Serial Killer Documentary - The Hunt for the Camden Ripper

0:00I come down here to about four at three o'clock in the morning, I think. I walked over here. I come around the bin, sir. Now, we'll look at what someone's doing. I put on a black bag, I would like that. And I was on this. And I thought there were two fish. I said there were two big sanders, something. And I opened the bag. And there it worked. I won't make a pair of woman's legs. That's why I did. The discovery of human body parts in Camden, North London, in December 2002, launched one of the most shocking murder investigations of modern times. It would also raise serious questions about how a mentally ill man with allegations of assault, rape and murder against him could be freed to kill and kill again.

1:11As I remember, the week had been relatively quiet. But it was a Monday morning. And I received a call probably about, called at the 10, 9.45, to say that some suspected human remains had been found in a bin in the Camden area of North West London. It certainly looked to me like some part of an arm or leg pathologist came down and confirmed that he was looking at a part of a human lower leg. Immediately underneath that bag was another almost identical black and green plastic bag with the ties. That contained a torso and right arm. The legs and torso were moved to the mortuary at St. Pancras Hospital,

2:14where they were examined by pathologist Dr. Freddie Patel. It was certainly clear to me that we were dealing with more than one body, therefore more than one victim. I mean, one would have been enough. And when you're dealing with two dismembered bodies, you know, so a murder inquiry kicked in. All rubbish collection due that day was immediately halted and the whole estate was cordoned off. House to house inquiries began. A mobile police station was set up and specialist teams began a meticulous search of every single bag of rubbish on the estate. We had two lower legs and then half a torso. No identifying marks, of course. We didn't know what we were dealing with apart from, I think we were safe to say they were female body parts. As much as we knew that first day.

3:19When that happened, the place was raided basically, and everything was sealed off. You know, you think what's going on here? It's only when I said, when I come home here one day, and I see the oldy holdings and all that round. And it was just neighbours who's been all chatting about it and talking about it, and they're pressing and out the pub and all that business. I've got a day I've had a drumming round of Swiss for a few weeks. We have no hands, no heads, we've got small body parts that we're still looking for. So we had to consider the drains. But then just cost the road from Royal College Street. We've got the canal, and that would be an ideal place to lose some body parts if you so wish to. We also had a lot of rubbish that had been removed already from Royal College Street and the surrounding area. And they've gone to the landfill sites.

4:20So we had to get our search officers to go to the landfill site and search hundreds of tons of rubbish in the hope that we might find or parts of the bodies that we already had. And did you? No, we didn't. 36 hours after the first body parts had been found, a search of the estate had uncovered no more human remains. But as night fell on the second day, the police widened their search across the road and into Plenda Street. In a very short time of a search being undertaken in Plenda Street, further human remains were discovered. They've been dismembered very carefully and probably with a great deal of precision and a great deal of thought.

5:22That was a torso, right arm, left arm and a foot. There was nothing panarchy about the way that these victims had been dismembered. Suspicion on the estate quickly focused on one man. There's a lot of neighbours in that estate that were happy to tell us that they thought the track called Mr Hardy living at number four was a strange individual. Because he's coming and goings different hours of the day and night with different ladies and they suggested we should be looking that direction. When the police asked me if there were any suspicious people living, any people that were undesirable or whatever, the only person I could think of was Mr Hardy. He was a person of interest. I couldn't put any more strongly than that because there was nothing to suggest at all that this individual had been involved in any way in what I was currently investigating.

6:32But I did know him through something that had happened a year before. I had a structured plan of how I was going to adopt my house to house strategy. What I wanted was proactive entry. When the time came to knock on Mr Hardy's door, the police doubled their manpower and were prepared to break in. But the door was unlocked. The door is a jar basically like this. As we come in, we've got the bathroom on the right here. Straight in front of us, the lock bedroom door and along the bottom, along the bottom is the set of what appears to be tracksuit bottoms or something similar to that. We don't know what we're going to find when we open the door. There is a smell which is quite apparent. The uniform officers forced the door open.

7:33We've got the bed in the corner with a chair with a desk, a wardrobe in this corner. And about here is a square shaped package wrapped in twine and black plastic bags with the hex or and knives on top of it. It's quite apparent that that package is likely to be a human torso. Anthony John Hardy had lived in the flat for three years but was now on the run. He'd been seen just hours before and police believed that he was still in London. They immediately launched one of their largest ever manhunts.

8:34Following the discovery of a female torso in his flat, the police identified Anthony Hardy as their prime suspect in the Camden bin bag murders. Hardy was a 51-year-old divorcee with four children and a history of alcoholism, mental illness and allegations of sexual and indecent assaults. He'd been imprisoned three times for car crime and theft and a 1995 had been sectioned under the Mental Health Act. He was also known to pick up prostitutes from nearby kings cross. Hardy had said that one day he'd be famous. A murder hunt is either way to find out if I'm a victim. The police began a massive search for Hardy. As part of the manhunt, they also searched through hours of CCTV footage from the estate, from hospitals and from Hardy's local supermarkets.

9:44We've had people ring you and saying, I have seen that man and he's around the area. We were quite confident that he was stood around the area. Why he hadn't left, I don't know. We alerted a number of local hospitals because he needed medication. We didn't think he traveled too far because most of his medication, but we could see he was still in the flat. We didn't think he had a car. Hardy was taking seven types of medication to treat his diabetes and manic depression. He was also an outpatient at St. Luke's Mental Hospital in North London. Anthony Hardy was known to us and the services from 1995 and had various contact with different aspects of our services in the intervening years. I think there were concerns that he had bipolar disorder where he may be subject to mood swings, elation or even lower mood.

10:55I don't think it was that clear that there was a very active concern around that aspect of his condition because for quite a long period he appeared to be well and was recovering and doing well. I suppose we all have neighbours acquaintances, people we see and we look at them and think, he or she's a bit strange. You almost don't go beyond just that initial feeling and certainly even if you think that about somebody you don't automatically think he or she is strange so he or she is obviously a mass murderer or a serial killer. I just was like, I'll just went like jelly. The fact that I was just a foot away from him in the refuse bin room knowing now what he did.

11:58It was weird, you're anything could have been gone on behind his door because he just wouldn't talk to anybody. They're strangers to me, the likes of him, these new people moving in there and they didn't come from around here. As they searched the flat, the police also got their first major lead. The police had already found a net card and by marrying up the net card with the receipt for which the points were put on we were able to determine that at that time a quantity of those industrial bags had been purchased. When we knew the time from the receipt that the bags had been purchased we were able to look at the close circuit television footage from the store and we were able to see Hardy purchasing those bags. Hardy had also been recorded by a camera directly above the wheelie bin in Plenda Street.

13:01The CCTV footage of Plenda Street is quite bizarre in that all you are seeing is a man going to a bin and putting a bag of rubbish in it. When you watch it you are watching a person with a bag that contains part of a human being, nonchalantly putting it into a wheelie bin and walking away. We knew from the CCTV footage at the University College Hospital that Hardy had changed his appearance. That photograph was released and I think was from Page News the next day. And everybody was talking about it because this picture has been newspaper. And then they asked me that if that was the guy I served and I said yes it was him because he had the same cap.

14:06After two days on the run Hardy was recognised by a retired policeman in a secluded smoking room in Great Ormond Street Hospital. The door opens and walks Mr Hardy carrying his worldly goods and channels with him. It's down in the corner behind my sons, finished a cigarette and it's time to go back to the ward and walking back. My son says to us did you see that guy coming and I said what the bin bag man? He said yes. He says is he, isn't it? I said I think so. He says what are you going to do about it? I said I'm going to do bigger all about it. We've got enough trouble and no plates at the moment. And we walk along towards the lift. He says he's got to do something about it. I've heard nothing I've got a lot of security and he's actually sitting reading a paper with the actual story on it. I see this guy here sitting downstairs. There was quite a large turn out of the constructions, constructively that night there.

15:12Hardy was arrested and taken to Colin Del Police Station in North London. Officers dealing with him said he was calm and polite. With their prime suspect and custody, the police began a detailed forensic search of his flat in Camden. It didn't look a conventional residence but maybe there's a bit of bias in that because I know what else was in there. The flat itself was quite unkempt. It was not a pleasant place to be or live. The kitchen is normal. The plates hadn't been washed and food around. But then if we go into the lounge, they're in the centre, a couple of televisions, or perfect order like a shrine. And that's exactly what I believe it was, Mr Hardy's shrine, which was made up of all these 70 or so pornographic videos.

16:15And the televisions that you used to watch them. We have DNA opportunities nowadays which are so helpful, expensive but helpful. In an attempt to discover what had happened in the flat, the police employed a cutting edge forensic system called Lumenol. Lumenol is a process that when it's applied to surfaces and objects will show us whether or not there has been blood there. The Lumenol work actually showed us blood virtually all over that flat. From the bathroom, we're probably, they may have been whatever washed or whatever happened, where bits might have been put into bags. There were drag marks all the way into, I suppose if one of a better were the dismemberment room.

17:22The enormity, the absolute enormity of what that man did, becomes so, so apparent. The heads and the hands of both victims were still missing, but DNA samples from the first torso identified her as Brigitte Maclennan, a 34 year old woman who lived in Camden and worked as a prostitute. The other torso, found in Hardy's flat, had breast implants with unique serial numbers. The body was identified as Elizabeth Valad, a nottingham woman who'd been working the streets in King's Cross. The police came in and they just said, we think we may have some bad news for you. We think your daughter has been murdered. I couldn't believe that it happened. I mean, I still think she's alive and I still think she'll come to the house as she did sometimes and announced.

18:25Had she come for Christmas, she would still have been alive. But as the police, she was in the wrong place, wrong time. Obviously, when you die, you know, you know, you spread leaves, you... But she just wasn't... Her body wasn't there. I think this was the coming to terms with, you know, where was the rest of her body. I think that's, you know, to think... You know, to never see her again, a beautiful face. Now, it is... You never come to terms with it. The police were soon convinced that Elizabeth and Brigitte were not the only women to die at Hardy's hands.

19:30Anthony Hardy had been arrested for the bin bag murders in Camden, but it wasn't the first time he'd been in trouble with the police. Almost a year earlier, in January 2002, Sergeant Nick Spinks had received a call from one of Hardy's neighbours. A lady rang to say that her front door had been profited, so we went there. And when we got there, we went in and had a chat with her and reporting the criminal damage. The graffiti appeared to have been signed at the bottom with the letter T. As it had been pulled through the letterbox and some of it had been spilled, spilled on the outside. And the footprints led from there straight to an address that we went and knocked on the door of. And although I'm sure there was somebody at the time, there was no answer to the door when we knocked. We went back to the address an hour or two hours or so later and knocked on the door again.

20:30And after a short while, the door was answered by Tony Hardy. He wasn't pleased to see us. We asked him a few basic questions about the damage upstairs and having denied it initially, he admitted to it. It was a hands-up effectively as far as he was concerned, to the criminal damage. The other bedroom was locked. And when he was asked about that room, he just said that it was a room that was sublet to a lady who wasn't there. And she locked the door as she left it. We started to pack up bits and pieces and take them out. He did ask to wear an anorak, which was unreasonable because it was cold. I searched it and in the middle of the anorak, in the lining, I found a key. The officer that was with me took the key, proper security, he checked to see whether or not the key fitted the door that we'd previously established belonged to a flatmate.

21:35And sure enough, it did. The door was opened. I looked into the bedroom. And there was this naked corpse on the bed with a towel over its head. When I looked back at Mr Hardy, he was sat down. He was sweating profusely. His mood had changed. He denied or acknowledged that he knew anybody was in there. That point he was arrested for murder. The most striking thing about Sally was that on the wall, behind her, was clearly blood on the wall, which then came down the wall to where her head was laying on the bed. But then we find some clothing in the room as well. And that is Sally's clothing and that upper top has a hood on it. And that hood has blood inside it where one would expect to find blood if that hood was on Sally's head when the injury was caused.

22:42So I would deduce that Sally was wearing that when the injury was caused and since death it's been removed from her. And I merely asked myself why. To the police, the evidence seemed overwhelming. Sally's body was in a locked room and Hardy had hidden the key. On the floor was a bucket of warm water and a sponge. There was a bite mark on her right thigh and police believed this was caused by Hardy. Blood from her head wound covered the bed and she appeared to have been posed with her face covered. The police sent the body to pathologist Dr. Freddie Patel for a post-mortem. The cause of death was given as coronary heart disease, which we can refer to as natural causes, certainly not suspicious. And so to that extent we were told there isn't a case for us to investigate. Suspecting murder, the police took the rare step of requesting a second post-mortem.

23:45Once again, Dr. Freddie Patel concluded that death was by natural causes, adding that there were no marks of violence. At the brief inquest into Sally's death, the coroner stated that there was no evidence of foul play or third party intervention. The police were forced to drop the investigation. The police were forced to drop the investigation. Had the post-mortem brought any other result than that of natural causes, then of course all of those peculiarities would have been pursued. He was dealt with for the damage that had initially led the officers to his flat. I get paid to investigate and explain deaths, suspicious deaths, murders, not deaths by natural causes. All those decisions are important decisions which are not made by me. They're made by...

24:53Yep, that's right, not made by me. Hardy was returned to the care of St. Luke's mental hospital in North London, and sectioned again under the mental health act. Staff found him to be a model patient, charming, cooperative, fully engaged in all aspects of his care and treatment programme. I think that was... for what we now know has ensued. That is quite a surprise. You know, staff have said to me that they found his presence to be one of kind of creepiness, kind of a vague sense of evil.

25:59He was doing what he was doing, but charming, cooperative and so on nonetheless. As the investigation went on, we learnt more about his medical treatment, and it became apparent that the consultant treating him believed that he was a danger to women and a danger to prostitutes. Hardy was regularly allowed to leave St. Luke's on day release. Unknown to the hospital, in August 2002, he took a train out of London, raped a prostitute and was back before curfew. When a person does have day leave, this is specified in terms of what time the person will leave the ward, where they will be going and what time they will be returning. Now of course, it is possible that an individual could choose to say, well, I'm not going to where I said I was going, jump on a train and go somewhere else.

27:05If we don't know, and we subsequently discover that we've been lied to, it's very little we can do about that. Hardy's doctors were concerned that he should not be released. His doctor at St. Luke's, Ian Collis, gave six warnings that he was vulnerable to relapse, posed a high risk of violence, and that women and prostitutes are at particular risk. Dr. Collis knew that in 1982, Hardy had frozen a bottle of water and clubbed his wife's head while she slept. He then dragged her to a bath and tried to drown her. For years after their divorce, he stalked her, hid microphones in her house and told a psychiatrist that he wanted to kill her. More recently, there were numerous allegations by other women of sexual assaults, attacks and a rape. Despite all this, Hardy's release was imminent. When someone was detained under the mental health act, they have a right of appeal.

28:05All the first occasion around about May 2002, there was a hearing and it was considered that sufficient improvement had not been made and there were still good grants to continue detention. There was a later hearing in November, an experienced panel of three, heard and considered the appeal and in this occasion they thought substantial improvement had been made, sufficient to discharge him from section of the mental health act. The panel concluded that while Hardy was mentally ill, he also had a natural human right to be treated in the surroundings which will encourage and support his own efforts. An opinion was asked for from the forensic mental health services, which was a fairly detailed account of the entire history of this man. This detailed report on Hardy warned that he had an untreatable personality disorder, adding there is strong evidence of risk of reoffending and he's likely to cause others serious physical or psychological harm.

29:16But when the panel met to discuss Hardy's case, this report was lying unopened in the post room. It had been there for two days. That report wasn't available for the managers in their hearing and it's questionable as to whether it would have made any particular difference. Hardy was released from section on November the 4th. The mental health trust failed to tell the police that they'd let him out. Why does he come back here when he's had a dead woman in his house for so long went from him? Camden Council should be aware of their history and if not why not, because they are living amongst ordinary residents on the estate. Over the next eight weeks, Hardy's behaviour spiraled out of control. He kept his weekly appointments at St Luke's to collect medication, but he also went secretly to University College Hospital and was prescribed U-Premar, an alternative to Viagra.

30:22He wrote to prostitutes asking for dominant sex, saying he was independently wealthy and looking for a special relationship. And he walked near by King's Cross and picked women up on the streets. King's Cross is a slime place. There's pimps, drug dealers, prostitutes, it's a ship. It's a ship place to be because when you go with a ponder, you've not only got to watch yourself with a ponder, you've got lots of drug dealers, you have the girls. The ship, he's got the ship. He's some right freaks out there. Toilf rings. They're in the walk, the ill or stupid sex. He was seen around Camden taking pictures of women in bars and looking the sofas, saying he liked the leather. He watched videos of simulated rapes and advertised for a female lodger. In mid-December, he travelled to the Midlands to be massaged by a woman called Sarah, who says he raped her.

31:28As he was raping me, he was crushing me and stopping me to breathe. Weezing all of the air out on me. His whole chest was pushing me, pushing me down. He's getting off on the fact that he was trying to kill me. But at that point of ejaculation, his eyes, something I cannot describe, the look in that guy's eyes. I know, if I didn't move, that second I'll be dead. Five days later, Elizabeth Valerde's boyfriend, Neville, saw her for the last time on the streets of King's Cross. This was getting bored. She said to me, I'll only be a man, I'm just going to pop down to the cross-cutter shop to my mother's office drink. So I'm okay, I'll be here. So she went, I was there waiting half an hour, 45 minutes. She didn't return. If I'd gone to the shop with her, she'd probably be alive today. The man I killed was responsible for her death, who never approached her.

32:28In late December, Hardy went to church with a key around his neck and asked people to pray for his immortal soul. He prayed intensely with a former rector, saying a lady friend had recently died. The rector described him as being at emotional rock bottom. On Christmas Eve, with the body of Elizabeth Valerde still inside, Hardy invited Bridget McClennan to his flat to have sex at 8.45pm. She was never seen alive again. Later night over Christmas, he was seen carrying bags around the estate and muttering to himself. Screams were heard inside the block, neighbors heard drilling and thought he was doing DIY. He left his windows wide open and passes by could smell incense. Goodness knows what he was doing. I mean, I just imagine now I can imagine all sorts of things, you know. And that was even weird. I wouldn't just see him sitting on the bench over the road there. Just in a daydream staring at his own flat, it was frightened to go back into his flat.

33:36Every time I took a dog out, a dog was pulling me towards his street door. So something was wrong there. But when I realised they all, police and everything had been ran there, I realised what she must have been smelling. Must have been a stench coming out, they were open by a coating smell. If anybody had said to me that this man was dangerous, then I'm fairly clear lots of other people would have known as well. And step by step, I was able to see the whole thing. I was able to see the whole thing. If anybody had said to me that this man was dangerous, then I'm fairly clear lots of other people would have known as well. And steps would have been taken to deal with that. We cannot attend people under the Mental Health Act because of supposed adabenderness when there isn't the evidence there to support it.

34:38This is such a rare occurrence where there were not the predictors of the sort of tragic and horrendous activity. And the fact that there are no such events that have come that have ensued. It's said that most of these people got a cry for help or something. And they should be, I'm not saying it should be locked up, but it should be the councils or whatever. And look after them and make sure they get their social work or whatever they come and come to visit them properly. I think the care was comprehensive, it was well planned, it was multi-agency. And the one bit of it that probably was missing was the inactive involvement of the person. We can only work effectively with someone where there is very clear honesty and we rely on that. The police were hoping that when confronted with the evidence, Hardy would be more forthcoming about his actions and motives.

35:47The police were given 72 hours to interview Hardy. He was legally entitled to refuse to answer any questions, but police hoped that the right approach would trigger him into talking. Well the important thing is that I've got to come across as a person who's confident, a man that knows that you know that I know that you know. I know everything about you. And it was suggested that if I got to a position that he believed that I knew everything about him, then he would probably talk to me. That's a green thing, Tony would look like, lead on it, exactly the same as the one behind the pub. Do you know that being at all? No comment. Have you ever used that being Tony's? No comment, you've got to answer that being at all. No comment, you've got to be rubbish in it. No comment, you've got to be taken in rubbish out of it. No comment.

36:48Maybe that I didn't give that confident approach to him, maybe I didn't tell myself as someone that knew that he knew that I knew everything about him. But it may just be that he wasn't going to speak to us in any case. There was sort of scent in the house, which I believe came from justices, burly of justices. Is that what you like doing? No comment. Good I'd suggest, I think I'm right in doing this, the ejustics, the burly of the scent would have been to mask the smell. The smell of the body that was in your bedroom, Tony. Do you know anything about justices burning to mask the smell of the body in your bedroom, Tony? No comment. No comment. I think he probably would have enjoyed a verbal exchange, a spa, a verbal spa with either one of the interviewing teams.

37:52You know, he had a solicitor present and I don't blame the solicitor at all who had given him her view and her advice, which was to say nothing. If you have someone who is being vigorously advised to, there's a no comment strategy as their best strategy and intervention such as, my advice to you as my client would be not to it is your decision. If you're having that at every turn, then no amount of interview strategies are going to overcome that. But then if you start throwing fact fact fact fact at people and they make no comment, they're also giving up the opportunity to explain it away. And that's what I wanted to do so many times to Mr Hardy. This is a fact Mr Hardy, please, if you can, if you want to explain it away and he never did. Never gave me one explanation for any of those facts that I put to him.

38:57We were going to move the possibility to get some sort of reaction that might just result in him saying something other than, unhelpfully, new comment, no comment, was to present material such as various pictures that were put there which didn't phase him in the least. But for most people would have been abhorrent. And I'd like you to talk me through these exhibits that I'm going to show you. And tell me if they do anything for you if you're interested at all. Like that, for instance, what's that to do if you, Mr Hardy? No comment. That's the red devil's mask. On the second day of interviews, the police received two roles of film that Hardy had had processed while on the run. And we can see that blue wall and the bed in the background, that Mr Hardy is your flat, isn't it?

40:00No comment. That Mr Hardy is the dead lady, the corpse of which we fell in your bedroom, Mr Hardy, isn't it? Were our victims posed in the most ghastly way imaginable? And it could only have been by our suspect. Shot round the corner, say that you could come round and get these film processed to here because they got some adult material on it. So I said as long as it's to consent in adult, something we can do. So I think it was two roles of film he gave me, which he wanted to do it pretty quickly. I was looking at 40 plus images of two women, Elizabeth Valad and Bridget MacLennan, posing pornographically. The pathologist confirmed that in his opinion, the two women in the photographs were dead.

41:11Just as with Sally Rose White a year earlier, Hardy had covered the women's faces, this time with his baseball cap on a devil's mask. This also disguised the fact that they were dead. And not only do we have a mask on her, Mr Hardy, we've got a deal done out of the vagina. What's that do for you, Mr Hardy? How a good look. The discovery of Hardy's photographs was a breakthrough for the police, and they hope that confronting him with them would finally persuade him to talk. No, come in. Do you recognise this as your bedroom? No, come in. Let's look at this one then. It's the same lady. What have we got on that lady's head, Mr Hardy? What can you see? No, come in. We can see a baseball cap, your baseball cap, the one that you were wearing when you were arrested on Monday. They showed the victim in pornographic poses in various ways the face was covered up.

42:11You cover up the victim's face in whatever way you want, because then you can make that victim anyone. Any girl you see walking down the street, can you then get the picture out when you get back home? That is that girl now, and you can anonymise the face, and it becomes a very versatile vehicle for masturbatory fantasy. They don't want to look at the face afterwards. The face means I haven't won. All I want to see is the defeated corpse, and if the face is still looking back at me, that identity still exists. If I'm now showing in photographs of girls that we have now found dead and cut up, I want him to know that I know that these girls were actually in his premises beforehand. And I'm suggesting to him that this is overwhelming evidence against him, and that might just be what we need for him to talk to me and tell me the truth. His reaction to the photographs was bland, no reaction at all.

43:16Yesterday and the day before, you'll recall that I made a plea and so did DC Baker, passionate police you. The one thing that I had asked Alan to do was to try to get him to tell us where we could find some of the missing body parts. Can you help me with that please? No, follow me. After one of the interviews, Alan Bostock said, look, what have you done with these body parts? And Hardie's response, as I remember, it was almost sort of a gain fairly nonchalant, and he said, worst of the effect of, well, I'm sorry, Alan, but I can't remember because I was so drunk. Well, I fear the questions we have to put to you today are coming to an end. And I'm going to end with that impression of plea again, Mr Hardie. You're the only person I believe that knows where those heads and hands are. Your opportunity please to tell me now.

44:17So I can recover them for the family, not for me, Mr Hardie. What can you do for me? No, I mean... I would have felt it as a sense of achievement if I could have just got that from him, just where the heads and hands are, and I'd have been happy. No. On the first day of his trial, Anthony Hardie pleaded guilty to all three murders, and was given three life sentences. The strategic health authority launched an inquiry into why he was released from hospital, and the police are investigating Hardie's activities over the past 20 years. They're also examining the DNA of another unidentified woman that was found in his flat. Hardie is still refusing to answer any police questions.

45:19I'd be surprised if he gave a complete full and frank account of his motivations. And I don't mean it's not there, it means that he won't be wanting to tell us. I feel very angry, you know, that this man who was obviously a very highly dangerous man, was allowed to be considered to be okay, not mad, not bad, and he's allowed out of the mental hospital. I don't know how these people feel, what makes them work, or makes them tick, or what the pleasure is they derive from it. So I can't actually go there, or I can do a stampings, I just understand how people can do that. It's possible that certainly, distinctly likely, that we didn't know the whole picture, there wasn't the full sharing of what was going on.

46:22Next, the Austrian man who, after killing once, became a literary sensation as he served his time. But after his release, he went back on a murder spree, Jack Ontovega, the poet of death, straight after the break.