Talk Of The Neighborhoods

0:00Good evening. You're watching Talk of the Neighborhood on BNN. I'm your host, Kristen Halbert, filling in for Joe Heisler. You're also listening to us on WBCA 102.9 FM. That's Boston's Community Radio Station. We'll be talking black journalism this evening with Yaulu Miller and Adrian Walker. So stay tuned. Thanks for joining us.

1:02We're so excited this evening to have Yaulu Miller of the flip side, but formally or actually currently still with Bay State banner as well as the Dorchester reporter, as well as Adrian Walker, columnist, and associate editor over at the Boston Globe. Thank you guys so much for being here. Thanks for having us. So tonight, we're going to be discussing a little bit about black journalism, and you two have been covering the black communities of Boston for a number of decades. I'm just so excited to see what you've seen, what you think is coming, and where we are right now. Ready? Absolutely. Let's go. Let's do it. All right, so first of all, I just want to know what got you guys into journalism? Like, what made you choose writing besides any other way to share stories with people? Yaulu. OK. My father and my uncle started a newspaper in 1965.

2:02I was in an English major in college. He never studied anything else. I always loved reading. I thought I wrote somewhat well until I actually started trying to do journalism in high school. And fortunately, he was able to work on a college newspaper. They helped me get up my writing speed and I took a year off from college. And during that year, I was a like a cub reporter. Like, I did like a few months at the banner and just really enjoyed it. So when I graduated, there was a job waiting for me. Oh, lucky you. I don't think that happens to a lot of people. You're not one. But Adrian, how did you get started? Well, it was not my family business, I have to say. No, I sort of fell into it. I started in journalism in high school. With no fluff, I would be a journalist as a grownup. And then I'd drifted back into it halfway through college and just fell in love with it. I got my first job at a paper in Miami, my hometown, and then three years later, I came to the club.

3:04Tell me about those early stories that you were writing for the club, especially coming from out of town. Oh, wow. Well, you know, I started out as a general assignment reporter so I was doing a lot of crime. It was a period, I started in 89. And so it was a high crime period. After a few months, I started covering the cross-stored murder case, which was quite an introduction to the city, and the Boston Journalism. And after a few years of that, I'd drifted into politics. Y'all were you around the same time earlier, later? I'm a little older than you, y'all, actually. Yeah. Now, as I was in college during the year, when the Stuart case happened, thankfully, because I meant that I didn't, I mean, actually, I got stopped by police many times before that, and also in New Hampshire, in college, I got stopped by police a number of times, mistaken for other people, et cetera. But I think the Stuart case was particularly difficult for black men, including many, who've gone on to become police officers, city counselors,

4:05et cetera, et cetera. So I missed it. Well, what was one of those first stories that you covered where you were like, I'm so glad I'm here, I'm doing this? Bruno Conner had me interview. Brian O'Connor was the managing editor of the banner in the 80s into the early 90s. He had me interview some attorneys with the American Friends Service Committee who had gone to, on a fact, finding mission to Palestine, occupied territories. And he had me interview them. And it was interesting to me, at that time, Jesse Jackson had met with the PLO and had drawn the ire of APAC and Abraham Foxman, et cetera. And so that was an interesting introduction into Middle East politics. And I covered some political stories and got to cover stories of the state house and city hall and sort of see how things worked. It was really how I learned civics was through journalism.

5:06So when we think back to the 80s and 90s, it was a long time ago. Not too long, but yes. Brian O'Connor sent me into Agas Highland Tap to cover a, which was a, was a new dancing establishment in Dudley Square to cover protests against people who wanted it, you know, for people who wanted it shut down. I went to a lot of places I wouldn't ordinarily go as you know, because I was a journalist. OK, well outside of one of the most sensational murder cases, like known in Boston and across the country, honestly, what were some of the early stories that really stood out to you as young journalists up here? Well, it was a period where there was a lot of anxiety about crime. Most, too, a lot of stories about stopping frisk, about police stopping kids on the street, things like that. And almost immediately started doing some politics, too,

6:09because city hall seemed to sort of touch everything. So I began doing some of those stories as well. Tell me a little bit more about those stories, because you're right. City hall definitely does touch everything. And again, you came from Miami, man, like this man who was here already. Ray Flynn was the mayor I started with. And Ray was a piece of work, you know, and the great thing about covering Flynn was that he was so spontaneous, you know. You never knew what you would do. You never knew what he would say. And he seemed to be everywhere. You go to shootings and he was there. You know, you never see a mayor that's shooting now, you know. Yeah. I'd go to a shooting and Flynn would tell me who the suspect was and when they thought to get him and you know, all kinds of stuff. So wow, we have definitely changed. And I remember coming up, coming up from Miami, I was like, the mayor has some stories. The mayor was never in a story of a cent. He had Miami, you know. Oh, okay, well besides how the stories may have changed from time to time,

7:10you guys have also been in your newsrooms that you're associated with for quite a number of years. And right now we can see that they're shifting significantly, not even just in the way that things are becoming more digital, but also in the makeup of a newsroom or even how long that someone stays inside there. What are some of the ways that you've seen shifts either at the banner or the globe? Well, at the globe it's always been challenging. I mean, diversity has always been a challenge to begin with because there were always a lot of people who were reluctant to move to Boston. I remember when I came, you know, my friends were calling me and saying, black people don't move to Boston, black people move out of Boston, you know. So there's always been that. And it's always just been a challenging environment to work in. And as you say, everything's changed. I mean, the newsroom itself has gotten smaller, which means there's fewer jobs, there's fewer openings. And it's all sort of harder than navigate in a way if it was 30 years ago. Yeah, would you feel the same way for the banner? Absolutely.

8:11When I started at the banner in the 80s, as a cup reporter, it was a managing editor, three full-time reporters, two or three full-time reporters, just, you know, much larger staff. And by the time I assumed the role of managing editor in 1996, it was like, you know, me, one or two other journalists, and then, you know, relied a lot more on freelancers. And, you know, the advertising revenue shrink when Craigslist came out, you know, you kind of lost your classifieds. It's the back of the paper, which was like, real estate ads, help wanted ads. It went from, you know, 12, 15, 16 pages down to, like, you know, four pages if you're lucky. And that loss of advertising revenue had a significant effect on journalism at every level, the local papers. And there were more local papers, there were more vibrant, you know, the local papers hired reporters

9:13and actually did real reporting. And we've seen that shrink a lot in Boston. Actually, let's stay on that for a second, because I am curious, that was something that people would turn to the paper for. Even if you weren't reading the articles, you're getting a job, you're getting a home. So, who do you think is really picking up the papers right now? Do you think it's still the same full general public or is it a little bit more narrow or even wider? I think it's skews older that people, my age and older tend to read papers. I confess, I don't get the globe or the herald in paper, I read them online in the New York Times as well. So, I'm, you know, guilty part of that. You know, and that's, you know, so, I'm not seeing the display ads that these newspapers, the globe, the herald, the New York Times, that's where most of their money comes from. That's the business model for journalism since the mid-1800s.

10:15And, you know, I'm guilty of upending that business model myself as well as, I would say, a victim of that trend. But yeah, when I, before I started my online publication, I pulled people about 100, 110 people and about 28% like still read print and 28% listen to the radio, like larger percentages get their news from the internet, which means like stuff that gets shared on Facebook or what have you, so that. One thing I'll say about that though, so the business model has changed, you know? Yes, the ads have gone away, but the globe has over 200,000 digital readers. They're paying too. So, you know, in a way we've gone from being funded by our advertisers to being funded by our readers. Yeah, and what of that is healthy because it removes some of the pressure to keep advertisers happy? The globe in the New York Times, I think the New York Times can totally survive

11:17off of their paid subscribers. And the globe, I think, is very close to that point. My understanding, or they've passed that point where they could survive without a print edition, but, you know, it's still a hit though, and it's not what it was in the 80s or 90s, in terms of the number of staff, the number of resources. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, when something really interesting or cool comes out, I'm still a person that's gonna go and get the print edition, just the hold on to it, just to like, have it physically inside my hands. Oh, sure, I love the print edition. Yeah, but otherwise, you're right. I'm also a digital reader, but I also really enjoy when I'm seeing short video clips, also when I hear things on the radio. Great time to remind everybody that you are listening to us on WVCA 202.9 Boston's Community Radio Station, in addition to watching us over here on VNN. Now, both of you have been able to, you know, occasionally appear on TV like you are right now,

12:19as well as be on the radio, as well as right. Do you think that there is a way that people are more interested or willing to get their news right now, if they're not in too long for a rating? I mean, people get their news from all kinds of places now, you know, they get their news from the internet, they get their news from TikTok, they get it from a lot of, a lot of, there are so many ways to get it now. Which is annoying because people will come to you with a story and you're like, this is not a journalist. This, like, if you look at this website, it's not a real news website. Like, you Google it, it doesn't exist anywhere, except on your Instagram feed. It's not a real story. Like, the amount of, like, pink slime, like stories that are out there, etc., like, it's worrying because, you know, with all the faults of the corporate news media,

13:19the weekly newspapers, all the bias, etc., like, now that it just feels like the Wild West when people are scrolling through social media feed and seeing, you know, stuff that's masquerading is news that's just clickbait. Well, look, I mean, you see a perfect example of an Minnesota, right, with the hysteria about Somalis and fraud and all of that was driven by a guy where the camera claiming he was a journalist, but he wasn't. None of the stuff in his video is true. But, you know, the sort of the guardrails are kind of gone. So what do you make us a distinction between someone who's reporting news versus someone who is just a content creator inside of perhaps the political realm? Like, what do you look for? Well, the most important thing I look for is accuracy, you know? And, you know, are there standards for accuracy? And are there ways that you vet your stuff? Same. Yeah, I mean, when somebody represents a news organization, then they have a vested interest in getting things right,

14:22you know, because you could either lose your job or lose your readers, lose your credibility, like, you know, your word counts for a lot as a journalist. And when you violate basic principles, like, and that's your career, that's what you do for a living, you know, you're really gonna, you know, damage yourself. So I look for, you know, what's sort of behind the person or, you know, sometimes, you know, oftentimes, there are content creators who are, who, you know, like, you follow what they say and then read, you know, other stories and, like, you know, they're accurate. Then, I mean, it's not everybody has to represent a news organization or be backed by a news organization. There are a lot of people who do blogs or what have you. They don't have the same high standards, but, you know, sometimes, you know, people who are not affiliated with news organizations can do some really great work as well. So it's kind of case by case basis.

15:24And I think when you read a lot of news and consume a lot of news, whether you're a journalist or just a news consumer, you learn how to sort of that, like, your sources, the sources that are giving you news. Oh, that's a really good point. I also wanna bring up the fact that a lot of these content creators, especially the video-based ones, they tend to be a lot more diverse than you see in a current or even traditional newsroom. There, see, because there is so much more diversity right now in that digital space, do you wish that there was more diversity in your newsroom or do you wish that there was more legitimacy and rigor inside of that digital space? Well, I've always wished there was more diversity in the newsroom. And whether there's more diversity in the ways you get your news, it's kind of, you're selecting what you look at. I mean, believe me, there are plenty of people getting their news from TikTok, we're not getting it, from particularly diverse sources. So, I mean, I don't think that's just a given. It's true for some people. Both, yeah.

16:24I mean, I would love to see more diversity in mainstream news. What worries me is every time a journalist and professor comes and says, like, come talk to my class, oftentimes you're in a room and there's absolutely like zero black people in that room. You know, maybe like a couple of Asian kids and, you know, you just don't see many black kids going into it. And I think that when you enter the news profession, you almost have to, I mean, especially at the beginning, it's like you have to take a vow of poverty or you have to have parents who are going to bankroll you while you scrape by. If you have really high student loans, which wasn't quite a thing when you and I graduated in college, it makes it make it very difficult to break into that into the news business. And market like Boston where you need to be making somewhere

17:25in the neighborhood of $100,000 to like live reasonably well. It's just the barriers to entry are really difficult. And even, you know, even when you go to journalism classes and talk to these kids, what I always keep in mind is that the statistic, that 15% of the people who graduate with degree in journalism are working in journalism a year later. And then, so, you know, just to really sort of narrow funnel through which people get into journalism. Some of that's always been for that. I mean, I don't want to say here's the old guy who's just, everything's just going down the drain. I mean, I have positive questions. It's over there, more than half of the people I studied journalism with didn't end up going into journalism, you know. They ended up going into public relations, many of them, some of them ended up going into politics, you know, they ended up doing a bunch of things. They used those skills, those writing skills,

18:26those critical thinking skills in different ways, you know. I went to school, I met people who didn't end up in a newsroom. Like 15%? That's, probably not saying it has involvement, but yeah. But you two were part of that 15%. You did end up in a newsroom. I didn't do journalism school, but yeah. Well, you went to a fancy Ivy League school that, you know, they pursued more high-minded, it had a daily newspaper. It had a daily newspaper. It was my journalism school. We'll give that to you. I'm just teasing. But also, because you guys ended up being journalists and covering Black Boston for so long, there must have been stories that were important to be told that maybe we're not going to be told unless you guys were actually there to cover them. Do you feel the same way? Yeah, absolutely. I've done plenty of stories that probably wouldn't have been in the globe if I hadn't been around to write them. And even the ones that would have been, were done in a different way,

19:26because they were done by somebody like me. It actually, it absolutely affects the way coverage happens. I mean, the banner is known for what the banner does. Is what the banner does. Do you think that it's the same? Because the banner has a more diverse newsroom at the moment than it might have previously had. Do you think that there's a difference in the reporting that we're doing in the community, depending on who's doing the reporting? I think it's the mandate for the banner, like the mission, as well as for the flip side, is to present news of interest to communities of color. The banner when it started, you know, was the black community. I think there were very few Latino or Asian people in the city, I think it was less than 1% in 1965 when the banner started. There was, you know, to present news also from a perspective, from the perspective that captures what black people

20:29are thinking, their values. I think we pivoted away from covering crime as, like, in terms of, like, incidents of crime and more toward, like, criminal justice policy. I mean, certainly in the 60s, 70s, 80s, white people's view of the black community was not complimentary. I remember as a kid, you know, my parents got Boston Magazine the best of Boston. They consistently listed Roxbury as the worst neighborhood in Boston. And I- Impossible. I, it bothered me, you know, and, you know, you kind of understood like that. Mike Barnacle was one of the most popular writers in Boston. He was a brilliant writer. I used to read his stuff. I read it as fiction. Folks in the black community used to complain and say, like, look, I called the globe. Like, I was there at this incident that he's writing about.

21:32It didn't go down this way. Globe reporters were, like, tried to track down the stories that he invented and couldn't find the sources. Everybody knew he was lying. Somebody did an analysis for the banner of his writing and it was like, they, they broke the characters down into villains, victims, and heroes. And the villains and victims are all mostly black people. It was like, you know, 88%. And the heroes were all white people, mostly cops, mostly white men. And it was just kind of like a little view into the mind of somebody who's a journalist, whose brother was a detective on the Boston police force at a time when detectives in Boston had a very interesting relationship with crime and drug selling and stuff like that. You know, but you could, you could, you got a sense that black, that white journalists didn't view us the way we view ourselves. So it was very important for us to put out a different perspective

22:36and I think that the banner has always done that well. I'm so glad to say that and that's what I've known since I've moved to Boston. The banner was really one of the first newspapers that I ever read and the first one that really I felt spoke to me as a black resident inside of Boston. But Adrienne, do you feel, I mean, you are from the globe. You've been there for a significantly long time. Have you had to argue in your newsroom? Have you had to argue as an editor about the way that something is being covered? Oh, sure. Many times. You know, you make you barnacle and I don't really want to go down a barnacle or have it all, but you know. It could be a whole session. We could do a whole session, you know. I was one of the people involved in pushing them out, you know, ultimately. And one of his replacements is a columnist. So, but yeah, I mean, you know, look, we have debates about what should we cover all the time. And yeah, and part of it is how are we going to, how are we going to cover communities of color? When I started, not so much of the globe,

23:37but more in Miami, you know, one of the things I realized, covering a community that I'd grown up in, was that all the stories about black people, were stories about quiet. You know, and I'm so glad that we moved away from that. And I think it's all gotten dramatically more thoughtful over time, but it's, it's the thing you get from having black reporters and editors and, you know, being in the room and being able to make that case. Yeah, it's, it's been us. I mean, I think it's been a pretty substantial change from the 80s and early 90s to now. Oh, sure, yeah. What do you think are the most substantial changes in that time period? In journalism. In journalism. In Boston. In Boston. In journalism. I mean, well, first of all, as we covered before, like that, just that you're getting like, like, you know, the, the gutting of newsrooms, right? And, and the shrinking of newsrooms. So you're not getting as wide a range of stories.

24:39But yeah, I think that, that, that, the globe, GBHBUR, like, you know, we also, as GBHBUR started doing more news coverage, we have like a broader array of things that you have to read. So it's not just the globe, the Harold, the banner. Now you have to, you have to, you know, go on the websites of GBHBUR, Commonwealth Magazine. Like, if you want to know what's going on in Boston, there's, I think, you know, it's a little bit broader in some ways, but then, you know, we also lost the Phoenix. So a few years back. So come on, Phoenix, all we ever wrote about Black people. No, but I'm just talking about, like, if you want to know what's going on. The Phoenix was not a lost to Black people. It is not allowing Phoenix to enter this conversation. Phoenix is out of the chat. I would, yeah, I agree with you on that, but still to know what's going on in Boston. I mean, you and I still, I do miss it, but it was like, you know, Boston, like Boston was maybe like 25% people of color, right?

25:42And now it's like, you know, 50, 55% people of color. So, you know, it's, it's, it's absolutely changed. And I think for the most part, the news media has grown with that and in, in, in good ways. I mean, if you ask me, let's change. I would say everything's changed. We don't do anything the way we did it. The day I walked into the globe, 37 years ago. We had a team, you know, dedicated the money power and equality team that does nothing but right about racial and economic inequality. We never would have had that 30 years ago. You know, we have a great divide team devoted to education. Almost all of their stories are about racial inequity and education. We never would have had that 30 years ago. But we think about everything differently than we did back in the day. We're actually going to take a short break. And then we are going to talk a little bit about some of those questions about now that things are being covered. Does that actually mean that things are going to change?

26:42Once again, you're watching BNN talk of the neighborhood, but you are also listening to us on WBCA 102.9 Boston's Community Radio Station. And we'll be right back. The First Amendment. The First Amendment. The First Amendment. The First Amendment. Congress shall make no law, respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or bridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people, peaceably to assemble, and petition the government for a redress of grievances. The First Amendment.

27:45Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, with conquering limbs, stride from land to land. Here, at out sea-washed sunset gates, she'll stand a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame is the imprisoned lightning, in her name, Mother of Exiles. From her beacon hand, blows worldwide welcome, her mild eyes command, the abridged Hava, the Twin Cities frame. Keep ancient lands. Your story, punk, cry she, with silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, you're earning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teaming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest tossed to me, and lift my lamp beside the golden door, the new colossus, and the Lazarus.

28:48And we're back on B&N's talk of the neighborhood. Again, I'm your host, Kristen Halford, filling in for Joe Heisler. You're also listening to us on WBCA 102.9 FM, Boston's community radio station, here with Yahoo Miller and Adrian Walker. And let's continue this discussion about black journalism. Specifically, now that we have things, like you had mentioned before, the break, the Money Power and Equality Team, as well as the Great Divide, which covers education over at Boston Globe, and all of the work that both the flip side, base state banner, and your coverage that's in the Dorchester reporter right now, now that all these items are being covered, where's the change? Change is complicated, you know? But I think that it begins with shining a spotlight, no pun intended, on things that are going on.

29:50And I think we do that, and I think we do it well. I think change is moving target in Boston. I mean, if we applied these same things, like, you know, 30 years ago, when Adrian and I were still young, you know, it would be different. But I mean, I think now we're dealing with a different population in Boston, that this whole city's become more transient. The black community has shifted from when my grandfather was born on Beacon Hill to when I was born in Roxbury, and now it's, you know, people are moving to Randolph, Stoughton, Brockton. So, I mean, we have a black community, and the percentage is like, you know, shrunk a bit, and numbers about the same, but it's different people, right? Like, so, it's way more heterogeneous. It's always been heterogeneous, but it's more so now. So, it's, you know, it's really hard to say.

30:50Like, you look at the black population in the Boston public schools, a good percentage of them are English language learners. You know, it's not, you know, not the same community that it was when we started. So, have things gotten better or worse? I mean, I think things have gotten better in many, in many sense, and, you know, many, by many indicators, like higher rates of graduation, higher rates of college completion, still vast inequities. However, white people in Boston have gotten a lot wealthier. So, like, they're gonna have better outcomes whereas black folks haven't gotten wealthier in Boston. Partly because, you know, it's the people who are black who are here. Like, many of them are just first generation, you know, Americans. So, yeah, it's like, you know, we're dealing with kind of moving targets. It's hard to compare where we were. But, you know, I'm trying to remember

31:51the statistic for white people was that, I think in 2014, the average white family in Boston earned 60,000 a year, and then by 2020, it was 120,000 a year, and it's like, these white people did not get raises. They got displaced, right? So, the low-income white people moved out, higher-income white people moved into the city. It's a very different city. Like, South Boston is not what it was like. I mean, I got chased out of there in 1975. You know, that would not happen now, right? I would hope not. Yeah. If it did, it wouldn't be white kids chasing me. You know, Dorchester is extremely different. Even when I was a kid, you know, it was like, dividing line was Columbia Road, and it kind of shifted over more to Dorchester Ave. I mean, there were parts, entire parts of the city, there were off limits. And now, you know, the demographics,

32:55the income has changed. It's a very different white population and a different black population. Yeah, I was going to jump in and say, and I don't mean to gloss over any problems at all, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the city has changed a lot. The city has changed a ton. When I moved here, people told me, don't go to Charlestown, don't go to Southeast, high-park as iffy, as our parts of Dorchester. You know, we've come a long way from that, you know? I mean, without a doubt, the single biggest problem in the city is economic inequality. And because we all see that as the city has gotten richer, we say, who's gotten richer than who's getting left behind? But it's not like nothing's changed. That's not a real narrative. There are a lot of, you're right. There are a lot of things that have changed, a lot of things that have actually changed for the better, including even if the newsrooms are not getting more diverse, certainly the leadership of Boston and Greater Boston is significantly more diverse. Not a whole more diverse place. Yes. I mean, say what you will about her when I walked into Tom Manino's office, and I see Michelle Wu sitting by in the desk,

33:57I mean, I can see right there in my face how much the city has changed. When I covered City Hall in the early 90s, a mirror would have been inconceivable for five reasons. Oh, I volunteered on Sam Yun's mural campaign. I can tell you exactly how much this place has changed. In the 1990s or early 2000, you'd walk into Chuck Turner's office and you'd see like a black person, the Latino staffer and a white staffer, you go into Philex, a rail is office the same thing. Every white city councilor was like, oh, wait. That was like a huge change when white elected officials started hiring people of color on staff. It kind of, you know, that was, I think it was after, you know, like 2000, the census came out like 2001 and all of a sudden it's a majority, people of color city. And, you know, I think that shift and that people understanding the things that shifted, kind of changed people's outlook on the city or also on how to deal with people from different backgrounds.

34:58Now, what size, how to deal with people from different backgrounds? Are you, do you cover people differently from different backgrounds? When the person looks like you, when the person has the same lived experiences as you do, because certainly someone covering Tom Manino might cover him differently than someone who's covering Mayor Wu. Definitely, huh? That's a trap question. Sorry, I'm supposed to let you ask the question, right? Differently in that, sometimes we do not want to air dirty laundry, but sometimes accountability is a love language. So, how do you balance it? I don't think there's anything to balance, really. I mean, I think that first of all, I'm there as a representative of the readership. I'm there as a representative of the community writ large. And, you know, I don't feel like, like my job is different, because the mayor's not a white man anymore. I just don't really think I've got enough Trumps.

36:00Yeah, I mean, same that, you know, when Mayor Manino did things that people in the community felt were beneficial for the community, it was like, that was one story, when he did things that people felt were damaging to the community, it was a different story, and same with Mayor Wu. I think she generally gets treated the same way. But it's impossible to believe that everybody is going to look at her the same way that they would look at a white man. I mean, the world just doesn't work that way. What are the differences in news coverage? It'd be really interesting for somebody to study, like, drill down on the language and the types of stories that are being put out. Like, I haven't noticed a difference as yet, but it'd be interesting to sort of dig into that. There's anything Boston does to do. It's research something. So perhaps one of the listeners or watchers right now is getting an idea for a capstone project. Yeah. Yeah. So when we are looking at, again,

37:02far more diverse leadership, diversity, the black and Latino caucus that's over in the state house, do you find that it's easier for the stories to get traction now because you have these people who are in power, who are reflective of the community, as well as the writers? Certainly. And I would also say that just the whole feeling of covering city hall or the state house is different than it was back in the day. When I covered the state house, that building was so white. There were hardly any people of color that even talked to, you know? And it's completely different now and it's really healthy and it's much easier for stories to get traction. It's very normal. Yeah. Same. That, I mean, I think, well, for us, the mandate was always to cover the black caucus and then the black and Latino caucus. So when we were going in there, generally we were just going in to talk to black and Latino, you know, representatives. Jesus, like, I think you and I, well, yeah, I remember Nelson Merced

38:03and then the guy in Lawrence, the, I can't remember his name now, before Willy Lantigua though, you know, it was the early Latinos in the state house and you were covering like sort of history being made. So that's right. You know, that's changed. And, but yeah, there's more shades, there's more like color to that coverage as well. Like, people are in, they're not all marching in lockstep all the time. And, you know, sometimes there's like, strife within the caucus and we've certainly covered that. Or, yeah, so. It's funny, I was just talking to somebody who last made about covering the first of all Patrick campaign in 2006, which was thrilling, you know, because, you know, nobody ever thought, including me at the beginning, that he had a real chance of winning. And to sort of see him build this coalition and put it all together, you could just feel what a sea change it was going to be

39:03in Massachusetts politics. And it was, it was really not like covering any other race I'd done before. I think those moments where things are changing too, are like really fun to cover as journalists because it's also like in that change, it exposes like what is wrong with it's commonwealth from the perspective of black people, which is like that, you know, you've got devol Patrick running for governor. You have a mayor who's supporting a less popular candidate. I think it was like, Minino was supporting Riley. And then ordering his city workers to, you know, do stuff for Riley, you know, those moments were kind of like exposing, like sort of like the things that were, in some ways holding people back politically, holding black people back politically, you know. You know, another campaign I'll put on that list was the, I honestly might cap you on a race.

40:03There's another place where you could really see how the city has changed and how the area has changed really, you know, in this incredibly vivid way, right? 2018. Yeah. I thought she was going to win. And it's Rachel Walsh still. I mean, I know she was going to win. Walsh won the same night. Well, I did it by the end, but not at the beginning. I mean, I remember when other city counselors didn't want to endorse her, because they were sure she couldn't beat Capuano. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, the polls weren't showing anything, like, you know, I mean, I think they were showing money, she had no ads. She beat them without a single television ad. But Rollins was even, perhaps even more surprising to me because you just kind of, I mean, in the past, like, you had this field that was like sort of, like, there were women running, there were progressives running, et cetera, this big field. And you had one white man in there who was like, you know, endorsed by the police and was sort of like the, you know, we thought the favored candidate.

41:03And I was driving over towards Dorchester. I just come away from Blismaranda's victory party and then all of a sudden, I, you know, heard, like, that Rollins, when I, like, you turned, went back to Jamaica playing, because I just come from Nika, Alaguarda's thing, that whole night was just sort of like sending people different directions. Like, wait, go this way. That is the same thing. And nobody broke the mold more than Richard Rollins. Yeah. As a woman, as a woman of color, as a progressive, as a person who was willing to do everything completely differently. And she also won easily. Two, two weak things. Or just like we're unprecedented, which was, we're that word 12 in Roxbury had the same percentage turnout as like six and seven in Southeast. Which is like how we're so few people voting in Southeast and so many voting in Roxbury's. Higher, like a percentage in Roxbury, the turnout. And word 19 had the highest turnout in the city, which was like, word 19 was like, you know, sort of yuppie liberal types who didn't vote in high numbers before.

42:04And they had they somehow activated for them to turn out in a higher percentage than West Roxbury was unprecedented as well. And then also that that press Lee and Rollins were able to draw votes from West Roxbury and did well around the city. And I think that alerted me to the fact that that Southy, Dorchester, Reedville, all those sections of the city that had normally, you know, like candidates of color looked at it as the donut. They had high turnout. And then like the candidates of color drew from the center of the city. But, you know, the center of the city were stronger. And also those areas like South Boston, like we're sending votes to Rollins and press Lee, that those neighborhoods have been gentrified right on white gentrification. It's like it's not as visible as when it happens in a black neighborhood. But that's why I was looking at the,

43:05at the income levels in those neighborhoods as well. I can see that white families were all the sudden wealthier and it's not because they all got raises but because they got displaced by higher income people. So it was a really interesting, 2018 was a real, I mean, that's what for me politics is like a window into like Boston, into society. I'm actually gonna go back to what you said about the polls and what the polls look like that morning for press Lee. And part of the reason that people say afterwards that it looked like that is because they weren't necessarily polling the people that press Lee or Rollins were trying to turn out. They were talking to the wrong people. But a lot of what you guys do is talk to people who people may have not even thought of were inside of the conversation. Yeah, so how do you want to be reading these days?

44:05Who do you really, really wish to be reading with me like a guy? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was all y'all to be reading any of our stuff. I want everybody to read. I mean, I'm sorry, but I don't have like, I mean, I want everybody in the black community to be reading. And sometimes I would do it on the street interviews and I'd say, hey, I'm with the Bay State banner. I'm down in Dudley Square talking to people and I'm with the Bay State banner. What's the Bay State banner? And it's like somebody who's like my age and they've lived in the community their entire life and never picked up the paper. That's kind of disheartening that we're not reaching people. And it's, we know, I mean, we print journalists who love writing and don't know how to do anything else. I mean, know that if you want to reach more people, you should get on TikTok. You should, you know, like post videos. And... Up here on local neighborhood news. Yeah.

45:06Absolutely. I mean, you have to, you know, get, if you want to get a message out, if you want to get, you're reporting out that you have to use all these different means and, you know, who has the bandwidth? Well, the troll y'all is just meeting readers where they are, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like, sometimes it feels like you have to spoon feed stuff to people because, you know, as journalists, we're always like going around and sort of like peeking under things and looking through things and like seeking information. And I guess, you know, it gives you a skewed notion of how other people think because other people don't do that necessarily, right? Yeah. Well, actually, I am curious. When you're not reading your own stuff, what are you reading? I know. You know, besides each other, I'm sure you read each other. I read the globe, I read the times, I read the Washington Post every day, I read the Atlantic, I read the New Yorker stuff like that. Yeah, Commonwealth Magazine as well. Yes. I mean, the globe in the herald are indispensable.

46:08The herald is dispensable. Yeah. Okay. I'm kidding. They have produced some really good journalists who globe them steels. Yes, that's right. But, but you know. It's a globe going to steal how we car. Okay. I don't know. It would not concern. I think that shifts the old decades ago. Yeah, and then I think every journalist should read fiction as well because like, you know, to like you should have amuse of some sort. Like an author who's pros you like a poet, you know, I think we should read, we should get out of our little narrow tunnel vision and read stuff that kind of nourishes our hearts, you know. I've been reading Raymond Chandler. But I've been trying really hard to read more fiction. But I love reading history like Tom Fobrick's books about his book about the Siege of Boston.

47:09He was called Bunker Hill. There was a book that came out a couple of years ago called No Right to An Honest Living that was about such a good book. Yeah, it was about the labor market in Boston for black people in the 1800s. I'm like, this is like the Boston that my grandfather and great grandfather were in and it's like, yeah, my great grandfather, my great grandfather was a janitor and it was like, that was a really good job for black people back then. Most black people were itinerant workers. They didn't have jobs and most black men and most black women worked in service, you know, like cleaning houses and stuff. And that was certainly my great grandmother's vocation. So Malcolm X worked at the parkour house. He did, yes, for that. Well, those are good jobs, I mean, for that time. But I mean, even up until when my dad graduated college, a lot of black folks left to get jobs because Boston's market was so hard. Boston had been municipal jobs too. In our lifetime, like, I mean, we saw like court desegregation,

48:12people think that it was all about black kids sitting next to white kids in schools because segregation is bad. It was also like what opened up schools for black people to become janitors, teachers, administrators and up till that point, it was really hard to get, like, for black people to get jobs in any of city government, the consent decree that desegregated the Boston Police Department and the fire department without that consent decree, you know, we wouldn't have as many black officers as we have now. So, you know, we're at not for the end of LACP. We'd be way behind where we're at now. I think there'd probably be a lot fewer black folks in Boston because those city jobs were really important for us. The BHA also got desegregated through court action, pretty much all of the city, the major parts of city government, like the desegregated, and we witnessed it. Like in the 80s, like you were seeing the police department, was still under that consent decree. Police officers had to be promoted and, you know,

49:16Billy Celester, you know, and like all those, you know, the cops who were around when we were younger. You were on drugs? The great, we were on drugs. Yeah, but, you know, it's interesting. They were desegregated one court decision at a time because it was always the result of a fight, right? It was none of it happened voluntarily. None of it happened because mirrors wanted to do it. None of it happened because fire commission just wanted to do it. All of it came by force. Yeah. And I'm sure as long as something's coming by force, as long as something is a fight, that it's going to need to be covered. Yes, it will. Oh, but before we close, I do want to add, Adrian, what are you reading? Why? Before we close, at least tell me something when you read it. I'm rereading Common Ground because I was talking about the other day with some newer people at the globe and said to me, what's one Boston book you should read? And I said Common Ground. So I'm reading it now for like the third or the fourth time. Oh, see, now I'm rereading how we get free from the company River Collective

50:16because that 50-year anniversary is coming up next year. Right on. Yes. So I would say, I would say, like, aside from me reading Raymond Chandler right now, I would say that the indispensable books for people to read Boston, to understand Black Boston, Mel King's Chain of Change. Yes. The death of American Jewish community, I think, is very harming from the globe in Hillel Levine from Boston University. Really interesting, deep dive into sort of what happened in the red lining in Dorchester and Matapan and how the Jewish community, which was 90,000 strong at some point, by the time you and I started reporting, there were probably fewer than 20,000 Jewish people living in Boston. And that was that history. Gosh, that sounds like that's going to be like a whole nother show for the Jewish area. I felt like common ground covered desegregation through a very white lens where Black people didn't have agency.

51:17And so Chain of Change was interesting because Mel King, like, you know, cites this meeting between Black elected officials and activists. But we're going to have to see a full conversation for Mel King who also is a whole nother show for the next time. I want to say thank you so much, Yalu. Thank you so much, Adrian, for coming out tonight. And again, this has been Talk of the Neighborhoods on B&N. I am so excited to be Kristen Halberd, filling in for Joe, who will be back. And we are listening to us on WBCA 102.9 FM Boston's Community Radio Station. And thanks for joining us tonight. Thanks, you guys.