Rex Heuermann Can't Connect Himself to Gilgo Beach Crimes

0:00This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. The peacock documentary about Rex Hirman, the Gilgo Beach Killer House of Secrets, did something no courtroom ever would have. It put a therapist in a room with Rex Hirman and let her dig. What came out of those sessions is a portrait of a man who's timed his body dumps with a stopwatch, literally, who built a four-day ritual around each killing and who says he still can't connect the person in the crime scene photos to himself. Rex Hirman told the world who he is, the question is whether any of us are really hearing it. We heard his voice in the doc in part four, we've been heard in the earlier parts too. He calls, he calls Asa, he calls Victoria several times during the new episode in the docu series and it usually starts with hello dear, very folksy, very like nothing's

1:03going on. How you doing, husband? Well, you know, we did this today. We did that today. Not really, you know, it's not the scary evil monster where it's like, oh, Rex is on the phone. Hello Satan is here. That's not how it goes. It's hello dear. Is Rex still trying to control the narrative here, is he still trying to control Asa and the people in his life and what they view him as, how they view him, or it is even conscious that he's doing it, if that's what's going on? I think he's conscious of doing it and yes, he's very much, I mean, he can play Asa. He knows what to say and that hello dear, always creeped me out, that just made my skin crawl. Yeah. It's beyond, beyond, I think any of us should be able to understand how to get into a mind like that. I loved what the therapist said in the beginning where he said something like, have you ever

2:08met a serial killer before or something and she said, you're not special. You're not special. Perfect. Yeah. That was perfect. Yes. Yes. So, I have mine. He spent his entire lifetime reveling in sadomasochism, totally abusing women, totally controlling them, having his playtime. Do you think he was doing exactly the same thing when he was confessing to Asa and Victoria? He did it for his pure jollies to watch their reaction to what he was saying. What's your possible, it's your possible because a person like that is shameless. So he played the game for a long time, he got away with it. He was probably a serial killer's new, very proud of himself for getting away with it. And he likes the fact that he can control the narrative.

3:10So yeah. And watching the shock on faces, and I think he's probably disappointed with Asa, maybe not so Victoria, but it was, to me, it was kind of interesting that he was as transparent as they wanted him to be because I think he took some, I think he took a lot of pleasure in it. I really do. I think that's him just kind of control everything. And I mean, and this kind of goes back to what we're talking about, Asa in our first segment and if you haven't watched it, go back and check that out. Asa entertaining him, Asa giving him a platform, meaning her ear. The platform is just simply him speaking her listening. Nobody else. Cameras are away just the two of them. The fact that she goes and listens to him on the phone calls, visits him, basically it feeds him. It feeds, it feeds his ability to share these stories. And now he wants to share the stories. He was convicted on seven counts.

4:12He admitted to eight because it was like, well, basically I'm going to, I'm going to run down. It's almost like, well, I'll add another story in here. That was a mistake on his part. I don't know. Or was it? Or was it like, well, I'm going down. I want to share everything because he's getting something out of telling these stories now. He knows the jigs up. But now, but now, how does he get his joy? He gets to joy reliving it, sharing the memories. And I think there might be more to in states that have the death penalty that he does with you. I'm with you. I think that, I think that's where that is. But, but the, the eight that he admitted to, I think it's, it's one, one move and one move only so he can openly talk about it. And in his world, relive the magic. Yep. Yeah. Play time. Now he can't have the physical play time with the bodies. He's going to play time with his daughter and his wife's mind. So you have two things going on simultaneously. You have a monster being fed his kibble. And you also have a woman, a victim of him trying to find healing through these conversations.

5:22One is, is a much more innocent and righteous process of the victim trying to find healing. And if she's finding that, we can argue the healthiness of it of, of going and having this revelation in these conversations with Rex for her own healing. But again, at the same time, you're feeding that beast. Does somebody need to get in there and show us that that's not a good thing to do to continue to feed the beast? Or is that not for anybody to say because it, it, again, it's her own personal journey there for her own healing. And again, who are we to say, if this is benefiting you, then, then that is for you because you are a victim too. But the only way it's seeming, it seems for her to kind of get to some of these places is by feeding the beast. It's, it's a catch 22. Yeah, it is. And, and as I always say, everybody's got their own path. I try to be their companion in the journey, but not judge it. But I saw one of the comments, I would change my name and leave the country. And I think that would be, I would celebrate that.

6:23I think that would be a marvelous choice. No, no more hello dear phone calls. It's, you know, it's like leave the monster behind and move on. Can you be healed by talking to a psychopath? I mean, he's not going to give you what you need. I mean, I don't, I, I, I'm with you on all these things, Shavon. I know we talked about yesterday on a show with Bob. And that is, some people have a heart. No, I think it's Monday when I was talking with Tony, you know, people in kind to this, you know, like you have to forgive, you know, in order to heal or something. No, you don't, not when you're dealing with this kind of thing. And also, you don't have to stay with people even if they're family. If they're just unhealthy F's like this, what are you doing? Leave, cut them out. I don't know how, I don't know how you can talk to someone with zero empathy and heal. I just, I can't, because they're not giving you anything you need. You need, you need an empathetic person to heal. Is she doing that in a way to have him basically fill her bucket of information

7:30on a racks to the point where it's overflowing and she has to walk away? Is she trying to be pushed away by him by exposing herself to him? Because just sitting with the racks that she remembers, she's never going to get there. Does she need, does she need this exposure to the monster version of racks to truly find the healing to push whatever is deep and so ingrained in her that is connected to him away? Does she need to get close to break away? I can see conversation or to about tell me the truth of what you did because she kept saying, I need to hear it from him. Okay, hear it from him. You've heard it from him. Now be done. Now detach. Now, you know, develop your own perceptions of the world, your own sense of identity. I think when we look at what would ideally healing look like, that would be what I would think would be the healthier thing to do.

8:33Yeah, because I mean, I'm just listening to her and how she describes and how she's bifurcated him for him. She's rationalized for him that, hey, that's just the monster you. And I know you as the family man. So I don't think that monster bucket side is ever going to get full enough. She'll just think, oh, that was the monster. She's rash, I mean, she's dug herself such a perfect bifurcation of who he is. That she'll only say, well, I'm just talking to, I'm just talking to Rex the family man. That's the monster over there and that bond that I filled that, in other words, that bucket can't get too full for her to cut off who she thinks she loves. It's constantly got a hole in it. Yeah, it does. It doesn't, and it's, it's, it's a never, it's a bucket that will never be filled for her. Because we're at least full enough that it will say it's that she, I don't think she'll ever accept him. This is one person, not two. This is one. Exactly, exactly, completely. I agree. Which is probably also why she never sought to begin with because the bucket's always had a hole and never for others, you know, depending on who they are, you know, it would have

9:37overflowed at some point and questions would have been asked. But because it was always low, the levels, because it's got a big leak in it and she's okay with it. It never overflowed. And I'm not saying that she's hiding anything or that she, she consciously was trying to withhold anything or not and everything. But I would imagine, do you think Shivan, she's looking back on the last 30 some years of her life going, oh, I wonder if that was this. And nothing, nothing specific, but just little moments here and there where she thought nothing of them at the moment, but maybe in the context now that something she thought really meant something else. It would be a good thing if she were able to look back honestly and try to put the pieces together. And then as you say, stop with the separation of, well, there was the good him and the bad him. In truth, the bad him was always there. It was always operating in the background. She didn't know about it.

10:38So I can see a place for a little bit of that, but it would be interesting five years down the road to have another documentary about how she evolved, how she changed. She's still taking those hello, dear phone calls. Do you think I'm another angle on this? I'm curious whether this would be effective therapy if anyone's ever done this way. And that is instead of trying to have her face and understand who Rex is, would it be helpful just let's just ignore Rex and what she's doing there. What if we educated her on what psychopathy looks like, and so she can hope maybe at some point comes her own conclusion where she starts connecting the dots because if she's curious about human beings and how they work and she has a deeper understanding of serial killers in psychopathy, maybe she, again, I guess it depends on her level of curiosity. I don't think she's got any going on. And capability of understanding it.

11:39It would be wonderful if I were her therapist, I would certainly be doing that. That would have been one of the earliest things is let me explain the mind of a psychopath. Let me explain the mind of a sadist. Let me explain how this works. And again, you're right. Does she have the capacity to integrate that and to make sense of it and listen to it? What do you make of the fact that it was his childhood bedroom that he's doing this horrible things? I mean, it's interesting. I mean, there are some parallels here with BTK. BTK wasn't doing these things in the home, but he lived in his childhood home. It's an interesting parallel there. He would go back and his family was none the wiser. But Rax is going back to his own childhood bedroom in the basement and doing these horrible things. What's the significance of that? I think it's really significant. That shows where these fantasies originated, where he started creating this movie and his mind of what he wanted to do to women and probably started very young.

12:43The bedroom is part of the ritual. And it's another one of these tremendously creepy things about this behavior. That bedroom is hell. I mean, hell happened in that room. And he's controlled his environment his entire life because he's had, it's spent his his entire life unbelievable. I mean, he and he used such crass terms in the context play time, clean up time. I mean, it almost sounds like, you know, preschool, okay, it's clean up time. It's time to put our way or toys, like the good girls and boys do. I mean, it's it's very, very childlike in some of the ways. Yeah, in the way that he described these sort of things going on in this capacity. Do you, when you have this sort of splitting of this personality here, you got the family man, you got this. And yes, the evil one is the one all around.

13:43He's so bad that he's able to live a fake life with this family and bamboozle them for all those years and feel no guilt. That's just how damn evil this guy is. The fact that he was doing these horrific things in his home over and over and over and over and over and over. In that, does that mind when he's, he's having his four day play time? Is he ever considering getting caught or is it, is it worth it to him is, is, is, is I'm willing to go down for this because I, I, I need this so badly, is it, is it such an urge that something in like, in him has that there's, there's no, like water, you need it to survive is, is, was doing these sort of things that in a need to him that there was just no stopping it. I, I do think they're, they're like an addict in that sense. They think about it all the time. They have a sense of out being out of control.

14:46They even if they think, well, maybe I'll get caught someday, you know, maybe I should stop, but I'm not going to stop. But then there's that grandiose piece with all his meticulous planning. These folks tend to be, in addition to psychopathic and sadistic, they tend to be narcissistic and think that they can outsmart everyone and that's part of the game for them is outsmarting everyone. So he was willing to take the risk of potentially getting caught, but I think probably in his mind he didn't think he would. He thought he would get away with it, especially because he did for so many years. Yeah. Got a lot of reps and doing it. And I think he made his plan B and C too, you know, and he said this, I kind of have believed him, you know, making his manual up so he wouldn't have to do it anymore. No, I thought that was part of plan B because a large reason why psych serial killers do what they do is to fantasize the aspect of the things they're doing to build up the, the anticipation. And so even if he's unable to do it for a period of time, just like Dennis Raider did,

15:50you can fantasize and substitute it with other things. So he can actually work on his manual, think about his manual. So even behind bars, he's able to do the same stuff because it's, and then what can he do? He can play with people by, by revealing to them all the horrendous things I did and watch the impact of him, the horror in their eyes like he did to his wife and daughter in which you'll probably do again. He's talking to BAU. Yeah. I think that's exactly what he's going to do. And then, and then as he gets a little bored and people get bored with him, he might, he might start learning about other things, he'll start dribbling out like Dennis Raider day. Oh, I got a little bit of here, a little bit of there. Oh, did I say eight? Oh, maybe it was nine, ten. Oh, did you look down on South Carolina, North Carolina? I'm seeing what I mean. He's going to, he's going to keep playing with everyone till a day he dies. Yeah. Do you think, do you think there's more Shivan, other than the eight, especially the South Carolina where there is the death penalty and they use it? I would sure bet. So I think, I think that, that would definitely fit. And the other thing that comes to mind is by telling these stories, he makes the families suffer.

16:51Yeah. And these guys get pleasure from that. One of the people who owned that was the Parkland school shooter who said very openly in some of his writings and some of the conversations when they were saying, oh, well, maybe he'll feel guilty during the trial, you know, watching the family suffer. He said, I like to feel, I like to see the family suffer. So. And a revel in the victim impact statements unless they get up there and do with the, I keep forgetting. Go burgers. Yeah. You know, you know, I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. And eviscerate him as only you can, a psychopath, and assault his insignificance, assault the manhood, assault, you know, the, the nothing he is in the world and how the world will just forget about him. Other than that, he's going to revel in their victim statements. So I hope I don't give him anything. I hope they don't give him anything to relish. Yeah. That's it. That's a myth. We have to have the bust as well. That victim impact statements for a true sadistic psychopath that that hurts them. It doesn't hurt them.

17:51They love it. They love it. It's a treat. Yeah. It's, it's the cake at the end of the party. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's messed up. Shaman Scott, psychotherapist and author, as always, thank you so much. Her latest book, Nightbird, it is available wherever you get books, highly suggest going and winning. You know, Nightbird and award winning, yes, as well. Rob and Drake, it's all not all about me. It's available also wherever you get books, go and check them. Not award winning. Yes. Yes. So a lot of copies, I sold a lot of copies, but other than that. That is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Go check them both out. And your thoughts in the comments section on Substacking YouTube, we will continue our conversation there. Press subscribe wherever you're getting podcasts or watching us. We don't miss any of our conversations, like I said, we'll continue it in the comments until next time. For Shivan, for Todd, for Robert, I'm Tony Bruceke, we'll talk again real soon.