The Clancy Case Is Testing Every Mother Watching — Most Won't Say Why

0:00This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Rouski and Robin Dree. Throughout this episode, we've unpacked the fierce public division and the disturbing conspiracy theories surrounding the Lindsey Clancy tragedy. But to truly understand why this case is completely short-circuited, the public psyche, we have to look at the underlying emotion driving all of this anger, primal fear. There is a deep unspoken terror in admitting that the ultimate symbol of safety, a mother, can be hijacked by a biological sickness. People are lashing up because accepting the reality of severe postpartum psychosis means accepting that we're not always in control of our own minds. Breaking it down with Shavon Scott, psychotherapist, and Robin Dreeck, retired FBI Special Agent Chief of the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. And society has this deeply ingrained, almost sacred archetype of the perfect protective

1:03mother, whether we had one or not. When a case like this happens, it doesn't just seem to shock people. It completely short-circuits our foundational understanding of maternal instinct. How much of the public's vitriol is actually just a defense mechanism to protect this idea that mothers can't do this. This is an impossibility. This is not who they are. So why could this possibly be unless she's possessed by the devil? Yeah, creating a monster as people have done in this case, I think allows psychological distance for people. It's like, well, that's, as you say, somebody who's demon possessed or someone who's just evil, and normal mothers would never do something like this. And yes, we have this vision of mothers as this special category of humans. And I can tell you, as I'm sure you run into, but I've certainly run into in my line of

2:04work, not all mothers love their children. Surprise! Don't! And sometimes many women, I mean, I hear this in therapy, where people will talk about the things that they don't talk about to other people, at least that's supposed to be how it works. There are mothers who regret having their children. And they'll say I was never really cut out for this. And that certainly wasn't the case in Lindsay's situation, who loved being a mother, who did a wonderful job. But there is this blowback, I think you nailed it, from people who just don't want to acknowledge that there's not an immediate, intense, I mean, I think people have theories about women are biologically destined to bond and to be nurturing. And I don't think that that's true. I think that's a myth. And we need to understand that so that women can feel safe enough when they're struggling

3:05to come to somebody and, you know, disclose, I'm having a hard time here. And I just need help and support. I'm not adjusting to this. I'm worn out. I'm exhausted. All the things that real women say. So Shivan, in order for progress to happen in these areas that we wish them to happen in, it takes an ability to have a conversation, a dialogue as we've been talking about all day and for almost weeks now in this case. And we look at the five factor model of personality assessment like we did before we started to show, you know, two, two main areas, I think really impact the ability for someone to have a great conversation about this and be open to ideas and to, and to innovate solution and to be a critical thinker and that is the ability to be open to new ideas and the agreeableness to have a good conversation without devolving into hatred, rants and everything else. And so when you're dealing with someone that we've been seeing ourselves surrounded with that aren't open and aren't agreeable to have on conversations as a therapist, when

4:09you see this coming across your plate, I'm going to put you on a spot. You always ask those great questions and you give us great therapy examples. How do you inspire someone to start moving down the path to being more open and to being more agreeable when you encounter them? Whenever I feel like I'm budding up against somebody's rigid defense mechanism, it usually doesn't work to say you're full of shit. You know, I've done that. I'm not always in my best frame of mind, but I try to be curious and get them to say more about why do you think this way? Why do you feel this way? What is this bringing up for you? And then I mean, I'm very open about using my family because I wrote about it in my book, right? I've got mentally old people in my family and I'll disclose that. And that's when I go back to, you know, I can use my, my grew up with an aunt with schizophrenia living with us part of the time and the crazy things that happened.

5:12And that has made me curious, which is one of the reasons I studied psychology. I want to understand the human mind. Why do people do weird things? You know, why do they have the struggles they have? And so just if we can stay calm and in our thinking brain and be curious and ask the person to say more, and that then can open the door and they can become less defensive. And then I'm very open about using myself. As I said, you know, heart disease, brain disease, it's all the same biologically. We can all get something like that and just come from a place of my own curiosity, openness and compassion. And that's when I'm in my thinking brain and my best self. It's so amazing that the behaves of trust or transparent and transferable all across. You know, so in my line of work and all of our lines works the same thing when you engage everything with curiosity. And you do what you just said when you engage people with open-house communication,

6:13transparency and vulnerability. Shields come down, brains open up, ears open up, mouths start closing unless you're going like, I can't believe what I just heard. I mean, your ability, and that's why again, not that we're putting a plug in for your book right now. And I saw someone in the chat already ball one. Her book is so good at being able to relate to everyone through the challenges she's been through, Niperd, a fantastic read, listen to it twice. And I encourage you to get the audible because listen to Shivon all day long is very soothing for the soul. I'm going to move it around the screen like you remember like you said, like the bouncy things that you're working for. The bounce back and forth. We're going to be like, oh, yeah, it's a set of ability to communicate. Don't walk down. Don't argue context and just be open. Oh my gosh. And it's hard because people right now trying to understand people's context and points of view right now has been so mentally exhausting for those of us that have been trying to understand where you're coming from so we can communicate because it's a move in target with people right now. You know, Robyn, a why psychotherapist author of the book, Niperd named Shivon Scott about two weeks ago, I think told me don't confront be confused.

7:18Yes, I love that one. I wrote that down and I've written it down like seven times in different places this week because I love that. I mean, it is, it is. It's a great strategy for trying to cause your exact, yeah, I mean, I know that. I mean, I know that definitely you can't just go like you're an idiot. I'd love to say that to people, but it's not always the most effective if you're trying to win the hearts and minds of those around you. And if you're looking for the emoji for it, I use it all time. It's this one. Yeah. That's what you need to know. I like it. Let's, I mean, another point here and we've touched on it a little bit, but let's talk the brain attack versus the heart attack. I mean, from, from a clinical perspective, why is it so incredibly difficult for people to separate a psychiatric illness from a person's character? If someone crashes a car and kills a pedestrian because they had a sudden heart attack, we call it a tragic medical event. It's not their heart wanted to kill everyone in the car. I mean, why does a brain attack automatically make someone an evil mastermind in the eyes

8:20of the public? I, I think it's back to that ignorance of people just not understanding that the brain is just another organ in the body. And we have this sense that our self and our character is what it's all about. And in truth, I mean, we see this with people with severe head injuries. Their personalities change. And that's scary to think, yeah, I could be in a car accident, have a head injury and I lose my memories and I lose my impulse control and I'm not me anymore. But I don't think people understand that. That when we have a disease, when we have something like bipolar, when we have something like schizophrenia, we're altered, we're changed. And nobody wants to think that that could happen to them. So it creates this psychological safe zone. If they say no, it's a matter of character or no, it's Satan, you know, and, and it's like it could, it really could be any of us that have something like that happen.

9:22A stroke, you know, Alzheimer's Alzheimer's. Yeah. I mean, that one's giving grace to people with Alzheimer's and yet the same things happen. It's a disease of the brain that's killing the brain and yet people have grace when people are saying and doing horrendous things there. But they don't always. I mean, I think that's an interesting point. A lot of people don't. There's still plenty of people who function normally drive their car, take their kids to school, go to work, do everything. Have a productive conversation in life who will look at a, an ailing individual in their life, their parent, their grandmother, whatever, who, who has Alzheimer's or dementia and sit there and go, why don't you remember that, mom? That's true. Oh, come on. Oh, yeah. And they get so frustrated with these people as if being more frustrated or shaming them is somehow going to magically bring the memories back to life or make them, you know, understand that there's not sailboats out the window while they're sitting landlocked in Wichita, Kansas.

10:22I mean, it's, it's kind of maddening how, again, people can, people still, I mean, they don't understand it there even in many ways. You're right. You're right. I've gotten into that with people online who are blaming their parent with Alzheimer's for not remembering. Yeah. And that sets me off because that's elder abuse, you know, when you're going after mom because she can't remember things and, and yeah, people don't, don't get it. I think we ought to be teaching about the brain in high school, you know, there should be a health class where we, we explain how the brain functions and the neurobiology and the, you know, just the basics. And certainly you can take classes in college, but obviously it's not required because I've run into college professors who are ignorant about this stuff and, and we need to do a better job with it. At the end of the day, we live amongst a lot of stupid people. And, and there's plenty of smart ones too. And I think that's it's like it's navigating that.

11:23It's navigating it. It's trying to understand it. We're all on a mission. It seems to have everyone be on the same wavelength of understanding, but we're never going to get there. It seems. Yeah. And in how, how do we, how do we coexist in, in an environment like that? I'm going to say probably find things that, let's just, let's just start this out there. What about the folks who are listening to watching this right now who do have quite a rift in a relationship of their own right now? Maybe it's in their home. Maybe it's at work. Maybe it's something, whatever it has to do with this case. And there's people are like, my God, how the hell do you think like that? And they're really feeling like I have to question everything. I feel about you now because I don't know how your brain works this way or it doesn't work this way. And go either way, depending on where that person is standpoint is, what would you say to that individual right now to kind of cool the temperature down and allow people to keep moving forward without killing each other themselves? It's tough. We run into this. A lot of people have divorced over politics.

12:23I mean, I like to think that if it's a solid relationship, people can take a breath, be curious and understand that maybe they don't have to agree 100%. On everything to be in a relationship. I mean, you'll see people split with their parents over things like this because they disagree. But bottom line sometimes it's just not going to work. And when people get really rigid and in this moral, you're evil if you don't agree with me. I mean, maybe there's a good marriage counselor who can kind of help with that. Not me. I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to. No, I don't want to. You gave a great example about how you canceled in marriages though. I thought about how you got one partner to listen to the other partner. I mean, you give such great, that's why I love asking that a quick. And what would Shavon say in this situation? And you just, you're beautiful one line of velvet poetry coming out about how to get people to inspire to think differently. I'm going to tell my husband when he gets annoyed with my opinions.

13:26It's velvet poetry. You've got to listen to my velvet poetry. That's what I'm going to do. And now, velvet poetry. I mean, I may do that. Yeah. That's good. And you're some good pictures of you and him this week, by the way, that you post it. Those are good. Yeah. All right. Nightbird is Shavon's book. Go check it out. Available wherever you get books. Also, the minds of mass killers in case you want to go down that road too. There's plenty to jump into there. So go check that out. Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agent and host of his own master class now. Robin, tell them about that. Yeah. Check it out on masterclass. Wherever you get masterclass that is masterclass.com. Next class, Robin Drake is about behavioral assessment. All things we're talking about today and really it comes down to become the person people trust. Link is definitely. Link is also in the description. Go and check that out. And do give us your thoughts in the comments section on sub stack and YouTube. If you've not weighed in yet, all right. Until next time for Robin, Shavon, Lisa and Todd, I'm Tony.

14:27We'll talk again real soon. For more on this case and others, then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Bruski and the Hidden Killers podcast.