The copycat, first of all, the other handle, her case was well before her. I know it not the criminal trial. I'm just saying her case and it being in the news and all of us knew about that. Lindsay Clancy, it was huge and the level of publicity. But the elements of the case aren't very similar. She's going to use, I promise you, watch, we'll sit back and watch. Everybody record this. She's going to say she had PPP. It's coming out of the woodwork. People are going to use it as an excuse.

25:54I think you know that. We all know that. It's a terrible argument. But the people can use it as an excuse or we just going to start recognizing it more when maybe we haven't in the past. We used to think people are possessed and we'd leech them and all sorts of shit. And then we moved on going, oh, maybe there are some actual therapeutic things we can do to help people with whatever we think is wrong with them. We're actually not that far removed from leaching in terms of history. So I wonder, I mean, yes, could it be used more? Yeah, I'm not going to say I know for sure or yes or no. But maybe this is something that it's recognized as one in a thousand right now. I do wonder is that extremely accurate? Are we just going to be able to recognize more of this in ways that we clearly have? Because clearly they didn't even like recognize the bare minimum with Lindsay. Hard to recognize when you don't tell your provider you want to harm your kids. Hard to recognize when you're not truthful about really how you're feeling.

26:57Hard to recognize when you don't mention anything about voices. Hard to recognize when you don't ask the right questions of your club, your patient. You know what? So if my patient lies, what am I going to do? I'm a tactical medic, many are asking this. Ask the question first. When I go and evaluate somebody and try to figure out the two things I figure out, right? Is this trauma or is this a medical situation? I'm asking, if they widen me, what am I going to do other than evaluate the signs and symptoms I see? No, I agree with you. So here, let's go back to the question. I'm curious about Jen, about your viewpoint on our justice system. You know, because we have that you can claim not criminal responsible or not guilty by reason and sanity. We've had in our criminal justice system. It's been adjusted because the constitution and our justice system is a self correcting document. They tightened it up in 84 because of the Hinckley case apparently when I researched that.

28:00But according to, I'm having a hard time understanding, do you believe that we should not have the possibility of not be guilty by reason and sanity? Because like, what's, because people get afraid that, well, this is going to open to floodgates. Well, it hasn't in the past. I mean, so Andrew Yates, I mean, this is the first one of major notoriety since Andrew Yates. And we're seeing how tightly it's controlled. We're seeing how we're arguing of it. I mean, there hasn't been a fear. No, there's been no floodgates that have ever been open from case before. And everyone likes to use that as an excuse not to do it this time. But the bar is so high to even be able to claim. I mean, so here's an example. You know, Nick Reiner. Nick Reiner, his attorney is battling to try to see if he can claim not, you know, not guilty by reason and sanity. And this look like probably not, you know, he's not going to reach that bar. So I mean, the bar for this is so high. But do you think we should even have it as one of the claims or one of the, the fences that can use or know? I do believe that it should be allowed for certain in mitigation.

29:05So in other words, like Idaho is a perfect example where there is no reason of insanity, but it can be used as factors can be used in terms of sentencing to mitigate somebody's actions. I like that the best. So it's not that I don't think that that cannot be considered. This is the problem. No one ever, let's be honest. No doctor, remember, Resnick failed in his first trial of Lindsey. They didn't buy his story. Andrea, Gary. I mean, did I say Lindsey? Sorry, Andrea Yates. Yes. You know, she was convicted. And then in the second trial, you have new people, you have a new presentation, whatever, Resnick, and then this time, you know, he did that analogy, which was critical, I think, what he did to basically blame it on religion. But no, I think I very much believe in mental health issues and mental health treatment and getting help. I want, I know people might be shocked at this. I really do want Lindsey, Clancy to receive help.

30:08And guess what? This is what I looked up over the weekend was you wouldn't believe how great Massachusetts penal system, how great their prisons are at allowing and giving health care to their inmates, mental health care, psychiatrist, and psychologist. And it's one of the best. And put her locker up. This is what I don't want her to have any chance whatsoever of ever getting out and tricking because the only person that really knows whether she was or wasn't in her right, my only person is Clancy. That's it. None of these, you know, psychiatrists know. Yeah. You can look at the facts, but we don't know. And then they want her to know as well. And so that makes, so okay. So I'm, how about this? Let's get rid of every single argument we have ahead of the outcome because the outcome that you're seeking is actually pretty congruent with what we were all thinking when many people

31:08are thinking, no one's saying we want her out. And everyone's saying we wanted to get mental health treatment because she's got a broken brain. And I think that's where there's a lot of congruence because that's what, I mean, I know, Todd thinks that. Tony and I have talked about that. I think that. I mean, I'm not looking for her to be free. And that's why I think we're getting, everyone keeps getting so wrapped up on, on, on the fear of her getting out, which isn't part of my calculation on this. It's, it's us wanting to learn from it and the fear of this repeating again, which I think is why I want the outcome I'm looking for is because I don't want this to happen again. And so, so that's, I think that's where we're all kind of more closer aligned than you would think because it's the one in the house you get to the why and the why is we just want this to happen to her and also for people from this point forward. But let me get a little more clarification if you could, Jen, are you saying you do on the mental health issue, you'd only like to see it in mitigation of the sentencing for anyone or do you actually still believe in the, it can be used as a defense?

32:11Well, it's almost used as a defense, no place because it's so hard. Yeah, well, typically the people have to show that they didn't understand right from wrong. Right. They always screw up and try to hide it and, you know, do what she did, get the guy out of the house. They always leave all these little breadcrumbs so you could tell they absolutely knew right from wrong. That's why it's a high bar. So no, I do not want it to be used except for in mitigation on sentencing as far as what you were discussing with these, with Clancy, I think she knew exactly what she was doing. So I want to be clear that I'm not at all crawfishing on that. I think she planned it, premeditated it and did it in her right mind, not in some sort of mental fog that she couldn't control our actions. So just to, I want to make that clear to get rid of her kids. But yes, but I don't think that she's a healthy mind.

33:13So what for what end? What do you think her, according to you, what do you think her end goal? Like what was her intent to get rid of her kids? Where did she, what was next? Oh my gosh, it was too much. She was absolutely overwhelmed with the thought of now I've got to go back to nursing school. And now I've got these kids to take care of. And I'm not meeting up to, you know, what I wanted, how I want this to be and how I want everything to play out. And they're just too much. I got Dawson. He's a hot mess. I, you know, just went through this whole sleep beat trying to get Callan to sleep through the night. And I had to stop nursing and I don't want to be judged on all of this. And I think she just, that was it. It just, you think she wants to get rid of them so she could free up time? Oh, time, not time control. She had totally lost control of how her trajectory of things. And she talks about that.

34:16She blames it on Dawson and Korra. Dawson and Korra aren't allowing me to be the mother I could be to Callan. So if you plan that out, see the resentment. So if you say she planned it out, what was her plan? I mean, so the plan is to kill him and then what? The plan was to kill him, which she, she did exactly what she thought. Back to her regular life. That's what you think her plan was. Plan did it. Oh, no, no, no. I think it was critical. And she well knew she needed to have a convincing argument that she tried to take her online. But she made too many mistakes. That's what people do. So, so the plan was to kill him, fake her suicide. Kill him. Well, she did kill them. And that was her plan. So yes. And, and that she's going to fake her S and then get away with it. That's the plan was a hundred percent. And she cut her veins in the wrong way. She superficially cut. She did not use the knife that most individuals who do this. And I mean, literally, I cannot find another case where you use a six and a half butcher

35:21knife. You use a paring knife or something small you can control. I bet you that thing was dull. We'll see what the jury comes back. She has a lack of planning, doesn't it? It, no, you know what it shows is these different way. No, she planned all this. Except she did a couple cuts here. I'm going to do it in front of the mirror. So pretty psycho like someone in the state of psychosis to me. What you're forgetting? She looked up, even though she's a nurse, you're forgetting she Googled, where is the carotid? Now, you might argue and a lot of people argue. See, this is why it's okay to everyone. She stood in front of the mirror. A carotid artery is difficult. Even as a tactical medic, I can tell you, yes, it's right here. But then where else can I cut? Like at this point, is it going to deep it a little this way, a little this way? So she makes a couple of little cuts, lowers herself. There's blood on the sill. There's blood on the shingles. She lands on her back. There's absolutely no contusions. Bruce is nothing on her head.

36:22How come no one testified to that? She died first. They did. No, they didn't. Oh, yes, they did. It was all debunked. No, no, no, no. Please go look at it. The prosecution didn't even, so the prosecution at the closing even gave up on the crawling down the side of the building. The prosecution even included in the closing. Oh, on that, I'm talking about the head, the bruises that were in the other eye. But the whole, the whole area for crawling out the window to fake it, that, the prosecution didn't even get any further. There was a bullshit theory by a police officer that was debunked. Right. Well, you can call it debunked. Was there blood there? Well, it wasn't ever a thing. It wasn't, I mean, it was like somebody's just like spouting off their opinion. It wasn't like studied or anything. It was like, it was like, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, and then they looked at it and they're like, nope, wasn't that. Every, so every single medical expert in there said this was a serious bullseye. Said this was a serious esotempt. A very serious esotempt. Not, not a, not a crawling down the side of the, the house thing. I don't think she went head first. That's a serious esotempt when you dive into the ground.

37:23They all said the shooting. So the experts that, that do this for a living that said they did, they're on. All I'm saying is I look at, they're on. The thing is I look at facts and I was listening. I remember listening and I'm like, oh my gosh, okay. So they all missed and you guys, she landed on her back. Where was her, where, and then when they said she didn't have any good, good conditions, bruises, nothing on her head. I'm like, that's playing on their works. I mean, yeah, I mean, if you don't know how that works and you understand the dynamics and the force and all that shit that I don't know much about. So you dive, but then you, but then you, but then you hear the experts testimony, you, you learn, oh, oh, you really can have this happen without contusions here and there. It's to explain that. She didn't explain that. All she said was, yeah, that's what happened. I was waiting for her to say it. But you can look it up yourself. I mean, there's, I did. I mean, that's how I understood it. I looked it up and I'm like, well, how can this happen? Because I was weird. I'm like, why isn't there any of that? And then you look it up.

38:25Oh, okay. This is typically actually how that happens when somebody makes a landing of that nature. And then what it actually looks like. Okay. It's, you know, Jefferson fracture also could occur when she landed as she was found on her back. How do you dive head first? And then you don't hit your head. And then you're on your back. So went the prosecution have brought that up, Jen, and not you? I mean, seriously, I mean, and so you're, you're, you're, I, again, I, I'm going on. I love that we're trying to focus on the facts of what was presented in the testimony. Don't we testified to what you're saying for the prosecution? The defense brought it up and the fence, I think, was eviscerated on cross because that doctor stuck to her guns without the physical support. And all she would say was, yes, yes. So please go back and review that. I will too. Okay. Specifically, it was asked, um, and wait a minute, doctor, did she have any bruises?

39:29Did she have any contusions? Anything on her head? No. Did she land on her back? Yes. Well, how white and you say she dove head first? Yes. Give me, give me something more. And I also say, don't forget that Lindsey Clancy was an acrobat. You're comparing her acrobatic abilities at the age of 13? No. No, don't have you seen in there the best athletes. She's in her 30s. Can you do what you did it like 18 when you were in your third? Maybe you could. I don't know. I'm not a people can't. I mean, I can't do it as well. So, so I'm on my track because she was a, there's also, yeah. But there's also an congruent. So she's, every single medical professional there, both sides, that she's got severe s ideation that she's severe. And so what you're claiming then too is that even though she had severe s ideation and

40:33she's still on s watch right now, the longest that the clinician has seen for three years while she's, you know, in custody. And then all of a sudden she's going to fake it. Okay. I just, it doesn't congruent between that. This is what's incongruent to me. Voices, whatever we want to say, her loss with reality, kill your kids. Oh, she did a great job with that. Now I need you to take your life. Oh, fail. I've heard so many prosecutors say that. Yeah, you're great to kill and others would not have killed in yourself, right? Yeah, exactly because you know why she thought, oh, oh, outshit her. And that's when she snapped into reality. How about when Koran Dawson weren't screaming for a life, their life over the three and a half minutes would have taken my. Unfortunately, we don't have the urn control over our own psychosis. My, my bet is if she did a better job of doing that to her, her throat and wrist, she went to jumped out of the window. And she didn't because it hurt.

41:35She didn't really want to hurt herself. Ouch. Ouch. It wasn't more important to her to take her life that out she hurt. And by the way, again, the wrong direction, she's a nurse, she knows how to cut those things. Maybe they don't, they don't teach you how to kill yourself in medical school. They don't. I'm a tactical medic and she had way more training and education than me. I'll tell you what, very simple to know. Listen to my daughter learn and had to go to extra school to learn how to do stitches and close up a cesarean section is, you know, kind of gives you an education on, you know, what they actually do learn and don't learn to come out of that going to the labor and delivering. I just truly believe she didn't try. Now, do I think there was a huge error in her judgment and she never thought she would be paralyzed. That's why the timing was important. Patrick's got to come home. He's got to save me. So she logically, so you're telling me she was thinking logically that if I kill the kids,

42:36I attempt to kill myself, but I survive. I will be found not guilty and we can just continue on with our lives or I can continue on my life, however I want to. I think it's very possible she's going to be found not guilty now. But I'm going back to what was the mindset? What was she thinking at the moment? 100%. She's calculating. What do you guys think? Tell us in the comments section on sub stack and YouTube links are in the description. We'll continue the conversation right there. Jennifer Coffin, that for break the case, get it wherever you get podcasts and on YouTube. Robin Dreek. I'm a retired FBI special agent. Give us your pitch for masterclass. Yes. I have my new class on masterclass. It's become the person everyone trusts. It was a great segue for today. You can go anywhere you get masterclass and you get other 200 other classes on there. So check it out. Thanks. Links in the description as well. Go and check that out. Press subscribe.

43:36Until next time for Jennifer for Robin and Todd. I'm Tony Brusky. We'll talk again real soon. Want more on this case and others? Come press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast.