Remembering 9/11 With Rudy Giuliani & FDNY Fire Chief Robert Tucker

0:00Your sausage my muffin with egg didn't change you received it the sausage my muffin with egg extra volume meal Includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just five dollars only at McDonald's for a limited time Price and participation may vary promotion price and maybe lower than me pricing Know what else to do. I'm just going from place to place This is my fiance. I have I plan my whole future out with this person If I don't find time high, I have to start all over again Staking me my entire life to find him and I don't know what I will do without him Please please help me find So I wanted to talk to you about your experience of September 11 because I feel like we obviously have that in common

1:21We share that day. I know you and we went through it together, but not knowing each other I want to paint a picture for people that are listening right now watching of what was going on in the state of New York in New York in general in the world Homeland security like give us a little bit of a painting of what life was like Well, I mean it was the beginning of a new administration Clinton had had his eight years and then Bush won so we were what sort of like about eight months, nine months in New York Into the into the Bush administration Things were relatively peaked certainly internationally things were peaceful they seemed to be although Ben Laden had been causing a great deal of trouble I don't know if we were paying the sufficient amount of attention to it. No. Any had declared war against us which I guess we didn't take that seriously as we should In the city we were going through a Renaissance. I mean we were on the cover of one magazine after another as the city that had reclaimed itself the city had the city that had come back

2:36Crime was down to the lowest levels in decades. We had gone from 1.2 million people on welfare to 500,000 most of them working And it was a city with a tremendous amount of optimism So I think that was a good thing because I think if we had been where we were when I first became mayor depressed and 75% of the people wanted to leave the city like they do now We had had a hard time like dealing with it. Yeah And From my point of view I was near the end of my term I was going to figure out what I did next after Labor Day Right Because I didn't want to I didn't want to spend time thinking too much or looking for a job while I was mayor Created enormous conflicts of one kind or another. I had a few ideas of what I wanted to do. I had a contract to write a book

3:37Which was very substantial. I think it was a million and a half or two million dollars. Right So I wasn't worried about supporting myself after I got out. But I also was interested in being I wasn't going to retire. In fact I thought I'd work even harder Right When I left. And so it was about as peaceful as you can imagine. The night before it rained Really hard in New York. I remember it because it was a rain out of a Yankee game where Roger Clemens was going to try to win 20 games. And I also went to a movie about P.V. Reese that night with P.V. Reese's widow and Jackie Robinson's widow. Wow. Because the next day we were going to raise money to build a statue of them. And went home went to sleep woke up the next morning. It was a beautiful day. And it was also primary day. Okay. So it was we were having our primary elections. Democratic party, Republican party to nominate the candidate to run for mayor to succeed me. And the Democrat primary was kind of crowded. It was like four or five people.

4:54Republican primary were really two people. Mike Bloomberg and can't remember who was running cancer. But in any event. I thought okay today is going to be a little bit of a lighter day in the morning. So I canceled my morning meeting that I usually had eight in the morning made it for the afternoon. And I went and had breakfast with a friend. Bill Simon and with my counsel, Denny, because Bill wanted to run for governor of California. And he wanted my advice. And we went to the peninsula hotel. Okay. We had we had a terrific breakfast. And then what time was that? I probably got there around a quarter to eight. And then all of a sudden as an approach nine a quarter. As an approach nine a cock, one of my security people walked in and whispered to Denny young and Denny had a very strange expression on his face. And he said, May or I think we're going to have to leave right away. There's been a.

5:54There's a terrible fire down at the World Trade Center. They think of twin engine plane hit the North Chow and it's a disaster. So I got up right away and said, goodbye to Bill. He for some reason said God bless you, which seemed kind of ominous. Yeah. Although because at that point, we didn't know how bad it was. Right. Right. And the minute I got out, I looked up and I saw a beautiful sky. And I said, well, this was no accident. So now we have a crazy person or we have a cherished one of the other. Right. So I just want to say I was in Midtown. Also I worked for Bloomberg News at the time. I was working on the assignment desk. My Bloomberg was my boss. And I went into work at 5 a.m. And the thing you remember is how beautiful that was. Yes. No, not a cloud of sky. Yeah. And how warm it was and gorgeous. And also for regular people, it was the first day for a lot of people bringing their kids to school. Which was why a lot of people were not in the building that day. Not as many as would have been. So they were running late that morning.

7:00But I went in at 5 a.m. I remember the weather like you are talking about. And I was sitting on the newsroom floor listening to what was going on. We're, you know, doing the news of the day, doing our show. We had a live show. And next thing, you know, I hear somebody say World Trade Center Sunfire. And I remember like you're talking about the everybody assumed and thought and the news was reporting that it was a smaller plane. A guy who probably was out there. Didn't know what he was doing. Right. And flew into the North Tower. So sorry to interrupt you. So I got into my van. I sat in the back with Denny. And we started down quickly toward the World Trade Center. I tried to, I tried to reach and I was able to reach a few years ago. I was able to reach a few of police commissioner, my deputy mayor, Joe Loto. And but before I did, I looked, I could see the tower. And I could see a terrible fire. And it seemed to me it was worst in a twin engine plane.

8:01Yeah. Immediately, Jenny and I both thought this, I think this is worse. And I got a call. I can't remember the order in which I got them. But I got a call from my deputy mayor. Joe Loto, who told me it's a disaster down here. People are jumping out of buildings. And I actually thought he maybe was exaggerating a little. Maybe he just caught up in the emotion of it. The idea of people jumping out of the building was like, yeah, very hard to take. And very hard to imagine of how awful things must have been for their choice to be to jump rather than stay where they were. Then the police commissioner, I talked to the police commissioner and we didn't know what it was, but we said we're going to assume it. Let's assume it's a terrorist attack. You always assume the worst. We also had a trial going on, three blocks away from city hall about eight blocks away from the World Trade Center of Al Qaeda terrorists. And that had resulted in my having to close down a number of blocks in the city. So we were being warned about attacks, not that kind of an attack, but attacks.

9:11And we did know that if it wasn't terrorist attack, it was probably been locked. Right. Because of the focus on that trial. But at that point, we still didn't know for sure it was a terrorist attack. And as we got about a mile away, very close. I saw a big, big explosion. I didn't know what it was. I thought maybe it was a secondary explosion from the first one. Right. And Bernie, police commissioner called me immediately and said a second plane hit it is definitely a terrorist attack. Right. I said, she's right or he said, yep. And I tried, tried getting through the White House. And I couldn't. So I said, Bernie, when I get there, let's set up a command post. Right nearby. And let's put in hard lines because we need regular telephone lines. These cell phones aren't working efficiently. And we've got to talk to the president. He said, we've been able to get through. And I think we're going to have air cover pretty soon. But we've got to make sure. So I said, OK, well, you set up a command post.

10:24And I'll meet you when we set the place we were going to meet. And then we have to go over to the fire department command post and make sure everything is coordinated. So I got there 10 minutes later, maybe less. And they came up to me. They meeting my deputy mayor Joe Joe and Bernie police commissioner, the deputy police commissioner. And a group of my staff and Joe was the first to tell me again how terrible terrible it was. And and that we were doing everything we can to clear clear the area. Now, at this point, people didn't have the creativity is an awful word, but the creativity even think that the towers could fall at this point. Or did you think that there was a chance that they might you mean quickly, yeah, luckily, or at all. Oh, no, I thought they could fall. Well, not at that point. I hadn't seen how big quite how bad.

11:26But by the time I left, the command post, the fire department, I knew I knew they were going to come down at some point that day or later, but in stages, not imposed. I went to the fire department. I took the police commissioner with me. I could see that they were setting up a headquarters in a Merrill Lynch field office. They threw the people out. People seem very happy to get out. And they were putting in these big trunks. These big hard lines. So I felt pretty secure that we were going to get through. And so the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to go see the fire chief because he's running this. And let's make sure he's got everything he needs. So we walked about three blocks. And we got right below the North Tower and chief Gancy was there with his fire department fights a fire with the commander as close as he can get to getting a full view of the fire.

12:27He has like a board, like a podium. And on that podium is a recreation of the fire. It's where he can move his men around. Yeah. And he that's what he was doing. And he already had a lot of people in the building. So I said, when I got there, I looked up and I saw a guy jump. And I tell you it was it was really a traumatic experience watching this person jump watching him come all the way down. And I grabbed Bernie's arm and I said, Bernie, this is different than anything we've faced before. We don't have a plan for this. We're just going to have to make the best decisions we can and then ask God to make them right. And he said, well, at least we got a lot of experience. Yeah. And I said, Oh, well, okay. And I've got a lot of experienced people. And I went up to the chief and I said to the chief, can we get helicopters up there? Because there were a lot of people up there. And the chief looked at me and he said it to me in a very interesting way. He said, I can't get my guys above the fire.

13:35Interesting. So I looked and I could see that there was a firewall. Yeah. And what he was saying is I can get my people. And then he said, I can save everybody. No, no, I can save anybody. Everybody below the fire. Okay. He was telling me in a euphemistic way, those people up there are dead. Wow. Wow. I don't. I don't. I didn't feel the impact of that until that night when I thought about it. But what he was saying was those people are dead. Now I'm emotionally realized because I looked at them and I said, Oh my God. I guess people are going to die. Yeah. And he said, I can't put a helicopter up there to blow up. Flames are too inconsistent. Right. And he said a helicopter rescue for civilians is very, very hard. Anyway, right. I don't know if I can get that height, but it's really not in the cards given the flames that are coming out of there. Now it turns out they did save everybody below the fire. The 9-11 commission said it was the most effective rescue. So far in American history.

14:38That they saved every person that was conceivably able to be saved. So they saved everybody below the fire. Yeah. Luckily they were able to get above the fire. I know that, but a few areas they got above the fire and they were able to get some people down. You mean climbing up through the back stairs and weren't effective. But the reality is that 90% of the people above the fire died. Right. And probably even before the bill, many of them even before the building collapsed from smoke and innovation. Mostly from smoke. Yeah. Because the smoke up there was incredible. Yeah. People on the roof may be survived until the building came down. Yeah. As soon as I finished with the fire commission, I went back to the police department headquartered, they had set up. And I asked to get the president. And I got on the phone one of his assistants who was a good friend of mine. And the first thing I asked him is do we have air cover? And he said affirmative.

15:42And the minute he said that he was not a military guy. And the minute he said affirmative, I said, oh my goodness, we're already into military language affirmative. Yeah. And it was a funny feeling. And he said, yep, the vice president ordered fighters out to protect New York. They should be there by now. Yeah. I said, okay. Well, thank God because we don't want to. I said, how many. I said, how many. Do we know how many more attacks it may be? Yeah. Or how many planes are out there or something like that? And he said we've got about seven or eight that are still on account of four that we're tracking and worried about. Right. I said, what is this point? How they shut down there? Well, I asked him. I heard rumors. I said I heard rumors that they attacked the Sears tower in Chicago. He said, no, the Pentagon. He said, yes. Okay. Yes, they had already attacked the Pentagon by the time this conversation took place. Don't think the plane had come down yet in in Pennsylvania.

16:49But in any event, he said there were seven more planes unaccounted for. And therefore we should at least be ready for a possible other attacks. What was your feeling when they told you another plane had hit elsewhere in Washington D.C.? My point that we're under attack and who knows what was going to happen. I mean, remember until later in the day when it stabilized, we were not just working on trying to save people and mitigate. And we were working on this could be five more attacks. I mean, it could be. So the first thing we did originally is we closed down the bridges and tunnels. So nobody else would come in so that whatever number of people we had in the city were frozen. Yeah. And then we tried to get them out. Sure. Yeah. At the same time, we closed the bridges and tunnels because in the first World Trade Center attack, it had been planned in New Jersey. Yeah. And we particularly wanted nobody coming in from New Jersey. Now since that time, we had we had infiltrated those moss, which became very controversial later.

17:58But I think it was a brilliant thing to do. And we knew that they knew that they probably were not the cause of it because we knew everything going on of those moss. And they had gotten no intelligence about this. And they were not connected to Al Qaeda. And we were pretty certain it was Ben Laden because of the trials there and because of the warnings we had. We had been warned on during the Millennium celebration in the end of 99 that there was going to be attack and attack at the New Year celebration. Wow. And that was going to be from Ben Laden. And as we got closer, the intelligence turned out to be less and less reliable. And I did really consider canceling it. But I didn't. And instead we, for about two weeks, we did everything week. The colonels cooked up a new $10 bucket of the day just for you. Monday, 10 wings for $10. Tuesday, eight piece fried chicken for $10. Wednesday, eight tenders for $10. Thursday, 10 wings for $10. Friday, 24 nuggets for...

19:11Oh, you guessed it, didn't you? $10. The $10 bucket of the day deal every weekday, only at KFC, it's finger-lican goo. Prices and participation vary. Well, supplies last. Not available on their party ordering platforms. Tax extra. Good to make that area safe. We went... We went blow ground. I mean, there's a whole city in New York, right? Right? Blow ground. Yeah. We secured that on New Year's Eve. There were police offices. Blow ground, believe it or not, to make sure that nobody could get in there. And that night, when I walked up to press down the button that brings down the the the ball, which by the way is not really true. It comes down automatically and you press a button and you better get it right otherwise you look stupid. And but they try to make it look like that. I probably don't trust a maid or do it on time. Yeah. When I walked up that those steps, it was the only time in my life where I thought I might get shot.

20:17Because they told us so much about attacks. I saw a boy, they just really can't protect you. Yeah. Now, I have had a lot of experience with protection. I was the associate attorney general when Ronald Reagan was shot. And I helped arrest Hinkley. And I helped to rearrange his security afterwards. So I was kind of an expert even on my own security. Yeah. Because I had done it for many, many other people. Right. And I've been threatened numerous times. And it never bothered me. Yeah. That was the one time I looked at the buildings. And I thought about boy, well, that is just put one person in there. It's a good shot. And I'm gone. Right. And I say, security, sorry, security is such an interesting thing. Homeland security has a huge job that they have to get it right every time and be prepared every time. I'm 100% sure. I only have to get it right once. And they don't most of the time they get it wrong. Think of all the terrorists we catch. Yeah. Right. But when they get it right, it's devastating.

21:20It's devastating. It's devastating. Yeah. It's like looking for a, it's like looking for a little symbol in a big giant bay of hay. I mean, it's, you know, the other thing strange about it Rachel, after it happens, you can go back and find the things you should have looked at. Yeah. But they were buried. Right. And I've never, I've never been a second guest there about this except a few times where it was obvious. Some of the latest attacks that have taken place. It seems to me something's wrong in our warning system because you've had these people that are mentally ill. Yeah. And they threatened and they've been online. I think so. I think particularly the Boston marathon. That, that guy had gone to Russia. Yeah. The FBI decided not to continue. But didn't turn it over to the local police. Right. I'd have gone crazy when I was the mayor. They did that to me.

22:25Right. If they had found this guy who was all involved with the Cheshiren rebels had just gone to Russia, but decided, oh, we don't have enough resources. And they didn't let the New York City Police Department know that it had been a revolution. I mean, I've had gone crazy. Yeah. Sometimes you have to do that. You have to stage that in government to get attention. So I think we've gotten sloppy. But the reality is that one, when you found the things that warned about it, they were buried so far in the ground, it'd be hard to save anybody. They didn't think wrong enough finding it out. Right. Right. After the fact that the theory is the conspiracy theories about it. Disgusting me. Yeah. They really discussed me. It's almost seems that sacrilegious. You know, I know what happened. Everybody knows what happened. You don't believe it was an inside job like some people. I see I did it or some crazy thing like that. No, I pushed it. Bush did it. Give me a break. Give me a break. The poor man. You know, I was with the man a lot during that four-week period. The man was ripped apart over it like I was. And he did everything.

23:36There's not a damn thing we asked him for. He didn't do for us. Yeah. I mean, he was he was up. I once said that no matter what, but what happens with George Bush just for the way he reacted after September 11th, he'll be a great president. And particularly by hitting them back so fast, we'd have gotten attacked again if he didn't. I mean, I know there's very controversial. Yeah. But particularly the Afghans war was totally necessary to sock them in the head. Yeah. Because Clinton had been too easy on them. Then Lawden took out a naval ship, other attacks and we go bomb the field. You might as well tell him attack again. Right. And I remember as I was walking along and this gets a little political, I told Bernie thank God Gordon, get elected. Because I figured if Gorgot elected, he might give him Nobel Peace Prize, who knows. But he sure wouldn't hit him hard. Yeah. And I knew Bush. I knew Bush was a tough guy. Right. And that he did to be a hell of a reaction. Now you can start debating the Iraq war and all that.

24:43But that immediate reaction, I think, was critical to our not being attacked again. And it also took out their resources. Those soldiers who were on horses and those people are incredible. Right. You know, none of them knew how to ride horses. Yeah. I met them. They came and brought me and I have too bad we're not at home because I have at home a knife. And a headdress of the first guy they killed. Wow. And they brought it to me with a plaque. And I said I want you to take this for the people of the city. Wow. I really should give that to the museum. I think I will. Yes. That's amazing. So let's get back to the day of September 11th. What were your feelings when the first tower came down and where were you exactly? I was in after I finished with the fire department chief. I went back to the headquarters. Okay. The temporary headquarters. We had set up and what street was this on?

25:45So it was on it was on Park Place and Barrow. Okay. So we walked in. And the police department remarkably had already transformed it. They're all on the phone and seemed to me as I walked in. So the White House is on the phone for you. So I went into one office and it was this gentleman that I mentioned a work for the president. And I said I'd like to talk to the president. And he said. Oh, he said we're evacuating the White House. And the vice president will call you back. So I had an image in my head that they were evacuating the president from the White House. When he said I did not realize the president was in Florida and speaking to children and you know what eventually was the case. So that was somewhat ominous when he said that. My God, the White House is being evacuated. He said the vice president will call you back very, very shortly.

26:50But you have a protection. Be alert to the fact that there could be other attacks. I said we're anticipating ground attacks. That they might have followed. They might follow this up. They might have people in the city and other cities. My police department is right now securing 130 locations. So we we kept a list of terrorist targets. This started. Oh, even before the 93 in the 93 attack. Remember, I had been US attorney before, which was very helpful because I was very familiar with the joint terrorism task force. I prosecuted their cases. So the joint terrorism task force, which is a great idea and started in New York FBI police department together, sharing intelligence. We used to we used to use arrests of terrorists. And then we would go through or the FBI would go through their targets. And from that, we would create a list of their most.

28:01They're priority targets from one to about 130. And we kept changing it depending on who we arrested. So let's say we we had for example killed several terrorists in Brooklyn about a year earlier. So we took out of that building all kinds of plans. And based on those plans. And then whatever happened all around the country, which we would get, we would give that to the FBI. They would give us. We would come up with this list. And the number one target on the list was not the world trade center. This is the stock exchange. Particularly almost every terrorist that I ever was involved in arresting or got intelligence about. They had a great interest in our bridges and tunnels. Yeah, they had all kinds of plans for our bridges and tunnels. In fact, about a year earlier, we had killed a guy who had all of the plans for a. Subway connection in Brooklyn. And we shot him in the building he was in as he was going for the toggle switch to blow up the building. So we had a lot of experience with terrorism, but not this particular kind.

29:14Kind of attack. As soon as I got off the phone. It seemed to me very quickly. One of the policemen came in and said the vice president or maybe said the White House is on the other phone. So I walked over to offices. I picked up the phone with the White House secretary who said Mayor Giuliani. I said, yes, said vice president Shane, you'll be on him one minute. I said, thank you. I'm holding on to the phone. And I have my chief of my security detail, John, who vain next to me. And all of a sudden the desk starts to shake. It looks like an earthquake. I look outside. I hear a yelling and screaming. People going on the desk. John takes me. The phone goes out. John takes me. And John with an Irish football player. So this big guy. He took me and he tried to put me down on the desk. And I said, I'm not going to that desk. I watched Patton. I'm not doing that.

30:22So I stood up. I stood up and I said, what the hell happened? And all of a sudden chief as a visitor who is remarkable. I had remarkable people remarkable. I just went to see him in the hospital. Chief Esbizit Eliell is out. The tower came down. Now I thought and so did John and so did Bernie, the police commissioner. When he said the tower came down, he meant the tower at the top of the World Trade Center. I didn't think he meant the entire building. But all of a sudden our building starts to shake. I could just fall apart. And for about three minutes, I really thought he was going to fall apart. And I really thought he was going to get killed. And my daughter was just going to crash in us because the building was so we came out and we huddled together. Well, this is going on. The building is shaking. You can hear noises. And did you have windows near you? Yeah, the windows didn't break believe it or not. But you could see outside very quickly a cloud that looked like an atomic explosion.

31:29It looked like what you would imagine Hiroshima, Nagasaki will like. And also in a strange strange way pretty soon wasn't right away. It's like it was. It was almost like it was a wind pushing it through. It was like moving. Yeah. So we try to decide. We can't go outside. We can't stay in the building. We just experienced the thing shaking. I was going to fall down. Who knew what was going to happen to it. So I said, I remember this is connected to a building on Park Place where the Lord Department is located. Those buildings are next to each other. I bet there's a connection underground underground to them. And the police commissioner said, yeah, yes, so one of them did. So we went down. We went down. This is a group of about 40 people. But it's a very significant group because it's the police commissioner, the deputy police commissioner and the chief of the police department.

32:35There's a three most experienced people in the police department. There's three of my four deputy mayors. If we had to lost that group, the city would have lost two thirds of its senior management. Yeah. So we go downstairs and we try the different exits and none of them open. We go back upstairs thinking maybe things have gotten better and things look much worse. Now you can see debris going through the streets. You can see I could like part of a desk or I don't know what the heck it was. You could just see this debris going through the street. And all of a sudden two guys come up to us that I think worked in the building and they said there's one chance that there's a door. They're all locked, but there's one that I think we can get open. Do you want to try again? We said sure. So we go downstairs and they open the door and you could just a sigh of relief. You can hear everybody's.

33:39We walk out into the lobby of Park Park Place and when we look outside, you sort of say to yourself, I just went from bed to worse because outside was a disaster. And people were walking in the building cut. And one of my police, one of my deputy police commissioners who had been on my police detail and was a, was a. Marshall arts champion. He comes in looking frightened and cut over across his face. And he said it's terrible out there. So we got to decide do we stay in the building over the outside. And I talked it over with Bernie and with Denny and we decided. There's a strangest decision. I mean, strange. I mean, you think it would have been a righteous back. We decided that if we went outside, we would lose less people because we stayed in the building and that building came down. We lose the entire top management of the city.

34:44Yeah. And at this point, other people are joined us. But if we go outside, we will lose some people because they'll get hit. But we're not going to lose everybody. Were you guys worried at this point that the second tower was going to come down? Didn't even think of it right away. Right. And didn't know the tower came down. Oh, right. You're still thinking it was the top. Yeah. But but in the back of my mind and everybody's mind is, this seems like an awful lot of damage for just the top of the building coming down. So we thought that maybe other parts were continuing to come down. And I think then at some point before we went outside, we were told that the that the tower had come down entirely. Yeah, but we know what that meant. I mean, I expected to see a stump, you know, with a lot of the building down, but I didn't. I never envisioned an implosion. I envisioned it came down like that. So then we did go outside and held a press conference. And I told everyone to go north and get out of there. And to remain calm at the police department, the fire department were all coordinated, which they were.

35:54And that the rest of the city is being protected against any possible other attack because Bernie and I had dispatched about 150 units of the police department to those targets that I told you about. So we sent some of the same batteries. We sent some up to the Bronx. We sent some out to Brooklyn, the Kennedy Airport, the Guaradi Airport, the ones that are on that list. And we had this we had run this plan maybe 10 times as either as as exercises or where we had terrorists that nobody knew about. So this felt comfortable when you had to do this. And then all of a sudden we get on the street, we walk about two blocks. And I feel John grabbed me again and he starts running me up the block. And I said, John, what are you doing? And he said, look, and now we hear this noise. I look down. So if you've ever furnished a restaurant, hotel, or an office, you know the drill. Five vendors, five invoices, five delivery windows.

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37:59So we grabbed a lot of people. There was one man who had a hard time walking and I said, Bernie, let him use your car. So Bernie took, put a stuff to a bunch of people in his car and said, get them the hell out of here civilians. And we continue to walk. And the idea now was, where are we going to set up our command post? So we thought of the first precinct, but they would probably have no power. We thought of the police department and called they had no power. We walked into a big hotel along the way and walk right out because when we walked in, the police commissioner of the fire commissioner and I, we saw that the entire first two, four, we're all glass. It said, it could be a hell of a place. We're all glass. And finally, we decided on the police academy. Because the police academy is up around 22nd Street. It's out of the area. But it's closer to you and get there quickly.

39:01It had power and it's gigantic facility. It's a big facility. And it had all the emergency communication equipment that we needed already there. But on the way, we passed a firehouse in the village and we decided, well, let's make some phone calls from here to make sure, call the governor. And so we broke in to the firehouse because it had been locked. They were out at the fire. That firehouse lost 12 people. And it was one that I had been to a lot because when I first mayor, I lost three firefighters from that firehouse. And we broke in and I called the governor. And when I got the governor on the phone, he said, thank God we thought you were gone. I said, what do you mean? I thought you were dead. I said, oh, that's kind of weird. They actually had drawn up papers for the emergency governance of the city if I was dead. My deputy mayor, Rudy Washington was with the governor and he was helping him do it, which I'm not. That's what they should do.

40:07But I actually didn't know that until much later. They actually did. It was that bad. And when he said it, it was a little startling. I knew we were in danger. But I didn't think people thought we were dead. Right. And I probably, I probably didn't realize how long we were trapped because I was so busy trying to figure a way out. It seemed like it went by very fast. Yeah. And then the governor and I decided to meet at the, I told them I was setting up a command post at the police academy. And we decided to meet there. And we made a decision that I think was very, very critical. And as a decision that I lecture people about all the time in an emergency, we decided that until this emergency was over, we were going to be together constantly. We're going to put out two staffs together. We're going to hold our meetings together. We're going to make our decisions together.

41:09And he said, I will join you at the police academy. And we'll, from now on, your staff and my staff will be joined as a hip. And I don't know if he just recommended that or I recommended that, but we both immediately agreed to it. And the reason we did that is because there's no time and emergency for the, the staffs to fight with each other. And they inevitably will. Right. And an emergency thing is go wrong. And they're all political. So then they blame someone else. So let's say something went wrong. The governor will be fine with it. I'll be fine with it. The president will be fine with it. But my staff will blame him or his staff will blame me or plus you want things to get done like that. So we can't call all many get approval. Then go to Washington so they all came together for the next month and a half. We ran our staff meetings together. He ran the state and I ran the city from our emergency management center, which then moved up to Peter 90 something or other.

42:13There are a lot of stories that are somewhat well known in the last 22 years or so that you know are repeated every anniversary. So we know about some of these people that have died. Was is there a story that stands out to you that people don't know or someone that affected you? Yeah. Still kind of. I'll tell you one. That isn't mentioned enough, but because you don't know who he is. Now when I took the first group down first group of family members down to the World Trade Center, which we didn't allow for about 10 days. And I did it by boat because at that point our our headquarters was up on the west side right at the pier. Because we needed unlimited space. And we got a boat and we came went down and I took as many family members as I could. And one person was there who had actually been in the building. She worked in the building and her father was a firefighter.

43:30And she worked for I think Morgan Stanley. And she said that I said what you know what what happened in the building because Morgan Stanley got a lot of people out because of a head of security Rick Raskar who actually went around and to every floor and told them to get out and actually pushed them out. He never got out. He was the last one out like the captain with the ship. So I knew that story. She said, but you don't know. I wish I could find out who this man is because he was standing by the elevator and he was helping people get on and pushing them in and pushing them in. And I was one of the last people pushed in. And I said, well you you come in now and he said no, no, no, let's get the young people and I've already had my life. Wow. So I just want to tell you a little bit because my if you were I don't know if you remember two days later, I associated press gentleman took a photo of me.

44:34I was at Bellevue looking for my fiance and just to sort of give you a picture. I do remember. I was 26 years old. I had just gotten engaged to who I thought was the love of my life. He was 32. His name's Andy O'Grady. And just saying his name makes me cry. Sorry. I didn't mean to do this. But I lost everything and going to Bellevue that day. I remember looking on the computer and seeing that he might have been taken there. And so with hundreds of other people I'm standing in line and it was interesting because you know everybody made flyers. And I don't know why we did that. It was like what everybody did. Right. So I got the most recent photo that I had. And I was laughing because I was like, oh god, he would hate this photo. Right. But I picked the photo because I loved his smile. And I just went where I heard that he was and you're talking to the people in front of you and behind you. Listening to their story and each one was worse than the other and it's mothers crying and children crying looking for their parents. And it was just awful. And when I got to the front of the line they checked his name and said he wasn't there. And there was a bunch of.

45:45Sorry, my god. No, that's all right. There was a bunch of reporters. And they said just tell us about Andy. I thought it was such a great way to let people know who he was. And that but looking back, that's what I thought. But as a 26 year old girl, I was like, you have to help me. I don't know what else to do. I lost my whole future, my whole life. And it was as a young girl, the worst thing that I've ever been through. And I can imagine being through and people don't understand how that affected people's lives. And it changes the trajectory of who you are at that age and probably anyone who went through it. But it was an awful thing. The change is the trajectory of the country. Yeah, right. Yeah. And it was a. It was an unreal event in terms of being able to describe the magnitude of it. Yeah. It's one of the events. So I mean, one of the ways to measure the magnitude of it. It's one of those events where everybody remembers where they were when they were. Of course. I'm sure this happens to you when you tell them you were involved.

46:50People almost feel compelled to tell you people have come up to me in airports and train stations and stop me. Yeah. Because they want me to know where they were. Right. I don't know. I don't know them. Right. But tell me, you know, I was in a grandma school at the time and the teacher took us a lot of class. And so if you've ever furnished a restaurant, hotel or an office, you know the trail. Five vendors, five invoices, five delivery windows. But there's a better way to do this. Craten Barrel Contract is a business to business program that covers three brands. Craten Barrel, CB2 and Craten Kids with one account, one order, one delivery. They've got durable plates and glasses, contract grade furniture and lighting that looks custom that's built for the wear of busy space actually takes. And the best part is you're not doing it alone. A dedicated rep handles your project end to end from volume orders to design curation. Plus members get 20% off tax exempt checkout and flexible payment with no minimums. Learn more at Craten Barrel.com slash podcast. That's Craten Barrel.com slash podcast.

47:50For someone to say I was at my desk and not even somebody involved in it. Right. I said my desk and we all got and we all had a leave. And it's the way they connect to that. You're more than people will come up to you who are connected to you. Yeah. Right. You took this role. I think, correct me if I'm wrong in August. Yeah. Last year. So you've already been through a September 11th day. This will be your second one. What is the preparation that goes into the celebration or the moment? Yeah. I mean, September is a very hard month for the FDN. Why? As you roll out of August, we know it's coming. And there's something in the air that's just not normal. Yeah. And when that on that day, we're 343 New York City firefighters are killed.

48:51And I mean, it's an extraordinary number of lives lost. But it's not just the number. It's who? The entire leadership team. Yeah. The most specialized special firefighters, the best of the best of the best. And it hurts. It feels, in fact, it feels different for me now talking about it. And it did because I wasn't, I didn't have both my feet on the ground in September. I had just been sworn in. I was a fire commissioner for a month. But today, it hurts me to even talk about it. And what hurts even more is the astronomical number of firefighters who have died of illnesses that they got in the recovery effort.

49:52Hundreds, hundreds. And the number of firefighters who are sick, yeah, there are going to be hundreds and hundreds more. We've already passed 343 now. But you're going to get to five, six, seven, eight, hundred, a thousand more firefighters who tried to find their brothers under the rubble. We're going to die as a result of it. Right. It's incredible. It's unfathomable. What? So on September 11th, there are, it's a full day of events. How much of that are you involved? Yeah. I mean, I, I start very early in the morning. There's a firefighter memorial up on Riverside Drive. There's a mass at a firehouse up and up near there. Then I come down because I want to be down at the site by about 8 8 15. And we, we ring the bells to honor the exact time in which both planes crashed into the buildings. We read the names of those who were killed, not just firefighters, but everybody that were who was in the buildings.

51:09It's there for that whole name. Yeah. Yeah. How do they? I've always wondered how do they pick? It's always family members, right? That are reading the names. Yeah. And they just every year. It's just. Yeah. I mean, you don't look. It's, it's almost 25 years since, since that day. And you know, some parents aren't alive anymore. Yeah. Some, some, some people only go to the milestone days, 25 years, 20 years, 15 years. You know, time has moved on. And, but it has not moved on for the FDNY. It is a solemn, miserable, heartache. Right. It's a really difficult time for us. And, and I said it earlier, you know, as, as in my capacity as the consolar in chief of the FDNY, which I take very, very seriously, it's, it's very heavy to to hug and, and, and to, to love people who I don't really know.

52:25But who my heart bleeds for. Right. And who there is a sense of knowing and seeing them because of what they went through. And you just feel, indeed, what I have always thought was amazing. And it's always very hard for me. Anyways, even to talk about, but walking by the firehouses in the month of September or the days before whenever they put out the people, the people who died from that firehouse, they usually have their pictures out. I don't do, I don't know if they still do that. No, no, we have memorials of, of firefighters. And in the fires in every firehouse. For those who were working on 9 11, but, you know, sadly, we've lost firefighters for other reasons and, and in the firehouse where they were, we have a big plaque and pictures. Some have, you know, their turnout codes or their helmets. It's really a, one of the real special parts of the FDNY is exactly, is just how, how much they have been working on it.

53:25And how much they, they honor the fallen. Yeah. And, and how important those members of our department are today to the culture that we still honor. Yeah. It's been incredible to see how many children of those that were lost in 9 11 have become firemen. Yeah, it's awesome. No, it's incredible. I mean, that's, that's, it's so special. You know, I have the honor of, I think, I think, I think, I'm going to have a lot of fun. You know, I have the honor of, of swearing in new probationary firefighters. And of course, I always know who they are. And I just, I, every single person that walks across that stage is very, very special, especially to me. Some because they served in our armed forces, some because they, they, they, you know, have a dad that's iconic, who, you know, they, they followed or grandpa.

54:29But the, the most special ones are, are the legacy children of the 9 11, fallen. Yeah. And it must be nice for you to be able to witness what their parents couldn't or what their father. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, it's just, it's done so well. Yeah. And so respectfully. I mean, you know, I, I can't rave enough about what's going on inside. FDNY. And I'll tell you something that's interesting because I was a trustee of the FDNY Foundation. I was an honorary fire commissioner of the city of New York. You think you know what's going on in FDNY. Trust me. I thought I knew what's going on inside this place. You know nothing until you're part of it. And, you know, even, even I had some FDNY sweatshirts like I, I wear the, the, the garb that I get with such pride now.

55:33It's, it's not just because I'm a firebuff. Now it's because I'm a part of it. And, and I wear that patch with pride and with, with a dignity. There's something really extraordinary happening there. And I'm very, very excited to talk about it. Right. Can you talk about your own experience with 9-11 and where you were? Yeah. So my 9-11 story really starts on September 10th. I, I was playing in a golf outing at Purchase Country Club. And I got a phone call from a guy named John O'Neal who was an FBI agent who had just taken the job as head of security for the World Trade Center. And John and I were friendly. You know, because, because of the story, people think, oh, we were best friends. We were not best friends.

56:33But we were good. We were friends and, and, and we saw each other four or five times a year socially, but not, not more, four times a year. And he called me and he said, hey, look, I have an opportunity for you in your, I was in the security business. And I said, John, I'm playing golf and I call me tomorrow. He's like, no, no, it's a today opportunity. I said, John, skip me. I said, I'm at this really nice place, Purchase Country Club. It's, I don't want to hang out with people after I'm going to shower, I have a couple cocktails, I'm going to eat some food, I'm going to go home. He's like, Robert, I'm going to wait for you. I'm like, John, this is ridiculous, but okay. So I shower up, I have a couple drinks, I go down to the World Trade Center, September 10th. It's pouring rain at this point. I go up to his office, he shows me his office, we talk, he tells me what the problem is. We're hanging out. He said, let's go up to windows on the world for a drink, September 10th. Up we go. It closes.

57:37We go back down, his car is in the garage, mine's on the street. I go out to the car that was driving me and we're going to go up to a lanes. On second avenue, we go up to a lanes, we have a big dinner, we have a few more drinks. Now John's not driving, he's in the car with me, where someone was driving us. We go out to the China club. Now we're at China club and we agree that we're not going to start the job tomorrow and I call it off. We're hanging out and it's now September 11th and I decide it's time to go home. I left John there. The next morning was an election morning and I was voting and I heard about a plane hitting the World Trade Center.

58:37I thought, wow, that's going to be cool to see. I want to go down to see that. I didn't think terrorism, I didn't think, and I thought, wow, I'm a fire buff. I want to see that. I got on the FDR drive in my little BMW and I drove down the FDR drive and fell behind a police car that was going down. As I'm driving down the FDR drive, just before the Brooklyn Bridge, you could see the World Trade Center on fire and I watched the second plane hit. I thought, oh my god, this must be something wrong with the radar. The autopilot. I'm still not, I know I'm supposed to sit here and say, I thought terrorism right away. I didn't. I'm honest. I literally thought something was wrong with whatever the avionics and it was causing planes to think they're at some altitude and they're not. And so I just continued to go there and I got out of my car and I walked there and I knew all the fire chiefs and I was saying hi to everyone and and and at this point are they all just congregating downstairs.

59:47There's massive amounts of firefighters coming in and people are leaving or fleeing and I'm there because I can be and I had been doing the security at the stock exchange and I was standing with my guys there and then we walked over and they're welcome. I walked over and I walked back and walked over and then this building started to rumble and come down and I was in big trouble and I was able to run to a side door of the Woolworth building. And by the grace of God, I'm banging on the door. I can't breathe. It's completely dark. I'm with trying to breathe through my jacket. I was wearing a suit. I'm banging on the door and a police officer I knew Kim Reister later became a police chief but opened the door and she goes Robert and I don't care.

1:00:48I came in the building and we shot the door and she got some water and poured it on me and and and I lived. But what was so arbitrary about that day is who lived and who didn't live because there were other people standing not far away from me who ran in a different direction and they're not they're not here. And so that's my September 11 story and look, I had a business and a business to run with an office by the stock exchange. And now we had no power and we had no, you know, became a very big challenge to run. I tried to, you know, there was no cloud. If you weren't running your business out of the cloud so we tried to take as much as we could. We had a payroll to make. It was a very, very, very hard time. So, honestly, one happened to the guy that you had been out with the night before. He was killed.

1:01:49He was killed. Yeah. I'm so sorry. Yeah. You know, I was working at Bloomberg at the time and I worked a 5 a.m. shift and I had just gotten back from Greece and I'll never forget waking up that morning and I was on Greece time. So I was up even earlier at 3 in the morning and I said to my fiance or he was watching the weather channel. Actually, when I came out when I was getting ready for work and he said, wow, it's going to be a beautiful day just as beautiful as when we were in Greece. And so going to work that day, you know, we all remember how beautiful and clear of the day was out of nowhere kind of and in covering the news. You know, working on a newsroom floor, there's hundreds of TVs everywhere up top on our desks. We all have four TVs, you know, and the first plane hit and everyone thought it was a little commuter plane. And I remember, you know, all the guys on air, a guy named Dylan Radigan, who I'm still very close with, was the anchor at the time caught on air.

1:02:56And most of the people that were in news at the time that we're doing live stuff were stuck on air until noon. So it really defined a lot of people's careers at the time. And Dylan and everyone else was reporting it was a commuter plane or something and it was an accident. And you're right, like no one even thought that this could be terrorism. And when the second you didn't even know what terrorism really was. Right. Right. You know, you had to be John O'Neill. Yeah. Who had been the irony of John dying that morning. It's like he had been trying to tell the world after the cold bombing. Yeah. That there's a really bad group of people who are trying to hurt us. Yeah. Don't forget we had a 93 bombing there as well. And so, but I don't think terrorism was what it is. Right. And even Andy, my fiance at the time, had been there for the 93 bombing. And he would tell, he told a story about how, you know, they told him not to go anywhere. And he played poker with everybody. You worked at San Maroneal and they played poker until they were allowed to go downstairs.

1:03:59Yeah. So even after the second plane hit, which was his building, I could see that he was above where it hit. And so I, again, didn't come from a place of fear. I thought, oh, he'll just go up to the roof, you know, and none of us had. And this is a terrible word to use, but I believe it. The creativity in our heads to think of buildings are going to fall. Yeah. Like that was not even a possibility. I agree with you. I just never dreamt. So if you've ever furnished a restaurant, hotel or an office, you know the drill. Five vendors, five invoices, five delivery windows. But there's a better way to do this. Creighton Barrel contract is a business to business program that covers three brands. Creighton Barrel, CB2 and Creighton Kids with one account, one order, one delivery. They've got durable plates and glasses, contract grade furniture, and lighting that looks custom that's built for the wear of busy space actually takes. And the best part is you're not doing it alone. A dedicated rep handles your project end to end, from volume orders to design curation.

1:05:01Plus, members get 20% off, tax exempt checkout, and flexible payment with no minimums. Learn more at Creightonbarrel.com slash podcast. That's Creightonbarrel.com slash podcast. Yeah. That those buildings could collapse. So when that rumbling happened and you were down there and then this blackness happened, in your head where you like the building came down or you didn't know. I was because I was running for my life because I don't know if you if you saw it, but this this this cloud of dirt and dust and the building was chasing me. And it came over me. But you knew what it was. Oh, yeah. I knew and I knew I was in big, big trouble. Right. And I was in in survival mode. Yeah. But I also have to say that I think I knew I was alive. Yeah. And I was fairly unhingered. Right. And I thought there must be a million dead people behind me.

1:06:01Yeah. And I mean, look, it's it's an unacceptable thing to to to say it was only. Yeah. But I know what you mean. But I thought there would be 50,000,000, 100,000 dead people. I couldn't imagine. Yeah. There wouldn't be. And it was incredible how many people did make it out and how many stories there were. It's the greatest rescue operation of all time. Yeah. As a fireman that made it upstairs and we're getting people down. This is the greatest rescue operation ever. Yeah. And it's the cops and the firemen and the port authority. They did it. Yeah. And yes, they paid a breathtaking toll. Yeah. But they did it. They did it. They really they really saved a lot of people. And sadly, I know that you've suffered a huge loss and so did so many people. But you know, I still sit here saying it's the greatest rescue operation of all time. Yeah.

1:07:01No, I agree. And it is interesting because it's like you were talking about before, I feel a kinship with, you know, I can walk by someone and if you hear them telling their story about who they lost on September 11th or they hear me talk about it, it's a closeness. You just can't express with anybody else. No, no. I know so many people whose lives have long been rebuilt. But who are deeply scarred? Oh, yeah. By what you, which I suspect you might be. Well, my life is much different now and always, you know, we can all be healed to a certain extent. It's in my bones. It's a deep scar. Right. Just talking about it will, you know, make me very emotional because as a 26 year old girl, it was terrible. Of course. I mean, I hope that it's terrible to talk about for you now because and then think about my role in the FDNY.

1:08:02It hurts me. It hurts me and three hundred and forty and we'd still talk to those families all the time. They come to events. We see them. And the upsetness is the tears isn't about necessarily my loss. It's about that feeling that a lot of people really just don't understand that what happened that day was so terrible. Terrible. I agree with you. And, and you know, you hear about these things that happen all the time. Are you hear what happens when my buildings get blown up or people die? And unless you're in it, you know, you can watch it on the news and it's terrible to watch. When it really affects your life, you can never recover from that. Part of what shook me so the other night on Park Avenue was that it was the first time I think that I felt some of the things I felt on September 11, 2001. I just, you know, we initially didn't know how many shooters there were at the beginning.

1:09:05There was a report of multiple shooters in the building and I just thought, oh my God, here we go again. On my watch. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Do you remember the building that collapsed a couple years ago in Miami in the middle of the night? Yeah. And that had nothing to do with terrorism, but I remember watching the news of 24-hour cycle of where these people are we going to recover and it sent me back into remembering what that was like and listening to the reporters talk to the family members that were standing outside waiting and saying, oh, I know that they must be down there somewhere. And that false sense of hope that you really have. And it really brought me back. And I had a daughter now, right? And my daughter's watching it with me and I'm trying to explain to her, this is what I went through. I sat there and I believed and hoped maybe he would be found somewhere. Maybe he would, there would be someone who remembered what happened because that not knowing of those, that person's last moments is just was the worst thing for me. I think being a parent also does factor into all of this.

1:10:08And what we want for our children and the life we want our children to have, at least for me, does play a role in this. And I know that I think about it a lot in terms of the work I'm doing now and trying to leave the place a little better than it was when I found it. Well, okay. So speaking of that, since 9-11, how has the FDNY changed? Like, operational preparedness? Yeah, I mean, it's a really ultra-modern, sophisticated, all hazards, public safety agency. It's not just a fire department anymore. And so it's really state of the art, including that we have a counterterrorism center within the fire department. Speaking about preparedness and attacks of all types and just the training, the equipment,

1:11:12the preparation, the thoughtfulness that we go through every day practically is really something I think all New Yorkers should be very proud of. We learned a lot from September 11th, mistakes were made. If it happened again today, what would be different? What would you have changed? What are you guys prepared for now? Remembering that I'm not a firefighter, and I'm not an EMT or paramedic, the staff of chiefs that I have working with me today are so keen to what happened and the lessons learned and so many incidents. As recently as the wildfires in California, I sent a delegation of chiefs out to LA to learn. We sent fire department executives all over the world thanks to our FDNY Foundation to study

1:12:19and learn about what's happening. We're not going to have forest fires the way California does, but last summer we had some very significant brush fires in Prospect Park, in Inwood Park, in Upper Manhattan. I mean, very significant. We have to learn and adapt and even with that, the bunker gear that our firefighters wear is structural fire bunker gear. When we're in the woods fighting a brush fire in a park, maybe we shouldn't be in 80 pounds of bunker gear. Maybe we shouldn't use the type of hoses we use to bring up into high-rise buildings to fight forest fires. How about apparatus? We need smaller, more nimble apparatus to get into parks where fire trucks just can't drive around. You know, unless it's central park, we can stay on the main road.

1:13:21But as you get through into some of the areas, it's complicated. And they're not a lot of fire hydrants in these parks. And so we've got to bring water to it. So, everything has changed. Everything has changed. But we will never forget. And that's the key. And everything is modern, sophisticated, lots and lots of training. But everything we do every single day, we remember those who came before us and who made the ultimate sacrifice. And I assume when you join the fire department, you have to take some sort of an oath. And do you think just as much these kids or men or women are all ready to step into that fire or that major crisis if it happens again? Absolutely. And you saw it the other night. You know, an active shooter and a high-rise building. You've got firefighters, amtis and paramedics in full ballistic, flat jackets.

1:14:27Saying, let me in there. I want to get in there. So if you've ever furnished a restaurant, hotel or an office, you know the trail. Five vendors, five invoices, five delivery windows. But there's a better way to do this. Creighton Barrel Contract is a business to business program that covers three brands. Creighton Barrel, CB2 and Creighton Kids with one account, one order, one delivery. They've got durable plates and glasses, contract grade furniture, and lighting that looks custom that's built for the wear of busy space actually takes. And the best part is you're not doing it alone. A dedicated rep handles your project end to end. From volume orders to design curation, plus members get 20% off, tax exempt checkout, and flexible payment with no minimums. Learn more at Creightonbarrel.com slash podcast. That's Creightonbarrel.com slash podcast.