The disability trap: Support systems stabilize but limit lives

0:00If we've learned anything from these past couple of years, my fellow Americans, is that personal medical freedom and liberty are in crisis. America outlawed post brings together the top experts in healthcare-related fields to keep you a week ahead. Who listens to America outlawed post radio on the I part radio network? Not on the America outlawed apps for Apple Android and Alexa. Don't miss a moment to come this every Friday at 5 p.m. Eastern. I'm Dr. Randall Bach here on Pack Myths. Explore innovations and give you actual insights into the world of medicine and health. I'm honored today to have with me guest, Athens McQuade. And he is the author of my escape from the disabling power of disability benefits. And this was published January 2026 in the blog magazine called Mad in America.

1:01That's mad on America.com. And I recommend you read it. I think it's transformative. And he himself has been transformative for himself. And finding new abilities amongst what are claimed disabilities. So Matthew, tell us a little about you, your story, and how you came to write that article. Well, the part of my life that directly relates to the article, I'd say probably around around the time. So step back a little bit. I started smoking marijuana chronically at 16 and then around 19 years old. It stopped getting me high and started getting me psychotic, which made it very difficult for me to function within the community. My family, the state legal system, my psychiatric team put a lot of effort into me getting sober. And I was not interested in that at all. Well, from about 19 to 22, I spent a good amount of time in psych hospitals and rehabs.

2:05And it was when I was in one of those psych hospitals that I became a department of mental health client and got on benefits. And then eventually my last, you know, out of the extended period around 22 years old, I got out of a hospital. Obviously still didn't want to get sober, but I was on probation because I had legal issues around getting sober. But I did get sober at 22. And but anyways, I got put on benefits at 19 and kind of when I hit that point where I was in the community again at 22. And I talked a little bit about this in the article. I just kind of settled into this mode. It was like, OK, I'm on benefits now. I can just kind of rest in these for as long as possible, potentially the extent of my life and have a fairly low threshold for responsibility. But also like a low amount of responsibility and just kind of relax forever. And I kind of sat in that mode for about nine months to a year. I went to a day program. I went to meetings and got sober, but I wasn't really serious about having any real aspirations.

3:09And eventually, and I talked about this in the article that you read, I hit a point where it was like, this is unfulfilling. And I saw everybody else, all the peers in my day program environment who already lived that life just going forward. And I was like, fearful, like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be this for 40 years. Maybe it was nice to do this for nine or 10 months, but this shouldn't be like the summary of my goals for my entire existence. So at that point in time, I put kind of a lot of effort into sustaining kind of self-ability, not needing the benefits and becoming capable as an individual. And I was able to completely come off of benefits. I think I got off disability in 2008, and I ended up getting out of my subsidized apartment in 2009, and I haven't needed any benefits since then. And I briefly alluded to this in the article, I'm a peer worker, I've been doing it since 2006. And I've met a vast number of individuals with mental health issues and drug addictions who are on benefits, who were in the same place that I was, who are kind of like their entire aspirations to protect those benefits.

4:22They won't work past a certain threshold. Some people very much consider themselves disabled for the rest of their life, and they're never even going to try to get off. And in the 20 years that I've been working as a peer, I've literally only had one client who completely got off benefits and only hurt rumors of a second client who completely got off benefits. And I've met and worked with dozens and dozens, maybe even up to 100 people. And it's just the amount of people who get stuck on the benefits and just kind of like, okay, I'm going to sit here and put a head around these. These are going to make things comfortable. Maybe they'll do a little school, maybe they'll do a little work, but not enough to really pierce through and become independent anymore. The benefits are very important to protect. Some people won't work at all. I remember working with one client. He's very capable. I'm trying to instill that in him and kind of move him to be a little bit more independent and his abilities and he's like, but I get $240 in benefits a week. And I have to protect those. And I'm like, you could have so much more than $240 in benefits a week that you need to protect.

5:22It's a very quick summary, I guess, but yeah, no, it's interesting. I mean, it kind of pops up or makes crystallize a lot of thoughts that I've had along the same way, because I've treated narcotics and just patients in general. And I also did disability examinations for the state of Massachusetts or the Commonwealth and as well for the VA federally. And, you know, I'm kind of, I had a reputation as Dr. No, the James Mullen villain. That was the term that some people coined for me back in the 80s or so 90s, because I would say no to many things. You know, people come and ask me for drugs. You know, generally the answer was no when narcotics and whatnot. And for disabilities, you know, it's not like I automatically said no, but I might, but frankly, I tried to see the inverse that it's not I was saying no to disability. I was trying to say yes to your capabilities. And I literally had people come in for disability who wanted to be on disability for Massachusetts. And young, you know, in their 20s, whatever, and I'm going to exaggerate this, but let's say, you know, they had had a broken left hand, you know, a year ago.

6:30Yeah. And they want to be in disability, you know, the hand hurts and whatever may not be the same as it was, but like, well, what did you do before? It was a, I don't know, fill in the blank, you know, an interior decorator. Well, is there anything stopping you from doing that now? Like, you know, you work on a computer or, you know, whatever, you do a lot of things with your thoughts, use the other hand to write with. It's like, well, no. So I would write my disability exams, you know, according to, I would write exactly what they had wrong with them. I mean, let's be frank, you know, something's happened and they don't unhappened. So it could be that the, you know, left hand wouldn't look the same. I'm just making this up. But I said, well, look, the left hand is, as this mild deformity, whatever, but the person can do X, Y, Z in the room. You know, she was able to do this, this, this, and this, and this, you know, her cognition is normal. This is normal. So rather than look at the glass half empty, I would try to see how full it was. Maybe it's not, you know, maybe 5% empty, but 95% full.

7:31And, you know, and the funny thing is that the state of, you know, Massachusetts, you know, they wound up eventually appealing me off as one of the physicians doing disability exams. Because I had a practice of, you know, doing that, they said, we just want to hear the disabilities. We don't want to hear any, any positive stuff. And, but before that it happened, I was still doing these exams and I had people that I, you know, just didn't think had any disability at all. It might have been, you know, they had a scratch in their eye at one point, but it's all better. And even they came in and thanked me. They said, thank you, Dr. Bach, for getting me my disability. I'm like, oh, you're welcome. Like, in my view, I, this is somebody I thought that never would get it. But the state was in the business of continuing disability. Because in, in large part, you know, the people who have those jobs at the state, they want to have work. And they are, you know, I mean, this is my formulation. I can say that for the fact, but, you know, their business is providing benefits. And if they stop providing benefits, then they are not needed in their own jobs.

8:33Yeah. A funny thing. But, you know, getting back, you know, enough about me. Let's get back to you. You know, what was the kind of spark and motivation that, you know, changed your mind and your worldview? Then I wanted to come off of benefits. Just kind of when I was doing it one, so I definitely think the benefits were effective in the beginning. There was a period of time when I was finally out of my series of incest and hospitalizations from 19 to 22, where I definitely need to, to ease back into my community responsibilities. But because of the benefits and my lack of real aspirations at that point in time, that just meant going to a day program and living in a group home and getting sober. The real thing that kind of pushed me out of that mold was, you know, I was very, I was 100% of the mindset that, like, I'm just going to ride these disability benefits till the day I die. I mean, I'm on the subsidy list, I'm on the section 8 list, I'll get those. And, you know, it'll be a very low key life.

9:34And like, I rationalized this out in my head. Like, that was fine. I was okay. Not really accomplishing much and just kind of going to a day program and smoking cigarettes and just hanging out forever. And eventually kind of being at a day program with 20, 30 other people who went there on a daily basis. Who were in the 40s, 50s and 60s who were doing that. Eventually, I was like, I don't think I can do this forever. Like, this doesn't feel meaningful to my dignity as a human being. And, I mean, I didn't initially think like, I'm going to completely get out of benefits. But I felt like I have to do more with my life. So I got a part-time job and I started going back to school. And I was just kind of like, I have to kind of feel things out. And the really kind of big moment that completely got me off my benefits was after being about two years sober. And, you know, working a part-time job and downing with school for a while. I eventually got a job mentoring other young adults with mental health issues and drug addictions.

10:36And as that happened, those were on 2006. Peer support jobs for mental health peer support became more prevalent. So when I first started that peer month-term position, it was kind of the only one in the area. But after doing it for a year, there was all of a sudden a career ladder. And I got a better job in that field. And it was the meaning and value I got out of that job, like how it enhanced my life. Was enough for me to be like, okay, I think I'm willing to kind of work full time now and completely get off of these benefits. Because all of a sudden I had more value, you know, taking the risk and being self-sufficient because of the meaning I got from doing peer support full time, then just kind of the low-key, low stress, low potential for failure of just being on benefits forever. So the big, changing moment for me being able to become self-sufficient was the meaning and value I got out of that work and that career.

11:40And I was willing to take that lead. Yeah, so how did things work out at home? I know that you spend some time at home. And I guess I have a second question about, I don't know, we'll just pick one of these two. We'll come back to the other one. Sure. And the other question is kind of about the marijuana. What were your kind of directives? And what was, you know, taught about marijuana, either in the schools or amongst your peers or whatever? And when you're talking about being addicted to marijuana, people, a lot of people think that is not addictive. You know, it's a simple, easy, easy substance, you know, it's just like food and air and water in marijuana. All things, you know, people need, they found a thousand uses in whatever marijuana. And legalization ramp up mass chewsets, you know, we kept hearing about how marijuana, you know, perfect. Saves glaucoma, helps anxiety, you know, cleans your toilet, you know, brands in the newspaper, you know, grows hair in your head, you know, everything good about it. And I think, you know, obviously it was oversold. Alex Baronson is a mystery writer and kind of a public health critic in a way.

12:44He has, I think, a book or at least a series of articles about some of the, you know, non-explained dangers of marijuana. And, you know, I feel at the very least it takes away ambition. Yeah. And I was wondering, you know, we could be to pick either one and talk about your family in your home situation. Maybe we'll come back to the later, but maybe stick on the marijuana one. What was your, you know, anticipation about marijuana? What was so wonderful about it? And do you think that it's a trap in any ways? So, you mentioned that when you were talking, how it helps with anxiety. I had a severe anxiety phobia disorder when I was a teenager to the point where I was taken out of public school in eighth grade. I finished junior high home tutoring and then was transitioned back into school into a private school in ninth grade because the public school system wasn't working for me. And marijuana made it so I could be around other people and not be completely freaking out internally. But like where initially marijuana was something that helped me be social with my peers within a month of the first time I smoked pot.

13:52It became abusive. It became me doing it by myself for that every night. And that's kind of a path I was on from about 16 to 19. And you know, it was starting to cause problems with me and my relationships with my family. I was starting to get involved with more shady people and more shady environments and circumstances to the point where I was arrested multiple times. And I didn't care about any of these things. It was definitely sending me in the wrong direction. And then around a couple weeks before I turned 18 in 2001, the marijuana stopped getting me high, like kind of like a mellowing effect and started making me psychotic. And every time I smoked marijuana from that point in time onward, I immediately had a psychotic episode. And I was smoking marijuana daily and enjoying my psychotic episodes. And that created even more problems for me legally with my family, all sorts of other issues.

14:53The second time I was committed to a psych hospital, I was actually sent to a forensic unit first. And it was either jail or a psych hospital. And they said he's too psychotic to go to jail, which is obviously a blessing I wouldn't want to go to jail. But there was a point in time where marijuana stopped being just a fun social drug. And every time I did it, I was immediately launched into this like psychotic experience where my brain was misinterpreting. And what was going on in the environment around me as if it was communicating with me, everything was communicating with me. And it was incredibly overwhelming. And then I started liking it. And then my parents were trying me to get off it. The legal system was trying to get me off it. And I was fighting that and just led to all sorts of difficulties. So it was definitely not like a cure all safe drug. It really was very, it totally booted me out of all my life plans. I was literally going to start going to Emerson College. And the first week of the first semester, it's just the psychosis got so overwhelming. It was just like three years of hospitalizations. And it completely knocked me off the path I had for my life.

15:56Luckily, I've been able to reset since then. So how did you literally afford the drug? I've been working since I was 16. So I pretty much always had a job. I was like my primary thing that I spent my money on cigarettes gasoline and marijuana. So here's a silly question. Did your parents at any point charge your rent? No, no. And I didn't always even live with them. When I was in high school, my last year of high school, I spent half of my time living with my girlfriend, so. But whenever I was with my parents now. And I was kind of, they kicked me out when I was 19. And they were nice enough to pay a family friend to let me board there. And within, I pretty much dropped out of school that time, I was just smoking weed in her yard and playing with her dogs. And I'd say within three weeks to a month of that, after my parents kicked me out and didn't want to talk with me, I was arrested for the third time. And that got me on probation, which set me to my first commitment.

16:57And then, you know, for the next three years, from 19 to 22, I wasn't really in the community. I was just probably 20 of those months. I was hospitalized. And small increments of being in the community. And then eventually in a group home after after all that ended, where I was able to kind of clean up my life and get on a better path. Okay, so we're going to take a short break. And we're going to be right back with Matthew McQuay. This is America Outlaw of Pulse. Always a beat ahead. This is Dr. Peter McCullough. You know me from America Outlaw of Pulse. And the McCullough Report. Well, I'm inviting you to join me in Nashville, July 2nd, 3rd and 4th. For a truly historic experience in 2026. America Outlaw News 250-10 Nashville. I'm calling all pages to be a part of this unforgettable weekend, packed with inspiring entertainment, incredible fireworks, and nationally recognized speakers who proudly stand for freedom. Together with you and our partners, Clear and the Wellness Company,

17:59we'll celebrate two major milestones, 250 years of America, and 10 years of America Outlaw News led by Malcolm out loud. I can't wait to see you there because your presence matters and you are family. So make history with me and Malcolm. Register now at americolloud.news-foward-slash-nashville. That's americolloud.news-foward-slash-nashville. We'll see you there. Struggling with rising healthcare costs? Health insurance premiums are up 47%. Enter the one-wellness elite membership for $100 per month. You get two free nutraceuticals, free prescriptions on 800-plus meds and 24-7 telemedicine. America Outlawed listeners get an exclusive 20% discount. Go to twc.health-slash-outloud. Use the code out loud. Virus protection and immune boosting just got easier. Enter the daily V-stack. Using cellular absorption technology, we put vitamins A, C, D,

19:00Zinc and quercetin together with a multi-mineral complex for complete protection. The daily V-stack is basically an oral IV of six products all in one at an affordable price. Go to chemicalfreebody.com, forward slash out loud, get the daily V-stack, protect yourself, boost your immune system, and save 20% on your first order. So we're back for our second segment, with Matthew D. Quade, and he is an author at Mad in America. I can't remember the whole title, but it's basically how he got his life back from the disability trap. I do think there is a valid disability trap. I can tell you again, this is about Matthew, but from the other side I've had my own brush-ups and, frankly, my medical career was wrongly suspended on what was an anger

20:01from a man who thought his disability was going to be taken away by me. So the anecdote goes, I've written about this elsewhere, people can find it. I think I've write about it in my substack in a piece called Breaking Bad Medicine. And this was a guy who was 10 years at the time since passed away from narcotic overdose, which is saddened on himself. He didn't follow through on, the treatment came to me for narcotic detox via suboxone. You know, I only saw him this one time, so we never undertook the suboxone detox pathway. But he was on heroin, and he was disabled from a big manufacturing company, of the largest in the region, and had had a significant job there. It wasn't running the place, but he had a real job. And somewhere along the line he got in back pain, and then a couple of surgeries, whatever. But he recovered from those, but he was on disability, started liking the disability. Maybe he started doing drugs, I don't know, which point before or after during. And he was at this point on heroin, but he was doing odd jobs, he was doing fences,

21:04and he was selling heroin, and he was fixing up his mom's house and running another property. So he was not an incompetent man. And, you know, I, he wanted to kind of clean up his life with, you know, get off the heroin one, not. And also save money, because he's spending $250, whatever, $150, $200 a day on the habit. And since he wasn't working, you know, it's kind of an amazing thing that a lot of my drug addicts who are on disability, they always, you know, managed to do enough able things, despite their disabilities, they had capabilities to get enough money for drugs. So that's kind of one funny or odd thing about it. And so we were talking about it, I said, look, I can get you off the one drug, put you on the other drug temporizing. But if you want to stay away from drugs, you need to have kind of a positive impetus in your life. You need to have that internal flame going and feel good about yourself. And right now, it's kind of a game of hide and seek where you're hiding in a way, not to say anybody's seeking you out.

22:06But in a way, you know, I could tell from talking with him, he was, you know, a little bit embarrassed about the whole situation. And if you want to look in the mirror and see somebody that you like looking back at you, you have to be doing things that are positive, informative in a sense. I think we all understand good and bad and right and wrong, all kind of stuff. Anyway, I left it there and, you know, I had some other patients to see, he had to do a urine specimen, blah, blah, blah, you know, blood test, whatever. I came back, you know, I was kind of roaming by, you know, his open door and he called me in and he was kind of in tears. And, you know, it was a big guy's like, you know, six foot three and 300 pounds and, you know, you don't usually see that. And he said, you know, Dr. Bach, you're right. I said, well, I'm always right. But specifically about what in this case? And he said, I'm lazy. He's lazy. And I'm like, what do you mean? He says, you know, I, you're right about what I'm doing. I'm lazy. I don't want to go back. It's easy getting the money and doing stuff and, you know, being drug, whatever.

23:08And I, you know, I am capable of blah, blah, blah. You know, the back is not that bad anymore. I'm doing all this stuff here. You hit it right on the nail on the head. I said, well, you know what? That's incredible. You know, he says, but, you know, I don't, I don't want you to, you know, I've had a lot of my disability. I said, that's not my job. You know, I'm not, my job's not that. You know, I, I don't work with them. I'm working for you. I'm your agent. You know, this is kind of like a lawyer, a client, you know, Dr. patient relationship. And, you know, we'll get you back on the straight and narrow. And I never saw him again. And it was an odd thing because he had, he'd kind of broken down emotionally. And then three months later, he sent in this absurd claim to the state and exaggerated. You know, everything I touched him in the belly because he was overweight. I said, you got to lose weight. He said, I punched him, you know, that kind of thing. Just like everything was a grand prize. I don't know what happened in the meanwhile that he turned against, but he never showed up for the treatment. And that letter became the, the kind of the force behind, you know, everybody looking at my treatment program.

24:09And I didn't think narcotic addiction was a disease. And that put me kind of outside what the modern, you know, wrong thinking is about the whole thing. But a lot of it has to, you know, tied in my basic theory is that, you know, we are human souls and we have human needs. And we do best when we kind of, you know, you could put in a religious concept, you know, glorify God. But even outside a religious concept, you know, we have that kind of divinity within us. We have this sense of who we should be and what we should do best. And when we veer from that, we are miserable. Anyway, that's a long craft. I apologize for that. But I'm wondering, you know, how, how you felt then, you know, in kind of the marijuana fog. Have you been back? You know, where does that place you and what's kind of the kind of thing that pushing you forward? And how do you impart that to other people in your, you know, first while similar situation of what you had been then and how you can get out?

25:11Can you be a little clearer? I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Well, the question is, you know, what's the thing that kind of motivates you day to day to day, the keeps you from going back from some of the previous habits or activities and whatnot? And what's the kind of thing you impart to the people that you deal with? Basically, what keeps me sober? Is that the question? Sure, or what's the part that kind of, you know, when you do this kind of, you're going to go back to benefits and things like that? Well, what you aren't, what is it you're doing right now? You talk about in your article, you talk about peer management and you're, I assume, helping others in this similar situation. Am I wrong? Yeah, yeah. So I do peer counseling. I do that full time now. The people I work with have either mental health issues or drug addictions or both. Oh, I love my clients. I love working with my clients. I love seeing them. One of the things that is the most, I don't know what to use, maybe disenfranchising about the whole experience is that I think all of them, except for one, is on benefits and is very much into protecting their benefits.

26:21One of the things that I definitely discourages me a little is that the people who I work with end up getting on these entitlements and just end up limiting their lives for it. And I see very few people getting out of that. But one of my, I have one client who isn't on benefits now and he's young and he was thinking of signing up and I'm like, don't do it. Just become self-sufficient right now. You don't have a lot of bills. You're 19. You don't have to worry about it. Don't get along the benefits. Trust me, because you're going to get stuck and you're not going to get off. But it's just like even helping people in the smallest way, just taking any step towards recovery. Because I mean, unfortunately, I see one of the things that can happen in the traditional system is a lot of people can fall into it for that safety net and just kind of lay there and be like, OK, and I really like helping people take any steps to better themselves. I have utilized 12 step programs for my personal sobriety recovery and I've kind of branched out with those steps into a place that like, it's my responsibility to be consistently working on myself.

27:26And when you become aware of my own faults, going back and trying to fix those up and I find that in my work, I can kind of apply those principles with the people I work with even in the smallest areas. It doesn't have to be like use things like getting a job and going back to school and becoming self sufficient, just like one person I'm working with is figuring out how to manage food better in relation to diabetes. And any steps for just like fixing things up on even the smallest levels is very rewarding for me to help people what. And I get that out of my employment, which I love. And then also several things. So there's me and there's one other peer worker where I work and we also get to be an example to that other traditional staff members that like, you know, people can take steps. Because sometimes the people we're serving don't always take those steps so we can be down and be like, well, we both did it. And then it just it keeps the whole life. There was something in your article that really struck me, you said, take that risk. And you know, we live in a time where there's a term called harm reduction.

28:30This is something I also encountered in my suboxone treatment. I had a four month tapering program and I wanted people to get too sobriety. And that sort of like I implied before and frowned upon because there's this disease model that narcotic addiction is a disease and taking away the replacement narcotic methods methanol or suboxone is like taking diabetes away from a type one diabetic. Yeah. I don't think I don't see it that way. We stop people with alcoholism from their drug all the time. We don't give them, you know, if they have a whiskey problem, we don't give them replacement vodka. And, you know, and if your tiger woods, you know, with a sex problem, we don't give you, you know, a call girl, you know, three times a week. And, you know, go to the lotus spa, wherever, you know, we don't do that. We don't do that for your gambler. We don't give you a bunch of chips and, you know, say we just want you to go to my son, you know, three times a week instead of eight. You know, it's like we don't do that for any other problem that's an addiction.

29:31But you know, what happens, what I've heard from the people from the other treatment people that these people were seeing is that they were told to stay on the drug. They don't want to take a risk of, you know, getting re-addicted and they might over most and die. So I'm wondering whether there's any pushback for your concept, you know, amongst the state, I assume you have some kind of state employer, you know, employment. You know, what's the, what's the mindset there and what about take the risk and what do you recommend for that? So when I originally wrote the article, I actually wrote the entire article to be metaphorically and applicable to pretty much anybody who gets into a place of complacency where there's work that can be done. And it got a little cut up in the editing process. But I mean, my original goal with the article which got authored a little through the editing process was that like pretty much everybody in this world can start settling for things at some point in time.

30:36That they ultimately might not even be enjoying to the most capacity, might not be completely beneficial. And I wanted it using the example of myself coming off of disability benefits, kind of implying that people like who take a personal disability and themselves to protect their comfort when they should probably be working on something to bettering themselves. So when I wrote that original take the rest thing, it was kind of like, I just see so many people just kind of getting stuck in these ruts and, you know, kind of because it's enough because it's getting them by because it's getting them what they need, even if it's not 100% fulfilling, just being okay with that. And I just kind of want to, I was kind of in a space myself where I'm just kind of branching out and trying to, you know, better completely and I just want to apply that to the article. Well, it does take work, I mean, literally and figuratively, there's a whole panoply of benefits that people have, you know, again, amongst my, you know, cohort of patients that I was seeing not just the drug patient, but others in general, they get, you know, basically they get mass health, which is state Medicaid benefits and they get free insurance is no deductible, no co payment.

31:53So better than most of your insurance is, it's pretty much accepted universally that there might be some different places you can, you know, you may not get topped here, whatever. But for the most part that that takes you anywhere. And then section 8 housing means you're paying, you know, somewhere between zero and, you know, like 100 or 200 dollars a month for apartments that probably cost, you know, a couple thousand or something like that or more. And there's sometimes a disability payment, whether it's state disability or federal SSI or SSDI, you know, getting a stipend check for a thousand or 2000, whatever a month. And then am I missing any, oh yeah, food stamps. And so you're getting, you know, free food, whatever, I mean, the only thing that's not free is maybe a haircut and your drug. And so the Cato Institute had a study on this probably about 15 years ago, so the numbers would probably change. But at the time, you know, probably in today's dollars, maybe $80,000, in order to leave all that.

32:55Yeah. The fact that you're not having to pay for child care, you're not having to pay for, you know, transportation. If you do get a job, it has to be like an $80,000, $90,000 a year job for you to lose all those things before you can get health benefits. And, you know, that amount of food, that amount of rent, and plus have to pay, you know, transportation and so forth and get a, you know, dress up and, you know, so far this is a lot of stuff you have to do. So it's not the switchover part, you know, trains when they go from place to other, they have a little track and they just move over, they go on the next track. It's more like, you know, jumping from the parking lot to the third floor of a building. It's a tough thing and people, you know, don't have really a gradual pathway. Yeah. They just cut you off. It's like transition, but I know I know with the social security, it's like there's an extended period of eligibility where like every month you're under the SGA, you get it every month you're over the SGA.

33:55You don't get it and then once that three or periods over, second you're over the SGA, it's done. And I know from my experience, when I hit that point and from other people I've met who've had the risk there, it usually doesn't even just come with the fact that, okay, you're not getting benefits now. It's like social security is like we're dealing with so many millions of people. We dropped the ball. We should have taken her away from you months or years ago when you owe us this much. I had a client, I think it was last year, a year and a half ago, who hit that exact spot where they were like, okay, you went over your Fag amounts and hit the SGA amount like 2022. You owe us $30,000 and it was like, whoa, because it's not like, okay, he's going to be responsible for working more and paying more of his bills. He also owes the government $30,000 now. And that's just like frightening. I mean, that's a nightmare for somebody who's already, you know, on a lower financial level that they need those benefits now, they owe this massive amount of money to the government. And I know when I came off with benefits in 2008, it wasn't like, okay, you're done with the benefits now.

34:56It was like, okay, we messed up. We should have taken away from you a long time ago. Luckily, I realized I was off my benefits before they did. I called them up. I'm like, you're supposed to stop sending me benefits. So like, this is not how we work. So I said, stop direct depositing it. Send me paper checks and they did that. And then when they caught up nine months later, they were like, you owe us this many thousands of dollars. So the Social Security Office and I gave them a stack of checks and they're like, you still owe us three grand. So it's not just like, okay, now you hit the line, you don't get benefits. They're so behind the ball that people owe them a lot of money. I heard this was a room where I never met this person, but I heard them a social worker that there was one client who had took them like a decade to realize they should have stopped the benefits. The person owed them like $120,000. I had a friend who had a similar issue and luckily he went to Social Security and complained and they gave him an exemption. That would have been several thousand dollars, but I mean, it's not just like, okay, you're losing the benefits now. They're so behind the ball that consistently people end up owing them these massive sums as well, which is impossible for people who are already so poor that they need a benefits at one point in time.

36:02Just squeaking above the benefit amount. When I came off of benefits in 2008, 2009, making $28,000 a year was enough to get me off of the benefits. So I wasn't making a ton of money. Now I owe them $3,000 on top of that. And now I don't have to subsidy anymore. So I have to pay for the apartment and all of my bills and my health a chance at everything and I owe them money. It was frightening. And I've seen that happen to other people as well. I think it's fairly common. All right. So we're going to take another break. This is America, a lot of pulse radio. Always a beat ahead stick with us for our next segment with Matthew McQuade. Thank you. I'm Doug Evans, author of the Sprout book. And I'm also a father with a three year old daughter. And that's why we grow sprouts. Did you know that you could take seeds, add water and get fresh organic vegetables in three to five days without soil, sunshine or fertilizer for under a dollar serving?

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38:10Most energy bars are based on chocolate or fruit and are held together with serps or sweeteners. To learn more, just visit bearbar.com slash out loud. So, we're back for our third and final segment. This is America All-On-Pulse Radio. I'm Dr. Randy Bogg. I'm trying to bring truth to medical situations and social ones in the sense. I bring spotlight and today's discussion is about disability. And the fact that kind of disability payments can be disabling in and of themselves in the sense. They can be immobilizing. And I'm here with Matthew McQuayton. I'm very much in his debt for being with us today. He's an author of an article in Mad in America. Matthew, I'm just curious. How many other people can follow in your footsteps? Do you have, say, underlying, I don't want to use misused the term, but do you have underlying psychological or psychiatric pathology?

39:17Issues and whatnot. What are the kind of things that people get caught up with on a diagnosis basis or a medication basis? Potentially, I'm sorry for this, but this is one little side note. I treated patients for decades. My medical practice, I had a guy and he was not a hugely bright man. He lived with his mom, but he was doing small tasks. He had a kind of manual labor stuff. And one day, he had like a manic depressor or some kind of psychotic break, but he was already in his fifties, I believe. And then he wound up getting into the psychiatric hospital and came back and he was never the same. He was on huge doses of psychotropic drugs. I assume major tranquilizers like for schizophrenia and whatnot. And he had been given some type of schizoaffective diagnosis. And he had like literally spittle coming down the side of his face. His whole demeanor was really numbed and slowed.

40:18And he looked drugged in a sense. And he was not the same person. That's an extreme example. But what's the kind of the interface between the psychiatric world, the diagnosis world, and the working world? And how do you navigate those if there's some possibility you might have psychotic break or whatever? I mean, what are those things for you? And how do they play out, say, for your people you've come into contact with? And what do you think about the diagnosis and or the treatments? So I would definitely say that I don't think having symptoms excludes people from being self-sufficient on any level. I've been lucky enough in the work I've done with peer support to get to work for a couple of agencies that were peer support agencies where everybody had diagnosable experiences. And they were all 100% capable and not inhibited really on any level. That would prevent them from taking care of themselves or anything like that. Me personally, from the point when I was around 19 years old, when I started having those psychotic experiences off of marijuana, that became permanent.

41:23And that has never gone away. And when people ask me to describe that experience, I basically say, when the symptoms are lightest on a daily basis, I do not know what reality is and I live on several realities on a daily basis. Sometimes for extended periods of time, sometimes whole days in a row, I will be in what I call normal mortal everyday reality that I assume everybody else is living in. And very consistently, I will be in realities that are probably not real. And that's constant and has been constant since I was 19. But that does not prevent me from working full time and taking care of myself and functioning within the community. I'm pretty good at coping with things. I'm pretty good at being aware when I'm in those states and dealing with them. And then, I mean, to be completely honest with you, some of them are very enjoyable. And I wouldn't want to throw them away and I think they enhance my character and my life and my experiences. Some of them are completely spiritual experiences for me. They enhance my moral capabilities.

42:23And I would not want to throw them away or even say they were something I would want to be medicated or diagnosed for. And I just think the psychiatric industry doesn't understand all of them completely. But some of the psychotic experiences and the places where my mind takes me are definitely things that I would rather not have to deal with that the medication helps with. And that I like to talk to my therapist and people with stuff like that to figure out ways to cope with. But that's just the way it goes. So to those, I mean, you know, if we are going an airplane or a train or whatever, you don't necessarily want your pilot or conductor to be having a psychotic episode, you know, while he's driving that thing. Yeah, nor your bus driver, nor frankly, you know, that's a tiny plant. Yeah, or your policeman or whatever. You don't want a psychotic policeman. Yeah. Luckily, I feel that allows me to have these experiences and it doesn't end up being a hindrance. So what's the situation? I mean, does it happen kind of in your spare time?

43:24We're down time, whatever. And is it hallucinatory? I mean, you see, you know, little jumping frogs in front of you or they see the world ripple or you want to get in your own mind or what's what's the deal? It's predominantly a perspective thing. Sometimes my brain just interprets things happening around me as if they're communicating to me. Sometimes it's conspiratorial. My brain will interpret. Other people's conversations are veiled conversations about me. People that I brain will convince me that people can hear my thought patterns, film, things like that. Different stuff like that. I mean, I have had visual and auditory hallucinations. They're not predominantly what goes on. It's usually my brain misinterpreting what's going on outside of me. And a lot of the time I can kind of work my way through those things realizing, oh, this is a symptom. This is not real.

44:27And that helps me not get too involved in it. The two things that kind of cause everything to escalate are the amount of stress I'm under in relation to the experience. The amount of stress I'm under is definitely connected with how much I can kind of extricate myself from the belief that the symptoms are actually real. The more I believe that people are lying to me or something like that, the harder it is to keep the stress down and cope and stay kind of a witness to the symptoms as opposed to kind of being driven by them. But they don't really prevent me from functioning on any level. The people that you are seeing, what are the, what's the phenomenon of diagnoses and how fixed are those diagnoses? I mean, I, you know, I, I'm kind of quizzical or puzzled or on the fence about something like ADHD. I'm old enough to have lived in a world where there was no ADHD. There was no.

45:30The word autism was not used either. And it was far, far, far less addiction. You know, a lot of the, I mean, frankly, you know, it's almost what's called now the classic era of narcotic addiction from the 20s to the 70s or so. There was basically almost zero heroin addiction in the entire country. And so that's, that's kind of informs my childhood whatnot. And we've seen everything else grow in the meanwhile. There's more homelessness. There's more anxiety. There's more narcotic addiction. Now there's sexual dysmorphia. There's ADHD. And we also see this kind of autism boom. But I'm a little bit, you know, I don't think there's been that much more increase in severe autism. But a lot of more labels come around that we've had this mental health parody. We're in, you know, we, we see and treat a lot more people for a lot more things than we ever did before. I'm just wondering, what are the kind of things that get in this running? Can you differentiate people who might get out versus not? I mean, again, this is me.

46:33But I think, you know, true schizophrenia is a very is a genuine disability. You know, I think people, you know, who've had that it, you know, they can be medicated, but it's kind of a chronic recurring thing. Somebody I don't want, you know, dropping my bus and whatnot. But in the realm of the other things, I think they're very much manageable problems oftentimes, especially the way autism has been kind of reconfigured into assburgers and the spectrum, all this kind of stuff away from, you know, what is classically the severe autistic. Anyway, so that's a complicated question. So to kind of parse it down a little bit. What are the kind of diagnoses attached to the people that you encounter and can you make any kind of assessment based on what those things are, how well people might do thereafter? So being a peer worker, I try to stay away from diagnoses, even when supervisors and social workers and people above me have tried to get me to read literature and become more familiar with diagnoses and things like that. It's something I try to purposely stay away from. I get more involved in what the individuals I'm working with are actually experiencing and what they want in relation to those experiences.

47:42Do they want to try to grow in relation to those? Are these things they value? Like where are the little blocks? How do we navigate those? I try not to get involved in a lot of the aspects of the traditional mental health system uses because I don't know. That's just not how I work. I don't necessarily always find it valid. I guess is the way to put it. I don't like diagnosis for myself. I think they can be limiting. I think that from my experience, sometimes people, the traditional mental health industry will kind of be trying to treat a diagnosis or a symptom or get rid of it and some of the clients might not want that. They just might want the severity tapered down. I had a manic episode in October that lasted to November that sent me to the hospital for the first time since 2009 and actually led me to write that article on some ideas I had my manic episode. I got a lot out of that manic episode. I enjoyed it. I'm happy I went through it. I wouldn't have wanted to pass it up. The worst part of the experience was how restrictive the psych unit was.

48:44When I got out of the unit, my mom was like, well, what can we do to make it easier the next time? I said, figure out how to let me go through my manic episode in the community because I would have been fine. I just would have needed to take work off for a little bit. The hospital was the worst part. The services, the traditional mental health system offered me was the worst part. I don't like to get involved in diagnoses. I don't necessarily want to throw away all my diagnoses or experiences. Some of them I find them completely valuable. I was talking to one of my clients a few weeks ago about how he's been kind of cycling and hitting crisis is more common than not lately and how he wished he could go into the hospital for three or four days just to destress and then they would let him out and he could deal with his symptoms in the community where it would be more productive. The worst part of the few crisis he's had in last year is that when he did go to the hospital for support, the second he didn't need their support anymore, they were like, no, we don't trust you. We're holding you against your will now. So I mean, I wouldn't even say all the things I would reach out to treatment for so that treatment can kind of help me get through it would necessarily be things I want to throw away.

49:53It's just sometimes it's too intense, sometimes I need a little help. I don't, it's not like an all-enough thing like all the mental illness has to go away. It's wrong and it's evil. It has no value. It's not valid and it has to be parched from my character. That's not how I experience it. And I try not to get into that with the people I work with. I don't even touch diagnosis. I don't even want to know. We'll just talk about what are the experiences where you're trying to go. So we're kind of rounding out our, that made me like eight or ten minutes, something like that. I'm kind of, you know, curious to hear your advice regarding two things, I guess. One would be how to ramp down the disability payments to kind of wean people off the way I was weaning people off narcotics using Spokson but less and less and less and less and less over the days and months and what not. That's number one. Number two, marijuana seems to become become a big industry. You know, should there be a huge morning label and we get them on cigarette packs. I assume they have them at the marijuana stores. I've never frequent one.

50:58But should there be kind of a, you know, a movement away from marijuana is this kind of great, cural recreational thing. Are there dangers there that you've seen any cohort, aside from yourself, about kind of the panoply of problems and, you know, psychotic episodes and whatnot from the marijuana. I mean, do you think that's a real thing or is it just happened coincidentally while you were happened beyond it? So I guess I'll talk about getting off the social security thing and the first thing that popped in my mind the second you mentioned that was that I was talking one of the case managers at my office recently and we were talking about how specifically with SSDI we wish there was like a tapering down process. Like I know how SSI works like you can make like $65 I think and it doesn't matter and then after that it's a two for one split every two dollars you make to take a dollar away. So you can kind of make money and the checks will go down. But with social security like social security disability payments, there's a line that you just lose them and she had a client who was trying to get off of the benefits of work more and it was like an all or nothing thing and she was kind of like I wish like she could work more and get less of a check and kind of.

52:04It could like she could become more self sufficient and responsible for finances and the benefits will go down instead of like okay you made over the SGA it's just done now. If they could kind of have like you could ramp up your work and lower the benefits and kind of ease yourself out instead of like oh you crossed the line and by the way you owe us a couple grand. I think that would be really helpful. I've been over since 2004 so I've really only encountered people being involved with marijuana since it's been legal and all that stuff through my work and through 12 step programs from the readings I've done and stuff like that it sounds like especially with the prevalence of edibles. There's been like a huge uptick in people specifically because for my experience smoking marijuana it's usually a little bit of a depressant when you eat it you get the hallucinogenic effect. And now that you can just go to the store and buy like a candy bar with like 50 grams of pot in it and get confused and like it's like eat one gram of one corner and you're like you're stupid you know what you're doing you eat the whole bar.

53:05And then you're in the hospital because you think your body dissolved and like you accidentally killed your imaginary friend. I've heard that that's you know skyrocketed up since the edibles have been come so easily to obtain now that it's legal. I don't know what the actual statistics are but I've read the people going to the emergency room because they're having psychotic experience animals is just like skyrocketed since the legalization. But I haven't I mean I'm not in the community using it in those environments for 20 over 21 years now so I don't necessarily see it only in calendar when I meet people with 12 step programs or you know people that I work with. Yeah so I was at a party this is probably 20 something years ago when we longer 25 years ago was we were playing poker and it was a regular poker party and somebody brought food whatever. And so there were chips and this and that's poker much a guys yeah and you know there were some desserts out and so I took one of the desserts and there was the little cakes and whatnot and somebody said you know that that's herbal like all right.

54:12I thought I meant like vegan you know herbs and what not all nice and nice and so I had a piece or two and and you know start feeling different and I wasn't a marijuana user I kind of had you know I might have a you know a glass of beer maybe a few days or whatever not a big drug guy ever. And anyway by the time I got home you know it was like they were all laughing because I said what was in that now it's like oh that we had X one you know this is before legal marijuana one up but you had willingly taken it so I in a sense I was drug but probably because I was you know stupid I didn't realize what he meant when he said that. And and I came home and I looked in the mirror and you know everything was like what you're talking about like dripping is like everything was like moving around it was like you know I've kind of looked like that Edward mooch the screen painting you know the guys got it. Yeah and everything's just like moving around it wasn't colors changing but you know I looked at myself and I looked old and I you know all this kind of like oh my god I got to be at work in the morning like what is this going to be like.

55:23And you know I I wasn't like wobbly or anything like that but everything was just anyway so I get to bed and I you know I had the alarm set up then I got up and I was fine you know so this story doesn't have you know much of an ending to it except that I did experience that and it you know people you know I think downplay the kind of hallucinogenic and psychoactive active parts of marijuana I don't you know fully understand the brain chemistry part. And obviously there are some things that can you know bring that about I mean all this LSD and mushrooms and whatnot bringing genuine hallucinations and I'm not sure how that coincides with the marijuana part. But you know that this can be you know a disorienting thing I mean I at that point I was probably in my 40s or whatever you know I had a stable job of my own things and whatnot and and that was like whoa you know if I were like younger and had less basis you know instability and whatnot I mean that could be a very. You know kind of I don't know I suppose it could be an attractive experience for some people who are unhappy with themselves or their lives or whatnot.

56:28So we're going to end it right there so any last last words Matthew. No I'm okay it's great to be here thank you so much. That's all for today remember every myth has a solution and every truth has the power to transform your health. Find us on America out loud pulse radio every Friday at 5 p.m. Eastern or on demand wherever you get your podcasts. Stay curious stay informed and we'll see you next week America out loud pulse always be the head.