Lindsay Clancy Could End Up Like THIS Other Mother

0:00This is the big breakdown. A long look back at some of the biggest stories we're covering for you at the Hidden Killers podcast and true crime today. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Drink. The jury as of this recording is still out. They've already come back once and said we can't get to a verdict. The judges sent them back. Bob Mottah defense attorney is with us. Along with Robin Drink, retired FBI special agent. So let's play it out. Let's go down the scenario of they do come back with a hung jury. There is no verdict. Will the Commonwealth try this again? We were talking in another segment about you can't do a bench trial on a first degree murder charge. Do they recharge it to go to a bench trial just so we can get through this damn thing with some sort of conclusion or do they keep hitting their head against a wall over and over and Lindsey Clancy is going to be tried until she's in her 80s.

1:03My prediction is she probably makes an exit on her own fruition before we get there. But what do you think happens here Bob if they do have a hung jury? I don't know. I honestly don't like I've been I've been saying before the trial started. I've told you and they like and we've agreed on it. I've probably practiced for a long time and I can't think of a more difficult case for a jury to try to reach a verdict on and it's basically because of the things we've been talking about in our last two segments. You have people of the mindset like you know I mean we could just look through our chat. You know palm tree G wanting help and actually following through properly on that help are two different things and Lindsey Clancy neglected the latter part. I disagree completely. I mean I absolutely disagree completely. I think she did. I'm going to go ahead and take Lynn you know Lindsey's mother-in-law Sue Clancy's word over years palm tree and what she said on the stand when she does one on behalf of her ex-daughter-in-law who had ended the last grandchildren was that begging for help.

2:10She went she called the suicide hotline twice. They said well you don't have a plan. We're going to give you some resources. Here's a pamphlet. Good luck with that. You tried to get into the postpartum program at women's and children in Rhode Island. They said they took her in for a day. They said unfortunately we can't allow you into the program because you're over medicated. She went in for five days at a skeleton crew at McLean and basically she said you know I'd like to get home for my kids birthday. They said well you know you seem like you're doing better. Pats are on the head and gets her out. And she was there the therapy she received was you know doing a little coloring playing with some clay and you know you need to understand it. Well we're able to tell ourselves that we're no we're attending to them. They're getting their service and we're checking a box but we're not actually checking what we're checking the box for. That's a problem. Yeah I mean dude we become a society of check the box so we feel good and we can tell ourselves we've done the right thing but what's actually being done is shit.

3:13I'm not about going to question for you. I would ask Palm Tree what else should she have done? And that's my question so yeah. So Coffin Defer asked me a question yesterday I didn't have an answer for because I couldn't think of anything. I want to know if you have one. Coffin Defer asked so did Lindsay do anything wrong? Ever is basically did she do anything wrong throughout this entire ordeal? Well yeah I think she under reported but she under reported because that's what she got. How women are like this? Right well but everyone, every woman if you talk to women that have gone through it yeah and are talking about how they don't feel comfortable bringing forth everything that they may be going through out of fear of consequences whether it be I lose my kids I lose my nursing license my husband leaves me yeah I get sectioned and I'm stuck in like all those really that to me that's where this lives like there has to be legislation.

4:15I have somebody on my my live right now our names Lisa Tremaine she has an amazing clinic and she's got 47 women in there with their kids right now that she brings them all in. She brings in the women they are allowed to report fully what's going on with them with no repercussions it's all confidential the kids are there so they continue the mother child bond the women are monitored constantly they then bring in the families what this woman is doing is incredible yeah that woman Lisa Tremaine who is based out of New Jersey she saves lives if if Lindsey Clancy had been aware of Lisa Tremaine had gone in and even just brought Kalan with her so that she could work it through whether it takes and they live there they live in this in this center and they receive the treatment on a daily basis and it doesn't matter how long it takes when they're good that's when that's when they leave it doesn't matter if it takes a week if it takes months they like that's what was missing here and it's what's

5:21missing all over this country and and for me to see women that turn on a woman who clearly was going through it because there's one thing that's not it did debate anymore like everybody agreed she had a mental disease or defect now people are you know the sides are arguing about exactly what it was yeah but there was no question in terms of this case that she had a mental disease or defect at the time of these homicides everyone so you know I mean for me man it's like my hope has been that that these children these beautiful children that lost their lives who we all care about and that there's there's no more disgusting comment than saying that we're talking about trying to focus on stopping this from happening in the future and using this case as the jump off point to really have the discussions and have the law changed so that women can feel free to do what Lisa Tremaine is doing because women don't feel like they can be completely honest about what's

6:25going on for all the reasons that I just discussed so when they under report this is the result you can get now this is obviously the worst case scenario and and this was you know you can't forget the fact that we're like in the second year or for like in the middle of the I don't know what like a year and a half into the shutdown and we're just coming out of it telemedicine had become the norm yeah because that was the only way like it was this perfect storm of shit that was going on on top of the fact that she just wasn't receiving the treatment that she needed you can't just throw drugs at people without the other part of it which is the actual therapy you know you can't have it where if she says I'm having in truth of in truth of thoughts and you ask one question about it well what oh well you know of like harming myself from my kids and then you don't follow up and say well I need details like any good doctor is going to say I need more I need to hear

7:26everything that you're thinking like that never took place with her you know and I don't know what she's disclosing to her mother or her husband we know from her journal you know that she was feeling the distance between her and Pat growing because this had been going on for four months you know what a woman is going to be conscious of the fact that like um you know I've been going to do this for four months and I'm like torturing my husband and you know I get the arguments that that Pat should have said you know what fuck it you get into that bad and you get right I want to take care of everything and like and that's a fair argument and it wasn't just him that was a whole family stood by her that's what is still the most unbelievable thing to me when everyone argues anything on this that with their opinion on the outside I said I stand with the family I stand with the family on what their assessment of her was because it's I've never seen anything so congruent yeah I'm curious what it's going to look like at sentencing no matter what happens and when the victim impacts statements get up they you know what what what they stand with her they saw something

8:29was wrong they saw the break you know after the fact because again everyone's got the armchair quarterback going you know after everything happened and I there's no unhealthy wobbles prior to that on behalf of family or observers I'm I'm a northerner but I live in the south now and so I I've I've actually taken up a colloquialism of the south bless your heart during this and that's something I never used in my life I never really know what it meant I know what it means now and I'm sure not her it means you know you know you're yourself it means yeah it pretty much means that it means essentially you say it when someone has no clue what the hell they're talking about but they really think they know what they're talking about and there's so many people in this case that are are watching it and and bless your heart everyone is free to their own opinion without a doubt but you can show spot someone who has never had any experience in their life with mental health crises of their own or people immediately around them by the way they react to this case

9:32and bless your heart that you've never had that thank God you've never had that because I too was just as ignorant as some of these comments before I encountered the insanity of what mental health crises can be like in your life and you start trying to understand them and you try to start making sense of it and you learn a lot more and you educate yourself a lot more and you end up with a very different understanding than the kind of closed off world that we all come into until we're actually confronted with these sort of nightmares had on and once you've hit it had on you don't ever see things the same way again and there's a lot of people who again bless their hearts have never had to be there consider yourself fucking lucky just consider yourself lucky pre-tune fuck up pre-tune that's right I mean people out there saying God bless you know bless their hearts of the three of us who I'm sure yeah I'm sure but you know what you fucking saying it right fucking lived it so I can speak on it a bit and and it's yeah I mean it's living in a

10:35world with someone who's going I never had postpartum psychosis with a partner but I had depression that she was going through and and and a bunch of other shit too and oh my God I mean it is I have a ton of empathy for Patrick and everybody who's like you should have done that so you should have done that should he have you should he have checked with you and take a talk first before he took a breath and then went out and and and and and had a night to himself to breathe after three years of post after three children and postpartum every time and they had ake in the nightmare and the the emotionally you know soul destroying moments that come along with it should he have never done anything to to take a breath for himself should he have not found love in three years and three years too soon for I mean it's just fucking mad me try to fill the gaping hole in their lives with with with attacking someone else trying to find the whole the loss of the three children the loss of

11:35his wife because that's not his wife that's still alive and then that I still can't oh because again we're talking about the war issue in people in combat the survivors guilt he must have I can't even I can't even fathom you know because all these things that people are piling on on him on do you think he hasn't thought that a million times over the last three plus years every single day of his life that he I mean how can how could he not think in terms of if I had only done this I'd have three babies still how can let alone the lost home so that's why like I lost my guilt when I lost when I lost my cool on Friday with that same kind I lose it on these things when you don't ever assume how parents feel about their kids and place your own shit on it because you are way off the mark well it's a good thing Karen and Paduca is here to keep us all on the up and look man I just want to say this before we wrap I am so so thankful that you two guys in particular in my life especially in a case like this it's it's it feel they can feel lonely out

12:41there as a man you know speaking on this because in terms of postpartum we have no fucking business talk about it but in terms of the importance and the understanding of mental health and mental illness man to have to have two guys like you that that are of the same mindset is so fucking important to me so I think you like a man that you want to try try being a law enforcement guy former FBI standing like this I'm standing against everyone yeah as well am I because like man it's just crazy and everyone who's standing up and and really taking the time I really a pre-ex I do you know this is an interesting case where a lot I mean and there is a lot of dig in and and people aren't going to change their opinions but honestly I I've in this case more than others recently I have seen from a lot of comments of I went into it this way and you know what I'm thinking about it differently because I educated myself so and that's good that's all it's all and it's all I asked to anyone asked is just take the time absorb the information let it stew a little bit and then come out don't don't come back with the bumper sticker answer

13:45the moment you hear the name and no and we're not trying to say free or no I want her locked away and getting ready is that I'm adding the end getting help you know but locked away hell yeah what are you absolutely everyone that's what she needs to be locked away and get the help that she needs yeah all right we'll wrap it up your thoughts in the comments section uh Bob you're still live over in defense diaries right now indeed let's send them over there go check out defense diaries right after this you're going to be continuing over there and I'm sure the conversation's going to be great so continue the live coverage uh and watch it over on defense diaries uh and press subscribe wherever you get the podcast robin he uh has a new masterclass oh yeah uh just just dropped late last week robin tell them more yeah my class on masterclass is be the person everyone trusts how do you become the person everyone trust critical thinking of basically what we're talking about ears how do you have deep empathy to understand other people from the standpoint so you can make those make those connections and be the person that everyone

14:48wants in their lives and trust with the the link in the description or a masterclass search robin and you will you will find his class so go check that out all right press subscribe we'll continue our conversation in the comments go to defense diaries if you're watching us right now and uh you'll pick up more coverage over there listen to buried yeah and buried Tim all right until next time for robin for Todd for Bob I'm Tony brusky we'll talk again next one want more on this case and others then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony brusky and the hidden killers podcast this is hidden tillers live with Tony brusky and robin drink the linsey clancy trial is reaching its climax a hung jury appears to be increasingly likely a mistrial would mean the charges remain the evidence remains in the woman at the center of all of it is still sitting at chukesbury hospital waiting to find out what the commonwealth of massachusetts plans to do it looks

15:54like nobody is going to get a clear verdict from this trial if that's where it goes not the public not the families not linsey clancy herself today we're joined by defense attorney and former prosecutor Eric fattis to walk us through the potential road ahead if a mistrial is in fact declared how quickly we'd know if there's a second trial whether the defense has options nobody's talking about and what a plea deal even looks like in a case where the whole argument is that the defendant wasn't responsible for what she did Eric if a mistrial is officially declared in the jury is sent home what happens to linsey clancy is it true to should just go back to tukesbury and they figure out what happens next or until the next hearing or trial what what what are the possibilities there is how how quick does a d a decide we're going to try this again go back to the hospital or you're free sure so i don't think it's going to be a you're free outcome i think

16:55what's going to happen if there is a mistrial there are a number of steps that are going to take place um first the judge is unless the prosecution already made the decision as to whether or not to to retry the judge had probably set a hearing like a week after the mistrial say hey prosecutor you got a week think about this are you going to um seek a retrial or not if for if a retrial is sought then linsey clancy throughout that week and throughout the pettency of the retrial would probably remain in custody my understanding is that she's at some mental health facility but under like law enforcement supervision um and and and so she couldn't ask for a bomb she could uh she could absolutely ask for a bond and and and reddened and could go to the judge and say hey look this case uh just shows how many weaknesses there are in this case you know they have all of this time they couldn't bring it together they couldn't get a conviction um because of these weaknesses you you should um have less concern about linsey clancy she is probably going to prevail in the

17:56second trials what ranting to would argue therefore you should give her a bond you should let her be out of custody she's already gone through this crucible that's what defense would argue i think the judge would be hard pressed to to release linsey clancy pending a new trial now if no new trial is sought then there is no case pending and in that instance linsey might be free but what about her care i guess is the question she's already stated before this trial you know i i want to be essentially in uh in in state care in a mental hospital for the rest of my life um that's kind of where that sits let me ask you this from a strategic standpoint uh if we do have a hung jury yes ratting ten could come say you know and ask for bond that that could get linsey out of tux fairy i don't know that linsey wants to be out of tux fairy um or at least out of a a a environment where she is getting uh that sort of round the clock care uh and uh right now it's

18:57it states ancient it's state paid for uh if you're out of that guess what you better have the money to to pay for that care for the rest of your life um uh and the optics because if this does go to another trial and she's out on bond half of the argument has been look she doesn't want to leave the mental hospital if she left the mental hospital between trials that that kind of takes that argument a way that actually does play in her favor wouldn't she be better off remaining in the psychiatric facility at least through some sort of determination here in uh legal sense versus bonding out for a time being uh if we were to go to a second trial i think absolutely it would be in her best legal interest to to be there um uh in park as it preserves that argument that hey she's doing everything she could she's seeking all the treatments she can seek like she's trying her darned us to to get a grasp on this it preserves that argument for defense later on um

20:01and you know uh if if she were uh released from the facility but wanted additional care you can always seek to commit yourself you can say hey i think i'm a danger to myself and others state help me um and sometimes you you will be accepted into programs sometimes not uh so there are ways for her to remain in there if she wants to but probably not forever unless that is the result of a legal proceeding interesting and i'm looking up the stats on the probability of getting bail bond after this anyway too so stemming comes in yeah um there's obviously um you know the jury is signaling deep divisions here the judge read them the uh toe rodriga's charge which essentially tells the jury that no future panel will hear better evidence than they did okay i mean neat i'm on the jury and i hear that i'm like yeah no shit um and they're still struggling

21:02i notice is how it it's done there in Massachusetts reading reading that charge out to them does it make a difference does it does that hey guys ain't going to get better than this does it does it ever like does it put weight on a jury to make a decision or is it just like another no shit moment for the jury that is such a concern it is the potential course of effect from such an instruction so let me give you example let's say back there there are 11 not guilty and one guilty and and this one guilty just firmly believes hey she is guilty i did this is my determination as a juror after hearing everything well if if the jury then goes to the judge and says hey we get we're deadlocked and the judge says keep trying go back and then they come again and they say hey judge we're still deadlocked we tried it's not change it and and the judge says why don't you go back you're gonna have to finish this um the jury doesn't necessarily know that if they go back a third time mistrust likely to be determined instead maybe that one hold out who thinks their guilty just says

22:05how am i getting out of here i'm not getting out of here unless i change my position we're gonna be I could be here who knows for days weeks on and i've already been here for weeks and weeks and weeks um i'm gonna cave i'm i'm just gonna jay i gotta go on with my life and that is that a very real concern i think for both sides in terms of the possible course of effect of that instruction how do you avoid that i mean so help me understand with this uh and what's the thing that he invoked um the judge is that that that that to the that to experiment yeah to train right reggaes yeah yeah so what exactly is that and what are the consequences to the jurists at this point if any sure so yeah so what that what that means Robin is that the jury goes and says we're deadlocked the court says hey i get it guys this is tough um but no one is in a better position to decide this case and what you should do is you could you should reconsider your views you should be open-minded to other people's expression of their views and you should not um relinquish any strongly held

23:05beliefs if you firmly believe one thing or the other so it's kind of just like hey keep thinking about it bro and um you know how helpful is that and and what effect could that have on jurists who like i said they're not advised that if they come back a third time deadlocked it's likely a mistrial they don't even know that that that that could be the outcome and so the jurors are probably back there thinking they're not gonna let me out of here unless unless somebody caves and i could get on with my life and that it would only be a perversion of the uh jury system in my mind and so that couldn't be used by reddington boy i'm learning from eric so that could not be used from reddington as a reasons for appeal unless there's evidence that it actually did influence one in other words as long as they they came back and they did all agree reddington has no appeal unless through a podcast interview or something one of the jurors says yeah you know when he came in the third time i felt the pressure and i just wanted to get out of there is that then enough for reason for appeal and they would probably need some kind of uh statement from some juror however

24:10limited uh that that said hey um you know i changed my mind in part because of these of the pressures that i felt associated with this instruction associated with this process so i'll riff on that one one deeper say there's a juror that is completely or a couple completely sick to death of being here at the stress the time the agony the contentiousness that says hey i'm gonna end this right now by agreeing and then in their mind they said and then i'm gonna go public with it so they can retry and get my way that would be um uh pretty uh thoughtful i'm not sure in terms of forward thinking and in terms of plan uh but but yes a juror could choose to do that and then sort of up in the whole thing we've seen cases upended by juror statements after trials before has that happened and i mean have you seen that happen intentionally i i can't say that i have but there's a zillions of trials and i'm only aware of a very small

25:15yeah i mean i mean that could i mean it would i mean it's not could it truly be a strategy because i mean if there was an attorney that was seen being involved with trying to get a a juror will be asked you that a jury after the fact not not influencing the juror during the process but after the fact you're the you're the attorney for the client and and you happen to get there's a juror that comes to you from the last trial and says you know what i think this is bullshit i want to speak out about it uh and i i just went along with this because this was my plan all along does exactly what robin just said and you're the attorney for the other what do you do with that information do you run with it i mean you're not the one who's who had this strategy this juror decided to go rogue and try to take the law into their own hands and control the whole trajectory of this damn thing i mean does that does that just throw their credibility out you know immediately if they're doing that or what i don't know this is this seems like it could be a very

26:18common scenario considering the way that the the world is viewing true crime and the fervor that people have for it germ is conduct is one of the most frequent grounds on which convictions are overturned and and so in juror has some rules that they have to base their decision on the evidence and not on some strategy not on some personal payoff that i get to get out of here not on some you know um uh uh thought that oh i'm going to get some attention or whatever after this if i do this kind of weird thing i think it would qualify as juror misconduct and would likely result in some kind of reverse god yeah so they're misconduct their goal of it would i mean could there be charges for insurance or that just that admits to doing something like that i mean are they really doing anything illegal other than just be a flexionary be a hindering to society right that's not always that's not always a crime i've got some friends who are major hinders

27:21yeah they're free but um you know i think uh i can't think of any sort of criminal action it wouldn't be tampering now wouldn't be tampering with a juror because it's yourself and you're not exerting influence over somebody else i don't i don't see a crime in that i don't know i'm still looking up the last of my ayes running slow on this because i'm asking all about these these crazy questions about the uh juror intentionally undermining the process so they could get go home finally so they could actually reverse it the way they wanted so it's actually coming in right now so keep going Tony one more question uh are we going if this jury does come back hung do we find out the final counter does the judge decide if that information gets out um i i would be doubtful that the public would find out sometimes when there is a um a hunterry both science want to know what the count was you know if it was 11 not guilty one guilty that may cause a d a to not retry the case

28:27whereas if it was 11 guilty one not guilty that'd be a good grounds to retry it so it's it's pretty common for the attorneys to learn the split if the judge permits it public not so much interesting yeah and so here's what i found out um holdouts get worn down they they do this like we just described what happens in those cases almost nothing because once a verdict is taken and the poll is clean courts will not let a juror undo it by saying i caved or i planned to talk later um that is no one that's the no impeachment rule internal pressure fatigue wanting to go home that stays inside the room so um it wouldn't work it happens though they try they try fascinating what if it is a lot of what ifs that's the choose your own adventure version of the the case today all right all right that'll wrap it up uh your thoughts in the comments section on sub stack and youtube links are in the description uh be sure to uh check out uh robin's master class

29:28it is available now the link is uh going to be in the description robin yeah it's uh masterclass com backs lash robin drick is all about behavior assessment and becoming the people everyone trust so if you're interested check it out all right check that out eric phatis defense attorney former prosecutors always thank you so much for being on and giving us your insight on Thursdays as always until next time for eric for Todd and myself and toni brusky will talk again real soon want more on this case and others then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from toni brusky and the hidden killers podcast