Richins, Guthrie, Snelling: The Full Hidden Killers Panel With Coffindaffer and Dreeke

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1:08Both sides have rested in the Corey Richards murder trial. The prosecution called nearly 40 witnesses. The defense called zero. Corey waved her right to testify, closing arguments, actually going on as we speak. We're going to break all of this down as it now goes to the jury with us to do just that. My co-host, Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program and joining us today, Jennifer Coffin-Daffer, retired FBI Special Agent. Welcome. Yeah, there's a lot here. I know we've been watching this thing. The defense has been three weeks tearing apart the prosecution's case, then rested without calling a single witness. When you put up a defense, when you think the other side already lost, at least that's typically the thought process from a defense attorney, I'm curious, Jen, let's start here. What does it tell you about the bet that they're making by not putting up any sort of defense

2:11for Corey? Well, I just think it looks so bad because he is always the defense is how we've said, we have such a robust defense that we're going to remember those words. While the robust is rogue on, so I agree with you that oftentimes that's what happens when you think you want, but it also happens when you don't have one. I can think of a very particular case where they just didn't have anything to say and anything to put up so they didn't put anything up, and I think it's as likely that that's the scenario as it is that they think they've won. Do you... Jen, I'm sorry, go ahead, Tony. Sometimes less is more. I mean, that can be the case, but I know that it's feeling that way here. What do you think, Robin? Yeah, Jen, I'm curious, too, I asked Bob this the other day, do you think the defense saw something in the jury's reactions of things that when they were doing cross that they said, like in other words, do you think they came in with an idea that they're going

3:13to put a fourth of defense in somewhere along the way? They think from their mind as well as from reading the jury that something along their shift, and it's like, hey, we got this? I think to a degree, but I wonder if it's more focused. In other words, they were more worried about putting Corion that maybe Cori had convinced them. I think any defense attorney, any attorney would say, never take the stand, but if Cori wanted to go on, that shifted perhaps with just what you're denoting, a look at those jurors, did one of them give, you know, they give signals, not purposeful signals, just how they comport themselves, looking down engaged in certain witnesses, you know, how they stare at Cori, did they decide it wouldn't be a good idea to go on? I think that's very likely. I mean, Cori was giving signals throughout the trial as well. She was, as matronally as she was trying to look, she just couldn't hold back some of those looks of, it felt like disgust, it felt like, are you serious?

4:18It felt like a teenager looking at you when you're like, no, you're not going to do that. That's not going to be something we're doing today. Seriously, dad, that's kind of how it felt with her looks. How did you, how do you, how do you think she played to the jury throughout all of this trial with Cori's little antidotal reactions? Well, I will say this, it's almost impossible, no matter what that defendant does from the chair, it's going to be looked at badly. If they smile, if they do a giggle, if they act like her, which was some, almost a school marm, blackened house on the prairie days, but it didn't come off well at all, I don't think, but I have to say for the defense, you know, there's nothing that they can do that isn't going to be read into. No matter, I mean, you know, the whole thing you're told is to just look historic as you can, to not react to anything as best you can.

5:21For the most part, she probably did that, but she just had a horrible look. They should have hair down and they should have had her look somewhat cute and appealing because she is cute. And they just blew that out of the water. Yeah. I'm not right. That's watching some of the closings to one of our listeners just chimed in about, you know, her behavior is even more demonstrative. They're in closing right now. I was watching it live before we came on and yeah, she looked, she was sending some daggers to prosecution as they're rolling through and she's having to face her life once again about what people are disclosing about her. Have you seen anything, because again, there's so many things that they're like they're replaying the 911 call and I know I have my take on it and like you said, everyone's going to be super analyzing every aspect and every element of everything she does understand all these calls. Did anything stand out to you with their 911 call since they're playing it again that you think the jury's going to latch on to in a positive or negative with her or is it just going to come in neutral? I'm going to say probably more neutral.

6:22Yeah. And because there weren't any huge red flags like as in the, you know, how Goldman was in the case, Ellen Greenberg, where, you know, what do I do? I don't know what happened or and then several minutes later, oh, she does have a knife sticking out of her, right? Yeah. Yeah. Things that you're just like that in one, one call should be played at Quantico. Right. What to look for to 911 call somebody who's guilty. Yeah. Somebody who knows something because that was unbelievable and there were no huge standout red flags here. So actually, let's look at that a little bit. Go ahead. I want to say this real quick. And obviously there's been no one that's been charged with anything in Ellen Greenberg maintains his innocence. We're not saying anyone's guilty. We're not saying anybody did anything there. Okay, Robin. Go ahead. Go ahead. We've got to hedge our bets. Got to hedge the bets there. So, so actually, you know, but going back to 911 call it, it's a really interesting thing because I found the same nonverbals on her and indicators.

7:26You know, I'm on calls because people have done a lot of research of them. If I wanted people, I worked with that Quantico for years, did an entire book and paper on it. And I'm curious, you know, what do you think, so let's do a projection in a thought experiment on this one. Say that she comes out, the jury finds her guilty. What do you think then was going through her head? How do you think she was able to actually come across as normal on that 911 call if she is indeed found guilty? Well, I think that this is a woman who understands what's at stake. And when you understand what's at stake and you're in control of what you're going to say of the narrative of when you're going to call, you have it scripted out in your brain. You probably practice it a thousand times. You're going to be able to make yourself come off as somewhat believable. And I think it all just comes down to that planning and practice. Yeah, you think she got reps in on that beforehand? I mean, because do you think she from any kind of pattern behavior you saw with her practice

8:29any of these things ahead of time or do you think she's more off the cuff or do you think it's somewhere in the middle? I think practice. Look at the trial, you know, poisoning scenario that she did before. Yeah, yeah. Good point. And to me, this is a woman who absolutely plans and practices and thinks it through. I think this was probably in the making and her brain for months and months and months if not years. What her plan was going to be is the, as the bills mounted. Yeah. I would say too. I mean, from a behavior standpoint, someone like this, we look at their behavior the way that they react to things, the way that they emote as they're going through their actions in life. And if they're acting sad, upset, angry, and we look at what was the catalyst for this, why would they be feeling sad, upset, or angry? Oh, God, well, your husband's lying dead in the bed. That would certainly make you, most people feel a sense of loss and sadness and grief,

9:33and it's all coming over you because you just lost your husband. That can be tricky sometimes because that's what most people are feeling, but some people can be also emoting the same way, that sadness, that upset, that worry, all of that. But it's not for the same reasons, it's more so fear of exposure. Just the dramatic change that's now happening in your life. If you've been planning this forever and now, well, it's game day, here it goes. You might be crying and going through all of this, this, this tizzy of emotion and it may look exactly like someone who's going through that tizzy of emotion because of the loss, because of the death of the husband, but it's for a very different reason. We just don't know quite what is the triggering reason? What's causing Cory to feel that way? Is it the loss or is it the possibility and the arena that she's walking into of possible exposure and the vulnerability that is then going to be in front of her? It can look almost the same way in an extinguishable.

10:35Yeah, Tony, you hit a really key point. I'm sure Jen, you've seen this hundreds of times, if not thousands as well, because what happens is people will take their own confirmation biases on what they think they're seeing interpreting according to what they expect or want to see or think they should see and it's not, have has anything to do what's going on in their own, own head. That's why people are so in general, really bad at detecting deception because they're looking for deceptive clues and they're going to see a, like to your point, all those indications of compression, bringing in blocking, blading, thinking, ah, that's a key of deception. No, it's also a key of change of thought, a negative thought, a bad thought, a bad memory or something. So it doesn't necessarily mean this thing. So that's why you got to look for those arcs and patterns. Yeah. No, I agree. The confirmation bias in all of these cases is really something. I mean, I think it's hard for many people who look at these. I mean, I'm always, you know, particularly now on the other side where we don't get to see 100% of the evidence, even though in trials, finally, we do get to see the evidence

11:37at least that's brought forth. It's always, you know, you have to kind of check yourself, right? Because how often can you go down thinking one person's responsible and then fact shift and you have to be able to just close the door on where you were initially taken and shift back to what the facts show. This case, however, I will say, here wasn't anybody else that was even possibly involved in this death. Obviously, they're trying to say it's him, you know, that he did it in less, in less your Bob Mata. So I want to give you the Bob Mata on response, Jen. So Jen, you can't, you can't possibly know what's going on in her head. You don't know her. What would you say to Bob? It says you just don't know, you just don't know Corey Richens. And do me a favor, have this conversation at my wedding across the table. Tonight, we have a story passed that Bob has redeeming qualities.

12:40Look, I say, you know, you should have a conversation with her, you know, you should develop a friendship. Now, you know, he, well, okay, can we ask another question? Okay. All right. So I'll reframe the question. So Jen, so how in the world of behavioral analysis that we do, because it's part of a whole, because when you're presenting a case to a jury, it's, it's the facts, data, and details, but also we're interpreting the human being that's being presented to us. And so for us that are observing her a lot on the behavioral side of two, what are some of the key behavior patterns that says to you that will potentially then most important things say to the jury, we know her. We know her well enough beyond a reasonable doubt that she did X or we don't know beyond a reasonable doubt. What would you be looking for on that jury? Well, so what I'd be looking for because I'm a brick and mortar kind of agent, I always look for the facts, the fact of this relationship.

13:40And when I say the relationship with the maid and the person who acquired the fentanyl, and I would be looking at that that they've established very well existed. I would be looking at the money situation and what a terrible situation she was in money wise and how strong that motive was for her to get rid of her husband. I would be looking at the, you know, the other poisoning situation that happened. How can that be explained other than she was trying possibly to see how it worked or tried for it to happen and it didn't happen because it wasn't enough and went back and obviously tried again. Why did she write that book or ghost write that book or somebody ghost write it? Because she wants to look innocent. She wants to look like, look, look at me, I'm doing this for my children. Why in the world at a party, is she partying it up right after everything happens? Why is she making the financial choices she made?

14:40Why was she trying to divert money to her? All of these things are like facts that to me are like the snow that I always talk about. When I look at my lawn screen and all of a sudden it's full of snow, I know it's snowed. I don't see her give him that poison. And so as far as behaviorally, wow, I mean, this is a woman who just reeks of somebody who is not somebody you want to be married to, very self-absorbed, somebody who is all about her. I always hate to use the work narcissist, but maybe you're all psychologist, I love out to these things. She is. Yes. I was married to someone like, well, you know, this close to you, but you know, it is totally, you know, so Jen and I are so used to though, when you work in our world, when you work with so many operational psychologists, anytime someone who's not licensed throws

15:43that term out there, boy, do we get slapped around hard, that's why we're all used. That's why we're very cautious on that word. You're not a licensed clinician, you do the test and assessments. Yeah. I mean, and obviously we're not. We can't diagnose her. We can't. So it's all, it's in, in my opinion, in European, in every zipping, whatever. But yeah, I mean, totally, I mean, she, and I've said this a gazillion times, I've been so many pieces on it now, borderline narcissistic personality disorder, she fits it to a fricking tea. Well, it's easy, well, it's easy to see, because what you're really doing when you're doing that, her actions and behaviors, who's the primary beneficiary of them, you know, is it herself or others, is she being secretive or is she being open? So those are the really key indicators I'm always looking for. And every single thing we've seen that's been presented in court, everything was to benefit her irrespective of the impact on others. So those are the behavior things that we're looking at when we're coming up with a lot of the things on the behavior side is, is then, because when you see that self-serving behavior, fitting, fitting, fitting, fitting, fitting, does then the accusation of what you did fit within that pattern or is an outlier, and if it all fits within, and then all the

16:46hard evidence that Jen's looking at, it all becomes very congruent. And hopefully, we'll see, not hopefully, because again, in a sense, it'll be really interesting what the jury comes up with as a result. I'm curious to get your guys' thought on the book, because, I mean, the book already looked pretty dark and bad to begin with this children's book that if you did this, you wrote this to make it, you know, as a ruse, basically. But for the longest time, it was, she wrote it. Now we're learning it was a ghost writer that did it. But part of her defense has been, oh, she did it as a writing exercise to prepare for writing something bigger. She didn't even do that. So that was a lie, too. So they find themselves in a lie in the middle of the actual thing of what the reasoning is behind the book. She didn't even write the damn thing. If your husband did die and you didn't do it, I could say that being a somewhat healthy exercise for you and your children, we're going to grieve this way.

17:49And you know what? We like doing creative things. Let's do this together. Let's work on this and maybe we'll help some other people out in the process. That's lovely. If that's what could have happened, if that's what happened, but that's not what happened. It was ghost written for a purpose by somebody else. I mean, I don't like, why would you even do that? I mean, why would you hire someone else to do this? If it's not an exercise in grief or trying to help your children along, go to the library, get a book about grief if that's what you want. You don't write one with a ghost writer and then publish it and go on TV and tell you, I mean, it's all about look at me. It's all about, see, I mean, it's setting up society to believe your narrative before they even realize there's another narrative they need to be looking at. That would be my take. Jan, how about you? This is so perfect because I can circle back to the Bob Maude question. Okay. Bob Maude? Yes. I love it.

18:49I think like, wasn't it, how can you know what she was thinking, right, to that effect? So first of all, I'll say that that is the most cliche, defense attorney statement that every defense attorney says. So I just kind of always wash that aside with expecting that question, but now I'll answer it in this case with the example of that book because when that book was written, it was literally supposed to be written by her for her and her children to agree, you know, to have this cathartic. This is so horrible. She should, you know, just watching her when she tried to sell this book, if I'm sure you guys have seen the footage, if that were me just thinking about the loss of my husband, I would be in tears. I mean, it would be very difficult to even and none of that, of course, it's like, oh, yeah, I got this right. And then the fact that she ghost wrote that so it wasn't even hard. It wasn't even her, it wasn't her expression.

19:52It was her. That tells me a lot about that person. Just forget about whether she is guilty or innocent, just feigning. That's what I'm looking for. Preening love, sorrow, heartfelt sickness over the loss of another and then now knowing it's all BS, Bob Mata, that's how I... So, Jen, so I saw this, Jen, I'm curious if you saw the same thing and it only came to me is again, when I heard she ghost wrote it, I go, oh, that's another fraud, right? And it fits in that pattern. But then, just like you, it got doubled down on when I was watching one of the news clips of her being interviewed on TV and she's explaining to the interviewer on that local TV channel about her son's first day of school and her with him kind of helping him work through this. And I'm thinking, you are completely lying about how this idea of the book came to you and the fact that someone else wrote it. In other words, it's another pattern of behavior deception.

20:56I'm curious, why do you think that the prosecution didn't even use that or did they find out that too late, you think? You know, I don't know what you think about this Robin and Tony, but I do always believe that sometimes when you start straining into tans, gentle, you know, other areas like that, you can cause some problems for yourself, towards it can sort of dumb down a little bit. You're stronger facts because people start going in that and start thinking, well, maybe she did it, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so I think that that's why they didn't want to get too often the weeds on it to deter from their overall case. Yeah, fair point. Thank you. Yeah. It'll be what Bob's on tomorrow. So I'm interested to hear his argument back. I love you both. Oh, I got it. I love Bob. I'm interested in hearing in that. But no, I totally got it because we get into the same weeds a lot too. But it's fun. Great exercise. I love going back and forth with them on that stuff.

21:58Let's wrap up our conversation here on Corey on this one thing. Is there is this death by a thousand cuts or was there a single thing that that really sunk Corey for you in this case? I know we all kind of went into this feeling. I think similar that she probably did it. But was there anything in this case where you're like, yep, that's it. Jen, we'll go to your first. For sure, for me, just the acquiring of the fentanyl. And I hear whether the other dope dealer says, well, now I've decided I don't want to be associated with fentanyl. So we're going to go with insurance or whatever, but to me, that just that's that's the one for me. I believe that happened and I believe that's how it happened. Robin? Yeah. For me, it was it was the two things. It's combination of the fentanyl and the death. And then the first thing you always look for in these cases, was there life insurance policy? Oh my. There was. And it was fraudulent. Yeah. She really just kind of fill up the full recipe card with everything. Yeah, it really did.

22:59It's like, oh, yeah, the combo is just it was it was it was the it was the murder happy meal. Yeah. And this is a supreme pizza of of what were to my looking for of it's not seduction. Although that's part of it too in this because you get that you get everything in this case. You get all the top things. It's all there. We'll see what this all ends. Your thoughts in the comments section on YouTube and sub stack. The links are in the description. Let's move over to another case that we've been following 40 what 42 days, I think we're up to I've lost track no arrest over 40,000 tips more than a million dollars in reward money and one of the largest FBI test forces deployed in a kidnapping case in recent memory. And right now, Sheriff Nannos has gone on national television and said investigators believe they know why this home was targeted and that the public should not assume they're safe. Okay, well, this is this is new information 40 some days into this, yeah, Nannos said

24:01that they believe they know the motive, but he hedged immediately not 100% sure. So he knows that, but he's not quite sure, Ken, what do you make of any of this? Does he know or is he just as he has seemingly a lot of this case said a lot of things out loud that don't really come to fruition and then when cross tracked, don't really add up all that much. Is there more going on behind the scenes here, Coburger asked like with fry or is this a totally different animal? Big take on this one. Yeah, said from he said to me, he laid out the motive from the beginning. He laid the groundwork for what the motive was and that was a kidnapping and this kidnapping went bad and there was no proof of life. That has really been the entirety of the overarching theme of this case from the beginning and from watching the investigative pattern.

25:01You don't have the three children go on TV in tears, reading a script written at least in part for BAU inclusive of silence of the lamb verbiage. You don't think that there is something to do with the ransom, but you believe those ransom notes are directly connected or not and then you have four more, you know, Cameron go on after that saying, please just contact us and show us she's alive. Give us some life approved. That was his only message in that. And then the subsequent one, okay, we know she's not with us any longer, but please let's get her body so we can celebrate that and then five and six, the same sort of messages pleading to whoever did it. We forgive you. There's help for everybody, you know, it's all this to me that showed from the beginning where law enforcement investigation believed this was and then you heard Sheriff Nanos use the words from the beginning, you know, from beginning. This is kind of where we thought things were going and we were right.

26:04And yes, he hedged his bet, but so no. And then secondarily on the whole, you know, danger to the community, it was so funny, because please look at my tweet the day before he came out. And I said, why is nobody talking about this, the fact that there's a murder or not a murder and an abductor, an abductor at this point out there running around who's capable of this kind of violence against an 84 year old, she's obviously injured bleeding. Why is no one talking about the fact that that person could strike again? And then the next day, he says this and remember, fry never cop to it, right? He kept on the community safe, on the community safe. And that was always a huge mistake back then. There's obviously, somebody's capable of that, they're capable of doing it again. So Jen, here's my questions on this, because you know me, I'm the, you're the slightly on this side of the abduction, I'm on the other side.

27:04So here's the numbers that I'm not quite sure about and I'm not quite sure why Nanos made this statement. I'm curious about your take on too. So I looked it up again this morning. So serial abductions, in other words, the threat of another abduction by someone who is abducting as a line of income, a line of whatever, it is likelihood of striking again 15 to 25% roughly for people at a certain age level above 70. We're talking less than 1% of the serial abduction. And now if it's, and the other thing too, is if it's targeted against celebrity, we're talking, there's been three examples in recorded history. That's when being in the 70s and 80s for a targeted abduction for celebrity of notoriety or relative of one. And so if you're dealing with low averages of potential serial abduction or even targeted, why is there still a threat like he's like he elevated to like you got to watch your homes, you know, or I'm not, I don't understand how the two are coming together.

28:06And so I'm, I'm just looking for that understanding of like, all right, so if there's a threat to community from serial abduction, but the research says there's no threat to community for serial abduction, it was if it's targeted for her of retribution, and they've already done their retribution, why would there still be a threat to someone else as I'm trying to understand that? Any thoughts on that? Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I totally agree with you when you look at the statistics of all of this, like this is such an outlier, but I will draw the attention of a very interesting case that took place just days before her abduction of another kidnapping of rich individuals. They were in their 60s. So to me, that's not old, right? They're in their 60s, but they were abducted, they were tied up, they were beaten, and they were demanded Bitcoin about an hour and a half from Nancy Guthrie, just in January. So just north of her house in Scottsdale, how that all came together were two more ons came over from California in their teens that had somehow come on to this through signal

29:14was the app they used to communicate, they were sent at $1,000, they were purportedly controlled by red and eight, that's the names on there, to go and try to make this happen. So when we're talking about statistics, what are the statistics that two high value targets are targeted within an hour and a half of each other, coming across state lines, which when you look at where these billboards are in California, this across state lines, I just still can't shake, and I know the Bureau is going to be looking at this hard, just to rule that out or rule that in, is there a group that is trying to, like the Chilean bank, bank, or I'm sorry, robbery folks, the burglars I want to say, remember they were very organized nationwide at particularly targeting celebrities, sorry celebrities

30:15yes, and basketball players, famous sports people when they were at their games, and it was very well organized and put together, and so that was done by a group and the Bureau got them, at least part of that group, and I was wondering, it just has to be visited, could this be something like that, because it's just too much of a coincidence to me, so in other words, not targeting older people, targeting rich people. So I apologize, I didn't, tell me about, what's the name of the case that is in an hour and a half north, because when I did the research, obviously not in a data bank yet, so that did not pop up for me, what was the name of that one? Yeah, well the case, let me give you the details, and it's all throughout my Twitter, but it's... I'll take a look at there, because yeah, that's the one data point I wasn't bringing into account on that, because again, when I did the research of things that happened within the county, and within 100 mile, 150 mile radius, nothing was popping up, because that one was too recent, that's probably why, sorry Tony, go ahead.

31:18If this is, in fact, if this was a kidnapping gone wrong, and it wasn't a B&E gone wrong, and shit, Nancy becomes part of the evidence, let's get rid of her, you know, what, and if other people could be at risk, according to Nana, of Nana, yeah, I mean, if somebody's capable of doing this, yeah, and I guess anybody could technically be at risk, but what does that say about how targeted this was to Nancy, if really, you know, this guy could strike again? I mean, I suppose they targeting doesn't necessarily mean, you know, we're sitting here knowing everything about Nancy before we go in, maybe it's just kind of a light targeting, we know that there's some money here, you can tell that by the house that she lives in, others could be targeted, you know, I guess a light targeted, targeted would be a way of saying it, not like super in depth, we're targeting you because of your daughter, like with Savannah's case, is this something where it's just, you know, they're rolling the dice, there's a rich house,

32:21let's go see what we can get, or I guess, where do you think they're at in terms of how targeted Nancy was? Was it simply because she had a million dollar house, and there would likely have been the chance of getting some good things out of there, or was it more targeted because of who she was, of who her daughter was? But I am fully convinced, other than I got to be careful, this is one of these cases, I got to be careful with confirmation bias. Yeah. We're always looking for other facts that could disprove this belief, but I very much believe this was not a burglary. You don't go to a burglary with a full backpack, and you do not leave from a burglary with the person in the house. That does not happen, when you talk about stats, it's crazy. That does not happen. This guy went into a doctor, that's my belief, he was fully guard up, what she could, and he had that backpack full of something to put over her head, gagged for her mouth, that's why I don't believe that's aspirated blood,

33:24I blew that's blood droplets, and I've got multiple examples of when a blood drop echoes out, I am not a blood drop expert. No one's commentating right now, this is a blood drop expert, or a blood spatter expert that I've heard from, and those people that are blood spatter experts, they would say, I got to look at it under a microscope, so I want to preface my whole blood spatter theory, but from what I've seen, those are the droplets battering out, making that pattern that were held still as she was held. I think this is an reduction, it was gone bad, because slow sadly, I think she died, and no longer do you have that proof of life, abort, abort, abort, go into hiding, and I think what he's trying to say is there'd be another big of possibly this group that would want to target somebody else. So my other question on this is, all right, so if we're going down the road of targeted abduction for ransom, again, you know me with my stats,

34:25it's roughly 7 to 12 minutes in and out for the abduction, what happened in 41 minutes? Well, it loses the sick part, right? Oh God. All right, I won't get it totally into the weeds, but the sick part, but a couple of things, I mean, one, there could have been some sort of interrogation that took place regarding her money and regarding what she could get a hold of, and regarding all of that. So that's the best case scenario, partial scenario, I think probably would have happened. The bad scenario of all this, of course, is something much more dark, and let's hope that that didn't happen, but you know, anybody cruel enough to an abduct in 84-year-old likely know they are not going to make this out alive. I don't mean out of the house, in case alive. That's a pretty sick monster, and I don't put anything past him. What do we know? I mean, we have the blood that was on the outside of the house. We don't really know a ton about what was found inside the house. It really hasn't been revealed as of yet.

35:29One would have to assume I would imagine if there's blood splatter right there on the porch that there'd be something inside the house, do you think? The scene on the inside is something that the investigators are really holding close to the vest right now for the investigative purposes of this investigation that reveal a heck of a lot more that might open our eyes to this case in a way that we are not seeing right now. Well, a couple of big things, right? If we're, you know, again, this is from NANOS, which by the way, NANOS is at least better than any source we have. Because, you know, people can source them. This is definitely the person who does somebody's hair that's married to the police officer. I mean, we just know. But if we know with NANOS, he has the ability to know. He has the knowledge base. So when it comes down to that, Tony, I, you know, I think that I think he knows, I think he's, I think they're on the trail. And I think

36:31on the trail of somebody of Hispanic descent, I say that because when you look at the billboards, they're in Arizona, they're in California, they're in Texas, particularly focused in Houston. If you look at the perpetrator's mug that we can see a lot of details on those roomed eyebrows have always bothered me and their Hispanics love to groom their eyebrows. I'm Hispanic. I could say that. Just go to Puerto Rico or Mexico. It happens at certain parts and families and things like that. And I think there's a reason they chose to put those billboards where they did. Robin, do you agree with me? They didn't just say, whoa, let's go throw these up in Texas. It's because, yeah, I agree. They're, they're probably going for a demographic on it based on past experience, past on what they're seeing inside the house that we don't see. I agree. Also, why we're probably not seeing, seeing more, seeing like one of the theories, you know, I think, you know, you and I are definitely lining on a lack of leakage coming out because either there's no one else too leak or the people around aren't, there's no one around too leak because they're

37:35not present in the country or even present left on the earth anymore, whatever it is. But there's, I think it's, I think those are demographically targeted for a reason. One more question, cadaver dogs being called off. I know that's been kind of been made somewhat of a big deal. I don't know how big of a deal it is. I was talking with Vinnie about that the other night on court TV. What's your, what's your take? Why, why call off the cadaver dogs at this point in the investigation? So two things. First of all, I need to go back to your other question because I did a terrible job of answering that in that house. So sorry. When I saw the picture in the bedroom, you know, that came from the NBC from 13 years ago. Yeah, yeah. When I go in and went a part of a team and do an arrest, this is exactly what I want. We want, is we want, technically, that person corner where they can't get out. The wall on this side, the wall on this side, very little room. There's no place for them to go, right?

38:40I think that because we know initially, they talked about they called homicide in, they saw what they needed to see. I can only imagine what that little corner of that room, what her bed, what her nightstand, what that lamp. I'm just in picturing when she first is awakened and CZ, there was just this one abductor or another abductor on her and that chaotic situation that would have happened. And I think that that is something that we could count on being in the room is being very disorganized in that corner. That answers that other question. You asked me as far as the cadaver dogs, and this is something I just imagine this. So you're in charge of this case, and you think you have information as to what happened. In other words, that she went to Mexico, that she's really in Houston, went to Houston, Texas or whatever it might be. And now you are saying to, you search, and the Cade de Navy and Madre's Buscadoras,

39:47you're saying, hey, listen, I want you all to go out in the desert and search all of these, and these search grids, and this is what we're going to do. And you know she's not there. And later they say, you've known she wasn't there for the last 30 days, and you sent all these people out there when they could be helping other families. Just something to consider. That's the first thing that came to mind when I thought about it as to why maybe he's not supporting it. Just a thought. And also, definitely part of that, they know that it would be a useless endeavor at this point. And also, you know, those dogs, they're limited resources. And there's a lot of other, as we've covered a lot, you know, Nancy's case is not unique in the sense of there's goes a lot of missing people out there. There's a lot of people that can't be found that are potentially deceased. And so those cadaver dogs, they're using a lot of places other than this one. So I think it's also a matter of they have other things that got to be doing as well. Yeah. There's obviously still far more

40:51questions and answers in this case. And here we are five weeks, six weeks. I don't know. I'm off. What week? We're day 44 day 44. My goodness. You know, your thoughts in the comments section on YouTube and sub stack. The links are in the description. We'll continue that conversation right there. Let's talk about one one more case here today. Lankin Snelly gave birth alone at 4 a.m. in August 27th, 2025. And her Lexington Kentucky apartment, her son was found hours later by her roommates wrapped in a towel and a bag in her closet, born alive, cause of death, exphyxia, by undetermined means. A grand jury indicted her on first degree manslaughter. When investigators found on her phone, as it makes his case a little bit different. And that's where we're going to start. Her phone had deleted labor photos week by week pregnancy tracking and months of active concealment while she was competing at nationals and cheerleading and doing what looked like

41:53maternity photos with her boyfriend. It's not really denial. What exactly is it? What what what on earth? Jen, I'm going to start with you. What do you think was going through this young woman's mind when when she decided I'm going to put this baby that's making noises that I just gave birth to in a trash bag in my closet and then go out to McDonald's, which is exactly what happened. I want to know the proximal event. To me, this was an onset of a proximal event that happened that made her want to do this. Yeah. So I want to see a breakup, something with a breakup, something to do with her finding out that really remember there were two boyfriends that really somehow she found out it was one boyfriend, not not the other one she thought it was. There's a proximal event I believe that she said either in your face, you're never going to

42:53be the father to this child or yeah, you're going to break up with me in your face. I'm going to kill your kid. I know that sounds so rough, but I really believe that there's a proximal event that led to this. Jenna said the same thing on my paper. I have on my notes, something changed, because when you look at that behavior pattern of, because when I first saw this too, I had to look it up on Neo on that aside, and my daughter's a labor and delivery nurse. I almost called my daughter on this to get her take on it also. But when you see that arc of, so here's what's interesting, Jenna, I'm curious if you picked up on on any of this also because she seems to be interested, seems to be into it, seems to be into it. But again, she wasn't sharing it with a lot of, or anyone. So you had a compartmentalization there, which would kind of lean towards premeditation, but then she's documenting it, which is kind of incongruent. But then you said something must have happened. Again, the only other thing that, when you look at how these things happened, the only thing that really hit me was post-mortem psychosis, which I'd never heard

43:56of before. I know post-mortem depression, I've had friends of mine, tragically have had syringes situations happen because of that. I know a lot of things go on chemically after, after. But are you seeing anything different in that? I mean, how, do you see any collision between these two worlds of seemingly interested in having this baby and documented at the same time, keeping it and compartmentalized away from anything? Any idea what's going on in her mind there? Well, a couple of things that she posted that I found, but I think this was on Instagram, and I posted this. I mean, she's got, I believe, the baby or the passie, the pacifier and family and a house and like, in the words, that is a public to me notification of her desire. Yeah, for your point. We're all good there, right? And then we have, as Tony pointed out, those pictures, which absolutely to me looks, because there's no engagement, it looks like her photos. I mean, she, how she has her stomach presented and it seems like a very proud moment. And so it seems like, you know, she is accepting of it and even excited about it to a point.

45:03But then to your point, and I agree with you, there was a turn and I truly think it's going to be based on either the paternity or based on a rejection and that caused her to do this. Now, your point about the psychosis that can happen and we've seen a friend and a niece that literally, bad. I mean, it's so bizarre. It's like they want their child dead. They do not want their child in there. It has to be special safeguards and everything until they can get the help they need and pull through it, which is so weird as a mom, like, say, sorry, that I've never known love in my life until I have a child. Yeah, right. The child you are, it's bizarre. You're just like, love them or anything. And so it's hard. I think for most, most people to even wrap their head around. And, but I truly think there was something bigger than that here that caused her to do this.

46:11Now, do you make multiple, multiple things playing at once, possibly greater? Yeah. Do you, do you make anything out of, because the other thing I saw reported was her high school behavior and they're saying that she was bullying other people. And how does that play into it? And then also, the hell, I'll just go without, because I had another thought that just entered and entered into my mind at the same stinking time. Let's go with that one first. Okay. Yeah. You know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Well, one last thing. Yeah, that on top of the fact that she was still competing and seemingly trying to compete and do it all these high-end gymnastics moves and, you know, competitive cheerleading while being pregnant and kind of like not acknowledging her pregnancy, if that was accurate or not. Anyway, now I'm done. Thank you. You're so great. Okay. I'll do your last question first. So I think when it comes to that competition thing and, you know, my daughter did competitive cheerleading forever, it's crazy.

47:13More breaks and concussions and everything and football for this sport because no protections. There's throwing these people up in the air. She's catching right. She was in a fly or she was a base, what they call. Anyway, when I looked at that, I didn't really necessarily see concealment because I think it was impossible to conceal. I think that she's part of these routines and it's hard to replace somebody other than to kick them off the squad. And I don't think that they were going to be willing to do that. And I think the reason you see this, you know, it's tight everything because that was their uniform. And I think that she was just trying to meld into the routine, as best she could. So I'm not sure it was a Pharisee hiding as opposed to having to perform her job. Okay. To your second point about the repeat again. So you have reported high school bullying, treating people poorly. Is that playing to it at all? You know, I always struggle when people come out of the woodwork in these things.

48:17And from years prior, because maybe they were the ones that weren't in the end crowd. You know, she just strikes me as somebody. And when I say in crowd, you know what I mean? Like they're that she later, they're quite as if she was a homecoming queen or I think or at least on the court. I think she might have been queen. You know, the popular girls, right? And then all of a sudden, all these people have a chance to say, oh, she was a village is and she might have been. She might have been, you know, I've seen all those reports. But I've just hesitant because everybody has their own agenda. People won't come forward. People might have been, I have, can I tell you a quick antidote on that? Yeah. So gosh, I got to be careful how to couch this. All people take less personally. So someone I know they were getting married. And at the club that they were getting married at the person in charge of coordinating these things said they did not want to be any part of the wedding and would not assist.

49:22Because it had turned out that that person, just by coincidence, had known this person that was in going to be married. And they said they had a locker next to them and were so bullied. And then that person's side of it was I never even knew that person. Never saw him in four years, right? So it wasn't really that they were bullied, but maybe more that they were informed and the other person just had no idea just of how this person was taking their behavior because it was so uninclusive that they considered, you know what I mean? So I'm yeah, yeah, context with the high school people coming out. But this was way uglier. Like being able to do this to your child, this to me was vindictive toward some. I mean, I would say this. I mean, obviously, high school is high school, you're going to have that sort of behavior, you know, it's not great, but it is we've all been through high school. It certainly does start to show a propensity for the behavior and a pattern

50:27of the behavior and a lack of empathy for others. And it is shocking the extreme lack of empathy that some kids in high school have. And I would say, you know, honestly, just looking back in life at the folks that I can remember from high school, from what I've seen of them in adulthood, just like observing through Facebook or whatever, they turned into the empathetic lacking monsters as adults that they were as children. It just kind of continues for most of them. And it's just it's their modality. It's how they act. I could see very easily how how someone in a situation like you were describing there may not have any idea that this person next to them felt that way about them because of the sheer amount of bullying that they do and don't even realize that that's how they're coming across or that they their actions have an effect on others. And there's a level where you can write it off as well. It's youth and they're, you know,

51:29their narcissists are alive and well in the teenage years. Hopefully you grow out of it and take it as a learning lesson, not everyone does. But the fact that I don't know, I mean, I did a piece in this last week looking at all the claims from all these people that are making telling these stories about Lincoln's smelling. And it's like, damn, yeah, she didn't necessarily go out of her way to make extra friends throughout high school. She very much had her way of doing things. And I mean, it all kind of plays into the profile here of the person that is being painted of Lincoln's telling that we're understanding. You know, it does it ever, you know, fully, does it justify anything? No, but it does. It certainly does paint the picture, whether she was an adult or not. And you got a lot of people that are saying the same sort of thing. I know, I think it plays into it. You know, Tony, and I think also maybe the reason I'm, I don't know if I want to say downplaying it, but not getting to stuck on that part of it. I know in court,

52:30I know legally, there is no way they're going to use any of that. Nobody's going to hit the stand. And so I think sometimes when I think about cases, even now I'm on this side of the screen, I think of it really as that FBI lens going. It's interesting. I'm going to take a few notes on this. Now don't get me wrong if she was pregnant in high school. And through a baby in a trash can, and somebody told us about that, then that that's direct lead that would probably still be too prejudicial to come in. But that I would find more interesting. Because I'm so brick and mortar. Yeah. On facts that I, so, but I see why you're bringing that up because everybody wants to understand how this beautiful girl who had everything going for her, you know, going to Kentucky, just literally everything going for her could take a life. I mean, put it in one of the beautiful boxes, the safe haven boxes. You have that child a chance to live. You all know,

53:30I'm adopted. And I was this close to being, you know, scrambled eggs down in Mexico before my mom by law for long. Oh, God. I'm sorry. I got a visual. I mean, anyone ever described themselves as being this close. I've never wanted to give a more spun. Jen, I've never wanted to give more spontaneous hug in my life. Oh, wow. So I'm very, you know, these kinds of cases every time they come up, I'm all for them because these mothers need to give chances of life to people. Yeah. And the fun. Yeah. If you went that far, you know, it's a, that was part of my, my initial research on this as well. So, you know, if you knew from the beginning into our earlier points, kind of circling back, Jen, as well as Tony, you know, you have a patterned behavior. So if you discount high school, and I think high school, it would give me as an investigator, was there something else going on in high school that maybe are facts and details that might be relevant later in life if this behavior was present, maybe,

54:33maybe not. But kind of bringing us to that arc of receiving behaviors of wanting it. And also, I don't think, you know, she definitely was clued in that she was pregnant at some point and could have got, you know, boarded earlier on rather than waiting to the very end. So to our point, something happened. And that's where they should really be zeroing. She's one breath away from high school. I mean, she literally just left it. So I mean, it wasn't like that was ancient history for her either. I mean, it's, I don't know, your thoughts, Jen. Yeah, my mind's going 50 different places on this one. I just, I mean, for me, I want her to get a very severe penalty if she is convicted in a court of law. I don't want this to be a hands laugh, which is all we've seen. It's out and about. She's, you know, at home confinement, you know, her parents, you know, basically she's able to just one with her life most likely for the most part other

55:36than she can't really be seen too much in public. But, um, and then if she gets a light sentence, and I'm worried that that's what will happen. I'm worried we're going to see a plea here. And he's going to want a plea. She is going to want a plea. She, she is not going to want to see this all on stage for everybody's going to want. Let me, this is a point I was going to make, because I kind of slit my mind. You were just talking earlier about, you know, that women, young women should should be able to, should know that there's these resources available to them. So they don't end up like scrambled eggs. I mean, or their children go, but, but, but it's, it's true. I mean, and I think there's, you know, some do a lot don't. But they're, where were the safeguards here in any of this? I mean, the fact that she was competing in the cheer competitions. I've been through that too. I, uh, I had a former fiance or a daughter who is in it. I went to many of these competitions. I've seen how it works in and out for years. Um,

56:39and that's some crazy frickin' work that those girls do. And they work their ass and, and it's, it's insanely intense. And, and yeah, losing a single member of that team can destroy the entire team, especially if they're playing an integral role in in that. So there's, there's certainly incentive to not want someone to, to leave the team because of some sort of medical ailment. But we're talking about someone who's pregnant with a child here. I mean, how, even if she didn't say it aloud to everybody, what was this? Is this an example of just kind of the group thing and the group? Well, well, the, the goal over here, because we've had this longer than we've known that she was pregnant. And we're going down this road full steam. And all these girls are involved to get this done. And now we found this out. Shit, what do we do? We can't really like swap, swap her out. So is this really an example too of like everybody putting their heads in the sand and pretending, well, if she can just make it through this, you know, it,

57:41it'll be fine. I mean, it feels like there's some responsibility that, that should be lying with the, the adults around her of someone stepping in at some point going, yeah, you're pregnant. You can't be doing this anymore. Like this is dangerous for yourself and your baby. What the hell are you doing? But it seems that none of that occurred whatsoever because of the greater goal of we got to win that state or whatever the hell the goal was. Well, I will say this, how many pregnant people have you known? And because I'm in the tennis world, I know a lot of them. Yeah. Play up till nine months in a hundred and six degree weather. I have no idea. Round at the highest levels of tennis other than professional tennis and competition in university tennis. Running around, getting balls, you know, going crazy, having people, pelting them in their stomach balls, that's the opponent, you know, and they're out there competing. It's insane. So I will say this, a lot of women who are pregnant or have

58:43outrunners, they've run up until that baby. And they say, I remember my doctor told me that, and by the way, I never did that, but they told me that you can, whatever you were doing when you got pregnant, you can do exercise and perform at that same level through your pregnancy until you physically can't, like until unless you're, I mean, well, you can't unless something goes horribly wrong and you're participating in a sport that can go horribly wrong. No, you bring up a good point. I'm just saying I could see especially in her. Yeah, and also remember, 20-year-olds think they're invincible. Yes. So that plays it. You know, it struck me as we're sitting here talking about this, and it kind of came back to the behavior side of thing. And the one thing I circled again on my notepad was retribution. So what would, so here's where we're going back to behavior, and where I think, because like you said, Tony, the high school years aren't too far removed from where she is. Every single action that has been reported, and every single action we're seeing here

59:46was all about self. I mean, so what kind of person does it take to flip from seemingly having, you know, some pride in having a baby or pictures or this little fantasy world going on, to be able to flip like this, that because I don't like something you did, because she didn't like the paternity suit. You know, whatever the outcome that, like we're saying, that blip that happened, that changed behavior, how loosely was she holding on to the value of the child compared to the value of herself? That's really profound. I mean, so if someone's willing to flip like this, that she's willing to discard, discard a life because it was inconvenient to her, a thought opinion of someone else, that's where it's an interesting arc. I'm going to take it forward, just for, if I'd say, or weaponize. Oh my God, yes, yes, great word on that one. Yeah, you're right. So not just discard, I think she might have weaponized that baby. So we're tracking totally

1:00:51rotten. Yeah, interesting. It will be very interesting to see the stories that continue to pop up around Lincoln's now, like, and how much of it leads in that direction, because I think you're right. There's like, there's far more to this story than just this very bizarre kind of incongruent behavior on her part. There's, there's something ahead of it, something triggering, something. And on that point, let me, let me throw this one more question here before we wrap up. If there is a proximal event to this, could anybody in that proximal event, I guess, depending on what was said or done, could there be any other charges that are brought up up here? I mean, I'm saying, you know, if there is, who knows, a complete conjecture here, but we've seen cases before where some friend encouraged the other to end their own life. If we saw something in here of a friend or a boyfriend, and again, not saying this, I have no idea, but let's just say in theory that that the father of this child or the current boyfriend, father or not, said,

1:01:56I don't want anything to do with this. You know, wanted to hear, here's, here's what you should just do. And she does it. Could there be charges there for following someone else's instruction or advice, if you will? I think because this case doesn't point in that direction at all. Yeah. Hearing right, nobody else has been brought in. There's nothing like that. I think it's just where are they going to be on like a snowing shoulder. Yeah, I would think you would see it. We would see a digital trail already kind of pointing in other culpability here as well. Yeah. But I think if that were to play in, I think you definitely need a digital trail. Or even, and even not even to a slightly lesser degree, Tony, you know, we're not even taking direction, but then being informed because of this, I'm going to do this. You know, I think we would have seen something kind of leaked out already on that. I would too. It's an interesting, I mean, I mean, it's going to be a case like that at some point. It's a thought experiment. You know, where that ends up being a factor in some way, shape or form, but you know, is that prosecutable?

1:03:00It's that, you know, it's some, it's hurt. Ultimately, it was Lincoln's choice to do what she was going to do. And what words have power, words matter, but our words prosecutable, if you're not the one that's actually carrying out the task, but I mean, if you ask somebody to go, you know, you put a hit on somebody, those are words. Parents are being prosecuted and convicted for things with their kids these days, right? Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of it. Your thoughts in the comment section on YouTube and substack, be sure to weigh in. We'll continue our conversation there. And be sure to press subscribe wherever you download podcasts. You don't miss any of our coverage of this in the many cases that we follow for you right here. All right. Until next time for Jennifer Kaufendaffer, Robin Drake, Todd and myself, I'm Tony Brusky. We'll talk again, Wilson. Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast.