The Health Uncare system | HBR Talk 413

0:00Hello and welcome to HBR Talk 413, the Health Uncare System. I'm your host Hannah Wallen here with nonsense annihilator Lauren Brooks, who might be AFK at the moment. The personification of perceptivity Mike Stevenson. Hello, I'm just going to go and check in on learn. I'll continue. Richard the Landhearted. Hello, and the Dojin charge Brian Martinez working in the background to make everything happen, but you can't hear him. I can, but he's not talking right now. That might be pathological or before we get into everything happening. We got to do what we got to do and I'm going to do it before I start talking about anything else this time, because otherwise it's going to be stuck in the middle of the show. As always, Honey Badger Radio dishes out a smorgasbord of thought provoking discussions. And as experiences both recent and long past have demonstrated,

1:02the provoked thoughts are fighting back and provoked thoughts are becoming dangerous guys. They made it clear that for people like us relying on any third party payment platform like Patreon, a fund our work is treading on thin ice or building our path and our house and the path of a rapidly growing wildfire. Should look at the page and try not to do that for memory. In light of this, we strongly encourage our supporters to switch at least their support for us to feed the Badger.com. The most stable way to help us out. And if you want to tip us directly instead of relying on any social media platforms tip jar, the link for that is feed the Badger.com slash just the tip. And as always, the same risk applies to our social media platforms, which is why you should further provoke the thought police by tracking our thought provoking discussions on honey badger brigade.com where you can feed find your way to all of our content as well as a link to feed the Badger in the drop down menu at the top of the page.

2:04And speaking of feeding the Badger, the mixed up meetup is after tomorrow. And we will have Brian and Lindsay and we will have Mike and Lauren because I said so. We will be doing the fundraiser through well, whenever we get the amount total. So I had some credit. I used it. We are going to have them here because I said so. But, but I'm still going to try to get reimbursed by the fundraiser because it is credit. It's it's not actually money I have. So it's that or lots of overtime, which would be worth it because I said so. Damn it. I will get to see them. Everybody will get to see them, but me first. We'll get picks. We will get picks. We will we'll show you the business that we go visit.

3:07And then all of us will give it a good rating on Google if we can. Just because we're where those kinds of people. But in the meantime, we will meet up for everybody that's coming. We will meet up at the right Patterson Air Force Museum at noon. And once we've met up, you know, we'll sort of go through and see the neat stuff in the museum. There's all kinds of jets and some rockets and, you know, a whole lot of different historical relics, different things that have been a part of Air Force history and flight history. And then probably after everybody's seen everything and one to see, which will probably be around, you know, for it usually takes us three or four hours to go through there and enjoy ourselves.

4:07We'll we'll go to the next venue and everybody that is at the Air Force Museum will be told where the next venue is going to be. It is about a mile maybe drive. But you only have one turn after you get on the main road out of the Air Force Museum. So there you go. It's not not a not a weird distance or anything. So with that, I can say go to feed the badger.com to support the badgers. And to support the mixed up meet up, there is a fundraiser for that. And it should be showing up on the front page. But in case it's not, let me see if I can actually give the link. It is feed the badger.com. So you can ask for the flash product slash mixed dash up dash meet dash up.

5:11And that's that's the the link to the fundraiser. So if you can support Mike and Lauren. Going to the fundraiser, then are going to the meet up. Please do so. We would greatly appreciate it. You are reimbursing Hannah for the generous offer. We will already be there. That's that's a believer given. Yes, yes, it is. And so playing tickets are purchased. The hotel is booked. Everything is set. Please, please donate so that Hannah's generosity is reciprocated. I would I would greatly appreciate it. And like I said, otherwise, otherwise it's going to be a lot of extra work. But it's something that I could do because if I need to do it over time is always available with my company. So that is that is a good thing.

6:11So don't go without meals to donate. But if you got some extra bucks, think about us. And my page wants growl. So I'm going to go to the fundraiser. All right. So. There we go. So Mike can get things to move around a little bit here. Because I said so. We were steer basically. We had read. I believe this part. And we had not read this part. So we are going to finish this article. And then when we finish this part of this topic, we also have this is a foreshadowing. This guy's name is shadow. No, no coincidence there are no pun intended. But we're going to talk about this in his post because it was a very astute observation.

7:16And people took it all kinds of wrong ways. And I think some of them did it on purpose. This is the old quote, a PUA. This is the old PUA quote. Yeah, the women control access to sex, but they're right about that. Yeah. Because. And the new one is women control access to sex and relationships. Yeah. And then there's a degree to which that is true. But there's a degree to where to which it's it's not entirely true. That's true. That's true. We have a lot of people who are not allowed to control access to sex and whether or not the woman is willing to be in a relationship. But. Men can choose to not be in a relationship after having sex with a woman who thinks that by having sex she is entering into a relationship. And so men do control access to a degree as well. They can think say this is not worth it. Juice not worth the squeeze. I'm walking.

8:16Oh, and on that note, a lot of florist of being shut down a lot of truth or some being shut down now. A lot of what? So like flower shops and. Oh, yeah. Are being shut down. Yeah, because then I'm spending the money that by the use to. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Not just from the relationship end of it, but because there's. There's a lot less. There's a lot less frivolous spending on stuff like that in general. But when we look at this, my point in looking at this is there's an attitude toward. Male sexual interest. There's an attitude toward male loneliness. And it is. If women are lonely, if women have a sexual interest, it's treated like it's something sacred and special. And you know, it's mean and. Abusive to deny her.

9:16And it's it's mean and abusive to shame her for it. Even if you're not interested. And you know, if you turn her down, you have to be gentle about it. And you're just long litany of things of coddling women's emotions with regard to sex and relationships. But when a man has those same emotions. And he's on the other side of the fence when it from when it comes to controlling that access. He's the one. You know, seeking instead of the one being asked. Suddenly he gets treated like those same emotions are completely illegitimate. And they make him a bad person. And there's something spooky and creepy about it. You know, Hollywood monster trying to get into your house and kill you. And. It does drive me into suicide. And we've talked a little bit about the mental health angle with regard to suicide assisted suicide.

10:22What kind of safeguards. Would be needed to deal with this situation existing. And giving people committed a permission to use the medical system to commit suicide. So I think this is a pretty big monkey wrench to throw into the whole thing. This in my opinion is a circumstance in which a person's friends and family should step in and be supportive of his will to live and efforts to to recover from being mistreated. But let's let's look at the other things that we're going to talk about first. I just wanted to say all of this is despite men's. Preclivity to solitude that's not quite comparable to women's. There are a lot there are a lot of men. Who have no problem with being alone. They in fact, they can go off into the woods and a log cabin log cabin and just live alone.

11:30Because being alone is not the same as loneliness loneliness is is being disturbed by being lonely. By being alone being distressed over by being alone. It's not like being company. Well, unlike his relationships. This is not that it doesn't affect men, but women have a much lower pain threshold when it comes to those sorts of things. Because as we discussed on the Tuesday show or as I ran to it about on the Tuesday show. Women are much more collectivist than men. The genes, folks. Because I, again, I shouldn't have to explain it. Men go off and explore endeavors that they've simply thought of.

12:32Whereas women don't hunt. They gather. They create a garden of children. Kindergarten, if you will. And so of course women need to be more collectivist than men. And so this male loneliness epidemic isn't what it's being made out as. It's not that men aren't alone. Men very much are alone because they're surrounded by women who hate them. The average man, I mean, is surrounded by women who hate them and wouldn't even dream of starting a family with them. And so men have gone, all right, I'll see what I can do on my own. And men can deal with that. It's not loneliness epidemic.

13:34It's an increasingly mass proclivity of men to just live alone because they fucking enjoy it. We would like to have a lifelong relationship with a woman who loves us and respects us and all that. But it's becoming increasingly difficult to find such a woman because such women find a man very early on in life. They have no difficulty finding a man who just wants a woman to be nice and supportive. So the good women get married off to very lucky men, quite early in life. And the rest of them are just left with these, these holes who think that murdering their children is okay. And that's, that's about where we are. So if anything, there isn't an epidemic of male loneliness.

14:35There's an epidemic of female loneliness because women feel lonely. Just because they're not getting a consensus of opinion from enough other women. Women feel lonely if they're not. Getting supported by every woman in their local community. They also feel lonely, but there's very different thresholds. What can only reiterate what I've already said. Men are feeling lonely, but they deal with it better than women do. Women go crazy when they feel lonely. When men feel lonely, they're like, right.

15:35They don't say that there's another epidemic. There's, there's not an epidemic of male loneliness. There's an epidemic of female bichiness. And I know Mike, you're very nice to women when it comes to this. And I think the, the post, you get into it. You are for especially for a mictite. I am a man. God. You should be. But when it comes right down to it, like the way that women treat men for the crime of being interested when the same woman will fuck around like a $3 or. For the right amount of money, you know, meaning that he threw down this much on dinner and this much on dancing or a movie or whatever people do on dates when they're not being creative. And, and then, you know, turn around and go on to the next guy or put their profile up on on social media for a dateers.

16:40Just to get dinner dates so they don't have to pay for food. Like this, this is something that. You know, I see the female side of it. I think it's very skeptical. I think it's very skeptical. I can't understand why women think that they're going to be able to just do that and nobody will notice. But in the meantime, I am. I guess my reaction to it is that, you know, men aren't lonely because just because women are rejecting them. And being sad, hurt and lonely when. When women are cruel into process of rejecting them. Or when women turn around and friend zone them for five or six years until they're ready to settle down and hence the meme.

17:42So there you go. If you know, you know. And, but all of that will get into more of that discussion. Like that's going to be at least. Probably a two show discussion too. When we read that post and discuss this issue, I'm sure it's going to be longer than just. You know, as discussing it at the beginning of this, this show here. And then we will start reading shadow clause post. And that may. It's an article length post. It is an excellent. Take down of the situation. I think it's going to be a good idea to talk about that. I think it's going to be a good idea to talk about that. And then we will start reading shadow clause post. It is an excellent. Take down of the situation between men and women.

18:42He wrote a second post. So I might compare a little bit between what he said the first one. He said the second. But I also want to look at the comments because there were some people that really. Like I said. They, they really went in the wrong direction. In terms of what they responded to versus what he said and what he meant. And I think what he meant wasn't that difficult to ascertain. But. Yeah, maybe need some common sense in order to get to that point. So back to the article. Oops. I'm not trying to open another tab. Thank you. Brave. Um. We have. We're talking. Yes, we can hear you now. You're out of room. I was going to say that. Uh, I was going to say, I did that the 304 mean. I know I'm terrible. I mean, I just happened to run across that. Jar of of mayonnaise in the grocery store on the the shelf of things that are, you know.

19:48Highly discounted because either they're close to their date for too close their date for the store to keep them on their regular shelf, which is what happened with that mayonnaise or. They're just not going to sell that product anymore. So it's everything on that shelf is usually half off or more. And it just happened to be 304. And it looked nasty. And I was like, I can't, I can't leave that alone. I almost bought it just bring it home and take pictures of it. And then I thought, oh, no, no, it has to still be on the shelf. It has to still be on the shelf. So I took the picture and made the meme. But that was perfect. Yeah. Every so often, you know, every so often the Lord provides the perfect moment. That's so awful. But to completely dark into subject here. Since we were sort of half into the dark.

20:49We're stepping completely back into the dark now. And see the guy that we are talking about is the second fellow mentioned or the third fellow mentioned in the article. And so Lewis, this is his family. This is the young man, I believe that. Yep. Yeah, the 17 year old that. Couldn't explain to the doctor what was wrong with him. What was going on? What his symptoms were. Because he was. I think scared of a needle. And. So before I go on to this part, I have to tell you, I have people close to me that have this phobia. And you don't have to have an intellectual disability to lose the ability to be a articulate and explain yourself to a doctor in a circumstance like this.

21:56I know. A guy my age who has. He's incredibly tough in every other instance. And he's incredibly reasonably reasonable, sensible guy. But if you show him a hypodermic needle, he will pass out. It isn't something that he is, is a whimper for it's. You know, this is an actual like uncanny valley type instinctive response. And. And I think it's a response than women. And I think it's partly because. Men just are not accustomed to being as vulnerable as you are. To someone else when you allow them to stick something sharp into your skin. You know, and it just unnerved some people. Some people it's a lot more difficult than just being unnerved.

22:59It's not even about pain. It's not. A conscious thing. And it's just. Phobia is a weird. And it's just it's just got to be a hundred times worse when you have trouble communicating already. You know, it's something that like. I would expect. If somebody already had difficulty communicating. They were confronted with a phobia. They would not be able to communicate in that moment. Because it does make it difficult to articulate it makes it difficult to think. And like I said, I have seen this cause somebody who otherwise you would never expect them to have a fear of anything. This is somebody who you know, like if his. Somebody he loved or something that he valued highly was in danger.

24:00You you'd expect him to face down a lion. But come near him with a hypodermic needle and he will pass that he doesn't have control over it. It's not a matter of him being upset. It just does that to him. So. The official reverse traditionalism channel. Give us two. $5 superchallenge that I missed here. Oh, that's because one of them was at two o'clock in the afternoon. So this is a Latino question for Brian. Are you more offended by the feminists who push the Latinx stuff or by the feminists who call themselves an arc of feminists instead of an arc. I'm not sure Brian's listening. So I have to ask him. I don't know. Brian, if you are listening, interrupt me. Cause if I just stop talking, there's going to be dead air because they can't hear Brian. They can't hear you.

25:01That all sounds really stupid to me though. Yeah, but. I'm only a little person here and I turn my volume on. Probably an arc because they don't know what anarchy is and that's a little bit of fence, but I'm generally not offended by stupidity. Just disappointed. And they can hear you. Okay. Alright, so then I have to repeat what everything Brian just said. Then the next one is for doc five dollars for the super chow and the question is a mental health question for doc when Gavin McGinnis told men you're supposed to be building a table or something wasn't that accidentally very compatible with Tom Goldens model of how men often heal through work. They're asking you of course. You're going to have to give them a minute. Yeah.

26:03It's a neat, neat question. And you know that it's funny. We talked about that with Tom golden on the show. I want to say back when we were on blog talk. We talked about. Men's Sheds and how important men's Sheds are to therapy for men where rather than going and sitting and talking to some 20 something chick that just got out of. And they're going to have a lot of knowledge with a some sort of major that that touches psychology. They get to actually stay and shoulder to shoulder with guys that might have experience in the area that they are now dealing with and struggling with. And I think it makes a big difference for a lot of guys.

27:05Do you think there are some kinds of families that we've had through trauma the way that they have. You know, helped each other. And and family members have helped them through trauma and that they've helped themselves through trauma is to work on a project. And. You know, talk each other through the. The situation sort of around the project. It's not always direct. You know, I've noticed a lot of times, guys, when they're talking around a project like that, they don't necessarily say, when your wife is cheating on you, here's how to handle it. You know, they'll relate the statement to something to do with the project. And maybe they'll have some direct things they say, but a lot of times the epiphanies are not covert, just connected with the physical labor.

28:12And it was it's kind of an interesting difference. Women have this weird way of, they have to poke at the source spot. And they have to have someone else understand what the source spot is and how the pain feels. But if you start addressing the causes and the potential solutions, and even if you're talking in metaphors, like that, they get very upset, because you didn't spend enough time acknowledging the source spot they were poking at, and how sore it is. So when I went into therapy, and I had my first therapist was female, and she expected me to do that. And I expected solutions. I wanted to get better and go back to doing the things I was doing before. I started, you know, I haven't the butt of my brain dragging

29:18on the ground behind me. I wanted to be up and working. And she didn't know what to do with me. So she sent me to a Korean doctor, and he helped. Honestly, that is literally what happened. She couldn't, she couldn't handle an American woman who acted, didn't act like an American woman. And so she sent me to a Korean because he would understand and a Korean male, by the way, because he would understand. Is Mike back yet? Yeah, he should be back over there. Yes, right. Okay. I'm you're good. You're good. I'm supposed to tell you the question. Okay. Well, did you hear the question actually before I go reading it? I had some thing about Gavin Newsom. No, no, no, no, not Gavin Newsom. Very much not Gavin Newsom. So mental health question for doc from official reverse traditionalism channel. When Gavin

30:18McGinnis told men you're supposed to be building a table or something. Wasn't that accidentally very compatible with Tom Goldens model of how men heal through work? Well, men are supposed to is in almost all cases, a case of the sposed as the Simpson's reference. Men can do anything they like to support their families or even anything they like just to support themselves. I mean, is there one is an avenue to another? Yes, a carpenter is something that men traditionally do. Name me something that men don't traditionally do. Raising children? No, yeah, I think men should raise children. What have we been talking about for the last three weeks?

31:21Yeah, no, men can if men want to build tables by all means, build tables. But men can do anything. Literally anything except just eight children. They can look after them just as well as women do if not considerably less likely to murder them. So, who were you to tell anyone what a man is? I will repeat what I said to someone a long time ago. What the amount of shit I give about what you say a man is, is an amount that made Max Planck shit himself for three days and rethink his life. Max Planck is a man who discovered the tiniest possible particles. That's how that job works. So, yeah, no, men can do anything.

32:25So, don't be telling me what a man is. The man is actually anything except a human who can just date another human. Except a woman. But in any case, sometimes, sometimes when people try to make those statements, they get on to something that they didn't actually mean to say. Tom Golden has explained the male rejection of the feminine talk therapy model for dealing with trauma pretty well. It's not always men, like I said, I rejected that model too. I don't know. I'll talk about that stuff if there's a reason to talk about it. There's something to be gleaned from it, right? That can help. But I don't, the thing of sitting in talking to a therapist, like, I have this problem and it makes me sad. And here's how long it's been going on. And this is how much it hurts and blah, blah. I can't do that. Like, I can't even, I wouldn't even want to

33:32do that if my husband wouldn't be bothered by it. Like, he would, he would, you know, if I have a problem and I talked to about it, if I wouldn't listen to solutions and, you know, which one I usually going for when I ask him about a problem is like, I've tried everything. Can you give me some ideas? But you just had what? You just had what? I did a three up. I did a post about that. I like a while. I just did a post about that. About not not having a desire to talk about the problems. Yeah. So if a woman wants a solution to her battle, say you don't want a solution, look, a spend don't ask the capacity to keep that information. Well, sometimes he does. A lot of times he does. My husband's better with people than I am in general. So sometimes, and sometimes, like, sometimes I'm really dumb about how to deal with people, especially other women.

34:37And I will think that some other woman and I have had a perfectly normal interaction when actually, we just had a major battle in feminine war, you know, 6,428 in our workplace. And I didn't even know we had a fight. That's so then when there's fallout later on, I go to him and I'm like, what do I do? And he usually is able to give me enough insight that I can fix whatever problem was caused by my not understanding the situation. And you know, all that time that I always just thought, yeah, I'm socially awkward and I've given up on it. I'm completely giving up on it. I even wrote a post about that on the Honey Badger Brigade blog, not kidding. The whole article is supported like the scaffolding underneath the other things I'm saying in the article

35:40is my explanation of my social awkwardness. Like I grew up as a nerd. And when it wasn't cool to be a nerd. And I was fortunate. I grew up with a lot of really nice kids that didn't beat me up for being a nerd. But yeah, it's sometimes you do need advice from a dude like how to deal with other people. If you're like me, you do. So yeah, I think a lot of women might be, you know, more predictable based on what you were saying Richard, but I'm aware too. So I'm not. You posted the what? I posted the tweet and the discord message. Okay. Okay, dokey. We'll look here.

36:45What help if I was in the right discord chat. I'm always in the wrong discord chat too. The tweet is about oh, I see I was reading the wrong one. No to women, men don't have all don't have the emotional storage solicit to a full diet drive about your daily problems. You know what's really cool when you're married is that you can sit together in the living room doing things like your three feet apart, maybe sitting in chairs or on a couch, cuddling. And you don't say a word for like two or three hours at a time. Just enjoy each other's company. Maybe watch something on on the boob tube together. Sometimes boobs. And you know, if not like doing doing parallel activities like kids doing parallel play. When you're not doing other things obviously. But

37:50I don't know maybe some marriages aren't like that. For the long this time, men and women didn't even know how to talk. Did you all know this? Males and females of let me say now every species other. Well, the just fine without having to yak bullshit. No languages or no speech languages anyway. Body language has always existed. Well, yeah, exactly. Body language. Like the sense of touch, the mechanical senses came before anything else. Most of our senses are mechanical. There's not just five. There's loads that's like hunger, thirst, like balance, proprioception, haptic thing. Communicating through words is one of the very latest inventions that we have access to. And they are inventions. We have many ways of communicating with

38:57each other that we're not even inventions. They are evolutionary instincts. Yeah. But when those kind of got replaced by language, we ended up with a problem. And what official reverse traditionalism channel brought up. And what we've been talking about is related to the story in a way. Reverse tread actually asked a question and then in the chat that I think is relevant to. But do women actually quote need this kind of quote girl talking therapy either? Hannah seems to be saying no. And the answer is a really well kept secret apparently. So you know when you are in a place where there's a crowd of people. And there's an object, you know, that's maybe out of place. And something needs to

40:00be done about it. But nobody wants to take responsibility for it. Very similar. The same situation that Douglas Adams describes in the somebody else's problem force field description where people will suddenly not be able to see it. It's very important to not notice the thing because if you notice the thing, it becomes your responsibility. You don't want to be responsible for the thing. So it doesn't exist anymore. And as a result, soon as you put up a somebody else's problem field around something, it's hidden pretty well. And I've noticed those in every workplace. Women are that way with regard to causes and solutions of their problems that involve them having to take responsibility as well. And so they will talk endlessly about their suffering because that is the thing that's bothering them. And they want sympathy for their suffering. And they want you to do things for them. And they

41:05want the illusion. They want to have the illusion, right? That you and they have worked on the problem. And now they are doing their part to solve the problem. But they don't want to do the actual labor, mental labor of addressing and solving the problem. So for instance, I'm fat. I'm not as fat as I was six months ago, but I'm still fat. I don't like it. And I don't want to be fat. It sucks. It makes my hips hurt. It makes my knees hurt. It makes my cheeks look funny. I don't like it. Right. Which I can say because I'm autistic and it doesn't hurt my feelings to say any of that shit. Right. It doesn't hurt my feelings as somebody else says it because I don't care. It's true. Therefore, it's not a problem for me. But I don't like being fat. So when I went to the doctor and I talked to her about it, besides shocking the shit out of her by not crying about it and being like, this never happened to me before. Well, I said, I don't want a miracle drug. I want your advice on

42:16knowing the facts about my medical history. I can't figure out there are a few different diets and a few different exercise styles that look good. What's your advice? And so she didn't have to gear me up to do that part of the work. And it was probably the easiest, I'm too fat. What do I do about it? Dr. Visit, she had to deal with ever. And that was that. But most women, instead, are going to talk about how unattractive they feel. How it hurts their feelings when other people treat them like they're unattractive because they're fat. And how mean people are and what's wrong with them for treating her bad because she's fat. Right. Well, people do those things. It's pretty well-known that it is more attractive to look healthy than it is to look unhealthy and so on.

43:17So again, like if someone were to look at me and say, God, I wouldn't touch you with a 10-foot puller, you're a fat old lady. And we're like, okay, that's fair. You know, I would hope not anyway, because I'm a married fat old lady. But in any case, I think a lot of women would have to speak at length about how they felt about the situation. But that doesn't fix the situation. And so it works as a great time-waster. It's like calibrating your sock drawer. You have accomplished nothing when you get done. But you've spent a lot of time on it. And it looks like you worked really hard. And somebody somewhere will be proud of you for it. But you didn't really have to put in a lot of effort. You could just sit there and think about other things while you were doing it. As opposed to

44:19not eating throughout the day, except for a short period of time like fasting or cutting your calories when your body is accustomed to receiving about twice as many as you need or cutting sugar, which is as addictive as heroin or going to the gym and exercising to lose weight when you have joint pain because of the weight. And you're going to have to work through the joint pain because you know your joints are screaming because you're heavy. And if you don't fix that, they're just going to keep hurting. Like those things take work. So when no women do not need talk therapy. They want talk therapy because talk therapy, they don't feel like they're doing the work. And unless they get really astute good therapist that makes them go back and poke at the

45:23real source spots, which is admitting I got lazy about my diet, admitting I got lazy about exercise, admitting this is my fault, but I have a pathway to fix it. It's going to take hard work and only I can do it. And then taking the steps to fix it, like that that's different. But just talk therapy. Now women do not need that. It is poison. And it's also probably one of the biggest industries in the country right now because at least a third of women own up to being mentally ill on some level or another. And I think it's something like 23% of women are actually in treatment for it. So that's fun to talk about. But on the communication end of it, when you get used to only communicating by talking and maybe facial expressions and stuff.

46:29But you also get used to just completely ignoring the experiences and expressions of men. You in a situation where if a man cannot tell you what's going on with him and you don't care about his body language, there's no pathway for it to be communicated from him to you. I need X. X is happening to me. X is not happening to me. Can we fix problem Y and things like that. So this young man couldn't explain the symptoms he was having. Couldn't get the testing he needed. And couldn't get the help he needed because health care is dominated by women. And more likely than not in the room where he was having this problem, most of the people that that had that communication wall where his communication couldn't get through because it was all

47:35nonverbal in the moment. And they weren't willing to receive nonverbal communication in the moment. And try to understand what was going on instead of being dismissive. And he lost his life as a result. And the system doesn't even punish that or try to remedy it. And it's frequent with men. So here it says after hours of evidence and testimony, the coroner is unable to determine Lewis's medical cause of death and it is recorded as unanswered. Tained, the coroner did not find that any neglect by health care professionals contributed to Lewis's death. Which from the story, it's pretty obvious that yes it did. It's just that the coroner's not going to see that. Outside the court, Jackie and Ian are in shock. Despite the coroner's findings, they have always believed

48:41that more could have been done to save Lewis's life. They are saying they've done everything they could for Lewis. Could have done for Lewis. We don't believe that's true. He tells us he had a disability. He had Down syndrome. He was a frightened kid. He says they could have done something and they refused to. Jackie looks shell shocked. None of it makes any sense, she says. I'm not going to be able to process this ever. I'm just completely devastated and shocked. There is no doubt that Jackie and and and Jackie and Ian's minds that Louis Lewis died simply because he had Down syndrome. If he had been a 17 year old boy who articulated that he did not feel well, he would not have been sent home from the hospital. Louis was allowed to die due to his disability. I don't know if I've talked a lot recently about it, but when it happened, that was a contributing factor in my dad's death. He had in 2012, he had a heart attack. He needed a quintuple bypass.

49:47They were only able to do a quadruple bypass because one of his blood vessels was so badly damaged that they couldn't do anything. He ended up, his heart was at 25% function after that. When your heart is functioning at such a low rate, your oxygen doesn't get distributed very well in your body. Your legs are getting enough oxygen to stay alive, but not enough to power your muscles. You need that oxygen in order to power your muscles well enough to lift your body weight. And it meant he had to walk with a walker. It meant that he had to use his arm strength to get from a sitting position into half standing position before his leg strength would kick in. And it was like that before he injured his feet. He had a physical therapy after he

50:48injured his feet. And the physical therapists were these petite, skinny little 20-something ladies. And they wanted him to just use his legs to stand up. And he explained the situation to them. And it went in one ear and out the other. They did not accept what he said as information. Like literally they treated it like he had just spoken gibberish for a while. And then they went on and talked to him as if he hadn't communicated anything to them. Well, this is the way we're going to do this. This is what you need to do. So we're going to try again. Don't push with your arms. Just use your legs. And every time and every way he tried to explain, my leg muscles don't get enough oxygen. I have to use both my arms and my legs. I need to work the strength up in my arms.

51:49They just ignored him and continued arguing, do this and pushing and getting more frustrated with him because his body wouldn't cooperate. And they started writing it down in their notes for him. As a refusal, he is refusing to stand. He is refusing to participate in the therapy. We wasn't refusing anything. He was trying to get them to understand how to make it possible for him to do the therapy. And they eventually when they decided to close his therapy case, his physical therapy case, that meant that he was done recovering in the nursing home from the hospital and had to come back to the house. Probably about two months before he would have come home and before he should have come home. And that, I believe, contributed. There were other things.

52:53The nursing home used to be the Hoi Di-Toi Di nursing home in the area. And it was, when I was there, it was definitely not. I cleaned the floor in his room. When the family members come in and start cleaning, you're not doing things right. And they were having him put his feet on the floor barefoot after losing all his skin on the bottom of his feet and starting to grow it back. Without having that floor be cleaned. So they really weren't paying attention to what was necessary. But in the end, he just, the combination of women in health care not caring enough to want two-way communication back and forth between themselves and the patient, where the patient's communication is something they have to listen to and consider and respond to, rather than wait

54:00for it to be over and then plow forward with what they were thinking of before the patient started talking. I don't know that he would have passed away. His whole situation would be different if they had responded better. And I think it's similar with a lot of disabled people. Dad was just elderly and he had some episodes of hospital induced dementia, but he wasn't normally suffering from any type of dementia or anything. Normally, he was so articulate. He actually taught history lessons to some of the more interested STNAs that came in and had to be in the room for a while long enough that you would have a normal conversation. And he'd be watching something, some sort of historical documentary. And they'd say something about it, ask a question, say, oh, I didn't know that. And then the rest of the conversation, they got a whole lot of

55:03historical information. And he was very articulate. So this was just when they didn't listen and understand what he was saying, it wasn't because he wasn't explaining himself. They just didn't care. When you combine that with somebody who has difficulty explaining himself or can't explain himself, it's deadly. It's instantly deadly, not three weeks later deadly or five weeks later deadly. Richard Beer brought up baby Alfie. Yeah, NHS wouldn't release this baby had a condition that was treatable with an experimental treatment in Italy, was in the UK. There was what Richard mentioned, the Pope gave him Vatican citizenship did not, and not even that could persuade NHS to allow him to travel. They held him prisoner until he died

56:07against the will of his parents. They held him prisoner until he died. They denied them the right to try, the right to take him to another country for an attempt at fixing the problem that he had. And that's managed medicine right there in a nutshell. And that's what I'm afraid of with regard to this. So you have this guy, he was allowed to die due to his disability. Health Secretary West Streeting told ITV News, it is really shocking the unequal outcomes we see for learning disabled people, not just unequal access to care, but shockingly lower life expectancy, the health secretary said. So why we have committed to publish every single year of the data, I think we read this part actually, because we talked about the Oliver McGowan Mandatory Training. So when we talk about this, the thing that I am the most deeply concerned about

57:15here is you already, right now without assisted suicide being on a table, you have a circumstance where if somebody has a disability that makes it more difficult for them to communicate, makes it more difficult for them to advocate for themselves. If they're elderly, if they're IQ is low, if they have a speech impediment, if they have a phobia that makes things difficult with regard to communication, anything like that. They're already getting a lower standard of care and it is already killing some of them. What happens when physicians or nurses or physical therapists can, because they're fed up with somebody that's difficult to take care of, who maybe doesn't fully understand what they're doing, or maybe they don't fully understand what the patient needs and they are frustrated that the patient doesn't seem to be cooperating

58:17with their expectations. What happens when those people can then suggest, well maybe you would just be better off committing suicide? Like to me, that's a terrifying prospect. To me, that's hundreds of dead people, maybe thousands of dead people, not because they were going to suffer a painful death and it spares them that if maybe they die a few months earlier in a more peaceful manner, but because somebody's just fed up with them, somebody's done dealing with them. And this isn't uncommon. Early deaths, people with learning disabilities, shocking, BBC news, then we have terminally ill men who relies on oxygen is told by DWP. What's the DWP guys? Anybody know? DWP? The Department of Work and Pensions.

59:24So it's like the Department of Health and Human Services here in the US, it would be a welfare department basically. It's very difficult to explain to an American audience. We have a lot of news headlines against people who are on disability. They're trying to cut it by 25 billion. They file headlines saying that this person's faith that disability went forward on disability effects here, a point zero on percent. What? And it's very difficult to get on disability in the UK as well. It sounds like it. But the press always say it's very easy and it gets the public in a frenzy. So it attacks on disability. I've been rising lately. Yeah, so the public's been up in arms trying to get laws made more strict with regard to who can

1:00:25receive assistance and how much for how long and stuff, right? Not really. They just attempt to save the people when they're making, because they think that they're even faking, or they get more than they should get. It's even worse. Look, it's the British public that really like to save the people as much as they claim to do. They're taking out their frustration and they want to save the people. Also on the family people and themselves, which is very, which you can't tell that I'm disabled because I've been sent out. Yeah. I did. I've taken it. Or yeah. The term in the US for like situations like yours is invisible disabilities. For instance, there are chronic pain disorders like rheumatoid arthritis that can affect the joints in ways that can cause somebody to be unable to walk a long distance, but they can walk

1:01:27from their car to the grocery store. As long as there's a car there for them like to ride on once they get in there. They can be affected worse in cold weather because it causes the pain to be worse when you get cold and your body tenses up from being cold, then when you're warmer and you're more relaxed. It's even more difficult in the wintertime. There are people I've known who have had handicap placards that they only use when it's very low temperature, but the rest of the year they're okay. People look at them and think that they're cheating the system and they got a handicap placard for just using in the cold because they want to be spoiled. Not because they physically can't move as well in the cold. My friend had one and every time you

1:02:31would get challenged in the park and he pulled up his top because he had six and five versus he had a feet bent, so he had to throw the feet and she bent also this belly button. Yeah, that would definitely shut people up so they don't know what it is. Yeah, I do have a disability look. I was cyborg. Also in the UK a lot of comedians start to bash disabled people now on their set, in their sets. It's a good thing to do and underneath like a GP news, I started to bash disabled people with full-man restore, start to bash disabled people so they've been from in the bus to bash disabled people now. It's like engaging with far-being, but for bad comedians and journalists and stuff. That's why I don't feel, and I should vote, but this point is really fine.

1:03:32It's hard to choose between a large group of people that all hate you. Yeah, this is great. Yeah, I know how you feel. I used to think one party was great and the other party was trash, and actually both parties are trash here in the US. Both of the major parties are trash, and minor parties aren't really any better. It's a problem to notice that it's a passion to save up people now. See, that's not good, but I think there's also a lot of people who really don't understand the situation. When it comes down to it, you have, most people would rather have more out of financially out of life than they would be able to get from disability, and so they wouldn't settle for disability even if they could get it. But there are a few people who will

1:04:37cheat the system if they can, and they'll even work harder to do that than they would if they just got a job. Most people on disability aren't like that. The maximum on pit is 700 months. That's the maximum you get. It's like £1,000 a week. And see, I have no idea how to translate that into dollars right now. I know if I looked it up, I would get the information, but I do know that it's even if it was double, if one pound was worth two dollars or more, it would still be lower than income level that most people I know need in order to keep up their lifestyle. And here in the US, like I said, it's, again, the amount that you would get from disability

1:05:41is less than the amount you would get from work. Most of the time when people say that, now it doesn't mean that there are no people. Same thing with welfare. The amount you would get from welfare is much less than the amount that you would get from work significantly less. And they make you work anyway, which is what this guy was told to would hit. Now work appointments with what are those? Are those like, you have to do a certain number of hours? You have to do a certain amount of club search. If they find you a placement, you have to go on that placement or they'd will take you up on somebody. Okay, so it's like unemployment here in the US. Yeah. And well, you know, the the nice thing about applying for unemployment, like even if you're not going to try to get unemployment in the United States, if something happens with your job, you should apply for it because employers get a benefit for hiring you if you are, if you've applied for unemployment. And they're more likely to take you, they're more likely to hire you.

1:06:45In this case, they're planning to tackle you for the employment by bringing back slavery. So they're going to take a lot of like 10,000 people and pay some in a job to the civil market for free. And then, I mean, that's how it's up. They just pay some for another batch of people. So in other words, these these young people that are unemployed, they're going to make them work, but they're not going to pay them. What happens if you don't go to work? Do you get fired? To take it by the way. Oh, so they are there are made there. Okay, I see how that is. So it's similar to it. So the welfare to work program in the US is sort of similar in that they're not doing like a certain number of people. And then another certain number of people. But if you receive certain types of welfare payments, welfare benefits, and I think food stamps are included in that. If you're not already working, if you don't already have a job, then you do have to do a certain

1:07:46number of hours a month of what they refer to as volunteer work. But again, they will take away your benefits if you don't do it. So it's technically not volunteer. But it's not slavery either because you are getting paid. You get benefits. But they don't usually, if you have, if you're on disability, my understanding is if you're on disability, they don't do that because you're on disability because you can't work. Basically, yeah, you get taxed on it as well. But I will say, you know, they do put signs up and they have to explain it verbally also because I've seen it and I've heard it in the Health and Human Services Department offices when they explain about the welfare to work program where you have to apply for jobs and you also have

1:08:48to do the community service hours that the amount that you're getting per hour for your community service per hour is much lower than what you would get for working a minimum wage job. But the work is just as hard. And it's interesting that there's a lot of churches involved. And I noticed a lot of the people in the welfare offices were not the church going type or at least not the Christian church going type. A lot of people had, you know, keep your rosaries out of my ovaries and a few other types of slogans on their chests when I was in there ran into several fellow pagans at the time. And who probably wouldn't talk to me now because I'm on the other side. There's no side there,

1:09:52but it doesn't matter in any case. So this is a guy who was ordered by the British welfare department. He's on, he's terminal ill. He's on end of life care. So in the US, that would be hospice care probably. And Britain, I don't know if there's more privately funded stuff, but I know hospice is there, right? Yes. So the other chance will pay for the hospice care. If you want to buy a private, you can offer it. Yeah. So you can do either hospice or private or, you know, whatever. But generally speaking, when somebody is at that point, they are disabled. Even if they weren't disabled throughout the rest of their illness, they are now disabled, right? Oh, they want him to apply for a job and report to work while he's dying. Oh, sorry. The people that says you

1:10:55for them, they're not, they're not professionally trained nurses or doctors. They just run the people that found out the street. I'm a layman. I'm, you know, when it comes to that, like I'm not, I'm, I'm a direct support professional for intellectually disabled adults, but I can tell that if somebody is on their deathbed, they're not going to get up to go work a shift at Wendy's. Like that's not going to happen. My days of government are going to be one thing. They what? You know, Wendy's in the UK. A lot of gosh. You poor things. I don't have to fly because of the LGBT people. I'm forgiven them for that. That's geez. Wendy's is better than you have. We got a couple of Wendy's in East London. And I'm talking here. Wendy's up most. But you got McDonald's all over the place, right? Yeah, I'm on the city where the first McDonald's in England was built. So back in 177.

1:12:01Oh, there we go. Oh, Mr. Nubes just gave us $5 and said in microbiology class, I remember all the nursing students gathered around before lecturing, copied each other's homework like 20 of them. Oh my God, that's so bad. And see, I had trouble in anatomy and physiology because I went in to take my final exam with a corneal ulcer that was making it hard to see and giving me a migraine due to the unevenness of my vision. But they copied each other's homework and they got nursing degrees and take care of people or rather are expected to take care of people. Should I be worried because I think that you'd say in England as well? You think what? I think they did the same in England as well, they copied each other's papers. But when are nursing school and stuff like that? I'm still not understanding it. You might have to

1:13:02sit down and say sorry. When they're in nursing schools, I think they do the same. They do the same? Yeah. Everybody should be worried. Oh my gosh. So there are courses that are really hard in medicine, of course. Anatomy and physiology is kind of like learning a map of the whole world, where you start by learning all the different countries and the different oceans and then you get down to learning all the different states and provinces and whatever else you call the divisions, districts, whatever that are as big as a state. And then all the different counties and similarly sized divisions and then all the different cities and similarly, similarly sized divisions and then the main streets of all of those cities. And then you get called to race because you're allowed to differentiate between these areas

1:14:06because only a racist would do such a thing. And also, you also have to know the difference between Versailles and Versailles. One of them is not in France. Lima and Lima. Yep, Lima and Lima and Cairo and Cairo. Cairo is my visit to Ohio. Yes. Oh, H. I. Did you know that in Ohio, you can drive from Sydney to Houston and be on the say, still be on the same highway. You can actually drive through London without taking a detour out of Ohio. London. We should. We should take you to London how you run around and talk. You've been through London. It was awful, wasn't it?

1:15:07I'm I mean London, Ohio. I mean London Britain. Yes, I know. But yeah. In any case, yeah. So it's really detailed. Like you definitely have to be able to handle doing your own goddamn homework. If you want to understand anatomy and physiology, memorize the names of all the things that you're going to be talking about when you're helping a patient or helping a doctor help a patient, you have to know these things. And you also have to understand how they work. It can't just be something where you kind of sort of got it and you squeaked on by. There's a lot of stuff you have to. Like even a person with my little bit of education, I get a med class that takes about four hours. Once a year where we go over the material again and I get tested again to make sure that I am using the correct procedure.

1:16:13To make sure that I am giving the correct patients, the correct medications, and doing them correctly. So, you know, if somebody's meds need to be crushed and given to them in a substance like putting or jello or not jello, but applesauce or, you know, something along those lines that I haven't just handed them the pills and had, you know, some people, you can give them a little cup with their pills and they will take the pills and some people you have to make sure the pills get into the mouth or they don't go down the throat. And some people, like I said, has to be in a substance. You have to take the class every year and have a nurse watch you go through the process and describe to the nurse each step what you're going to be doing. They want to know that you're washing your hands first, right? That's for a position that the initial education for this position when I trained first trained to work with the company.

1:17:15State state training, like the minimum, I think, is two weeks and I got three weeks. It's the state tested nurses aid gets two weeks and just the continuing education we go over first aid every year too. And nurses get 18 months for the most basic type of nursing or four years and some of them take five to become a to get a BA, a bad ass in nursing is opposed to I think what is it when you get the two year degree, damn it. Is that the BS degree, the bullshit degree been a while. I started going down that path and then stopped going down that path. So, but in any case, like, you should be able to do your own goddamn homework.

1:18:16You should be able to answer the questions yourself, write your essay yourself, all of that stuff you should not need another student's work to help you through the class. And if you are there one of the first courses totally by accident that I ended up taking was called this issues in trends in nursing. It was an ethics class. There are several levels of ethics classes that you have to take if you are going to become a nurse and that's just LPN, which I was part way through that when they discontinued it for a while. Like you couldn't be an LPN. If you already were an LPN, you could stay, but they weren't the degree was being discontinued. There was not going to be an LPN degree and they brought it back a few years later after it was too late for me to license practical nurse LPN was too late for me to go back and continue because I was dealing with, you know, the little bit of debt that I had from it.

1:19:22I didn't really have big amounts of college lens from that just a little bit, but I also didn't have a job. So if that's what this guy is having to deal with making the decisions regarding his health and what he should be doing, it is no wonder that they are so stupid that they told him and to get up off his deathbed and go to work at whatever place they send him to. That's insane. This guy relies on oxygen. He's told to he's chronic obstruction, obstructive pulmonary disease, disease, COPD. And so he is essentially suffocating slowly. It gets worse over time. It does not matter that long anyway. No, like if they take his benefits away, he'll probably pass before it kicks in. But it's still a horrible thing. Like what the hell? Why would they do that?

1:20:32Pretty stupid. The cost by then cost. Yeah, I think that was the last one, but the way that people are responding to this, like I'm looking at it, you know, thinking this is crazy. But to be honest, this kind of thing is happening in the US as well. So when we talk about, you know, what needs to happen? Right? Because it is fair to say that if someone is in a situation where, maybe they've got something, I think it's Lou Gerrig's disease that you literally choked it at. That's how you die. That if they don't want to face that. When they get close and they know that it's inevitable and it's impending that they should be able to just quietly go to sleep instead. And some cancers just get more and more painful until you die.

1:21:36Some cancers, like when cancer gets into the brain, it just completely takes the person away anyway. Some cancers create big tumors on your face and your your body. It can be torturous to die from cancer and it is fair to give people the option that when it gets to the point where they're suffering is so great that they can't face it anymore. And they're not going to get better and there's nothing we can do that they should be able to select that. But we have to be able to protect people in this situation where the real reason is because, you know, somebody's frustrated with them and doesn't want to try to communicate with them that they will not be caught up in this and pushed to die or tricked into dying or just overrun. Because somebody didn't want to deal with them anymore.

1:22:37And that's probably my biggest fear with this type of law is that without any barriers to abuses. Sorry about the cartoon noises that's the ringtone on my phone. But without any barriers to abuses. I worry that there are healthcare professionals who would just do exactly that push it on someone against against their will or con someone who is more more credulous or gullible or can't communicate run over their their wishes and make it happen regardless. And that's before we get into the greed and horribly unethical and clearly abusive atmosphere within the human organ trade inside of the medical profession.

1:23:45I'm not even talking about like the back alley somebody stole your kidneys and left you in a bathtub full of ice kind of thing. I'm talking about, you know, abortion clinics selling baby parts and hospitals selling baby foreskins and medical institutions like jumping down, you know, people's thoughts about becoming organ donors. And if they think they might possibly be dying. And all of the news stories that have come out in the last year about institutions that have not kept someone alive that they could have kept alive because they could use their organs so they didn't save that life. They harvested the organs instead, which is essentially murder. So, yeah, I think they're definitely need to be stipulations in the law that suicide cannot be recommended in place of any therapy that could have been provided.

1:25:01It's something that the patient should always have an advocate that is not associated at all with the medical facility when those conversations are happening. And people with vulnerabilities like disabilities that affect their capabilities in communication or their cognitive abilities or anything that might make it difficult for them to have that conversation and come away certain that they got their interests respected. They should have a special advocate whose sole job is to make sure that they don't get killed. And you know that they're not being just flat out killed by the system. But instead getting all the information and making a decision themselves based on informed consent.

1:26:01And it shouldn't be something the doctor should ever be able to just suggest like the Canyon Canada. And anytime that somebody wants to have an inquiry about somebody's death, there should never be a pathway to tell them no. No, we're not going to investigate this. Investigation is requested it should always be done. And it should always involve someone from outside the facility, someone that doesn't just have the facility's interests in mind. Because without any assisted suicide law, they're too quick to kill people now. And they're too careless with people's lives now. So is anybody have anything else to add to that?

1:27:07The bills will be tried to be pushed to September. There's not going to be a protest that are going to be like a protest outside resistance. There will be a protest either will be a protest. Okay, I think I think that will be a protest. I think so. I would expect there to be a protest there should be people protesting peacefully, of course, not setting things on fire like some people when they protest. But there definitely should be like objections should be loud and obvious in the form of signs and statements, anybody with a bullhorn. And that's the kind of thing that should not just go through without anybody making it known that they object. And all of the groups that are fighting for better handling of this law, definitely need to continue pushing to update it with with stipulations that prevent.

1:28:18And there are a lot of kinds of abuses from being transferred from, you know, neglect at the hospital to now they're going to just kill people. Because even if they're going to make it inevitable that the law will pass, like I don't. I don't object to a pathway for people to not have to suffer terrible deaths. I don't object for a pathway for medical personnel to get rid of somebody because they're a difficult patient. And I do because I've worked inside of medicine in two different environments where many of the patients are difficult and many of the workers are untrained and underpaid sometimes by necessity. I do believe that that will happen if there is not some sort of fail safe in the law to prevent it. And even if there is it will still happen, it'll just be that people will have recourse.

1:29:25And if you have considered beer says imagine if you have considered made because if you have considered asked being asked if you have considered made because you requested a stair lift for your home. Hell then they've had that with pain medicine rate. Raging rat. It says the hospital close to where I live convinced us to kill my grandpa and and to not be selfish two years later it came out they were harvesting organs. So I got talked into killing my grandpa. My grandpa got talked into accepting a feeding tube for my grandma, the hospital profited from that quite a bit. Grandma died. She did not want a feeding tube. She had in her living will no feeding tube and they did it to her anyway. I know it's not quite the same. But it's it's in raging.

1:30:28And of all the people, if I were to disclose what my grandma's history was, the irony of it just would be insane. But, and then, you know, I lost both my parents during the COVID crisis and both of them were. To circumstances where the hospital didn't do things they were supposed to do and then there was nothing I could do about it and the helplessness that that you feel with that where you find out information later that if you had known at the time, but have saved the person that you lost. It's getting told a lie by a medical establishment and losing a person because of it and then coming back later and understanding that that was a lie and you you didn't protect your family member because you believed something that wasn't true.

1:31:35Because you can't it's hard to stop feeling guilty about that. Even though it was the other person that lied. And that's my grandpa had to deal with that at the end of his life. He survived my grandmother for 10 years. He was still, you know, he was never going to stop talking about that. I would have been talking about that. You know, for the rest of my life under his circumstances too, because the doctor bullied him into it. It was like, you know, you were called selfish. He was accused of starving her to death. She was already dying. He wasn't starving her to death. She was already dying. She had the same vascular condition that I have. And when your veins go, they go. When you start having strokes from it, you're on the way out.

1:32:36And there's no a feeding tube isn't going to fix that. There's no recovery that you're going to have because somebody put a feeding tube in and gave you a little bit more time to receive some some treatment or another at this point. When you hit the point where you start having strokes from this, you're gone. You're on your way out. You're leaving this world. And it's not something that they can stop. It's terminal. And so they just basically talked him into doing going against her wishes for nothing except so that the hospital could profit. And you get talked into killing a family member for nothing except so that the hospital could profit. And you need then you have to carry it. And nothing anybody says like everybody in our whole audience, all three of us.

1:33:37You know, like the all three of the founders, all of the people that are on the panel right now, everybody at Honey Badger Radio could all say to you, it's not your fault. And you would still feel guilty. You'll never let that go. It'll be something that you'll be able to work through because you understand that you are lied to and taken advantage of. But if there's always going to be that weight, it's never going to go away. I wish I could tell you differently. But I watched my grandfather with that for 10 years. And it still gets to me. I feel bad because I went out for a sandwich. And that predator bullied my grandpa and designing a paper that he had been told no on by the entire rest of the family individually one at a time, including me.

1:34:39And that was in 1996, 1995, 1996, I was in 1996. It's a long time ago. Official reverse traditionalism channel gave us $25 and said, I hope you weren't yelling at me, Doc. I just think if one of the points of McDowell is that men can focus on personal work like Newton and Tesla. If they want instead of career grinding for a woman, I think reversing is a diet, McDowell in that way too, where a stay at home dads can get shit done notably musicians and any work from home job. I think if we replaced every stay at home mom with a stay at home dad, we might actually solve the diamond Zeta question like how many people believe humans were able to come up with math and philosophy when we no longer had to hunt for food. But it would be difficult to come to that conclusion.

1:35:40Well, that's not the whole thing. There's more legal system that we have where it's always the women who deserve access to the children. Regardless of what they will teach the children or how many of those children they will just struggle to death. We don't. You have a good point and I don't know how to counteract it. Yeah. Normalizing the idea of men being parents. So to. It's way it doesn't it. To finish his point before you lunch into a long one. Mike can hear. How many people believe humans were able to come up with math and philosophy when we no longer had to hunt for food. It was mostly men who came up with that math and philosophy often when they were wealthy enough to not truly have to work. Okay, that was it. That was the whole statement.

1:36:43That's it. That's the tweet. That's the rest of it. I, you know, I can't add much to that. The idea that it's not normal for men to raise children is a quite recent idea. It's hard to even pinpoint it. I mean, even dinosaurs. Some species of dinosaur sort of had this idea that maybe men should be better off raising the children. And women should be better off. I don't even know. I just described that. I've just described a thing where.

1:37:45Reproduction can occur with or without. Women or with or without men. There are many species. In which reproduction happens without men and there are many species in which reproduction happens without women. What? How could that possibly happen? You know, you need both males and females for reproduction. Well, it depends on the species. One of them just needs to drop some genetic material into the situation. And the other just has to do the same and then fuck off. And there's also the possibility of having a species where both.

1:38:47And genders are equally involved in. The offspring that they're creating. And this. There's many avenues of many species where. There's all sorts of. Things that can happen. And it's very easy to say that no, it's women who should be raising the children. And it's men who should be wandering the earth. Well. Have we not done a great deal of experiments? And not just when it comes to primates. But when it comes to any given mammal or any given.

1:39:48Reptile. But actually. When men are when the males of the species are involved. It actually goes quite well. And then you have to wonder what's being hidden from one. What's being hidden from women and what's being hidden from men. In terms of the genetic makeup and the. Development of society. Because you know that seems to be. Women seem to be in charge of the genetics. And men seem to be in charge of the society. Pushing it one away.

1:40:49When it comes to the fondaments of it. But. And then you think about. You think about. And you think about how people in historical stories. You know, things people discussing. And their moments in history. And they talk about their upbringing. They're talking about what their father taught them. What did they learn from their father. What they learned from their father. And what they learned from their father. And what they learned from their father. And that would sound normal. Because fathers were always involved. This. The feminist myth is based on. A short time during the 20th century, after the industrial revolution.

1:41:51but the rest of the family was not also there working with him. During the early part of the Industrial Revolution, because it had been normal for families to work together as farmers or as cobblers or as farriers or any other profession. Even in the military, if a father was in the military, his sons grew up and joined the military. You learned what your father knew, you learned what your father did. Most people didn't go to school. There wasn't a school system. People had tutors and then there were universities. But if you learn to read, you learn to read at home. You didn't go sit your butt in a classroom with 30 other kids

1:42:51and a teacher in the front that would rather be somewhere else. And so kids learned from their fathers. And it wasn't until after the start of the Industrial Revolution that it even became common for people who didn't have higher incomes to learn how to read, much less to learn during childhood together how to read, and to learn well how to read. Grade school didn't exist for the longest time. You worked in your family's bakery or you worked in the smithy or you worked in the horse barns. You worked with your parents.

1:43:51And you learned what your parents did, what they knew. If your parents raised pigs, you learned how to raise pigs. So it's weird for people to think that it's normal for fathers to not be involved in the upbringing of their children. It's actually an alien concept that has been integrated into the modern belief system. Very, very much wrong. But I think that was our last super chow. Do you not have any other. Don't have any super chats. Don't have any. I think we're going to call it. Because we're at the end of what I really wanted to go over. I didn't want to go into every single story and I'm not going to play

1:44:51the video, because I think we covered what I really wanted to point out. And I think we covered a good deal of ground around it as well. So with that, I will thank all my co-hosts for going through this material with me. Thanks to everybody for listening and considering what we've put out there for you to think about. And thanks very much to Brian for doing all of the background work to make HPR talk happen. Guide all.