Reiner, D4vd, Duggar: Behavioral Analysis of Three Active Cases

0:00This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Wake up, San Francisco. I'm Danny Tanner. Welcome to the show today. Happy new week, everybody. Jake Reiner. We're going to be talking about the Reiner situation here. First your thoughts. We'd love for you to weigh in out there on the comment section. Jake Reiner wrote about waking up every morning and having to convince himself it wasn't a dream. He put out a new piece this week. It's the first time he's spoken publicly on his sub stack. The the articles is called Mom and Dad. He wrote about being robbed of his parents at his wedding of grandchildren. They'll never hold meanwhile reports say the brother accused of taking all of that from him is allegedly plotting a revenge tell all from his jail cell not to seek justice not to take responsibility but reportedly to settle scores with the very people who spent years trying to save him.

1:03So when a family pours everything into someone dangerous and loses everything because of it, at what point does the person left standing get to stop carrying the weight of someone else's destruction? That is what we are getting into in our first segment this morning. Robyn Drake, Retired FBI Special Agent Chief of the Counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. My co-host with us is always good morning. Happy Monday. What a busy weekend. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. With everything going on with everything we're covering. And then in between all that, you know, the assassination intent or anything, Tony and I are going back and forth watching more of our cult specials on TV. It all comes up to, I mean, everything just comes down to really unhealthy minds. That's where we end up with everybody. It's the same time though. It helps you appreciate what you do have. And every time you watch and absorb and digest what's going on in the world around you, it gives you context to see what is healthy, what's unhealthy,

2:08so you know what to attach yourself with, who to interact with and know what to tolerate or not tolerate in your life. I think that's one of the greatest things about doing what we do is we give some recognition for everyone tuning in to what's right, what's not right when it comes to who should who should we have in our lives and what we should do about it. Yeah, yeah, 1000%. We're taking your questions on a sub-stack YouTube Facebook extra if you're watching us live. We also have several of your questions that you've dropped on our videos over the last week or two. We're going to try and get to a handful of those here as we work through this live today. But please do, please do drop them. All right, let's just start with this one. The first one. It's something I think a lot of people have thought about when they've they've looked at this case. It says, I keep thinking about that smirk at the arrangement, speaking about Nick Reiner when he was in court. This is that you rob and you study people for a living. What does a guy who reportedly can't process why he's in jail, but still wants to write a revenge book actually look like from a behavioral standpoint,

3:12because those two things don't go together in my head. Danielle and Instagram asks that question. I keep things as simple as possible on this. I'm not the lawyer. I'm not not licensed psychotherapist, like our great Shavon is, so I just break it down right there. That is one broken brain. It's really comes down to that. It is a sick MFR. It really is. And there's no, I don't think there's any fix in it. And I know this comes up with another questions later. Medications that they keep kept trying with him and are continue to try with him are band aids for the underlying broken brain. It is an unfixable brain in that head. And so I just think it comes down to that. There's no reasoning with it. There's no, there's no having it shift. I mean, we haven't seen it yet. Why would we see a shift in his behavior pattern? Remember, pass his prologue with a lot of people. And even though we all learn and we're not the same people today as we were yesterday, you can kind of see those arcs, those trajectories. It's why I always go to behavior arcs and life arcs with people because people are not going to have these major shifts out of that unless there's

4:17some event that they have this a-ha epiphany. And even with an a-ha epiphany, that rudder starts shifting slightly. It's not like today I'm a horrible human being that is a wound collecting victimizing person with a broken brain to tomorrow. I have this epiphany. And in other words, it's not a a scrooge moment from Christmas Carol where he has three dreams in the middle of the night and wakes up fixed in the morning. It doesn't happen. Yeah. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen for many people ever. It needs to, though, doesn't it? Yeah, wouldn't that be great if like that that story actually worked out and people learned from their horrible mistakes of being massive narcissists their whole life and something that wake up one morning and like, ah, I'm better. It's a fascinating thing too. So we can look at patterns, behavior of cross society, cross everything to really understand what we can reasonably expect in every situation. Does anyone watching, listening, tuning in? Does anyone ever know somewhere in their life that went from zero to a hundred went from completely broken to the next day they woke up

5:20full accountability and fixed. The closest you'll come is to like a drug addict alcoholic or something like that that has their rock bottom and they make the decision that they are broken and they're going to save their own lives by going to meetings, getting clean, going to detox. And then the rudder shifts and they stop consuming the horrible things that are destroying them and they start the first step on their journey to come out of it and it doesn't go from zero to I get it. It goes from zero to the first step, the second step and it's days, weeks, months, and years to crawl yourself up out of that mess you created yourself into being a functioning, more healthy human being that can have a reasonable expectation of a great relationship with another human being. But for Nick Reiner, ain't happening. I mean, how many times do you hit rock bottom and only to be saved and coddled by others? Well, I guess maybe that is the question I think that some people have is has he ever really truly hit rock bottom? I mean, there are stories

6:22where he was homeless, he's talked about it, but they aren't like there are not stretches of homelessness. I think that a lot of people who are homeless experience like he always kind of had a safety net to kind of go back on it. It's like homeless light tried it out for a little bit was like this is a bit much for me and then wondered back to the shelter of his parents and those who who could essentially keep him from ever hitting rock bottom and drugs were involved in in much of Nick Reiner's existence. What's scariest to me about people like Nick Reiner and people not like Nick Reiner, but still have the same sort of pathology and all that is the folks with the drug addiction and things of that nature, sometimes like you were saying, if they can get themselves cleaned up, if they can they can get on a good path, there can be some paths to to redemption. What's more scary that folks where drugs are not involved at all and this is just

7:25how they are because you like you like you remove some of that and the the weight that the drugs are having on the brain and like suddenly things can clear up a bit when it's like this is just your normal mode of thinking all the time that's even scarier and I feel like like obviously drugs are a big part of the story with Nick Reiner, but I think even you take the drugs out of the equation with Nick Reiner because there were moments of sobriety here and he was still a very broken person and still very much someone who didn't seem to ever truly take the accountability for his actions that we're right now. He's in isolation, eating crappy food, in jail, no drugs involved anymore. And he's still the victim in his own mind. What other bottom can you hit except death? You know I think he's addicted to bouncing on the bottom. He just loves dwelling there. He loves I mean think about this besides that broken brain which I think is unfixable because of people they paid a lot of money and tried to fix it ain't fixed yet.

8:29Why does continue? He's addicted to being the victim. He loves it. He's thriving in it otherwise why would you continue it unless you're incapable of moving out of it because your brain is so chemical imbalances, malformations, whatever it is up there that people like Shavon love to diagnose and can diagnose much more effectively. But again if they could diagnose it so well they would have fixed it or made attempts to fix it and just hasn't worked. Who knows? But it's working. I mean recognizing the problem doesn't mean you're fixing the problem. You know you can go there's a giant hole in the side of the Titanic and it's sinking. Well I mean yes well if we got it into dry dock we could cover that up with new metal and make it float. It's already sinking. It's in the middle of the ocean just knowing that that is what would be the fix doesn't mean you can implement it and I think that's very true with some people including Nick Reiner. Another question we have here Jake said he'd trade this is Jake Reiner Nick's brother said he'd trade every Dodger game in every Broadway show just to talk to his

9:30parents one more hour in that and I highly recommend reading it on Substack I I restacked his post so you can find it on ours. Just the link is in the description for Substack. It's a really I mean heartfelt piece about his parents I was talking about all those memories and everything that he shared with them. How do you even begin to grieve people you lost to violence from the person who allegedly took them is your own brother and he's still finding ways to hurt you from inside the cell that's the question from Rachel on Facebook. You know I don't know I think everyone does it differently to me I mean I've seen this in other cases and I think I would do it in my own life you just have to cut them off I mean he's not a yeah that's not your brother that's that's something inhuman in there it's just there's just I and I don't know how it looks like he was this way a very long time but that's not your brother that's not a human being that's someone that's something that is a toxic cancer in your life and you just have to treat it like

10:37that you've got to cut it out you know some people and we see this with the cult we saw it with Amy Dodger when we interviewed her and other family members we want to give a lot of grace to family but I always ask myself why you know I mean seriously you can really see some really unhealthy toxic things and if you keep associating with it again it's not there's a choice it's not right or wrong or better or worse I can just tell you the the impact if you keep associating with it or keep allowing it to infect your brain I didn't say infect your brain because that's exactly what it's taken up that green matter it's taken up bandwidth it's taken up space you know if you just regarded as a as a broken tool that is no longer servicing me you got to cut it out because I tell you what he's not viewing him as his brother he's not viewing him as anything but a tool that he can try to manipulate for his own gain for his own pleasure because the only pleasure Nick Reiner is getting again pure conjecture at this point is inflicting continually to afflict pain and discomfort on others because what has he done his entire life inflict pain to discomfort on others he seems

11:40to enjoy it otherwise he wouldn't do it anymore why is he getting it broken brain whatever but it's we we allow people to infect us when we accept them still in our lives just cut that crap out man and I'm sorry for him hugely and I know it's tough for family members people to do that but if you keep accepting unhealthy in your life it's going to be painful unless you have the ability to at least sit back and as I say multiple times a day watch a show I can be very close to people close proximity I can listen to words I can have great conversations but because I assess who they are what they stand for and all these myriad of things their words don't have impact on me because that's their thoughts their beliefs their their position on life and it'll just roll right over me like water no but now if someone I do feel close to I mean like you Tony Todd our crew here my wife my family my kids what they say what their opinion matters very deeply to me I cannot

12:42actually take an action in my life without one of these these close people in my life being part of it and if you're part of my very tight circle it's tight and there's a huge bar of good healthy relationships that you have to meet to be there but other than that I enjoy the show people got great words some have horrible words I take it all in and assess it and then it rolls right over like water hard to do takes a lot of reps but in order to preserve yourself because you can't be there for others if you allow people like that to infect your life do you think that no and this is me the we're in an interesting place right now in in in in the you know span of human history the whole no contact thing with your family that wasn't even I mean just 20 30 years ago it was like what oh my god who would do that and and if you go further back you can kind of understand why people weren't doing that it was out of necessity it was more so like survival it didn't matter if you had some narcissistic asshole person in your family if you needed them to survive you needed

13:46them survive and you had to figure out a way to to make everybody while the cogs and the wheel work together even if some weren't we're not in a world like that anymore we don't need all the cogs in this wheel to function to survive if you have a family member that's just a bad apple or whatever you want to call them fight out evil you don't need them you don't have to keep absorbing them but I don't know that we've mentally caught up to that reality yet I feel like we're getting there I think it's interesting oh we're just at a piece on this a multi piece on this about families going no contact and what that means and why people are doing that because there's a huge percentage of people that are doing it far more than ever having the past with family members that have been toxic people that have have decided to stop accepting on healthy yeah that is is this is this just something do you think we're going to get better at this as time goes on because it's not required and we're not I think a lot of people stay by unhealthy out of

14:46shame and and and by out of guilt but but guilt and shame that are I think very much misplaced that aren't necessarily accurate to the situation but because we're told we should feel guilty or shameful for for telling an unhealthy family member to go away and go over there I feel like that dynamic is shifting I do too and I'm very excited about it yeah we are genetically and biologically coded for group tribal mentality it's part like you said it's part of our survival ancient tribal man if you didn't belong to the closeness society close in a group close in family the chances of you being able to procreate and pass on your genetic coding was slim to none so we're coded to to want to unconditionally accept and believe in and be around that close family structure but to your point because society is so evolved with community with government with businesses with organizations the mechanisms for survival are in place outside of family now

15:48family is a great thing to have if it's healthy what I really like about this is that and Amy Dougher talked about it when we on chat with her yeah breaking the toxic cycle it's it's breaking the cycle internally of the trauma response family that's constantly because I don't know the percentage of very high things 85 the 95% of child as abusers come from a place where they were introduced to it at a young age you the biophamily member someone close to that family so that's where you break the trauma cycle when you break that trauma cycle with healthy relationships you have distanced yourself from that original family and then what are you doing you're lining with new family you're lining with a new spouse with a healthier spouse and so then you can recollect the family and then family can be close again because you broke the trauma cycle so I think it's taking families that were broken for generational trauma breaking it because it takes courage it takes strength and it takes a lot of effort in bravery to have to courage to break that trauma cycle that

16:53generational trauma cycle and then start a new cycle with a new family and then we can actually go back to those so those great wonderful family values what allows to do what feel safe feel seen feel heard and be valued by others but when you're in that toxic generational cycle it doesn't happen and I think that's what people are starting to do they're starting to have to courage because you know as detrimental as social media can be and and and all this online stuff we have at the same time it's able to get messages out like the the people like the Jill Duggers and the Amy Dugger Kings that were able to escape the trauma cycle and you know and people that are able to escape escape FDLS and even in this situation brothers that are able to break from toxic other brothers that have destroyed families that have murdered their parents you know break that cycle get out move on and I think that's what's going to be hopefully a resurgence using what could be negative and use it for positive I agree I think that that is it's a very healthy way of of looking at things in a way that's that essentially has been

17:59shunned I think in society for a long time you don't think that way that you don't even entertain this idea right when in reality that's that's the way to to freedom if you want yeah just don't do crazy make that your policy in life don't do crazy keep them out and and and don't be afraid to say no I'm done I mean it feels like a lot of life almost I don't know in in some ways of looking at it some generations it's almost like how long have you known these people it's life is not a race and it's not a contest of how long have you had certain people in your life because at the end today there's no prize for having toxic people in your life until you're dead you're going to be much more happier by the time death comes if you had exchanged some of those toxic people for healthy people there's only so much bandwidth you have to give and take out there why not spend it with healthy people not the unhealthy so I'm going to give everyone and I've read I can't remember what exact book that I read desire I read so many books but here is exactly

19:03the win for life if you want to everyone is pursuing a successful life a happy life and it's easy to get caught up in the materialism of the world and have someone else to find for you what success is with monetary gain prestige title accolades all the things that you didn't come into the world with and you're not leaving with so how do you you cannot measure success by those things there's only really one thing one thing alone I believe you can measure success in and that is how you remember to type a person you are do you want to be remembered as this great professional or you want to remember as someone that couldn't that lit up a room when you came around that corner is always there for someone else and most importantly the greatest gift you can give yourself and give others the only thing you'll leave is what you taught others about how to treat others how to be present for them how to be kind how to have grace how to do all these things that help others have healthy strong relationships that is what success is that's what the life win is what are you going to

20:04do to inspire other people to live a healthier life so they can pass it on generation into the people in their lives that is what's going to move that's what's going to move our species forward beyond what it is now with constantly this this this this this and why is it this this this this because we are constantly caught up in these toxic things it doesn't matter you can't take in this crap with you so focus on those relationships be that beacon that people want to gravitate to and then to pass on those skills that always matter in your life and those what those new family structures there I'm done my soapbox for the day right so if you don't want more of this this this this this get more that that that that that that by this this this this this this book right here you like that transition right there wasn't that fun it's it's not all about me exactly it's Robin's latest book and it's available wherever books are sold go and check that out let's move over to another topic here another case the autopsy is out the charges are filed and what came out of that courtroom on the one year anniversary of the last day of Celeste Reves Hernandez was seen alive

21:09it's worse than most people were prepared for prosecutors say they've got 40 terabytes of evidence a wiretap nobody knew about three separate grand juries and exploitation material found directly on his phone his defense team response speed it up step on the gas show us everything and the question that won't leave me alone the one that I think you might be sitting with two is what were all the adults doing for 12 months between when this child vanished and when someone finally smelled something wrong in a tow yard your questions on substack on youtube drop them we're gonna try and get through them as we we look at the the David case let's start here Robin his lawyers are demanding a faster hearing strategy some people wave the right to speedy some are like let's step on the gas for different reasons 40 terabytes they haven't apparently seen yet what do they know that we don't that they're wanting this to move really fast

22:13you know this is such a bob question it is I mean it is but I'm curious to get your conjecture on yeah so there's a lot of I looked up there's a lot of legal reasons for this that it's it's definitely unprecedented typically they don't do this fast they don't want to move this fast but there's one theory that I kind of have in my mind again you place yourself in that situation and so I'm going to answer it from a behavioral standpoint not from a bob mara legal stand for or a good friend Eric on the prosecution side as well I think there's so much uh-ohs that have just happened with the release of the autopsy result and the terabytes and what we're seeing for um child's uh s things on his cell phone and things like that the faster they move the less that's known in the media I think it's really about trying to negate or at least lessen the huge negative impact or conjecture and all these things that are coming out so let's move fast before people see even more I really think that's part of it because there is with that much

23:17and think about that terabytes of information and none of it is any good none of it's going to be to his benefit so if you want to not give people time to digest that much data let's quickly move so you don't get to see that much data and let's try to get this thing moving that's what I'm thinking yeah I mean again we don't have not diagnosing immunisensal proven guilty in our opinion blah blah blah allegedly put that in front of everything um the narcissist don't like their mask slipping and and if David is a narcissist which it kind of appears that he may be he seems to have some of the traits um the last thing they they want is exposure and and I mean this is why we've seen so many cases where we get right up to trial and they're professing their innocence right up in the life and suddenly it's like oh guess what it's show time here comes a spotlight it's about to shift on to you I did it shut the show shut the show down oh yeah rex human rex here man Brian coberger I mean you see it in a lot of cases like that control control control

24:211000% and if that's and and they will exercise any any monochrome of control that they can get because that's big to them that's all they have left so it's going to be a big deal and they're going to go on at full force so I'm thinking you're right I think that's probably some level of this the less that can just linger out there into the ether the better but at the end of the day here I mean sorry the shit's going to linger out there forever this is part of the record and I think as soon as I think part of the strategy to again we're going to make our list for Bob tomorrow yeah I think part of the strategy here could also be for the defense to get all the the information for discover as fast as they can before the media gets it so they can make their determination as fast as possible and put a plea to plead on deal together I think you know I know Bob said it last week in the week week before as well I'm I'm leaning on with this much information with this many bad things going on I I can't imagine it going to trial I mean and again but you never

25:21know on these things but but there's so much information it looks like and I think in order for to keep control the narrative to actually have any potential for a plea deal of any of any site I think that's why I think they just want to move to that as fast as possible so they can actually have a good choice amount how to do it yeah I mean I feel like where we're going to go here is and this is just my non legal expertise my legal expertise comes from talking to Bob a lot right I know we're checking her in her bomb yeah you know so that's what that my gut on it is we're looking at a situation here where death could possibly be on the table yeah and and I think that might be the only that's the only you know piece that that he has on the board to play with anymore is okay plead out and we're not going to try you for the death penalty yep and you're going to be gone forever but at least you won't die that's right that's

26:21the route I'm going to yeah that's why you and I are aligned but we'll salt Bob with it tomorrow okay I'd question for you guys I was thinking about that yeah Todd will he you know it seems like there's some dark stuff in this kid's mind right yeah would he enjoy the death penalty oh god like like the process like like being on death row like yeah like going for the ride essentially because that's a long stretch right that's a long stretch of time well that's like his music videos right exactly yeah it's a really interesting question um it's really interesting because I mean you know he's going to be creating art around all these things because he's all about the dark imagery so he's going to be using something with it um I really I'd be really curious about and again now we're shift on to Shavon on on Wednesday I wonder about his because people like this have a lot of suicidal idealization a lot of times too I'd say if he had a suicidal idealization

27:23he might be willing to go down that route but if he but if he sees himself as the martyred artist behind bars I think it also be interesting too is is there son of sam law where he's being convicted because he could really profit handsomely behind I mean think about the following he has I think there is I mean it's California I mean there's there is some whether it's called son of sam there I don't know but there's something in place right so he can't profit from yeah they can't take the proceeds from anything so I think all those things are what the defense is going to weigh in on that but really good insight and in question Todd I mean I mean I mean we kind of thought that way about Cobra a little bit too like he's is he enjoying the ride here is this part of what he wanted but he didn't go for the whole trial that would be part of the ride I would think if you if you did this you'd want to go on but I don't know I mean they they can kind of pick and choose where they want to use their fast pass if you will and I and that'll definitely play in you know so if he wants to go full trial no one he's going to get convicted anyway again it's good I was just

28:26keep coming back to tell us if using a real life for all their song lyrics you know and he's doing the same thing I mean he's using his real life his dual horrendously dark evil life for his art and so being going through the trial so I think if he wants to not share with the world the things he did and things he did to others um he would control it and plea out but if he's proud of it if he thinks it's part of his narrative of how he's living his life he wants to expose so I think I think the plea if he pleads or not will be really telling and all that I think this is an interesting question here and I want to I want to give a quick answer before I toss it to you after I read it they say this is from Steph via something or is it this is from email they said financial gain as a special circumstances they're saying he allegedly ended a child's life to protect a music career this is a line that gets me how does a person get that far gone and I think a lot of

29:26people are wondering that how do you how are you that far gone how do you get that far gone it's hard to get that far gone if you were never there to begin with and and I think that that's that's something that we forget especially with some of these cases where they're this young I mean I know he's like like 21 now or something this 19 is earlier so he was still a damn kid he wasn't he wasn't there you can't get gone if you were never there if you've just developed into this and and you've had an ecosystem that has allowed you to become this you were never gone you're just functioning as you've been essentially bred as you've been raised as you've been conditioned if you will by your thinking by your surroundings you know by by a lot of different things I don't know that some of these people were ever there to get gone I don't know your thoughts yeah I don't think he was ever there either so so think about so let's do our thought experiment right here so here's someone that had a lot of early success before the prefrontal cortex fully

30:33formed before the age of 24 which means we're highly emotionally impulsive we're not really clear thinkers on things and he had zero guardrails even though he comes from apparently a religious family he didn't appear to have any guardrails whatsoever about what he could or couldn't do he had all the wealth he needed to do to do whatever he wanted to do he attracted more nutters around them all before the prefrontal cortexes and lobes are fully formed so they're all completely back shit crazy and no guardrails and then you have proclivity for doing horrendous things to underage people yeah it was never there that I don't think there was a semblance of healthy thoughts that was in his life to that point before we saw that or started hearing some discovery again I was you know admittedly I was on the camp this human being couldn't possibly have done anything horrendous it must have been a mistake cover up again prefrontal cortex not fully formed you have a panic escalation try to do something because you mistaken whether it's drug overdose

31:34or doing stupid party whatever it was and she died accidentally nope I don't think that I I'm all on board with just broken from the beginning no guardrails and bad crap really happened there is a question here in the comments I wanted to go back to it's about Celeste parents I just did even more research on them too about David and Celeste families yeah this is this is one and I'm not I'm not going down the road that they were were paid or anything like that but says yes so stranger Celeste parents she knew where she was that's in it we don't know for sure but they they listed her as missing but it does seem a lot of people knew where the hell she was she wasn't like missing in like the sense of she's on the side of a milk carton oh my gosh where did she go like she was coming and going from the family dynamics here pretty much up towards the end right maybe not in the trunk or a tessa they they let their little girl essentially live

32:36with a grown man why didn't they call the cops getting money maybe that's the question and I'm saying that I'm not insinuating that I think it's a fair question to ask I think all that needs to be looked into and I hope they already have but yeah I'm not I'm not in the camp here of just giving Celeste parents a free pass here either I know they're grieving I know this is her renders I cannot imagine going through it but there is responsibility to be had when you're a parent of a 13 year old girl she's not an adult and sometimes you have to be a parent I don't give a flying fuck how much you're working how much you have to do this how much you have to do that your number one priority is your child and clearly by seeing the way the dynamics of this family worked that child was not the number one priority in my opinion your thoughts I agree at the same time I'm this part confuses me believe they're not um I mean I got you know I keep all my you can see it I keep all my research and I yeah literally before we came on I

33:36researched her parents again what they did what they didn't do I see the comments right here the PI's evidence that her family knew where she was okay maybe there's so much that you and I wouldn't do but yeah but I'm gonna I'm gonna pull the Bob Mata on this one where okay we don't know them we don't and so I I don't want to cast shade if they did do all what I've read I mean if they're it says here that they weren't contact with police a lot trying to find her but at the same time to everyone else's point everyone else seem to know where she was she's showing up on security camera footage she's showing up on yeah I mean it's not again she's not milk carton missing I don't I don't get it I mean that's what I mean I don't get it I just so what you do yeah what I what here's what I would expect I would expect if they didn't give a rat's ass that there'd be one replace one police report and not another but we have multiples but not multiples with tons of follow up it looks like I mean just like see what I mean it's just and they're and I think they gave a rat's ass to a certain extent yeah not so I guess it's you know it's it's kind of like

34:40it's kind of like being on the spectrum I think you know you have you and me and all our followers obviously getting a rat's ass which is way up here and then you have their family which wasn't down at zero but maybe like right around three on a scale of one to ten the no the the other area of this that I don't have the answer to that I think would tell us a lot about it is and I'm just gonna be very blunt about it she was a missing brown girl and we know how that works in a lot of cases where if she's a missing white blonde girl whoa well there you go you're you know headline story for Ashley Banfield but on something like this and I'm not casting dispersions and Ashley Banfield I'm just saying that's you know how that sort of shit works right in terms of where attention seems to go and and even deeper what people click on people always ask why did they only cover this why don't they cover that because guess what the public's interest if we put out two different videos tomorrow one was about this one was about that and I'm gonna

35:43say I really hope this one over here that's much worse about the little brown girl gets a lot more attention guess what's gonna get more attention not that one and that's not me that's not you that's society that's the world doing what they do making bad choices and not prioritizing every human as being on the same playing field and that shitty but it is it is the world we live in but I do wonder how much of that played into this in terms of the police response the police investigation before you got the rest of the world with talking about this the podcasting the the news coverage of all of that when she was missing for all of that time before this murder took place we didn't hear about it we didn't really know this little girl was missing that there was a connection to this this star none of that was a story I'm kind of thinking it might have been if there was a little blonde white girl that had been hanging out with the music artist and suddenly she's missing that probably would have been a story but for whatever reason it wasn't

36:49and I question and I again I don't know the answer to this but I do wonder what the response was from authorities of like I should just run away and there was just being handled like they do the other hundreds of thousands of runaway cases of well we hope she shows back up good luck so I definitely think that was part of it we've seen it in too many cases for it to not be part of but I think it's I think it's one of a couple data points probably that led to this being the way it was so you have that as a as a data point then I think also when you have private investigators over and you have people knowing where she is and when whether the family knew directly or a one degree separation told the family well she's hanging out with this guy David who's this music guy's got a lot of money and if you've got a chaotic life at home and you're dealing with a lot of chaos and trauma and you know that one of your kids is not here but she's seen I hear from the grapevine she's fine you can rationalize not doing more about it again pure conjecture pure pure pure hypothesis but when you put all these things together cops aren't paying attention to it

37:54because it's it's it is what it is yeah then you have no pressing from the parents because and also we don't know what the cops knew about where she was or not because they could have said the same thing they said well if she's over here we have this because remember everyone's always working with bandwidth so here you have thousands of missing kids claimed thousands and you happen to know that the ones the majority of the ones are going missing they're about to be trafficked and then you have one that's reported missing but we know she's overshared with this dude where with limited bandwidth as as a law enforcement professional where you're going to focus where's the family going to pursue what I mean so it's they they I believe that probably too many people thought she was safe where she was when she actually wasn't so a lot of looking back and could have should have would have it feels like in this case your thoughts in the comments section on sub-stack and in YouTube I don't know I'm I'm willing to hear anything in this case about

38:55how all these things worked I do not know the answers to these questions but I think they need to be asked about the responsibility and what roles people were playing at what time in Celeste's life or what they were not playing a role in where they should have been these are fair questions and I'm still more on his parents all of well every damn one of them every damn one of those all underage yeah well they were yeah I mean David was nine at a time he was yes I know and I know legally we got that that whole 18 year old thing but anyway anyone all under the age of 24 I think is an underage more I agree I agree yeah potentially mentally to be there as a responsible parent yes yes but again there's there's there's this is a bad recipe the whole damn thing is a bad recipe yeah young fame suddenly falling into money fall you know the shelter the religiosity the situation of Celeste I mean they're everything is a bad the whole damn recipe is shit and when

39:55you mix all that together you get something like this and and I think that's where we're at again your thoughts you thoughts in the comments section and sub-stack and YouTube as we continue to work our way through it hey here's another fun topic I say it facetiously come home to the doggers oh my god the things nightmares are made out of the doggers a child allegedly hurt by someone who was supposed to be safe just carried it for years before she told anyone and now we're talking here weeks after the arrest the man who allegedly did this is back home out on bond living under restrictions he can't possibly follow without someone watching and nobody watching the family is fractured some are calling it evil some are calling it persecution and the people closest to the victim are reportedly starting over with nothing the legal system hasn't even gotten started yet but the choices people are making right now who they're standing with what they're saying

40:55and what they're not are already telling us everything you guys have a lot of opinions about this and there's a lot of very interesting reporting going on out there this is like the soap opera from hell and I try I mean there's there's the news element of it and then there's it gets into soap opera material literally and it's like I I see a lot of it this is going on around close to my ecosystem so it's I'm trying to like not dive too deep into the soap opera but it's hard not to sometimes I know you guys are having a lot of questions too Joseph is home right now he's a bonded out bond conditions saying no unsupervised contact with miners he has four kids under eight how does that work Karen via Facebook well he's not with their their kids right now the kids and they're not with mom either the kids are in protective custody and the protective custody ain't family either which I think to me that says a lot a lot of times when kids going to protective custody they're going to look for family members they're going to look for oh this be a good safe place to put them that's not where they went that's not where they

42:00went and if if my math is correct there's there's 19 options as to where the or more as to where those kids could have went but they went to somewhere else somewhere within the system what does that say to you about what's going on here with this case I think there's a lot of leakage where law enforcement has taken a close look at everything going on here and so in child protective services is obviously seen in as well so for some reason that they're seeing they don't trust anyone that family to have these kids so that's a good sign for maybe their inch in their way towards justice maybe we'll see and you know what's so really shame is that we know that there are a few that escaped that seem to us especially since we interviewed Amy and we read Jill's book and he was close to Jill too that because I don't like to I don't like children in the system just because you haven't seen good cases there either now you really wish and you know and Amy said on our show that she would be more than happy to pitch in she's offered

43:01as well so I'm getting there's a lot of drama there's a lot of like you said soap opera stuff going on I like that note that they're not still in the toxic system but the same time though they can't be feeling too good those are four little babies that just are really hugely confused right now and probably scared too because they've been they've been they've been thrown into thinking one thing about the system they live in and now because we saw this in all specials we watched whether it's LDS or IBLP that they're so indoctrinated that anything outside of that system that doesn't exactly operate the way you know grandpa Jim Bob told him it's evil it's horrible I'm falling outside the umbrella so it's got to be a lot of fear in their hearts as well I yeah I mean I'm not pro let's throw them to the system either if there's a good family member that can take care that's usually your best option but I think it's interesting if this is in fact how it's all playing out again conjecture our opinion in my opinion allegedly to everything we're talking about but it's it's it's it's very interesting that that seems to be the dynamic

44:07again if that's accurate as to where it's all playing out right now I mean it seems to say quite a bit here's another one it says he allegedly confessed on a call apparently he had no idea he was being recorded the twice basically and then his lawyer turns around and they plead not guilty does that not guilty plea have any real shot or is it just about buying time good question for Bob I don't know where it leads I mean I mean everybody it seems most people do plead not guilty initially and it usually ends up going to some sort of a plea deal of some sort rather than just straight to guilty it's it's another you know it's a situation where words don't mean what they mean in in some cases especially in the legal system you know or or it's just utterly delusional and and he believes under his way of thinking and reasoning in his mind that he's not he's not guilty of these crimes for whatever reason he's been absolved of them by God or I don't know I don't

45:10know what the hell was going on up there to say not guilty when you've allegedly already admitted to this other than this is just to run the clock down a bit while we work on the the deal over here on the side it's really interesting and what popped in my mind as we started talking about this just now Tony is Jim Bob's letter to Joe behind bars and it was very very pragmatic and very law like like he was very saying hey bad things are happened again he was he was diminishing the words and of the accusation everything but it's very much hey here's a law you're going to be going away from a long time most likely so you can see that they're they're accepting of what the fate will be legally but from everything we've seen studied and watched for this family for so long now that doesn't seem to matter nearly as much them as their faith and their IBLP methodology with hey we're all going to do bad things we're not going to stir up the brethren all you have to do

46:12to be redeemed is to admit your sin you'll be redeemed because that's the most important thing and now you can have a ministry and you know what ministries more important because that's the way you get into heaven the only way you get into heaven is to be redeemed have a ministry and have lots of kids this legal stuff doesn't mean anything because you can do and in their mindset from what we understand from studying IBLP you can literally do anything if you seek forgiveness it has to be given if you're seeking forgiveness and you have to be redeemed and that's all you've got to do and have kids and you're going to heaven which they think is all more important than going to jail and I think in an important interesting distinction there too is it and the forgiveness it doesn't have to come from your victims it says to come no no no no no no the victims mean nothing nothing they're not even the damn equation it's like children are quivers as long as you as long as you go and speak to sky daddy and in sky daddy tells you specifically you're forgiven or you just this is what the forum says it says I mean if you ask for forgiveness you will be

47:16forgiven if you believe and besides yeah and besides the the forgiven by the victims well the victims are shamed into forgiving them because in order to keep under the umbrella you have to show forgiveness then there yeah then they're in the wrong under the you see how stupidly cyclical cyclical this is you have to forgive heinous acts by anyone or you're going to fall inside the umbrella and not go to heaven and burn in hell that's a belief system that believes as self fulfilling prophecy of creating narcissistic s freaks towards children exactly one thousand percent there and there's I just did a piece this morning um and I I was addressing Joseph directly in it because he some of those jail phone calls which are horrific to listen to they're they're just so delusional in their nature of some sort of Kendra I mean all you do is is listen to that poor girl being basically tortured and she has no idea she's being tortured no yeah it's it's it's it's yeah

48:18I mean it's painful she's like I'm getting an IV I can I'm not eating I'm can barely walk and like I'm reading Ruth about how I'm redeemed is basically yeah read some songs you know the transfusion today yeah who cares stuck it up read more songs you'll feel better it's like it's like it's it's it's it's spousal abuse in my opinion just on like as blatant as you can get actually watch trauma bonding life listen to it she she's getting she's talking it is because she's talking about horrendous she is and at the very end she's do you love me well yes I do oh thank you for loving me there is there's the one bomb and trauma trauma trauma trauma little bomb yeah because that there that was a big tell on that we're at the end she's like do you she's asking if he loves her he abused children and she's asking if he loves her you know and this this is why you know I said on the piece this morning that I'll be dropping here tomorrow sometimes you got a fight fire with fire and since he's speaking all biblically I spoke all biblically

49:21right back in him and I'm going with the Matthew chapter about putting the millstone around the child that predator's neck and dropping him in the sea he skipped that part he went right to Ruth and went right to their redemption not the part of Jesus talking about let's put the millstone and kick you off the boat I lost that one better I think it's more applicable it's actionable it seems like it could be effective it would solve a lot of problems I say let's go get a boat this weekend everybody can go out on it you know have a couple beverages and there you go millstone see you later Joe you know I'm I'm giving a lot of credit to Amy doger king on her book holy disruptor in this one she starts out the entire book on the first chapter countering all of gym bobs and iblp's doctrine with other other citations from the bible that totally debunk everything that you stand for so she did a great job at that yeah she really did yeah yeah highly recommend if you've not seen our interview with the Amy the conversation it is up here on our channels go and check it out just more to come very likely by the way too great so it should be yeah my god

50:28all right your thoughts in the the comments section on sub stack and YouTube we'd love to hear them we'll try and get to them I'll try and answer them online or in a future episode of the program here love for you guys to weigh and press subscribe wherever you're getting podcasts so you don't miss any episodes robins latest book it's not all about me there you go it's worth reading Joseph this would be a good one for you while you're on house arrest you know while you're sitting there and looking for something to do all right until next time for Todd for Robin I'm Tony Bruce we'll talk again real soon want more on this case and others then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony bruski and the hidden killers podcast