Prosecutors Never Offered Lindsay Clancy What Before Trial?

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2:02from volume orders to design curation, plus members get 20% off, tax exempt checkout, and flexible payment with no minimums. Learn more at Creightonbarrel.com slash podcast. That's Creightonbarrel.com slash podcast. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Let's go here. The district attorney, did they paint themselves into a corner right from the start by going for the first degree murder? I mean, should this have been, should this have been something lesser to begin with? Or would that, you know, sometimes you go in with a harder charge, assuming that that jury's going to end up with a lower one. So you do, you know, you go in harder. You got three children are dead. I mean, is it politically possible for an elected prosecutor to offer a plea deal without facing some sort of massive back lash, even if proving cold blooded free meditation

3:04was always a huge gamble? But notice the word political gets mixed into there. So the motivations of how you're prosecuting a case don't necessarily rest on, you know, the laurels of the case or what's right or wrong. If you're adding the word political into the conversation. Yeah, political always seems to come in at some point, because every time we look at trying to understand why certain people are making certain decisions when it comes to prosecuting what case is they're going to prosecute, there's usually some sort of election coming up. I mean, we just dealt that with that out in Vegas with a, what's its face case, right? Yeah. But in this case, so, and here's why I don't, again, my conjecture on this one, I don't think politics play a huge part of this. You know, so it goes to the original question, you know, why go for first degree murder when you have a lot of other options on this. And here's what I think. And this is based off of what we're seeing. And if you look, and if you go online and you pull up the stats on how people are standing on

4:05this case, if you're in the camp, like a lot of people are, 100% guilty, premeditated, no such thing as her breaking a psychotic, you know, having a psychotic break because, you know, you look at, it's not exactly Andrea Yates like. And so she's wrong, she's guilty, and she should be behind bars. I believe this is exactly, and oh, anyway, the people that think that, by and large, are law enforcement and prosecutors. That is, and there's, I know there's a lot of other people in there, but people that lean hard towards law enforcement, justice and prosecution side oriented people, they're typically on that side. And so if you live inside a neco chamber of that, like the prosecution does here, they're talking to law enforcement, they're talking to other people, they're looking past cases that, because this case is so rare, they're saying themselves, of course, we're going to go for first degree murder. Why wouldn't we? She's guilty when you look at their courtroom demeanor. What was really telling to me for the two prosecutors in the room was, when the entire courtroom

5:06is falling apart in emotion, because we had Bob Mod on the inside, it wasn't just Lindsey Clancy collapsing on herself, balling, shaking, but everyone else dealing with that same high emotions, looking at the pictures of the murdered children and everything, they'll listen to the 9-1-1 call. They're only two people not to be losing their shit with the two prosecutors. And so how can that happen? How can they be like that? Well, they think she's performative. When you think someone's performing and they don't really feel that emotion, and you just see them as a vile human being, their emotions don't impact you whatsoever. It typically. And so, again, pure conjecture, I don't know them, I don't live inside their heads, but my conjecture on this is the reason they went for first-degree murders. They complete the 100% believe in an entire echo chamber that this is exactly the only thing that fits in their mind and anything less would be wrong. Well, I mean, I feel like that's, I think how we had such vitriol through this whole case from the beginning is because there really wasn't, I don't know, a lot of minds being changed or

6:15ability to hear the evidence in this case and have an opinion swayed. I think a lot of people went into this middle of the road. I could be wrong, I'm sure there's some, but I don't know that a lot of people were middle of the road and this to begin with, and we're willing to be swayed. I feel like a lot of people went in with their direction they were going and then the echo chamber started on any side and it just fortified that even harder and each side gets louder at each other. But at the end of the day, also, both sides not hearing each other because I think it's funny in some ways when you get to talking with people on this, if you have a different opinion, everybody agrees. Yes, it's horrible, the children are dead. But I think sometimes you almost get so upset at a person is a different opinion about the logistics of this case, which is really what we're talking about.

7:15And if it's different, we start assigning their own intent to this, so their own beliefs of they don't care about the children. I think everybody cares about the damn kids. Everyone wants to be behind bars. It's just this engend population or getting psychiatric treatment. I mean, seriously, no one wants to route in public. Nobody wants to hurt me. At the end of the day, people don't want this to happen again. People don't want this to keep happening again. But that's what gets me on it is there really is only one path for that. And that's understanding this and looking at the ways that she was failed and hopefully putting enough speed bumps in place to prevent the next one. There will always be failures. There will always be people that will fall through the system that will happen. But if we can recognize that, hey, some of these things have been done better. We probably wouldn't be here. We will catch several others of them in the process. But if we just go and say, well, every time that come by,

8:20just burn them at the stake, that's not helping anything. That's not justice. That's just, you know, it's insurance, in my opinion. And there's so many parts of that. Just the people just don't understand that I think at the end of the day, we have so much more in common on this case than people realize. So even the hard liners that said, you know, lock her up and throw the way the key. Okay. But what would it cost you to just say, well, get her treatment along the way too. So we can learn, you know, part of that treatment is have the researchers go in there and also talk to her. So we can actually have all the red flags are going off along the system, all the things that failed her in the system, all the medications that weren't working for her. And whether you believe she's taken them, I don't even care. Whatever was going on didn't work. Why not incarcerated like you want to incarcerated her and then just instead of throwing away the key and being ignorant, why don't we learn from it and move forward so it

9:23doesn't happen again. So the whole point of criminal justice system is to justice. And what's part of justice? Not allowing that to happen again. I actually researched justice too on this one because everyone says, I want justice for the children. Well, what is justice for the children? What's justice to the family? The family wants her incarcerated getting medical treatment. So so everyone that is standing for locker up in general population throw the way the key is rest your life. So you're standing against the family's wishes, which are the only survivors in the in the remaining victim. So you're standing up post the victims in this. That's interesting. And it costs you as a human being, nothing to allow her to get treatment and be researched. So it doesn't happen again. That to me is justice is learning to not let this happen again. I don't understand what the argument is about learning. Because it means accepting that maybe your deeply held belief systems or opinions in the past might be wrong. But I'm not even saying that's why.

10:25That's why people don't like that. But I'm saying you're wrong. Okay, you're right. You want to lock the way. I mean, so I mean, you know, because you know, again, I hate bringing up gender so much. But you know, a lot of times on a lot of cases, we wind up an exact and the same outcome of what we think should happen on the case. It's the path we got there, which is different. But again, if the end of the day, the golden objectives that is attained good, I mean, I do this all the time. So what my team did all the time was we had what I call we operated on what I called the code of trust. And the first step in the code of trust is what your goal objective and priority. And then the next step under that is who do we need on our side to achieve that? And then I have all these steps to bring on these people. But that number one thing is what your goal and objective and priority. Because as we diverge on the world of the Watson house and how we're going to make that happen in the path forward, that's what we get like this. And that's exactly where we are today. I mean, seriously, everyone do your own thought experiment right now. Everyone on both sides of this case, at the end of the day, we're so closer

11:25aligned than the Watson house where everyone's arguing was like she should be criminally responsible, she shouldn't be criminally responsible. She didn't take her medications, she did take her medications, she was taken for this. I mean, all these things in here, except for the Patrick Nutter stuff, you know, all these things are arguing the Watson house. But at the end of the day, I don't know anyone that says we want to release, we want to release and allow it to happen again to other babies. No one wants to go out again and have more babies and kill them. And the probability that went through the probability that, you know, the early stages should be released, she'd probably going through menopause. The fact that she might end up being able to have kids because of her injuries is also pretty high. So again, just go to the end of the day. Everyone is pretty much looking for really, really closely aligned the same thing. Why is everyone arguing so much? That's what really blows my mind. I mean, it goes in so many, there's the spiders off in so many different directions. If you strip away the lawyers and the courtroom theatrics,

12:26I mean, just for a second, Lindsey Clancy is paralyzed from the waist down in a wheelchair, living every day with the realization of what she did. I mean, what does society actually gain by putting her in a state penitentiary versus a locked psychiatric facility? I mean, is it about public safety? Is it just pure payback? It's the insatiable need for revenge and we got you. I mean, it's, I don't know, I mean, I think people really need to take a step back and look at where the rage comes from in this case. If you're really feeling it hard, I think you got to ask why. And where... She's often herself up as a science experiment. Literally, she says, I want to be your science experiment, figure this out. She wants to be an advocate for people not having... She doesn't want to be out forming her own not for profit, you know, living in society because again, remember, she's still on s watch 24, 7, one on one, always being

13:31observed because if given the chance, she'll offer herself. She will self-delete and heartbeat. And so if you're going to make her stick around, she's saying, I might as well, again, I'm not trying to put words in her mouth, but from what we've seen, from what we've heard, the leakages, that she wants to make a difference, so now, Laelas, happen again. If she's going to remain on this planet. Let's, let's look at this here in the very, I mean, it's highly unlikely that anything other than a mistrial is going to be the outcome here at this point. Right. Let's talk about the unlikeliness that were, I mean, in my opinion, that we're going to see her at another trial. I mean, at this point, I don't know. I have my doubts. They're going to have to keep that s watch pretty tight. I think that's why Reddington invoked this, matter of fact, when you look at the language of what he invoked, and he invoked the, you know, the Karen Reed trial saying that she was able to physically make the retrial and he why he asked for a stake and not putting words in his mouth

14:35because it came in the last of me for going there. But when I look at this and pulled it up, it looks like he's afraid that she's not going to make it the retrial because of all the issues, because of her wanting to offer herself. Yeah. And I mean, that's a legitimate, a very legitimate concern because, because I don't even know, restate. It's, I mean, it is a legitimate concern. Um, I brought it up the other day with Shivan. Um, I don't know that it shouldn't not be an option for human beings that find themselves in an absolute horrendous position in life. I would certainly think this would qualify if you come out of a psychosis like this, realize the horrendous things that you did. And in the way the world has positioned itself against you, I don't know. I would think that would qualify to be a humane way of exiting should you choose to go? My guess is that because she's on 24 or 7s watch for the last three plus years,

15:36yeah. So we can do a circus basically. Yeah. I would say the only other reason that she is still here is because Reddington and her family are begging her to stay. Yeah. I, I, I, literally, it, I mean, what other reason is there? She doesn't want to be here. I don't know. I really think it's going to be an interesting task. Take, take the eyes off her and, um, and give her the opportunity. I don't think she'll be here. Yeah. I, I agree. And, and I think that's the reality of, uh, of a lot of this. That of angry people online. I know. I'm trying to like look at some of them and read some of them as we, we wait to see if they're going to get back here in the court. We're more than an hour now, uh, into this. Yeah. Yeah. E. Mullins. And that's what it is. People, people mistake that word vengeance and justice. Vengeance is a very, very unhealthy thing for people to go after. And literally, what are you avenging? I mean, just ask yourself these questions. Why are you,

16:41you as an individual? If you're one of these people worked up, I mean, even after myself, you know, asking myself these things, you know, as I'm watching this play out and looking at the hung jury, wanting this to, to be finalized on the, on what I think is, is, is a fair and just prosecution and defense of this thing. And, and, and way I keep myself from getting wrapped up in that is, is saying, well, the, the system is working the way the system is designed. Can it be better? Yes, can it be, you know, fixed? Can it be, yes. But at the same time, it is working like it is. And at the end of the day, it's not my justice. It's not my revenge. I mean, I, I'm not looking for any of that. I'm looking for people being served, public safety being served. And you're not bringing the kids back. And when you, when you can't do anything else, I pay attention to families, you know, when you look at the, the, the consolvices dealing with what they think is justice for their lost daughter and the other three that lost their hands, the co-burger and, and that monster, you know,

17:43you listen and pay attention to them. And, you know, when you look at the victim impact statements they gave, they, those are profound. And the only thing I keep playing forward on this one is, what will the, you know, say that she comes back and is convicted, whether this time or it retrawls the next, next one. And the family gets up there to give victim impact statements. They're, they're gonna be saying, please, please put her in a psych ward. I mean, that's all they want. That's all anyone wants. I just don't understand why people aren't listening. I, I don't know. I don't know exactly why, you know, I don't know. I, I, I have been surprised by this entire case quite honestly. I was talking one. The amount of vitriol, the amount of, just directions and roads that everyone has been going down on this case, where we go all the way to the, the, the Patrick roads to, to everything. It's, it's, it's really just been kind of shocking.

18:43All the directions that it has, has taken us down. We're now at about 12 o'clock central time. We're about an hour and a half now since the judge gave Reddington about an hour to go and get that. Okay. I mean, as you do that. So the geriot, yeah, put her in a posh facility. All right, Jerry. So let's explore that. You say posh facility. So you think it's a posh facility. Did you do the research on where she actually is right now and where she'd be housed? No, you didn't because if you look it up, it's not a posh facility. So it's, it's, when people make a statement that is completely pulled out of your ass, do some research before you put it out there because that is not the way it works. And if you think it's, so here's what you do before you open the mouth, open the brain and say yourself, all right, I think she's going to be saying a posh facility. Let me take a look at what that is. Let me actually do like five seconds here, what you do, just put in the

19:48Google machine where she housed right now. And you're going to hear it's like, often, never said this the other day. Oh, the system of care that she'd get if she's put in a gen pop that she'd get the psychiatric care that they have because Massachusetts is really good. So you know, say, well, Jen, you made a fair point before I open my mouth. Let me research this for the second time because I already did it. And she is full of shit because they are that facility that they have is understaffed, undermaned and is underfunded. So she, so your posh facility, what do you think it is that it's seriously when you say posh facility, define exactly what that means. You think she's there having, having cookies and milk and tea all day long? What would all go? Yoga, go, yoga. Really sane people that you are this the reality check is so far as you. And I'm not piling on you as it's it's it's it's it's it's the typically what people do on this is they come up with a wild ass congestory called a wag wild ass guess and they throw it out to the ethernet and then people grab onto that. So yeah, that's why we don't want her to be found not

20:51criminally responsible because she's going to be in a posh facility. No, really, you're foolish shit. Well, there's so much of it. I heard I heard I heard this and it's like the first when I hear that I'm like, Oh God. Where did you hear it from? I don't know. No, like, where did like, where is this from? Where are you getting? And I don't know, I've really been I've been kind of amazed by talking with various folks about this case. A lot of people seemingly very invested having very little in terms of facts in their toolbox when talking about it. I mean, it's a great case to talk about in terms of trying to understand and for a thought exercise. But you can only, you know, you only play the game if you got the parts, you know, you don't go to them and play bring out the monopoly board and go, well, we got no pieces and no money. You know, I mean, well, you can't really play the game then that's not going to work out. And now compare it to Gypsy Rose. Yeah, that's a real close comparison. That's really good. Yeah, the comparisons too have been really kind of wild. That have shown up.

21:58The only two miss Maldon. The only comparison that I mean, I mean, it's the comparison I made early on. And I'm going to share this in case folks have not seen it. Here, I think this is a fairly accurate comparison to what we've seen. Massachusetts, where history still comes alive. Looking for a place where the authorities don't let science get in the way of a good story, you'll feel right at home. Since 1692, Massachusetts has been the nation's leader in skipping the facts and going straight to the verdict. 13 medications in four months, a psychiatric hospital stay, a journal full of cries for help. Doesn't matter. If we can't understand it, you must have planned it. It's not a bug. It's a tradition. My great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather helped red sailum of

23:01its witches. Every single day I carry on that fight. Back then, we called them witches. Now we just call them Lindsey Clancy. Either way, we get the job done. And while you're here, meet the locals. Our online community is home to some of the most dedicated investigators in the country. They don't need medical records. They don't need a degree. They watched a 45 second video and they just know. The husband, suspicious, was he at CVS? Sure. And he called 911 screaming technically. But does that feel right? Here in Massachusetts, we don't let details get in the way of a perfectly good theory. You'll find people who've already solved the case the actual jury hasn't finished hearing yet. That's not arrogance. That's efficiency. And really, why would you waste time understanding most part of psychosis? You could just decide she's evil and get on with your day.

24:04Massachusetts, where we've been wrong about women for over 300 years and never been more confident. Visit soon. Stay as long as you like. Just don't get sick. Around here, a breakdown, and a broomstick are still the same thing. Good to put out cherries and pieces right before the Labor Day holiday weekend. As you're playing that again, so here's something that Jen brought up the other day. I think I gave a lot of thought to a lot of other states that don't have, there's like four I think that don't actually have the defense that you can use for criminally insane or not guilt by reason. Sandy slash criminally culpable. What they do is they got rid of that defense and what they use is they use all these things in these facts and that has presented during this case as

25:05mitigation for where you're going to serve your term. I'd be fine with that too. Again, I'm focused on the outcome. I don't care how you get there. I'm not all I do because I think part of this is also the mental health system that failed or that got us to this point obviously. But that part needs to be fixed and I think that's what this is good education for. However, she gets into that facility so she can be treated so we can learn from this so we cannot let this happen again. That's fine with me too because again, if this happened in one of those other states, we wouldn't be having this conversation which I know everyone says this is not, you know, the mental health system is not on trial, but it's certainly the cause of it. I just want to let you guys know that they're giving Reddington a little bit more time and I think they're going to take the lunch break and all that and then come back. So just so you're aware. Okay, so he's got some more time. So this is probably not going to be wrapping up anytime. Immediately soon. Okay. All right. So I mean, I wonder, I mean, look at the end of the day, this is, this is, I mean, the

26:09summons future on the line. I thought it was kind of interesting earlier where it was said, you want them to stay into the weekend or come back on, it's like, what we are talking about the future existence of a human being. That's what I was thinking, Tony, because I think the judge said you want them to come back tomorrow and he's stopping. Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did. And I think Reddington was going to, but ready to go after him on that. You know, I know. Jerry wants to deliver my guest room all because I'm standing on the fact that she needs help behind bars and also she's putting it inside and you just stay in my guest room. What? He's like, like the comment. I just what, like, why? I don't know. I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, it'll be interesting to see where this goes. Who knows, but I mean, yeah, I mean, if there's grounds to figure this out and wrap this up, yes, it's inconvenient, as it might be to run this into the weekend, to run this into Tuesday. It would probably be more beneficial than another two,

27:15three year ramp up to another trial and all of the time and all of the effort and all of the money and all the emotional, all of that energy is being spent. If it's going to intrude a little bit into the weekend, okay. Here's one. Cheers. I wish we had Bob on the ask and I don't know this off the top of my head. I'm wondering that during this time that that, um, Reddington got by asking for this stay, can the jury, can that one jury flip his mind during that time period? And they come back unanimous from it. If they're, I mean, I don't know. I'd just be curious whether that's a done deal that they came back that they're deadlocked or whether this extra time might give them time to, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know the answer. I don't know that they're technically deliberating at this moment, but they're, they're somewhere, you know, they're, they're, they're somewhere, uh, but released. Are they using that time to deliberate? I don't know the answer to that question. Uh, we will definitely be getting answers later in the day.

28:17If there is a verdict, we'll bring it to you here. Uh, and if not, well, you know, then we obviously continue to follow this, uh, to wherever it may lead. But for right now, I think we're going to wrap up the, uh, the coverage and fascinating conversations throughout the day, going to be dropping with Eric Fattis and others, so be sure to, uh, to check that out. Robin Drake, uh, we're trying to have the ice special agent as always. Thank you for, for being here and giving us your insight, your master class. It's available. Tell us about that. Yeah. If you want more behavioral assessment stuff and learn how to become the person that people trust, check out masterclass, go to masterclass.com, backslash, Robin Drake. And, uh, thanks very much. All right. Check it out. Uh, we'll keep watching until next time for Robin and Todd. I'm Tony. We'll talk again real soon. Peace.

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