The Case of the Missing Paychecks

0:00The following program contains names, places and events that have been anonymized or fictionalized for the purposes of protection and safety. The following program is provided for entertainment purposes only and any commentary from the hosts are strictly conjecture and should not be held as making any definitive statements about the truth or identity of any particular individuals or circumstances. If you or a left one are involved in an abusive relationship, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-720334-support. Happy dating detectives Monday! Happy dating detectives Monday! Hi Hannah! Hi Mackenzie! We have quite a story today. One of my favorite things about the story is how strong her friendships are throughout and made her like at every turn as hard as it gets. She was like, I can get through it and shout out to whichever friend recommended us to her

1:01and helped her submit. This is still super fresh you guys. So this is kind of a, we hear a lot of stories about this month is when it blew up. Yeah and so we hear a lot of stories of people going through this and then how they've dealt with it and how they've healed and this is still ongoing as far as her deciding how she's going to move on and stuff like that. So any support is obviously great. So yeah absolutely really fresh. Yeah so her name is Emmy and she is great. You will love her and be inspired by her and also I'm sure joined the joined the army of people supporting her as she processes everything going on right now. Like it's I was wondering like as she was telling her story I'm like well this is interesting and I just I knew that obviously she's on our show so some things going crazy but I was like I sounded like a delight. I was a like I got to tell you I was a little bit shocked at what he did like I don't know and I'm not. If Mackenzie shocked then you know it was out of left field.

2:03I didn't expect it so I really think you guys are going to appreciate this because it just goes to show you that you never freaking know. I would love we have a comment section if you listen on Spotify we also have Patreon. I would love you to you know if you write something about the ending put spoiler first but like tell us what you think he was doing because I had suspicions and they were like partially correct but man I didn't like I didn't think everything that happens happened. So if there's any point where you have a I like to say a WTF moment or a suspicion. Yeah yeah we'd love to get your comments and you can always discuss all the episodes further on our Patreon. It's $5 a month you get two bonus episodes and you get a whole community of sleuthies who want to gab with you and we post updates sometimes and just like do livestreams sometimes so it's just a cool cool community. We really appreciate and love you guys thank you for being so supportive of everyone and

3:07thank you for being here. Shall we get into it? Let's do it. Hello Emmy thanks for being here. Thanks for having me I'm so excited. Thank you so much. If that's okay we'd like to give you the floor so you can go ahead and take us away. Okay so I'm a mom and a hairdresser by trade. I've been married once before and we weren't married for very long we were together longer and we had a son and then had a daughter but before we had the daughter we got married. So we were married in like a november and by March we were separated. You know he struggled with addiction and he was just the big time narcissist which I didn't notice but my friends did during that time and when I separated from him I started learning about what a narcissist is and so I was really hyper sensitive to that you know like the verbiage and how when you talk to somebody else who dealt with a narcissist you're like did they go to the same

4:09university or something because they're the same stuff. I don't know I have no idea it's it's wild to think about how a narcissist they don't know each other but they behave and talk the same way in the same verbiage. So when I separated from him I was in Colorado and started working in a local salon and just trying to put my life back together with my two little kids and it took about two calendar years to just divorce the man. So it took a lot of my energy all of my free time it was exhausting on all levels. He never even showed up to the court hearings so the judge said well he's had plenty of time to dispute anything further so he signed my divorce degree and I left a divorce woman and I I had tears but they weren't of sadness it was like a you know like it was just like a closure thing with a life done and I was relieved I was so excited and charged like finally this chapter is

5:12closed but in the town I lived in super small town got to know a lot of people and so I had all these friends and they were encouraging me now that your divorce is final you need to start dating again so they kind of nudged me and I was very clear I was like I'm not looking for hookups this was 2019 2018 and how do you meet people it's all online you don't meet people organically anymore and like I don't go to the bars I don't go to the clubs I don't do that surplus I was like in my 30s so it's like raising two babies yeah exactly so I was on the tender and I was like oh my god you know because those people are very specific they want just hookups you know and so a friend of mine had told me hey I use this app bumble and it's very specific it's very intentional and it kind of filters out some of those people so I create a profile in the bumble but I was very intentional I was very upfront about what my wants and desires were for the future because

6:13on bumble you can put have children want more children or have children don't want more children and I had specified I have children and I don't want more children because you know I was in my late 30s and a starting over would be like a nightmare you know because my kids were also like both approaching to be both in school right so then I meet Noah and we were messaging on the the bumble app and before we even exchanged numbers we were talking about goals and I told him I loved adventures and where in Colorado there's like you throw a rock in any direction there's a mountain there's a hiking trail there's a biking trail there's all sorts of outdoor things you can do and so he was like I love nature I love this I love working out I worked out all the time and we should run together I would love to run next to a beautiful lady yeah and I'm like oh my gosh well like and he was he matched the energy right we were connecting on these dots that I was like okay this is a check this is a check and so we had scheduled our first date and it took us a little time

7:15with our schedules because he worked some odd hours and so we finally got to go on our first date we went on a hike and it was so much fun and we both kind of joked populated area because I worry about first date hikes it wasn't a highly populated area however it wasn't so remote and funny that you say that is that because I joked I was like can I put my purse in your trunk and he was like sure and I said is it right next to the duct tape and rope and stuff and I was like if you kill me out here just make my body easy to find and he had kind of laughed nervously and later he had told me I was afraid you were gonna murder me in the woods like you know so we had a little funny moment because also before we met in person we were talking about our past he was talking about his abusive marriage and I was talking about my abusive marriage and how we had learned a lot about narcissism and that he had said his ex-wife was physically abusive to him but also

8:15was verbally abusive and so here we are these two little traumatized people trying to just put our lives back together right and so did he have kids yes he has four children and they were older than mine when we met they were all under 18 but they were close approaching to that and so we had talked about our kids we had a great time we had really good banter we got along I was so totally comfortable and so about a couple weeks into a stating doing certain things fun adventure things and after two weeks he wanted to introduce me to his mom and I was like okay and so we go over to his mom and his step-dad's house and I met his mom Beverly loved her off the bat she loved me and during the time that I met his mom and started to getting to know her the the ex-wife crazy thing was legit the mom backed it up yes it's kind of it's kind of comforting I imagine for you to

9:17hear mom like right right because she was like oh man she is you know piece of wild yeah she is she is something and and that's the thing it's like it's not that your ex can't be crazy there's just a way to talk about it in a relationship versus being and he wasn't like how some people describe like oh man she crazy as hell and you know whatever he just was saying you know she was really abusive to me she would hit me and I would just let her hit me and I never put my hands on her and it was better it was me instead of my kids and so we were kind of learning things together at this time right we're dating seriously and we had both come to realization that maybe we were trauma bonding but I was okay with that because I said who else would better understand each other and else you've been through it correct yeah so like we were learning things we were learning more things about narcissism we were learning more about how to grow I was being vulnerable with him

10:18I was sharing these things and he was sharing things with me and he was being super vulnerable and super transparent about rebuilding his life and having to start over and he sounds like he's everything you wish to your ex-husband had been like yeah more dependable in terms of child support absolutely and like and and wanting to be involved with his kids like on the level that I wish that my kids' dad would have been involved with their lives and you know I did I know I moved in fairly quickly and I didn't have reservations because I we had this connection and we had this bond and we were growing this relationship and I would talk to some of my friends and they're like well when you know you know you know kind of like if it seems right it's not yeah they thought he was super fun he was super engaged with them and I just felt happy I felt like I felt satisfied with where I was at in life and so I had told you he was in law enforcement and so he was working at some I don't even know what to describe it as but it was like for troubled youth so it wasn't in

11:20law enforcement per se but it was kind of related to that in a way and it wasn't a good paying job and he had also told me that he had a bachelor's degree in software engineering and I was like oh my gosh why don't you work in the tech world you can make so much more money doing that and he was like I I did I did I worked in that world for a couple years but the people were too nerdy they didn't get my jokes I didn't get my humor and I just didn't feel satisfied with that and I was like okay fair enough and I didn't push I just was like whatever makes you happy that's what I want you to do and so I had encouraged him to ask him what is it that you want to do and he had said he was he wanted to try and be in law enforcement again and so he had applied for some of the local law enforcement there in Colorado and it just didn't work out but he ended up getting a job for a state juvenile detention center and so he seemed really happy when he got that job you know I was thinking great so I have a lot of friends I'm very social my friends love me obviously you know obviously

12:21but I that's my friends against these dogfights my one friend Hannah she's the one that was really I know I know she was the one that was encouraging me to do the dating thing again anyway when I was living my single mom life my kids and I would go over to her house all the time and so she invited Noah and I to have dinner over at her house and we were probably like a month in and we go over there and we're having dinner and she brings up you guys are done having kids right and I was like hell no you know fuck them kids we're not getting you know we're we're done you know he's he's got four and I've got two and minor about to be in school it's this plenty of kids you know and he was not saying a peep he was being quiet and I was kind of like side-eye him your boat was said like hell yeah he was so right well he was very vocal prior to that instance he was like no more kids that's it when he had out of hisectomy so there

13:25was no kids on the table and I was fine with that and so we get home I asked him I was like hey um you were uh very very quiet during that conversation about having another kid and what's that all about and he said well maybe I'm changing my mind and maybe I would like to have a child with someone who's not crazy you know and I was like okay um so is it you'll figure because I'm not well I feel like he's using like he's saying I didn't want kids but now I love using my mind. His mind was changing and that's what the discussion was and I was like okay mind you I'm an open-minded person so I said we can try and if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen and I said well you have a vasectomy and there would be a medical intervention that would it would require to try for a baby right because I started doing some research on it and with a reversal there's no

14:30guarantees and how did it feel when you switched that decision in your mind like when you would talk about having a baby what was what was the feeling in your stomach like were you just so excited I was I started to get really excited about it I was reserved at first but I backed what I said I I'm open-minded you know we can try this but it was kind of like a pinned conversation if you will because we met in summer of 2020 by March of 2021 we were engaged so the vasectomy reversal conversation had kind of been pinned and then the month before we were getting married is when he had the reversal so we were gonna try after we had gotten married right so we get married in 2021 by early 2022 I did find out I was pregnant and we were still very much happy we had come home from my honeymoon things were great he was great with my kids he was involved and along the way too he was like I just want to make I want to make good money because he was used to making a ton of money in Montana he had made like six figures he had told me and I was like you know money is not

15:36important like I don't I don't find it's not the most important thing that I revolve my world around I had told him I want to be financially in a place where we can pay our bills and not have to juggle shit but he was driven right I want to make more money to provide for our family and I want us to do well and he said that he wanted me to be a stay at home mom and I said you know I would love to not feel the pressure to have to work that's where I was at I said I could probably scale back on my hours I don't have to work full time so he was looking out a state to find better paying jobs so I was probably my seventh month of pregnancy and we get notification that his oldest daughter had ran away she had ran away disappeared she was 17

16:36at the time that's great and her name is Sophie and so Sophie got in touch with Noah and she said I I'm hiding from mom she was trying to put me in the mental institution and I didn't want to go but because she was a minor still the only solution she could come up with was just I got a high I'm not running away yeah so she was high so then I'm like okay are you you know we were on speaker phone and I was like are you safe and she said yes so Beverly butter one way ticket to Colorado and we both said come out here come live with us so you're gonna be an adult soon you can live with us so she came to live with us and it was great because throughout our relationship and now marriage at this point I wasn't super close to this kids and I was really older yeah they're older I'm not trying to mom them but I had always encouraged like you know talk to your kids call them even if they don't answer don't be afraid make the effort and so he was he was doing that he was rebuilding the relationship with his kids and so when when Sophie came to live

17:37with us he was super excited and super happy and might we're so happy we're happily married we're having a baby like nothing still no red flags for me outside of these very big drama things with his ex but that was like that was all validated and Sophie was there when I had the baby and Sophie was a great help around the house we were creating a bond and my kids loved her they played around and even though there was a big age difference there she was really kind and really loving to them you know and still life was so good like we had all these things happening he he was working at his job he seemed he had his complaints about that job there was people he didn't like at the job but you know it was a job so Noah has a bachelor's degree in my mind he's worked in the tech world before and as we were approaching the end of my pregnancy he really was adamant knowing that I wouldn't be able to work for some time and so he's like I'm gonna get a second job so he gets this remote online job where he's writing code so he's working two full-time jobs but we never saw paycheck from

18:42the one job and I kept asking him where is this check and he goes I don't know I'm supposed to get a check they said I have a check and he told me he started getting messages from his ex-wife that there's you have all these medical bills that are coming to my address and he's like what medical bills I don't have any medical bills come to find out there was this huge bill of medical bills for all four of his kids of going to the hospitals and she was putting him has the sole financial responsible person yes yes but she was putting it to her address and so it had reached like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars oh my god what's going on with these children well she's the type of mom to take her children to the emergency room instead of to a doctor's office that's why you don't have to pay a co-pay when you go to a hospital yep they just they just take your information they don't ask you for any money so then he had gotten to the bottom

19:43of it and he said that every single penny he was making with the second job was being garnished by Montana that they were taking one hundred percent of his money because now these medical bills had not just been passed due or in collections they were in judgment zone so the hospitals are trying to get their money back yeah and so now they are making judgments and they're they're taken money and so we were only getting one check which was his job at the juvenile detention center and I was like there's no way they can take a hundred percent but then like in all the rational side of me I'm like maybe they can because when there's a judgment and it's a medical bill maybe they can take you know I've heard people have these financial situations where they've taken an entire paychecks to pay for some debt like if you owe the government or you owe state agencies or whatever like you they can yeah they can come after you and so it wasn't unreasonable and I'm you know like okay I'm still being a supportive wife and so I was like okay well it's not ideal but we can we can make it work right so positive energy I'm like okay we can do this it's

20:47gonna be rough but we can make it through it and even more reinforcement I was like he's just really hardworking dad and husband and like he's really doing his best and he was working 40 hours at his regular job and 40 hours at this other job and I was like it's hard yeah and at the time my brother Ryan was in the Navy and he got close to Noah because he was also close in proximity so he would come and visit us frequently and then he actually had to have a surgery and when you're in the military they put you on convalescent leave or whatever so when he had that surgery he came to our house and he was there so during that time he was getting close to Noah as well and Noah was really still adamant I want to make more money I want to make more money so my brother was kind of giving him some ideas and stuff and he started looking into higher paying tech jobs and he had said I think I think that's the route I need to go I don't think law enforcement's for me because it just doesn't pay it doesn't pay enough so he found a major aerospace company

21:52went through the whole thing he had to fly out to Georgia to take a test because they want to test your skill on certain things that the job requires and so he went out there they paid for it under my impression and he had passed all the tests and they said well pay for your move will reimburse you so whatever it costs you to move will reimburse you for this move and you have family in Georgia I do have family in Georgia yeah and so that was kind of an ideal thing because Ryan my brother was saying that he wanted to move back to Georgia once he had finished his time in the service and so it was like this this seems to be all falling into place here and Noah had kind of got his spark back because he was kind of you know he was stressed through all this time and so I was just again supporting whatever you want to do if it makes you happy I'm not in it for the money but if that's what will make you peace of mind as a husband and a father I'm back in you 100 percent so we had to borrow money from my brother to make the move because it's expensive we you know when

22:56you hire a moving company it's a big it's a big ordeal and a company what what was not paying for all of it they were gonna reimburse they were gonna reimburse so you have to pay for it which is how most companies work so we borrowed money to relocate and I had seen an employment letter so I had proof of this job totally legit and so we were able to secure a rental place and we move and once we get to Georgia not a single paycheck materialized from this aerospace company so now we don't have the job that we were getting that income he had at the juvenile detention center and I forgot to mention that after I had the baby my friend brother was looking for someone to work from home remote so I was then employed before we moved to Georgia but it was remote and because I had the baby it was convenient for me to do and where our financial status was I was like I got a work

23:59I got a hustle you know to help support our family when you move yes because it was completely remote I could do that job so I was working but what I was making was not I had known right because we were moving to Georgia but I was also under the impression he's gonna make six figures I'm making supplemental and I was thinking like my income can just be disposal income if we're making six figures we can have all these adventures again we're dreaming again we wanted to do these adventures we want to do these things so what's his family this time he is saying that it's those debts still they're taking 100% of his check because of that debt in Montana and he was completely devastated overwhelmed by the situation but they can't garnish reimbursement wages yeah I mean this is when spidey senses started going off now we have three kids and life is expensive but I was a mom I was working I had a baby you know like moose him yeah you're just trusting him to take care of that side of absolutely 100% but eventually he tells me I I lost this job with the

25:02Sarah space company because they have very high standard of efficiency and so if you don't produce at what they want you to produce that you lose your job and it's just most places if you know that good because they were paying you anyways or he I know I was like well and it was no skin off my nose right like you said hadn't received a paycheck so I didn't you know when he shared that information was he like upset yep or embarrassed all of it he was embarrassed he was upset he was panicking because here he is like I've always been a good provider is what he kept saying consistently through this whole time like I've always been a provider and now I'm I can't even be like he felt he was expressing to me that he had been robbed of that feeling because the x-wife was just wreaking havoc on our lives in a financial way in a very large way and so I said okay well let's get you another job what do you want to do so then he started revisiting you know if he says go back he was still looking I told him no absolutely yeah I'm not going

26:05to do it again I'm not we're in Georgia we're gonna just do what we got you know so then he looked into another tech company they were out of Phoenix again they require testing so he had to fly out I believe my brother Ryan had helped him with plain ticket to get out there so that he could do these interviews because again my my brother's involved in this cheerleader team here so then Ryan helped him get out there no a stayed with Ryan and then Ryan drove him around and took him to the place it was like I had a hotel where they facilitate meetings and stuff like that to take these tests so he takes the test he stays with my brother he comes home and he says well they didn't hire me it was like want want you know and throughout this we had started doing the uber and door dashing thing because it's kind of like fast cash and they can't garnish it because it's not an actual paycheck you know so like we were I mean like when I tell you we were outside of the box we were outside of the box I'm straight hustling right and then Noah had to go back to Colorado he

27:06had this friend his name is Luke and I had known about Luke when we were out there in Colorado but I had never actually met him in person and what I had known about Luke from the get go is that he had cancer and he had survived a different type of cancer but then he had new cancer and it would come on worse you know whatever and he was still working and he was working at the juvenile detention center as well and so he was just this warrior person right like but I had never met him but I I never pushed it because you know that that was one thing that Noah had um he had kept his co-workers separate from me and like his professional life because in his previous marriage had made him distrustful because he had told me that after he was divorced he had found out that his wife had actually messed around with a couple of his co-workers okay and so for him that was like a hard line and I didn't I respected that boundary I had no interest you know like I don't

28:07care fine whatever I don't care right it's fine it's not that important exactly and so he was making all these trips back there mind you we have a joint account at this point so he's not using our money to buy these tickets he's claiming that Luke is buying these tickets to send him out there because apparently Luke is super loaded he had come into some inheritance money years ago and he had been really financially responsible and so like you know he was like he just he his daughter wasn't there that's that was why Noah had to go because you know he needed someone to help take care of him while she was gone and so I was like okay you know things sir they're starting to get a little bit more suspicious for me as far as like these jobs aren't panning out why and he's going to visit his friend to make money or just no just to be a friend's cancer because he has cancer and it wasn't never about monetary gain but he kept he would say certain things that was implying that maybe he would have added him into his like will or something I'm like well you can't expect that because like

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33:18didn't have a solid job this is our solution yes so we move our belongings into storage we relocate to her house and how far was she not far a couple hours and so I'm like this is going to be great everything's starting to look up you know okay he still doesn't have any money but the financial pressure has kind of come down we don't have rent and we can focus on paying off debt and paying off the vehicle you know like all these things that I have like these goals that I've been very communicative with Nella about I just I want to be financially free I don't want to be bogged down with debt and all this stuff so initially when he came here he was looking to get on the local Pete like Sheriff's Department so he was revisiting that again as well as tech jobs and stuff because I was just like I don't care again maintaining I don't care what you do just find a job something I don't care if it's $10 an hour find a job take a job I need financial contribution at this point because it had been a year and a half since we had left Colorado that any of his money that he was making was contributing to our household and so he had applied he went through

34:24the process for this one particular department and then he said they didn't hire him because something he had said to them was not consistent or something and so they ended up not hiring him for and I was like okay that's weird but whatever right so then he goes to another one in the local area another Sheriff's Department they're like two different counties and so he does that and he says he gets hired okay he starts the training of the Academy training yes and I talked to my brother on a very regular basis we are thickest thieves at this stage of our lives and so he's also cheerleader number I'm cheerleader number one and he's cheerleader number two and he's like you know hey Noah I want to pin you when you finish your academy and Noah was expressing I want you to pin me this would be such an honor but every time we would ask for a date because my brother's like I need to take time off work so that I can travel because he's not living in Georgia still you know he's out of state I don't want it I don't want to know and so then he's like I'll get you the information I'll

35:26get it I'll get it I will let you know I'll let you know never produced it and he's waking up every day putting on his clothes for work and going to this training he wasn't wearing his uniform oh hindtights 2020 we both know where this is coming and I don't like it I know yeah if I was if I was listening to this story I'd be like bitch please you know right but because he said he had a locker at work and he would he didn't want to bring his uniform home sure he would just he would wear his street clothes he would take his work boots with him and he would get dressed in his uniform there and he would do the academy and then he'd come home so he was leaving every day and you're a mom of a new kid and everybody like yeah I think this audience we don't have to worry about with people know how much is going on in your life you don't have time to track every single move especially if you don't have explicit reason right to doubt right yeah especially at that time yeah so then he expresses to me he's about to turn 40 he's like I don't know that I want to be an officer long

36:28forcements of young man's game I don't want to be out there chasing criminals I'm getting too old for this but beggars can't be choosers at some point exactly you have to pay for things and I was saying all those things too you know just this is ludicrous okay so then let's go right so then the narrative was I'm experiencing this midlife crisis yeah no shit my spidey senses are starting to like ring a ding ding ding we've not had a consistent job there's not been a paycheck like they started they paid for training in the academy yes and we had never received a check for that but remember the narrative is that like you know 100% of everything he makes that is attached to his social is going straight to Montana that is like his thing and so when I start really pressing him this is when our interaction starts to change right remember I told you super laid back validated all my feelings anytime there was like a we never fought up until this point there was no fighting if we had a disagreement we were to talk it through validate each other's feelings really be proactive

37:29and be the healthier versions of ourselves because remember we were learning all of these things and we're healing ourselves of our past traumas and so there wasn't any drama but when I started to press him about this employment thing that's when he started changing how he interacted with me because now he's getting defensive um absolutely and one of my main stressors during this time finances right so I'm having these discussions with him impressing about the employment and he's like all you care about is the money what no yeah just shocked my jaw just dropped and I was like I'm not asking for luxury I'm not asking for a million I don't want to be a million I don't pay to more right I want to relaxingly pay our bills without being stressed about it also have dare he with that accusation after years of you being not that way correct no and it was never he was just being defensive and then now it's a matter why right right so it's coming together right and I'm I'm a patient person and I'm a patient and so I'm not patient

38:31state at this point I'm like we're in debt we've borrowed money to move across the country we were struggling to buy food and I skipped a lot of meals to make sure that my children would eat and I was offended because I was like you are reframing this that my basic financial survival that need to just you know like I was only asking we're like barely surviving we're barely chatting water and it's like as if I was being greedy so I kept maintaining life costs money yeah children we need food we need gas for the car we need to pay insurance on the car we need to pay the car payment like we have life costs something yeah his defensiveness is his right by this year like February March I lost my remote job so we're living in a rent free home but we're barely making ends meet as it is because we had gotten behind on some things so we're

39:34trying to get caught up and right as we're getting caught up I lose my remote job the company ended up not going under per se but like they just didn't have you for you anymore probably yeah yeah and so now I'm really panicked my spidey senses are going off and I'm like I am panicked and again I'm a hairdresser but I don't have my hair license in Georgia so when I lost my job I then I duck deep what is Georgia required for me to get my license because now I'm like I got to I got to get a job I can't count on this guy he's fucking weird whatever he's up to and I'm just like I my main priority was my kids at this point I'm like I'm starting to check out I'm starting to like you have to shift your focus and it can't be him right now because he ain't doing it so right so we had all of his kids on our phone plan and made it quite a large bill and so at some point you know you don't pay for a couple months they cut you off so we have no job and we have no

40:39phones and so if I'm not a Wi-Fi I'm like nothing in 1992 on the streets you know like which oh my god awful right because I'm like like there's no people calling me when I'm driving because it's like illegal right when you're trying to find a job too like when you're trying to cut your eyes and ears and in this time frames he started becoming really protective of his phone it was something that was small but I noticed it and if I even got close like so let's say he had his phone on the counter and I was walking into the kitchen till make dinner he would come like sprint over to that phone and grab it so quick and this is when my intuition is just screaming something is wrong and this was at the beginning of 2026 and he was still playing that I'm doing the sheriff's department thing he was having to go to south georgia for training which I thought was weird and he said well now I have to I have to go to Boston for a good evening and I said are you what?

41:40and so why is he going to a convention if he hasn't even passed training yeah that's like I was I was asking all those questions I not only was I asking myself those questions I was asking him and he just was reassuring me like this is just something they do it's a thing I know I'm still no pindate like he hasn't given you or your brother correct yeah yeah I'm final and I knew he was going to Boston because he was showing me a tinierees he was saying that the the department was covering everything and when he came home one of the times the story changed a bit he said that he was no longer working for the the sheriff's office he had instead while he was away in Boston he had interviewed and read and accepted a remote job and so I was like uh okay but my suspicion is still growing I'm still like there why you know but I was upset at that time because now I'm like actually getting upset because I'm like why would you make this decision without even talking to me about it when I've been you know like so supportive talk to me so supportive and then his response was unlike the man I had known and the man I'd married and he said that he wanted to

42:47be able to make decisions as a man without being questioned by his wife and I said whoa no he just only wants to do things that you support and agree with he doesn't want to be accountable right and I said I'm not asking for control over you we're married your employment directly affects our family whether you have your income or not having yeah like I got a horse in this race fella yeah and as a married couple like it's you made a commitment to have a discussion on major decisions anytime you ask for basic needs he turns it on you right and then he would backtrack when I would challenge him on it he'd backtrack and be like I'm sorry he'd validate my feelings you're right I'm just super stressed because he's going through this midlife crisis and I was really trying to engage in conversation like you know get to the bottom of it what is going on are you depressed what is wrong and he's he's like I don't know I feel like I'm going through a midlife crisis and I don't know that I know who I am anymore oh maybe I made a mistake and I was like what do you mean mistake you

43:50mean marrying me do you mean having a child and he would be vague and respond like I don't know maybe I'm sorry what and I challenged along the way like you're an adult you chose to marry me not only did you propose you we got married you chose to marry me you wanted to have this baby that was the decision we made together no one forced you and I started telling them I have started over before and I can do it again like I am not I am not that's not what I want I'm not gonna hold me back to this bullshit right but I had also encouraged therapy maybe need to go to therapy maybe we need to go to couples therapy he seemed open to it and then I started asking him because I had this really strong feeling that he wasn't telling me something and I would say is there something you're not telling me like I feel like you're not being honest with me about something and he'd say like what and I said well if I knew if I knew what would be specific I'd be

44:55really really specific why don't you give me a little hint all right right so that was between the midlife crisis and these conversations we multiple times I had had that and I was also reiterating that I'm not gonna beg you to say if this is not what you want I'm not forcing you here and I'm not begging you to say but I am your wife and I support you know and I you know like willing to help walk you through this you know like that we can walk this path together and you knew it wasn't always going to be right and I knew yes maintained all of that so he had this most recent job it's remote it's in Boston but he had to go for training so he'd been a couple times back and forth and by this point we don't have phone service so I had to be on Wi-Fi and he had to be on Wi-Fi to for us to communicate and it was on Snapchat too because our phones were turned off and I have an iPhone but he doesn't and on iPhones I can I message yeah one on Wi-Fi but I couldn't to him oh my god so June he's gone for weeks at a time and every time he'd be gone for a week

45:59I'm like it's been two weeks since you've been gone and he'd say oh what so communication is becoming worse he's not as responsive he's just attributing it to that he's working he's trying to come home because I'd say when are you coming home when you come you know it's time making money right no money's coming from him nothing's coming to our account by this time by June I was working in another salon and I got my Georgia hair license I start working in the salon and so he'd be gone he was still saying I love yous and these things you know like reassuring I'm trying to come home I'm working on it they want me to stay another week I have these projects the la la la la la and I was expressing how upset I was about you know this is a remote job but yeah that's fine you're spending more time away for a remote job than you are at home and that was really upsetting me it's not like you're in the military it's not like you're in you're not deployed right you're supposed to be working from home so then I'm not a remote job right and I'm starting to feel ghosted by my husband because I'm not hearing from him and I was also being really honest

47:03and saying my mind's going to dark places because now I'm thinking what are the scenarios like there is something off like is he cheating what is he doing in Boston what is happening here and I kept communicating like I need reassurance and I need communication and it was just becoming harder for me because now now I'm starting to feel like a single mom again even though I'm married even though he's you know he's telling me he's trying to get home it's all on me no one in when he was here he was not engaged he was distracted he's stressed and all that kind of stuff and then one of the times he was home I was like I had a vivid dream that you cheated on me and he just was like I would never do that you know whatever do you ever wake up sweaty freezing or just so uncomfortable I definitely wake up sweaty and overheated but it's not a problem when I switched to miracle made sheets the temperature in your bedroom can make or break your sleep miracle made sheets are inspired by NASA technology

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49:09towel set they make an amazing gift and with a 30 day money back guarantee there's no risk that's try miracle dot com slash tdd code tdd a checkout thanks to miracle made for sponsoring this episode this episode is sponsored by better help if you could wake up tomorrow and be better at one thing what would it be for me personally it's being a mom I feel like my son just turned 12 and he is obviously going through so much regarding hormones and you know school and all of these things and I want to be more attentive to him and show him that I'm here for him and doing things like putting down my phone paying attention him being present with him and handling stress with him that's something that I really want to be better at and when I talk to my therapist through better help it is a feeling of relief and I feel supported I feel like my better help therapist really gets me and I can focus on my emotional well-being but also he gives me the tools and resources that can

50:15help me be a good mom he helps me build my confidence in how I'm supporting my child and how I can be there for him and it's really amazing when you have that support by love my current therapist I've been able to talk to several different therapists and then I found one that really really super above and beyond aligns with me and I feel super super comfortable so you can change your therapist at any time which is one thing that I really love as far as feeling the most comfortable with your better help therapist you can sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp dot com slash tdd that's better h-e-l-p dot com slash tdd and so now with force of July so the time period he's home we go to a barbecue he came with me and he ended up leaving early because he said that he was having a siliac reaction and

51:17oh that's an allergy to gluten yeah yes okay yeah from day one he told me I have siliacs disease I mix it hard for eating out and whatnot and whatever so the following weekend you know I'm working on a salon he messaged me there's been a data breach and I have to go to Boston and there was this sense of urgency and I was like again I'm still on the wipe like I'm hitting Wi-Fi hotspots right you have to get paid and these folks are telling you to travel and you're just going right right right exactly and I'm like you know I'm reaching my limit emotionally and I had asked some questions but because I didn't have service when I got back from my break at work I couldn't check any of my messages until I got home while I get home and he's gone and I asked the kids I said where no ago and they said oh he said he needs to go to the work I said did he pack a bag no and I was like okay the communication was kind of lessening in lessen you know like there wasn't a lot of like I couldn't

52:19reach him because he's working and he's working on projects on about two weeks after he'd been gone after that last when he left last I got service back on my phone because I took I'm taking back my finances I'm of course I need a phone and I've been telling him I'm like we need to pay this phone bill I need to have a functioning phone this is unacceptable and he's like I know I'll pay for it I'll pay for it and you know because he's doing all these odd jobs and stuff right along the way but nothing was ever produced of it and so at any rate I have service now but he doesn't so I'm not hounding him by any means but he's not responding when I do get a response he's like you know they have me work on these projects so he's still maintaining that he's working yeah so here's when the bombshell goes down okay I want answers when hoping there's some answers here oh my gosh so the only thing that I'm communicating with him is when are you coming home and he'd say soon soon

53:20soon and I'm like you keep saying that like give me I needed a date I'm you an antennae or I need something like now I'm like he answers are ongoing on the dating objectives right right so I I get I get home from work I see I've missed a couple messages from Sophie that's his daughter his oldest and she's been trying to reach her dad and she had tried to reach out to me like on um she has my phone number but she messaged me like on like social media this fella better have been abducted and is a trafficking victim because literally freak are you right so my daughter comes in she's on the phone with Sophie because they talk a lot right remember they have a bond they're you know like step sisters but they I love it I love it for both of them so she's like I'm trying to get a hold of my dad have you talked to him I had a situation today and I really need to talk to him and all it's like okay you know I said honestly I haven't really heard from him every

54:22time I try to call him he doesn't answer and I'm telling her he's not even home he's out of town working and during this conversation she casually mentions a half brother and I said oh no what half brother and without even skipping a beat she goes well you know I was trying to get a hold of Emma and I'm like who's Emma and she goes well that's his that's Theo's mom who's not wait who's Theo the baby that's why I said the baby this half brother she immediately stopped she knew that when she said that I didn't know and I was like a howl to see and she goes oh I don't know like a year or so now it was like a year and how long have you been together we've been married almost five years oh my god mm-hmm together for six somewhere I've almost been married for five years and I am like

55:23uh what she's like I am so sorry he said you knew but not to bring it up to because it was upsetting for me to talk about and for upsetting for you and I was like um that is so awful did you do your daughter for her what a possession to put her in and so she said well this is why grandma doesn't want to talk to him so I told Sophia I was like you know what she was then then she you know I could I could hear it in her voice she felt bad she felt embarrassed she felt like confused I'm sure and confused that she had just dropped this bomb on me and like she said I knew her to be in and I said it's not your fault the truth always comes out and this is not you're doing this is totally your dad I didn't have a clue is what I told her and so I I handed the phone back to my daughter which I had excused my daughter because I didn't want her to hear that part but I think she kind of heard half brother she heard enough and she's she's sharp okay that one is a sharp one so she

56:23she I think she knew something was up at that point but she had left the conversation I finished my conversation with Sophie and then I gave the phone back and let them finish their conversation and I called up Beverly and she's like hey you know because we then we talked on the phone it was infrequent I you know busy she's always been respectful always love me we've always been great yes great lady and I said I feel a little confused and I hope maybe you can clear some things up for me and I heard her gasp and I said so um Noah has a another child and she said oh my gosh I thought you knew oh my he called me last summer and said I I have this kid I said how old is he and she said I don't know he tells me a different age every time I ask but she's like a year 18 months it's never the same age and so she's filling me in and she's like he called and said I have this kid and I didn't think it was mine but he had to take a paternity test

57:36so his actual trip to see his dying friend was to establish paternity with his child and she's horrified she's like I thought you knew he had said that you're just a really private person they talking about it was upsetting but that we were working through it that was what he had maintained to her and she had said that when he was telling her about this child that he wanted her to video call the child to build a relationship with the kid and she had said absolutely not this is wrong you know what about Emmy she was so sick and was really angry about it and she gave him a piece of remind at that time and while I'm talking to her about it I said who else knows and she said the whole family everyone everyone of his siblings oh my god and yep and everyone thought that I knew and everyone believed that no one I were privately working through this affair and this secret

58:43child so I got off the phone with her I felt like physically sick like not only like I felt like a punch in the gut after talking to Sophie and then I just felt ill and like I could just vomit everywhere so then I I start calling my close friends that I was not being vulnerable with and during the times that I probably should have in the last year and my friends are little investigators and my sister-in-law also she started doing some searching too and she found the paperwork for this paternity because she you know when she had established paternity there was a court hearing so remember he had to go out to Colorado urgently might I add because his dying friend was out there dying and his daughter couldn't take care of him how sad so my first piece of paper trail that she

59:43was trying to get child support for this child so within the first 24 or 48 hours it's kind of it's a blur right like I'm just shell-shock this is beyond my imagination right like I knew there were shenanigans happening but this was not what I imagined at all like this guy's a space cadet when he's at home there's no way there's no way he's had a double life and I even had a neighbor who was like I bet what if he has double life because she was noticing that he was gone a lot and she's like where is he when is he coming back and I'm like I don't know girl I don't even know I'm just I'm just fighting for my life over here you know and so it's funny hindsight's 22 but the the night that I found out so I had spoken to Sophie and I had spoken to Beverly and then I called him and he wasn't answering at first and I was messaging him and there's on snapchat and I said you need to answer me we need to talk right now we need to talk and so he answers and it was a video and I said so what is this about Sophie telling me you have another child and he's like oh it's

1:00:48just some bullshit and I said why why would she lie what she clearly thought that I knew this information there's no reason she would be lying to me and the whole family knows like right now well I didn't tell him this right and I had tried to have much he defend this lie I said Beverly you didn't talk to me and I didn't talk to you and she said understood not a word because now all everything he's ever told me since I find this is a lie yeah in my immediately as soon as I found out about this kid I'm thinking my everything's been a lie everything everything everything and so I pressed him and it was a video call so I could see his body language he was clearly uncomfortable but I was like you need to tell me and he goes well this is something I wanted to say in person but did and my response immediately was when you've been gone for two months like you had plans to come back right what do you plan on coming back and telling me this in person

1:01:50no you need to tell me right now he's waiting to be kicked or 18 oh my god so then he was like okay fine I cheat on you but it was only once and I think okay I have a really hard time believing that it was one time so then I start asking I'm like well who is she she was the nurse at the juvenile detention center I knew it and I said how did it happen he goes well I was initially there for support for her because he was saying he was some sort of support individual at the job so his explanation was well and initially I was just there for support for her and she was married at the time and he's still maintaining we only had sex one time and I said I'm also where did where did you guys go and he was like it was in the car fine why he's like like go ahead and guilt and shame me I'm like first of all if you feel guilt and shame that is you that's five hundred percent and you should so then I asked him when was this child born and he said

1:02:51January of 2023 and I'm 23 so he's three months younger than our child and he said yeah and I'm calm during this call right like I'm not screaming I'm not acting like a crazy person I'm giving him the opportunity to just be honest with me at this point the jig is up I have found out and you need to tell me wait so does that mean that he had gotten her pregnant around the time that you were getting planted get married and then you got married while she was pregnant no no we got pregnant I was pregnant first she got pregnant after me oh oh yeah but this is like after we got married see I'm confused right imagine how you were the point is that your marriage and first baby was happening around the same time we were this woman and I were pregnant at the same time oh I had our baby and three months later she had their baby but at this point I'm so shell shocked by the information I've learned thus far and then I barely get a confession out of

1:03:53the man didn't even apologize just so unremorseful and he ends up ending the call and I'm still trying to just press him for like I deserve to know how long has this been going on yeah have you been visiting this I asked that I said have you seen this child no are you in a relationship with this woman no okay and he goes I've been fighting this for the last year and a half and I said okay so you you didn't think it was your child he goes no I didn't think it was mine but it is mine so he was minimizing everything I just didn't believe him right so then this these mysterious trips to Colorado were making way more sense to me I'm like he wasn't visiting his dead dying co-worker he's fighting paternity or maybe he's in a full-blown relationship with this woman right like and one of my skills from previous marriage was reading between the lines which is not like a healthy thing but like I learned to read between the lines because that was the dynamic right and that's how not narcissists behave that way because if they don't fully confess to the truth they're not admitting

1:04:57fault right yeah right that you know if you can fill in the blanks yourself they don't have to confess to their sins or they don't have to be 100% honest right so after that phone call where he minimized to you know he tells me but it was like that wasn't like I deserve so much more of an explanation and he was just kind of like you need to like he just had this he his it turned it was like night and day difference last week he was like oh I love you and then I find this information and now he's completely turned on me cold calculated so this is when I start telling myself he didn't just have sex with her one time they they had an affair they were sneaking around she was married she is now divorced but after talking to my friends and family out there in Colorado who do a little investigating they found her name they found her address they found her telephone number and I called her well they mess it one of my one of my dearest friends did message her and she

1:06:08was very pragmatic about it you know she's just like I am writing this I have no judgment towards you I have no will towards you whatever Noah is telling you is not the truth it is lie whatever you have heard about this situation and she kind of spelled it out right like yeah me is by herself thinking he's out of town working he has not asked about Lucy that's our baby's name oh and we are just trying to film blanks of information if you want to reach out to me you can that's this kind of like there was a lot more she was really kind and you know just yeah just not judgmental right you know woman to woman and they had found an email address but it didn't go through and then she messaged one of the numbers that had come up when they were looking her up and she had responded with do not contact me and so you know like all right well and then so then this is where I'm like you know because I'm trying to piece

1:07:11you know now I'm like now I'm playing detect me yeah yeah now I'm like where are you really and I had pressed him for his location and he's still is maintaining he's in Boston but then he started sending me emails like almost exactly around the time that these messages from my friends were gone of course that I'm like no he's right there he's right there he's reading what she's getting and he is totally in control of whatever that narrative is and I just want him to tell me the truth because I've already now decided nothing has been real since day one and I'm trying to get him to tell me and to just just tell me you have nothing to lose like if you've already decided I'm divorcing you you need to just tell me you have nothing else to lose because now I'm replaying everything every job every trip every story of an explanation about his ex-wife every financial crisis every red flag that was rationalized and he kept saying I don't want to argue about this it's in the past like this might be the past for you but this is fresh for me and I deserve answers I deserve

1:08:19respect I deserve an apology because at this point he still hasn't apologized there was nothing no remorse no nothing and so the little gears are turning like has he even had a job since we moved to Georgia has it has there a this is my mind has there even been a job you know I don't know what was real and what wasn't when was the last time that you have seen any money or like a pay check from him it was in 2024 before we left for for Georgia oh my god and that was the last time we filed our taxes and every time I asked him for W2 I'll get it to you I'll get it to you and initially when I when I found this information out I I felt a lot of guilt and shame how did I get here again like what how is this my life and my reality again with a man child right and I'm comparing notes with his mom she's like I don't think that he has silly x disease he had never mentioned silly x disease until you guys were together and I was just like oh my god you know so like now even more unraveling like right like I'm like everything was a lie everything from day one

1:09:23because he wanted something to use as an excuse medically to get out of some I guess I guess I what about when your brother took him to that test he dropped him off at the didn't he drive him to the hotel to oh my god I have no idea I mean maybe he was meeting up but I don't know like that you know everything everything was questioning you know like not a clue not a clue and my friend Claire when I tell her this bombshell she's like he mirrored you from the beginning and I said what you know he's empathetic he's adventurous he's oriented he's a dreamer he's family focused he's hardworking all the qualities that mattered deeply to me that you know you were looking for what what part of Noah was actually Noah and how much of it was fabricated or specifically for me was the biggest mind-fuck of the whole experience right like an affair is devastating enough the

1:10:24the level of betrayal there but this was like is this person even who he says he is like this is fabrication what you're describing is a different type of dark personality than your first husband and that we've talked about this with Dr. Romani Der Vassula I don't know if you've heard of her but we talked her on our patreon and she's a narcissist expert and we asked her why do a lot of people get into second relationships with narcissists because that really makes people feel stupid because they're like I thought I knew how to defend myself against this and she was like there's so many different types and this guy was so good at giving you what you wanted meeting your unmet needs we talked about a lot and it looked different than before and it was covert right like he knew he knew what I like you said he knew what I went through with my ex-husband and he knew all these things and like he played a part and it's just been it's just been wild and so I tell

1:11:33my closest my very closest to your friends this information and I'm like I have to tell my kids and I said no I'm not at home and this isn't the life he wants anymore and I don't have a lot more information is basically what I said and immediately my daughter starts to cry and she's trying to hide it from me and I'm like talked to me and she's like I am just so mad for you and for Lucy and I knew this was going to happen I never I never trusted him and I said what? mind you she was five when I met Noah and she said I didn't know how to explain to you that I didn't trust him you were so happy and I didn't I didn't know how to tell you know I was like I am so sorry that you had to live with that feeling and I told them I want you to talk to me if

1:12:39you're feeling some strong feelings I want you to be able to feel like you can come to me and talk to me and not everything was bad we had happy years the first several years it was happy and because I'm a positive person I'm like you know let's not everything was bad right we did have happy years we did go on adventures we did learn things he may be this imaginary human he is not who he said he was but I'm taking that not all things were bad because in the end I was being genuine and I was I was learning things and I was growing and I told my kids I didn't want them to erase every positive memory simply because this awful thing was happening right it doesn't have to all be bad right but what's your like plan and it's so soon so if you don't have a full plan well I have a question I am I'm going to file for divorce but here's the thing that I you know my theory I think he was hoping that if he disconnected himself that I'd just say you know what dude don't even come home

1:13:43and divorce on different terms but now I have evidence that not only did he have an affair he had a child as a result of that affair and I can ask for a hell of a lot more in a divorce with infidelity and I have a paper troll you have that paternity paperwork I don't know how much money he's making but they will find you know so I have the form I have to fill out the divorce decree and I already know that I need like hours of my time to fill this out because it is treacherous and it is time consuming and so that's actually my goal for this weekend I you know I'm oh filling that stuff out I'm you know I need to fill out I in in the state of Georgia you can you can open up a child support case without actually being divorced so I can open up that case and maybe they can track him down as far as a job so curious to hear where his money has been going

1:14:45I mean I'm sure we all have guesses but I'm like did he have any money like I don't know what he's been doing all this time other than cheating yeah so that's crazy yeah if he has a separate bank account that if he because if the if in fact you know because if it's not everything he said it was a lie right so what the percentage of truth was of everything he's ever said to me and everything he ever was there's some truth to some of it right but if he's getting a paycheck which he most likely is getting something because there's at this point I'm like there's no way they're taking a hundred percent maybe 60 percent maybe but not a hundred percent he's hiding money from me then but does he have a job is he getting paid you know those are the things that I don't have answers for and if you're comfortable updating us I would be interested I was told how you and your kids and family are doing because what a journey so in the last two weeks I've told you Beverly

1:15:49and I've been really we've been talking she's checks on me every day every other day and she's I love her and you know my sister-in-law checks in on me my another my other sister-in-law she checked in on me and all of them they have all turned their backs on him and before I spoke to you know for the intake call Noah re-added me on Snapchat remember I told you he removed me oh why and I had just I had just said to my friend the day prior I am already coping ahead and mentally preparing myself for the event that he tries to return and ask for forgiveness you up and left your child like you're not getting back and I'm and that's the thing and I'm just like does he not know that I am I have a PhD in this shit right like I know how to gray rock things I'm in the mode of I've done this before dude you know so when I saw that request I I because I had

1:16:54just been telling my friend and she goes yeah I can't wait to see you laugh in his face and I said oh I'm gonna send a video or like a voice recording you know how you can hit the voice and record an audio I would be like I'm audibly going to laugh in his face when he is coming back you know crawling back. Small pleasures small pleasures right and then I get that request and I was like wow I like I was shocked it was that quick but like I haven't even accepted I haven't accepted it is just sitting there just sitting there. Well I vote for keeping that request sitting there because it's your turn to focus on you again. I think no response is worse than like a yeah that's so loud silence is loud that is that is where I'm at 1000% for sure and my friend immediately emailed you guys about my story and we both were kind of like we'll see if anything comes of it right because the biggest part of the betrayal was that he intentionally and calculatedly

1:18:00he chose this he knew how much it would hurt me and he did it anyway like what you know and so for me it's like I know I'm not alone I know that I'm not the only person going through this and I think that it's important for women to you know like he checked off all the boxes he was a totally normal dude his family was a great you know like his family is great like all these things but there were small inconsistencies over time but even though he had an explanation for everything I think it's important that if you feel like something is off you don't dismiss them dig deeper really like why do I feel this way because I'm because he were you saying the women tuition what what did you say? Fem tuition never need to be fem tuition never need to be never need to be never need to be evidence and I think that we always want it right we always want to be just because I'm at I'm

1:19:05evidence based I wanted evidence before saying anything but if it can help just even one person to if you if you are noticing small inconsistencies like do even if you don't even if you don't have to take action right away like your fem tuition can give you the the beginning of information gathering before you start accusing like you have to accuse right away because very rarely they can be like oh yeah that's you got me right right right kind of setting things aside and starting the process of protecting yourself and protecting your heart breaks my heart is also that he's just going to do this again like even if he goes to this other one yeah I mean now he has another child who's about the same age and you know like very confusing very damaging and had I not experienced if I had the my first marriage I don't know that I'd be this calm and resolved and you know you will survive right you've done it and you know because when I told my brother his betrayal you know he

1:20:07feels just as betrayed the same level of correct yeah and he has said to me like if you if you weren't this calm I don't know it's keeping me grounded because he feels just as betrayed it's just as deep for him all of the time and money and everything that he invested into Noah that it's you know like he was he said I would I would have considered him a close friend like my brother in law and my close friend and now we're question who is this person he's never been this person he's just pretend he's been playing a part and karma's gonna get him yeah so talking to to Claire she's like let's get you into therapy and I was like yeah I probably should have started after my first divorce because you think that you're healed you think that you move past and learn things and just also like the faith and humanity of like this seemed like a really solid dude and

1:21:09well Amy even if you are healed and have learned things it's not your fault that that happened and I understand the feeling of like this is really fresh thank you for talking to us so soon I know I can't believe how fresh you're welcome no me neither I honestly I think it's good timing because it's easier for me to recount sure all of this information because I feel like this is a very traumatic experience and oh yeah I don't know what I might remember in a few months of just the details well because there's so much that you're in taking right now it's like you're trying to make room for everything and it you have to a little bit as to absorb so that morgan come in and it's a lot right now so you're still in limbo like you have no idea how do you feel emotionally towards him like do you feel heartbroken or mad or what are your feelings now it has been mad yeah because when I initially find this out my first question was how long was he gonna drag me along

1:22:09how long was he just not gonna come home for you know like if I hadn't found this out when how long would he have gone on for I couldn't wrap my head around it because he's been gone for two months now like how long how much longer if I didn't know this information how much longer was he gonna let me just sit here yeah yeah how how long was this just guessing when he's coming right how long was gonna go on but I've radically accepted I may never know the whole story but I think he was trying to do both and he did it horribly and I don't think he anticipated what has transpired in the last couple weeks and well they have that inflated sense of self he thought he could get away with anything yeah for sure and as it turns out it works to my advantage and I will fully exploit it and you know I'm probably gonna ask for way more than what I would normally ask for as far as like divorce and just for pain and for apparent time he says you only care about the money okay

1:23:13now I care about the money watch so remember we've we've borrowed money and the people we've borrowed money from you know like you don't owe me money he owes me money and I said wait till I'm divorced from him and then you can go after him on a judgment because that will follow him for 10 years and you can know it very easily please keep us updated as well I will heal and all of our love to the kids and you and your family and not to him and yes thank you truly like this will help other people and it is hopefully healing to put it all out there yeah I definitely I want to keep you guys updated because my goal is literally this weekend to get that divorce paperwork filled out and I'm just gonna print off my little evidence because I've got that previous attorney case thing to well that's gonna be very telling when you go to court because the court's gonna compel him to share his employment history his employment information so he'll be compelled to share that and he'll have to so then we're really gonna get some answers there oh my god okay this is what

1:24:19I'm saying I did not expect there would be another child like I need her for sure maybe another relationship but I I don't know why that threw me off but I think it's because you know how like she I think that she thought she knew how to spot a narcissist because of her ex yeah we talked about it a little with her but yeah it's almost like and I'm sure people can relate to this you come out of a bad relationship and you're like I've learned from it and you yeah you have and yet there's almost this false sense of security coming out of it because you're still maybe susceptible to a different kind of narcissism or abuse or any kind of mistreatment and it's like oh it's so hard because then you feel even worse I was thinking it would be maybe good to go through the different types of narcissists yes I'm on the family institute at Northwestern universities website north-western great school I trust them but we've talked about this before but I just feel like

1:25:24people don't we throw around the word narcissist all the time it's very popular in social media and it's not even like a label we're diagnosing what it really is is a scale like I I'm like all of us have tendencies that could align with a narcissistic personality it doesn't mean that we are like diagnosed narcissists you know it's like it's all a scale so there's different kinds and different levels of impact and at the end of the day the label doesn't matter it's the behavior that is important in the impact that's important so but let's just like go through a little bit so the first is malignant narcissist this form takes this is from this is a quote this form takes the grandiose narcissist it adds a more exploitative antagonistic Machiavellian and at times seemingly psychopathic overlay malignant narcissists drive people to the edge and leave them feeling betrayed fearful manipulated tricked and devastated so this is often referred to as the dark triad it's like

1:26:25psychopathy so psychopath Machiavellianism which is just like that manipulative like Machiavell you know the guy that did the wars and stuff yeah yeah narcissism and sometimes sadism so they get like pleasure out of it yeah lock it really enjoy it sometimes these are often very charming people it's it's an extreme it's an extreme extreme case these are yeah these are great these are the big big bad wolves since yeah yeah so that's big bad one communal narcissists are very engaged in the community so this is the person that maybe is like posting online about all the ways that they're changing the world they really need to feel like they're the savior that they're maybe superior to people because they do work for the less fortunate but in doing that their brain is positioning them as better than other people you know and they need a lot of validation so you know they're not

1:27:26hey if they're doing community service I guess I don't care where you why you're doing it it's nice that you're doing it but you're not doing it for the right reasons you know yeah they're I see what you're saying they want that kind of oh good on you and they're like look at what I did look at what I do they want to show off for themselves or something yeah and also this says that they derive a sense of self from the idea of being a giver but they are also incredibly entitled about it like they don't actually have a lot of empathy they just are like you should you should be thanking me why aren't you thanking me like I deserve it they amazing yeah that makes total sense so that's an interesting one neglectful narcissists don't engage with anyone unless they want something from you I feel like I've met these people oh so they like they'll like go shoot go shoot for a while and then all the set in there come back and they're like oh hey girl like they want to hook up or they need money or something literally it's somebody who doesn't really have genuine connections unless there's something to gain yeah okay yep not a fun way to live in my

1:28:29opinion I agree I agree okay but nine narcissists often exhibit a lack of empathy entitlement and grandiosity however others experience their lack of empathy as being clueless their entitlement is being clumsy and their group grandiosity as being childlike so these people it's saying like these are the individuals that only talk about themselves and they make everything about them and they have the superficial immaturity that kind of like gets a lot of attention like they need a lot of attention but they're not necessarily harmful entitled narcissists I feel like there might have been some of that I don't know entitlement is visible in the behavior of others and is the belief that we deserve special treatment without cause or reason okay okay that's just a definition of entitlement so true that's purely entitled to get that so yeah this is a self-righteous person it you know they have

1:29:31this idea that rules do not apply to them and their view of the world is always right that's what they operate with and then the next one is generational or cultural narcissist this type of narcissist is one of the most difficult to describe even in the consideration of it being a form of narcissism narcissism narcissism so this is sometimes like if your parent looks or acts narcissistic and you learn it through them it influences your behaviors so it's like an intergenerational pattern which is sad because you know that's not your fault necessarily and some of these narcissistic traits are the same as saying you're trying to ask a zebra to have spots instead of stripes like some of them are baked into your personality which doesn't mean you can't work on it but it it isn't easy to change but this one I think is very much a learned behavior like learned entitlement learned social status learn manipulation it's a reflection

1:30:34of how you grew up so that's that yeah I wanted to ask you misprieved and vise the gator another thing that came up on the latest podcast episode I just mentioned is talking about how spotting lies it's important to focus on what is verifiable and what is not and I felt like a lot of what he shared in his story it's not really a verifiable lie right so you have to choose whether you want to believe it or not because you're not going to get evidence out of that right but there were some things that I wanted to ask you if there are ways to verify them such as the hospital debts like if somebody claims that their checks are being garnished to pay off like I honestly was like getting confused the way he explained it like what do you do if someone tells you about that is there anything you can do to try to find information about this debt um you can so it's a matter this is where social engineering comes in because you're not allowed to call a hospital they can't

1:31:34tell you any information there's but there's all this stuff but if it's gone to a debt collector and you say hey I want to pay this bill they're going to give you any information you want so to get the bill paid right so if you talk to them in the right way there are ways to what we call pretext or pretend you're something you're not to get information this is where cops are different than private investigators cops are not allowed to get that information that way that's called illegal improper illegal obtaining of evidence or whatever but we are not legally allowed to either as civilian so we are not encouraging this we're just talking about it absolutely I'm not encouraging it but there is a way that you can do a little bit of social engineering and say the things that make somebody go oh you want to pick because bill the people that do the bill collecting they get they have their job because they're good at collecting money so the more they collect money

1:32:35the better so if you call the bill collector and you say hey I have this bill that needs to be paid but this is it's this much money and it's a hundred and fifty thousand dollars or however much he said and then she's like well really it's just eleven dollars or whatever like then you know oh do you know what I mean like there's you'll know if it's right or whatever and then you'll be like well he said it was a hundred grand but really it's only you know twelve dollars then you know he's lying or what if they like look it up and they're just like I don't have record of this yeah then you then you know there's there's nothing like there's what do you do you know what I mean like there's if there's no way if they're saying no this is not accurate then there's nothing there then you know he's lying it's so and then what is he oh I mean you don't want to live your life being like oh you're going to visit your friend with cancer what hospital is yet yeah like you don't want to be the person that's asking all those questions but at the same time it's like the right person who's not hiding anything isn't going to be

1:33:35mad that you're asking those I don't think they'll be like you know what this is like it's really shitty but also it's just saying you want to sunflowers yep that too that see that social engineering that's something that you can pretext and by the way whenever we get compelled in a court room to tell how we obtain the information that's called work product we don't have to provide that whereas law enforcement has to provide a chain of evidence how they came into it how they who's hand by hand you know we don't have to do that so that's where that's where it varies but there are ways to verify you just have to be really really savvy basically man I feel like now she and her friends are on the case and as she goes through the next process of divorce and obtaining you know retribution she what happens in the dark will come into the light she'll find out and she said I mean to the extent that she's comfortable we are so open to updates so if we get updates maybe we'll share them on patreon I just know they're gonna come up with something because

1:34:40you know girls we don't stop no she's got a good crew that was really special to hear about and I I felt for so much when she was talking about how she was like I wasn't as vulnerable with the people in my life as I should have been like I totally get that feeling of not wanting to admit what's going on and not wanting to feel like you're a burden like not wanting to feel like woe is me you guys woe is me like you want to look like you're like a strong person and probably yeah and you don't sometimes we don't want to admit that things aren't as great as we put them out to be then we feel shame around that well she's a good mom and should be proud of the way she's navigating this for her kids and for herself so we're all in her corner and I think as sucky as it is I'm glad she's but also I want to know from our audience who is on team Emmy or Emma the other girl oh yeah the other baby mama yeah like did she do obviously she has

1:35:45the right to just not say anything right but also should she have said like should she have gone you know sorry like should she have said something I don't know I don't know I think my thing is always like you're your personal safety and your children's safety is first so if there's some part of the situation that's like she feels threat no she doesn't want anything to do with this guy or whatever like we don't know that but if not and she's just being kind of petty and like cheated on her husband with this guy and I don't know like yeah there could definitely be a case of okay that's not ideal you're not being a girl school yeah there's definite and there's no law like there's no rule that you have to be a girl's girl but also don't be a dick you know what I mean yeah come on don't be a dick well I love me and we will pass along any support that you sent her um if you know what it feels like to have to you know tell your kids what's going on and

1:36:47oh that was so hard thing to hear and sending her a lot of love and all of you a lot of love for what I'm going to do I think the mama part is the hardest because like the little one doesn't even know the little one's just like one four this is fine what's going on I don't know and that really sucks because how do I walk away from your kid how do you walk away from your kid that drives me nuts I don't understand and she said she was like it's a lot easier for him to do it than for the woman to do it and also how shitty for the older daughter the older daughter like she's the one who spilled the beans and I think she might have I think I think something in her too that wanted it that wanted to that wanted to say something I think she felt it was the right thing to do but also like it's just not fair to her at all no as an 18-year-old 19-year-old whatever age she is she's so young and in such a bad position that I'm sad that he I blame him completely for putting her in that position and lying to everyone it is not fair oh I hope that

1:37:50oh Beverly Queen oh grandma yeah mom said mom said this boy this boy is your decadent not the man I raised I love that and she's being good to the grandkids even the ones that are not biologically hers she's like I love that I love that I love that good for her family can come in all different sizes and shapes and colors and it's beautiful that it's chosen because that sometimes it's not that it means more it's just like even it's powerful in a different way that they can choose to stay with each other absolutely there's something to be said for that you know y'all text people that you love right now that's your homework just check check in with the friend you haven't talked to in a minute and just be like hey I was thinking of you because you never know who needs to vent or who needs you in there yeah 100% well that was I mean not a good story but a wild story yeah thank you guys for listening and give her as much support as you know

1:38:56as you can we she would obviously really appreciate it just considering that it's still so fresh and if you have a story you can email us investigate at the dating detectives podcast.com whether it's long or short or a roommate and tick one or a friend or whatever sometimes we read stories on patreon that are not like completely aligned with our premises of show we don't care if it's a good story that's important we want to talk about it send us what's happened I like a love story send me a happy love story yeah I need it to always be sad thank you thank you very much I kind of like to get love stories so do I so you can send them love you and love you Mackenzie I love you and as always trust trust your intuition