South Beach Sessions - Darren Waller

0:00You are listening to DraftKeyes Network. You are listening to DraftKeyes Network. Welcome again to South Beach Sessions. I'm genuinely enthused about this one. I do not say that just the way everyone says, hey, I'm excited about this guest. Darren Waller, I've admired obviously his physical skills for a while, but what I've admired the most is that he is unusually comfortable being vulnerable in public because of whatever it is he's learned through what seems like from over here a fascinating journey. So he's a pro bowler. He was obviously great with the Raiders, went to the Giants, and I thought he was going to be great there too, and it seemed like a thousand things happened that made that very hard.

1:01It seems to me, after a year off, and reinvented himself here, it was a pleasure to watch you work with the dolphins. But like I said, the most interesting part of you to me is like, man, this guy is really comfortable talking about tender things, about growth, about being lonely in a way that I'm simply not used to hearing come out of the huddle. Like, no wonder that guy feels alone. My guess is he's walking in a locker room with a whole bunch of people who are looking at him and being like, what's he up in his feelings about? We're here to play football. Why does he care so much about getting his feelings heard about things? So anyways, I admire the way that you are, and the parts of your story you've shared, and so thank you for being on with us. Yeah, no, it's hard to be here. So take me through just chronologically, what you would describe as sort of the landmark posts in your upbringing, where if you were explaining to a stranger that you wanted to know you a little bit, what your upbringing was like, and how you were beginning to be formed, what were your first, you know, 14, 15 years of life like?

2:03First 14, 15 years grew up 30 minutes north of Atlanta, Georgia. My parents, my dad is from Queens, New York. My mom is from Maryland area, and I was born in DC. We moved to Colorado when I was young, and we moved to Georgia right before I turned five. So that's pretty much all I remember. I had both parents in the home, parents stood together at an older sister, and you know, on paper, it's great childhood, great area grew up in great schools, but you know, learning more and looking back on my life as I've gone forward, you know, both my parents came from addictive households, and so for them, I think they, they did a tremendous job with my sister and I, and I think they were, had experiences where they grew up where it was like, then we want to do, give our kids the opposite of what we may have had to experience. And in doing that, I think they did a great job of like teaching us how to communicate and be good in school and present well and have manners and respect with other people.

3:13But in some ways, I don't think they anticipated, because I don't think they would have known either that it kind of turned us into performers like, and it paid off like my football career and, and things like that, but in a lot of ways, it just made me, I don't know, very like hyper vigilant of like wanting to please people and not wanting to, you know, feel like rejection and things like that. And I had some, you know, rejection, kind of things going on early on, like I remember being in social environments around school, people my age very early on, and it was always like, I was, you know, a little bit more sensitive in a little, you know, I was black, right in at black. And, you know, I was, I guess like advanced and as far as school comes, I gifted it or whatever. And I was often one like the only black kids in my classes and things like that. So everywhere I went, I kind of felt like I didn't necessarily fit in. It's everywhere. So you're, you like music, you're a little bit of a nerd, but you're a great athlete, and you can hide in the confidence of everyone thinks the great athlete is popular, but is this really who I am?

4:22Aren't I more than this? Yeah, yeah, just kind of, yeah, realizing I was very good at sports growing up and that kind of like kind of gave me some inclusion into spaces, but a lot of times it was like, yeah, why do you listen to music like that? Why do you dress like that? But it's not the real you that's getting the inclusion, right? It's just the football player. It's just the performer. It's, it's not the things about you that you actually want seen. It's the things that people think you are, which is there's the football player guy and you want to be seen as something you want the rest of you seen. Yeah, and it's a, it's like the representative of me that I want these people to see. And that's as early as elementary school, middle school, and on into high school. Like in middle school was really rough for me because that's where I started to start to like act out and like, oh, I want to act out to like, you know, kind of gain attention. But also it's like the dudes that get all the girls are, you know, acting bad and doing a bunch of stuff. And so like, I kind of want to be like them because I don't really get much attention from girls like I want to be cool. And it's like that brought me out of really trying to figure out who I am authentically as a kid.

5:25You know, so there's so much pressure in those times on kids to be socially accepted, which I think is a basic human need. But the same time I felt like I went above and beyond, try to be accepted to the point where it was just like, I don't really know what I want to pursue because I want to pursue the things that get me validation in the eyes of other people. Instead of yourself, right? Like so explain to me this, you're covering a lot of ground here. So when you say that's a big umbrella, my parents both came from an addictive background. What does that mean? So it means for them, they, they themselves didn't take on those addictive qualities. But there's almost like a level of codependence because it's like in those households, you got to find ways to, you know, survive to cope and to almost disassociate in ways. From that and so does this mean that your grandparents have some addiction issues or doesn't? Yes, on both sides, both my dad's parents and my mom's dad, so my maternal grandfather.

6:28And whatever it is they've learned in the patterns of their upbringing on how they keep it together and stay away from the addictive stuff, it's all part of their learning process. That's the environment you're growing up in. Yeah. And so the main thing is there's so many positive qualities that came from it. But one of the things I think lacked was like a place for like emotional understanding and acceptance. And because I never really felt like there was a in my home, it was like my emotions where I could be able to express them. I don't think they were ever, I mean, there were times where I was like, you know, kind of like the, you know, like my dad one time was like just like cry. So much like one experience like that and that kind of like made me be like, all right, well, all right, like I'm not going to cry and kind of hold things in and just just carry them to myself. So that just like the households they grew up in there probably wasn't space for them to necessarily. So in this case, this doesn't have very much to do with addiction stuff, but your dad is just saying be more masculine than that.

7:29Whatever it is that like what what are you doing? Why are you why why are you crying? Yeah, but push it down with just don't don't. Yeah, yeah, and I feel like it was like a like an experience where you know, I'm sure my dad had a bunch on his plate at the time. And it was probably a time where I was like crying a lot and just like very sensitive and just like in one moment, you can be like, all right, like what is this? Why are you doing this so much? But for me, that was like, oh, like I shouldn't be like this. And so from there, it was it turned into a lot of just like stuffing things down and you know, by like 14, 15 was when I kind of got into drugs and stuff like that. So how does this happen? Because I've talked before in our show about I don't understand how for example drew bear more what would have to be happening her life for her to have a cocaine dependency at 12 years old. Like I just especially if you're coming from a household that otherwise has plenty of disciplines in it, right? So like how does that happen?

8:30If it's not an absence of supervision, it's just it happens. How does it happen that you get to drug dependency by 15 when you've you've got caring parents who are trying to give a good environment for you. And you feel like you're doing the other all the other things correctly, but there's a part of you that doesn't know what 15 that you're actually hiding in some of this feels inauthentic because you're not grown enough to understand what the hell's going on with all your feelings. Yeah, just around that time just very highly anxious from just trying to be so hyper vigilant like I was talking about and you know, just depressed like not really feeling like a lot of things that I wanted to see go my way we're going my way. Like football was one of the things that I leaned on as like okay, I'm good at this, but then freshman sophomore year of high school like everybody got bigger than me and I was like really small and hadn't really hit like the weight room or anything yet. And so I was kind of like fragile and my freshman year wrote the bench and my sophomore year high school I was hurt most of the years. I had like his elbow surgery and so I was like dang football is not working out either and just like kind of in a low point of like.

9:35I don't really enjoy life per se and I never really with somebody I was like I wanted to get into drugs I kind of knew like okay, these aren't necessarily good from what my parents had told me and but it was presented to me in a way like my friends had gone to their parents medicine cabinets and found like a hydrocodone pills and like painkillers and for me it was like I don't feel good and they presented to me in a way that it would make me feel good so I was like I'm going to try it and it was like. Instantly like yes like this is how I want to feel and it wasn't really doing anything crazy was just like popping a couple pills and watching a movie. I mean I mean all your described wait a minute at a pet at 15 years old I can take a pill that will make me go from feeling sad and lonely to feeling good okay yeah there's not a lot more thought than that I mean I'm in yeah and then you know that you started to get more frequent when from like every now and then to like all right every weekend and it was like all right a few days or a week. A few days or a week and then a year after that there was a kid that was on my football team who was like him he saw a weed and he was like if you pick me up and take me to school every day we can smoke a month before we go to school and I was like.

10:47Sign me up and and then from there start drinking. I just like bud lights and skyvacus high school and like spring break stuff like that and it's fun and it helps you interact with others and you feel less lonely and it acts as a band aid for you not understanding that you've got something screaming inside you that that it needs addressing but at this point you're not even thinking that you can be introspective right no not all I didn't have any awareness of the time of like okay. In order to like heal this and effectively like put this behind me or grow from this I have to like sit with that discomfort and kind of face it I had no awareness at the time it was just like oh if I just move out the way and kind of stuff it away and do this and feel good like. This this works this is the formula and at that same time going into like my junior year senior high school is like when I started to grow then the this athletic opportunity started to present themselves and then it's like you know girl start to come to the picture.

11:52You're more popular so it's like okay this is just my formula this works for me and my grades are still good in school and I'm still like. Yes ma'am no sir like looking people in the eye and you know everybody thinks highly of me and so like this is just part of who I am and so I'm just going to. Keep doing this you were presenting perfectly right you had gotten very good at the performance of showing others what an amazing thing you were. To stand in front of people and be perfectly dishonest mastered it very early on. And and got applause at every turn for an inauthentic version of yourself yes and so how did you get good at the performance where did you really like you could trick your parents as well correct yeah. So you're at this point you're an accomplished liar as a teenager because you've got to learn to be right yeah to understand like the lying and almost like kind of moving the shadows is a couple stories I have to share. When I was younger I want to say both of these experiences I was around like eight nine years old and the first one was my parents would tell us like okay you guys can drink one soda a day other than that we're drinking water.

13:03So I was like okay and then my parents one day I guess they went into my room for something. And I think my daddy looked under the bed and there was like 50 soda cans under my bed and so I'm like drinking more than one soda can day and I'm hiding under my bed like oh I'm getting away with this. And then another another one was I was a huge wrestling fan like WWE fan when I was a kid like die hard and I saw they sold action figures and stuff like that. And so one day I was like oh if I can memorize my parents credit card information when the credit cards out I can go online order these action figures. And if I get home from the bus I can beat the mail man home and get the wrestling action figures before my parents see him. And I got home the one day and the wrestling figures were stacked up in the house my parents are like what the fuck is this. So it's like that performing stuff like that in public was what I did to you know gain validation and stuff like that but it was also like a shadow side to that to where it was like very early on I was already trying to be sneaky and move like that.

14:05And like you know once I start like doing drugs stuff was like creeping in taking money at my mom's purse and just doing things like that. So there was like a like a darker side to that behavior. Was there shame about it were you paying attention like did you think you had a problem or did you think you had it under control. I mean I thought I had it I was convinced that I had under control and was under that illusion all the way up until I started seeing the consequences in the NFL for my behavior. I started hitting the news really big so that was I mean you're talking most of my life. I was under the illusion of I mean control of me I got good grades. I'm going places athletically. I treat people well like I've checked all the boxes that everybody told me that I should check as a growing young person. So what is wrong there's nothing. Well it's just crazy that you are fooling everybody though right that it's not until the NFL starts snooping around. It's not like you're a six round pick right so like they they have to background and take a look at everything you're doing.

15:05But it's not like you're one of the the giant investments but you could have fooled just about anyone until they come around with their detective work and it's like wait a minute you might have a problem. Right and then there was also like time in college too because I was suspended from my college team twice. I failed two of the three drug tests like three strikes you're out drug tests from the NCAA. Pretty sure I failed my third one but that's the only reason you were a six round pick right. I think it's a combination of that and then also we ran the like the triple option offense when I was in college. So I mean you you know football stats like a thousand yards is a good receiving year I didn't have a thousand yards my four years combined. But it's like the plays that where they did throw me the ball were like big plays and all the most of the plays I made were against like NFL level competition. Like when we played like the Florida state was really good when I was in college in Georgia and Climpsons and games like that was where most of my production came. And so scouts probably watching other people and being like oh wait who is this guy over here making plays against these first round type of talents.

16:13So I think it's like the lack of like the not really much production and with the red flags as they label it was probably the reason why I was six round. I think I probably would have went undrafted by ran a fast 40. But anybody can watch you play to watch you anybody who watched you with the Raiders running through a secondary would say that is a majestically athletically gifted human being who can't be covered by other great athletes like that. I would have assumed that you coming out of college were some version of what I saw with the Raiders. Yeah I mean it kind of blew me away because the Ravens tried to me six round and they did an interview with John Harbaugh after my career kind of started to take off and he was like yeah we had in like first round grade. And I was like what I never even never even crossed my mind that people had me rated that high or saw that much in me at the time because I just didn't really have the that level of confidence or because like you mentioned the shame like a lot of that stuff kind of followed me around. So it was like kind of tough to build a level of confidence in yourself when that shame is always there and you're always trying to like you either feel in the shame or trying to push the shame away by putting something in your body.

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18:30Bet player props bet live and when the game turns fast draft Kings has your back with early exit. If your player gets injured anytime in the first half your bet stays alive and once it settles you still get paid in cash. Download the draft King sports book app and use code beach new customers bet just $5 and if your bet wins you'll get $200 in bonus bets instantly. That's code beach in partnership with draft Kings the crown is yours. Gambling problem call 1 800 gambler New York call 877 8 hope in wire text hope in why Connecticut call 888 789 777 7 or visit ccpg.org. On behalf of boot hill casino in Kansas wait your tax pass through may apply in Illinois 21 and over in most dates void an Ontario restrictions apply. Bet must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days minimum odds required for additional terms and responsible gaming resources cdkng.co slash audio limited time offer. What sounds to me like you're wandering around the earth sort of as a gentle tender human being who doesn't quite know himself yet. And you're medicating the fact that you kind of know deep down without having the ability to put a name on it oh I'm a fraud I'm not I'm lying to everybody all the time about everything.

19:43And you it's hard to live with yourself inside it's certainly hard to love love yourself like the things that I've been impressed about hearing you talk about since then is on the other side of that pain you have grown to the place where you realize that you had to go through that pain. So that you can be gentle with the human being that you like more now than you did then and so where did you learn some of that stuff but I also want to go back to. So you're in college and you full people until when when are you for it because you're you're failing drug test if you're failing drug test now people are going to say even if you're functional and and discipline in other ways. Oh this person this person might they might not have a problem they're not telling the truth all the time either they're not quite as impeccable as he looks when as he presents right yeah double life was a lot of the terms that were used throughout my college career like the first part of my. In a failure career but yeah in college when you start there's like there's a program when you start to fail drug test so they put me with like a sports psychologist and they have me like talking to the sports psychologist and it's kind of like you know you can kind of keep those people at arms like that's just kind of what I got good at doing.

20:51Oh you can perform for them too you could you're you're just go you can entertain yourself in therapy if you're smart as you are yeah and then it's like this after the second test they start sending me to like these outpatient rehab programs to where like three nights a week I would go to basically like a rehab place and they would. Teach you about addiction all the stuff and there's like these sharing groups and therapies and all that and it's like I can give those people to run around of like okay yeah like you sign this contract of like you're not gonna you're gonna be sober for like the six week program or. Whatever it was and it's like I'll sign the contract and it's like I'm going getting high as soon as I leave and that continued on throughout college and it's just like yeah always people are trying to help me and trying to figure out okay like what is going on here and and zeroing in their focus on me but I'm just like you know dodging and trying to find anyway possible to allow myself to keep doing what I've been doing. But also great at that right not that you think you're great at it and are lying to yourself you're consistently fooling everybody correct parents everyone cares about you stealing from person all of it has an explanation and all of it at the end of it you're charming you the inauthentic you.

22:06And you look back at that person and are kind and gentle to that person with forgiveness through the clarity of retrospect or much much more so now there was there was a I was in San Diego I think it was like right before or right after my divorce and I was doing a sound bath a friend really good friend of mine Donnie his we wouldn't like a sound bath. In San Diego and when I was in the sound bath I was for some reason it brought up the earlier experiences in my life and I can always look back on myself and I'll be like you know I was just this like fucked up kid I was just always getting in trouble and always doing these things always I was never able to look at that part of myself I was like like you were just describing like this gentle even being like trying to figure out how to navigate the world and find authenticity in myself and like it was just like a lot of a pain in my life.

23:06And a lot of shame present that was keeping me from doing that I wasn't like this I wasn't just fucked up kid and in that sound bath I was able to like connect to that I started like crying like after the sound bath was over like people start like they're like food there and people were just like talking about oh how much of a great experience it was and I was like crying for the first time since that experience I told you about where it was like oh I shouldn't be crying when I was a kid. You got the release from a sound bath that you had pushed out since your dad made you feel like not enough of a man for crying the first time. Yeah and I had to leave I just walked around like like insanitas I just walked around the city like it was just like to myself and being like wow like I never once looked at that version of myself with any type of kindness or curiosity or love it was just always like shaming that kid because it's like you know I grew up with like my mom was like the firm one so she was always like not we're not doing that we're doing this like to try to get us to be the best version of ourselves so it's like I kind of adopted that to myself and like I like and that kind of translates into like the relationship I had with God I seen God was just like you keep doing this shit you're going to hell type of and so it was always like I adopted that shame into like the inner parts of myself as opposed to

24:16and but that experience was the beginning of like not like I wasn't trying to do harm I was really trying to do good but I was just coping with the difficulties I was facing in the best way that I could I don't know how many alternative forms of healing you get into or how much of the unknown you partake in but when you say the sound bats are you articulating for us the idea that something about the sound and the vibrations summoned something from inside you that you would have had no access to and lubricated you with the release of the repressions of no I'm allowed to cry I kind of need to this is not been healthy the way that I've been doing this. Yeah because like the way that the sound the sound bass work I don't know the science behind somebody can probably explain it better than me but it's like those sounds they can like start to penetrate your body in these areas like almost like the like your people talk about shockers like these blockages that you have energetically in your body they can start you can feel like ringing in your body and like feel like uncomfortable like oh my gosh like what is that and then it like it naturally like my spirit my mind went to that place

25:19I wasn't sitting down like I'm going my objective for this is going to that place mentally that I was not I was just trying to have a good presence present experience with that but it's just like that's where my inner world took me I don't mean to stereotype about football players in general because I know there are many of them who feel many different things and you would know far better than I but if you were to go around your huddle and tell all of your teammates this story you would get understanding or would they think you're a weirdo um I think it's probably more accepting now but I mean for the for the large part of me I've been the leaf over a decade now it's like most would be like their first reaction would definitely be like huh like in their brain it's just like it wouldn't connect because it's like here we are in this sport in this industry where it's like it thrives on imposing your will on other people and showing the weakness and being strong and being tough and just violent in all these things it's like there's not really space for that in that career path so I yeah most

26:20would be at least be like what like no probably not being able to connect to that in that way oh but you know now though that this thing that is viewed as something as weakness you know it's a strength like you you know that to be open-minded about these things and to take care of yourself and to recognize that you're a vulnerable tender person with feelings who can speak them aloud that doesn't make you weak that makes you strong right and on a general level it's like you it seems obvious but it's like it's also not because we're these like football players but it's like there's a human in the pads and like that human goes on to the field human with the same the same way you think the same way whatever you're feeling or dodging like you bring those things on to the field which is what I started to realize when I went to rehab but it's like yeah like if the human being mentally, emotionally, spiritually isn't right you can't expect to go out on the field and expect your product or how you play to just completely flip a switch and be something different like that's just not the case

27:24it's a bit of I don't know if I can say mind fuck but be in tune physically but not spiritually and emotionally as if those are three different things right but it's like we're not necessarily taught in a you know deep in the elaborate way that all those three make up football player more maybe even more so mentally and spiritually have even more of an impact because it's like the physical gifts with me were always there but once I was able to step away for like the first time and go to rehab and those things and come back the physical skills weren't different it was the inside that was different that allowed a whole different career or what people expected of me like to be like it was like night and day but you thought you were happy and having fun during the okay now the women are paying attention to me I'm having football success I'm getting high this is the big life for a while there you're living the dream correct or there's not happiness in there it's just sort of empty superficial young guy stuff all the all the moments of joy and excitement

28:26that thought were like real joy and real you know it was all in the highs it was all in the the highs of getting drunk in high the highs of the validation from women the sexual experiences and things like that like there it was just all the highs I look back now it wasn't really like lasting joy like that was like a constant throughout my life it was just like whenever I could have those highs so it's like you're just chasing them and it's empty ultimately right because you get to them and then you realize well wait a minute this doesn't fill the hole yeah you go up you go up you go high within it's like you got to come back down in the in the coming back down is where you know you're withdrawing kind of from that experience in like when do I get the next one and so where would you point to now in retrospect and say well this is where the details of the usage were too problematic where it was out of my control where it is others identified more accurately what was happening with me that I did have a problem

29:27a problem I wasn't even acknowledging I would say leading up to my so I'll spend it once my first suspension in the league was before my second year was for four games but after that season which would have been before my third season was when I got banned for a year from the NFL I was June 2017 and leading up into that time was me and a teammate that I had on the Ravens was one of the only guys I would hang out with because we would kind of do the same things and we were talk we were talking about like okay like we got you know we got to stop like there's a lot of good that can come before this because it was like looking like I was going to be my first year as a starter or at least like a major contributor on the offense and it would be like all right we're gonna stop like I'm gonna stop Wednesday and then Wednesday will be like I'm gonna Friday and then Friday will be like I threw the weekend once the weekend's over you both were doing this you felt like a couple of junkies who were just sort of living the same life without realizing you were junkies you were just football players and this is what we're doing we're the two guys who connect here because

30:27we like doing that right and then so over that it was like dang like I'm saying I'm I'm telling myself I want to stop but I'm not able to but I still wasn't that moment where I was able to be like I'm not in control it was you know two months after that suspension was given to me in June of 2017 it was August August 11th I went and got some pills from people that we usually picked up from and they were fint in all they weren't really what I went and picked up it was like a less lesser than what I had usually got before but it like you know I had a overdose and coming out of that experience was that shook me enough to my core to be like fuck like you know I'm playing with with death here so that was enough for me to kind of be open to like suggestions and then like it was like a couple days after the Ravens team doctor called me and they still get my toxicology results from the drug test I'm taking and I'm like just piss and dirty like willingly and they're like

31:30you know we're scared for your life with these results and they set up a meeting for me to meet with like a addiction specialist in Atlanta and then met with the addiction specialist and then they were like you need to go to treatment immediately for like you know substances and like a dual diagnosis from mental health as well and so I was open to going to that because of what that experience how much fear it put in me were you at all introspective before that are you having the introspection now forced on you have you just been medicating with bandages what is a mental issue anxiety issue by just I'm going to get rid of the physical pain that I feel from football and the mental pain by just using more and more of this without examining any of it you're not you're you're just straight through this is great Raiders fun how much fun am I having with women it's a big party I don't know I have a problem and and you're using how much at this point would you say like what what when you say fentanyl obviously that series overdose obviously serious how are you getting into fentanyl by accident

32:31so like you know as you go along like you kind of like that's why it's like people say weed is a gateway drug it's completely true it's like because you know you start smoking like you you smoke a half a gram blunt that's getting you high in the beginning but then after a while I was like shit I'm putting I need to put a gram in there and then it's like no I didn't smoke a eighth now now you smoke like it increases so with the pills the same way like those first hydrocodone I'll actually put on pills from high school was like the five milligram ones a couple of of those but that's still but that's still like oxycotonous like to be a 15 using that that's a strong starting point like that's yeah you're your tolerance levels by 20 if you're doing that every day it's gonna reach fentanyl it's gonna it's gonna get to diladen eventually like you're gonna keep going up right right and then so by that time it was I escalated to a reason like 30 milligram ones and then it's like if you take it orally it probably takes like 20-ish minutes for it to kick in but if you snort it you're three minutes you're fucking here but your buzz is strong

33:33and so it's like yeah I like three 30 milligram pills regularly and you know smoking every now and then you know drinking probably at that time to lead probably like at least two three four times a week so just kind of that was the it's the lifestyle right and so how does it become fentanyl by accident though so people that we had been going to pick up from there were like all right you got to be careful out here like it's Baltimore's like crazy like they're they're pressing pills they'll put a logo on a pill but it's not what you're expecting so you got to be careful of you know who you're getting this stuff from and it's kind of just like yeah yeah alright whatever it's not gonna happen to me type of thing and you know it did happen to me what do you remember about the overdose being scared straight what are you what are the details that you remember about I because I imagine at this point you also feel a little bit bulletproof right you're so young that life and death is mortality is not a consideration right yeah so just

34:35that day yeah I was going to be moving out of my apartment the next day because I just got my suspension I was going to go home and like live with my parents in Georgia and so I was my dad was going to land later that night and we were going to move out the next day and so I was like I'm sure go get some pills go to the there was a giant grocery store which is in Maryland is like right around the corner from the practice facility so I was like I'm gonna go get these pills I'm gonna go to the giant get some food there's a liquor store right next door I was I got like some red stripes or the fuck I was drinking at the time and you know I was just gonna go chill my apartment probably play some video games and just like continue to pack up at my house but when I got the pills it was a more like downtown Baltimore and snored them on the way got to the parking lot at the giant and I put the car in park and I was like all right I'm gonna go in and get out but I opened the door and I was in gals like I felt like I was just gonna like fall on my face on the ground I was like this is gonna cause a scene this is like middle of afternoon in a grocery

35:39store parking lot I was like I'm just gonna you know cut a car off seat here for a bit till I calm down or whatever and then I'm gonna go in and then it was just like it felt like somebody just like pulled the plug from behind the TV and then like I come back to in his night time and I feel like I lost like hell of weight like I was like a shell of myself and there was like the biggest go out beads of sweat I've ever seen in my life I just like oh I woke up just like you're still in the car at this point you just been in the parking lot you OD in the parking lot and we're there for how many hours just until night time just and no one even came and got you you were just sleeping in the car and then you got up and drove home or after an overdose and then drove home just went to sleep my dad got in we woke up and moved the next day like there was nothing and we're home at this point you you were thinking about quitting football did it have to do with any of this because the first time you were I didn't know what your relationship was with football at the time because you've had two times you've left football and I don't know if that you running away from yourself or running away from football like I this time was about the like this

36:43time when you were considering quitting football what was happening was it around the drug use um I think it definitely contributed to it in that so that was my second season playing and you know I was just like you know going through it on like a life level and I was and I was starting to have these thoughts like I don't know if like football is really helping me at all like it feels like it's intensifying everything that I'm feeling to a degree right and then and so I started to share that with like people that are like you know kind of on staff like team psychologist or whatever and just trying to open up to them a little bit and then I tore my labor and my shoulder was like a month to go in the season and I was like I played the last month and had surgery after the season but I was just like almost like in an act of definitely an act of self sabotage was like I'm just gonna take these pills and so I'm just gonna fail all the drug tests until they you know force me out which they did after the mini camp and OTAs in that June suspension it was just like up into that point I was just

37:47purposely failing drug tests so they could put me out of the league as opposed to me having to say like oh I don't want to play football or you being you being strong enough it's just such a fascinating prison that you're describing I'm sorry that I'm smiling because it sounds like a real misery but I felt some of this with Ricky Williams when he was in the league as a personality who didn't quite fit in the league you're sitting here and your dreams according to just about anybody else in the world are all coming true and you're saying no this is a unique prison it's increasing my anxieties this is making everything that plagues me much worse and also as an added bonus my body really hurts every week because the violence I'm doing is inhumane precisely until you're trapped yeah you're trapped everyone else is telling you you need to be you should be happy look this is the life and you're sinking deeper and deeper into no this is a prison and I can only medicated enough to fall asleep in a parking lot because I'm doing too much

38:50drugs because I'm not actually examining why I'm not happy I'm not loving myself correctly right yeah and there's like a second iterate like you said um the the leaving football like that one was like I forced my way out and then the league was like yeah you're out of here buddy like we don't we don't want you but doing you but doing you a solid by doing so because you feel like a you don't feel strong enough you feel like the coward who can't was it strong enough to say I don't need football I can't I don't want football I'm not going to tell everybody please kick me out it's easier right and then it's like that same trapped iteration was why I was feeling um when I was uh with the giants and uh left there it was like the same thing but just drugs weren't present it was still the on that emotional mental level that same feeling of feeling trapped just less drug induced oh but even worse though because at least with the raiders you were you were running through secondary's free with the giants you're just sitting there taking a pounding and a professional failure even though you're the same player but there are

39:53a million different reasons that you're not allowed to be the same player so now the football is also it hurts physically and is deeply unhappy because it's nothing but failure you're losing and so where is the unhappiest that you were along any of that path and I and I promise you we're going to get to the parts where you break through to the other side of wherever it is the growth is but when you look back at the entire journey the unhappiest part is where I would say one with the giants um because it's uh you know it's like you know I thought through my recovery and you know kind of reinventing my life you know career a lot of things just going super well it's like those things still didn't fix anything it's like it's a feeling trapped in football trapped in uh you know very fast like relationship marriage like all those things which is being like wow like I've learned so much grown so much experience so much but here I am still experiencing the same feelings I was feeling then it just looks a lot

40:54different so that just like hit deeper even more so and uh and that's when I was like you know I guess I had even more courage then to be like I'm stepping away from football because it's just like I don't know what this is uh doing for me like I could actually step out and say that that time but it was like it was definitely needed oh but you're more of an adult than too right at that point you've gone you've you've loved you've lost you've been uh in in public you've been shamed you've shamed yourself you're probably hard on yourself than anyone else is being and so uh where does therapy come in here where do you start getting some breakthroughs where it's okay to talk about your feelings and there's no absence of masculinity and being able to tell people that you hurt when do you start getting some of the balm that's in there um I mean that started like in rehab for me so that was 2017 um those foundation started to be laid there just seeing like being vulnerable is absolutely terrifying

41:56but then it's like um the gratification after having done that feels like what I wanted to feel um when I was getting high I guess it's like how great is that so the nourishment you're validating yourself instead of being addicted to validation right yeah and then so it's just like that's how it's like me say um it's easier for you to just speak vulnerably um about you know the tender parts of your life it was just like going to rehab um started to lay the foundation of like oh this feels right like I can feel it in my body this feels right like there's a lot of times where I felt like things don't feel right but this feels like the direction I should be going in being in these vulnerable environments letting myself um be seen and not yeah continuing to live in my own prison and those things started to just building blocks that built over the years you know and it's like you get to 2023 um I was over six years sober um during all that stuff that was happening

42:58within me with the when I was in New York but it's just like being hard on myself and thinking like why haven't I had it figured out yet but it's like no this is just part of the journey like I've reached new depths of like okay like getting sober like definitely help and the work we've been doing in therapy and going to meetings and stuff like that and helping other people like this is good but they're like they're there's still more that's just like a tip of the iceberg there's still more stuff because like after the retiring 2023 that's what like that sound bath happened and then like going back to the earlier parts of my life and like the inner child work and um you know looking how I approach like validation and relationships and things like that like all of those things started being brought into the mix as well and was like ah there's so much more that needs to be explored here still so good so good so good new markdowns up to 70% off are at Nordstrom rack stores now and that means so many new reasons to rack because I always find something amazing just so many good brands because there's always something new

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45:03tougher than everybody else and also you need to be happy you're living every kid's childhood dream you're you're a star athlete in New York star athlete in New York married to a high profile person yeah all these things like got everything that I could possibly want in life and it's like it's still not getting the job well it would seem to be really hard to have a relationship with Kelsey plum if you don't know yourself and you don't understand sort of that a woman doesn't exist simply to serve you the person who has always been served by everyone because you're the great athlete no she's your equal and you need to take care of her the same way like what that's hard to learn before you're an adult yeah yeah it was like in yeah in times I see like when it was opportunities to you know step up and be there for her it's like I all it's ever been is me being centered around my fears and my pains and my difficulties to where it's like yeah you can't

46:05I have no bandwidth of no ability for anybody else no most memory to show up for her in that way yeah and also the job requires so much from you that basically you have to put everything you are into just being able to stay on top of that job so there's no room for much of anything else except you right and so it just creates a wildly selfish human being that person without introspection is not equipped to take care of someone else in a loving relationship if he's not loving himself and he doesn't know who he is either and she's like look at the look at the paradox that's been created of like all from since a young kid it's been like pleasing people like um looking to like show up externally and all these things like the intention was to if I take care of them or um impress them or do good by them then I will get something in return but all that had ever done is create a self-centeredness when the intentions weren't all were never really

47:08always if I look back on my intentions it was never to be like I'm just gonna be worried about me and fuck everybody else but that's what the actions became essentially did you identify a selfish or you or were you entitled you must have been entitled right you must have thought if all of your life you're getting rewards for everything that you are they are would you have described your the way this person looks back at that person you say what of him even in the most forgiving of circumstances being gentle with that person he was what um through the like the disease of addiction uh deceived himself into not being able to see that he was self-centered and everything about your life would reward self-centeredness correct because when you take care of yourself all everybody around you is giving you validation because you're the great athlete and your life in New York I would imagine New York seems to me to be a very lonely lonely place

48:13if you do not know yourself yeah and so your loneliness stretches back you've always felt like an outsider correct and so where have you come more to grips with no not quite I think where uh I have always gravitated in sports to the people that I call the weirdos because I find them most interesting and they are often loners and they often don't find other people who are like them but when they do find those people they find community you are less lonely now than you have been yeah yeah and I mean I still experience loneliness like like just taking like coming out here to Miami it's like in those almost two years of being out of the game um my relationships have grown a lot richer uh with friends and community um uh you know even with women just like friendships with women like that all of that change and just like investing in relationships and just seeing the impact that it had on me and it's like being connected to other people was like such an antidote to

49:17a lot of what I'm feeling within coming out to hear to Miami it's like damn like I'm away from those people and it's like some of the old patterns come up when I'm like away it's like I'm not communicating I'm just like the prison bar they just close back up and that's just like naturally what happens in you because that's all I've ever done this this area can be a really bad area for an addict if an addict doesn't have control of where he or she is in life like there's temptation everywhere and really easy to uh get away from the loneliness by just finding temporary friends right so staying connected to those people like it may not have been like at times as much as I would have liked to or to the depth that I would have liked to but even staying giving myself the grace to know that I'm trying to like change these patterns and staying connected it helped has helped me tremendously during this season because you know just like any other season any other life has been big highs and and and difficult lows so um but staying connected to people as always reminding me that man like this world is so much bigger and richer in my life is so much richer

50:21than that cold isolated place in my apartment I can find myself in just wallowing sometimes well what were you expecting from the Miami football experience how did it meet or not meet your expectations these are a lot of questions and where it is that you measure success in there like what was going to be a success in this dolphin season for you after a year off um I didn't know I didn't really have high expectations um coming in I was just more so thinking of the fact like okay this opportunity has been organically presented to me to step back into football and kind of restore a sense of balance in the love I have for football but also like there's this the shadow part of me that hated football because it was the what I used to gain validation and it wasn't like outside the authentic me so in a way like I resented the success in the career because it was like this is part of the mask almost this is part of like the image in the charade almost so it was like stepping back in I felt like was an opportunity from from my higher power to restore balance to

51:25that and realized like okay there are some things about football that are difficult and that I'm just like okay that you got to like grind through and experience but they're also still parts that I love and that I get excited about and get energized by and so just trying to hold to that perspective um you know I think it's what this season provided me uh getting getting in and showing up to training camp with like like there was I was not preparing myself in any way physically to come back to this this was like a couple weeks before training camp where it was like um I think I'm gonna do this because I went uh frank smith is like he was my tight end coach like the best years of my career and he uh just invited me out to one of the OTA practice which was like come visit come hang out like I want you to see you haven't been here since I've been here so come check it out and I went to the practice and then left from there and I was just kind of like why do I feel like I'm being pushed back in this direction now um and so kind of trusting that and thinking like I get in get to the team and um actually look like rapture like July 4th to

52:29try to like you know kind of get my body back into it so you're basically you're the smile in your face indicates to me that while you probably weren't a fat slob you weren't doing next to anything that you needed to be doing to be in kind of football shape like so so they picked you up off the scrap heat because they know you were good a few years ago and they're like we can refurbish this quote unquote head case and you're like I'm gonna get off the couch and do this I guess I am and now you're gonna send your body through navy seal military training to punish yourself you're not in any way ready to do what a football schedule demands no the first uh at the end like the second week of being with the team and training like doing like a speed workout like I damn you're like blow my hip off of my almost tear my like hip flexor from my quad or like my feet yeah you immediately got hurt and weren't available when I was telling everybody down here wait till you see wall or wait till you see him walk through your second there I didn't know that you weren't training though I figured yeah I thought you were coming back in the mind the right mind frame to dominate a season but you basically are just let's let's see if I can polish up the

53:31remainder of my adult life as an actual grown up now I'm gonna see if I can go get a job and and idiotically you try to start a football season in no way physically prepared for right yeah so it's like amazing arrogance from you really honestly to think that you could do physically NFL football train you know what it's like it's not like you didn't know what it takes for the body to think you could just pick that up again at thirty three right or thirty two right thirty yeah so it's like um missing like the entirety of training camp and then um I think it's the first three games and then come up to the Jets game I think I had like three practices and so I'm like going into the game like I have no idea how this is going to go I you know we're just going to see like in those practices I was like effective and it was like okay this is like riding a bike in a way now that my body's gonna be effective when you're 60 you're a really good physically talented tight end it's impossible to come to cover you right and so I go out into even like the

54:31pregame warmth of the Jets games like that I'm like yeah I have no idea how this is going to go like I'm really about to get I was laying in my bed um in the gap between like the morning meetings and like go into the stadium I'm like this is really happening today like this is just really about to go down and then go into the game and having the game go the way that it went was just like it's completely surreal two touchdowns and you don't really feel still like you're in shape necessarily right like you right you're you're basically playing NFL football games not far removed from whatever video games on the couch were yeah with your body for and depressed for for and divorced and going through all of that you are basically languishing in whatever it was was some real darkness for a year and a half of not taking care of yourself um well I mean I would say there was darkness early on after like right around my retirement and the divorce and everything but things really started to to change I mean like I was really enjoying my life and

55:34the growth that I was seeing um just in like how I relate to myself and other people uh was seeing a lot of growth in that um to the point where it was like yeah like I was like oh man I really like this is something that I feel like I need to do to kind of heal that um relationship to a football but I was I was like unheard of thriving in my life before that and so it's just like yeah it was a shock throwing myself back into oh I see what you're here so you had gotten to the other side of the prison of growth and now we're developing meaningful relationships with others while also taking care of yourself yeah I mean I guess in a way it's like um trying to like this inner guide in me um starting to trust that more and more and it's like okay I don't I don't necessarily know how I feel that it's pushed me in this direction but it is and I'm just going to follow it like and and and see what happens and yeah it's been met with difficulties but it's like that game um and you know multiple spots throughout the season it felt like

56:38you know this is the this is the joy of football that um I remember in being you know connected to teammates and coaches and everything and it's like yeah of course like not doing the training and stuff was like what brought about the difficulties that I faced in the season um a hundred percent but it's like to go back out there and feel like what I went into this season for to restore that I find there were big steps taken in um that direction and also like you said like measuring success and seeing my value like a lot of that came from prior years of like statistics and metrics and um fantasy points and shit like that but this year it's like you know um the the stats and the numbers and the targets and all that stuff like wasn't what it used to be but it's like seeing like okay I more my value is like um just the presence that I bring in each and every day and like being around people and like having an impact on like younger guys on the team and um and just like through the ways that I work through the ways that I relate to my teammates and the efficiency with which I take advantage of opportunities that that come my way

57:43like that's all I ever did before it was like it was just a higher quantity higher frequency of opportunities this year wasn't the same but it's like I've always proud of myself on the efficiency that's like Georgia Tech triple option football I'm not getting 10 targets again but if I get three if it's like I'm hitting a lottery so it's like bring that mindset of efficiency to that in presence to that and not being so caught up in like when my opportunities are coming but it's just like I'm part of a team and part of a group how am I elevating the environment that I'm in is how I try to measure my value now and I feel like I've been able to connect to that whereas before I never even they just sounded so fucking cheesy to me before it's like nah I need these yards in these numbers or I fucking suck and uh and now it's like I sit here with whatever my statistical output was from the season I have no idea what it was but it's like I feel proud of that like from what my circumstances were coming back into the game and what I was able to oh but it's so freeing though never mind whether it's six touchdowns or not like it's so freeing it's not the what you're describing sounds like the area that you felt like you were thriving was just because

58:47for the first time in your life you'd found your actual identity and it felt really comfortable to care about that person like that person and and have the time to share yourself with the people who would then experience and enjoy the vulnerability like so you come back to football as somebody who is more stable more himself and and can measure success with not numbers but like did I enjoy it did I push myself did I try my best and and now the measurements are all your own right and so by that there's no way to describe this season as a lack of success if that's how you're doing the measurements right but the the season was a bit of a disaster not for you but for the team right everybody gets fired and I don't I don't even know what your relationship right now is with football if you're if you want to play again if you want to play for the dolphins like if you've gotten to the place where no that was a imagine imagine how many touchdowns I could have if I wasn't just coming off the couch because I didn't know that I needed to do this a little better yeah yeah I'm definitely yeah that's definitely a lot of what I've been thinking like throughout

59:51the season there was kind of like you could I can feel myself drifting back and forth between like I feel like I could do this for however long um and then it's like you know the the injuries and frustrations are like I can't keep doing this to myself and floating back and forth so now is like the time that I have to sit with both parts kind of have like a board of directors meeting with both parts of me and uh and be like okay like what what are what are we doing here like let's look at the pros and cons of each of these directions and uh and we can make a decision from there but playing football again and starting to lay the foundation going somewhere investing in my training um with professionals that can direct my performance and have me be able to take on that load is uh something that I'm considering um but uh yeah this is a time for me to kind of reflect on that well this is the time though that all football players are always closest to quitting because the 17 weeks is terrible and you never ask a guy immediately after the season whether he's

1:00:56thinking of playing again next season because none of them want to play next season when they think of everything it's going to take to how physically you hurt now which all of you are some level of broken after 17 weeks and this is the worst possible time to ask you that question and get a hopeful response for next season anybody who's just finished a losing season correct yeah but you sound hopeful like you sound like somebody who knows uh what he wants better than he ever has yeah much better than I ever have and so what is that right now when you think of what the next few years look like independent of football like the areas of growth that you're insisting on are where so that you can nourish yourself best um it's still it's still for me it's like the the curiosity and the kindness towards myself and the difficulties that I still experience and any like pain points discomforts that come up or any um behaviors that I feel like I could be doing better

1:01:57in um it's just having that lens toward myself and um you know staying in communication with people at all times that I love and then I care about people that hold me accountable and that um push me to be better it's like that always has to be a constant for me to thrive in any realm and it's like that's what's gonna prepare me to you know whenever one day the opportunity presents itself to be able to you know care for other people or care for a family care for my seed uh at some point like whenever the opportunity presents itself like these are the opportunities that are training for me to have a fulfill life because there is no fulfill life without um being able to um relate lovingly vulnerably openly with other people and at first has to start with me so it's like continuing to build on that foundation of that loving kind nature toward myself um everything benefits from that you're more ready now to love someone correctly in a relationship that builds a life than you've

1:02:59ever been because of everything that you've gone through the last 18 years right the first 15 years before that less so but the last 18 years of your life have all been a journey so you this is the most evolved prepared version of Darren Waller to actually share himself in a real and meaningful relationship without out so you said that in 2017 going into therapy and applying your willfulness toward the taking care of yourself it felt like getting high it you're loving yourself is basically what it is you're doing in all of the years of therapy that you have done since uh and it's a broad question what would you say is uh some of the greatest wisdom that you have accrued over a decade of examining yourself and and learning some of the things that you need and don't need from your life um i would say uh a lot of my early approaches to like therapy and like doing the work that has kind of changed my life it's like there's a lot of fixing that i need to do i need to fix myself like which has like an undertone of like there's pieces of me that are like broken uh and in some

1:04:03ways you can look at it and say that's the truth but it's like um we all have like a shadow i don't know if you've ever heard that concept before but um there's this uh psychologist named Carl Jung and he has this quote that always sticks with me he says until you make the unconscious conscious it will direct your life and you will call it fate and so there is these all these parts of me that i was never conscious of like those shadow parts like the the version of me when i was a kid and i was hiding all the coat cans and still in uh taking money up the purse and like doing all these all these things there's always this shadow part of me that i always had a um a resentment towards like a hatred towards it like like that needs to go away that i got to get that out of there but in therapy i feel like i've realized that there has to be an element of like befriending that shadow and looking at those parts it's like this shadow was really just showing me areas in which i could be freer uh areas in which i could have like a much more whole um parts of myself because it's like learning basically learning to love like not only this healthier um you know

1:05:07more put together version of myself but also those broken versions those hurting versions those um lost versions of myself and um finding like a like a congruence there like a love for those things so in in shifting away from i need to fix things by myself but it's more so like i'm just becoming more whole with all of me and all that i've ever been and so there's all types of you know taxes to help you get there but just do a lot of writing a lot of questions a lot of silent reflection a lot of putting my phone down a lot of walking in nature a lot of things that just like slow me down from where's the next high where's the next high the instant gratification is like let me slow down so i can feel what's coming from my body and reflect on these things and get to know those parts of myself it's just like bringing those things to the surface if i never went back into the work to bring my real authentic childhood experience to the surface those unconscious parts were continued to direct my relationships my direct my relationship with football and that

1:06:07continue to constitute that feeling of being trapped whereas bringing those things to the surface forming a relationship with those parts it's like now i can it's not an enemy it's more so an ally something that's you know on my side and that i've learned to to love so now it's like when i feel like triggered or experiences that that may want to push me to act in those ways it's i can have more compassion for myself and less shame for myself because that shame we've been talking about shame the whole time like that shame has been on me my whole life it's never shaming myself to do better has never turned into me doing better or living better um and so it's like finding ways to eliminate that shame um and love like i said love those versions of myself but yeah the most important thing for me is bringing those things to the surface and as opposed to trying to avoid them or just feel like it's something that you need to fix what a treasure man like when you're talking about conscious that way you're basically just saying that the gift is that i've gotten to know myself and i kind of like him like and all of it not the part not the shadow part

1:07:13too because i'm gonna be forgiving and gentle with myself i'm gonna be kind to myself like that's an on in terms of the happiness pie chart what you're talking about there and being present and conscious like not that we all have it solved every day but like obviously that feels to you less lost than the previous incarnation of yourself do you need uh any daily practices that you have to put in place to sort of help you to to remind you of how it is to stay within a gentle place to yourself like where you're not gonna relapse or you're gonna you're gonna have not just the accountability of friendships and others who care about you but things that you have to do to make sure that you don't fall uh absolutely i mean sometimes it can be exhausting of thinking like all the things i need to do to kind of like approach the day from like a healthy baseline but um it's definitely like um prayer meditation in the morning um i need to uh uh walk a walk outside at some point during the day um does numbers for me um there's a lot of journaling um i saw somebody on a tick

1:08:19talk they put it in the term i guess the term is called raw dogging now um i guess it used to always just mean like sex with no condom but now it's like they no internet now it's like um having time your day where you're they call it raw dogging life so it's like time where it's like i said my i said 30 minutes time and put my phone down i just sit there because like a lot of what my makeup is it's just like the next high like the next thing like something to get me out of sitting with things and so it's like that 30 minute window just like absolutely nothing um not even meditation it's just still with yourself and be comfortable with yourself even if it's uncomfortable do not get distracted right meditation is outside of that so it's like um all those things uh regular meeting attendants um it's in person meetings like there's young kids out here that um and uh they're just like oh a guy it's like older than me that been sponsoring throughout the season and so like taking them through bookwork and helping them with their recovery journey like being of service helps me out rewarding tremendously um and then

1:09:21going to meetings stay in touch and make doing the work that um you know my sponsor is giving me still being a student and um and trying to keep some kind of creative rhythm creative flow like that's where the music comes up for me uh you know i'm sure a lot of people see the the athlete doing music it's like man it's like trying to just trying to uh be cool and rap but it's like not like that level of expression for me is healing on so many ways um because it's like you know i think a lot of people know this only have called top play and it's like okay cool but like if you look at the rest of my discography it's like i'm pouring shit out on the songs well how do how do you feel so so what happens so you decide after you get divorced there's the whatever the public embarrassment is of all of that but you put your feelings into song you made a video and then of course what ends up happening is the internet drags you for look at this guy he's going to show everybody his heartbreak through song and he's going to try and break make his pain creative how did you experience or did you even care about what the reaction was to any of that um that was a powerful experience for me in just like um like the growth with like

1:10:27always needing the validation of people um i look back on that experience i don't regret sharing the music in any way if there was one thing i would have changed i would have um put forth like extra uh context because in the context of the video um because like the song was called um who knew her perspective so the basis of the song is i'm writing the idea was writing if uh if the because a lot of similar patterns and relations were my life so if the woman had the had the pain and was writing a song to me what would that song be and so by the perspective being i'm singing from the woman's perspective in the video i'm the woman that's experiencing the pain whereas like people clipped it and put it out and it was like oh like i stabbed in the back but it's like i was trying to be more artistic even more artistic than you thought he was trying to be but it's not quite as heavy a hand that is just uh there's a backstabbing and this it like you wanted it to have nuance you wanted it to have layers you wanted it to to i you were not an innocent

1:11:30in what happened in that relationship but but so you made the piece of art and then just dealt with you didn't even pay much attention to what it is the reaction was because the it was about expressing yourself and it's about self-validation yeah and at the time um i had a phone i was called a light phone i had got um probably a couple of months before my divorce but um so i wasn't even on the internet i had like friends and be like yo like steven a smith is talking about this and i was like oh fuck i was not anticipating uh this because you know i'll put music out and people that are fans of me or follow me like like my music but it was never like a big thing um so that was an interesting experience but um but yeah it was just like for me i was like i'm onto the next thing i'm making like okay if this caused a stir like great like i'm not going to be continuing to make this particular type of song going forward like i'm gonna make the hard hitting songs i'm gonna make but i'm also gonna like continue to i guess put who i am on these songs that's the only way i really know how to create is like channeling what i'm experiencing and um the idea

1:12:33as i feel like i'm getting from the universe and and and putting them out and and trying to be real people the same way i'm trying to be real on this microphone here you know you mentioned anxiety and i don't know what your relationship with is it with it is now or what it was but it's something that has gripped you since you were young right without being able to identify what it is so what is your relationship now with anxiety i see anxiety now more of like a second-hand emotion um a lot of times i'm feeling anxiety there's something in me that hasn't been expressed or um needs to um be explored more and i'm anxious because i've i'm maybe back in that mow a little bit of not sitting with what i'm feeling or something that needs attention i'm deceiving myself in some way from thinking that something oh so it's just a symptom you recognize it now as a feeling that's just a symptom as opposed to something that needs to be medicated wait a minute what do i need to address anxiety is just showing me there's something

1:13:35here that needs to be more of a guide for me now it's not just like when i'm sitting and i'm like there are things that i'm sitting with and um you know addressing them facing them head on talking to people about them i'm sitting in my apartment or like when i'll sit in the car on the right here i'm cool like i'm i'm chilling like i'm this is great like the anxiety for me has definitely just a guide to be like hey there's something here um that we need to communicate on set a boundary on um right more about like it's just pointing me to something now where do you think uh the next couple of years are going to take you and where do you want them to take you do you um uh i mean i definitely want them to take me deeper into it's a daunting question for anybody by the way so like i'm not i know i'm putting something on your lap here uh it's just because you've arrived at such a place of adult growth and you've learned so many big things through

1:14:35emotional physical and public pain that i would assume that there's some enthusiasm about whatever the discovery is that's up ahead especially if you've gotten to a place where you found your identity and you could be like well i'm not just a football player i can come back and conquer football but is it really what i want to do or or do i want to go connect with other human beings because football does make that harder like you have to pay attention it's it's obsessive-compulsive in a way that will take you away from all of your relationships yeah so um yeah i think whichever way i decide to go on on that decision it's um keep in relationship to the forefront um allowing myself to uh find a way to um you know date in a healthy way that's that's slow and um you know respectful of not only how i'm trying to live in my boundaries but um other people as well um definitely trying to continue to explore like my creative side my musical side like i've been making music for 10 years by the same time i still feel like i'm just at the very beginning of what my creative journey is like so continuing to explore that um definitely

1:15:42um traveling seeing more of the world like when i was retired i went to Japan for my birthday i just went out there and was out there for like two weeks um and that was amazing for me um just being out more nacey more national parks and uh just being outside like more things like that you know um did you go to Japan on your own by the way because i don't and did you go with others or did you go by yourself um this videographer that i work with he um he has like a part-time job with american airlines so he was able to get like a forty three dollar flight from New York to Tokyo so he came for like four days five days the the reason i bring it up is just well he came to film or he came to just be with you uh a little bit of both okay because the traveling alone is there's a certain bravery in that uh yeah but uh the other uh the last like ten nine ten days of my trip i was there with myself but you were there to do it as an adventure and an exploration of let let me see if i can be with myself for ten days in a foreign land and what'd you learn it was amazing this amazing i had some like uh guides set up to where like they could take me on some tours

1:16:46like that but it was incredible to go out there and uh do something that i wanted to do and experience that just as me not worry about when i'm gonna get back and get to the next thing but just be present to well the present thing is a funny one because you mentioned that the last time you're on with us and i could talk to you for a long time but i'm gonna let you go here in a moment and i appreciate both the honesty and the amount of time but you really seem to have learned that in the distraction of always getting off until the next thing there's only joy in the present if you're grateful about the moment that you have even if it's just walking around your neighborhood and stillness because that's the moment that you have not off to the next conquering the next hole that can't be filled the next accomplishing letting life come to you yeah you said it i mean it's uh if you i don't know how often we think about this in general as a society but um we think about um you know the life we want to live getting there wherever there is but any of those moments that you want to experience or that you've seen somebody else experience

1:17:50all those experiences were had in the present moment and so if you don't build like the the muscles to be it and train yourself being present in the moment then you're not a lot you're gonna be allowed yourself to be grateful for when those moments come like if i don't learn how to appreciate like my football like for me an example was uh i started to fall in level like the training and just like the small things like when i got reinstated it was getting reinstated into the league it's just like the actual training to being out on the field the routes like seeing myself improve like i was grateful to just be having that experience um if i wasn't present to that and just thinking like man i man i'm just ready for my shot to come whenever i need my my opportunity to come if i wasn't working being present there and appreciate that experience when i get to a hundred catches in a season or whatever the output is it's like i won't necessarily be grateful for that i'll be thinking like oh man fucking Justin Jefferson had 120 catches because i always think it's got to be the next experience i got to be better i got to be on to the next when really it's like the beauty of everything that's

1:18:53happening is when um here i'm being where my feet are um and that's when life is at its easiest and that's when i want to start a t-shirt company with you a spiritual t-shirt company where i just it's a t-shirt that just reads there is here there is here whatever it is you're looking for it's here right now i feel like you have this wisdom that you're carrying around with you uh where you you there is great wisdom and understanding that right that right now is the moment and you get in your own way when you're always looking off into the distance because you think there's something better over there there is here there's something musical in that i think you can do that it's well it's here for you right there is here for you right now like this whatever midlife crisis is whatever is the growth that people feel in their forties and fifties because they have an examined and they're worth like you did it a little earlier than most yeah let it let that be the catalyst that is supposed to be congratulations uh on the success the return to football and uh locating your identity and being gentle with it uh really enjoyed this as i knew i would because

1:19:57you you're uncommon among your peers most of the the people in modern day sports and not willing to uh open themselves up to the public this way so thank you for doing that sir appreciate you have me