Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 112: Galore Galore!

0:00This is exactly right. Hello, we have incredible news. The exactly right store is having an end of summer sale from September 3rd through September 7th. You can save up to 30% off store-wide on my favorite murder and exactly right merch. The more you spend, the more you save. Now's the time to grab that shirt. Toat, hat, koozie, whatever else has been sitting in your cart for the last three months. Had to exactly right store.com and use code summer sale for up to 30% off store-wide, some exclusion supply. Goodbye. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. They take matters into their own hands. I vowed I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that. Trust your girlfriends.

1:01Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me babe. On the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a bookshelf and you're a 4U page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet and pop culture. With your favorite writers, book talk creators and plenty of over thought opinions. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to pro society on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

2:05This is the show where we recap our early episodes with new case info and old feelings. Today we're Rewinding an episode 112 which we named galore galore. This episode came out on March 15th, 2018. Let's listen to the intro of episode 112. Hi, Karen. Welcome. Georgia to my favorite. That's it. There we are. When we do this switch up thing, it immediately feels like I'm in second grade. I immediately want to ruin it. You mean like just say the line that isn't your line? Yeah, because I hate it. I know it's really dumb. Like blow it off all through the moon, you know? Yeah, that's the feeling I get too. But also it's so easy to follow. It is. And you just know what to do. And it's catchy and there's a jingle. I don't remember. It reminds me of camp. Oh. My favorite. Camping story. I think Camping story. I think Camping story. Camping story. Camping story. I think Camping story.

3:06Camping story. Camping story. Oh, I have it right off the bat. Well, no. Do you want to write off the bat the same corrections corner myself? Out in front of even the show itself to correct yourself. At last, I just want to say, there's someone putting out to bend to it or last week during my murder. I said the word trans best site. I should have said transgender. And I think even in my mind, I wasn't totally like clear on the differences. Yeah, I think the person who wrote to us and lots of people were saying, what a good call in and not a call out. The person said, it's the modern phrase is trans. Yeah. So I screwed that up and I 100% will do my best to move forward and fuck in. Just do it right. Well, here's the thing. It was such a lovely phrase tweet. But I don't know. Like when someone says, you know, the common parlance is trans, I just am speaking from what I've known from when I heard people talk about it.

4:08So it's like, we do need those updates. Absolutely. And like, you know, I think I copied and pasted some fucking thing from Wikipedia and just was reading it. And I need to stop and think about it when I'm doing shit like that. And I know, even though I think I'm like, it was so hard about being corrected when you think you're fucking liberal and woke as fucking like on it. It's so hard to be like, I didn't screw up. I support everyone. Right. You can still screw up. And also, it's just, it's just that fine tuning of, it's not a massive screw up. It's just a person going, look, that just, I don't, it makes me feel discluded or it makes me feel bad. Or it's perpetuating a negative stereotype. Yeah. 100% don't want to be part of it. No, no, no, there's no time for that. And on this podcast of all the things we're trying to do, that's the last fucking thing we're trying to do. Absolutely. Um, it also, I will say in that same vein, in a corrections vein, maybe not all the way in the corner. But somebody on Twitter was like, Hey, if you guys ever talked about wind river and

5:11I was literally standing in my backyard, like doing one thing and then I just wrote, we did it. And I was even really thinking about it. I was like, I was getting four things done at once. We did. And then she took it as, like, she jokingly was like, I was chided, but then I, whatever. And then I, but I really meant this. I was like, I really didn't mean it that way. Of course, it seemed that way. It's Twitter and whatever. But what I did like that she was bringing up, her point was what, and our point was when we talked about it on the podcast is when river is such a great movie because it's finally bringing light to like the murder and missing indigenous women of America and also of Canada. Right. And then they mentioned this podcast that I had been to mention a while ago and hadn't. But so the podcast was called Missing and Murdered. And season one, I listened to it and loved it called who it was about who, it was titled Who Killed Alberta Williams. And that was really good. And the new season just came out and this one's called Finding Cleo.

6:11And it's hosted by and like, you know, made by Connie Walker, who's an investigative reporter and an indigenous woman herself. Yeah. So it's really, it's really good. I, I'm going to listen to Finding Cleo now, but the first one who killed Alberta Williams was really good. Yeah, I can't wait to listen to it. But I have to look up Missing and Murdered as the name. The name of it is Missing and Murdered. Yeah. I would, I liked that because I was also going to say on Twitter and then I was like, never explain anything on Twitter. It's a, it's so pointless. But I wanted to say like when we did our Vancouver show last, the last time we were on tour and we were in Vancouver, I wanted to do the highway, the tears, but the, there are so many victims and there's no, there's kind of no single story. It's just all these disappearances and all these really sad stories. So it was like, I wanted to explain on Twitter. Yeah, I've never tackled that because once I started looking into it, it was this expansive and they each have, they each have either an episode like Alberta Williams in this one.

7:13It is one of the women from the highway of tears, but it has not, you know, it's, it maybe has nothing to do with any of the other women and, and it's its own. It's like, you know, multi-part story itself. So it's so hard to. Each one of those cases should be, it, it's like, it's, it gets so vast. It's very much like the grim sleeper. Yeah. It had, it went on for so long that there are so many people that you're talking about that you can't not under, under like, serve those victims. And then I was going to do like three of the three victims or one of the victims was, it was solved when I found out that it was this serial killer and it was caught in a really cool way, but then it's none of the women who this was solved about were indigenous. So then I was like, I'm going to only do the highway of tears with the non-indigenous women and that doesn't sound right. So I didn't do that one. Well, that's kind of, yeah, that's not the point. For what that story is. So it's very cool that there are people that are dedicating entire true crime podcast to that area.

8:15And thank you guys for, who, to the people who brought all that stuff up for us on Twitter. We appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, fun times in the sunshine. Let's go fun. Let's have something. Let's go to camp. We had a little campy kind of event because on the podcast, I said I wanted to take a tour of Jet Propulsion Laboratories, which is a place here in, very close to where we are right now in Pasadena, where they build things like the Mars Rover and things that they put on Mars and other planets. That's Mars is the only one I know. But so in saying that on the podcast, we got some responses from people who actually worked at JPL who were like, I can give you a tour. And the person that I guess either Stephen picked or seemed the most credible, maybe it was the most high end. Yeah. Like we got the guy. He was vetting it. Yeah. Yeah. Stephen was going, he was only going for the superstars of JPL.

9:16We got a guy who is an engineer named Lou Gersh and he is in charge. All right. Listen to this shit. He is in charge of entry, descent and landing systems analysis for the Europa project, Europa being a moon of Jupiter. Sure. Which Georgia knew. She already knew that. Even though I didn't go because I was sick. That's right. It was me. It was Stephen. It was our friend, Scotty Landis. And we took a full on tour of this place. It's like this gorgeous college campus, but only smart people, which that's the way colleges should be. And did you see that guy when we were walking in and building, there was a guy that walked out and he was wearing a total like blues brother suit. And he had kind of like longish like the early 80s guy hair and he was, I was like, look at that rocket scientist. He's so cute. Like everywhere I looked, I was like, that's the most fascinating person. Like everyone just seemed so cool and smart and they were all working on putting things onto different planets.

10:17Oh my God. It was incredible. Can I say, can I tell you a love story? Sure. I know a girl named Nicolette and her Sheridan. Her like super gorgeous husband is a super smart rocket scientist. Loving it. I think he works at JPL. He was sending, when they started, first started dating, he was sending, listen, I'm getting all of this wrong. But essentially he sends a thing to a planet. Maybe it was the moon. I don't remember. But is the moon a planet or is just our moon? A fucking rock. He sent it to a thing to a place and he fucking wrote her name on the machine that was landing on the moon or Jupiter or Mars. Nicolette. So it's going to be there and it's, you know, it stays there forever. They can't send them back. So he wouldn't say. That's like, would you really like some what? Oh my God. Is this beautiful? So neat is that. I love it. It all in all just, it was an incredible experience. Liu was the best, he was the best guide.

11:18We got to see the coolest things. He's an incredibly friendly, smart, cool guy. And his wife, Lindsay is also listener. So hi you guys. And thank you so, so much. We actually got to shop at the JPL gift store at the end. But my dad, Hat got my niece, his sweatshirt, got myself a sweatshirt. I was going to buy you a shirt. And then I looked at it. I was like, this is cute. She liked this font. And I was like, really? And then I'm like, she will never wear this shirt. Like this is not your style. You just wanted to spend money. I did. It was so fun to shop. And they had like, Steven, you bought. I bought, I bought space ice cream. Yeah. I love it. They haven't changed the package since we were children, right? It's insane. It's an astronaut, neon color. Neopolitan ice cream too. And how was it? It wasn't good. No. I took one bite and I turned to Karen. And I was like, oh, this is bad. But it was like the thing of like, I would always see that. And I'd want it. And of course, my dad or my mom would be like, no. Yeah. And then I finally was like, I have my own money. Yeah.

12:19That's my life. They were right. They're just like, oh, yeah, this is what substitutes as ice cream. Right. In the furthest, darkest space. Because ice cream is good. Ice cream is good. So anyway, the next time you hear about any kind of a, any, the rover of any type being landed on your rope, which is a moon of Jupiter. Uh-huh. That's Lou. That's Lou, baby. Thanks Lou. Lou and his team and everybody else to JPL, the coolest, the coolest scientists around. And we say, all right, peace, Stephen Hawking. Oh, very nice, nice fold, fold in. And Cap. Um, I did you see my tweet where my dad texted me at 11 at 10, 45 at night and goes, I read a thing where Stephen Hawking died. Amazing. What does that mean? It he, I think he meant like one amazing life. He meant a bunch of stuff that he didn't write. Such a dad. It made me laugh so hard.

13:20Amazing. Yeah, you mean dying, dying, being a human being. It is amazing. I love it. All right. I also found out I, I got some information from my dad. My mom used to give my dad shit all the time because he used to have a Jewish girlfriend when he was in his 20s. And she, she would be like, I know you liked her more than me. She knew her name for some reason. It was like a running joke between them. And last night we were talking when I called my dad to console him about his amazement about Stephen Hawking's death. Somehow that came up. Oh, she, because he found out she was next door neighbors with, or he knew and told me she was next door neighbors with Dick Van Dyke when she was growing up. Whoa. And I'm like, oh, so she was like rich, rich and he goes, oh, yeah, they lived in Belair. And I'm like, I go, Dad, I'm going there. You could have been rich. A rich kid. A rich, I could have been half Jewish and half Irish, which is so badass. Yeah. Imagine the confidence and the guilt.

14:23Anyway, so I told my dad, I texted my dad that I was going to find her address and go ring the doorbell and say that I was the family's long lost daughter and he wrote, don't embarrass me. Anyway, I'm going to embarrass my family so much on stage on Friday. I'm going to do it anyways. It's not about them. No, it's not. It's not about you. It's about me. Please focus on what's important. Me in a jumpsuit that doesn't look good on me. We're going to get you the best outfit. You know what we're going to do? You know what we're going to do? Karen, we're going to get you a big chunky necklace. We're going to send it at the waist. We're going to belt it. We're going to belt it and send it. We're going to get spank's arms sleeves. That's fucking right. We're going to wear a fucking. You're going to wear like long gloves up to your fucking tits. It's going to be amazing. You know what we're going to do? We're going to send my tits out by themselves. Just let them do the show. Opening number. Lead with the tits, ladies. Absolutely. I actually thought of that where I'm like, what if this is a show where I just go out, just LA style and be like, Angelina Clevage and a fan across my face?

15:26You can have you hold on a second. You know what we haven't talked about? Did you see the thing that someone posted on Twitter and they're like, you were in the Oh, that British. I don't want to talk about it. Oh my god. They made me laugh my ass off. They said you're in the observer, some British, like newspaper and it was only a picture of Georgia. No, and it's like the best photo of me. It's such a good picture. Thank God. Well, you know what I was thinking? It's only me. It's hilarious. Why did that happen? Um, I, one of a couple reasons, but I don't think there's any pick any, any decent picture of me where I'm standing like full body that I would be the same size as you and look normal next year. But there's a really great photo that Robyn Monswing took of us are like, yeah, but it wouldn't fit in that lineup because they were trying to fit those five people. It was like five pod and I look like I'm fucking hanging out with the Osborne. You, you look like you are on a red carpet like Hollywood style. I was. And when I looked at, for what?

16:27For this, for like the food video, the food tastes towards like the food. Oh yeah. And this is like three years ago. And I clearly look like that's my best. I don't know that would be. No, I doubt it. Um, no, you've got so much more ahead of you, girl. Thank you. I was, I have to say I was insanely relieved because I was just like, I don't know a picture that I can imagine being put next to that picture that I would be like, oh great. My midsection is in that newspaper. What, but what's also really funny is Josie, I'm not going to be able to remember her last name off hand, but she's a little bit further down. And she's still on the east, she's a British woman that used to be on whose line is it anyway with her, her props and Ryan styles all the time, like the original one. She's super. She's, I want to say Josie Moran, but that's not right. And she is truly one of the, she's one of the funniest people on the planet. Hold on, hold on. And I wonder if the girl that tweeted it to us, because that's how I saw it, if she thought

17:28that that was me. Oh, I mean, I doubt it. Josie Lawrence. Josie Lawrence. Yeah. I mean, one of the best improvisers there is, and one of the funniest women on the planet. So I was like, well, maybe she's mistaken us. Look how sassy I look in this. Yeah, I know, I know. Who is that girl? Good luck with your fucking podcast. All right, it's my turn. I look like her. I look like her. Like at your time, I'm like, oh, yes. I look like her. No, it's such a good picture. I'm happy about that. Okay. I found a new, okay, I wonder if you've never heard of it. Like a new police crime drama. Get me on Netflix. Okay. I'm going to get I feel like I wanted to text you over the weekends. I've been sick and been squizzed gone. So I just fucking binge watch this shit. And I was like, I'm going to tell Karen, it's Norwegian. The break? No. It's Norwegian. The dark? No, which is great because you read it. It's subtitled so you can eat crackers really loudly and you don't have to turn it louder.

18:30Which I realized over the weekend, how great that was. It is called border liner. Yes, I just started it. Oh my God, how hot is the cop? It's crazy. And he's secret gay. Secret gay, which is always making out with the other hottest guy, his lawyer. For some reason, I didn't see that coming. When you're watching a foreign show, I always, from watching so many of them, I'm like, I know what this usually contains. You're going to set up like the haggard mother that's still getting it all done and a cop. And then the female cop's going to come along and she's hot and they're going to make out. Yes, you just think you know all the tropes. Yeah. And that guy started kissing that other guy like, we were only in it for two and a half minutes. Totally. It was shockingly hot. It was surprisingly exciting. He is the guy who plays a hockey cop. His name I don't have and probably couldn't pronounce if I wanted to. Right. It's Vince Dotser's daughter. Right. It's so beautiful. Yeah. It's such a handsome cop.

19:32But anyways, I'm like almost out with it and it's really good. Shit keeps happening. Shit keeps happening where I'm like, I would have just told already. Like they keep getting themselves deeper and deeper. Oh, like, yeah, I know. Sometimes like the line of, you can't suspend disbelief that long. Yeah. But I get it when it's like, well, if I now tell him and even more trouble than if I just had told him the beginning, now I'm fucked. It needs to keep happening. Yeah. It's good and there's a strong female lead who's like onto everyone's lies and it's just like going for the truth. She's a fucking detective as well. Love it. Going for it. There's something about those foreign procedures. Maybe it is the subtitles that I really love. Yeah. It's so much, I like it. They make it very clear. Yeah. I've spent all day by myself typing on some, in some version, most of it with you. But just lots and lots of typing and writing in silence. Yeah. So I'm really just getting these words up on their feet right now. Just trying some stuff out.

20:32And I just keep saying things and then going like, don't, what? No. I spent the weekend alone and didn't, I left the house for 15 minutes maybe because it was gone, you know, and I like, didn't change my clothes. I didn't shower. I was just like, here's, and then it was a good reminder of like, here's what you're like alone. Not everyone. But I am a particularly bad single person. Yes. So it was nice, a nice reminder. And then not talking, but then I realized I was talking because I was just having whole conversations with my cats. Yes. You know, that's, that's where we go to narrating their lives. I mean, I start fake arguments just to entertain myself where I'll be like, what are you two doing in here? And they're just laying there, like watching me, only with their eyes moving. Oh, it's so fun. Yeah. It's, um, there's nothing like being a hermit. Um, should we go, should we, we can just like do it? Let's just get into it. I, uh, I feel like I just had one more other thing to tell you though.

21:35Oh, I was just going to say, I'm really excited for our LA show. We, I was going to do an LA show in two days. I'm super excited, but I'm starting to get insanely nervous. It's so much higher stakes. Yeah. Because people we know are going to be there. It feels like, it feels like we've done all these great shows with all these amazing people all around the country and have these amazing experiences. And they were all people we didn't know. Right. And there's no way we can prove it. I know. It doesn't matter that all that great stuff happened because now it's just like, now you just got to put up a shut up in your hometown. It's going to be like some of my girlfriends are coming and my fucking mom and dad are coming and like my aunt might come and, and then all our agents are going to be there. No. It's going to be scary. It's like, feels official and then it also feels like, you know, I also feel like last time we played LA into the Orphium, I didn't do like, I was, I was new at it. Yes. So I wasn't on my game.

22:36It was a while ago. Yeah. And so I feel like I, this is now my time to prove to all these LA people that I don't suck anymore. Which is a little bit of pressure as if you haven't been performing and posting live shows where you, it's in no way sucked. But LA doesn't know that. No, I know. LA doesn't know anything. And that's the problem is that like it, it's very, when we, when this podcast started to actually get popular in a way that, that actually mattered to me where I was just like, nah, like in the beginning, I just didn't buy it. And you would show me things. I just feel like this is a bunch of bullsh**. And I was like, look, you've like stuck getting excited. It's going to end. It's going to end. Don't be, I just needed to curb your, I want, I didn't want to see the heart break. I just wanted to get it over with. Like this thing is going to fucking snap back on both of us. So hard. You're going to regret the day that you were happy. You will rue the day you asked me over. But so to have it, when something matters in LA, I just, it's like, I've lived here for 25 years and nothing fucking matters.

23:36Like nothing punches through. Right. So then to actually punch through, you think that's what you want to do, then it starts happening and you're like, oh my god. Well, I think that's like that for anyone with success with low self esteem or with like low self worth is when you get success, you doubt it so much that you're like any kind of success, you're like bullshit. Who's fuck, why are you fucking with me, you know, instead of being like, this is great. And I'm enjoying it. Right because you planned for what, you planned for how it's going to happen. And my therapist told me I worship at the altar of doubt. And so anything good that happens, I'm like, no one hears why. And it's good that I feel this way. Yeah. Because now I'm taking care of myself. Right. It takes time to catch up. So then I feel like I'm just catching up in these last couple of days where I was like, shoot, I meant to lose 40 pounds. Oh shoot, I meant to do this and that. Like, oh shoot, we were going to decorate the stage or whatever. Like it felt like it was, we were supposed to do some big, like we're auditioning for our own show. It's Wednesday and I just was like, maybe we should get our makeup done.

24:37And I emailed him like a friend and I'm like, she's got to have a job that day. She's not going to do it. Here's the thing. I know it's going to be fun. And I know that when I am nervous for something, which doesn't happen that often because I'm an old Ben around the block. Saddle. I'm going to be yourself. And I'm going to have to step out. Ask you to stop eating me and my friend. Okay. All right. But I'm just saying, it's fun to be excited at this late date. It's going to be great. It's all people supporting us except my mom. And it's just going to be amazing. I'm just going to focus on Janet's face the whole time. If I don't do well, she'll be so disappointed. She's just... Jesus. Okay. We're back. I did have a corrections corner about using the term transvestite when I met transgender.

25:38And again, apologies for that. You know, I feel like there were so many things we were learning in the first couple of years of this podcast that I'm so glad we did. I feel like two nowadays with the full cultural dominance of drag, everybody knows their terminology. And everybody's gotten a really good education. The people that care have gotten their education about stuff like this. But I think we've proven on this show that our hearts are in the right place and that we're totally willing to learn. Totally. And correct ourselves, for sure. Yeah, it's been... We've been lucky that we've been given that grace. Also on the missing and murdered Indigenous women, girls and two spirit people issue. There was a major update after this episode. Canada's national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls released its final report on June 3rd, 2019. And Connie Walker also continued doing major investigative podcast work after missing and murdered. And the first podcast stolen, surviving St. Michael's won both the Pulitzer Prize and a Peabody

26:39Award in 2023. And it was the first podcast series to win both in the same year, which is so incredible. That's amazing. Connie Walker's work on this topic, on like the native topics about the injustices of like First Nation tribes in this country in Canada, just in general. But I think in Canada, specifically for Connie Walker, it's amazing. I've been trying to work on a story about residential schools for so long. And Marin and I have been working on Molly, all talking about it and working on it. But it is such a vast, like the amount and extremity of abuse in those schools is so horrifying. It's like trying to put a concise story together, you know, from my point of view, it's taken forever. Because we're just like, how do we do this in a way that's actually going to be helpful to these conversations? Totally. You know, until we figured out, definitely go support Connie Walker, listen to Stolen, surviving St. Michael's, listen to Missing and Murdered, like a native woman doing the work

27:39on behalf of her own people is, it's really powerful. Do you remember that LA show? I do. It was a good one. That was the one where the house lights were basically up the entire time. I could see every single person in the audience at that show. That makes it harder. That really makes it harder. And you can make eye contact with people. It was a really beautiful theater. It was very gold. Yeah. And it kind of felt like very fancy. Yeah. It was really fun. It was cool being downtown too, because like it's so historic, you know, there's just, yeah, when we go in those old historic theaters, it makes it, it just fits our creepy ass haunted vibe so much. And then to do that in Los Angeles, if all places is such an honor. Yeah. So exciting. Well, let's get into Georgia story about the murder of Rachel Hoffman. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. We have incredible news. The exactly right store is having an end of summer sale from September 3rd through September

28:467th. You can save up to 30% off store-wide on my favorite murder and exactly right merch. The more you spend, the more you save. Now's the time to grab that shirt. Toat, hat, koozie, whatever else has been sitting in your cart for the last three months. Had to exactly right store.com and use code summer sale for up to 30% off store-wide. Some exclusions apply. Goodbye. Goodbye. I think it's you, right? Didn't I do it last time? Oh, yeah. I go first to send. Yeah. Great. This is a case that I brought up a while back and couldn't remember the name of it and everyone told me, of course, that was listening. And I couldn't, I couldn't remember, but I was so obsessed with this when I first heard about it. So I'm so surprised I haven't done this one yet. This is the murder of Rachel Hoffman in the creation of Rachel's Law. And I heavily leaned on a 2012 New Yorker magazine article called The Throwaways by Sarah

29:50Stillman and like she wrote that piece, like one awards. It's so good. Okay, so she listened. I just used a lot of her stuff. Cool. And she's, and thank you. Okay. So Rachel Morningstar Hoffman was born December 17, 1984. She was this bright, friendly, open, lovely person. Everyone who met her loved her in my 20th, 2008. Oh, so recently, okay. Yeah. By 2008, so she's 23 years old. She had just graduated from Florida State University in Tallahassee. Also we're Ted Bundy finished up. Uh-huh. Yeah. With an undergraduate degree in criminal justice and psychology. Well, so she's also, she'd also interned as a mental health, a mental health institute. And she had just been admitted to a master's program in mental health counseling, but she was also considering culinary school because she wanted to use cooking to connect

30:53with at-risk youth and like and counsel them through cooking. Wow. She's like a fucking good person. That's a great idea too. Yeah. Right. So picture like young pre, oh my god, what the fuck? Miley Cyrus. She kind of looked like that. Like little Hannah Montana before she transformed the Hannah, I don't know, I didn't watch the show, but I was long hair. Yeah. Like long, pretty red hair, cute face. She looked like, she looked like a hippie, like a hippie jock that you, you know, would know. And she likes going to like fast music festivals, but not like Coachella, you know, we're with the fucking, not she wasn't using culture appropriation and going to like fish concerts and jam bands and shit. I like, why are you saying that like that's so much better? I mean, come on. I mean, I would both rather stay home, but I'm not a 23 year old. Am I? It's not an either or there's so many other options. You're right. She was Jewish. She had been, you know, whatever. And she had a social media account for her cats, her cat, whatever 2008 social media

31:56account was she made one for her cat. She was just like, yeah, oh my face. But she's just go to these music festivals with all her friends and she'd always wear this crazy purple fluffy hat. That was her thing. Her signature was jammera kueh appropriation. Exactly. Exactly. So she was an only child and she was close to her parents, but what they didn't know was that she was in a court ordered substance abuse program because in February of 2007, while she was a senior in college, police had pulled her over for speeding and found almost an ounce of pot in her car, which isn't a lot of pot, right? I don't think so. Okay. But don't drive around. Oh, no, no, no, no, don't do it. Especially in Florida. Oh, God. No, I mean, like California, don't do it. Right. Florida, don't, don't do it. So it required that she take regular drug testing, but instead of being charged with anything, they just made her go to this court ordered substance abuse program.

32:57White. Right. She wasn't in prison. I mean, she didn't stay there any like that, but she had to go. Anyway, and she was keeping that from her family. I don't think they knew. I think you're pretty sure they didn't know. She did smoke pot, though regularly, and she also sold in small quantities to her friends around campus, college shit. Yeah. You know, not, I'm not fucking saying it's okay at all. But if you're wearing a big fuzzy hat, you're probably going to smell, sell small amounts of it and smell it. And you're going to smell like small amounts of pot. Well, it just so happens that her neighbors a year later in April, 2008 smelled pot. It's funny that you segmented into that and coming from her apartment and we're like, called the cops. We're like, do you got to check this house out? I think it's a drug house. What? I know. Okay. And so it's really chill neighbors, cool people. The best neighbors. Right. I just remember when we lived in our old place and our neighbors were like up in our

34:01faces. We lived so close to us. I once yelled at some kid to be quiet because he was screaming his fucking head off and his mom yelled, I know what you guys do. Just because he's been smoked pot and she smelled it. And I was like, oh no. Good come back. You got it. You're right. Your child should be able to scream as much as he wants because we smoke pot. Okay. They when they searched their apartment because of this and they found just under a quarter pound of weed for ecstasy pills and two volume pills. And I asked Vince how maybe how much is a quarter pound of marijuana and he looked it up and told me and he said it would cost at that time around $800 to $1,000. Oh. So she's probably it's an intent to sell probably as well. You don't have that much pot. Yeah. Because of this, she could face serious prison time for felony charges, including possession of cannabis with intent to sell and maintaining a drug house. So she's freaking the fuck out over this. She just got an fucking admitted to this master's program.

35:02You know, what am I going to do? Blah blah blah. The officer in charge at this point, Ryan Pender knew that she was just a small time drug person supplying to her friends wasn't a fucking kingpin or whatever. Right. So offers to make her a deal. All she has to do is identify other marijuana dealers in town. Do you know this one? I feel like I have a shade of of it. Yeah. Oh my god. Here we go. Yeah. Has to identify. She just has to identify other pot dealers in town and she'll get off. They won't even charge her with anything. The answer has to be known. Always know I want to lawyer. You can't be a snitch. You can't be a snitch. Don't do it. Don't trust that that's what's going to happen. Right. The concept of anonymity, please, from all movies and TV we know that will be broken. Well, here we go. Okay. So she was like, no, I won't do that. Some of those people are her friends and she refused to snitch on her friends.

36:05But then they were like, well, how about then instead you become a confidential informant, a C.I. they call them in a drug sting, string, string operation, like a bigger one. And she thought that any charges would be reduced or even drops as she agreed to become a C.I. Right. So the next day she first tried to set up another student at Florida State who was a small time campist dealer and she felt so guilty about it that she called the guy and told him what she planned to do. She's just like a, like look at her photo. She's like a sweet baby angel and not that it's okay, but she's clearly in her fucking head. Yes. Well, see, that's the thing is that idea that you're going to, here's how I'm going to solve things here. I'm going to get a little extra spending money by not getting a job at Staples. What I'm going to do is sell small amounts of like reasonable costs. Yeah. And it's like, that's fine except for you are now in the drug world. Exactly. And that's how things spin out past your control.

37:06Like you're just pretending that you will have control. Yeah. And you keep doing that and you keep making bigger and bigger bets like we were talking about exactly like a Norwegian procedural dramas. Yes. Ask, always get a lawyer immediately. Get that lawyer. Keep your mouth shut. Yeah. Um, so the guy who she called and was like, I'm sorry, he forgave her, but also agreed to help her with police. Oh, stuff. So he, the police had told Rachel at this point that run of the mill, pop bus would not fucking suffice. And they needed bigger dealers. So this was totally not Rachel's fucking thing. She didn't know bigger dealers. Right. But the, the, the Lord, the student that she had called was like, I know someone. There's a dude at a car detailing shop near campus who he's seen dealing drugs and I, and he said, I bet he can hook you up. So she didn't even know this guy. Oh no. So Rachel goes to the car shop and speaks with the guy.

38:06His name is Danilio Bradshaw. He's 23 and he gets his brother in law, Andre Green, who's 25 to help her as well. She lets them know she needs a bunch of cocaine, 1500 ecstasy pills. Oh no. And as she described it, a quote, small and pretty handgun. What? So, and they were like, why the fuck do you need a little thing need a handgun? And she said, I'm a little Jewish girl. I need to protect myself. So this, I mean, she got caught with four ecstasy pills and they're giving her the total amount that they, that for all this would cost that they were going to give her was $13,000. Huh. So this isn't a amount that is that way beyond her level of comprehension as a drug person. Yeah. But thinking behind this of like, we're going to get a mole and it's a person who is not truly in the drug world. Totally.

39:06Like, it's such a sideways approach. Right. So on the afternoon of when the drug bus was supposed to go down when she was going to bus them, so Rachel goes to the police headquarters and officer Pender places a surveillance wire and recording device in her purse, which I guess is totally against standard procedures. They usually hide it more and it's not in her purse. Yeah. Which also is where that she had it would have to keep her purse on her the whole time. Yeah. Which probably looks suspicious. Yeah. They gave her $13,000 in marked bills. Can you imagine carrying $13,000 right with you? I did a lot. That's just, it's how I'm comfortable just so I can get what I want. You always need cash. I need you always do. I always have to borrow like dollar bills for the ballet for me. For some reason, I've never had dollar bills. You know, it's really funny. I can't remember what happened, but I, something happened where I didn't have use of my ATM card. I'm sure I lost it. I just, a thing I often do is just entirely blank on the pin. Like, I'll just be standing there. I'll be like, no, no, no. I do what that is. Is it every day?

40:07No idea. I've done that like twice. But so I keep somewhere in my home. Why would I ever say this? But I mean, I keep cash so that I can always have it. Because that's kind of my weird fear. Yeah. So I also squirt away like, just put, I'll put like $3 bills in my car somewhere. Do you remember where you keep all of it? No, no, no. I don't think about it. I don't want to look at it. It's just like, I know something is there just in case they need it. Well, they say like for the end days, you know, like you told, keep your gas tank full. Yeah. But also hide money in your house. Hide money and make sure that money is gold the bloons because no cash money won't help you. Well, you know my fucking dad bought me silver. He's like, that's true. Silver paper money is not going to have any value during the end days. Right. Silver will always have value. He thinks that's what's going to happen. Uh-huh. I don't think about you a whole bunch of bananas because that third mad Max fresh fruit was just the ultimate trading item. Karen's on to something.

41:08Remember, just get, I don't know if bananas have seeds or if you have to grow a tree or whatever. We get a banana tree. There is a mini banana tree in this complex. Is that true? I can't imagine they're at a law. Just build a little fence around it and say, please, this is mine. Put a poster note that says, this is my yogurt. I'm eating these bananas. I have a lemon tree, but that's in that's just going to give me a bunch of like, canker sores. I want it. No, everyone's going to need a, what's it called? Citrus? Yeah, but the vitamin C. I don't see. So they don't get scurvy? Yeah. Okay, then I have to build my fence out, be around my lemon tree. And we drink for pool water. Yeah. Frank already drinks the pool water over. Oh, Frank. Fucking Frank. You know, I'm a jacuzzi cat. Drinks the fucking pool water too. And they do it. I can guarantee you that the owner of jacuzzi cat, they have like a, one of those other things that has like a waterfall in it. And they still won't drink that stuff. Animals, right? Am I right? Make them a my space page. My cat's already have an Instagram account.

42:10Okay. So they, the police assure her that they would be watching her the entire time in listening. They were 19 law enforcement agents tracking her and a drug enforcement administration surveillance plan, plan or plane was circling overhead. So they, she thought that they were, she was taken care of. Right. So she's supposed to meet the guys, the drug dealers at a public park. And then all these weird things happen like on her way there or maybe she had met them and they're like, let's go to a different location, which she wasn't supposed to do. They go to that location. And then the agents had, you know, she had been breaking up because it was like an outdoor park. There's not a lot of sales service. It was not an indoor park. It was not. It was not the park. Well, there was not the bio down. It wasn't. Um, this is the saddest thing. Her boyfriend, when she texted him that she's on her way, her boyfriend joked, uh, texted, I kind of like you.

43:10So be safe. Oh, no. No. So then she, so she loses contact with the officer while she's on her way to the second location. And by the time he hears from her again, she tells him that they're, she's following them to another location. And this one's at the end of a dead end road. And before, so this is what Pender, officer Pender says before he tell her not to go knowing that a dead end road is a really bad thing to be caught in. He loses contact with her completely again. But she didn't know that they had lost contact with her. Yeah, because she's not a fucking cop. She's not a trained anything. Exactly. And she didn't know they lost contact. She didn't know that they couldn't even hear her wire. Um, cause how would she know? Right. Cause she had been on the cell phone with her, that dies and she's like, well, I'm so wired. So, so she didn't know. And there was a helicopter at some point. So they must be monitoring me in some way. Right. Um, so at this point, officers being frantically searching the area, trying to find her, uh,

44:14and the DEA plane circles overhead. But there's like, because it's an outdoor park, there's all this dense brush I had in overhead so they can't see anything. Um, by the time they find the road and the turn off, Rachel and her car gone, everyone's gone and instead they found a spent 25 caliber round and two live ammunition rounds, six cigarette butts and a single black flip flop, which Rachel had been wearing when she left the station. Oh, no. I remember reading about this when it happened in 2008, sort of like 28 and like just being so sad, but also I was picturing her and how that, how, you know, when she knew something was going down and how awful that would have felt, but also, you know, I had dabbled in drugs before and how usually I, you know, she was this Jewish girl who was just fucking around and having this time in her life when she was trying something new and made bad decisions, which I totally did too. Yeah. There's no reason I, I wouldn't have been in that situation as well.

45:16Right. So it's, it's just, and it's the thing of which, which happens to people of all walks of life all the time, which is you did a bad, we caught you doing a very minor bad thing. Your life you were ruined or you now you have to get involved in this other thing that you like now you just have no choice. Now you're kind of our pawn, right? And just so frightening. Yeah. Just that feeling of having no choice and no way to get out of a situation. Yeah. You always do, even if it's fucking going to jail for nine months, you know, it happens. Take the hit like Henry Hill and just fucking do your time and what am I saying? I've never. Karen's going out in a play as well. I mean, no way, no way I'm going back to jail. No way. Okay. So at this point, Rachel had been working as a CI for the police department for almost three weeks. So that said, and she and yeah. So let's fucking veer off and talk about CI is for a minute.

46:17Rachel was just one and this whole article, this amazing article by Sarah Stoman has a lot of information about this. I'm just kind of picking some parts, obviously. So Rachel was just one of thousands of people every year that helped police build cases in exchange for leniency of their own cases, as we know. And it's estimated up to 80% of all drug cases in America involved CI's. Yeah. That's crazy. 80%? 80%. And this is partly because police departments have these crazy budget issues. They don't have the kind of money to get undercover officers and untrained CI's are the only way they can bust these people. And it's a small, it's like a small town. They know the cops. So everyone knows who the cops are. I'm going to send one of them in and I'm fucking fake mustache and be like, I don't have some drugs, please. Yeah, you can't just donny brosk out of it up when you're in like small town of America. Exactly. But it also means that they're sending out untrained, sometimes juvenile juvenile juvenile. I thought you were going to say sometimes Jewish.

47:20Sometimes even Jewish. Can you believe it? Occasionally as young as 14 or 15? No. Sometimes addicted people to do and play some as undercover officers. Yeah. So another factor that came into play with this whole fucking fiasco is that the was the war on drugs. Yeah. Remember our favorite fucking topic? Yeah. In the mid 80s, Congress enacted federal sentencing guidelines that impose harsh mandatory minimums for even fucking petty drug offenses, which means that some sentences for marijuana sales were longer than those for murder. Yeah. It's ridiculous. And of course that meant that the US prison population over that course of that decade doubled and drug and for informants surged. And what the problem with the CI system is that it's totally unreliable. It's usually young people from lower income communities, often black and Latino who are under pressure to be informants because they face, you know, so much more if they get caught

48:21with these drugs and if they get put to take the jail and, you know, they have no choice. Yes. But to do this. In one fucking insane case, LeBron Gathur, he's a 16 year old student at a public high school in Lebanon, Kentucky. So in a uncharacteristic of him, he gets in an argument with his school's assistant principal and punches him in the face. He's taken into custody for juvenile assault and without a lawyer or parent present, an officer from the Kentucky state police tells him he could go to prison, but he, if unless he agreed to become a local drug informant. So this isn't going to fucking drug charge. After arresting LeBron had to testify before a grand jury against the drug dealer he'd set up Jason Noah. Jason Noah then makes bail. In the very next day, the police sent LeBron back to him to do another thing on the guy

49:22he had just testified against thinking that he didn't know who was the snitch. What? So they sent LeBron wearing a wire to buy more drugs from the stewed. It turns out that, of course, Jason Noah, the drug dealer knew that LeBron was the one who was snitching on him because everyone finds out everything. Right. And also those drug dealers, it's their business. Right. They have to be like three steps ahead. Yeah. And it's like if it was another officer that was being sent out undercover, his officer, buddies would fucking make sure he was safe. But it's just some person that they don't care about it and are not, you know, it's not their business to make sure that this person is neither trained nor really safe. Right. Okay. So detectives lose track of LeBron and during the sting and Jason Noah drives off with him. LeBron is tortured, beaten with a bat, shot, run over by a car and dragged by a chain through the woods and dies.

50:24And it wasn't until 2014. So this was in, I think it's 98. I didn't write it down. 2014, 18 years after his death. Yeah. No idea. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of his, so they fucking ruled in favor of his family in the wrongful death. It got over fucking turned, which is so frustrating. Then finally, the Supreme Court overturned that overturning and in his wrongful death suit and they're awarded $148,000, which is not enough. No, none of it is enough, obviously. But I bet you that's that thing of when they're, they've built a system around this kind of like these kind of setups. Yeah. So when that system crumbles, they have to make sure people can't then retroactively sue that. Right. Because there could be so many people that could do that. Have you said, I mean, people tweet these things on Twitter all the time where the, like in California, in places where drugs be at Potts legal or becoming legal or whatever,

51:26there's these people who are like, here's this woman who made $3 million in her new pot business of making edibles, aren't these cute? And then it's like, and here's this black teenager who has sent to jail for 50 years because they dealt pot. Yeah. And it's the, like there's somebody who tweets it all the time, but it's really mind-blowing of like that white cultural filter of when white people make pot for each other, it's cool because we have cancer and we have pain and CBD oil and blah, blah, blah. And when black people deal pot, you're a criminal and you should be, you should go away to jail forever. And it's super fucked up. I mean, and then in a couple years and a decade and two, like when pot is decriminalized everywhere, if we're going to look back and be horrified at how we've been treating people who are addicted and smoke pot and I mean more than anything, that's the problem is you need to treat the people who are addicted to drugs and need help rather than... I wouldn't prioritize pot and that because that's so many people are able to live their

52:30lives doing pot. There's people who are on oxy-contin who drive like city buses and shit, like there's an oxy-contin problem in this country that's ravaging like certain states. And I mean that's, you know, the war on drugs is almost like bit itself in the ass because now we just have pharmaceutical companies that are like, oh, our drugs are fine. You can't do those drugs and we'll pay the doctor's money if they prescribe them even though they're not necessary. Yeah. And they know they're addictive and we're lying to you about how fucking addictive they are. It's very dark. It's very dark. It's the eye-watch and a revension. Oh, I'm going to walk down those shows. Um, okay. There's also a case and this... So LeBron was African-American, Shelley Hillyard. She's an African-American teen from Detroit and she was caught with half an ounce of marijuana which is not a lot. I'm threatened with jail time but it was especially scary for her because she is trans and so she

53:30would have been sent to a male prison which is super scary for her. Yeah. So she agrees to become a CI. They set her up to set up her drug dealer. He finds out and ultimately strangles, mutilates, burns and dismemberes Shelley's body because she set him up. When witness in the murder case testifies that police had revealed Shelley's identity to her dealer. What? Oh, for an ounce of weed. I mean, I know. Okay, back to Rachel. Okay. So the morning after her disappearance, she's disappeared. The cops call her parents and they're like, hey, have you seen Rachel? Do you know where she is? What? Yeah. And they don't even... Yeah. So they're like, what the fuck? They go to Hattala Hassey. Rachel is missing not that she was a CI or the circumstances of her disappearance. They don't tell her parents anything. They go back to Rachel's apartment to wait and, you know, for next steps or whatever.

54:32They turn on the news and that's when they discovered that she had, quote, provided assistance during a police operation. They find out on TV. On the TV. And then they find out that the official suspect foul play is going on. They don't even know that there was foul play. So then on May 9th, 2008, after a two-day search after Rachel disappears, the two suspects are caught near Orlando and they lead police to a dry creek bed in rural Taylor County, which is southeast of Tallahassee, where Rachel's body is found. Wow. It turns out Rachel... And then it turns out that the two drug dealers had fucking pegged her as a mark from the beginning. And they had never intended to sell her any drugs. All the ecstasy was fucking aspirin. Oh, wow. So they were going to trick her to begin with. So it was even a stupid fucking thing to begin with. And then it's totally... It's not totally clear because no one knows exactly what happened, but it's thought that they found the wire in her purse and freaked the fuck out.

55:37They shot her five times in the head and chest. So at a press conference, at the fucking scene, while her body is still there, the officer, Dave McCronney, McCrainy of the Tallahassee Police Department says, at some point during the investigation, she chose not to follow the instructions. She met Green and Bradshaw on her own. That meeting ultimately resulted in her murder. So they're immediately saying it was her own fault because she went to another location, which is like, can you imagine if she went to one location and they were like, let's go to another one and she was like, no, and refused to. Right. And she thinks there's a plane. There's 19 officers. She's being followed. She's never done this before. She's never done this before. Yeah. And friends and family of Rachel are fucking pissed that the police were trying to portray her also as a hardcore drug dealer, like criminal, even though she had never been convicted of any crimes. And in the media, and that because she didn't follow directions, her murder was her own fault.

56:37That's what they were trying to make it seem. Rachel's parents are fucking pissed. So herb, Hoffman and Margie, why they decide to put all their energy into making policy changes to the way sea eyes are used. So they wanted answers to questions like, why was Rachel used in such a high-risk policing when she had no training? Why was she sent to my semi-automatic pistol when she had never even fired a fucking weapon before? Why was she pressured into taking part in all of this before she consulted a lawyer? And they're also not red Miranda rights and not given their amendment fucking. That's what they're saying. They're not under arrest. So it's basically like, look, if you want this to go away, it's under the table to be under arrest. Right. You're not under arrest. So maybe they don't think to ask for a lawyer. They won policy changes to the program, like not using people in drug treatment programs, which makes sense because part of being in a drug treatment program is not allowed to hang out and associate with people who are dealing and doing drugs.

57:37In the first place, and that non-violent low-level drug offenders like Rachel should not be used in stings targeting traffickers with histories of violence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Additionally, sea eyes should be given the right to counsel. That was their thoughts. And then they found out that California was one of the few states that had any rules governing the use of teenage informants and prohibited recruits younger than 13. Which is like, isn't a great. That's just, cut it off a junior high. Like that, and they're the best example of doing well. Wow. Which I was 13 when I was using drugs. And they could have fucking had me rat on all those kids I was finding. Also when you're 13, like, oh yeah. That's not good. Yeah. Like that idea that you're just going to like, yep, yep, we're going to blackmail this teenager. We're going to blackmail this teenager to get another teenager to get the, whatever year old who sells a little more pot in this town. Yeah. This is a little more pot in this town, which is like, you're not getting, you're not

58:39getting enough to street who's at danger. You're fucking just perpetuating this thing of, you know, then these kids get out of prison and they can't get a job because they have a record. And so California 13, that rule had been put into place after 17 year old Chad McDonald was brutally murdered. And this 15 year old girlfriend raped and shot in retaliation for Chad's work as a low, low level drug C.I. in 1998. Oh my God. Yeah. So then made this kid Chad, B.S.C.I. but everyone knew he was dealing meth and doing meth at the time and the police actually knew that too, but still used him. And everyone knew he was the snitch. And that's what happened. Okay. So Rachel's parents began working on Rachel's Law and they got the father of one of Rachel's friends was a Florida attorney named Lance Block. He agreed to work pro bono to help them. And on May 7, 2009, one year after, on the one year anniversary of Rachel's murder, Rachel's

59:41Law signed by the governor of Florida, but it's stripped of so many provisions. It's so basic. But it does establish new guidelines for law enforcement when dealing with confidential informants. So it does start the conversation of changing the way it's done. And it's the first comprehensive legislation of its kind in the nation. And they're still working to get policy reforms on a national level. So they're still fucking working on it. And in 2012, in a wrongful death lawsuit, Rachel's parents won 2.6 million settlement from the city of Tallahassee along with a formal apology. Wow. Sounds way different than what we're on. Yeah. Oh, I mean, of course. Of the police department's conduct, the grand jury who are not like judge Judy and they don't fucking usually tell people what, you know what I mean? Yeah. They said letting a quote, letting a young amateur woman get into a car by herself with $13,000

1:00:43to go off and meet two convicted felons that they knew were bringing at least one firearm with them was unconscious, was an unconscionable decision that cost Miss Hoffman her life. And an internal Ferris investigation said that police officers have committed at least 21 violations and nine separate policies with this case. Wow. So green and Bradshaw are now serving my sentences for the murder of Rachel Hoffman. And they hurt her. I think her parents put together an annual music and arts festival called the Purple Hatters Ball because I remember she wore that purple hat. Yeah. And it's created to celebrate the memory of Rachel. It's fucking her favorite jam bands and it's like face painting and all these lovely things. And everyone wears purple. And the next festival is in live oak, Florida this June, first and second of 2018. So murdering us.

1:01:44And she was a fucking criminal justice major. So you know, she was in a true crime probably. So that was the murder of Rachel Hoffman. Amazing. So sad. So sad and frustrating. Breast raiding. Yeah. OK, we're back. Do you have any updates? No updates, but I was just thinking about reading this story again or listening to the story again, how cool that this podcast was for us to cover these cases that had been in our heads for so long and had nowhere to go. Because this is one of those cases where I read about it and read about it. And I was like, what the fuck? I want to talk to someone about this. And then being able to cover it is just like the whole point, I guess, but. Right. It feels like you're getting it out there, making sure people know about it. Yeah, because it's just so fucking corrupt and fucked up and sad. And you know, those stories where you're like, I could see that happening to me or I could see how that would happen. And it's just getting her story out.

1:02:45Yeah. It's important and hoping it never happens again. But all right, let's get into Karen's story. We have this big one, the death of Bonnie Lee, Bayclay. Hello, we have incredible news. The exactly right store is having an end of summer sale from September 3rd through September 7th. You can save up to 30% off store wide on my favorite murder and exactly right March. The more you spend, the more you save. Now's the time to grab that shirt. So hat, koozie, whatever else has been sitting in your cart for the last three months. Had to exactly right store.com and use code summer sale for up to 30% off store wide. Some exclusion supply. Goodbye. Welcome aboard season six of the girlfriends flight or fight, which takes place 30,000 feet in the sky. There's great food, comfortable chairs and attentive stewardesses.

1:03:48The stewardesses were so beautiful. But in reality, the stewardess job is far less glamorous than it appears. It was the most sexist job I think you could have. In this era, the airlines told these stewardesses they have to be single. They had no good excuse for why they wouldn't let women be married. They have to be skinny. We were starving ourselves. And they have to be young. You would retire at age 32. But one day, a group of stewardesses said, this has got to stop. They risked it all, turning a fight for fairness into a revolution. Listen to the girlfriends flight or fight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people

1:04:49survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so this, I'm doing this story this week because I mentioned it last time. It's the murder of Bonnie Lee Bayclay. And the eventual trial of famous Hollywood actor Robert Blake. Fuck yes, Karen. And it centers around one of the most popular and exciting Italian restaurants in the valley, Vittelos. It's gone, right? No, I think they redid it. It's still there. Oh, yeah. Okay, it's just totally different now because it used to be like, divey. Well, it used to be let, you know what it was?

1:05:50It was like, clearly it was like built in the 60s, 70s, probably early 70s, I must say. So the inside was like these big, naga hide booths that were like red, red, plastic leather. Love it. There's a huge like wall, you know, frosco or whatever you want to call it. Exactly right. Of like, I don't know, I can't remember if it was like Venice and grapes or everything in their dusty because no one ever cleans them. Yeah, like literal like plastic grapes. Like look at the bounty of Milan or wherever. Yeah, and they have like a glass of house key on T for $3 or whatever. Yes. And they have those like melty red candles. It's just the whole, it's exactly like the classic Italian restaurant. The food, like the garlic bread is just a big loaf of sourdough cut in half with garlic on it. I love all the school places like this. So fucking much I want to cry. Yeah, it's, you know exactly what you're going to get.

1:06:53And Vatelos is good food. Is it? Because I don't even care if it's like a, if it's the fucking on Beyonce's on point, I'm good. Well, do you like opera singers because they have that? Yes, they'll have all the sudden opera singer will bust out singing. Can I tell you something really quickly? Do you know the one that's just like this on Vermont called Stephen? You know, hold on. It's on Vermont. Dresden? No, it's on Vermont across from the house of pies. We go there all. Vincent, I guess it's, it's, um, we used to order pizza from that. I lived on Alexandria. Yeah. Hold on. I cut this. It's like dominoes. It's like it's not. It's, I mean, no, no, dominoes, but like, um, it's called this over the pee. P-challet. Pits. Pits. I'm, yeah, I know. Oh, sorry. We can cut this out. Um, why am I doing this? I like pedrinos. Polarimos. Polarimos, that's right. Oh, leave it. You did it. Polarimos. Leave it in. Leave it in. Polarimos. Just like that.

1:07:54Also, when you go in and you're waiting for your table, you can get a glass of like dollar boxed wine. Yeah. So one time, Vincent went through the first time where like this place is amazing. And it was a Friday night. So they had there a guy with a, um, he, what are they called? Huh, huh, huh, and accordion walking around singing tables and I go, oh my God, that guy fucking was the entertainment at my brother's bar mitzvah. No. I was like, is your name fucking Israel? Whatever it was. And he was like freaking out too. And it was him. And I took a photo and he's like, I remember your brother. No, you don't. Uh, that's amazing. No, you know what it is? It's the not chain hometown restaurant in Petaluma. It's, um, it's vulpes where we go with my family and half of it is the original grocery store from the 20s. Oh my God. That they took the like counter out and put in tables so that you're sitting in the old grocery store and dying. It's really awesome. And that's up the street from that hotel.

1:08:55Petaluma, tell them I want you to stay with you. I'm not coming with you to Petaluma one day. I think we do our Sacramento show. We should stay in it. We can say it Laura's okay. Totally. Um, but anyway, that's, that's so that's the tell us it's, it's neighborhoody. It's very Italian like it's, it's, it's, if you like kiss your fingers, you know, style Italian bullshit, that's, it's there. Is that they're saying? Yes. That's actually painted on the sign. If you like kiss your finger style Italian bullshit, this is your jam, a row. Um, so this was the play. Okay. So let's just get into this fucking thing because it's so insane. So we'll just talk first about Robert Blake. Great. He famous actor and up until this point, he was kind of one of those, he was like a Hollywood stalwart, I would say. He started, he was one of the kids on our gang. Oh, really? Yeah. He was for in the little rascals original, they called them the film series. Wow. They didn't know that.

1:09:55Yeah. And he grew up, he was born in Nettley, New Jersey to a Vodville family. Oh, shit. His father was an actor and an alcoholic, abusive, an asshole, um, mom, um, unfailing. And the three siblings, they had a little, uh, like a Vodville show with the little kids, um, called the three little hillbillies. Put them to work. Right? So they, he's, and he described his childhood as feeling like he was, uh, like a, like a monkey with a monkey grinder, like he was just out there begging for change around town and Nettley, New Jersey, which is horrifying. Yeah. Sorry. I got all of the things I'm telling you right now from a show that I couldn't love the title of more rich and acquitted. So spoiler alert. Oh, no, we know. But I mean, yeah, but we knew because this was a famous case anyway, but I didn't that show in any of the means. I mean, it's so funny because it's when I, when I looked this up on YouTube, there's like a whole, there's a whole realm of rich and acquitted and it, and they're real, because

1:10:59I, when I first started listening to it, I was like, God, they're being real judgy about like money and they keep talking about his money. And then it's basically talking about how when you have money, the entire justice system works totally differently for you and the whole approach and strategy to the justice system. So system. I'm not drunk. So the three little hillbillies have, you know, minor success in not leaner jersey in the surrounding area. So then, but it's, it's the mid 30s. So because it's after the depression, the movie business is exploding. Everyone's like, I've got, I do have 25 extra cents. I want to spend it on entertainment. I want things to be fun. I want to go and like watch the Ziggsville follies or whatever. I think big in a, in a movie theater and have a good time. So his father moves the whole family out to Hollywood because he thinks he's going to be the movie star.

1:12:00Badness. They're so poor. They sleep in the car. You know, it's really hard. But the father gets a job in a hardware store and his, Mickey was his name at the time. Mickey Gubitosi was his original name. Robert Blake's name. His Robert Blake's real name. He was born as Mickey Gubitosi. Mickey Gubitosi. He's five years old when he gets the job on the R gang series. Wow. And he starts as an extra and they showed clips on the show and he's the cutest. You see him? He's got this little twinkle in his eye, but he's also like, he's like a little tough guy. And it's so cute. And then with, I mean, R gang, if you go back, you ever have a, a free day and you just want to have some dumb fun? The R gang series was the cutest, sweetest thing and all those little kids were really talented. Now there is extreme fucking racism because it was the thirties. But the cool thing was, or I won't say cool, but the thing that made it slightly different

1:13:01was that Buckwheat was one of their friends and hung around. Right. But, you know, there's also, as anything from, from before in my life, 1995, it's, you know, a different time anyhow. So he basically, he's the one that makes it big. And he from, from our gang, when that's over, he kind of like, it basically emancipates himself, runs away from home. He joins the army. He ends up marrying a woman named Sandra Kerr. He has two kids with her, starts his family. It looks like he's about to fade into obscurity as like a character actor that like was a child actor, you know? Yeah. And it was really cool. They had interviews with like other little kids that had been on that series. They grew up to also be actors. So you could recognize them as they were talking and they were talking about how Robert Blake as a child actor was really good. He was a really good actor. He was a really serious child. Like he was there to like kill it. Yeah.

1:14:01Which is very, seriously. Exactly. Not just because his parents wanted him to. Right. Not just because he would get the shit beaten out of him when he went home. Sure. It's just that thing where you know like when those, when little kids have it, that kind of way. Why am I looking at that kid? There's six kids and that's the one that's caught my eye. He was that. So right as he begins to fade into obscurity, he gets that part in in cold blood. Whoa. And if you haven't seen the movie that Robert Blake stars, Robert Blake stars as, you know, one of the two killers in in cold blood and he's so good in it's really, I only saw a clip of it. I've never seen the entire movie starts finished. Yeah. But it's really amazing. I think I watched it, but didn't realize it was him and you don't watch it again. Yeah, because it's old. It's like a thing. It's gonna am see. Yeah. Um, but it's really good. Also, and then it started making me think of how much I loved the version with Toby, um, that British actor. I'm a lawyer. Keith. Someone like that.

1:15:04Uh, uh, that short British actor that's in, he was in tongue, he's been in tons of stuff. He's so good. And he plays, um, Tremacopoti. Oh. Remember that one and they go out to start interviewing the families. It shows how Tremacopoti wrote that book. Yeah, but that was a good movie. That was a, what's his face? Philip Smyr Hoffman did one of a version. And then there was a, so there was one with Philip Smyr Hoffman. Um, and there was another one with Sandra Bullock and Toby. Look, why are no British Toby, British Toby. Steven's gonna find it. Steven. Once he's done grooming his mustache. Steven, Toby Keith. Oh, Toby Jones. Toby Jones. No. No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, but he's such a good actor. He's in everything. Okay. Um, and that, oh, infamous is the name of the biopic. Okay. And then there's also the, the, the, the Phillips Smyr Hoffman one, which is give it a

1:16:05look. It's good. I liked it. I just love that story that, you know, somebody like Tremacopoti was just such a insane one of a kind beyond belief. That was a sidebar to beat all sidebars because basically he's in cold blood. He comes back and that, that kind of brings his relevance back. And then he gets the lead on the cop show, Beretta. Yeah. Do you remember that show? I was too young. You were definitely too young because I was like, it was just in my consciousness. That was like such a mid 70s show. Yeah. But Beretta was the cop that had the parrot. And so if you remember, he was, he was like the Italian looking cop with a white parrot on his shoulder. And, and he kind of had that columbowy thing where he was like, yeah, man, you know, you know, and every man. I guess this was what that impression just went. But if you, but you can look up old episodes of Beretta and if only for the opening theme

1:17:06song, it was the full version is recorded and by Sammy Davis Jr. Holy shit. And it's called Keep Your Eye on the Sparrow. And it's like, give your eye on the sparrow. You have to look, you have to look it up. It's happening. So like, it's so like disco 70s. He didn't look at the like hardcore fucking like weird solo boggos at the beginning of like, here we go. The streets. Keep Bill. Yes. Yes. Yes. You have it. Holy shit. Maybe you know it. It has this show had everything. And he ended up winning an Emmy for that for that role. I think that show went on for four years, whatever. So he basically then becomes a hit and he, he does, he invests his money wisely and he builds his wealth. And he also became a fixture on the tonight show. And so once Barreda was over, he was still like a big presence in Hollywood. And the in the winter of two, the year 2000, he, he goes to a jazz club one night and he

1:18:12meets a woman named Bonnie Lee, Bake Lee. And they hit it off immediately. So they, and she didn't know he was a celebrity. She actually had to call her sister and say, have you ever heard of this name because he's saying he's famous, but that was in a quid it, rich and acquitted. But they really did hit it off. Then at the end of the night, no judgments. They go out to his van and do it. No. Like the alley behind the jazz club. That's the first night they met is, is they did that. So then there is shit that is where their fate is sealed. That's where in the alley in the alley behind a jazz club in the picture that they showed and rich and acquitted. It was this purple van on these big old like jacked up wheels. Oh my God. It looks, it's like half Scooby Doo, half like Monster Truck Rally. You're like, where did you get this fucking car? Oh my God.

1:19:12If you invested your money, so God damn wise. All right. So it's 2000, too. This car is from 2000. Not from the fucking point. That's, this is not the 70s we're talking about. It's not Beretta anymore. No. But he was truly keeping his eye on the sparrow and keeping it real. Keeping it real in the alley. That's right. So now let's switch over to this woman, this romance that he's having with Bonnie Lee Bacley. So she was born in 1956 in Morristown, New Jersey. She was also poor growing up. They're both from New Jersey. About 20 years apart or so. This is, she has a fascinating history. And this woman, if you want to talk about somebody that got fucking maligned after her own death, Bonnie Lee Bacley, we all heard every single thing this woman ever did, she was not there to defend herself or even, even just be a presence. Now, she did a bunch of fucked up shit.

1:20:12And that ended up getting proven in court before she met Robert Blake. But as the cop said in Rich and Equated, it doesn't mean she deserved to get murdered. And it doesn't mean, you know, it doesn't mean she's any less of a victim. I just remember when this case started, how often they talked like on the radio and you know, like Powered Stern style talk shit on this woman. And apparently it was the lawyer's plan from the beginning. No. Yes, they were ready once the like indictment came or we, you know, the charges were filed. The lawyer had it already of like, well, here's the victim. Wow. And here's her pass. It's pretty intense. So now going back to where she came from, she was married for the first time and divorced when she was 15. Oh, honey. And she dropped out of high school after she had a marriage and a divorce.

1:21:13Sweetie. So what I estimate to be soft more year. Yeah. Then she was like, you know what, I'm past high school now, which is like when am I going to go back to high school? When am I going to go to the spring formal? Right. I don't think so. I'm a divorcee. I'm above you all. Oh, my God. So she moves to New York City. She wants to be a model. She's really beautiful. Great features. She's kind of a like bottled blonde, but you know, she's like got this big open face. She wants to be a model. She wants to be an actress. And she goes right for those nudes. She's like, she just is like, I'm ready to do it. I want to do it. And let's do this thing. She, nothing pans out, which sometimes happens when you take nants. People are just like, yep, put them in the pile with the other nants. Sure. She ends up marrying her second husband was her first cousin. No, she has. Yeah, she did it. And she had three kids with him. No, don't do that either. Yeah, yeah.

1:22:13Oh, no, they did that. Like what around years this? This is the, sorry, 70s. This is like the early 70s. Oh, and they're having cousin kids. Cousin kids and kind of like a, I want to be famous, but maybe I'll just do this instead. That's all fine, but don't marry your cousin. Right. Yeah, whatever the fuck you want. Marry your cousin. Um, here's what's kind of cool. So she has all these pictures that she took trying to get break into show business essentially. She's visionary. She starts a mail order nude photo mailing like service. She puts personal ads in the back of like smut magazines that's like, hey, here's me. Do you want me to send you my nude photos right to me here and send me this amount of money? So smart. She starts fucking making bank on this business. Good for her. So they're like, I love Nudes. I was just reading this whole magazine of Nudes. I'd love more Nudes from your home. Right. And she's like, I've got this. So she eventually makes so much money off of this business.

1:23:18She can buy several homes in the Memphis area. Oh, my God. Yeah. So she's, she's supporting that family. She's like getting it done. We're in the wrong business. I mean, you have to be willing to and some of the pictures because there's exercise sometimes. So, pass. Get on all fours with a cowboy hat on and nothing else. Oh, no, I don't want to do that. There was a lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah, like campy shirts. It seemed very, it was like seven days porn had an innocence about it. Where it was kind of like, look at me with no shirt on. That's how a lot of those pictures start. Yeah. I've seen Debbie does that list. Have you? Yeah. Is it good? No. It's fun. Good storyline though. The best. Powerful. Debbie does that. Oh, no. The whole night time soap opera. Uh-huh. Okay. So, now this is fascinating. And it kind of shows you the mindset. But also like, you know, she's from Tennessee.

1:24:19She's living in Tennessee at this point, right in the Memphis area. Memphis, Tennessee. Just double checking with myself. And she's trying, she still has that thing of like celebrity. She's always been obsessed with celebrity ever since she was a little kid. She wanted it. She wanted to be around it. She wanted to be near it. So she gets this idea in her head. I'm going to hook up with Jerry Lee Lewis. What? Yes. Cousins. He loves cousins. She loves cousins. In 1989. So she's 33 years old. She's been married four times. Totally. She's been arrested for drugs. Okay. Which it's the seventies that's going to happen. Or, well, now it's the late eighties. Okay. Still a good one. But the seventies have existed. So I'm getting our pass, I guess. And that's when he's even worse. The eighties were a bit nuts. But so it's 1989 is when she gets this Jerry Lee Lewis plan. Okay. And she actually ends up hanging out and like, sideling up. And she's a gorgeous woman. So like, she eventually meets him. She gets to hang out with him a little bit. I guess she ends up hooking up with him.

1:25:21She gets pregnant and tells him it's her baby. And he's like, it's his baby. It's his baby. She's like, look, this is my baby. No, it's her baby. And there's no way you can prove her wrong. And Jerry Lee Lewis, it sounds great. Shit, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I keep hitting her like, no, that's okay. So basically Jerry Lee Lewis is like, why don't you go ahead and take a paternity of your test for that baby? They have those in 89? Yeah. They were very popular back then. And of course, he was not the father on the hand. So that, she basically takes her fourth husband and is like, we're moving to California. Like she just gets out. And I should actually have you look this up. Because this is the best. Right. Bonnie Lee Bakeley. She takes all that money from her home needs business and buys herself a billboard on sunset, sunset strip. Like Angelina's style. Angelina's style, except for it's just on the right side. It's her headshot, her 80s headshot. Or she's just like, and then it just says Lee Bonnie.

1:26:22That was her stage name. Lee Bonnie with a phone number. Can I see this? I need to see this to me. It's really, it's so 80s to me. It's just very like, look, here's an actress on a billboard. It's so Angelina, if you're not from LA. But you've seen her, like if they're, if they're going to do the beginning of a Hollywood movie, they will cut to an Angelina billboard. And that's that lady with the insane brush and plants. She's got the 80s. She looks like the rocker chick who would hang out at like the whiskey. Yes. And the 80s who would like hook up with metal dudes. Metal dudes. She's got a big kind of baby face, tons of blonde hair. I, there was a staple of my childhood when we come to LA to my grandma's house. Angelina had a billboard there. And I was just like, I want to be like her when I go. Right. And I am. Look at you. Look at you. And you saw yourself in that British tabloid. You've made it. So, well, also she was being bankrolled by some businessman. So it was just kind of like, do you like this person?

1:27:24Put them in your movie or TV show. And that's kind of the way some people were trying to get famous. Yeah. Because nobody, because they hadn't figured out they can do stand-up comedy yet. I'm going to just see if I can find this for you. Okay. There it is. That was on sunset. Oh, wow. Yeah, it looks, it looks like a real estate photo. Yes. It's very reasonable. Yeah. And it is very, very beautiful. Yeah, right. She's just basically like, if you drive by this and you want to put me in your thing, it's totally feel free. Okay. Plus, I have home notes. She phones. Yes. She phones for days. She, you know, she looks like somewhere between Merrill Streep and Bonnie Rape. Yeah. She has that look. Yeah. So, like, severe angles, but pretty. Yeah. Okay. And a nice tall forehead. Maybe a little Sigourney Weaver going on. There's a little weaver in there. She starts writing. So this was around the time where Christian Brando ended up going to jail for involuntary

1:28:29manslaughter. Right. Marlon Brando's son. Yeah. Right. Yeah. He's going off the fucking rails. Yeah. That's a whole other. I didn't even want to get into it because I'm like, we should save that one. Yeah. Because that's a whole insane story. Totally. He's Hollywood murderers. But so he's in jail. So she's one of those people. She starts writing him letters in jail, sending him home, home spun nudes. Absolutely. He's like, this is great. Thank you so much. And when he gets out of jail, they start having a relationship. Oh, shit. Yeah. So that's basically kind of this, this on and off thing. They, a lot of people in the specials say like they're seeing each other. Whatever. Like, uh-huh. We get it. We know what that means. In a van in the alley behind the Jaws Club. But then when she's seeing Christian Brando in real life, that's when she meets Robert Blake. That's where that story overlaps. Okay. So Bonnie kept flying back to Arkansas to pick up her mail because apparently when she

1:29:33lived in, uh, she was, she ended up getting arrested there because she had so many fake IDs and so many fake social security cards for all the different people that she pretended to be when she had that home needs business. She never gave anybody her real name. Yeah. So she, she had a ton of fake ID, like fraudulent ID basically. She had gone home to pick up her mail, um, because she was, uh, had been arrested. Basically, she got pulled over a cop said, let me see your ID. She pulls out one, 15 other ones fall out. The cops like, what the fuck? She gets arrested for fraud or whatever. Okay. So now she's on probation in, in Arkansas. She's so, she has to have an address there. Yes. So she keeps, she like stays in LA for a little while, goes, checks her billboard to see if there's any takers. And then she goes back, she has to go back to Arkansas. She's, she's been doing that on and off. Okay. But once she hooks up with Robert Blake, so it's April of 1989 now, she finds out she's

1:30:35pregnant. Uh-uh. Yeah. So she tells both Christian Brando and Robert Blake that they're the father. And, uh, she's kind of doing this thing of like, I'm not sure which one I want to marry. And I'm still trying to pick because Robert Blake had a ton of money and he was really stable. Uh-uh. And he was actually interested in her and like, into her. Uh-uh. Christian Brando was young and good looking and, you know, kind of like the, you know, she was just trying to decide like who she was going to start a life with. Uh-uh. So she picks Robert Blake, but then when she tells him, so I'm pregnant. Well, but he's just like you lied to me and he, he turns on her. Robert Blake does? Yeah. He's super mean. They have, so it also turns out, um, later on when this, when this trial starts, she recorded almost every single phone call she ever had. Shut up. So they, like when, when this case started, um, I think we remember this. Yeah. They had, they have phone calls of theirs.

1:31:36They have phone calls of other people she had. Like, she just recorded all phone calls. Oh, weird. So they could go through all of them. And that's when they start to find out her very checkered pass. Okay. Like the actual proof of it. Um, but basically she, she thinks she's going to do this kind of like, well, I'm pregnant. So let's hook up and I'm not, I finally made my decision of my two boyfriend's in my Hollywood life. And Robert Blake is like no fucking way. And he's so mean and like demanding she get an abortion telling her he's going to make her get an abortion like all this stuff that she actually ends up writing a letter to her lawyer saying, if anything happens to me, Robert Blake is responsible for my death. Oh my God. So she ends up going back to, um, Arkansas or Memphis. I think it was Memphis and she has the baby. It's this beautiful little girl. I mean, we've all seen, when the case came up, you saw a million pictures of her. Her name's Rose and she is so cute.

1:32:36She looks like she's wearing like a little black hat of hair and she's got like bright red lips. And the second that Robert Blake saw the picture of her, he called Bonnie Blake, Bakley and said, get a paternity test because that's my baby. And they did and it proved that it was his baby. So he knew he knew it looks exactly like him. Okay. And especially when you see those like our game clips or whatever. She's looks just like him and she's really cute. So he's basically says to Bonnie, move back to LA, make a life with me. Like I want to, I like, I love that baby. That's my baby. Let's make this work. And so she gets on a plane, even though she knows she's breaking her parole or violating her parole, she gets back on a plane to LA to make this happen. And she's in LA. Robert Blake is like, give the baby to the nanny for the day out. Let's go out to lunch and when they're out to lunch, two cops walk up and go, you're in

1:33:37violation of your parole in Arkansas, you're under arrest. Stop it and take her away. Robert Blake's like, don't worry about it. I'll take care of the baby. We've got it covered. Those two cops bring her, they don't arrest her. They bring her to the airport and put her on a plane. No. Back to Arkansas. A tractor? Yeah, they tractor. So it turned out those two guys weren't cops. They were two friends of Robert Blake's. No. And they base, and this the entire time it was his plan to get custody of that little girl. Oh my God. So basically he's got the baby. His grown daughter is like keeping the baby at her house and he just basically sent her back and was like, she's trying to get rid of her. So she realizes the whole thing was a scam. She's furious. She threatens to file kidnapping charges against him. Yeah. So they start to work on a deal because she's like, I will, I will, like throw the book at you. Yeah. And the deal is she agrees to drop the charges if he'll marry her.

1:34:41Shut up. Uh huh. So they. That's the most romantic thing I've ever heard of my life. This is, remember the story you told about the guy writing the girl's name on the thing. He's just better sending it to a planet. Can you imagine a man? So how'd you guys meet? What if he like, so how'd you convince me? Well, while I tricked him, I threatened him with kidnapping charges. He retaliated of course. And then, and I made him sign a piece of paper that said, but in the end, he meant to be he didn't love me. And I'm never alone with him because I'm scared of him. What the fuck? So crazy. So in this prenup, they're basically it was like, she was allowed to see the baby once a month and to see Robert Blake once a month. That's the agreement. It was the exchange. He will marry you if you sign this prenup. But when she get out of it, then if she doesn't even get to be with her baby, she doesn't care about her baby. Well, she does, but she, there's nothing she can do because she was, she's not got a parole. Okay. And they've already kind of got that. So it's the kind of the only, the only way she can see the baby still be in a life and

1:35:44still get the thing she ultimately has always wanted, which is to be married to a celebrity. Oh, man. That feels, I'm going to move out of LA right now. It's, this town is bad feelings wall to wall. The lore. Good night. I mean, anyone who comes here has bad intentions or is going to have a bad time, right? Or better get bad intentions or you're going to get screwed. Screw before you get screwed. That's for sure. Yeah. Yeah, just real good feeling place. It's, it's the reason that people come here, try to do something and then they're like, Oh, no, you know what? I'm now an evangelical question. Yeah. Because I've, I've seen or a scientist or a scientist or I'm going to be so vegan that I try to kill you. Like, it's people just have to, they have to reassess their entire life. They like a need of thing to focus on, otherwise, they'll focus on the horrible, how they're nothing or they'll buy themselves a billboard. Like it's this kind of town where you feel like you're so nothing for so long that you're

1:36:45like, I'm just going to buy a billboard. It's the only way I can break through. Yeah. It's just, it's a nightmare. So anyway, I like it here though. I mean, no, I love it. It's pretty happy. Okay. It's really gorgeous. We're having a great time. Guys, we get to do a show with you are a few and two days. Oh my God. That's amazing. She signs this prenup that basically gives her almost nothing. They marry in November of 2000. I wish I could have been at that fucking ceremony. I bet there was Rose Petals and love galore everywhere. Just like scattered blood. Yeah. I just used the word galore and I think I might never stop using the word galore. It's so fun to say. It's of that time. It feels like this era. Yes. And I mean, like, you know, it's 2000, but like this fucking thing. Yeah. Six months later, when her probation ends in Arkansas, she officially moves to LA. She moves into the guest house on his property, not into his house, her husband's house.

1:37:47She moves into the guest house and they never share the same house. They only ever set it up like that. So it's not a real. Yeah. I don't get it. It's very strange. So then this all leads up. Now we are up to May 4th of 2001. To this point. When Robert Blake asks Bonnie if she would like to go out to dinner. Do they ever go like on dates or anything like that? Do we know? It doesn't sound like it. Yeah. No. It sounds like a real bummer, man. It sounds like the most toxic relationship and the most codependent bad intentions from every direction. Also, it's that thing of like, if you are, if you get together with a guy and then the only way you can see staying in his life is tricking him into thinking he's fathered your child. I'd go back to square, go back to that jazz bar and pick somebody else or start, you know, go back, you went further, start it, go to therapy. Start there. Ask some questions. So then when you get to the jazz bar, you pick a good kind person.

1:38:50Yeah. Maybe drop some of that, whatever happened to you in junior high, drop some of that. My first marriage is when I was 15. See if you can start it now. Yeah. None of this is helping anybody. Or constructive in any way. So they go to dinner. He says, I want to take you to Vitello's. She's like hell, yes. Yeah, I love fucking dusty, great, fake grapes. I love red sauce. I love melted mozzarella on, you know, pottery box, canty, favorite. What's the wine, the one that's so funny? Shabli. Oh, venrose. That's my grandma used to order. Oh my god. I love a venrose. She had a weird New York accent because she was from San Francisco. Okay, so they go to dinner. I just had a recovery, a recovered memory. There used to be a standup show at Vitello's. No.

1:39:51Yeah, this was like late 90s. Those are kind of things. I would be like, sure, I'll do that show and I would show up. And I'd be like, I'm not doing this. This is humiliating. I'm not going to drink in the corner. You can have the opera guy take my sack. No. So Robert Blake tells Bonnie that he's brought his nine millimeter pistol with him to dinner because of all the unscrupulous business that she's involved in and for her safety. And she's like, sounds great. I'll have the breadsticks and she ordered the breadsticks. It's just breadsticks. Sounds fucking great. You know when you're trying to be lady like on a date. Yeah, you're on the diet. I'll just get seven breadsticks and I just have the breadsticks. I'm on the picture of I see. God, I love Vitello's. So they leave the restaurant at 924 and between 924 and 940, Bonnie, Lee, Bay, Clay is shot in Robert Blake's car in the parking lot of Vitello's.

1:40:57He, so they get into the car and then he goes, sorry, I left my gun in the restaurant. I'll be right back and goes back into the restaurant to get his gun that he says he left in the booth. Right. There are no witnesses from the restaurant that say he went back into the restaurant. No one saw him go in and get his gun. But while he, he claims in his alibi is that when he, while she was getting shot outside, he was inside getting his gun. But nobody saw him. No one saw him. It's the perfect alibi because it's like, well, I was inside with my gun. Just say you've been inside to pee. Like why did he have to introduce the gun part? I guess to cover the fact that that's where his gun was, like make it real clear that Oh, he didn't even have his gun on him. Yeah, the gun wasn't anywhere, but in the restaurant. But then why didn't he actually do that and, and wave it everyone with the gun? Hi guys. So they all said they saw him waving with the gun. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. Listen, I'm a master if I can criminal criminal criminal. I mean, would that have helped? Be like, hey guys, you know, thanks again.

1:41:58Thanks. Bye. Oh, she's my wife. Just got shot. This one's for the opera singer, two into the ceiling. I'm sorry, I'm making light of this. No, no, no, I mean, what we're making light of is the plan. The whole, we're making light of his life and how fucking stupid it is. And also how Hollywood makes you think you can do things you shouldn't and can't do. But if fucking money and acquittal, the TV show, which acquitted, has shown us anything, it's true. It is true. It's true. It's why people want it so badly is because it gets you to a place. I was right, rich and acquitted. It gets you to a place where you are untouchable and that's what everybody wants. That's real power. So I want to be touchable. Oh, do you? I don't want to be untouchable. I think you're silky soft and totally touchable. Thank you. Thank you, Sa. Thank you. So at 940, Robert Blake rings the doorbell of a neighbor of Vitello's. Why?

1:42:59Because he went there to call 911 to the neighbors screaming, going fucking berserk. And the neighbor is, it's a guy named Sean Stannick. It's his house. He goes there to his house to call 911 when he leaves and the cops go to, like, go to the crime scene. He waits a little while. Then he calls police again and he asked them to come and look through his house because he thinks Robert Blake might have hid something there while he was there. He says his behavior was so strange and over the top and bizarre and he was screaming and being super crazy about my life, my life, my whatever. That he was like, I don't, I just want you guys to come and look. I feel like he did something and I didn't catch it, which I think is amazing and such a cool move where it's like, could I? I just don't invite you guys back real quick. He didn't even try to look for it himself. He was just like, I'm fucking off and I am not putting my fingerprints on it. No. Get the authorities in here. Absolutely. A-SAP.

1:43:59Well, down Sean Stannick. So, and other neighbors in the neighborhood were like, yeah, he was just running around screaming and like, and like, just so clearly presented like, I am freaking out. But a little Vod Villian and over the top. Sure. Play it to the back. What do you guys think? Yeah, exactly. Play it to the back row. So, police are like, well, this is strange because again, no witnesses actually saw him go into Vitello's the second time. And he also, Bonnie had a cell phone and was always on her cell phone. She was like, as we know, for her recorded messages obsession. She was a big phone person, always had her phone on her. He could have taken her phone on called 911 right there at the car and he didn't do it. Okay. He also, he was taken in for questioning after like, they all left the scene. So, Bonnie was shot twice in the car. She was in the car. She was sitting in the car in the passenger seat, shot through the window, blood all in

1:45:01the car. She was taken, the ambulance came and she was taken in the hospital, but she died at the hospital. Robert Blake was taken in for questioning by the detectives, never asked how she was. So, they were like, yeah, the couple of these things aren't adding up in a big way. They do the gun residue on his hands test, inclinclusive. They end up, which is super brilliant idea and like, you know, for 2000s, pretty advanced. There was a dumpster that the car is parked right next to. And instead of going through the dumpster there, they just take the entire dumpster back to like the forensics lab or whatever and go through every piece of garbage piece by piece to find, yeah, to find anything. And they end up finding this, it's a nine millimeter, it's a very rare World War II German officer's gun that's a P 38 nine millimeter pistol. No idea.

1:46:02But when they find it, it's covered in motor oil. So they can't get any fingerprints off of it or even do any blistics on it. It's just completely ruined. They think intentionally. Yeah. I wonder if that was a fucking plot line in an episode of Baretta. They should have fucking looked out at man. That's a fucking genius idea. Can it is double jeopardy still a thing? Bring him back. Bring him on back. That is such a good idea. I wonder if anybody looked up all the episodes of Baretta and just been like this person did this. This person, this was the plan. Sure. Okay. Okay. He, he, he lowers up immediately, of course. And the next day is when the lawyer starts releasing the phone call tapes of Bonnie starts talk, trashing her like he had a whole basically kind of like a media thing ready to do with it. Well, it's, it's what it is is like they were trying to build the case that that she had enemies all across the nation that she had, she had conned men all over the place.

1:47:07And there were lots of people that were her enemy not just Robert Blake. So as bad and contentious and horrible and loveless and nightmarish as this marriage was that she had just entered into, she still, he wasn't, perhaps wasn't the only suspect that she didn't look at. Right, right, right. Okay. She, and they find out that they start like when they start listening to these phone calls, they start finding these old men all around the country that they, they thought she was, his, that they thought she was their wife. No. They, um, they thought they were married. They, she was married to lots of people. She got married a lot. And she would take out life insurance policies on them. And she also had them change their will to include her in. Stop it. Yeah, that happened. That was a couple of them. And also this was in rich and acquitted, but this also was all the information that the lawyers just like anybody to listen to it.

1:48:10They'll tell that story. One person theorized that she had been married over 25 times. Holy shit. But the provable amount she was married nine times for sure. Oh my God. Yeah. Um, okay. So, uh, so at some point like in the, in this process, Robert Blake fires that of initial lawyer and he hires Thomas Mezzaro. You've seen him on tons of true crime things. He has strange like, uh, little Dutch boy hair, uh, but gray. Okay. It makes very little sense. And he's the guy that defended Mike Tyson and Michael Jackson. So you've seen him on the news. Okay. Okay. I'll show you. Yeah. Um, and, and so it, he hires that guy. Then he hires media consultants, um, to start the story spin and they get him on Barbara Walters. So from jail in his orange jumpsuit with his hair now turned white. He isn't dying his hair black anymore like he had up until that time that, that was like

1:49:11a big thing. And they say he did it for sympathy or whatever, but from jail, she's like, did you kill your wife? And he's like, no, of course I didn't. He's like as if he's irritated with Barbara over, overdoing it a little for even out. If there's a, yeah, he's, there's a touch of Lily gilding. Sure. I tell if that's just how he is because he's a child actor. He's never had a normal life. Yeah. Like you just don't know. Um, he ends up, eventually he ends up going free on a million dollars bail. A million dollars. Rich. Rich. Aquated. Rich and bailed. So. Is that their theme song? Rich, rich, rich, rich and a quinon. Okay. So then the trial starts on December 20th, 2004 at Good old fucking Ventura. Cord. I mean, sorry, Van Ice Courthouse. Fuck yeah. That's how it all ties back in. Love it. Um, now now that I'm thinking, I know the pre trial was the Van Ice Courthouse.

1:50:13I don't know if the actual trial. Let's go in. So there's two different stunt men who come testify that Robert Blake solicit. They did them to kill his wife months before the actual murder. One of them they can prove he talked to on the phone the morning of the murder. Robert. But in cross examination, he gets this mesero ends up, um, uh, resigning from the case. Whatever that's called, leaving it. Quitting. Quitting, I guess. Quitting is the word I was looking for. Um, you're welcome. He leaves. He gets a Blake gets a third lawyer and always a bad sign when you have to keep fucking getting a look at Ted Bundy, for example, it's not good. No, you're not an agreeable individual. They hate you. Yeah, they hate you. They can't even like their lawyers and they can't even fucking deal with it. They can't deal. I mean, don't have to be around you that much. And they're just like what the fuck is wrong with you? Just do what I tell you and everything will be fine. No, no, no, no.

1:51:14I'm a rock and roll actor. I'm smart. Yeah. Um, okay. The new lawyer is basically just like, well, I'm just going to eviscerate any of these witnesses who even, because they're so little evidence that they have to like, so the two stuntmen that come and say, oh, yeah, he asked us to kill his wife. One of them, they pull up a report that he had recently been hospitalized for cocaine psychosis. Oh, no. What's that? It's just like you do so much cocaine. You fucking lose your mind. How much cocaine? I mean, I'd say nights worth maybe two nights worth. All right. Interesting. It's like you're just, you started and you don't stop. Oh my god. And then you just fucking go berserk. So that comes out on one guy. So then he just like his all of his credibility is done. And they basically do the same thing to the second guy. They're just like, oh, you're both, you're both these drug addicts. You're both these, you know, whoever you'd say anything for money, you'd say anything. Sure. Um, so basically once they get rid of those two people, there's no way they can do it.

1:52:16No real evidence that they, that's, that's usable on court. So the jury deliberates for 12 days on March 16th. 12 days. 2005. Robert Blake has found not guilty of murder and not guilty of one of the two counts of solicitation of murder. Straight up, not guilty, not even like, not guilty. Yeah. Sorry, go on. Not guilty. No, that's fine. Um, the, the other count of solicitation of the, of the guy, the cocaine psychosis guy, um, that was dropped when it was revealed that the jury was deadlocked 11 to one in favor of a quiddle. So they were going to go for it anyway. Yeah. And they're just basically like, forget that one. And he's just going free because that went off the way forward. Yeah. They're just like, oh, you're rich. You're acquitted. The Los Angeles, this is from Wikipedia. Well, Los Angeles, Los Angeles district attorney Stephen Cooley called Blake quote, imisurable human being. And the jurors are quote, incredibly stupid to fall for the defense's claims.

1:53:18There's one woman in this special rich and acquitted where she goes, of course, I believed it. Mr. Blake would left his gun inside a restaurant. Haven't we all left things inside restaurants at one time or another? It's just like lady. It's a fucking gun. Oh my. It's not your lipstick. Um, it's my air fucking retainer that you put in the cloth napkin. Cost your parents $300. They were so pissed in the movie's cafe in Irvine. So basically the public consensus was that he hired someone to kill his wife. And it's just unprovable. Right. But a lot of there were lots of character witnesses that were like, no, he's the best. And he would never do that. Um, and of course, there was no evidence. So, okay, go on. On the night of his acquittal, several fans celebrated at Fatelos. Um, and Karen Kilgaraf was one of them. And I was up there singing opera just like this on November 18th, 2002.

1:54:20It's not opera. It's not. What? Yes it is. That was Verity. Um, everything straight out your nose in opera. This is the Barbara Seville. But that you're thinking about opera. It's opera. You don't have to sing opera. That's right. This is a musical about singing opera. There's no actual opera in it. I'm out here and I'm wearing a bucket hat. More nasal, lower. Play. A fucking hat. Um, guys, on November 18th, 2005, Robert Blake was found liable in a California civil court for her wrongful death. Civil court will always fucking come at you. They'll come back and they'll be like, hey, we see things. A little bit different. We forgot to talk about the fucking O.J. Simpson. No, sorry about next time. Go on. OK. Um, so, sorry. Based, no, no, that's fine. So since that time he had to file for bankruptcy. He's in $3 million in debt unpaid legal fees as well as state and federal taxes.

1:55:23He said that he might return to acting because he has such financial problems now. Actues like we're good, bro. Yeah, we're like, we're like, we got, we got it covered, Beretta. We're going to hire the, the parrot instead. Um, in 2010, state of California filed a tax lien against Blake for a million and a hundred thousand dollars, that's one million, one hundred and ten thousand dollars in unpaid back taxes. Ouch. It hurts. Uh, now this is a very famous interview. He was on, he went on July 16th, 2012. He went on Pierce Morgan and he's wearing a sleeveless cowboy shirt and a cowboy hat. No, no, don't, no. And he is, yeah, it's so crazy. You have to look it up on YouTube. It's an experience to have. And he just starts attacking Pierce Morgan for asking him any questions at all. And Pierce Morgan's like, yeah, but this is what we came here for is like the interview. And he snaps and it's super fucking crazy.

1:56:24I want to watch it. You have to watch it. It's, it's a, it's pretty legendary. He told the people that were writing his autobiography that he hoped for one last great film role. But the, but um, he was in Lost Highway. That's right. David Lynch movie in 1997. And that to date is his last acting role. Wow. Um, in a March 2016, this is the, this is one of the saddest endings, not saddest, but like one of the most like, oh, endings of any of the murders that I've done. Uh-huh. And in 2016, March 2016, he told a reporter that he had a private nurse and that he was suffering suffering from incontinence. And that my friend is the, is this sad ending, um, of the murder of Bonnie Lee Bakeley. Oh my God. And the rich acquitted experience of actor Robert Blake.

1:57:25That's right. Now he's 85. He's still alive. Holy shit. He's still alive. I think he remarried for a third time. Um, so he married him again. Of course, it's the fucking, it's a town full of people who want their own billboard. So how can he get to be 85, but fucking, uh, Stephen Hawking is what was he like 73? So look, such bullshit. I wish I could explain God's work. I wish it could too. It's a mystery. This is just how he does it. But next time we have to talk about the OJ, if I did it, that they finally, oh, thank you. That was amazing. Oh, no, so you're welcome. That was so, I don't want to call it fun, but it was a wild ride. You know, who has always reminded me of is the dude, the dad from the staircase. Mm. Like just creepy in that way. Yes. Whatever. There's definitely an energy about him that you're, but you can't tell. Others are so creepy.

1:58:26They're so creepy that it's like, it's the, yeah, you know, it's like who is this really who or is there another real you? Are you acting or yeah, do you never know how to not be acting? Right. And do you just think feelings are weird mass to put on so you can manipulate people? Right. Like instead of actually having a real time experience, it's like here's how feelings look like and sound like. Oh, Italy, I love this place. My gun. No, I'm putting down everybody pizza for one type of shit. They got a ringtone immediately. For that, I know fucking ringtone. But you're talking about, so there was the OJ Simpson, it like an if I did it special. Right. It got, it got filmed in like 2006 and there was like a fucking public outcry and I was like, don't put it out. But so they finally did you watch a watch and we'll talk about it next week. Okay, great. It's fucked up. He did it. Yeah, and he admits to it and this fucking show.

1:59:27Whoa. It's fucked up. Okay. So two women who were one of us, they were murdering us, they were lovely women and they were murdered this week. Yeah, this is one of the most awful things. We've been contacted and had a bunch of people tell us about this. But Steven, just so you guys know, and I think sometimes people aren't aware of this, like Steven is so good about, he's on those message boards with you guys and he knows what everyone's doing. He reads all those emails. So like he lets us know, especially when something this horrible happens. And so we found out that it was on Tuesday. One was Monday, one was Tuesday. We found out this morning. Yeah. But that two different murderinas in Seattle were murdered. Separately from it. So so Lita burns in Samantha Field. We're both murdered. If you go to the my favorite murder Facebook page, there's more information.

2:00:29We actually don't know a lot of information ourselves, but we just wanted to acknowledge them and I were so heartbroken over it. And not just because, you know, they're listening to the podcast obviously, but because it's just really heartbreaking and we feel like they're friends of ours and it just feels really, it feels like we're this club and we've lost two members and it feels horrible. And in such a terrible way, like just we're thinking about you guys because they were your friends and you know, this is your guys community that you're building and so you're all connected. And the idea that something like that would happen to you and your community is just heartbreaking. So we're thinking about you and we're so sorry and we're so sorry to the families. And you know, hopefully they'll be quick like for the for the one that that is right now, they don't know as much information and hopefully that that case will be solved quickly. The other one is just an incredible tragedy. Yeah.

2:01:30I mean, they both are, but yeah, there's just so much loss and we're so sorry. Yeah. Okay, we're back here in any updates. Just a couple. Of course, Quentin Tarantino's novelization of the film once upon a time in Hollywood, that movie was dedicated to Robert Blake. Huh. Uh-huh. And in the movie, Brad Pitt's character is accused of murdering his wife, which is kind of interesting. Yeah. Robert Blake did die of heart disease on March 9th, 2023. He was 89 years old and Rosalyn Orbelleck is in our late 20s and lives a quiet life now. All right. Let's head back in for good things of the week. Hello. We have incredible news. The exactly right store is having an end of summer sale from September 3rd through September 7th. You can save up to 30% off store-wide on my favorite murder and exactly right March.

2:02:31The more you spend, the more you save. Now's the time to grab that shirt. Tote, hat, koozie, whatever else has been sitting in your cart for the last three months. Head to exactlyrightstore.com and use code summer sale for up to 30% off store-wide. Some exclusions apply. Goodbye. Goodbye. Welcome aboard season 6 of the Girlfriends. Flight or fight, which takes place 30,000 feet in the sky. There's great food, comfortable chairs and attentive stewardesses. The stewardesses were so beautiful. But in reality, the stewardess job is far less glamorous than it appears. It was the most sexist job I think you could have. In this era, the airlines told these stewardesses they have to be single. They had no good excuse for why they wouldn't let women be married. They have to be skinny.

2:03:33We were starving ourselves. And they have to be young. You would retire at age 32. But one day, a group of stewardesses said, this has got to stop. They risked it all, turning a fight for fairness into a revolution. Listen to the Girlfriends, Flight or Fight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Dancing with the Stars is looking for a new pro. And since last season, I came in eighth place. I'm basically an expert. I'm Daniel Fishall. And I'm Vouch Mrakowski. And we have a new podcast called Stepping on Toes with Danielle and Val. Every week, we're breaking down Dancing with the Stars the next pro. To find out who I'll be sharing the boring with next season. Listen to Stepping on Toes on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Stepping on Toes and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today. Okay, so my positive thing this week, and I just want to give this shout out to this

2:04:39movie that I can put on in the background. And Vince and I put it on at night when we get home from going out and we just want to watch something. And it's just, you could start it at any point. It just makes me so happy. It's called Los Angeles plays itself. Oh. You see it? No. It's so good. It's a documentary about Los Angeles in the movies. Oh. And it shows all the old school movies and all the places and things in Los Angeles in the background. And it's just as lovely thing to put on as a nice distraction and you can just watch it and enjoy yourself. I would love to see that. It's so good. That's really funny. After all the shit we've been saying, that's like the perfect thing to say. Like, no one, but it actually is really pretty. Los Angeles playing itself. Yeah, I bet Barrett is on there. I mean, there's, I think he was in New York. Well, never mind. Well, that's a day show that too. It's like, they say this is New York, but here's Los Angeles downtown. I think the Orphans in there as well.

2:05:40Oh, that's right. Showed downtown LA and what it's pretending to be or when they're, you know, to live in LA and what parts of LA it is. And it's narrated by the sky. It's got like the most soothing, lovely monotone voice. Oh. It's such a good fucking. It's such a good, it's just like a good living creature that I really like. Amazing. Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love to live in LA. It's a good movie. Yeah. I know. And it was making me laugh. People had some hilarious suggestions, but we should think of an actual name for it. Yeah. Because people were trying to do puns, of course, which God, God, people love puns. But I don't think we have yet unless you can think of one while I say this one. Okay. I just, last night I watched my, we all got to write two episodes on baskets this season and then my second one was on last night. Oh my God. And it made me laugh. Now look, I mean, part of the reason it makes me laugh is because Zach and Martha and

2:06:46Louis, they riff so much. So we get credit for stuff that we did not write. And it's awesome. I mean, like watching Zach riff and knowing that the things, like he just, he just writes the best jokes. So I remember when I can't remember what the actual joke is supposed to be, but Christine baskets says to Chip, she's like, Chip, it's not a competition. And he goes, yes, it is mother, everything is. And it made me laugh so hard. And that was totally Zach's joke. But the, there were things in it that were so fun to make up. And I remember when I was making him up thinking, I think this is going to work like having that feeling. And it, but it's so hard to believe in that when you're just making something up and writing it on a page. And you know, of course, I always talk about how much I love Jonathan Cryzels, my boss on that show and the director and the visionary of that show and the one that makes it work. It's his doing, but he was like, no, no, no, this is exactly how it should be in this ending

2:07:48scene where they're all in this Halloween store having a fight as a family is just like I was laughing at my own writing, which usually anything I watch of my own gives me great pain. It gives me lots of like retroactive shame and regret. And I should have done this better and I should have done this. And I just purely enjoyed myself. I love that. It was really fun. And I don't know, those guys are just, we get, it's just the coolest thing to be a part of. So that was exciting. That's awesome. Yeah. I love that. Wait, I know we'll call it bragging corner. How's that? How about the positive place? Positive. Positive vibes. Positive vibes. Yeah, something about party vibes. Party vibes. Yeah. My favorite party vibes. Yeah. Hashtag. I think party vibes. What do you think? This gives me party vibes. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to be sarcastic every time I say it if it's party vibes. Well, because it's stupid.

2:08:49Right. Like I mean, it is a joke. No, no, no. No. I mean, I like party vibes. No, we'll keep, let's keep workshopping that. You know what? I'm going to pin in it and let's fucking workshop it. Let's do party vibes is best of right now. Right now, there's all these people that are like, I tweeted something better on the day. Yeah, you did. You're right. You're, no, you're absolutely right about your own ideas. Yeah. Don't ever listen to anybody else's outside influence. Don't bother. Party vibes is what it is until we think of the better idea. Okay. And we'll get there. That's the one to beat. Yeah. Okay, we're back. So this episode was originally entitled. I love it. Galore, galore. What I love is that it's such a weird word and I used it twice and then you're just like, why are you saying galore all the time? But I like that it's the word galore galore. Like it's galore galore. It's so good and so bad. But if we were naming it today, maybe maybe something else, maybe we would call it the

2:09:53furthest darkest space, of course. That's good. Don't embarrass me. Oh, the altar of doubt. I mean, I still think about that all the time. Altar of doubt, that's right. Also the British Toby because Toby Jones is always relevant on this show in our lives. And then of course, hire the parrot instead. Just wisdom from the show. Truly. Look, the benefit of us just talking without thinking is that, you know, that's how a lot of good podcasting is made. And you don't realize the shit you say until you get the titles read back to you at the end of the episode. And you're like, I said that, how are we doing this for this long? It makes no sense. But it's very fun. Right. And then the meantime, let's go back to 2018 to say goodbye from there. Gosh. Thanks for listening. We love this community and we love being part of it. And we're so fucking grateful.

2:10:55Yeah. We really are. For you guys listening and for what's happened to our life, we don't talk about it because like we said, we're fucking terrified that it's going to all fall apart the minute we acknowledge it. And we say it at live shows. We don't really say it on recorded episodes. That's true. How insanely incredible. I don't I want to say my life has become because of this podcast. It's true. In a way that I think I fell in through a wormhole when I was a kid and ended up here because there's just no way that this is real. It's so true. It's so funny. They say that because I was today was my therapy today. Therapy day. So where which is when I get especially like raw and kind of like, what am I saying? Yeah. But I did have a moment where I told my therapist, it really does feel like everything has come together. It's like, it's that feeling like at the end of a prayer for Owen Meeney where all the sudden he understands why he was doing that trick shot with his friend the whole time because then they're in the war together or whatever.

2:11:55It had that feeling of like the stuff that we and I have been doing lately where I'm like, oh, I got it. I've been trained for this. Yeah. I kind of know what I'm doing here. And it finally makes sense. Yeah. I don't know. It's think what we're saying is thank you. Thank you guys for listening. Thanks for being a part of it. Thanks for having the best time. We're glad you guys are having the best time. Fucking hooray. We're so grateful and stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Bye. Bye. Elvis. Want cookie? Yeah. Yeah. You want cookie? You want cookie? Go boi. Want cookie? He got it. You got it. I know what it is. It's a better one. I'm sorry. Just keep saying. It's just stage mom. It's just stage mom. Hello. We have incredible news. The exactly right store is having an end of summer sale. From September 3rd through September 7th, you can save up to 30% off store-wide on my

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2:13:55I'm Daniel Fishel. And I'm Vouch Merkowski. And we have a new podcast called Stepping on Toes with Danielle and Val. Every week we're breaking down Dancing with the Stars the next pro. We find out who I'll be sharing the bar with next season. Listen to Stepping on Toes on America's number one podcast network, I Heart. Follow Stepping on Toes and start listening on the free I Heart Radio app today.