REAL: The Nuggets CAN Have A Top 10 Defense | Here is How They Do It

0:00This is the Lockdown Podcast Network celebrating 10 years of your team every day. This is Jake from Lockdown. When the game is on the line, the best no end to pass. Because the right assist can change everything. And off the court, it's no different. That's where your State Farm agent comes in. Whether it's protecting your car, your home, or helping you prep for the unexpected, they'll help set you up with a game plan that works for you. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. And cover options are selected by the customer, availability and eligibility, vary by state. Thank you for making Lockdown your first listen every day. For your second listen, find the Lockdown NBA Podcast where there's no off season. West Matt and Hayes keep you up to date on contract negotiations, rumors, and everything you need to be the most informed NBA fan. Find Lockdown NBA on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day.

1:03Now, I don't know what's better. Get a chance to hang out with Matt Moore. Get a chance to talk ball with him, talk defense with him. Or who am I kidding? It's fantasy football time, y'all. This is the weekend of all the biggest drafts in the world. Matt, the NFL season starts next Wednesday. Everybody in here that's a true baller. Your fantasy football draft should be this weekend as all the lineups have been finalized preseason is done. Jermir Gibbs, MVP love, who is going to be the number one player in fantasy football. That is what this weekend's about. And we're going to talk about the different nuggets, but they should have been top 10 deepers next year. Y'all know what time it is. Swipe up Matt Moore, this. It's locked on nuggets. You are locked on nuggets. Your daily Denver Nuggets podcast. Part of the locked on podcast network, your team every day.

2:07What's going on? Y'all welcome to locked on nuggets. This is your daily Denver Nuggets podcast. I'm money. I'll swipe a joint here with Matt Moore. And we are here to talk about true Denver Nuggets and the defense. Talk about what could they do to be yet again? A top 10 deepers. Yet again, a top 10 defense in the NBA. Do they have the scheme? Is it about effort? Is it about skill? Because Matt, I had a conversation on PC with Tara's Ross the other day. And T Ross had a very strong opinion on what makes somebody a good defender in the league. And it might be a little bit surprising, but how are you feeling today, brother? You're muted. I'm OK. I'm still not feeling great. I'm still recovering because of my lungs are absolute garbage. Since moving to Colorado, I am not built for the Alstead. I am not built different. It's been 10 years. I'm getting worse somehow, which is great. It's actually been God. This is going to be, oh my God.

3:08Next summer is going to be 15 years from here. Yeah, I'll say you've been covering the nuggets for a hell of. Yeah, this is going to be my 15th season. Yeah, that's it. Check it in a half. But yeah, excited to get into this with you. I love talking to you. I love talking to you, friends. And I have a lot of thoughts on this because I've done a lot of work on it. As a heads up, like I will, we'll talk in generalities today. I have a very large thing that I've been working on. Actually, I did like 10 minutes of narration, a video of like me breaking down the scheme of the Debra nuggets and I got into it and I was like, all right, let's edit this thing. Yeah. And they didn't pick up my mic at all. It just didn't. I knew all of that work from earlier this summer. But there will be more stuff coming for the everydayers club, which you can join at locked on nuggets, that's supercast.com. But we'll talk in generalities today about defense. I am really excited here. What Terrence Ross said, though. Yeah. So obviously NBA players, they have their own perspective on how things are done. And you know, T Ross, we talked about it. He was drafted in 2012. And one of the things he said, the NBA was so different because when he got into the league, they were still running double biggs for a lot of teams.

4:10You know, he played for the the Raptors. They obviously were playing versus Utah when they had like, you know, the big front court and what they were doing in a lot of teams. Memphis Grizzlies, you know, they were running the Z-bow Gassal lineups and all that. Now, the NBA is kind of back weird. Used to be in some ways that we are getting bigger front courts, chat, I-heart, A.G. Yokeish, Carl Anthony Towns with obviously now, you know, Andre Drummond, you know, Mitchell Robinson obviously last year. And then on top of that, like, there are multiple teams that I think are trying to find that obviously Wimby and whoever they put next to him, ideally is going to be somebody like to buy his hair or whatever who's at six foot eight. So you're finding more and more that what you need is size at the four spot, but you also need versatility. So the question is is Matt, the Nuggets had a top 10 defense at one point in time. They actually had a top three, three point percent is guarding team. And they actually had a top five room protection team per Dungston threes in

5:13two thousand twenty three twenty four. And they went on a stretch over like 40 games where they were like a top six, seven defense as well. Now, the nuggets are very famous for playing at the level with Yokeish, rotating behind him. And when they play versus team that have five out, they have done a lot of things at their best when they're pre switching, which is essentially the rotate from the corner you show and then you recover. And then Yokeish typically will get back into position versus a weaker, on ball dribbler or versus whoever that big might be for a close out. So we've seen Denver put together good defensive runs. We've seen Denver play good basketball over the course of months defensively. But the Nuggets haven't been there in a while. They've been around 21st, 17th. They've seemingly just kept getting worse defensively since the 2000 and 2223 playoffs, two thousand twenty three twenty four season and then in two thousand twenty four, twenty five and twenty five, twenty six seasons.

6:13So matter for you, somebody who has done this and thinks about this deeply, do you believe that the nuggets have the ability to get back into being a top 10 defense again at some point? No. No, they can't do it. I've maintained this since the end of the season. And I still believe it. The problem is that when you talk about this, it becomes a scapegoating thing. And it's not a scapegoating thing. It's about combinations. And here is the essential fundamental problem. You can't have a top 10 defense. If teams are able to force you into position where they can attack downhill against someone who can't provide resistance on the perimeter to deter and close off angles. And you don't have rim protection backing them. You can do it if you have a weak perimeter defender who can simply, I'm just going to move them this way every time and my guy's going to clean up.

7:15You can do it if you're like, I'm going to do the best I can. And we're going to force them into midrange jump shots and we're not going to let him get to the rim. You can do that. Even if your room protectors will a week. You can't do it if you have the inability to contain on the perimeter. To keep certain guys out of those positions. And you don't have rim protection because you can pivot and pin it on guys like that are supposed to be good defenders like Christian. But if you're running one for switch. Teams are always going to be like, well, I just rather attack Jamal. I just rather do that. They have that problem. They are exacerbated by another issue, which is and like Adam and said this after the season. And I understand how people feel about Adam and I'm telling you he's absolutely 100% right. Their problem was finishing possessions. That was their problem is that their base scheme would work for 20 seconds.

8:19They would force a wild pass. And then the last four seconds, they would fail. They would fail in perimeter contain in rotation to close out for perimeter containment in knowing personnel and in rim protection. And that fundamentally, I don't think you can hold up as a top 10 defense when you have Jamal and Nicola. I think you can get 10 to 15. I don't think you can get better 11 to 15. I don't think you can get better than 11th or 12th with Jamal and Nicola. So do you feel like, so when I talk to Terrence, one thing Terrence said he feels like a lot of defense is effort. It may be a lot of NBA players feel this in general because they feel like when you're out there and you're playing. There are schemes that you're committed to running defensively and there's different coverage is your growth throughout different players. But with each of those coverages, you have a responsibility within those assignments.

9:20And obviously, I think Luca was an example, not a great defender, but 2024 in the regular season. What's they got PJ Washington and what's they were able to kind of buff up their center rotation with Gafford. They also just had athletes, Derek Jones, Jr., Derek Alively, other players on the roster. They were really able to take some steps forward defensively and then they was able to maintain itself through the regular season and through a lot of the playoffs. Now Luca wasn't, you know, a right member of the blow by stats and all that stuff and the NBA finalists and all that. But that's not what he did. Like a lot of it was he was funneling to Derek and funneling to Gafford and that was helping them out a lot. For Denver, it's the equation at this point is in order to commit to a scheme that you feel like would be good enough. One of Jamal or one of Yoke just going to have to be all for four for you. And they're going to have to replace that position with a more traditional defensive player in order to execute some of these schemes you're looking at. So that's where again. So in order for them to actually be able to reach a defensive upside that is worthy of top 10, one of Murray or one of Yoke can't be on the floor.

10:23And one of those players needs to be substituted with a more traditional defensive player at that position. Yes, that is how I feel. So like you can put again, this is the thing is like, well, it's just if you put good defenders around him. Like all Yoke needs is if you put good defenders around them. One, my fundamental problem with that, it will help. But my problem with this is like, there's this idea that like, do you think Nikhil Alexander Walker never gets blown by? Do you think he that a guy never gets a step on him on a rotation? No, of course he does. Yeah, it happens to everybody. So what you're looking at is like, can you reduce the number of times that you have breakdowns? And then on the breakdowns, can you reduce the percentage of conversion? Right? It's the nuggets have a problem where you talked with the effort thing. I agree. But after talking to Andre Agadali years ago and talking to a lot of high level defenders, this to me is like the big thing is that people misunderstand. You say effort and they want to believe that it's how hard you run.

11:24No, it is mental. It is being locked into understanding. I need to watch the ball over here to see what's going on behind me. And understanding he's trying to get to this reversal. I have to stay closer or I got a sprint out here to make sure I recover. It's about being focused in your running to close out a guy. Do you know how many different ways there are to close out a guy? It's about knowing how to close out appropriately for your scheme, which is a big thing is like the nuggets run slice. I did a lot of work on this. This is the shocking part. So I believe this was I mean, this was genuinely shocking to me last season when I started doing this whole breakdown. They were really good. They were genuinely, really good defending spot ups, which is the biggest problem in the NBA. They would close out and take away the extra pass and force these certain possessions. And yet you're like, and like I talked all year about how many corner threes they gave up.

12:27They were one of the best teams. They were top five in opponent three point percentage from the corners, which yes percentage is impacted by luck very much. But if you are contesting appropriately and making them uncomfortable, it actually works. But the problem was that they would do that for again, 20 seconds. And then the ball kicks and Christians a step late. And he's by Christian and then Yokech watches him score a layup or they've done everything. They've managed they've collapsed on the drive and contained, but they haven't gotten their hands in the right position. So he makes a drop off pass to Yokech's guy who makes a little floater over and over and over and over and over again. This is the Yaka Pertal problem most especially. Like there are all these ways to fix it. But I will tell you that it can't be you can't what I will tell people is you can't put four great defenders around Yokech defend like they did last year and be a top 10 defense or a top 15 defense.

13:28You will still be terrible. You need better room protection and you need a more cohesive unit communication wise. Christian can like Christian was a bad defender last year, which was a massive disappointment. Christian can be a great defender, but it's going to take like a whole other level from him mentally in order to get there. And that will help, but you're still going to have this problem of one for switch into a one five attack. It is make whoever Jamal's guarding come into a screen, get Jamal on a guy, run them against Yokech. That's it until they solve that problem, they're going to continue to have these issues. On the other side, we're getting some more details about this because I think there's some judgment that can be made. Maybe should be made. That's going to help them in a long term. We're talking all that more here. I like running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odo comes in and all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing all in one powerful platform.

14:37No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odo.com slash locked on. That's Odo.com slash locked on alerts. Support for today's episode comes from square. The system powering so many of the places we already know and love, whether you're running a pack game day spot, a local restaurant or growing business square. Give sellers the tools to run their business without making things more complicated. Square brings payments inventory, payroll, invoices, customer insights and more together in one connected system. So whether you're a one location business or growing into multiple locations, square gives you the tools to sell, manage and grow without needing an IT team to figure it all out. Now think about this. There's nothing someone appreciates more about these local spots that can handle a huge game day crowd without everything feeling chaotic.

15:39Quick checkout, easy payments and everything moving smoothly. That's where a problem and a platform like square can make a real difference behind the scene. So if you're starting a business or running one that deserves better tools, square helps you sell, manage and grow without slowing down. Right now you can get up to $200 off square hardware at square.com slash go slash NBA. That's sqa r e dot com slash geo slash NBA. Run your business smarter with square. Get started today. We'll be back for more. I like that nuggets. And we are back for segment two here at lockdown. I'm gonna shout out to you all. Thank you for joining us each and every day. Make sure you go ahead and give us a five star of you and apple. I just modified that way more. More people can listen to great content being made here at lock on nuggets. Yo, so be balls in there and he's talking about how yoke was amazing in 2023. Defensively spend three years. My man. It's been three years. He's not the same dude anymore. His body is not the same.

16:40He's got too many miles on him. This is my big brother. This is one of the big problems with Denver is that yoke still as good as he ever was offensively. He is still amazing. He is physically not the same person. I know there's two more and you got it like they have to little they accept that. That's the hard part here is like they have to accept that they can't do what they did three years ago. And make sure you like share and subscribe on the YouTube side that one more people listen to Matt. Talking about this defense and also giving you the insight that you need and the correction that you need about some of these things. So Matt with that in mind. Yo cannot reach the same defense of consistency in year 12 now. Also just for people to understand it's not a did LeBron in year 12. Once you start getting to a certain point in your regular seasons. Typically your defense is going to start waning a little bit more. That's just a nature of the beast as you get older. And you can name almost any player that that also would apply to that's made it to where they're still in their prime in year 12.

17:45And I think with yoke it's obviously his offense has gotten to a point now when he's healthy. He is at a level where he can walk into giving you 34 16 14 with three steals one out of every three nights. That's where he's gotten on over efficiency and the best offense in the NBA when he's on the floor. So the question is Matt. What is the actual solution for this era in championship basketball because of the goal is to win the championship. But there are certain things about this era that are demanding more of biggs and all players, but especially biggs now. Then they ever have it a history to sport because Matt I went back and watched 2004 NBA finals. The reason why chancey billows was averaging like 20 on like plus 14 relative efficiency. If you because he they were putting shack and everything and shack quite simply could not defend versus all those perimeter players. And also versus chancey to arriving to the basket or the pull up shooting that he was having and then you couldn't have a guard that could stay with them.

18:50So what is it then for you that Denver actually needs to do to solve some of the defensive woes, especially if pushing one through four is one of the primary issues to have. Okay. Let's start with I've been fine this battle for a while. They don't want to do this in the regular season and I understand like I don't like saying what they need to do because it's like you do this. You see how hard it is right I can't do anything they can do. They got to fight through these screens more and deny the switch a lot more. One of the big things that when people like there was a comment that was like well yeah, but but but Jalen and cat. And I'm like one Jalen decided to absolutely bust his backside for three months. Cat is legitimately really good now because he's athletic and he's learned how to play at the level so well. This is one of the big things that's kind of happened where like Joker used to be better than cat defensively. But as I've gotten older, Joker is worse at the level while cat gets better and cat's still bad and drop and Joker is worse.

19:54So like that's kind of the comparison level here. If you want to say he's got so much on his play offensively then okay. If you want to top 10 defense, you need to take some of the pressure off of a joke of a Yoke defensive or offensively. He's going to have the energy to be able to do this and he's going to have the green light from coaches to be like look man. If you get in foul trouble, that's our fault. Like that's our fault for putting you in that position too often. But you got to contest if they get there. You got to contest because he's got to play draw because he's older and if he's going to play draw my this is my big thing last year. You could play draw that's fine. You can't let him get to the rim. When they took mid range jumpers, the scheme works. It's fine that make him take mid range jumper short range jumpers, leaners, all these type of push shots. You get beat on those you get beat on those. It's fine. What you can't do is you can't have guys get Ryan Nemharr get into the to the layup line over and over and over again. You can't have Terrence Chan Jr. getting down hill and dunking on you. Like you got to play that level of resistance.

20:55That one is always so funny. You bring that one up specifically because everyone's getting dunked on in that specific scenario. No, I know. Yeah. Well, Jamal's going to contain, right? But this is but this is one of the problems that's why we're like, look, you can't sit here and be like, well, Joker's so awesome. They should never make Joker ever have to contest anything. That's not realistic. He's going to have to contest. He just is. Like you've talked about what Billy Donovan did with Boot, right? With Bootchavitch at center. The difference is like if you go back and you watch Bootch's perfect. In drop. He knows how to run it. He's just technically perfect. He's like, I can't do anything but this. But I'm going to do this really well. And it wasn't that they didn't let Bootch get attacked. Bootch was just like, you can take your mid-range jumper. All you want. You're not getting to the room. I'm not letting you. I will body you. I will body you and I will jump and I will contest with two arms and verticality. Like that's what you got to do if you're going to make that work with that big, with that kind of big. And you could do that. The other thing I think that's like really important here is just like, I guess a Christian is the number one guy that you have to single out and be like,

21:59you have to be better. Like you just got to be so much better this year. And it was like late closeouts. If you look at Christian's pick and roll stuff, it's actually really promising. The scheme worked with Christian and pick and roll defense. But he got destroyed in isolation. Just I'm being cooked. And if it's like, yeah, I couldn't move because of my ankle. Cool. Totally understandable. Hope it feels better. Hope he can contain. But a lot of this is also late closeouts. Like they just got murdered so often late in clocks off of these bad closeouts where guys get around them and score. And it does turn into the situation where like if you say like, well, Joker has to defend too many of these. Yes, you're absolutely right. Their perimeter defense was bad. But when they would execute correctly and then guys would still score, those are the ones where I circle yoke and I'm like, you can't let that happen. You can't be the reason the scheme fails. That's my only requirement of yoke. If the scheme fails on another level, okay, but you have to build in the possibility of guys getting into the paint.

23:01This is the NBA. You can't make the ruling here. What you can't do if you're not going to switch one five because you can't switch with Joker, right? You don't want to do that. If you're not going to switch one five, it can't be never make Joker have to help. That's not possible. Switch is built for no one helps. You do your own thing. Handle your own responsibility. Everybody guards themselves. But if you're not going to switch, which nobody wants, you're going to have to have help defense, right? Yeah. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. It does. On the other side, I got some thoughts for you in response. And some questions asked there. This has been great so far. We'll be right back for more here. I locked out nuggets. Support for today's episode comes from Indeed Sposter Job. A workplace chaos hits and you need the right hire. Indeed Sposter Job tells connect employers with candidates who act specific needs,

24:03like skills, certifications, and locations. So less time gets spent searching and more time gets spent finding the right fit. People are finding quality hires on Indeed right now. In the minute I've been talking to you, companies like yours have made 27 hires on Indeed, according to Indeed data worldwide. Now, as we're talking about defense, we're talking about skiing. One great addition to the team can have a ripple effect on everyone around them. When you find someone who brings the right skills, attitude, and experience, it makes the entire group better. That's why finding quality candidates matter so much. And why tools like Indeed Sposter jobs can help make that process easier. So spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes, less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is the job for Indeed Sposter jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 dollar sponsor job credit to help get your job. The premium status deserves at Indeed.com. Just last podcast. Just go to Indeed.com slash podcasts. Right now it's a port hour show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

25:04Indeed.com slash podcast. Term for conditions apply. Need to hire. It's a job for Indeed Sposter jobs. We'll be back for the final segment here. And locked on nuggets. And we are back for the final segment here. I locked on the other shot at the UL THINK Alpha Joining us each and every day. We're talking about deep and shawl and Matt, I think one of the biggest things that like when their scheme is tight, they're really good defensively. I think that the rockets game you're muted by the way is one of the examples of that. I think that obviously early season, the Clippers game was another example of that. We've had moments. We've had games playoff series. You know, we have disagreements on the Thunder series and the Clippers series. I think that two years ago they really started to figure some things out. And defensively they're better than their offense a lot at the time. And even in the Wolf series, the numbers they their offense was the issue this year as supposed to their defense. I think some of this is Denver that one through four switching thing to your point

26:07is probably something that has to go in large part because I don't think that is sustainable to ask you all to be what he is on the offensive end, but also then defensively he has to maintain that burden every single night because at this point he is getting picked on more and more. And the results are getting worse and worse for Denver. And then I think if the other end of this with YoKitch, there is a level of this where YoK does have to make a little bit more of a transition where he is a little bit more stout at certain levels of the defense. And for instance, when they when they ice, his job when you ice is baseline and then also containing ball where it doesn't get inside of you. And when you don't get good position and when he does, it works and you can trap well. But when you don't get good positioning, what happens is is that now that New York game, when everybody came back for Denver in Denver, they got a 30 in the third quarter, they ran that three separate times in the third quarter and they tried to ice, but because your position isn't well and because if you're trying to ask somebody to come and

27:10rotate back to the middle to play that lob thread, if you're not in good position, the other person behind you on the other end of this, they're not in good position. And now the lob thread is way easier to access and Mitchell Robinson was just, dunk, dunk, dunk. So a lot of this is simply doing your job and being where you're supposed to be. So I do think it is a personnel thing, but also from Yochitch out, everybody also has to be able to commit to doing this game to the master of ability. You're still muted. Sorry, I tried to meet during commercials. So you know, I think one of the things that gets in here is not just like effort or ability. It's like technique, right? Where there was a lot of time, and you talk about effort. There's a lot of times last year when these are the ones that absolutely drive me insane is if a guy like if Yoch has, I'm trying to think of like who's a really fast guard fox fox is a good one. If Joker's in a high drop and Fox gets by him, I do not blame him.

28:13Fox is too fast for him. That's just like that's good players are going to make plays. They're just going to make shot. These guys are awesome, right? When it's like Ryan Nemhard and it's like dude, make Ryan Nemhard make jumpers. But when he's at the level, when he's locked in like the rockets game you mentioned, when he's locked in, he goes into at the level coverage. And it's like 2023 again, and he's like hands wide, low handle on the angle, denying the pocket pass, disrupting things, getting a hand in there. The foot thing that everyone talks about where he kicks the ball to disrupt those pocket passes. He does that like he's engaging at the level. But if you watch last year, a lot of the time when they do that, it is what is Joker doing in this scheme defensively? Well, he's at the level in that he is physically standing at the level of the screen. But he's not doing anything. He's not trying to disrupt the dribble. He's not trying to close off the angle. He's not trying to do any of these things. He's just there. And if you're just there, it's too easy to get to the backside when you're at level. And now you have the same problem that you always

29:16have, which is Jamal's in the corner trying to rim protect. And it's like, yeah, Jamal needs to be better. And it's like, man, you can't expect Jamal Murray to come over and block a forward coming from the other side. You just can't do that. And it's like, well, where's A.G. at? Well, that's the point. They put teams once you will, if you go back and you watch this, if they're not attacking Jamal on ball, they stick whoever Jamal is guarding in the corner because they want Jamal to be the weak side help. That's the spurs game. So when Wimby sat out, Devin was at 37 points. That game Jamal Murray was a corner for a corner player. And they would then just have Devin basso rotate up as the play was being drive. And Devin would hit that three off that backside. Yeah. Because it's, it's like, it's realistically, it's not really like you, if you watch these things, you can't really ask more of Jamal. I can't, like, I don't watch these and be like, he's not running hard enough because he sometimes he'll do the thing where he's like running and he's just

30:17kind of given that half like, I'm running at you with my hand up. You're going to make this three. Okay, you made the three. He does that. It's because he knows he's like, I can't get there. He can't, like, he can't get there. I mean, to be fair, it was Jamal and he is self-done this like in the game. It's a lot when he puts his hand up. He get, he falls asleep. He can fall asleep, like relatively, no, I think his bigger thing, honestly, is that he gets to this is my thing is I'm like, what do you think you're going to do down there? This is why I always wonder why he's in the paint helping. When he is three-fourths of the way over, when he's in the middle or past it, of like, if you split the paint in half and he's over on that other side, I'm like, what are you going to do? Like, what, what are you, if a, if a forward charge is in there, they're just going to jump past you. You can't do anything. Stay, huh? This is why I love about Julian Strother. Julian actually is terrible at the slice coverage. If he's got to learn that part, Cam is actually the best at this. Cam is the one that's like, if I have a guy who shoots 44% from three, I'm not going into the paint.

31:19I will step over. I will have a foot on the block, but I have to maintain my discipline to be able to close out and contain here and make the right close out in slice. Julian is like, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not, I'm not going to be the one. This is very, it's honestly smart for Julian. Julian is always like, look, I can't help you, but I'm not going to be the one that gives up the three because I'll get yanked. So I'm staying home. Who are the five best defenders on this team? Yes, miss before. Aaron Gordon. By performance. Oh, by performance. Okay. Last season or this season? Sure. Let's say, let's say last season and then what they should be this season. Okay. Cam was number one last year, actually. He was number one. Aaron was number two. Peyton was number three.

32:30This gets really tough. Oh, Spencer was, um, was, um, definitely number four. Definitely number four. And number five might have been Bruce Brown. Maybe probably Bruce Brown, I'd say. Maybe Tim Hardaway, Jr. It's very close between Bruce and Tim. This upcoming season, this is what it needs to be. It needs to be Alfa Diallo, Christian Brown, Cam Johnson, Aaron Gordon. So that's your chance. That needs to be the order this year. Where's Bagley on that list? Six. Well, you think he, okay. So basically, the people that are here, your job is defense. You need to be like your calling card needs to be the defense, essentially. Alfa, obviously, yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm very high on Alfa Diallo. Like somebody was saying he's not going to play. If that happens, that's probably a, I think it's more of a political

33:31decision than it is an actual basketball one. He needs to play. There's enough possibility there. He needs it. You need to at least find out if he sucks from training camp. Okay. Um, Christian, I absolutely think like, Christian said this last year. He said all the right things to be in a training camp and it just didn't happen for him. But like, some of this is that Christians got to adapt a mentality. I think one of the things that was really hard for Christian, honestly, is that Aaron is really good about doing his job and communicating what Nikola needs. And Christian has to do a better job of communicating what Nikola needs to other teammates. In play and out of play to limit what has to happen for Nikola. He needs to protect him. Spencer, that's the other big thing here. Spencer's individual defense is phenomenal. If you put Spencer on the floor with Joker, it's a disaster because Spencer has no idea how to cover for Joker yet. It takes a lot. You have to learn how to play with Nikola in order to learn how to not get murdered with him on the court defensively. And Aaron can do it. And that he's,

34:37and Cam can do it. And that's pretty much it. Cam got way, the start of the season defensively for Cam Johnson to the end was like night and day. Cam got so good. It was like he was able to be like, I know what Joker needs. I know what our scheme needs. And I know what I need. He was so good defensively last year. Yeah, I'll be curious to see kind of how this works and what happened over the course of the season. What's your list for top five? Well, last year, based on some digging. Last year, the best defenders on Denver were Cam Johnson. I'll include Spencer Jones retrospectively because I think he's probably going to have to fit in there somewhere. Aaron at points, especially, what that fourth was Yokech. Come on now. Come on now. I mean, I can read it to you. You said Aaron Watson Brown Yokech, Cam Johnson. What are we basing in Alpha? What measures are we basing in Alpha?

35:38Well, all kind of stuff is just said how the team performed defensively when they were on the floor. But also to I think people are not people. The team was really bad. And Christian was legitimately like bad for them last year. Watson, when Watson and Yokech were on the floor, Watson had no impact whatsoever on on defense, even with Yokech off the floor this last season. That just wasn't what he was doing. He wasn't changing anything for where the defense was. Offensively, they were better. No doubt. But the issue is, but this may be in person. No thing. Maybe it is that like even when Watson wasn't playing with Yokech last year, he was playing with Val. The next time like a 117.7 offensive rating when Yokech was off the floor and Watson was on. So maybe that is. Val's also not a good defender, which maybe might be your answer to some of that. I think for formatively, the entire team with out Yokech was also just bad defensively. Yeah. And it doesn't, to the point of saying it doesn't make sense to me that if you know that the

36:40thing you need to shore up without Yokech is you're not going to have the offense. So the defense needs to be there. It almost needs to be like what OKC they don't have the ability to do. OKC. So I'm not saying be that. OKC knows that if it shades out of the game, we have to become the most aggressive beehive you've ever seen in your life. So when they win the minutes without it because their defense is just go to a level. Go ahead. I kind of wonder if one of the problems fundamentally because I think you you were really down on the small ball and I don't really get why like to me. Well, too small was the question. What was that line of last year that we were doing? I forget. It was with a three guard line up with like Bruce at the three. So like to me that the big thing here is I think that they try to run the same drop principles with Jonas without Yokech's offense of boost. So it's like you're not getting stops. They're running at you in transition. That makes it worse. Right. And then you're still playing drop with a with a slow big in Jonas.

37:41And you're still not getting room protection. And you're still like you're not getting any of the good stuff versus like when they went small ball and they just switched everything. Like I think they can run baggly. I want to see Diallo baggly Jones three four five switch everything. They got to figure out how to space well enough at one two Spencer can space. Baggly can rim roll. I don't know that Diallo. That's a very big big unknown. But people are going to be like he's a zero. He's not a zero offensively. I've done the film. He's not zero. He might be in the NBA. shorter shorter line. The worst Yokech combos last year were picket. Spencer Jones like I said, they just do not know how to do he just did not know how to defend with them. Peyton, then Jamal, then Cam, Christian, Hardaway and him. This is one of the things I really think is like like Tim and Yokech had good defensive numbers together. And I just think that was three point luck. That's just like I there's enough with with Tim that you can look back at and kind of be like yeah,

38:42I don't buy that. I don't I don't buy that. If you adjust for three point luck, the best combo last year defensively was Yokech and Strother 389 minutes a 114 defensive rating to be a data baller.com. Which there's probably something to that that just like again, Julian is very much I am not leaving the corner. Well, he had a better defensive season than first three years. For cheers. Yeah, he needs to learn how to do the slice coverage because a lot of times he's closing to the wrong side and you actually will see you'll see teammates and coaches yelling at him on various plays for execution of stuff. But he also picks off a lot of those ball reversal passes because they expect it to be open because everybody else helps way too much down trying to help Yoke. Don't do that. Don't over help. It just makes the problem worse. You're not helping Joker and you're leaving the corner three open. Don't do that. Don't do that. Yeah, I think we have I think the interesting thing here is you seem to be of the mindset, which is probably our slight differential

39:45that the team and some of the spailings are built around Yokech's defensive issues. And I think there is truth to that. But I also will say their team defensively has performed the last few years better with Yokech on the floor. I hear what you're saying. So some of this is like, is it is this something that can be solved by simply doing a better job and executing maybe a news scheme in some ways or also some of the older scheme they are going to deploy as well. Do you really think that Nicola was not the problem defensively last year? No, I think Murray was the biggest defensive issue by far. No, no, no, I'm not saying he's like the biggest or the only. Yeah, I think his defense wasn't good for large stress hits of the year. But yeah, go ahead. And look, I want to note this. This is really important. I overlook it. This is a blind spot for me. Joker is an elite defensive rebounder and it matters a ton. You have to end the possession. It doesn't matter if you defend for 24 seconds. If they get the ball back and they just run it again.

40:46It doesn't matter. If you don't end the possession, it doesn't matter. You didn't end the possession. So you have to rebound. But here's the problem is that when I started to diagnose the majority, like Joker plays the majority of the minutes. We know this, the vast majority. And if we look at the problems with their issues defensively in the majority of the minutes, you do wind up. If you go back and you watch, if you diagnose it, if you try and triage the problem, it doesn't wind up. You do not reach the conclusion of Jamal Murray got beat one on one over and over again. Jamal Murray left guys open over and over and over again. You don't wind up there. What you do wind up with a lot of is guys got cuts and shots at the rim because Joker didn't contest. With both, I mean, again, I think the issue is, is that like, we probably have different memories on some of this stuff. Like in the Wolf series, for instance, Murray was getting hunted repetitively, right? And I think in a regular season,

41:47in a regular season as well, they are doing their damnness to get Murray involved as much as possible. I think a part of it is the concession, the concession issues is you might think that they need to stop doing the one-four switch, which I think also would be fair to Jamal. But then the question becomes to scramble. Like can they scramble well enough with the perimeter oriented league that they're in now? Can they scramble enough around Jamal while also swambling around Yokech if they choose to do that? So I think it, here's a good indication. So the Nuggets were 10th in the number of possessions allowed off of cuts last year via Synergy, okay? They were the worst in points for possession allowed of every team above them. So all these teams allowed more cuts than Denver did, which was a lot, and they still defended it better. And when you look at them, when you look at those possessions and you go through, you're like, that was Joker, that was Joker, that was Joker, that was Joker, that was Zeke, that was Spencer, that was Aaron, that was Joker, that was Joker,

42:48that was Aaron, that was Zeke. Like the pattern emerges. That's why I feel the way that I do Swypa is like when I triaged, what were the actual problems versus what it feels like? When Jamal makes a mistake, it feels atrocious. And Jamal in the playoffs, I'll tell it like I've said this, I will continue to say, Jamal was worse defensively than Joker in the playoffs series. By not a wide margin, but a significant one. And Joker was bad. That's how bad Jamal was. So again, this is why I have said since the end of the season, you have to move Jamal. Even though he's all NBA, and I think he's turning into this like floor general point guard that knows has better control over the game than ever, and he's coming off his best season, and he's turning into a more of a leader. Like Jamal has done everything you want him to see, and I don't think it matters because I don't think you can get stocks with Joker and Jamal in the four. Well, again, I think this is also where we parsed. They did have defensive issue versus the walls, but again, I know the numbers say that you're still referencing here that the offense

43:52was bigger issue than anything else. So I think I think some of this is the nuggets are going to have to find a way to with the Oakage and Murray on the floor, because that's what that's what their team is where they can find a way to get back to the point where they're able to play a above average defense more consistently in moments that matter because they went from being a very good clutch defense to a very bad clutch defense out of nowhere. Could remember, they spent the last several years as a top five clutch team over a six year stretch, and then last year, they went to the 20s out of nowhere. And I think a lot of this is the ending possession with the rebounding and all that stuff. But can I set this up to the 24 series, which is also why I'm excited about Bagley, Diallo, Jones, all these players. I think Denver, the bigger they play, the better their defense and offense will be. Because I think the way they deploy their scheme is very dependent on the amount of athletes and people that are at the rim that can end possessions and also contest as much as possible, but also scramble on the perimeter as well, because they need length in order

44:54to do the stuff that they need to do. Let me ask you this. If they put, if they put for all defense defenders around yoke, what rank do they have? I mean, their defense will be way better. I mean, I don't know if all defense. So that's the question I have is like, if you have not, you can't really have four all defensive guys. Let's say they got two all defensive caliber one no, no question. Well, sub of onto a team like what team in particular, like are you thinking about? Like the wolves would let's do it. Lanna, because I actually don't think I actually don't think Minnesota is that stack offensively. Well, no, yeah. Doris will doort Dyson CJA, Jalen Johnson and Yoke is basically. If you got doort Dyson, let's sub in one of the Thompson brothers. Doort Dyson, one of the Thompson brothers either one and doort Dyson, one of the Thompson brothers. I'm trying to give a power forward who I really trust defensively. Aaron, let's just keep Aaron. Oh, yeah, I mean, their defense will be excellent, but I think like how good they would be able to play differently. I mean, they would be top 10 for sure, but I think they would be able to play differently as well. But again,

45:57same time, what they're often to be as good. Yeah, for sure. That's a question. You know, I think I think like would that get you top five? Would that get you top 10? Would that get you top 15? I think it's an interesting question. What's more important to you at this point now for your own this is it could in 2020 in particular. There is there are very specific things you need to win. And depth, length and speed tend to be one of those things as of right now. And I think some of this is OKC, the spurs and the nicks, what we can say is they swarm. They swarm you. And like, that's what makes them feel so different. The Cleveland series, they couldn't get like they couldn't get a shot clean. Donovan couldn't get a shot clean. This is Ryan's thing, right? The physicality. You know, and I love that too. Obviously that matters, right? So what do you feel like? What is necessary for you at this point that like if you're going to actually be a proficient regular season championship level defense, what are the things you feel like you've got to have?

46:59God see, for me, it's so different. I'm not as as indexed on the athleticism as you are. To me, Boston is like proof of that that fails. That fails when you sort of look at Boston. Boston beats you with communication and technique. That's how Boston beats you. It's not it's not athleticism. Yeah. And they've got a lot of athletes on the floor of the Detroit B2 with I will say this, you have to wait find one of you have to have a necessary is you have to win one of two things. Sure. You either have to be a top five defensive rebounding team. Yeah. Or a top five turnover forcing team. Yeah, you don't have to be both. Got one or the other. You have to be able to have more possessions on the opponent and limit the number of defensive possessions that you have to defend. From there, for me, it's really is I think it's way more about communication, KYP and discipline to game plan. I have seen so many coaches coach up rosters. I think honestly we're going to look at a lot of the OSE OK, see guys

48:01in the future and be like, wow, they're as good as I thought they were because they were just coached into an agent ritual. Like an incredible scheme. I'm not sure who it's going to be. We'll see. We'll see like who it's going to be. But I see reputations change radically over this over the course of a couple of years where guys go from they were never thought of as good defenders to being thought of as elite defenders to being thought of as great elite defenders to be in like he's not very good defensively. Like that happens all the time. So that's why I'm never really looking at personnel as the solve that everyone else is where they just want if you just never if you always stay in front of your guy and Joker never has to contest anything then that's what the nuggets. That's how it should be. And I'm like, doesn't Yoke Hsley, Dean of the head and he led an NBA in contest though? Like, yeah, well, I think that's a part of it too. Like, but yeah, in fact, we're in the minutes though there too. Like that's part of it. I mean, all the other other other people next one are also centers, but like he also faces more because of stylistically, I think the kind of difference they run, you know, you know, and it's like that you can't hide

49:05you can't hide Joker the way that you can hide these other guys. You can hide them. You just can't hide. I once battle with Ryan over over Yoke Hsley defensive responsibilities and Ryan was absolutely right that Joker has a like the highest defensive responsibility, but it's also just like them's the breaks. You're a center. I don't know what to tell you. I can't help you. If you could guard power forwards and the nuggets could play a rim protection center next to you, that would be better. It would be so much better if Joker was like 30 like 40 pounds lighter and they can play him at four. It'd be so much better. Well, to be fair, like he lost a lot of weight as of like what we see obviously in Serbia so far. But I think some of this is I, but this is why my Evan Moby Pipe plan thing has been what has been. I think like Bagley is the best cup we've gotten. Yep. For what that player is supposed to look like. Yep. And I think I'm excited to see what that new Bagley, Diallo, Jones, whoever else is on the floor in that iteration. Because I think that is the kind of stuff that I think actually will help them a lot. Joker even when he does play with a lot of

50:09effort, which happens. He still is going to have limitations that exist, right? So it's like I never blame him when it's like he gives a great contest and the guy makes it. He's to face in an all-star talent and the guy makes a wild layup. Never. I'm always like when I do this analysis, I don't blame that on him. Those are possessions where I'm like Joker did exactly what he should there. He did everything he should. And this is how the league goes sometimes. But when it's he's just watching the center that he's supposed to be guarding, make catches and make little floaters, a two-foot floater over and over and over again and he's not putting a hand up. That's when I'm like, come on man, come on, come on man. Like you're like you guard your team guarded for 22 seconds. You had him. Just put a hand up. I'd be curious to see to go through these games with you because you definitely even last year, I think there are moments where you blamed Joker for the end of possession more than I did at time. But I also blamed Joker harder at times and maybe it says him too strong because of some of the stuff he was just doing in general that we whatever. So I

51:09think some of this is they're going to have Murray and Yokehsson of Floor next year. Yep. They also were top 10 when everybody was healthy. Yep. Three point luck is also involved in that. Yep. Can they do it and if they do it, I guess how long would it need to be real for you? So they start next year 15 games again or top 10 again. How long does it need to last for you for it to be like, okay, this is kind of part of who they are. Christmas. Okay, through the throw. It started a real season basically. Yeah, I get Christmas. Yeah. I'll say here is there is this kind of thing of like, well, Jamal's worse and what I keep trying to get to is as much like you've mentioned how much teams will go after after Jamal. They go after him in the playoffs. Regular season teams don't hunt that much. The Thunder do. That's an exception. Shay is a hunter. Most teams do not don't match up hunting that much. So so Jamal's defensive bad impact is just limited because he doesn't have like he just doesn't get attacked as routinely. You can hide him more effectively. That doesn't

52:11mean that he's better than Joker. He's not. But when Joker is when I'll say this, when Joker is bad, it hurts more than when Jamal's bad. Even when Jamal's bad, more often than Joker is. That's how I feel. Yeah, I'm really curious to see like, they have a new addition to the coaching staff this year. Hopefully there's some fresh eyes that are going to approach this season and how they can also make some changes in the judgments. But we'll find out. Chad, this is a great show, y'all extra long. Make sure y'all like, share it, subscribe. Let us know what you think in the comics. Can they get back to top 10? What needs to happen? And what do you think will be the solve for the Nuggets? Should it not happen yet again? We had a great episode of the day. I've met more. I'm Swiper. This is Lockdown Nuggets.

53:28All investors, prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see cowchey.com slash regulatory. Thank you for making Lockdown your first listen every day. For your second listen, find the Lockdown NBA podcast where there's no off season. West Matt and Hayes keep you up to date on contract negotiations, rumors, and everything you need to be the most informed NBA fan. Find Lockdown NBA on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network. Your team every day.