My Bonus Discussion with Vusi Thembekwayo!

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2:09Welcome to Karen Hunter's Awesome. I am Karen Hunter and I get to sit and talk with some amazing human beings who are saying some things, but also doing some things that I think you should know about this gentleman. I've been following him for several years. I'm watching him grow and develop his name as Voussi Timbic Wio. He is a South African entrepreneur. He's an investor. He's a public speaker. But he's a man that thinks deeply and reads a lot and he is a mover. He's somebody that's moving and shaking. So I had to sit down with him. We talked for about an hour and a half. Part of that, we played on serious XM where I host a radio show Monday through Friday, 3 to 6 pm. We played it on Labor Day. This was a bonus portion of that interview where we talked about money and we talked about the future of the world. I love talking with smart people and he's smart people. Let me know what you think afterwards though. You can hit me up at KarenHunterShow.com.

3:09Hit the contact page, leave me an email, but I want you to take a listen to this man because he is saying some things. So Voussi, I've been reading because I read a lot. I'm an investor. I heard something that the dollar might end up being destabilized at a point where $1 will be worth like $0.10. Or $100 will be worth like $0.10. Yeah, like it's the bond market. What does that look like? Well, it looks like Germany before the Nazis came to power. It's not been unusual. The thing that God could doppy killed was that he wanted to have an African currency that would allow for Africans to buy and sell with each other without... Yes, and because he had the power to do that, to make the dollar not the currency used with oil. That was a problem. Iran now, we don't step in it. The hornet's nest has been hit. We're learning some things. Canada is like, oh yeah, we don't need to trade with you. We have all these other countries and China is sitting near smoke and a cigarette.

4:09And I'm like, this is not going to end well for my America economically, but as a black person in America, I can't divorce myself from a system that I'm also heavily invested in just because this is where I stake my claim. You're over there in South Africa or you're in South Africa. How do you see the global economy and where the opportunities or how should we be looking at it? So, you know, for context, we as a firm, we are obviously in South Africa, we're in Nigeria, we're in the US. And we've just set up an office now in the Caribbean. And then we have a small office in the Middle East and in Dubai. So, I spend a lot of time looking at what's happening because it's kind of my job really is to understand what's happening in the rest of the world, but also to understand what the push and pull factors are. And I think there are a few things to say on this. The first is that the United States today for for better or for worse is exhibiting all of the signs of an empire in decline.

5:12And that's not a that's not a Vussy opinion. That is a just a historical fact. Going study empires and decline and you'll realize that what the United States is doing today, even in terms of its policy posture, in particular of late, is its exhibiting signs of an empire in decline. That's the first. The second, I think, major theme is it's pretty clear we're at the end of a unipolar world. The unipolar world kind of comes into being immediately after the Second World War. The United States together with Europe, craft the martial plan to rebuild the destruction of infrastructure that had been in Europe. And for a period of what you could argue is close on a century, the United States dominated the world as a unipolar power. Now, some people of course talk about the fall of the Iron Curtain in communist Russian and Germany, but be that as it may. We've had about a century of the United States being the malt that the dominant power. And what you're seeing now is the United States existing in a context where that position as a dominant power is no longer not just guaranteed, but it's also not a fate of complete.

6:19There are other nations in the world who are making a contestation for that position. And amongst the issues that are driving those nations, making a contestation for that position is just history and cycles. The United States has had, it's 150 years, at the top of the economic pile of the world. And if you read history, that's kind of how long it takes. It was the same for the Spanish Empire, same for the British Empire, same for the Dutch Empire. This is just the cycle of things. The question for the United States becomes, does she want to exist as a single empire that takes to the rest of the world, read here, sanctions, people that they don't like, etc. etc. Or does she want to be the moral authority around which the rest of the world can congregate? And if I don't have a privilege if you want this. Let me pause. She can no longer be that with an adjudicated sex offender and convicted felon as its leader. She cannot be the moral authority with Epstein Island looming.

7:21She cannot be that with all of the corruption, the cryptocurrency and all of the grifting that's going on. She can't be that with the sneakers, the stakes, the ties, the bankruptcies. She can't be that with the airplane from cutter and the money from Saudi Arabia. She cannot be the moral authority, Kashoggi. She cannot. So that's done. Let's put that over there. And I think they're in lies the actual real issue. What's the real issue here? The real issue is that, prior to this particular administration, the administrations that preceded it had, at the very least, the one could argue, the veneer of moral authority and decency. They had the statement, the nature of posturing as that. And so, for those administrations, if they pointed a finger at another regime and another part of the world and said, bad people, the world kind of just took that as a fact.

8:26It was like, well, if they say, you're all bad, we trust their moral judgment, you must be bad. Now, the world is going, time out, all of the things you said will corrupt what other nations are doing them. You're kind of doing them now. There's a friend of mine on X who runs this trail. And the trail is, the problem with Africa is corruption, they said. And all she does is she just extracts the stories that you're talking about, posts them and says, the problem with Africa is corruption, they said. Then underneath that, you'll see a headline about Qatar donating an airline. And what she's actually saying is, could you imagine if this was an African leader somewhere, taking an airline from another nation's state to an African leader somewhere, sending off their child to go in own assets. I mean, just a latest story about, I think it's Kazakhstan or one of these countries that came to the U ever since it said, hey, we've got this mining opportunity, we want to see if we can do business with you. And then suddenly, that same company that has been tattered for these mining rights is doing a shareholding transactions where the family associated, it's just like Albania.

9:29It was Albania. So I think what's actually happened here is the dissonance that I think we're seeing and the reason you're seeing those boxes because the emperor is just naked now. And now the emperor is not even pretending to have clothes on the emperor's world. You know I'm naked. That's just so that's the global macro context. Add to this that the Middle East over the past 20 years has spent a lot of time doing three things. The first was convincing the world that it exists as a modern set of states. The second was convincing the world that it exists as a modern set of states, which could be an attractive investment destination. And the third was convincing the world that it has now fully connected itself to the rest of the Western world. And what we've seen with this conflict is not true that these ethnic fault lines that have existed in the Middle East, which ethnic fault lines have had wars taking place for over 200 years, those fault lines are still very much real.

10:37So if you're thinking about doing, you know, and I said we have an office in Dubai, right? So if you're thinking about doing an investment vehicle somewhere in the Middle East, that now factors into your calculus about how you're thinking about where am I invested, what am I investing in? The real estate market in that particular region has just, it's through the flow right now because the demand that was coming predominantly but not exclusively from India and China is through the flow because of the war that's been taking place. So many people are going, wait a minute. So that's not the Havana that it used to be Europe has so many deeply, like deep issues that Europe is at least 50 years away from coming around and agreeing on what even what is Europe and what does Europe of the future look like? Can I can I just jump in with that? You bringing it up, but you have nations, which are always like, yeah, get out. And you don't get to take anything with you. I've always said, you know, France was bolstered by forcing Haiti to pay reparations, right? So you're getting money from a country that overthrew your tyranny and then forced them to pay until recently every year.

11:41So you don't really have an economy outside of the brutality, right? And we see great Britain. I don't know what it does, you know, other than feet like that parasite that I was talking about. Off of other spaces. And so now to your point, it's not just this emperor doesn't have any clothes. The entire system has been exposed to me to be one of coming in destroying, blaming the people, extracting all of the goods, calling it an ishol while you extract. It can't be an ishold and a pot of gold at the same time. These two things cannot. It cannot be. So somebody's lying. And now we're like smart enough because there's no more, you know, the internet has given us access to everything. We now see you're lying and everybody sees it and people are making different choices, which I'm happy about. But I don't know if it's sustainable because this war is an opportunity. Do you know what I'm saying? This war is an opportunity for a lot of horrible things, especially when you have horrible people with the nuclear codes. So I'm concerned. I'm concerned because they don't care. And this was a burning question. I interviewed Steve Bannon before Trump was elected. And he had a, you know, it's Brexit.

12:51Yeah, he was part of series that he was part of Breitbart, you know, who's part of the family. So you know, we had a discussion about it. And his vision was global, you know, it was a global takeover and dismantling of governments to have kind of this one world, one world operating system. Yeah. And it looks like it's happening when we look at Le Pen and France and all these other places, fascism is rising in places that you wouldn't expect like Germany. And you're saying, okay, what's the actual, because they inserted Trump. They inserted, they wanted him here to do what exactly what he's doing. How does that play to someone like you as you're watching this, you know, kind of unfold. How does that play with you that this might be on the purpose? So what I would add, I mean, so the way that I kind of have to, the way that I exist in the world and I make sense of the world is I'm very clear on what is in my bucket of controllables and what is not.

13:54And so all of these are actually, these are these are the realities of the world today. But ultimately to every single person listening to this, what you've got to download is what's in my bucket of controllables, right. And so for us, having clarity over what is in our bucket of controllables, why do we exist as a firm? What's our strategy? Who do we want to work with? And what value do we deliver that is so unique that regardless of whether or not you might like who we are, you have to work with us anyway. That's the stuff that for me, I go, this is in my bucket of controllables. These macro factors affects their realities. We exist within them. Beyond that, we have to think about what is it that we can do right now that is practical and there are several things there. The first is, it's really important for us to begin to publish and publish more. This is why the work you do is so important. We can't be quiet. Whatever loud, haily you have, you have to use it, whether it's a microphone or a book or a newsletter or you have to publish to the world what you're seeing of the world.

15:02And what I'm saying there is you have the right and not only the right but the responsibility not to be quiet, because the system requires of your silence for its continuance. And the only thing worse than a coerced silence is a self-enforced one. A lot of us go, well, I have my little cup of coffee here and Fabio, for me to say anything, somebody might take that. And so do we then self-regulate and we self-silence and we self-sensor. So wherever you are, take the time and opportunity to publish. Take the time and opportunity to share your thoughts, share your thinking and disseminate those ideas. That's the first. The second is no matter where you are, no matter what you do, be the big. Just be unquestionable, be next level. Just be next level. I was reading two books at the same time. This incredible book that I recommend to everybody listening now called The Color of Law, which talks about the Jim Crow era and how the law was...

16:02This blew me away when I realized, hold on, the societal, systemic and spatial planning of the United States today was planned and regulated. I was just like, wow, because some of the areas I travel when I'm there, I'm like, oh, so how does that work? And why is that there? And how did that get there? And suddenly I was like, oh, so this was planned the whole time. But I got that from reading the book. The second was I just read Michelle Obama's Becoming. That was a great read. And I mentioned those books because in the reading of them, I was trying to uncover and read kind of like the experience in the stories, etc. But what you realize is the level of detail, the quality of work, the excellence of the work, is unquestionable. So the responsibility we have, because we're coming from, you know, what do they say? You've got to work twice as hard to get half as much credit. We have to be excellent at everything that we do. And so I think that's the kind of like the second coping mechanism. And then the third coping mechanism is to find community, communities, everything. So we've got to reach each other, find each other, elevate each other, protect each other. And I always say to members of our community, even when one of us makes a mistake, if it's a good earnest mistake, criticize privately, praise publicly.

17:17Right. So there's absolutely never a time and a point when we should be dragging each other down publicly. And I think that we have a lot of work to do in particular on the score of that last one. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a lot of healing. There's a lot of hurt. There's a lot of hurt. And it's like if you can't actually exact your frustration on the person is doing it, you're going to hurt the ones you love. That's right. You've got to always hurt the ones you love. So we got to do a better job of that. The world is transforming faster than ever. And standing still isn't an option. At Oppenheimer, we're working at the forefront of the innovation economy to invest where progress begins, finding opportunities that build and protect wealth for individuals and institutions that want to seat at the edge of tomorrow. Put the power of Oppenheimer thinking to work for you. Wealth management, capital markets, investment banking.

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19:17But I want to preserve my wealth. I want to be here 120 years. I want 99 year old Karen to not have to worry about anything. If this economy collapses, where should I be looking? Yeah, so the first is, whoo, let me just preface this by saying this, this absolutely is not financial advice. You definitely talk to somebody who is qualified and understands, you know, your world and can frame it for you. But I can give some general principles. The first general principle is that where in the state of life you are dictates what you'll put for your construction should look like. But folio construction effectively is the set of assets that you have exposure to, which assets create wealth for you. Right. So whether it's a property that you're living in or renting and or gold that you might have bought or a share of a company, all of these are assets and these assets together combined make up your portfolio. This particular portfolio is what will determine what your financial, what your financial health looks like. So, so you want to make sure that the stage you're at is reflected in what you put for your looks like for the younger people in.

20:25And who can still, I was, you know, 18, 9, you know, and you can do kind of two jobs or you can have one job and then a side hustle and all of that type of stuff. What you want to do is you want to take risks. You want to be more aggressive in your investments. You want access to the assets that have the opportunity to yield a higher, a to give you a higher yield. But of course the delta in often in those in those assets also means that the downside risk is a little bit higher. So you talk it. You talk it. 20 example. Okay. 20 something year old is buying Bitcoin. So I. 20 something. If you were in your 20s, would you be. For sure. Okay. Sure. All right. Yeah. For sure. And I'm and I'm if I'm in my 20s, I'm buying Bitcoin. If for no other reason, other than just the arbitrage opportunity, it was close. I think it was $100,000 at some point. It's not about 17,000 was so it's not it's not inconceivable that you can buy at one price point in a six months or 12 months time.

21:26The price has changed by 1015% and you can sell and earn a 1015% yield. Right. So, but but you were early enough that if it goes from 70 to slightly lower than 70 that you have, you can kind of work back. Whatever you would have lost him in that. But if I'm in my I'm in my 40s now and you know, I'm 41 now. That's hard for me to like download. But I'm now I'm thinking a lot more about how do I preserve what we've built. Right. So my mind. That's a preservation stage. So what I say is, you know, kind of 20s to 40s is accumulation. And and for some people, even beyond 40s, it's still a accumulation, kind of 40s to world's like 50s, mid 50s is still very much the state of accumulation. But beyond the state of accumulation is preservation and preservation means you've got to get access to stable assets that are defensive assets that will preserve your wealth rather than give you high yields. So these might look like property for instance is good at this gold is a fairly good. Not the Middle East, not the Middle East property places that won't be bombed.

22:29So those are those are those are great to kind of look at. And then of course, and then of course, if you're if you're invested in which I highly recommend for people to do. Yeah, not financial advice, but my own experience has been if you can get exposure to equity assets. So these are company shares, which equity assets are going to pay out some sort of dividends. And that dividends flows of a period of time, you should absolutely be doing this. And for those of you listening to this in the US, you've got 401K's many of those 401K's of exposure to those equity assets anyway. So you should absolutely be doing this as a firm. We no longer do that early stage startup stage. We just don't think we are we stopped doing that many years ago. We just don't think what were particularly gifted at this. What we're really focused on now is what we call mid market businesses that are that are that are in the real economy. So this is the business that 50 years ago, would have been the butcher the baker the candlestick maker. And now it's a conglomerate of butchers or bakers or candlestick makers, right. So these are industrial assets, manufacturing businesses that are in the real economy, paying real wages to real people.

23:32And that's because of the context of where I'm at in the context of the continent where we are investing and where we are creating wealth for our investors and our clients and ourselves, because we are a venture partners model in that context. The real wealth is in funding the person who's taking that 20 year old manufacturing plant and wants to double it in its capacity. That's where the real wealth is. So you know, we. I was saying to somebody the other day, the the the revenue today of Claude, which is a five or six year old business is the GDP of some countries in the continent of Africa. So for us, the economic opportunity is to invest into real assets, but to up back to the into the people who are listening to this. The point about it is remember the three golden rules. First golden rule is when given the choice between being an investor, not being an investor, be an investor. Right. So you've got to be in the ring. This is actually important. That's the first golden rule. The second golden rule is diversified diversified diversified. So make sure that you have more access to more than one asset class.

24:36And then the third golden rule is be patient, take time, right. The the eighth wonder of the world is compounding. So don't try to time the market, rather than spend time in the market, right. Just just spend time in the market, get an early by the asset, leave it, let it mature. And unless it's absolutely necessary, you can kind of walk back or deconstruct some of those positions. But it's been my experience that that's a solid strategy for us to to preserve and to protect wealth. And I've got to add one last one, if you allow me, which is please make sure that you're that your legacy is protected is way too many of us. Karen, as you know, who don't have wheels in place, who don't have trusts in place. And so we we possibly in our assets, there isn't a document that speaks to how those assets should be distributed. Or we pass away and there isn't even a structure that protects those assets in the entrepreneurs were invested in. We now make it a precondition. If we're coming into a business and we're getting involved, we're sitting with you to look at what does the wealth that you're creating look like for you.

25:36And so for some of our clients and some of our investee companies, we're setting up offshore trusts where some of the capital gains and yield is moving offshore so they can get exposure to other assets. We're doing different things because for us, we just issued two terms sheets this past quarter to two black female owned businesses, which are turning over in the region of about $330 million. And in the United States or on the continent in United States. No, no, no, the businesses are in the continent. The businesses are in the continent. But the I was dollarizing the numbers for the audience. So $30 million. We did a US deal in first quarter this year, which was a fantastic deal. Again, infected was a couple of black couple operating in the pharmaceutical retail pharmaceutical space with a great business, absolutely great business and the opportunity for them to scale and grow. And so in our business, we're not doing one of two things partnering with these really economy businesses in the continent, helping them scale and grow and putting capital in.

26:36And the second thing we're doing is we're building what we call the middle passage to the global exchange. So we're working with a lot of entrepreneurs of color in the continent and bringing them to in the US in particular and giving them opportunities to come into the continent. And other is investors and all partners and all people building businesses here. In fact, now in October, I've got a group coming in from the US that's going to be traveling in to come and meet entrepreneurs here and meet and talk and discuss because building together that black community and circulating that black dollar. That has to be the project of our generation. Yes, yes, yes, all right, you and I have to talk about that because I think that's important and I can help magnify those messages and also find you more people to invest in before I let you go, you just offhandedly said, you know, and then my father was murdered and I said, wait, what? How many to make why you grew up in your family? You're one of how many children?

27:36I'm a middle child. That's complicated. Okay, okay, yeah, let me give you this. Let me give you the simple. Let me give you the simple complex truth. So there are three of us. So my parents, I'm the middle child. I have an older sister and a younger brother. But my mother's oldest sister passed away when her children or infant children and so she took them in. Okay, so I actually, I'm in a house in a house. And also with a lot of children. Okay, so your dad was a martial artist? Yeah, my dad started doing a formal martial arts from Okinawa, a small island just off the coast of Japan called Kukushin when he was in his high school life and then he grew up doing it. And so when I became a young boy and my dad was like, okay, so it's time for you to put on the key and start and start kicking and punching and and I took to it and I absolutely loved it. And what, so how did he get murdered? Who, who did this? Yeah, so 1998, 14th of February Valentine's Day was a Saturday. My grandmother was having her 60th birthday and there was a family gathering at my grandmother's house.

28:44At that time, my grandparents, my paternal grandparents had separated, hadn't yet kind of legally divorced, but they had separated. And so during kind of my grandmother's gathering, they had run out of bed, run out of drinks and juice, et cetera. And my dad took a walk down to what we, South Africa, close Pazashops, but these are like small general kind of dealer shops and to go and buy some more of the stuff that the family needed. And when he arrived there, he was attacked by what, what we're told was, you know, four guys who were armed. And my dad himself was armed, I should tell you, in fact, my dad had gotten his gun about a month prior to his murder. So my dad had, you know, he was armed and he had a phone and in South Africa at the time, it's still the case in some parts in some instances today. But at the time, if you had a cell phone in the late 1990s, boy, you were, you know, because these were not, these were not like readily available, easy to buy and certainly not, you be quite a sleigh affordable for a lot of people.

29:47And so they attacked my dad and tried to rob him and he fought back and he was, you know, and because my dad could fight, he fought them. But just outside, just outside this like general dealer store, which is fairly narrow. I actually went and I went to see it. But just outside this like general dealer store, which was fairly narrow with a single entry doorway, was stood one of the salons who were robbing my father. And so as my dad was, you know, kind of fighting his fellow robbers, they shot him and they shot him nine times. And he hadn't died immediately. He shot him and then they took his phone and his gun and they ran away and he walked some distance to try to get back to my grandmother's. And he eventually collapsed kind of, you know, quarter of the way there. And my father was the oldest of 11 kids. And of all of the 11 kids, the only surviving one is was the youngest in the group, my aunt, Betty, who is the only surviving one.

30:54And as my father was collapsing, she was the one who then ran to him and kind of caught him in her hands. And we lost him. We lost him then. So, so, yeah, difficult. For sure, life changing character forming. It nothing, nothing in the, the aren't words in the length of the breath of the English language that I can use to describe what, what that was. And of course, you know, today I have my oldest son is 16 and a few months in two months, in fact. And I'll set the other thing, the other day thinking like, I lost my dad at 13. And so I had to learn how to be a man by other being close enough to other men or observing others because for a young man at that age, we're modeling character, we're modeling behavior, we're modeling priorities.

31:58You know, you're kind of coming out of your infant stage and you're in that middle bridge of forming your manhood. And so, yeah, that's how we lost him. How has his death, and I'm so incredibly sorry, that loss for some, it breaks us, it apparently didn't break you. But how does your dad sit with you every day? How does he show up in your life today? Yeah, so it's a good question. I think, you know, my, my, my father used to say, look, smart son intelligent don't embarrass me. Those, those, those always stick. Smart son, so I think how I show up in the world is very much a function of how my father taught me what showing up in the world as a good man is.

33:07And my dad was very, very clear on, you know, what he's to call a good man, like, you know, and so sometimes even today, when I've either got to make a difficult decision or were, were involved in something with an odds of stacked against us. And my default kind of guiding principle is in these set of circumstances, what would a good man do? And so, earlier you asked, you know, it will profit me at this stage in my life to just pretend I don't see the things I see and be quiet, but a good man wouldn't do that. So I don't know how to do this. So, so I'd like to think that, I'd like to think that it's a little bit of this. So, man, voosie, tempered, why oh, what was your dad's name? What is your dad's name? Vosie. Okay, so we say his name, we keep him with us. Thank you for listening. And if you want to stay in contact, follow me at Karen Hunter Show.com, leave me a comment.

34:10I so appreciate the support and I do love you. That's an actual word. See you next time. This is brought to you by Colgate Total Active Prevention. Some routines make perfect sense, like securing your seatbelt before driving, just as buckling up helps prevent injury. Using Colgate Total Helps prevent oral health problems like cavities and gingivitis before they start. So put yourself in the driver's seat of your oral health and prevent problems before they start with Colgate Total Active Prevention, available at a retailer near you. Something amazing is happening. This agency is experiencing a cyber attack, but no one is panicking. That's because CDW government secured, optimized, and future-proofed their data with the Dell Technologies Power Store solution.

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