Why JP Miller Went To A Bar Four Days Later

0:00This is the Big Breakdown. A long look back at some of the biggest stories we're covering for you at the Hidden Killers podcast and True Crime today. This is Hidden Killers with Tony Prusky. Things are about to get real for John Paul Miller. It's got the trial coming up in October. But even more important, Netflix is about to drop a new doc informing the world who may not know about John Paul Miller, JP, and the saga, the tragedy, and the death of Micah Miller, the woman who, in my opinion, and the opinion of many, was driven to end her own life because of the coercive control and the manipulating

1:03abusive behavior of Pastor John Paul Miller. That's my opinion. It will be litigated. If you're new to this whole story and you're going, what is this all about? Welcome to the video. Welcome to the channel. Hit subscribe. I'm going to give you the summary, if you will, is best we can. A very impassioned summary of this whole saga. There's more of it on our channel and there's going to be more coming because I can assure you we will be talking about this in-depth in the coming weeks as this doc drops with psychotherapists. I'm sure Shavon Scott, we're going to be on. There's already some great content. We Shavon talking about this case on our channel. Just search John Paul Miller or anything relating to this case on our channel and you will

2:06find it. On June 1st of 2025, John Paul Miller stood on a beach in Myrtle Beach. And Mary was third wife, armed guards surrounded the ceremony. None of the couples, seven combined children attended. That usually tells you a little something about what's going on with an individual. We're not even one of the seven will attend. His father, a man convicted of federal labor fraud, also walked the grounds. He's a big winner too and we may get to him in this piece if not, there will be pieces. Because that man also has a lovely string of allegations that have followed him throughout

3:14his life. And if you look at the son and the father, the respective women, I think really respective other people in general. The apple doesn't fall too far from the tree with fruit that to put it nicely lats that quality. The bride was Susie Skinner. It has of this recording she's still alive. It's a weird thing to say about someone's wife. Yeah, it is. Unless you're John Paul Miller's wife. This is an active story. He ain't locked away yet. And mark my words, there will be more drama. I just hope it isn't with you Susie in the ground. Let's just say you've been warned.

4:15Susie Skinner was a woman from John Paul's congregation whose previous husband had drowned in a community pool four years earlier. JP happened to be very close by at the time. Again, we'll get to that too. That husband was Chris Skinner, a quadriplegic army veteran and motivational speaker, according to sworn affidavit from Miller's first ex-wife, Chris had confronted John Paul two weeks before his death and asked the pastor to stop effing his wife, basically, to leave his wife and children alone. John Paul Miller's second wife, Micah, had been dead for 13 months. Her death was ruled self-inflicted. And that's a central thing to this whole story. I've not seen the Netflix stock yet.

5:15I haven't gotten any advance on it. I don't know where it goes, but I will say this. Be careful where it leads. I don't know where it leads, but I've examined this case deeply in the last several years. And at the end of the day, the conclusion I come to on Micah's end is also that she did it herself. How she got there, I think that's the story. That's me. That is the big crux of all this, of driving someone who's already suffering from some mental illness to that place. The ability to get someone there to take advantage of their weaknesses, of their illness in

6:21some ways, in many ways, actually, in my opinion. And treating them in such a way, and when you look at how he treated her, the things that had been said, the things that have been documented, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the total two-faced behavior of one person here, one person there, and the other, it's stunning. This is a stunning case when you look at the monstrousness of the behavior that appears to have taken place in that relationship, in my opinion. That to me is the whole story. I don't know that there's a road to go down where you can pinpoint, honestly, anyone else being involved in her ending it, in terms of a murder.

7:29What this is is far more sadistic, it's far more evil, it's far darker than someone stalking her down in the woods and doing that to her. This is someone who literally made life allegedly such hell in this woman's brain that she decided this was the best route. That to me is even scarier. There's a federal indictment, two civil lawsuits alleging assault of minors, an FBI raid with no public explanation, and a three-part Netflix documentary called Death of a Pastor's Life. That is coming out August 26th of 2026. So depending on when you're watching this, it may already be out. His federal pretrial conference is actually the day before that, and we'll be, we're

8:30going to be covering all of it. John Paul Miller didn't build himself from nothing. He's a second generation product. His father, Reginald Wayne Miller ran what was described as the largest charismatic church in eastern South Carolina. He had a Bible college named Cathedral Bible College, a morning TV show called Good Morning Jesus, and property he'd acquired from the old Myrtle Beach Air Force Base looked like a legitimate ministry empire for a while. It wasn't. In 1989, WPDE, air-to-five-part investigation where young men from Reginald's congregation appeared on camera and alleged he made advances towards them. In 2006, he was arrested at Bathhouse on charges that were later expunged. In 2015, Reginald fled guilty to four federal felonies and two misdemeanors, foreign students at his Bible college have been forced to work for a little to no pay, you know.

9:30Jesusy housed in substandard conditions and threatened with deportation if they wouldn't cooperate. Again, so Jesusy of him, after the conviction, he rebranded his organizations and went right home back to ministry. Pakistani men who'd worked with him later posted a video saying they didn't feel safe around him and asking him not to come back to their country. He kept going. In February and March of 2025, two women filed civil lawsuits naming both Reginald and John Paul as defendants, alleging the men used their positions as church leaders to target minors. One plaintiff says she was 15 in 1998. The other says she was 14 in 1999 and a student at Cathedral Hall Academy, a school-regional grand, one lawsuit sites tax messages in which John Paul allegedly admitted to relationships

10:31with 15 year old girls when he was 19. He's denied every allegation, of course he has. He's filed a counter claim calling them defamatory. No criminal charges have been filed on those claims. Reginald didn't respond to either suit. Default orders were entered against him. He told the court he's broke. John Paul Miller grew up in that house under that man inside those churches. He then became the pastor of Solid Rock Church at Market Common in Murdle Beach. Now if that's the environment you're growing up in. Is it all that much of a shock that you too may not necessarily have the best decision making abilities on the planet? It's not an excuse and it's not in any way wiping away the decisions. A grown-ass man named John Paul Miller has made. But it is identifying part of the recipe.

11:33When you identify part of the recipe, it's not too excused. In fact, it's almost more there to reinforce it to go, oh, all of these things over here. Look pretty true. Well, look at what he grew up in. Oh, and then you know how that tends to reflect itself in people. A reflection of what they came out of, what they grew up in. The flavor of soil and water of which they grew and you go, oh, well, yeah, that would be the type of plant that comes out of that. It's not a court finding. It's not a ruling. It's not a conviction. It's common sense. It's understanding people in psychology and how this shit tends to work, especially if they don't break away and do something completely different.

12:33John Paul, by most accounts, just said, nah, I'm good with this field. I'm going to keep farming here. And before Micah ever entered into the picture, his first wife already knew exactly who he was. In a sworn divorce affidavit, Alison Williams stated that John Paul had previously admitted to both me and our congregation that he had an addiction to prostitution. That's something a lot of people get addicted to. That's who he was before Micah walked through the door. Micah Francis moved to Murdoch at 15, got married at 18, divorced to 21. She went to work at Solid Rock Church where she led youth group worship sessions at the women's ministry. By every account, she was the hard to that congregation. In a police report filed in February 21, of 24, Micah told Murdoch officers, she'd known John Paul said she was, Bumpera, 10, 10 years old, that he groomed her while she worked

13:40for him at the church until they married groomed her through that whole first marriage. His attorneys called that false. Micah's sister, Sierra Francis, who said, it started about 14 or 15. Here's what isn't contested. John Paul Miller is 14 years older than Micah. She was a young woman working inside his church. He was the senior pastor. Alison Williams divorced him after discovering the affair with Micah. You know, Jesus, according to one account, Micah had been baby. He was a baby sitting as four children. They married in 2017. And while he was remarried to, while he was married to Micah, he was allegedly involved with yet another woman from the congregation. Susie Skinner. Alison Williams later called the affair in open secret.

14:43Susie Skinner, the wife of the man, the paraplegic. More hero, who they found at the bottom of a pool in his wheelchair, under one might say suspicious circumstances. In sworn testimony, in one of Miller's civil cases, Susie admitted she'd had an adulterous affair with him. Miller said that she didn't start dating until January 25. Her testimony under oath says otherwise. Chris Skinner, Susie's husband, the quadriplegic, sorry quadriplegic, not paraplegic, quadriplegic. Army veteran who'd been paralyzed at 20 in a car crash. She was a motivational speaker and author and a father of twins. According to Alison Williams, affidavit, Chris confronted John Paul about the affair two weeks before his death.

15:43That's important because on Labor Day at 21, Chris Skinner's wheelchair rolled into the community pool in market common. He drowned, strapped to the chair. His death was ruled accidental. Might want to look at the tape again. John Paul Miller delivered the eulogy at Chris Skinner's funeral. He stood in front of that man's family and gave the sermon. So here's who we're talking about. A man who confessed to a prostitution addiction to his own congregation then had an affair with a young woman from his church and married her who well married to. We're had an affair with another congregant. Well, federal prosecutors now alleged he will simultaneously cyber stalking his wife. You know, Jesus' stuff. The other woman's husband confronted him. That husband was dead two weeks later and Miller gave the eulogy.

16:44Surprise has taken this long for an Netflix stock. The federal indictment was filed on December 17th to 25 at a ledges to cyber stalking ran from November 22 through the day. Micah died 17 months tracking devices on her vehicle and intimate photograph posted online without her consent more than 50 contacts in a single day. These are all things that are alleged to have been done by the pastor. Interference with her finances and her daily life. He allegedly bought a tire deflation device online and used it to damage her car. Well, federal investigators asked him about it. Prosecutors alleged he lied, told agency tired of private investigator to keep Micah from buying firearms. Prosecutors say he actually used a PI to stalk her. That's not the work of a gaslighting narcissist or anything like that. I would challenge that. I would challenge that this is more than a narcissist.

17:45This is, I would go sociopath, possibly psychopath. That's my guess. I can't diagnose anybody. If we're watching the behavior as it's played out, you got some dark triads shit going on right there. Have fun with that Susie. Micah filed at least eight complaints with the Myrtle Beach Police Department. Eight. She reported tracking is stolen vehicle being hospitalized against her will eight times. She went to the police. In January 23, they separated in October 23. She filed for divorce. That filing was dismissed by consent order and she went back. In February 8th, 24, Micah was involuntary hospitalized for 48 hours. John Paul told the police she suffers from mental health disorders and has episodes on an annual basis.

18:46While she was inside, he showed up at the hospital and collected her purse and car keys. When she got out on February 10th, her car was gone. She met police in a Walmart parking lot to report it stolen. John Paul told officers he'd taken the car and prevented from being sold. And here's the part that should make your jaw hit the floor. He held health care power of attorney over her. The man she was accusing of controlling every part of her life had legal authority over her medical decisions. Court had given him that. The same police report is where she told officers about the grooming. She gave them the whole picture, the timeline, the car, the hospitalization. She handed them every piece of it. Two months later, she was dead and the man she'd reportedly still had, excuse me, two months later, she was dead and the man she'd reported still held that power of attorney.

19:46The weeks after that report, Michael wrote on Facebook that she'd been abused in every way I can think of since the day that they were married. She posted a video offering advice for people in abusive relationships. Her friend later said her final message didn't sound like a woman about to die. It sounded like a woman making plans to live. A post-nuptial agreement was drafted in February 24 giving Michael the Africa missions ministry, the dare to care mission and a bank account at South State Hospital. Interesting. Gifting missions in your post-nuptial agreement. Court records show she'd retained an attorney for divorce purposes. At an April 25th of 24, she filed for divorce a second time. Two days later, at 12.12 pm, she walked into a pawn shop at Joe White Avenue in Murdle Beach in Bonne Hamgun, Anne Ammo. Her phone showed a search for national parks near me. She drove 41 minutes to lumber river State Park in Robison County, North Carolina.

20:50At 2.54 pm, she called 911 and asked the dispatcher if her phone could be tracked. She said she wanted her family to know where to find her. A fisherman at the park heard crying, then a single gunshot her body was found in the water. Investigators confirmed John Paul Miller was in Charleston at a sporting event that day license plate readers tracked his vehicle. He was not in Robison County. Michael Francis Miller was 30 years old. The next morning, John Paul Miller, not by himself, not surrounded by friends and family, morning trying to get through this. The next morning, John Paul Miller in all of his narcissistic glory stood in front of his congregation at Solid Rock Church and preached a full Sunday service. He talked about taking a break. He said he didn't want to have to worry about the church.

21:52Then at the very end, he dropped it. Go to see the whole service. Doesn't mention a thing about her. Then at the very end, as if it's like, and by the way, there's coffee and donuts in the narthex. He says, I got a call late last night that my wife just passed away. It was self-induced. It was up in North Carolina. He told them she wasn't well mentally and he didn't medicine. It was hard to get it to her. Told them not to discuss her death then. Don't talk about it though. Let's not keep this to ourselves. We don't want speculation that there might be something going on. Then he handed the mic to another pastor and left. A body language expert who analyzed the video told News Nation, we're not saying any grief here. We're not seeing what we call adapters to things. We used to self-sude. He wrote her eulogy.

22:53He visited the morgue multiple times and said he'd hope she would wake up. Told his congregation. He tried to raise her from the dead. And to sit down interview with News Nation, that's one of the most bizarre I've ever seen. I do highly recommend watching it. He said, I am the only one not to blame. Then he went after the narrative. He posted TikTok videos claiming he had 350 pieces of proof about Micah's death and promising to reveal who was actually responsible. He said his silence up to that point had been nothing more than wisdom and self-control so that we can win the war that is up ahead. Grandios a bit. Four days after Micah's death, he was seen at a bar with Susie Skinner. Witnesses describe him as kind of sloppy. They took a shot together before leaving.

23:53The man has told his congregation. He tried to raise his own wife from the dead was out drinking with the woman. He'd marry 13 months later, helping her cheat on his quadriplegic husband. Prosecutors showed up in Solid Rock Church every Sunday after that chanting protestors rather showed up every a prosecutor's might have been a good idea to just start to get lay of the land. Protester showed up in Solid Rock Church every Sunday after that chanting justice for Micah. Miller's response was to set up sprinklers aimed at the sidewalk to spray them. He read an email to the son news calling the protestors pagans who were trying to stop Christians from worshipping the church's board relieved him of his duties. On November 1st, 24 FBI agents then raided his home and removed bags of evidence. No one said why. Five days later, he was arrested for assault and battery after a confrontation with a protestor, a woman who'd said, here kitty, kitty to him outside the church.

24:58Bond was $776. Movers emptied Solid Rock the next day. The lettering came off the building. The property sold in February at 25 for 2.15 million. He applied for a new ministry called Living Water Church. There's another one called Mercy Church Ministries. It's almost like they have dice. Some of these are different words on the dice. Wherever it lands, there were three letters. That's the name of your church. There were three words. That's the water living cross. It's the same word salad every time. It sounds deep and inspirational. Then you're like, wait a second. That's the name of every fucking church around. Then another one called Mercy Church Ministries, Scandal, Rebrand, Resume. It's kind of Dad's playbook. The civil lawsuits landed to women filing anonymously alleging assault of minors through the Miller

26:04family's churches in school. His father named his co-defendant in both defaulting on both. Miller denied everything and filed counterclaims. Then the wedding. This is where we started. Armed guards on a mortal beach beach. 13 months after Mike had died. None of their children present. His convicted father in attendance. Marrying the woman whose husband was wheeled into a community pool with rather close ties to JP. It wasn't suspicious. You want to go for a swim, don't you? Speculation was that the marriage was designed to keep them from testifying against each other. Spousal privilege doesn't cover premarital communications, though.

27:10The Horry County Corner responded or reopened the investigation into Chris Skinner's drowning in early 25 after new evidence surfaced. Evidence was reportedly sent to the FBI. Mortal Beach police reviewed the case and then reclosed it in March, saying nothing new, indicated a crime. Chris Skinner's sister told reporters it isn't over. On December 17th, the 25th of federal grand jury and I did John Paul Miller on cyber-stocking and false statements he pled not guilty on January 12th, 26, posted $100,000 bond, got an ankle monitor and was restricted to South Carolina. He's requested for continuances since prosecutors have described the discovery as volumous. His pretrial conference is August 25th. His trial has been pushed to October of 26th. Netflix documentary drops the next day. August 26th, produced by the same team behind the Murdoch Murder Series.

28:14Micah's friends and family are speaking publicly for the first time the footage hasn't been seen before. Micah Miller told police her husband has been controlling her since she was a child. She told Facebook she'd been abused in every way she could think of. She filed for divorce twice. She called 911 and asked the dispatcher to make sure her family could find her body. Eight police reports, healthcare power of attorney in his hands, a church that gave him a platform for two decades and not one of those institutions stopped what was happening to her. John Paul Miller has pled not guilty in faces up to seven years. He has a new wife whose previous husband is dead. He has a new church. The man who stood in front of his congregation and said he tried to raise Micah from the dead has never once said he's sorry for anything he did to her while she was alive. Micah Francis Miller was 30 years old.

29:16Yeah. So there's all that. We will continue to cover this case. We will continue to dig deeper into this case because there's a lot to be seen here. A lot to shine a light on. Into the dark empty void. Where John Paul Miller likes to pretend his soul exists. Your thoughts in the comment section on substacking you too. I'd love for you to weigh in. We'll continue our conversation right there until next time I'm Tony Bruceke. We'll talk again real soon.

30:25Micah was found dead from a gunshot with just 48 hours after serving JP with divorce papers, instead of interesting coincidence. The day after her death, JP held a bizarre church service. A year later he married Susie Skinner, a woman from his church whose previous husband died in a tragic pool accident, a quadriplegic that somehow wheeled his way into the pool. If that was on purpose, or an accident, well, it's been deemed an accident. That's where it sits right now, as of right now. No one's been charged and it has a murder. But again, little weird. Just a little. Shavon, the thing that I think strikes so many people, this man who apparently had this fervent, I don't know what it called, love, obsession with Micah and all the horrible things he was doing to her leading up to her death. But also he cares about her so deeply. He goes to such lengths prior to her death and then she's dead and he's able to just

31:33start a church service. He's joking at the beginning. He does a parody song to Billy Joel's in the middle of the night, the river of dreams. And he yucks it up on stage with one of the congregants. He's a whole sermon. Doesn't mention anything about Micah until the very end and then suddenly the lights go down and by the way, she's dead. Don't talk about it as you leave. Have a nice day. It's like, what kind of compartmentalization is going on here? I mean, I think the first thing anybody thinks of is, you know, you can take a breath if your ex-wife or your wife dies at circumstances like this. You know, I think everyone understand if somebody else took the reins that morning and did the show and did the church service. That wasn't what happened here. He was able to be very composed on stage there at the church and deliver really, I guess

32:35one would consider a normal service until the very end and even that was not, I would say, I don't know what normal is when you're describing something like that. It didn't seem, I guess, cohesive to reality. What the hell was going on there? How would you describe what you saw in that? Completely bizarre. That was, you know, when we were watching on YouTube, the different clips about this story when it first happened. That was the weirdest thing. I mean, there have been so many weird things about this. But that flies in the face of everything we know about how people process emotions. You know, just get up and give a sermon. If he had genuinely had any kind of loving attachment with her, it makes no sense at all. And again, you would think the congregation would go, well, this was a little weird, but these folks apparently didn't.

33:36It's completely strange. And again, with the kind of histrionic personality, they can, when they do the big emotions, like, oh, how much I love her and I want her back and I'm trying so hard to get her back, it's about this deep, you know, it's not real. None of that caring about her was real. She was an object to him. And this, you know, yeah, I don't even know how to describe it other than it's one of the weirdest things I've ever seen and witnessed. It seems he really had to tell the narrative that she was crazy. I mean, that seems to be the underlying thing. That was the theme. The whole time. Anytime he talked about it, like, well, you know, she's mentally ill. It's not, I mean, I think like a healthy person who has someone like that in their life that is trying to care for them and try to help them. When you're talking about them, that's not necessarily the thing you bring up into everybody. It's like, yeah, they're doing good. You know, like, and their bad shit fucking crazy. You know, I mean, I listen to me. That was something that you said.

34:37I mean, it got real like the pathology, everything. Like he was really, he was getting into her pathology with anybody and anyone who would listen. How important was that for somebody like that to basically, she's crazy. So anything that comes out of her mouth that's going to talk about me and my crazy, it just, it was a giant veil for covering up his shit. It seems like. And I mean, how much fear is going on there when she serves the divorce papers that I'm going to be exposed? I mean, the divorce papers get issued two days later, she's dead. I'm not saying he did it, but the narcissistic injury that I'm sure that caused was pretty deep and how he lashed out again, I'm not saying he did it, but how he then presented all of this out there was very much, you know, it's not about me at all. She's the sick one. It's talking about that. Yeah, always that was his agenda and he brought it up over and over and over and you know,

35:37she's on meds, she's not taking her meds, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we have no way of knowing the truth about any of that and where any of the meds appropriate would have been needed if she was not with him, which I think is a really strong possibility. Yeah, it's all self-serving. It's the story he's telling to make himself look like, look, I'm such a wonderful guy and she was crazy. And if that's not gaslighting, I don't know what is because he's playing a game on everybody and trying to manipulate and control the narrative to make himself look good. Yeah, I tell you, it was really, I mean, it was skillful manipulation because he's we've seen controlling narratives before with these controlling freaks. And he was definitely attempted to control the narrative, but his ability to do that so far in advance by laying the groundwork of her being crazy and him saying, please take

36:37the meds, he's laying up that, in other words, he can actually always preempt all of her actions or after the fact respond to her actions no matter what they are because he set it up months and years ahead of time with, well, she must be off her meds. I told her to take her meds and so no matter what she does, he's got the narrative under control. Even though he probably couldn't predict the future, no matter what. So he intuitively, it looks like control is that narrative preemptively with the people that he wants to bring into a circle. He gains these levers of control over them. Yeah. I mean, it's, you could write a book on how to be a narcissist. Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, how, talk about this for a little bit, like how frequently in practice do you see this sort of thing where you have a couple and they need some help, they need some direction and they're coming to you and it's this sort of a dynamic, not to the extreme where somebody's getting murdered, but where one is going to control the whole narrative of what's going on here. She's crazy or he's crazy and here's why when it really is the other way around, but

37:43it's being presented in such a way and they really think they can sell it to everybody. I mean, is this, you know, how does, talk to that of your experience? Yeah, it definitely does happen and that's when we can go back to the good old acronym that's so popular, Darvod, deny attack, reverse victim and offender and a guy that comes in like that will always present himself as a victim. And that's why my style with couples is to see them individually before I see them together because I want to hear really from their point of view what's going on and you pick up on a lot of this stuff that way and then see them together. And interestingly enough, a guy like this often, it's right out there and they start immediately telling the therapist, well, this is what's wrong with her and that's what's wrong with her and none of it fits the person that I met individually. And then I've even had them call me on the phone, which is quite interesting and leave

38:48a long voicemail about, let me tell you what I think about her and what you need to do with her. And it's always way off base, but it's this, you know, people like this really believe they can manipulate the therapist too. And it's prognosis, not good. These are the ones, what is treatment goal here? Help her see she needs to get away from him, you know? And sometimes it can go the other way with gender, you know? But when people come to marital counseling or couples counseling often they come in with the agenda, we just want to make this a good marriage. We want to transform this. And when you have this kind of abuse going on, they just need to get away from each other. And that's one of the reasons at this point in my long career, I prefer not to do a lot of couples just because I end up so much of the time saying you just need to get away from them. Yeah.

39:49And nobody wants that. They're coming in for help and you're like fucking run for your life. And sometimes they just need the validation and those are the people that come back to me 20 years later. Sure. And I just want to thank you so much for helping me see that I needed to get away. Is that what you typically do in those situations, Shavon? Because I mean, I'm sitting here thinking myself, you know, I've always thought of, you know, I would have liked to have done that going into counseling. I didn't have the 50 pound brain like you do for her. But you know, thinking I'd love to go in there and help and help be a resource for people moving forward with healthy relationships. Well, when you face complete nutters that are so entrenched, you know, like one like this, I say, I have such good healthy relationships in my life now because I see people's red flags so far in the distance that I just, I can say so far away. But in this case, it's right in your face. And so do you, I mean, what do you do? Do you do just say go away or do you encourage them to or do you take them on and try to fix

40:50them? Or do you just say, dude, you two just need to get away from each other? Well, I try to, I try to be a little less direct than you need to get away from each other. Probably not in the beginning what they want to hear. But I do, I'm confused a lot. And I'll say, okay, John, you say you love Mary, but X, Y, and Z happened. And just in front of me, you just said these really incredibly mean criticisms. How is that love? And you explain how that's loved to me. And then he'll go into his self-justification and then I'll say, okay, that sort of sounds like control. And can you see things from her point of view he never can. And so there's a lot of questioning and confusion. And then somewhere near the end of the visit, and this is often in one visit, I'll say, you know, it sounds like you're very happy with who you are.

41:53And the only thing you see here is that you want Mary to be submissive and to, you know, agree with everything you want. Are you happy with how you are? Do you have any goals to work on yourself other than come in and sit here and point the finger at Mary? And he doesn't. And he'll say, no, I think I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine. And then I look at Mary and say, Mary, are you hearing this? He is fine the way he is. And often I get this surprise look. And that can be the place where you intervene and where you see a shift. So it doesn't know either that way, but that's my. And you call an Uber for one of them so you don't hear like about. And then they drove directly into an 18 wheeler on the way home, you know, because I mean, I would be, I mean, honest. I've been in an ex. I've been in a session before where it was just like, you know, things were brought to light

42:53where it was uncomfortable for her of like, and then, and unfortunately we drove together and she was driving us and trust me. I was gripping the like plea, like if I have to go and grab the real wheel really quick because I think she might be a little uncomfortable with what was revealed about her psyche here today. One more thing on this, just over a year later, JP married Susie. Skinner, we talked about that a little bit. Shockingly Susie's previous husband died in a mysterious pool accident. And JP had officiated their wedding too. What is with this guy officiating people's weddings and then sleeping with the bride? And then I mean, this is like, what are the odds here on this? I mean, I mean, statistically, I can't imagine there's a lot of people who have officiated two weddings for people, eventually married them and then have like two rather shocking deaths connected to said person or person's partner shortly thereafter.

43:54I mean, that to me, red flagged. But the legal England is what it is. I mean, I guess what I mean, I don't know what the question is, but what do you make of that pattern that we're seeing here with JP? Another bizarre thing, another bizarre thing. He does one weird thing after another. And you almost get the sense it's, it's look what I can get away with, look what I can do. And he's attracted to that sense of power. It's, yeah, there's just every which way with this guy, it signs of toxicity, narcissism, histrionics, mockioffelism, he's manipulative. He's the full old country buffet of cluster B. Like what do you want? I'll go to the cluster B bar over here. It's right next to the salad. Looks delicious. It's got this little dirty over here. One more, if we have a second. So we haven't really talked about what makes someone like this yet.

44:56No, because we talk about those arcs. I love talking about those arcs because they're so predictive, you know, passes, prologues with these sorts of things. And it's easy to talk about psychopathy because that's a lot of malformations, brains. And then some, you know, part of how you grew up as well, it might, you know, throw some cares, you know, but someone like JP, what kind of, is there a typical upbringing that someone has or a typical background that they have that creates this sort of super uber-controlling nutter that wants to sexually abuse people? Again, all conjecture. Yeah. But from what we saw from the special, what makes that nut? We'd love to have the exact template, right? Best guess is, you know, we know a lot of personality traits are inherited. We understand that far more than we used to. He had a dad who was apparently very sexually compulsive, very manipulative, very similar, also a pastor who did terrible things. So my guess is there's a genetic component to the personality.

45:59And then he was raised by someone that he modeled after. And if we got enough into his childhood, what kind of kid was he? He was probably weird in elementary school and a lot of this stuff was going on. So. Well, that would be interesting. That would be a, that's the sitcom, right? They're dark sitcom, JP in elementary. As a child, yeah. As a child, I can only imagine the horror stories. Well, piano prodigy turns into complete nutter creep. If I had an extra day of the week, I'd be like trying to find like the yearbook and reaching out to the classmates that went to school with them. That would be a very interesting. Huh. You might find it was only three of them that they were in a classroom or a room together in someone's house coistered. It's true. That might be what we find. You're exactly, yeah, I'm going to dig. I'm going to dig a little bit. Hard to imagine him in public school and making it through, but maybe I don't know.

47:00I don't know. Maybe he's on the playground like doing like preaching as a child or something. It's got a little cult started in third grade. All right. Your thoughts in the comments section, sub stack and YouTube. We'd love for you to weigh in. We're of course going to keep following this as it continues to go forward. There's so much more to this case. I'm so happy Netflix finally brought it out into the ether beyond just the handful of us who've been reporting on it. And then John Paul attacking everyone who does in a very coercive controlling sort of way. Sorry, John. It's out for Netflix now. The world's coming for you. Have fun, JP. All right. Your thoughts in the comments section until next time. For Shivan, whose latest book is right here in Nightbird. Got it right here. Check it out wherever you get books. Robbins got master class. Robbins. Yes, become the person that everyone trusts. That's a great theme for everything we do every life. And yeah, and you get it on masterclass. You go to masterclass.com backslash robin.deak.

48:03My name, that's it. Good times together. Well, links in the description as well. Go and check that out. Until next time for Rob and Shivan and Todd, I'm Tony. We'll talk again real soon. Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now. Don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast.